Chapter XII: Part 12

Mr. BALL. Did anybody tell you at that time that there had been anyone in the Texas Depository Book Building that had done the shooting?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I think at that time it was strictly speculation from where the shot had been fired.

Mr. BALL. He just told you to go back to the scene of the shooting?

Mr. SIMS. Yes--as I said, I couldn't say for sure.

Mr. BALL. Did you go back there--back to Elm and Houston?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we went directly to the Book Store and Sheriff Bill Decker rode back with us.

Mr. BALL. And you went right to the building?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and pulled up in front of it there--in front of the building.

Mr. BALL. On the way back, did you hear anything over the radio?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we heard them mention the Book Store.

Mr. BALL. What did they say--what did you hear?

Mr. SIMS. Well, now, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. You heard something about it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we went there for some reason--I know that.

Mr. BALL. Was it something you heard over the radio that directed you to go there?

Mr. SIMS. We went directly to the store and parked there in front.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we took our rifles out of the car and shotgun, and proceeded to the building, went in the building.

Mr. BALL. What door of the building did you go in?

Mr. SIMS. The front door.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I.

Mr. BALL. Could you tell me about what time you got to the building?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I got it here--about 12:58--about 1 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. The radio log of that day at 12:36 shows that the following was broadcast from the police radio log: "The witness says shots came from the fifth floor of the Texas Book Depository Store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."

Do you think you heard that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I wouldn't have heard that. We didn't hear about the shooting until 12:40, but we had to have heard something or we wouldn't have went directly to the Book Store like we did.

Mr. BALL. At 12:45, there was a broadcast that stated: "All the information we have received indicates it did come from the fifth floor of that building."

"Which building?"

"The Texas Depository Building at Elm and Houston."

Do you know whether you could have heard that?

Mr. SIMS. Well, our radio was on--I could have heard, that; yes, sir. We got to the hospital, I guess, about that time and we did have our radio on.

Mr. BALL. When you went in the front door, who was with you?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. SIMS. We went directly to the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator?

Mr. SIMS. The main passenger elevator.

Mr. BALL. It was a freight elevator, wasn't it?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I think the passenger elevator goes to about the third floor and then the freight elevator takes over.

Mr. BALL. You went up in the passenger elevator in the front of the building?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you went as far as it could go, did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. Then, we caught the freight elevator.

Mr. BALL. That would be in another part of the building?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I think it's on the north end of the building.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody direct you where to go to get the freight elevator?

Mr. SIMS. I believe--I'm not positive whether they did or not.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go from there?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we got off on the third floor and there were officers there, so we went all the way up and we started to the seventh floor, actually, and there was officers on every floor as we went up.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go first?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we stopped at the second floor, first.

Mr. BALL. Now, were you on the elevator at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir--it was full of officers.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who some of the officers were?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I don't know which ones I can remember, but Lieutenant Revill was there, I believe.

Mr. BALL. At 2:35, you mentioned two officers.

Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Revill and Detective Westphal was over there with us.

Mr. BALL. Are they with homicide?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they are with the special service bureau.

Mr. BALL. What is the special service bureau?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it's a combination of vice, narcotics, and undercover work.

Mr. BALL. Now, you got, you said, up to the third floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go then?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we got off--we stopped at the second floor and went to the third floor and some officer there had a key to a room and we made a hurried search of it and there was a bunch of officers on that floor and we went on to the fourth floor, and I don't know if we got off at the fourth or not, but anyway, we got off at the seventh floor--each floor as we passed would have officers on it, and we hadn't been on the seventh floor very long--for just a while--until someone hollered that they had found the hulls on the sixth floor, so we went back to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Someone on the seventh floor told you they had found the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; someone hollered from the sixth floor that the hulls had been found.

Mr. BALL. And you could hear them?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; you could hear them.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down the stairway?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we went back down the elevator, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off of the elevator?

Mr. SIMS. We may have had to climb the stairs from six to seven--I don't remember how high that elevator goes. I know we went back to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off at the sixth floor?

Mr. SIMS. We went over to the corner window there.

Mr. BALL. Which corner?

Mr. SIMS. It would be the one on Houston and Elm, that corner there--it would be the southeast corner.

Mr. BALL. It was the southeast corner?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see?

