Chapter C: A. Fife, sworn with uplifted hand (14)

A. No, sir; I did not. I thought those gentlemen had the matter in their own hands, and didn't want any advice from me; and about daylight, or thereabouts, I came down town, and somewhere in the neighborhood of seven o'clock, or thereabouts, it might have been a little after seven--might have been half an hour, but I just name that at random, approximate it--I received a telegraphic dispatch from the Twelfth ward station that the soldiers were on Penn avenue, marching past the Twelfth ward station-house. That struck me that it was an admirable strategic movement. I thought they had come off the railroad property with their full strength, five hundred or six hundred strong, to march through the streets, to intimidate the crowd, and I was highly delighted at that idea, and I requested Mr. Davis to go and get a buggy that we might go up and witness the effect of it. He came with the buggy, and we both started out, and after we got a considerable distance up town, in the neighborhood of the Twelfth ward, I received information that these men were retreating from the city--six hundred armed men. It sent my heart down about my thighs. I could not understand it. I could not believe it. Then the idea struck me that these men were not retreating from the city, but they were following a line of march by which they had two roads to go to East Liberty. I thought they were going either one of those two roads to join the forces out there, and possibly to come in together. When I got as far as the car stables, in Lawrenceville, just about Forty-second street, I think, I bethought myself it was hardly worth while to make that horse pull two hundred and ten pounds unnecessarily, and I stopped the buggy and got out. I told Mr. Davis to go on after the troops, and not to return until he knew where they had gone to. They might have gone by Stanton avenue to East Liberty, from the upper side of the cemetery, or they might have gone by the Morning side road up to the Sharpsburg bridge. I told him to go on, and not give it up until he could locate them, and then to come back to the Twelfth ward station-house, and report to me, and I then got in a street car at the car stables and came down to the Twelfth ward station-house. Then I telegraphed down to the central station to detain all the police that were there, and send them to the Twelfth ward, and I got tired waiting on Mr. Davis, and knowing that the police committee was to meet, I went over to where the firemen were at work, for the purpose of seeing the chief engineer, and concert with him some plan of action by which I could assist them. I could not find the chief engineer, high nor low. I asked the firemen where he was, and they didn't know, and I took that the work upon the fire--this was not on the railroad property, but on the opposite side of Liberty street where they were at work. I thought the work was ineffective, and I spoke to the firemen about it, and they told me the reason of it was that the water in the basin was low. I thought that a little strange, because it was a rule with the water department, with which I had been connected a great many years, to always have it full on Sunday, but I determined to see about that. Failing to see the chief engineer, I could not waste my time in hunting him, and I came down town. On my way down, I met the superintendent of the water-works, and I says to him, "Jim, the firemen complain they cannot work effectively up in the Twelfth ward, because there is no water in the basin," I think that is the way I put it to him. Says he "I think they are mistaken; the basin is full of water." I think it was at Eleventh street I met him. I came down to the central station, and, on the pavement, I met the secretary of the fire commission, Mr. Case. I says to him, "Frank, the firemen tell me that there is no water in the basin"--I meant a small quantity of water in the basin--"I saw Jim Atkinson on my way down, and he tells me the basin is full. You take my buggy at once, and go up and tell them that the basin is full, that they need not be afraid of the supply of water, and you leave the buggy at Rosewell's stables." He departed, and I suppose gave my message.

Q. What time did the fire commence on Saturday night?

A. It is a guess with me, but I think it must have been about eleven o'clock. I don't think I am far wrong.

Q. You stayed there during the night?

A. Yes; I was going through the crowd during the whole night.

Q. When you got fifty policemen, did you make any effort with those policemen to drive the crowd from the cars that were burning?

A. No, sir; I did not.

Q. Your efforts were simply confined to arresting men that were carrying off plunder?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Your policemen armed?

A. Some are and some are not.

Q. They are all armed with maces, I suppose?

A. Yes; they all have maces.

Q. Why didn't you make some effort to stop the burning?

A. Because, in my judgment, it could not be done.

Q. How many men would it have taken to have stopped that that night?

A. Lord knows! I can't tell. I think it would have taken a good many. Near a thousand men cooped themselves up in some houses, and cooped all those men up in those houses after having done the firing. It was yielding to the mob. It was just saying plainly, that the mob was stronger than the soldiers, and that forty or fifty policemen, who had never been in a disturbance of this nature or kind, would simply have been suicidal?

Q. After coming to the central station, Sunday morning, did you return again?

A. Yes, sir; I did.

Q. What hour?

A. That I could not tell you. As I told you before, I took no note of time. It was after I had seen the police committee, and had talked with some of the citizens, with regard to a citizens' meeting, I went up on.

