Chapter VI: Part 6

Mr. BALL. At 1:22 p.m., on the transcript of the radio log, I note it says, "Have a description of suspect on Jefferson. Last seen about the 300 block of East Jefferson. White male, 30's; 5'8", black hair, slender built, wearing white shirt, black slacks."

Do you know whether you gave Walker that description?

Mr. POE. I remember giving Walker a description. My partner got in the car with Walker.

Mr. BALL. Did you give Walker a description similar to that?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, the only difference I see between the description you said you gave the other officer and this was that you said he was in his 20's or 25, and this says about 30. Otherwise it is about the same.

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who told you he had on a white jacket?

Mr. POE. Mrs. Markham told me first.

Mr. BALL. She did?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir; Mrs. Markham was awfully excited, and she was--looked like about to faint, and I tried to calm her down as much as I could at first and get as much as I could out of her.

Mr. BALL. How many cartridges, or empty cartridges or shells were given to you?

Mr. POE. There were two in an empty Winston cigarette package.

Mr. BALL. Did you save the Winston cigarette package?

Mr. POE. I turned it in with the two cartridges.

Mr. BALL. To the crime lab?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, I have here a package which has been marked "Q"--FBI lab. Q-74 to Q-77. Would you look those over and see if there is any identification on there by you to indicate that those were the hulls given to you by Benavides?

Mr. POE. I want to say these two are mine, but I couldn't swear to it.

Mr. BALL. Did you make a mark?

Mr. POE. I can't swear to it; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. But there is a mark on two of these?

Mr. POE. There is a mark. I believe I put on them, but I couldn't swear to it, I couldn't make them out any more.

Mr. BALL. Now, the ones you said you made a mark on are--you think it is these two? Q-77 and Q-75?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir; those two there.

Mr. BALL. Both marked Western Special? They both are marked Western Special. How long did you stay there?

Mr. POE. At the scene?

Mr. BALL. Uh-huh.

Mr. POE. I stayed there until Leavelle and his partner from the crime lab got there.

Mr. BALL. Then you left?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir; I got out and helped try to find the suspect.

Mr. BALL. Were you at the Texas Theatre?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him apprehended?

Mr. POE. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You were out?

Mr. POE. At the back.

Mr. BALL. At the back?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I think that is all, Mr. Poe.

This will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, and you can sign it if you wish, or waive your signature.

Which do you prefer?

Mr. POE. Well, sir; I don't have anything to hide. I will tell the truth.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to give your signature?

Mr. POE. I will sign it.

Mr. BALL. Okay. We'll do that. We can notify you and you can come up here and sign it.

Mr. POE. All right.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN GIBSON

The testimony of John Gibson was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you please rise and hold up your hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GIBSON. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. GIBSON. John Gibson.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. GIBSON. I am manager of a retail store.

Mr. BALL. What kind of retail store is that?

Mr. GIBSON. It's Elko Camera store.

Mr. BALL. What is the address of the Elko Camera Store?

Mr. GIBSON. 239 West Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. Near the Texas Theatre?

Mr. GIBSON. I'm four doors from the Texas Theatre.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born, Mr. Gibson?

Mr. GIBSON. I was born in Brashear, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. GIBSON. Woodrow Wilson High School.

Mr. BALL. Here in Dallas?

Mr. GIBSON. In Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Well, what have you done since you got out of school?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, after I got out of school I went in service in the Navy and stayed in there 2 years and came back and went to work for Snap-Shots, Inc., and then went to work for Hermetic Seal in Garland, and then went to work for Elko.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did you go to a picture show that day?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day?

Mr. GIBSON. It was at 1 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. Do you go to the picture show very often--that particular theatre--the Texas Theatre?

Mr. GIBSON. Like I said--that's on Friday and that is depending on business.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day do you usually go on Friday?

Mr. GIBSON. About 1 o'clock--the same time I always go to lunch.

Mr. BALL. Where did you sit on this Friday, November 22, 1963?

Mr. GIBSON. I sat in the first chair from the rear on the far right-hand side.

Mr. BALL. Is that where you always sit?

Mr. GIBSON. That's where I always sit--that's my chair.

Mr. BALL. I have a picture here of the theatre, which I will have marked as Exhibit A, and will you look at that picture? Does that look like the interior of the Texas Theatre to you?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir; it's got more light on it than I've seen most of the time--that looks like it.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as Gibson Exhibit No. A, for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is the seat in which you usually sit shown in that picture?

Mr. GIBSON. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where is that seat with reference to the picture?

Mr. GIBSON. Further to the left--from the main seating in the very back--it would be just past him.

Mr. BALL. There's a man sitting in the back in the first seat in the center aisle?

Mr. GIBSON. Right, and I would be--to his right.

Mr. BALL. In the same row?

Mr. GIBSON. In the same row.

Mr. BALL. To his right facing the screen?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And on the other aisle, is that correct?