Mr. SIMS. We saw the boxes stacked up about--I don't know--three or four stacks high and found three empty hulls laying there next to the wall of the Elm Street side of the building, the front of the building.

Mr. BALL. Who was there when you saw them?

Mr. SIMS. Well, there was two or three officers was there when we got there, and I believe the officer that found them was still there. I have his name here someplace.

Mr. BALL. Was he a deputy sheriff?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, he was a deputy sheriff.

Mr. BALL. And who else--Luke Mooney?

Mr. SIMS. Yes--there was two or three officers there besides us--I don't know who all.

Mr. BALL. And did Luke tell you whether or not he had moved the hulls or not?

Mr. SIMS. He said he had left them like he had found them.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of those hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Day did, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Was he there right at the time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he didn't get there until a few minutes later.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the picture taken of the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You saw Day take the pictures, did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was the cameraman, was he?

Mr. SIMS. Well, there was another one there too. Actually, it was Detective Studebaker that works for him.

Mr. BALL. Studebaker and Day?

Mr. SIMS. I believe it was Studebaker.

Mr. BALL. Did they both have cameras?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they both had cameras or not.

Mr. BALL. You saw one of them at least take a picture?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know pictures was being taken.

Mr. BALL. When the picture was taken, were the hulls in the same position as when you had first seen them?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. BALL. What else did you see that day?

Mr. SIMS. Well, someone then hollered--we started a search of the sixth floor then, going from east to west--all the officers, and someone had found the rifle over by the stairway.

Mr. BALL. That would be in what corner of the building?

Mr. SIMS. That would be in actually the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BALL. And what happened then?

Mr. SIMS. Then, we went over to where the rifle was found.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the rifle?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I saw the rifle.

Mr. BALL. Where was the rifle?

Mr. SIMS. It was laying there near a stairway, partially covered by some paper.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any pictures taken of that? Of the rifle at that location?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Who took that picture?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it was either Studebaker or Lieutenant Day.

Mr. BALL. Who saw the picture taken--did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And then what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. Then we finished there and went--started to go to the city hall.

Mr. BALL. You said you finished there, did you see anything of significance there besides these hulls and the rifle?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a paper bag?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we saw some wrappings--a brown wrapping there.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see it?

Mr. SIMS. It was there by the hulls.

Mr. BALL. Was it right there near the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. As well as I remember--of course, I didn't pay too much attention at that time, but it was, I believe, by the east side of where the boxes were piled up--that would be a guess--I believe that's where it was.

Mr. BALL. On the east side of where the boxes were--would that be the east?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it was right near the stack of boxes there. I know there was some loose paper there.

Mr. BALL. Was Johnson there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed Johnson and Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were found.

Mr. BALL. To stay there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was Marvin Johnson and L. D. Montgomery who stayed by the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the wrapper to the hulls.

Mr. BALL. Was the window open in the southeast corner?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes near the window?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; there was enough room for someone to stand between the boxes and the window.

Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes anywhere near the window ledge?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; there was, I believe, I'm not positive about this, a couple of boxes, one stacked on the other right at the left of the window and then there was a stack of boxes directly behind the window about 3 or 4 feet high, I guess.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody take a picture of the boxes in the window--what position they were on the window ledge?

Mr. SIMS. Well, Lieutenant Day took a picture of all the surrounding area there.

Mr. BALL. How long were you on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir; let's see--at the time the hulls were found, I think the hulls were found about 1:15, so we were down there just a minute or two. Let's see--we got back to the city hall at 2:15 and we went over and talked to Sheriff Decker 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you left, you say that Captain Fritz told Johnson and Montgomery to stay near the place where the hulls were located?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was that after the picture had been taken of the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. I believe it was during--before Lieutenant Day got up there, I believe.

Mr. BALL. And it was after that that you went to the place where the rifle was found?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then did you go back to the place where the hulls were located on the floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That's when the picture was taken?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he was making pictures during that time.

Mr. BALL. Who picked up the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I assisted Lieutenant Day in picking the hulls up.

Mr. BALL. There were three hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of a receptacle did you put them in?

Mr. SIMS. He had an envelope.

Mr. BALL. Did he take charge of the hulls there?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Did he take them in his possession, I mean?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he took them in his possession then or not.

Mr. BALL. But you helped him pick them up?

Mr. SIMS. I picked them up from the floor and he had an envelope there and he held the envelope open.