Q. During the day, on Sunday, how many policemen had you in the vicinity of the riot?

A. That I can't tell. I did not suppose, that all told, so far as I could guess or know, there were not more than thirty or forty.

Q. Did you make any demand to recruit your police--demand upon men to serve on the police?

A. That had been done by advertisement in the Sunday morning papers, by the chief of police?

Q. Did you issue an order calling on men, demanding them to join your police force?

A. Which, on Sunday?

Q. At any time?

A. Nothing, except that on Saturday morning for the police.

Q. It was in the shape of a request, was it not?

A. Yes; it was an order.

Q. It was not a command such as would be a command under the laws of the Commonwealth?

A. I don't think it was. I didn't see it. I didn't look for it.

Q. It was placed in the papers by your clerk?

A. By the chief of police.

Q. When you went to the scene of the riot on Saturday night, did you use efforts yourself to suppress the riot or stop it?

A. I went into the crowd and talked with them, but I might as well have talked to the moon.

Q. Who did you talk with?

A. There were several that I talked to that I did not know. I only met one man that I did know, and he had been a lieutenant of police.

Q. He was engaged in rioting?

A. He was there with the crowd and very muddled.

Q. How long before that had he been lieutenant of police?

A. He had been lieutenant of police, I suppose, as near as I can judge, some three weeks before.

Q. And discharged under the order discharging the day force?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you meet any other persons that had been members of the police force?

A. No; not in that position?

Q. What replies did you get from the men when admonishing them to desist?

A. Everybody was filled with the idea that the troops the citizens causelessly, and that had excited the indignation and made men wild. It was a fearful sentiment on Saturday night.

Q. I understood you to state that the reason why you did not go to the Twelfth ward during the Friday and Saturday before, was that you had been superseded by the military?

A. Yes; and because I was perfectly satisfied that the influence that controlled would be disastrous, and that I could not prevent it, and I was not going to permit myself to be compromised by it.

Q. You did go to the scene on Saturday night?

A. I did.

Q. Or rather on Sunday?

A. I did.

Q. Had you gone there on Thursday, or Friday, or Saturday morning, and made use of the police that you had under your command, could you not have prevented the disturbance?

A. Permit me to say again that it was impossible for me to have any connection with the men who had charge of that, because I could not control them. They are men that would not listen to me, and that I could have no influence with.

Q. Whom do you refer to?

A. I refer to the leading officers of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company.

Q. You had control of your police force, hadn't you?

A. I had.

Q. You have control of the affairs of the city.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the organization of the police?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You could have control of the force--you are the peace officer of the city?

A. Yes, sir; and there is the sheriff.

Q. Why did not you then assert your rights as peace officer?

A. Because I recognized the fact that I have no right to come in conflict with the sheriff and the military. I was utterly hostile to their movements and to their plan of operations, and I felt satisfied that it could have no other end than the end that was reached. I, surely, under those circumstances, would have been of no more use than a painted ship upon a painted sea. They would not listen to me.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Did you go to them and talk with them, or did you try and see whether you could cooperate with them in any manner?

A. No, sir; I knew the men. That was enough for me.

Q. Do I understand you to say that there was an antagonism between you and the sheriff of the county?

A. It could not be otherwise in this matter, because they had adopted a plan of action that I could have nothing at all to do with.

Q. Were you called on first by the railroad officials?

A. Yes; and gave them all they wanted, and gave them so many men--I will prove to you that they said they didn't want them.

Q. You were asked to go to the scene of the disturbance?

A. Yes; we have talked that matter over several times.

Q. Did you receive any communication from Mr. Scott, the solicitor of the road, on Thursday?

A. I did not.

Q. On Friday?

A. I did not.

Q. Did he make a request to you that you would order the saloons of the city closed?

A. I got a document on Saturday afternoon--I don't know, some time on Saturday it was, according to my recollection--it was by Mr. Thaw, I think by Mr. McCullough, and I think by Mr. Quay, and I think by Mr. Latta, requesting me to request the saloons to be closed, which request, on my part, was complied with.

Q. At what time?

A. That I could not say. I had no right to compel the closing of them--none whatever. I could only request.

Q. You had a riot and disorder in the city then. Do I understand that you had no right to order the saloons closed?

A. No, sir; I have no right to order them closed, under any circumstances, except upon Sunday or upon election days. Then the laws forbid them to be open.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you have any knowledge of the disturbance, and the extent of the disturbance during Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, out in the vicinity of the Union depot, on the railroad?

A. I did not know of any disturbance occurring.

Q. During any of those days?

A. None of those days, except what I told you as having occurred on Thursday. I had reason to believe that there was no disturbance from Thursday afternoon until Saturday afternoon.