Mr. GIBSON. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the lights come on in that theatre?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Had you paid any attention to other people who had come in the theatre before the lights came on?

Mr. GIBSON. No.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what happened after the lights came on?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, when the lights came on, of course, as I said before, I know most of the people that work there in the show and I got up and started to the front to ask where the head usher or the girl was that works these lights--if something was wrong--I thought maybe they had a fire.

Mr. BALL. You say you started to the front, you mean you started into the lobby?

Mr. GIBSON. I started to the lobby, and just before I got to the door there were two or three--anyway the first police officer that got to me was carrying a shotgun, I remember that, and he says, "Is there anybody in the balcony?"

I said, "I don't know." He went on up into the balcony and I stood around out in the lobby for--I don't know--a minute or something, I guess, and they kept coming in and I stepped back inside the theatre just standing just behind where I had been sitting and I would say there were at least six or possibly more policemen downstairs. The rest of them were going upstairs.

Mr. BALL. What did you see happen?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, I was standing there watching all this going on and then the policeman started down the aisle--I would say there was another--I don't know, maybe six or eight--started down the aisles.

Mr. BALL. When you say "down the aisles," you mean all of the aisles?

Mr. GIBSON. Toward the screen--I don't know if they were going down all of them or not. I don't believe there was any--there was one policeman standing, it seems to me like, right on the other side of me, in the far aisle--just behind me--I don't think there was anybody going down the far aisle next to the wall on my side.

Mr. BALL. What aisles did you see policemen going down?

Mr. GIBSON. I saw them going down what I would call the two big center aisles, and then the next thing was--Oswald was standing in the aisle with a gun in his hand.

Mr. BALL. That's the next thing you saw?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there anybody with him--near him?

Mr. GIBSON. I couldn't swear to that--I don't know--you mean other policemen?

Mr. BALL. That's what I mean--was he in the aisles?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, he was in the aisle when I saw him.

Mr. BALL. What was he doing?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, he had this pistol in his hand.

Mr. BALL. Was anybody near him?

Mr. GIBSON. Just the officers.

Mr. BALL. What was the officer doing--did you say officers or police officer?

Mr. GIBSON. Officers.

Mr. BALL. Plural, officers?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes; there were more than one.

Mr. BALL. What were they doing?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, they were going toward him.

Mr. BALL. Did they have ahold of him at the time?

Mr. GIBSON. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. Did anyone have ahold of him at that time?

Mr. GIBSON. I don't think so.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer grab hold of Oswald?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which one--can you describe where he was and what he did--just tell us in your own words what you saw him do?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, just like--I guess you have heard this a lot of times--the gun misfired--it clicked and about the same time there was one police officer that positively had him.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean--"had him"?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, I mean he grabbed ahold of him.

Mr. BALL. Did he grab ahold of him before you heard the click or afterwards?

Mr. GIBSON. Gee, that's a question that's kind of hard to answer because I would say possibly seconds before or a second--maybe at the precise time the gun clicked. It happened pretty fast and like I say, I just went in to eat a hot-dog for lunch and I wasn't expecting any of this.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer strike Oswald?

Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; not directly; I saw them take him to the floor.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald strike any officer?

Mr. GIBSON. [Shaking head for negative answer.]

Mr. BALL. You did not?

Mr. GIBSON. Not that I saw.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody say anything?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, I heard the officers, but I don't remember what they said--I couldn't tell you if my life depended on it.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. GIBSON. No.

Mr. BALL. You mentioned the fact that they took him to the floor, you mean they actually went down in the floor of the theatre or close to it?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, from where I was standing and looking across--they took him to the floor.

Mr. BALL. Were there any seats in the way when they fell?

Mr. GIBSON. No; I was standing up--yes; there was seats in the way, but I was looking at an angle.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald fall on the seats or on the floor?

Mr. GIBSON. They fell on the floor as best I could tell.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you see happen?

Mr. GIBSON. I didn't see anything happen--I walked back to the front.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald leave the theatre?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes; I saw the officers bring him out.

Mr. BALL. Describe what you saw at that time--I want to know how they had ahold of him?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, right after they took him to the floor, as I said, he had a gun in his hand and I turned around and walked back into the lobby, the front part of the theatre, and just right after I walked out into the lobby, one of the policemen yelled, "Lock the doors," and so I walked up and started locking the doors and the head usher, Butch, came running out and he started at one end and I started at the other end. There was six or eight doors in the front, and we locked them up and then they brought Oswald through the door--there was two police officers that had ahold of him, and his arms were bent around behind him--like so [indicating].

Mr. BALL. And did the officer have his arm around his neck?

Mr. GIBSON. I don't know--I don't think so--he did have a black eye and his shirt was about halfway torn off of him.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. GIBSON. He said, "I protest police brutality."

Mr. BALL. At any time did you see an officer, while the officers were struggling, with Oswald, did you see an officer strike Oswald with the butt of a shotgun?

Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a shotgun in the hands of any of the officers who were struggling with Oswald?

Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer in possession of a shotgun in the theatre?

Mr. GIBSON. Oh--yes, yes; I saw quite a few in possession of a shotgun.

Mr. BALL. Were there any officers with shotguns near Oswald when he was struggling with these other officers?

Mr. GIBSON. Gee, I don't know--that, I couldn't say--because like I say, when they took him down to the floor, all I could--or I should say down--I turned around and went back to the front.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the police talk to the other patrons of the theatre?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, as I said, the only thing that they said to me--the first policeman that I saw in the theatre was right after the lights came on and he asked me if there was anyone upstairs, but I can't definitely say I saw them talking to anybody.

Mr. BALL. Well, did any officers talk to you afterwards and get your name and address?

Mr. GIBSON. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you see them take the name and address of anybody else?

Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; right after they put Lee Oswald in the police car and drove off, I walked outside and went back over to the store.

Mr. BALL. I understood that one group of the police headed for Oswald?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, I don't believe they really headed for him--I believe they just started down through the theatre. From what the boy told me--Johnny Pardis told me, he followed him into the theatre and he went upstairs, and I believe this is why all the policemen went upstairs. I don't think they really headed for him. I mean, they just evidently, as I said, all of them went upstairs, with the exception of a small majority, say 6 or 8, maybe 12 downstairs and inside the theatre there.

Mr. BALL. Did they pass you on their way?

Mr. GIBSON. You mean up the stairs?

Mr. BALL. No; the smaller party that was downstairs.

Mr. GIBSON. No; I was standing on this far side right next to the wall.

Mr. BALL. And they were in an aisle over there?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, actually, they were two or three aisles over--there's two big main aisles, and then there's another small aisle that runs down the wall.

Mr. BALL. Was there any other patron of the theatre along the way that they went?

Mr. GIBSON. I don't know this, as I said, for a fact--this is what a lady at the show told me. She sent Butch, the head usher up on the stage to guard the exit back there and where he come from I don't know, because as I said, when they took him to the floor, then I turned around and walked out into the lobby and one officer hollered, "Lock the doors," and Butch came through there to the doors.

Mr. BALL. But you didn't see other officers go up to any other patrons of the theatre over there on their way to Oswald?

Mr. GIBSON. No.

Mr. BALL. As they went along--they finally walked up and outside?

Mr. GIBSON. No; they were just looking in general it appeared to me.

Mr. BALL. Was there anyone who was sitting closer to them than Oswald was?

Mr. GIBSON. Gosh--I don't know--it's hard to remember, when you try.

Mr. BALL. You don't know why they went up to him and not someone else?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, as I said--I don't think they went up to him. As I said, the first time I saw him in the theatre definitely was when he was standing in the aisle with a gun in his hand. Now, somebody told me that Oswald jumped up and whirled around and said, "This is it," but this is something I don't know, so this is hearsay.

Mr. BALL. But would you think he stood up first before any police officer got to him? Or that near him?

Mr. GIBSON. He had to, because they took him from a standing position to the floor and he was standing up.

Mr. BALL. Did you see them before they came up to him?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes; I was watching them there, I was just standing in the corner--as I said, just looking around the corner--there is a chance you can see in the corner and I was looking around it and as I said, I don't know whether he got up and whirled around or what he did, but when I saw him he was facing the police with a gun in his hand.

Mr. BALL. The first you saw him he was standing?

Mr. GIBSON. He was standing.

Mr. BALL. And you didn't hear him say anything except on his way out?

Mr. GIBSON. Except on his way out--is the only thing I heard him say.

Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you can come down and sign it if you want to, or you can waive your signature. What would you like to do?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, I said it, I might as well sign it.

Mr. BALL. Okay. You will be called in to come down and sign it.

Mr. GIBSON. Thanks very much.

Mr. BALL. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES PUTNAM

The testimony of James Putnam was taken at 11 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Mr. ELY. Would you stand up and be sworn, please?

Mr. PUTNAM. All right.

Mr. ELY. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PUTNAM. I do.

Mr. ELY. Would you state your name, please?

Mr. PUTNAM. James Putnam.

Mr. ELY. And where do you live?

Mr. PUTNAM. 2015 Joan Drive.

Mr. ELY. What is your occupation?

Mr. PUTNAM. Police officer--sergeant of police.

Mr. ELY. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. PUTNAM. Ten years and four months.

Mr. ELY. Could you give us something of your background before you started to work for the police department--where you went to school and what you did before you became a policeman?

Mr. PUTNAM. Is this pertinent?

Mr. ELY. Where did you go to school?

Mr. PUTNAM. Is this pertinent to the deposition? Well, if you want it, I will give it to you. I went to school at Charleston, S.C. and I was in the Navy for about 7 years.

Mr. ELY. And did you go directly from the Navy to the police department?