Mr. BALL. You didn't take them in your possession, did you?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't believe I did.

Mr. BALL. When the rifle was found, were you there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we we still on the sixth floor where the hulls were, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone pick the rifle up off the floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I believe Lieutenant Day--he dusted the rifle there for fingerprints.

Mr. BALL. And did you see Fritz do anything?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he took it and ejected a live round of ammunition out of the rifle.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who took possession of that live round?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Now, you left the building about what time?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at the city hall around 2 o'clock--I'll have to look at the record--on this--about 2:15--we left there evidently about 2 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. You and who?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz went over and talked to Sheriff Decker. He sent word he wanted to talk to Captain Fritz, so we talked to the sheriff and then we went to the city hall.

Mr. BALL. Where was Decker when he said he wanted to talk to Fritz?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't go inside the sheriff's office--I stayed out in the corridor there.

Mr. BALL. The sheriff's office is just a half a block from the Texas School Depository Building?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it's across the street.

Mr. BALL. And the city hall where your office, the police offices are located, is how far from the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. SIMS. Well, that's the 500 block there and the city hall is, let's see, in the 2000 block, I believe, so it would be 15 blocks.

Mr. BALL. A couple of miles--a mile and a half?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know what it is.

Mr. BALL. When you went back to your offices, was Fritz there at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he went back with Boyd and I.

Mr. BALL. After you left Decker's?

Mr. SIMS. He went back with Boyd and I.

Mr. BALL. What happened when you went back to your office?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir; we got to the office and, of course, it was full of people and I think----

Mr. BALL. You say it was full of people?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You mean the floor was full of people?

Mr. SIMS. Our office was--I don't remember about the people.

Mr. BALL. What people?

Mr. SIMS. Officers--police officers, I don't know who all was up there, all I know is that there was a lot of people.

Mr. BALL. Had the press moved in and the television cameras at that time?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what time they had moved in--I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what happened when you got back?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, I think he talked to a detective then--he's a lieutenant now--Captain Fritz talked to Baker and said, "While we was up in the Book Depository Store we heard Officer Tippit had been shot," and so Baker, I believe, told Captain Fritz that they had the man that had shot Officer Tippit, in the interrogation room.

Mr. BALL. Who was that Baker?

Mr. SIMS. He was a detective then, but he's a lieutenant now. He has been in the office there for several years.

Mr. BALL. Baker told Fritz that Tippit had been shot?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that we had heard that on the sixth floor of the Book Store, but he told Captain Fritz that the man that shot Officer Tippit was there in the interrogation room, or something to that effect.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know, let's see, we took Oswald at 2:20, Boyd and I, took Oswald from the interrogation room to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. You and Boyd?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. At 2:20 took Oswald--that's the first time you saw Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; that's right, he was there in that interrogation room.

Mr. BALL. And who was in Fritz' office at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, during the interrogation, there was Mr. Bookhout, that's Jim Bookhout, and Mr. Hosty, and Boyd and I and Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Did you make notes of what was said at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did your partner, Boyd, make notes, do you think?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he did or not.

Mr. BALL. Do you have anything from which you can refresh your memory as to what was said in that interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You have some memory of what was said, don't you?

Mr. SIMS. Well, not the exact wording or the exact questions.

Mr. BALL. Give us your memory of the substance of what was said there at that time.

Mr. SIMS. Well, I couldn't say that. I know that it consisted of his name and where he lived and things of that nature, and where he worked.

Mr. BALL. Now, tell us all you can remember, even though it is not complete, just tell us as much as you can remember?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember--I know, like I say, he asked him his name and where he worked and things of that nature.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him whether or not he had killed Tippit?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I believe he did.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. SIMS. He said, "No."

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him if he had shot the President?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember now what--I wouldn't want to say for sure what questions he did ask him.

Mr. BALL. Who did the questioning?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Did anyone else ask him questions?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know if they did or not.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him any questions?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well----

Mr. SIMS. Not at this time here, I didn't but I talked to him later on that evening.

Mr. BALL. But you didn't ask him any questions at the time you were there then?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did actually do any interrogation myself then.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed at that time?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he was or not.

Mr. BALL. Wasn't he handcuffed with his handcuffs behind his back, and didn't he ask to be more comfortable?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any incident where Oswald said he would be more comfortable if he could get his hands from behind his back, or something of that sort?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember changing his handcuffs at any time so that he could put his hands in front of him.