Q. Didn't you know of a large collection of people in that vicinity?

A. Oh, yes, sir. I knew they were coming there--went there to see the soldiers--what was going on. People went there as they would to a county fair or a boat race, to see what was to be seen. Men with their families, women with their children, even children in their arms, went there from curiosity.

Q. Don't you know that there was a large crowd there before the military arrived?

A. No, sir.

Q. No knowledge of that?

A. No knowledge of what we would call a large crowd. I know there was quite a crowd there on Thursday. I know from what I am told, there was a crowd there at the time of the alleged disturbance with Mr. Watt and Mr. McCall.

Q. Hadn't you been told by citizens and others, that there was a large crowd there--likely to be trouble?

A. No, sir.

Q. Hadn't any idea?

A. I had an idea that there was to be trouble, because when the military came out they were subject to the thousand contingencies that would produce disturbance.

Q. Had you any intimation of trouble before the military were ordered out?

A. As much as I told you occurred on Friday, after the arrest by the police of this man who was alleged to have struck Mr. Watt. Think there was no disturbance after that during the whole of Thursday night, and to Friday morning, when the police were dismissed.

Q. Did you go to any trouble to ascertain the extent of that disturbance, on the first disturbance on Thursday?

A. Of course, I knew the extent of it from what the police told me.

Q. You were shortly informed of what was going on--made all efforts necessary to ascertain?

A. It came to me without an effort.

Q. Didn't require any effort to ascertain?

A. No, sir; I inquired what going on, and ascertained what was going on.

Q. Didn't your police inform you that the mob had overpowered the police, and also the railroad authorities, on Thursday?

A. Why, no! they didn't overpower them. I proved that here. They were not overpowered.

Q. They had every control of their railroad and their rolling stock without interference?

A. I will prove it to you by the police.

Q. I want to know what you were informed of the situation of affairs--what you know of your own knowledge?

A. I was not there. I don't know anything of my own knowledge. I can tell you what can be proved by the police.

Q. I ask you the question, what reports you got from your officers?

A. That everything was quiet and peaceable after the arrest of McCall.

Q. Did you receive any reports from your officers on Friday, that everything was quiet?

A. On Friday morning I received word that the police had been dismissed by the Pennsylvania railroad men.

Q. Who informed you of that fact?

A. I can't tell you.

Q. An officer of your force?

A. I presume so; in fact it must have been; that state of facts I can prove here and demonstrate.

Q. Did you at any time deem it necessary to increase your force of police?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. But did you do so?

A. Done what I could to increase.

Q. To what extent did you increase your force?

A. It was increased upwards of one hundred men, by the order of the committee of public safety, and after I got about one hundred, their orders were that I should increase the force to three hundred, but I came to the conclusion that that number of men were not needed, and I didn't employ any more. I suppose we had altogether about two hundred and forty or two hundred and fifty men.

Q. Did you increase your police force before you were ordered to do so by the public committee?

A. Yes; to the extent of ordering the police who were unemployed to report to the city hall for duty on Sunday forenoon. A portion of them came, not many. They considered they had been very badly treated, and they did not care about risking their lives under those circumstances.

Q. Could you have demanded citizens to serve as police on your force?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did you do so?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you have all you needed?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why did not you make this demand?

A. Because I had no time to do it. My time was fully occupied. I had met several gentlemen in the morning, and they called a citizens' meeting for the forenoon, and I expected them to make arrangements to go out, in what we might call, in a non-legal way, in a posse, but instead of doing that they thought it more advisable to send a number of gentlemen up to address the crowd.

Q. Who thought so?

A. The meeting.

Q. Citizens' meeting?

A. Yes, sir; they were there and addressed the crowd from the upper end of the platform of the Union depot, but it was of no avail, talking was of no use. Then they were to have a meeting in the afternoon. I came down to that meeting and met the committee at the city hall, talked a little there, and then they adjourned to meet on Market street, and there was considerable talk. Doctor Donnelly was there, he was one of the spokesmen, and he talked there about having offered, with the permission of the mayor, a company. He is slightly mistaken as to having formed a company; it was I who formed it.

Q. A military company with arms?

A. No, sir; a company of citizens.

Q. Armed citizens?

A. They were not armed. They had nothing.

Q. You subsequently armed them, didn't you?

A. Yes, sir. To properly understand the spirit with which I was actuated, with permission of the committee, I will read two extracts, one from the _Post_ of Monday, and one from the _Gazette_ of Monday morning, these extracts are not literally reported, but to show the spirit that was there, and with permission of the committee, I will read them.