Mr. PUTNAM. No; from the Navy I went to work for Lone Star Gas Co. here in Dallas. From there I went to work for Prudential Insurance Co. from which I was recalled into the Navy again, and when I was released, I went back to the insurance company, and from there I applied for employment with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. ELY. Thank you, sergeant. Now, on November 22, 1963, were you on duty with the police department?

Mr. PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. ELY. Did your duties on that day involve you in any way in the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. PUTNAM. Yes.

Mr. ELY. What was the nature of your involvement with that investigation?

Mr. PUTNAM. Just to assist in covering of the Book Depository Building and aiding in searching the building.

Mr. ELY. Did your duties involve you in any way in the investigation of the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mr. PUTNAM. No.

Mr. ELY. Could you state the nature of your specialty with the police department? What sort of work do you specialize in?

Mr. PUTNAM. My assignment then and now is sergeant of police, supervising patrolmen in the radio patrol division.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Putnam Exhibit No. 1," for identification.)

Mr. ELY. Sergeant, I will show you first a map which is designated Putnam Deposition Exhibit No. 1, and I will also show you two documents designated Sawyer Exhibits A and B, which purport to be transcripts of radio logs from the 22d of November. Now, although you would have no personal knowledge of where Officer Tippit was assigned that day, assume for purposes of my questioning that his original assignment on the 22d of November was within the area marked 78 on Putnam Exhibit 1. Can you tell me within which district the corner of Lancaster and Eighth Street is?

Mr. PUTNAM. District 109.

Mr. ELY. And is it correct that here on the exhibit marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A there is a call recorded at 12:54 p.m., from 78 to 531 reporting he was at Lancaster and 8th?

Mr. PUTNAM. Yes; there is.

Mr. ELY. Now, assuming that Officer Tippit was originally assigned to the district numbered 78, taking into account the report that at 12:54 he was within the district marked 109, and also assuming that he later was shot within the district marked 91, would you look at these radio logs and tell us if you find on either one of them any calls which would account for the fact that he had thus come in toward the center of town from the district he was originally assigned to? Feel free to draw upon your general knowledge of the custom in the Dallas Police Department for leaving, or remaining in, one's assigned district.

Mr. PUTNAM. One transmission here on channel 1, that would be the normal channel that Tippit would be listening to, at 12:43 p.m. on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B, is to the attention of all squads in the downtown area, code 3 to Elm and Houston, and with Officer Tippit being assigned to district 78 and allowed the discretion that is allowed in the Dallas Police Department--he would start in the direction of the downtown area. A feasible route would bring him to district 109 and that vicinity.

Mr. ELY. Is there any special reason why that would be a feasible route?

Mr. PUTNAM. This Houston Street, if you will notice right in this corner--Houston Street adjoins district 109. It is one of the routes you can use to cross the river into the downtown area. This would be the normal procedure as far as Officer Tippit was concerned, to come in toward the downtown area, unless disregarded and a later transmission on channel 2, after getting his location, advised him to remain at large in the Oak Cliff area. "At large," would indicate that he would feel free to go nearer in the Oak Cliff area, with the idea in mind that he would be looking for any suspect or any suspicious circumstance that might be related to the shooting.

Mr. ELY. Are districts 78, 109, and 91 all located within the Oak Cliff area?

Mr. PUTNAM. They are located in the Oak Cliff area.

Mr. ELY. All right, thank you, Sergeant Putnam, I believe that's all.

TESTIMONY OF LT. RIO S. PIERCE

The testimony of Lt. Rio S. Pierce was taken at 11:25 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Mr. ELY. Would you stand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PIERCE. I do.

Mr. ELY. Lieutenant, I am here as a representative of the President's Commission which is looking into all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and we have been informed that you might have information which would help us in this inquiry.

Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please?

Mr. PIERCE. Rio Sam Pierce.

Mr. ELY. And where do you live?

Mr. PIERCE. 3227 South Edgefield.

Mr. ELY. Could you tell us what your occupation is?

Mr. PIERCE. Officer--police officer.

Mr. ELY. And what rank do you hold?

Mr. PIERCE. Lieutenant.

Mr. ELY. You are a lieutenant with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. PIERCE. That's right.

Mr. ELY. Could you tell us something about what you did before you started to work for the police department?

Mr. PIERCE. Well, I was raised on a farm out in West Texas and engaged in farming practically all of my life up until I went in the Marine Corps. After I got out of the Marine Corps in 1946, in April I believe it was, I came to the Dallas Police Department in August 1946.

Mr. ELY. Could you tell us, please, what your job is? What do you specialize in with the police department?

Mr. PIERCE. I am assigned as a lieutenant in the patrol division out of the central station.

Mr. ELY. Now, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. PIERCE. I was not.

Mr. ELY. Were you in Dallas on that date?

Mr. PIERCE. Part of the day. I went to Ennis, Tex., early that morning and returned to Dallas about--oh, it was approximately 1 or 1:30 p.m.

Mr. ELY. Did you have anything to do with the investigation of the killing of either President Kennedy or Officer Tippit?