Mr. SIMS. Of course, when he took the paraffin cast of his hands, he wasn't handcuffed?

Mr. BALL. But that was late that evening?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; it was around--it was after dark, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Now, I'm talking about--only about the interrogation that commenced about 2:20 in the afternoon of November 22.

Mr. SIMS. I just don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember changing the handcuffs?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. How long was he in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we first went in there at 2 and we stayed in there evidently--this says here that the Secret Service and the FBI took part in the interrogation of Oswald with Captain Fritz, and we took him down to the first showup at 4:05.

Mr. BALL. Then, would you say he was in Captain Fritz' office from about 2:20 until 4 o'clock?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he had to be either in Captain Fritz' office or the interrogation room--that's the only two places that he was kept.

Mr. BALL. All right, do you have any memory of how long he was in Captain Fritz' office the first time for the interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't recall if he stayed in there from 2:20 until showup time at 4:05 or not. He may have stayed in there all that time or he may have been put back in the interrogation room, which is right next door.

Mr. BALL. Where is the interrogation room from Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. It's in the same office, but just a different room--there's just a hall separating them.

Mr. BALL. And in the interrogation room, were you with Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You and Boyd?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When he was in the interrogation room for the first showup, did you ask him any questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; we talked to him.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to him?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember--it was just--I know I asked him about his--later on I asked him about his life in Russia and about him being in the service and things of that nature.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him that at this time? Before the first showup at 4:05?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what time it was.

Mr. BALL. There was sometime then that you asked him about his life in Russia?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are you able to tell us about what time that was?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I sure don't know what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Could it have been after he had been in Captain Fritz' office and and before the first showup?

Mr. SIMS. It was after he had been in Captain Fritz' office; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And it was in the interrogation room?

Mr. SIMS. I--well, I don't know--I have talked to him both places, and I don't know--I know he wouldn't talk at all about the assassination of the President or of Officer Tippit, but he would talk about his life in Russia and some things over here and about his family and things.

Mr. BALL. Now, you say he wouldn't talk about the assassination of the President, what do you mean?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he would just deny knowledge of it.

Mr. BALL. And you say he wouldn't talk about Officer Tippit's death, what do you mean by that; what would he say, if anything?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he would make some remark and he just wouldn't talk about it.

Mr. BALL. Well, did he ever deny that he had anything to do with it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He did?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any knowledge of Officer Tippit's death?

Mr. SIMS. Not at all; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any knowledge of the shooting of the President at all?

Mr. SIMS. None at all.

Mr. BALL. When he did talk to you about his life in Russia, what did you say?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I would ask him where he lived and he told me.

Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I've forgotten the name of the town he said he lived in.

Mr. BALL. Irving, Tex.?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; in Russia.

Mr. BALL. Oh, in Russia--I see--what did he say?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it was some town I didn't know about it, but he did say he lived in Moscow, I believe it was.

Mr. BALL. Anything else?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he said he worked in a factory and he liked everything over there except the weather.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else he said?

Mr. SIMS. Well, no, sir; we talked about--just a general discussion about the cars over there and the appliances, and just talked to him about it.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you about his wife?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what he said about his wife--he wouldn't talk about her much.

Mr. BALL. Or his children?

Mr. SIMS. He said he had some children; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything else except he had some children?

Mr. SIMS. I believe he said he had--I don't know if he told me he had a brother or not.

Mr. BALL. There was one time there that you learned that he had a room at 1026 North Beckley--when did you learn that?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know when that was, now, that was found out that first day, I believe. Another officer went out and searched his room and also went to Irving, I believe.

Mr. BALL. The officers went out and searched the room sometime that afternoon, around 3:30.

Mr. SIMS. That's right, I believe so.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether or not you are the one that found out he had a room at 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't believe he did.

Mr. BALL. All right. Did he tell you that his wife lived in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he told me that or not.

Mr. BALL. Now, the first showup was at what time?

Mr. SIMS. At 4:05.

Mr. BALL. How did you conduct that showup?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we took Oswald down with us with the two police officers.

Mr. BALL. What two police officers?

Mr. SIMS. Clark and Perry.

Mr. BALL. You say you took him down--where was he when you took him down?

Mr. SIMS. He was in our office, Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. That would be on the second floor?