Q. Are they long?

A. No, sir; they are not long. This is from the _Post_ of Monday, July 23, 1877.

Q. An editorial?

A. A local report. This is the extract: "An enterprising individual here endeavored to throw cold water on the spirit of the meeting, by saying they needed a thousand men; but he was suppressed. Mayor McCarthy rushed to the stand, and said there was no use of any more fooling. 'Let all who wanted to save their city fall into line, and go at once to the mayor's office, and be sworn in as extra policemen. The fire was spreading, and the incendiaries were still at work, and we must act now.'" Then the reporter puts in this: "This suited the meeting, and a portion of the meeting formed in line, and, under head of the mayor, marched off." That is from the _Post_.

Q. Before you go any further, did you command that force?

A. I led them; went at their head. I will give you a history of that.

Q. As commander of them?

A. Yes; they were not going into action. There is a history about this, which I will give you after reading this. This is from the _Gazette_ of Monday, July 23, an extract: "There was now a loud call for the mayor, who was in the crowd. He stepped to the front, and said, 'The city is on fire. There is no time to be lost. I want every man, who is ready to help me, to go up here to join this band to go and put down incendiaries.' Mr. Henry Pilipps, junior, said, 'Let us go to the city hall at once, and be perfectly organized as a vigilance committee, and let the mayor swear his policemen in.' The mayor then said, 'I can swear them in now,' and suiting the action to the word, the mayor made his way to one end of the crowd, and countermarched through them. The ranks were quickly filled up, as soon as the movement was understood. The meeting adjourned to call of the chair, and the company proceeded up Fifth avenue." Now this company that I formed there. Doctor Donnelly was present, and he had been spoken of as a fit person to command. I intended to have taken them down Diamond alley to Gregg's store, and arm them with axe-handles or pick-handles, or whatever could be got; but the large majority of them were indisposed to do that, and we started off to the university building, across the way here, and two or three portions of the building were broken in in search of some drilling arms that the cadets in the university use. After a considerable waste of time there, they couldn't get the arms. We succeeded in getting them into line again, and we marched off to Gregg's. Mr. Gregg opened the door, and the line formed outside in the street, and some men went into the store, and they carried enough of those ax-handles to arm the crowd. When that was done, I turned them over to Doctor Donnelly. In anticipation of the formation of this company, I had given orders for a number of police to collect at the city hall, to the end that they would lead this company and precede them, and in that position go and attack the rioters. When I had put Doctor Donnelly in charge, I told him to bring his men to the city hall, and I would give him a police force to precede them and march at their head to go to the scene of the riot. I don't know whether the Doctor understood me or not; but his police force did go. His company didn't go to the city hall, and right here, permit me to say that you have heard a great deal about fifty men squelching this mob, and a hundred determined men. I suppose Doctor Donnelly thought he had determined men, and he didn't go for police assistance. Possibly he expected he could accomplish it all without the aid of police. He went; he was repulsed horse, foot, and dragoon. The next thing I saw of them they came to the city hall in a demoralized condition. I said to the doctor when he came there, says I, "Doctor, keep your men here. I understand that there is a company of soldiers on a steamboat at the lock. You and I will go up and see if we can get them." He got into the buggy, and we went up there. We saw the lady of the house at the lock, and she told me that these men had had orders to go into camp at the poor farm. We came back to the city hall, and was informed that Doctor Donnelly's troops had gone to their supper, and would be back after supper. After supper there came some eight or ten of them--they were there ready for action. That was all that came back, and so you see what fifty determined men could do.

Q. Did this company of Doctor Donnelly's go up there armed with anything else but pick handles?

A. I don't know. I think that after I left them ready to come to the city hall, that they went some place and got some arms, because they came back to the mayor's office with some instruments----

Q. Muskets?

A. I guess there were some muskets the university had used. I know the university authorities created quite a disturbance about their not being returned to them.

Q. You spoke about different parties coming there to suppress this riot. Who were those parties, besides your officers--I mean outside of the city authorities?

A. This meeting of the citizens.

Q. Who else?

A. I don't know any others.

Q. The sheriff and the county authorities?

A. I saw nothing of them on Sunday.

Q. You were speaking of those parties attempting command or change of affairs in trying to suppress the riots. Did you have reference to the citizens' committee?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was it the sheriff's posse?

A. I have reference to the county authorities, the Pennsylvania railroad, and the military.

Q. Then what was it you had reference to--the citizens?

A. No, sir.

Q. Nor Doctor Donnelly's command?

A. I think Doctor Donnelly's command went in good faith, to do what they could--they were not able.

Q. You said you were utterly hostile to all those parties in their efforts?

A. I said I was hostile to their plan of operations, because I didn't think it was called for at the time it was done, because I believed it would end in disaster, which it did.

Q. Did you make any effort to have any conference with these parties to agree on some plan that would be effected?

A. No, sir; they went to work independent of me, and had called out the troops without consulting me at all. I was at my office all night waiting if anything would occur, and I knew nothing of this movement to call troops out until I saw the dispatches on Friday morning.