Mr. PIERCE. No, sir.

Mr. ELY. I will show you three exhibits, one is a map designated Putnam Exhibit No. 1. The other two are designated Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B, and are copies of the Dallas Police Department's radio logs for November 22, 1963.

If you will for the moment assume that Officer Tippit was assigned to patrol the district marked No. 78 on Putnam Exhibit No. 1. Can you explain why, subsequent to the shooting of the President, Officer Tippit would be in the district marked 109--specifically at the corner of Lancaster and Eighth--at 12:54 p.m., and then would later have proceeded into district 91, which is the area in which he was shot and killed?

Will you look at these radio logs to see if you can find any calls which would lead him to take this route? Use any other information at your disposal to explain to us why he would have gone out of district 78 and over into Nos. 109 and 91?

Mr. PIERCE. Well, I see one transmission here that I think would have alerted any officer knowing the fact that the President was in town, at 12:43--I believe this occurred on channel 1--this was taken from channel 1 recordings at 12:43. It says, "Attention all squads of downtown area, code 3 to Elm and Houston with caution."

Mr. ELY. Explain what code 3 means.

Mr. PIERCE. That's an emergency. In other words, that is, we have code 1, which is normal driving; we have code 2, and a code 3. In other words, code 3 is your top--proceed with haste and caution. The transmission followed that at 12:44, "Attention all squads, the suspect in the shooting at Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male," and gives the description here--would also be an indication to the squads, and reading this--and I assume that this is the way it came out--a man would have to draw his own judgment, because it hasn't told you yet that the President has been shot, but I would think that any normal police officer would assume that there had been something pertaining to that, probably, and it would be normal procedure for him working in the district he is working in to pull into a closer area to the downtown area, and this district 109, which is, I believe you stated, that as being at Eighth and Lancaster--it doesn't show here on your map, but you have no viaduct--that's about the only place you can cross that river, unless you want to wade.

Mr. ELY. Could you mark on the exhibit with your red pencil where that viaduct would be?

Mr. PIERCE. Well, you see, Cadiz Street over here in the downtown area--it also crosses this river and comes on out--may or may not be nearly correct--it isn't too far from wrong--I don't think so--there is two viaducts.

Mr. ELY. The red mark you have just drawn is what?

Mr. PIERCE. The red mark is one viaduct that crosses that river and the area where he was at that time, I will just have to use this--Lancaster Street comes in something like that--it isn't marked on here.

Mr. ELY. All right.

Mr. PIERCE. But, he wouldn't be too far from that Cadiz Street viaduct. Anyway, they come over that Cadiz Street viaduct, and also you have quite a few apartment houses along there on Lancaster and Marsalis. In other words, there is a large number of people that live over in there. That seemed to me like he was probably using pretty good judgment in getting in that particular area because he would have a chance there to assist from the downtown area there.

Mr. ELY. This transmission to which you referred, the one appearing at 12:43 p.m. on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, purports to be directed only to all squads in the downtown area?

Mr. PIERCE. That's right.

Mr. ELY. But you think it would be normal even for those squads not located in the downtown area to react?

Mr. PIERCE. I would have to call on my experience in the Dallas Police Department. Under normal police procedure we request that the squads stay in their district, but under any emergency situation we do not require that they stay in their district.

Mr. ELY. So, you would characterize this as a normal course of behavior?

Mr. PIERCE. It looks like a normal procedure to me.

Mr. ELY. All right. Do you think of anything else that you would want to mention in connection with this, or do you think that just about covers it?

Mr. PIERCE. Well, like I say, I was on my day off and I would just have to assume what was happening, but I don't know anything in connection with Tippit, but in this location, if that is what you are interested in, that would not be unusual.

Mr. ELY. Well, that's what we are interested in. Thank you very much.

Mr. PIERCE. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF CALVIN BUD OWENS

The testimony of Calvin Bud Owens was taken at 11:50 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Mr. ELY. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. OWENS. I do.

Mr. ELY. Sergeant, I am here as a representative of the President's Commission, which is investigating all of the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and we have reason to believe that you might be able to give us some information which would help us.

Mr. OWENS. All right.

Mr. ELY. Could you state your full name, please?

Mr. OWENS. Calvin Bud Owens.

Mr. ELY. And where do you live, sir?

Mr. OWENS. 1830 Melbourne [spelling] M-e-l-b-o-u-r-n-e.

Mr. ELY. In Dallas?

Mr. OWENS. That's right.

Mr. ELY. What is your occupation?

Mr. OWENS. I am a police officer.

Mr. ELY. And what rank do you hold in the police department?

Mr. OWENS. Sergeant.

Mr. ELY. How long have you been with the police department?

Mr. OWENS. Twenty-three and a half years.

Mr. ELY. Could you give us a general idea of what you did before you went with the department?

Mr. OWENS. How far back?

Mr. ELY. Starting with your schooling, let's say.