Mr. SIMS. Third floor.

Mr. BALL. On the third floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you take him?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we walked out of our door and turned left, and you go a few feet and go to the elevator--where the waiting room for the elevator is--it's a locked door, and then go from there to the basement of the city hall and then go from the elevator there to the holdover room next to the stage, the showup stage.

Mr. BALL. You have a special place for showups, do you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And would you describe it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; in front of it is the detail room, where the officers get their assignments every day before they go out in the squads, and the platform is a raised platform--I guess it's 2 or 2-1/2 or 3 feet raised above the floor and it has got a black--some type of a cloth screen with floodlights at the top and down at the bottom.

Mr. BALL. Is it a cloth screen between the----

Mr. SIMS. Between the suspects and the witnesses we have.

Mr. BALL. The stage and the outer part of the room?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are there seats in the room?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of seats?

Mr. SIMS. They are just a regular chair--with a long desk, something like this here.

Mr. BALL. You say you took Oswald down with a couple of the officers?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; two of the officers went with us--Perry and Clark.

Mr. BALL. And they are Dallas Police Department officers, are they?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And why did you have to have them come down with you?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know why they did.

Mr. BALL. Who instructed them to go with you?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know that. I know they said they were there for the showup so we went with them.

Mr. BALL. During the showup, were they part of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; they participated in the showup; they were with Oswald and this jailer.

Mr. BALL. How were they dressed?

Mr. SIMS. I believe one of them pulled his coat off, and I don't know how they were dressed, but one of them pulled his coat off--I know.

Mr. BALL. Were they handcuffed?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. They were handcuffed together?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; all of them was handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. Now, there were four of them altogether?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What were their names?

Mr. SIMS. They were--well, it would be Clark and Perry and Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Give their full names, if you will.

Mr. SIMS. All right.

Mr. BALL. And what their position is with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. SIMS. No. 1 was Bill Perry, W. E. Perry, he was No. 1, with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3 was R. L. Clark with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 4 was Don Ables, who is a civilian jail clerk.

Mr. BALL. And who selected Don Ables to be in the showup?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know who selected him.

Mr. BALL. Does he have his office in the jail?

Mr. SIMS. Well, yes, sir; the jail office--he works in there.

Mr. BALL. Can you give me just a general description of what these fellows look like?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; W. E. Perry, he is 34 years of age, 5'10 1/2" and about 170, I believe and that's a guess, now. He has brown hair, blue eyes, and dark complexion. Richard L. Clark is 31, 5'9 3/4", 170, has blond hair, blue eyes, and ruddy complexion.

Now, these weights could be different now--I don't know. Don Ables is 26, 5'9", 165, and brown hair.

Mr. BALL. What kind of complexion does Don Ables have?

Mr. SIMS. I don't have that here--I believe he's just ruddy complexion, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Now, in the showup, where were you, on the stage or in the audience?

Mr. SIMS. I was on the stage.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear anything that was said from the audience part of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. SIMS. Well, someone was asking each one in the showup a few questions.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was that asked the questions in the first showup?

Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive, but I believe it was Detective Leavelle in our office conducted the first showup.

Mr. BALL. And what questions did they ask?

Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say the exact questions, but as a rule, his age and address and where he went to school and where he was born and just a few questions like that, just to have them say a few words.

Mr. BALL. Did Leavelle ask all of the questions?

Mr. SIMS. He asked all four of the men in the showup.

Mr. BALL. How did Oswald act at this showup; tell me what he did and what he said?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he just acted more or less like the other--acted natural.

Mr. BALL. Answered the questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he protest any?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he say that he had a T-shirt on and no one else had a T-shirt on?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; now, I think the showup that I didn't conduct the next day, I believe he refused to answer questions or said something about a T-shirt or something.

Mr. BALL. He didn't say anything of that sort?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he acted normal, with the other showups I was in.

Mr. BALL. He answered the questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything else from the audience side of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of any witnesses that were out there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't know who was out there.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any of the witnesses that were out there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Either before or after the showup, did you talk to any of the witnesses out there?

Mr. SIMS. I don't believe I did--I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. Did you take any statements from any of the witnesses in this showup?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. After this showup, what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. We brought Oswald back to the office there.

Mr. BALL. To the interrogation room?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; back to Captain Fritz' office at 4:20.

Mr. BALL. At 4:20?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time?