Q. Do I understand you that because they did not consult you, you put yourself in hostility to all these parties?

A. If you understand me that way, you understand me entirely wrong.

Q. I want to know that?

A. I have time and again here to-day stated that I was utterly hostile to their plan of operations, and that I had nothing to do with them, because I knew I would be powerless with these men.

Q. You made no effort to see them or converse with them, and had no conference with them?

A. No, sir.

Q. Made no attempt to have any conference with them?

A. No, sir; I did not. I am satisfied they did not want me.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Was it not your duty as mayor of the city, to take charge, notwithstanding these men, and if they put themselves in your way, to take them and make them behave themselves?

A. No; I could not do that. The sheriff is the leading officer.

Q. Here among the powers, I find set forth is, "To prevent riots, noises, disturbances, or disorderly assemblages--" that is a part of your powers.

A. I will show you something stronger than that there. That is very weak--wishy-washy. Do not understand me as being offensive--you have got a pretty good-natured face, and I like to talk to you. There it is, "The mayor of the city, shall be its executive officer, and the conservator of its peace. He shall have and exercise within the city limits, the powers conferred on sheriffs of counties, to suppress disorder, and keep the peace.

Q. That is what I meant. Was it not part of your duty to take charge yourself, as mayor?

A. Not under the circumstances. I had been superseded by the power that had the whole county at its beck, who had without my knowledge, and, as I thought, entirely unnecessary, laid out a plan of action I could have nothing at all to do with.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. I would like at this point, for the mayor to explain why he considered himself superseded, having acted without his knowledge.

A. Why I considered I had been superseded?

Q. You say that they acted without your knowledge. I want to know why you considered yourself superseded?

A. I did not consider myself superseded because they acted without my knowledge. If I said anything of that kind I have been misunderstood. I have time and again tried to express myself upon that point, and that is this, that the sheriff of the county, together with the military, had taken possession of this matter, and superseded the mayor.

Q. Had you been so informed?

A. I was superseded by the dismissal of the police on Friday morning, and the taking possession by soldiers who had been called out by the State authorities.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Do you know the fact of your own knowledge that the police had been dismissed?

A. I know that fact from the statement of the police--made to me and to the office.

Q. That is the only way you know that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You received no intelligence of that fact from the railroad officials?

A. No, sir; I did not.

Q. Is it their prerogative to dismiss the police, or have you got control of them?

A. They were under control of the railroad authorities. They directed them where to go, and according to their orders they went.

Q. Have they got control, equal to yourself, with any police in this city?

A. Under the circumstances they had.

Q. You delegated that power to them?

A. They were sent there for that purpose, to do just as they said for them to do.

Q. You delegated the power to the railroad officials to have charge of these men?

A. I cannot say that I delegated them, because there were not over four or five that were under my control.

Q. Did you consider, under all the circumstances, that the railroad officials or anybody else had the right to dismiss police without consulting you, or had any control over them?

A. Under those circumstances, I did.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Was that dismissal anything more than a mere taking of those warrants from the hands of the police, and putting them in the hands of the sheriff?

A. There was nothing of the kind took place, and now understand me: policemen, at the suggestion of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, were sent there during the afternoon and the night. They were there under the control of the railroad authorities, and when the railroad authorities did not want them any more, they dismissed them, which was on Friday morning.

Q. You understand they gave them a formal dismissal, and told them their services were not needed to keep the peace any longer?

A. I do not know in what form it was done.

Q. Was it not merely taking warrants from their hands, and telling these policemen they would put the warrants that were in their hands for execution into the hands of the sheriff to execute--was not that all the dismissal there was?

A. At that time no warrants had been issued.

Q. On Friday?

A. On Friday morning, when the police were dismissed by the railroad authorities, no warrants had been issued--no information had been made.

Q. After their dismissal, did you think then you had no further occasion to keep the police force there?

A. Not because they were dismissed, but because I had been superseded by the military and the county.

Q. I want to know why you thought you were superseded--were you so informed by either of those parties, either the sheriff or the mayor, or anybody acting for them?

A. No, sir; I was not informed by them.

Q. Why did you consider yourself superseded? Simply because they took action to suppress the riot?

A. They took possession of the whole business. There was no room for me.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Would not your police force which you could have gathered together have been some assistance to them in keeping the peace?

A. If the sheriff had asked me for the police as a posse to help him I could have given a hundred men.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. I want to ask you this question, if you think that you can be superseded by the military?

A. If I am not?

Q. Yes; can you be superseded by the military in your powers and duties?

A. If I had charge they would not supersede me.

Q. Is it not your duty to take charge?

A. That duty had been performed by the sheriff.

Q. Is it not your duty to take charge of your police and put down any riots or disturbance within the city limits, regardless of any power on earth?