Mr. OWENS. Most of my schooling was in Dallas. I was born in Madill [spelling] M-a-d-i-l-l, Okla. I started school in Wilburton, Okla., and from there to Shawnee, Okla., and from there to Ennis, Tex., and then to Dallas, and then I went through Winnetka. I'll say I graduated from City Park Grammar School and Forest Avenue High School. After I got out of school in the depression, I went to work at the Baker Hotel as a bellhop. I left there and went up to Oklahoma for approximately a year, came back and went to work at Sears, Roebuck and worked there 2-1/2 years, and then went to work for the public works department in construction, as a chainman in a survey crew until, let's see, that was in 1938. I worked their until the spring of 1940. I worked 2 months in the fire department, left, and went back to engineers. In October 1940, I went to work in the police department. December 1, 1942, I went in the Navy and got out January 6, 1946, and I returned to the police department.

Mr. ELY. And you have been there ever since?

Mr. OWENS. Yes.

Mr. ELY. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. OWENS. I was.

Mr. ELY. And what was the nature of your assignment on that date?

Mr. OWENS. Acting lieutenant, Oak Cliff substation.

Mr. ELY. Because you were acting lieutenant in the Oak Cliff substation, would that mean that Officer Tippit would be under your supervision?

Mr. OWENS. That's true.

Mr. ELY. When and how did you first hear that there had been an incident involving the President of the United States?

Mr. OWENS. I had eaten lunch and I was on the way back to the substation--channel 1 was not working properly--some mike--or some radio transmitter had left the mike open and I couldn't hear, and I switched over to channel 2 and heard what sounded like Chief Curry say, "It looks like the President has been hit," so, not knowing what he had been hit with, I go in the substation and hear on the radio where they are sending squads downtown to Elm and Houston, and I called the dispatcher's office and wanted to know if they wanted me downtown. They were very busy and never did answer me, so from that, I assumed that there was a big incident involved and maybe the President had been shot, so I leave 4020 West Illinois where the substation is located and proceed to Elm and Houston, code 3.

Mr. ELY. And what does code 3 mean?

Mr. OWENS. It means emergency with red lights and siren on.

Mr. ELY. Thank you.

Mr. OWENS. I arrived at Elm and Houston, which is the location of the Texas School Book Depository. Before I arrived, the squad was dispatched to pick up a man--an officer on Stemmons, who had a colored man, who had information regarding the shooting. Since I was close, I stopped and picked up a colored man, a lady and two children, and take them to Elm and Houston, and notified Inspector Sawyer of what I had. He informed me to send them to the sheriff's office where they had set up this interrogation room. I turned them over to a patrolman there with the instructions to take them over to the sheriff's office. I stayed with Inspector Sawyer until I was informed that there was a shooting in Oak Cliff involving a police officer.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall the name of this colored man?

Mr. OWENS. No. I told Inspector Sawyer that I was assigned to Oak Cliff and an officer was involved in the shooting, and I was taking off, so I proceeded--I got in my car, and Captain Westbrook and Bill Alexander, an assistant district attorney, also was in the car with me and we started out to--I think the call came out at 400 East 10th or 400 East Jefferson. There was confusion there where the situation was. It was corrected and we went to the scene of the shooting.

Now, right there--here's where I'm not quite sure--I don't know whether I was given the gun and all--but I believe I was given the gun and this was Tippit's gun and shells.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall who gave them to you?

Mr. OWENS. No; some officer, but I don't know who it was.

Mr. ELY. And how long did you have the gun and shells in your custody?

Mr. OWENS. Well, I had them at the hospital and we put them in a paper envelope, a large paper envelope with some more of his possessions.

Mr. ELY. Did you make any identifying marks on them?

Mr. OWENS. No; they were his city issued--his own gun.

Mr. ELY. And do you recall whom you gave them to eventually?

Mr. OWENS. No; I believe it was Barton--I'm not sure. I couldn't say positively who I gave them to, to go put them in the property room. In fact, I don't even know whether I gave them to anybody. I might have taken them out to the Oak Cliff substation and put them in our property room--I don't know.

Mr. ELY. Now, you were back at the stage where somebody had given you the gun, and let's go on from there.

Mr. OWENS. Yes--we were informed by a man whom I do not know, that the suspect that shot Officer Tippit had run across a vacant lot toward Jefferson, and thrown down his jacket, I think he said, white, I'm not sure. Not finding anybody that had seen him come out of that area, we blocked off that square block.

Mr. ELY. Can you tell us specifically what block you blocked off?

Mr. OWENS. I believe it was the 400 block of East Jefferson--the 400 or 500 block. It was this block bound by Jefferson, 10th, Patton, and Denver--I believe that was the area. Then we started searching the buildings and houses--there are some old two-story houses there used as businesses.

Mr. ELY. What was the nature of your search of these buildings? Did you just look through the halls?