Mr. SIMS. The FBI agents and Secret Service agents talked to Oswald some more.

Mr. BALL. What were their names?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know their names.

Mr. BALL. You didn't record the names of the Secret Service officers?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember how long this interrogation of Oswald took place?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, we took him back to the second showup at 6:20, so that would be a matter of 2 hours. Now, whether he was in Captain Fritz' office all this time or in the interrogation room some of the time or Captain Fritz' office all the time, I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Now, at this second interrogation at Captain Fritz' office beginning at 4:20, was Oswald handcuffed?

Mr. SIMS. Well, now, I can't tell you--I don't remember if he were handcuffed or not.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of what was said at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did make any notes of any of the interrogation.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything that was said at 4:20?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any memory at all?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BALL. Could you make any kind of an attempt to testify to what you heard there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't say for sure what was said or what he told Captain Fritz or the agents either.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask any questions?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the only time I would talk to him would be when Captain Fritz would be out of the office and then Boyd and I, or whoever was in the office with him would talk to him.

Mr. BALL. But at this time when the Secret Service and the FBI were in Captain Fritz' office, did you ask any questions at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did anyone--any Secret Service man or any FBI man ask him questions at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; they asked him questions.

Mr. BALL. Did you know those men?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I know a good many of them here--I didn't have their names--I don't remember who it was.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember who was in there at the time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup, was there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald before you took him to that showup?

Mr. SIMS. He would be there in Captain Fritz' office there in the city hall.

Mr. BALL. And you took him where?

Mr. SIMS. Back down to the same stage--on the stage there.

Mr. BALL. Who was in this second showup?

Mr. SIMS. The same officers and the jail clerk that was with him on the first one.

Mr. BALL. Mention their names again.

Mr. SIMS. All right, the second showup was at 6:20, approximately, and there was W. E. Perry, police officer, Richard Clark, police department, and Don Ables, jail civilian clerk.

Mr. BALL. Were these men handcuffed at this time?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. Were they dressed the same?

Mr. SIMS. I believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were they dressed differently than Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know they didn't have the color of clothes on or things like that.

Mr. BALL. Did they have ties on?

Mr. SIMS. I don't recall if they did or not.

Mr. BALL. Oswald had a T-shirt on, didn't he?

Mr. SIMS. He had on a brown shirt, some kind of a brown shirt, and he had a white T-shirt on underneath that.

Mr. BALL. Underneath that?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; underneath that.

Mr. BALL. His clothes were rougher looking than the other men?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't imagine that he would be dressed as nice as the officers were, as far as their clothes.

Mr. BALL. Well, the other three men that were in the showup, did they have coats on--did anyone have a coat on?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't believe--Mr. Ables--I'm pretty sure he didn't have a coat on and don't believe any of the officers had them on--I don't remember how they was dressed as far as their coats go.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not they had ties on?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Well, the second showup, I'm not positive, but I believe I conducted the second showup.

Mr. BALL. How did you conduct it?

Mr. SIMS. Well, they are all under a number and I would have them--one, two, three, and four, and No. 1 stand on that center back square there and give their names and age and address and if they own a car, where they went to school, where they were born, where they were raised.

Mr. BALL. Did you know who was out in the audience with the witnesses?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of any of the witnesses?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation that came from the audience side of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. None that I can recall.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you give us in your first showup the numbers assigned to these people?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. SIMS. I'm sure I did.

Mr. BALL. Well, I wasn't sure you did, but give us the numbers assigned to the second showup.

Mr. SIMS. The first showup at 4:05 was No. 1, Bill Perry, Lee Oswald, R. L. Clark, and Don Ables.

Mr. BALL. That was the order--one, two, three, four?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; one, two, three, four.

Mr. BALL. Now, give us the order of the second showup?

Mr. SIMS. Numbered the same for the second showup.

Mr. BALL. The same numbers?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The same men?

Mr. SIMS. Same men and same numbers.

Mr. BALL. After that showup, what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. We went back to Captain Fritz' office, and let me see, at 6:37, we left the showup and went back to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. We stayed with Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Now, in your report, you mentioned that a murder complaint was signed by Fritz that evening?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you present when that happened?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald present also?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was present when the murder complaint was signed?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did this take place?