A. No, sir; in the event that the sheriff does not interfere, it would be. If I got possession first I would hold.

Q. Were you not called upon first by the railroad officials?

A. I was called upon first by the railroad officials to furnish them with ten men.

Q. And you acted?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Why did you not keep control?

A. Because they had taken it out of my hands by dismissing the police, calling upon the sheriff, and the sheriff called upon the State for troops.

Q. Then I understand you to say that the sheriff superseded you, in your judgment?

A. That is what I said a dozen times.

Q. Did the military supersede you?

A. Certainly they did.

Q. I want to know if you think the military can supersede you?

A. Mr. Chairman, you are getting too hair-splitting here. If I had charge the military could not supersede me--it would not be in their power.

Q. Did you not have charge at the commencement?

A. At the commencement I had, but on Friday morning I was thrown to the dogs. In the night they had sent for the sheriff. They did not come down to the mayor's office, where I was ready and waiting to hear what was going on there the whole night, but they went for the sheriff and they took him out.

Q. Did they not telegraph you for fifty more additional police?

A. Did I not tell you half a dozen times that I knew nothing about that--I received no dispatch--how often must I repeat that?

Q. Was it not received at your office?

A. I was told that they sent there for more men, and that they got them.

Q. Did they get fifty more policemen that they called for?

A. No, sir. Wait a moment, and I will prove to you that at supper time--after supper--they sent word from the outer depot to the inner depot that they would not furnish transportation to the policemen that went there--they had enough, and they did not want any more.

Q. You did not send them the fifty policemen?

A. I do not know anything at all about it. They got all they wanted.

Q. Now, in not getting them, they called upon the sheriff?

A. No, sir. I will prove to you they got all they wanted. They said they wanted no more, and they would not furnish transportation to the men at the Union depot; but if these men wanted to go they would have to walk.

Q. They did not get the fifty policemen. You have stated they sent for fifty policemen, and they did not get them?

A. I do not know that they sent for fifty policemen, but I have a moral conviction they sent for more men. How many I do not know. It may have been fifty. I have a moral conviction that more men were sent to them than they wanted, for they said so. Whether it was fifty men, I do not know. I do not think it was fifty.

Q. You were not at your office, and did not receive that dispatch calling for fifty men?

A. I was not at the office from quarter to five in the afternoon until eight in the evening. From eight in the evening I was there all night.

Q. I understand your position, Mr. McCarthy, to be this: that you may be superseded by the sheriff of the county, but not by the military?

A. No, sir; that is not my position, by a long slap. My position is that the military were sent here at the request of the sheriff--that the sheriff took possession of the business, and that the police were dismissed, and then I had nothing more to do with them. That is my position.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. That is, when the sheriff takes possession that then there is no further call on you or any further duty for you to perform--is that the position?

A. Under the circumstances as they existed at that time.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Why, then, did you assume command on Saturday evening?

A. Because I had reason to believe from what I saw that outside of the railroad property there was work to be done.

Q. It was not then for the purpose of protecting the railroad property that you acted on Saturday?

A. My good conscience, didn't the railroad company and the sheriff have one thousand men right on that ground, or thereabouts.

Q. It was not for that purpose, then, but it was for the purpose of protecting the city you acted on Saturday?

A. Yes; outside of that.

Q. What time was the information made by Mr. Watt before you on which the warrants were issued for these nine or ten men?

A. Sometime during Friday forenoon.

Q. Made by Mr. Watt?

A. I do not know. May be it was.

Q. Warrants were immediately issued, were they?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Placed in the hands of your policemen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long were they kept by the policemen?

A. Until Saturday morning.

Q. And no arrests were made?

A. No arrests were made.

Q. And then what was done with them?

A. They came there and wanted to take the information away--the law authorities--I think Mr. Housey was one of them. We would not give them the information--would not let go of that. Then they wanted the names of the men who were implicated in it for the purpose of getting out bench warrants, and they got the names. We gave them to them.

Q. Why were these men not arrested on Friday?

A. Because a troubled state of feeling had been existing in the community by calling out the troops, and I instructed the policemen to be very cautious, and if they made any arrests, an arrest any time before the meeting of the grand jury would be sufficient, simply for the purposes of this information.

Q. Did you not understand these persons were the leaders in the disturbances on Twenty-eighth street?

A. I would understand they were engaged in it.

Q. That was the charge contained in the affidavit, was it not?

A. No, no; it was not a charge. I think that the information was made under an act of Assembly, passed within the last two or three years, about people interfering with the running of trains. I think that was it, though I am not quite sure.