Mr. OWENS. Well, I didn't go in. I was standing on the outside and the other officers were going in. I was covering off. Then, we heard over the radio that some officer, who by the number, I took to be a three-wheeler motorcycle officer had seen someone answering the description, go into the basement of the library, which is on the corner of Marsalis and Jefferson, which was about two blocks away. Quite a few of us left that area we were at and proceeded to the library, covered it off, and they brought out the one that they thought was the suspect, but he fit the general description, but he was not the one we were looking for. He was an employee of the library that heard the President had gotten shot and he had been to lunch and he was running over there to tell them that the President got shot.

Mr. ELY. In other words, someone saw this employee run into the library, and that's the reason you came in. He had just run into the library?

Mr. OWENS. That's the man that had run across Jefferson and run into the basement of the library, so I went back to the scene of the shooting of Officer Tippit and another call had come and some of my men yelled to me that they had a suspect in the Texas Theatre, and everyone left there, but nobody was left to help guard the scene except the crime lab man, so I remained at the scene, and everybody else went to the Texas Theatre.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember who the crime lab man was who was there?

Mr. OWENS. At the time I thought it was Captain Doughty [spelling] D-o-u-g-h-t-y. They finished up taking the pictures and I left the scene and went to Methodist Hospital where Officer Tippit had been taken, and I was taken back to the room where he was taken, and in just a brief examination of the body I saw where one bullet had entered his right chest about the pocket and went through a package of cigarettes. Another one hit him about the center of the chest and hit a button, and another one, I believe, was in his right temple, I'm not sure which temple it was, but those three wounds, I did see. I don't know whether he was shot any more or not. I remained at the hospital for quite a time, and then I went back to the Oak Cliff substation where I was assigned.

Mr. ELY. And because you were assigned to the Oak Cliff substation, you at no time during these 2 days or so went into the main police headquarters; is that correct?

Mr. OWENS. What, now?

Mr. ELY. You didn't go to the main police headquarters because you were assigned to the Oak Cliff substation?

Mr. OWENS. No; that's right.

Mr. ELY. Now, I show you a map which is labeled Putnam Deposition Exhibit No. 1. Could you tell us what sort of a map this is?

Mr. OWENS. It is what we call a district map of the various districts of the city of Dallas.

Mr. ELY. The various districts to which patrolmen are assigned, is that correct?

Mr. OWENS. It is what it was set up for. Now, there isn't a squad for each numbered district. Some squads have two or more numbers. I mean, the districts cover that.

Mr. ELY. And could you tell us to which district or districts on that map Officer Tippit was assigned on November 22, 1963?

Mr. OWENS. He was assigned to district 78. Now, I don't know whether we were short any squads that day or not, and if we were, he would be assigned to cover another district also. His call number would still be 78.

Mr. ELY. Would his call number be 78 even if he were outside the district?

Mr. OWENS. Oh, yes.

Mr. ELY. I show you now one of the radio logs which is designated "Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A." Am I correct in saying that at 12:54 p.m., according to this log, Officer Tippit reported by radio that he was then at the corner of Lancaster and Eighth?

Mr. OWENS. That's right.

Mr. ELY. Now, in which district on this map would the corner of Lancaster and Eighth fall?

Mr. OWENS. In district 109.

Mr. ELY. That would be district 109. In which district on the map was Officer Tippit shot?

Mr. OWENS. In district 91.

Mr. ELY. Now, we would like to have your opinion as to why Officer Tippit, who was assigned to district 78, would have been in district 109 at 12:54 p.m. and then later in district 91? In giving us your answer, please feel free to refer to both of these radio logs, which are Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B, and also draw upon your experience with the Dallas Police Department and the common procedure for reacting to an emergency.

Mr. OWENS. It says here on channel 1, this is Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, "Attention all squads in the downtown area, code 3, to Elm and Houston with caution," and knowing that the President's parade was going to be down in that area and also at 12:44 this: "attention all squads, the suspect in the shooting, Elm and Houston, is reported to be an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, height, 5 feet 6 inches, weight, 165 pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a .30 caliber rifle, no further description or information at this time;" and then it recites at 12:45 signal 19 involving the President--that was at 12:45----

Mr. ELY. And signal 19 means what?

Mr. OWENS. A shooting--anything of that magnitude in the shooting of the President is one of the greatest magnitudes, and any officer would proceed as near that location as possible to try to apprehend whoever had done it.

Mr. ELY. Well, would somebody in an outlying district head for Elm and Houston itself, or would he just come in closer?

Mr. OWENS. He would move in that direction, and when they had ordered all downtown squads to proceed to Elm and Houston, knowing that he was going to have to answer calls in the downtown area while they are there, and if you know that in all probability you may get called in, and--instead of the district you are in, you are going to head down there so it won't take you near as long, and also you can still be in the area if the suspect comes your way, you will have a better chance of apprehending him.

Mr. ELY. So, you think Tippit might have been filling in for the people whom he knew had been pulled in to Elm and Houston?