Mr. SIMS. In Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. And who was present?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let me see--Justice of the Peace Dave Johnston, and Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander, and I don't know who else was there--I don't know who else was present.

Mr. BALL. Was the judge there--the justice judge--the J.P., Dave Johnston?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Bill Alexander and Fritz?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you? And Boyd?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Oswald was there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was anything said to Oswald about the signing of a murder complaint?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was said, and who said it?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what was said--I know Judge Johnston talked to him and Captain Fritz talked to him.

Mr. BALL. And did Alexander talk to him?

Mr. SIMS. I believe he did, but I'm not positive about that.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Judge Johnston said?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did anyone tell him that a murder complaint was being filed against him?

Mr. SIMS. I believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. For what murder?

Mr. SIMS. For Officer Tippit.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do with Oswald after that?

Mr. SIMS. At 7:40 we entered the third showup.

Mr. BALL. Now, at 7:30 an FBI agent came in, didn't he, according to your records?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; at 7:30--we sat in the office with Oswald and Mr. Clements of the FBI came in and interrogated Oswald.

Mr. BALL. You and Boyd were there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did Clements ask him?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember the questions he asked him.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear what Oswald said?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; but I don't remember what the answers were.

Mr. BALL. Then, when was the next showup?

Mr. SIMS. At 7:40.

Mr. BALL. And who were the men in the third showup?

Mr. SIMS. Well, the third showup was No. 1--a Richard Walker [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t.

Mr. BALL. Borchgardt--what is his address; do you have that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't have his address. He was a city prisoner.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what he was charged with at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir--I have his arrest number and his I.D. number.

Mr. BALL. And then was he No. 1?

Mr. SIMS. No. 1----

Mr. BALL. And who else?

Mr. SIMS. No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Who was three?

Mr. SIMS. Ellis Carl Brazel.

Mr. BALL. Who was he?

Mr. SIMS. He was a city prisoner.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what he was charged with?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you know his address?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what happened to him?

Mr. SIMS. I believe he's in the penitentiary.

Mr. BALL. Brazel is in the penitentiary?

Mr. SIMS. I believe so--I'm not positive.

Mr. BALL. Who was No. 4?

Mr. SIMS. No. 4 was Don Ables.

Mr. BALL. That's the jail clerk?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember how these men were dressed?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't, I don't remember how they were dressed.

Mr. BALL. Did they have coats on?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they had coats on or not.

Mr. BALL. Were they all handcuffed?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Together?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted this showup?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember who actually had the suspects to talk or who was out in front.

Mr. BALL. You were on the stage side?

Mr. SIMS. Still on the stage side; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did someone from the audience side conduct the showup and ask the questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald answer the questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was he dressed differently than the other three at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he was dressed differently but I don't know--how differently he was dressed.

Mr. BALL. What did he have on?

Mr. SIMS. He still had on the same clothes he was arrested in, so far as I know.

Mr. BALL. In all three showups he had on the same clothes you described before?

Mr. SIMS. I believe he did.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 150, is that the shirt he had on?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; that's the color shirt he had on.

Mr. BALL. And then he had on a T-shirt?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that the shirt he had on?

Mr. SIMS. Well--one that color--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this showup, did you know any of the witnesses that were in the audience side?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I knew about them, but I didn't know who was out there--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to them?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever take a witness' statement from any of the witnesses at either of the three showups?

Mr. SIMS. Never did----

Mr. BALL. After that showup, what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we took him back up to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. About what time was this?

Mr. SIMS. 7:55.

Mr. BALL. And who was there at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Mr. Clements, and he continued his interrogation of Oswald for about another half hour.

Mr. BALL. And were you present?

Mr. SIMS. I probably was; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was present besides you?

Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say--I know Boyd was and I was present, but I don't know if he was in there all the time or not.

Mr. BALL. Now, during this time, or sometime during this period--sometime between these three showups, you searched Oswald, didn't you?

Mr. SIMS. The first one; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that was what time?

Mr. SIMS. It was 4:05, I believe, but I will have to check my record here and see [checking his record referred to].

Mr. BALL. That was after the second showup?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the first one.

Mr. BALL. After the first showup?

Mr. SIMS. It was before the first showup.

Mr. BALL. It was before the first showup--the 4:05?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that was after the first interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where were you when you first searched him?

Mr. SIMS. We was in the holdover, in other words, the showup room.