Q. Would it not have been better to have made these arrests as soon as possible, before the arrival of the military?

A. No, sir; I think, under the circumstances, it would have been a very bad move to have made these arrests. I was conscious, at the time I gave the warrants to the officer, that it was a dangerous thing, on account of the public excitement that had been created by calling out the troops, and I told him to be very cautious about what he would do, and I was satisfied he would be cautious, as to rush pell-mell, right up there, and snatch these men right out, would have created a disturbance at once. At least, I thought so.

Q. On Saturday night, when you went out and ordered all the police you could get, consistently, to the Twelfth ward, I understand you to say that it was not for the purpose of protecting the railroad property, but to protect the city particularly?

A. I conceived that the railroad property had eight hundred or nine hundred--at least eight hundred men there, for that purpose.

Q. You took these policemen, you say, to arrest men that were carrying off railroad property?

A. Presumed to be railroad property.

Q. Or carrying off plunder?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many did they arrest?

A. I could not tell you. I suppose there may have been about a hundred.

Q. What was done with these men?

A. They were taken to the station-house, and Alderman Butler, I believe, who was in charge--I was not in charge for a week; I had something else to do--I believe they came to the conclusion that they could not be convicted of larceny, from not being able to identify what goods they had. All things were thrown together in the hurry of the moment, and they could not identify them nor the goods, and I believe they came to the conclusion that an action of larceny would not lie, and it would be troublesome to prove it, and he fined them.

Q. How many of them did he fine?

A. Indeed, I cannot tell. I never looked to see.

Q. Did he discharge any of them?

A. That I do not know. I had too much to do, to look after them.

Q. Was any record made of it?

A. Oh! yes; they have their names down in the watch-house docket.

Q. You never examined the record?

A. No, sir; I never examined it because it was a trifling matter compared with other things that had to be done, and I paid no attention to it.

Q. Had you any intimation from any source prior to the appearance of Mr. Watt on Thursday at your office of an outbreak among the railroad employés?

A. No, sir; but on the contrary, I happened to know from the president of the Trainmen's Union that when he was told that, eleven o'clock that day, he disputed the accuracy of the statement. He knew nothing of it, but when he was assured in such a way that he thought there must be something in it, he left the corner of Eleventh and Liberty streets for Twenty-eighth street, to know what the facts were. He himself did not believe it.

Q. You had no reason at all to anticipate anything of the kind?

A. No; I never dreamed that there would be an outbreak such as there was.

Q. That there would be a strike at all on the railroad?

A. Oh, no; had no idea of it at all. I very seldom come in contact with railroad men.

Q. In the conversations that you had with the men who went out in the Twelfth ward, did they give you any reasons for the outbreak and the strike?

A. No, sir; never entered into a critical examination of the question there at that time.

Q. Your conversation with them was simply in relation to----

A. What was occurring at the moment. I think from all I could gather from the railroad men, that they were averse to what took place.

Q. Had you noticed any influx of people in the city, prior to this time--within a few days?

A. No, sir; I had not, but there was one thing struck me with surprise, that I did not know the faces of vast numbers of people. I was born and raised in Pittsburgh, and I know an immense number of faces. I almost think I can tell a Pittsburgher when I see him, but on that day there were vast numbers of people I could not recognize. I got into close quarters with them twice. By the by, I have not told you that I came in contact with them at the head of the platform of the Union depot, but, like Doctor Donnelly's men, in about ten seconds I was placed _hors du combat_. They invited me to take a little walk--one fellow struck me. A good man in the crowd interfered, and told me they did not want to hurt me, but if I stayed there I would have to take the consequence. I looked around at Officer Jones, who went into the crowd with me, and I saw him looking pretty black, and he made up his mind to the situation, and he left. He came over to me, and says, "Mayor, you had better get out of this." I was disposed to kick. I did not feel very afraid of them. I am not a man of courage. He gave me a nudge, says he, "Get out quick." And I thought I had better go. With that the mob picked me up and carried me from the head of the platform and landed me out in front of the depot, and Alderman O'Donnell and Dan Hall, and four or five policemen then came up, and I was led into the Union depot.

Q. What time was that?

A. I cannot tell the time--it was when the mob was coming down the Pennsylvania railroad yard, smashing up cars and things.

Q. Some time Sunday?

A. I got a little angry, and lost my head. I did not care what I did, and Jones and I, and two or three others, I do not know who they were, went in.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. I would like to ask a few more questions in regard to the sheriff and military superseding the mayor?

A. Never ending and always beginning. Do you expect to put me in the hole, Mr. Yutzy?

Q. Not at all. I would like to know why you considered yourself superseded by any other authorities here in the city, the disturbance having commenced?