Mr. OWENS. That's what I think--not only filling in, but also looking for the suspect, because he heard about the shooting and the general description of the suspect, and not knowing which way he went, but he could have gone any way, then he is going to head downtown as soon as possible so if he sees someone answering that description, he can apprehend him.

Mr. ELY. You would say it would be normal procedure for an officer in district 78, which is located out in the outlying districts, to head downtown in any emergency?

Mr. OWENS. That's true.

Mr. ELY. Could you perhaps give us an explanation of why he headed over toward 109 and 91? That doesn't seem to be the most direct route.

Mr. OWENS. According to this map--it doesn't show all the things on there--it looks like you would have to zigzag quite a bit, but you wouldn't. You could go down Corinth Street and go across the viaduct, but that would get him down on Industrial, which would still be a lot of traffic to go through. He could go down Clarendon to Marsalis and go North Ewing and then get over to Lancaster, and a would give him a straight shoot to the Houston Street viaduct, which would take him right to Elm and Houston.

Mr. ELY. So that you think a path of going from 78 to 109 to 91 would be a more or less logical route for getting into the center of town?

Mr. OWENS. Yes; I do.

Mr. ELY. On the 22d of November, did you, yourself, have an area which you were patroling?

Mr. OWENS. I was supervising all of the Oak Cliff area, and since I was acting lieutenant, and I made the assignments for that day, I was at the station at 4020 West Illinois at the time.

Mr. ELY. In which numbered area is that located?

Mr. OWENS. That would be on district 97, and no one sent me, but when I heard all of this--so many squads getting called to report there, then I went.

Mr. ELY. You headed toward the downtown area yourself?

Mr. OWENS. Yes; I went to Elm and Houston myself.

Mr. ELY. Even though you didn't have a specific order to go in there either?

Mr. OWENS. That's right--that's true.

Mr. ELY. Officer McDonald, who testified before the Commission, told us that he went to the corner of Elm and Houston, do you know which numbered area on this map he was assigned to?

Mr. OWENS. He was working district 95, which covers district 95 and 96.

Mr. ELY. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record between Counsel Ely and the witness Owens.)

Mr. OWENS. I don't know what district Officer J. L. Angel was working, but it was my understanding that he also went to Elm and Houston.

Mr. ELY. Well, he was working somewhere in the Oak Cliff area, was he?

Mr. OWENS. Yes; he was working in the Oak Cliff area under the same sergeant that Officer Tippit was working under, so he would be in the same general area which covers these districts in here.

Mr. ELY. That would be districts 82 and 85?

Mr. OWENS. No--81, 82, 85, 86, 87, or 76, 77, 78, or 79--that's that sergeant's district.

Mr. ELY. All right, thank you very much, sergeant.

Mr. OWENS. I don't know of anything else--as I say, I couldn't remember where they handed me the gun. I knew it was at the scene because my wife said she saw it on television and I had his gun, and when I asked her about it she said it wasn't the suspect's gun she knew because she has been a policeman's wife long enough to know I wouldn't be handling a gun like that if it was the suspect's.

Mr. ELY. All right, Sergeant, thank you very much.

Mr. OWENS. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ARTHUR SMITH

The testimony of William Arthur Smith was taken at 4:25 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Smith, stand up and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Sit down.

Mr. BALL. State your name, please.

Mr. SMITH. William Arthur Smith.

Mr. BALL. And where do you live?

Mr. SMITH. 328-1/2 East Davis.

Mr. BALL. What is your age?

Mr. SMITH. Twenty.

Mr. BALL. You live with whom? Whom do you live with?

Mr. SMITH. My mother.

Mr. BALL. At this address?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school.

Mr. SMITH. I was born in Pine Bluff, Ark., and went to school Wason Chapel.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mr. SMITH. Three months into the 12th grade.

Mr. BALL. Three months into the 12th grade?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SMITH. Been working ever since, most of the time.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do? Have you done?

Mr. SMITH. Corrugated box.

Mr. BALL. Beg your pardon?

Mr. SMITH. Corrugated box.

Mr. BALL. That is where you are working now?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; working at a metal shop.

Mr. BALL. Any metal shop?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever been in trouble with the police?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of trouble did you get in?

Mr. SMITH. Auto theft.

Mr. BALL. You're on probation now, aren't you?

Mr. SMITH. Two years.

Mr. BALL. Two years? Ever have any other trouble?

Mr. SMITH. Tickets.

Mr. BALL. Just tickets? Traffic tickets?

Mr. SMITH. Two right now.

Mr. BALL. You ever have any trouble as a juvenile?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, on November 22, 1963, were you working any place?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Didn't have a job?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you spend the day that day?

Mr. SMITH. 505 East 10th.

Mr. BALL. Why were you there?

Mr. SMITH. Visiting a friend.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. SMITH. Jimmy Burt.

Mr. BALL. When did you go over there that day?

Mr. SMITH. In the morning. In the morning.

Mr. BALL. In the morning?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day?

Mr. SMITH. In the evening.

Mr. BALL. So, you spent the whole day there?