Mr. BALL. When you took Oswald down for the first showup and waited in the room outside, the showup room, you searched him?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; Boyd and I.

Mr. BALL. What did you find?

Mr. SIMS. I found a bus transfer slip in his shirt pocket.

Mr. BALL. And what else?

Mr. SIMS. Well, Boyd found some .38 cartridges in his pocket.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know--I have it here--I believe it's five rounds of .38 caliber pistol shells in his left front pocket.

Mr. BALL. Left-front shirt pocket?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they were in his pants pocket.

Mr. BALL. Left front?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was the transfer?

Mr. SIMS. The transfer was in his shirt pocket.

Mr. BALL. Would that be on the left side, I suppose?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he's got two pockets or not.

Mr. BALL. Let's take a look at it.

Mr. SIMS. (Examined Exhibit hereinafter referred to).

Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit 150 is being exhibited for the witness' examination.

Mr. SIMS. Well, he's got two pockets in here and let's see if I have it on here--what pocket it was--I didn't say--I don't remember what pocket he had that in.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the transfer?

Mr. SIMS. I went back up to the office and I believe initialed it and placed it in an envelope for identification.

Mr. BALL. Who did you turn it over to?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; it was either in the lieutenant's desk or Captain Fritz' desk.

Mr. BALL. Lieutenant who?

Mr. SIMS. We have two in there--Lieutenant Wells and Lieutenant Bohart.

Mr. BALL. And what about the five rounds of live ammunition, what did you do with those?

Mr. SIMS. It was also placed in the envelope.

Mr. BALL. And turned over to whom--Fritz?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that was turned over to.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a busdriver named McWatters?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I remember a busdriver coming up there but I don't think I talked with him.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever examine the transfer for the punchmark date?

Mr. SIMS. The busdriver did. He identified that as coming from his punch-card.

Mr. BALL. I know, but I want to know about you--did you look at the transfer?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I looked at it.

Mr. BALL. Did you look at the date and the time that it was punched on the transfer?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if I did or not. I'm sure I looked at it but I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You say it was shown to a busdriver and he made some remarks about it; were you there when it was shown to the busdriver?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. So, you are just telling me what some other officer told you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. SIMS. I didn't see actually the busdriver, I don't believe, identify his transfer.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the officer that showed the transfer to the busdriver?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any identification bracelet on Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he had an identification bracelet.

Mr. BALL. Did he have that on at the time of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever remove that?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when they were getting his paraffin cast on his hands.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do with that identification bracelet?

Mr. SIMS. I placed it in the property room cardsheet.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine that identification bracelet?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did it have on it, if you remember?

Mr. SIMS. It had his name on it.

Mr. BALL. And what was it made out of? What material?

Mr. SIMS. It was, I guess, sterling silver. It was a regular G.I. identification bracelet with a chain and then his nameplate across the top.

Mr. BALL. Now, we are up to the time after the last showup when Mr. Clements interrogated Oswald for about half an hour; what happened after the interrogation by Mr. Clements?

Mr. SIMS. At 8:55 Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker of the crime lab came to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. What did they do?

Mr. SIMS. Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and then Sgt. Pete Barnes came in.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. SIMS. Pete Barnes. He is working with the crime lab also.

Mr. BALL. And what did Barnes do?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he may have assisted in the fingerprinting--I don't know for sure.

Mr. BALL. Is he a crime lab man also?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir, and then shortly later, Capt. George Doughty came in, he's in charge of the crime lab.

Mr. BALL. And what did he do?

Mr. SIMS. He just stayed a few minutes.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name?

Mr. SIMS. (spelling). D-o-u-g-h-t-y--George Doughty.

Mr. BALL. Now, did they make paraffin tests?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. They made casts at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of what?

Mr. SIMS. (reading from instrument in his possession). "He and Barnes made paraffin casts of both hands and also the right side of his face."

Mr. BALL. That "he and Barnes"--who is "he"?

Mr. SIMS. That would be Johnny Hicks, I think.

Mr. BALL. That was Johnny Hicks and Lieutenant Barnes?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and Barnes is a sergeant.

Mr. BALL. Sergeant Barnes and Johnny Hicks made the paraffin casts?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of both hands and what side of his face?

Mr. SIMS. And also the right side of his face.

Mr. BALL. Of whose face?

Mr. SIMS. Oswald's face.