A. I have tried to impress that upon you half a dozen times.

Q. Were you informed, by either of those parties, that you were not needed?

A. I have told you two or three times _no_, and I shall have to continue answering it _no_ every time you ask me.

Q. Did you not consider it your duty to make an effort to suppress the riot and disturbance after they had made an effort to do so?

A. After they had made an effort and abandoned it, I did make an effort.

Q. During the time you were making that effort, did you not consider it your duty also, as chief officer of the city, to suppress any riot or disturbance?

A. I think I told you several times.

Q. Answer that question?

A. I say I have already told you several times, that they pursued a course so diametrically opposed to anything I would have done or could have approved of, and having a firm conviction that no persuasion of mine could alter the determination of the authorities who had it in charge, that I could not interfere.

Q. You made no effort, then, to disperse or suppress the riot?

A. No, sir.

Q. After they had made an effort?

A. After they had made an effort, I did.

Q. During the time they were making an effort?

A. No, sir.

Q. Made no effort?

A. No, sir.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. And not until after they had failed, in your judgment?

A. Yes, sir. What more evidence would you want than that everybody had run away--they had left. I do not charge the soldiers with running away--do not understand that. I meant among the men who said the Philadelphia troops murdered the people there. I am not among those men. I believe they were murdered, but the Philadelphia troops are not responsible for it.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. During the time that the sheriff or the State authorities were making an effort to suppress this riot and disperse the mob, was it not your duty, just as much as if they had not been here, to preserve the peace, and make every effort in your power to the same end?

A. I have already answered that question half a dozen times. I answered it a moment ago.

Q. Will you please answer that, yes or no.

A. Under the circumstances, I do not think that I had anything to do with it.

Q. I would like you to answer that question. It may not be so very material, but I would like to have that question answered, yes or no?

A. I have answered it?

Q. Can you answer it, yes or no.

A. I have already answered it. Under the circumstances, I do not think so.

Q. The sheriff and the military, or even the United States Government, attempting to suppress a riot unless there was military law declared, did you not consider it your duty to make every effort in your power to preserve the peace and prevent any disturbance in your city?

A. I would consider it my duty to do so if there was nothing to interfere with me.

Q. Was there anybody interfering with your duties by any manner of means?

A. I have already said that I considered I was relieved by the sheriff and the State authorities.

Q. Did they interfere with you?

A. It just comes down to this; that is my platform, and that is what I believe, and you happen to think differently.

Q. I wish to ask you the question whether they interfered with you by any manner of means in the performance of your duties?

A. They did not.

Q. And still you suspended your operations or your efforts to suppress this riot and keep the peace?

A. Because these gentlemen superseded me and took possession.

Q. In what way did they supersede you?

A. By dismissing the police that they had in charge, the railroad men, and by the sheriff going there and performing his duties as sheriff, and by calling out the State troops.

Q. Who dismissed these police?

A. The railroad men.

Q. Are you subordinate to the railroad authorities?

A. No, sir; I am not subordinate to them, not by a long slap. There cannot be two kings where I am one.

Q. Still you regarded the railroad company as superseding you when they dismissed your police?

A. No, sir; I did not.

Q. Did they supersede you at any time--the railroad authorities?

A. Why, certainly they did.

Q. By calling upon the sheriff?

A. By the sheriff undertaking to order the crowd to disperse at Twenty-eighth street, and then immediately coming to the conclusion that the civil power had become exhausted, and then sending a dispatch by Senator Scott calling for the troops, and the troops being ordered out--that superseded me, suspended me. I went over that a dozen times. I am on this stand doing the swearing, and I am swearing for myself.

Q. I would not ask you any question that I did not think was a proper one?

A. I don't think that, but we differ.

Q. There appears to be a conflict of authority in this matter between the city and the county and the State authorities?

A. Not a particle of conflict of authority. I took pretty good care that there should be no conflict. When the county and the military and the railroad authority undertook to follow a course which I would have nothing to do with, that I could not approve of, that I believed would end in disaster, as it did, I stepped aside and let them have their way, because I could not control these men.

Q. We want to know where the responsibility should rest--which of those authorities should have taken command?

A. You have a right to form your opinion from the evidence before you. I have given my evidence, what I thought about the matter.

Q. For that reason I ask you the question whether you considered yourself superseded by other authorities, and should refrain from making any effort?

A. I have told you I thought so, and gave you my reasons for it.

Q. During the pillage and the carrying away of goods at the Union depot and in that vicinity, from the railroad, did you see any of the citizens carrying away any of those goods?

A. Oh, yes; there must have been citizens--they must have been citizens--it was not the fellows who were stealing that there was any danger from. It was the fellows standing around with their hands in their pockets.

Q. Did you know anyone in particular who was carrying away goods there?

A. I did not.