Chapter II: Part 2

Mr. BALL. You asked Warren Burroughs why he didn't see him, did you?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; we kidded him quite a bit anyway, because some people do then get by him.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mrs. POSTAL. Ah, he said at first that he had seen him, and I says, "Now, Butch, if you saw him come in--" says, "Well, I saw him going out." But he didn't really see him. So, he just summarized that he ran up in the balcony, because if he had come through the foyer, Butch would have seen him.

Mr. BALL. He was arrested, though, down in the orchestra, the second row from the----

Mrs. POSTAL. Third.

Mr. BALL. Third?

Mrs. POSTAL. Three rows down, five seats over.

Mr. BALL. I was trying to say the third row. How could he get from the balcony down there?

Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, that is very easy. You can go up in the balcony and right straight down, those steps come back down, and that would bring you into it. He wouldn't have to go by Butch at all.

Mr. BALL. Oh, I see. And he could get into the balcony without Butch's seeing him?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; if Butch was down in the other end getting something.

Mr. BALL. And he could go in?

Mrs. POSTAL. He could have gotten in.

Mr. BALL. All right. I show you an Exhibit 150, a shirt. Does that look anything like the shirt he had on?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, it was something like this shirt. I couldn't say it is the same except it was brown and it was hanging out.

Mr. BALL. Outside his pants?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Wasn't tucked into his pants?

Mrs. POSTAL. Huh-uh.

Mr. BALL. When he went in was it tucked in his pants when he went in?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; because I remember he came flying around the corner, because his hair was and shirt was kind of waving.

Mr. BALL. And his shirt was out?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. You say----

Mrs. POSTAL. It was hanging out.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Postal, this will be written up and you can read it and sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it on to the Commission without your signature. Now, how do you feel about it? Do you want to do that?

Mrs. POSTAL. I don't know. I mean, this is all new to me anyway.

Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive your signature?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I see no reason why not.

Mr. BALL. Okay. Fine.

Then you don't have to come down and sign it. We will send it without your signature. Thank you, very much for coming in.

TESTIMONY OF WARREN H. BURROUGHS

The testimony of Warren H. Burroughs was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. State your name for the record, please.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Warren H. Burroughs.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live, Mr. Burroughs?

Mr. BURROUGHS. 407 Montreal.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I'm going to private school 2 days a week. I stopped going to public school in the ninth grade.

Mr. BALL. You quit in the ninth grade?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I stopped in the ninth grade, but I'm going to private school 2 days a week over in Highland Park.

Mr. BALL. You are now?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; I am now.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Twenty-two.

Mr. BALL. What have you been doing most of your life--what kind of work have you been doing?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I worked at the Texas Theatre and I helped my dad out as an apprentice, he is an electrician.

Mr. BALL. Were you ever in the Army?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir--they tried to get me, but I couldn't pass--I passed the physical part, but the mental part--I didn't make enough points on the score, so the board sent me a card back and classifying me different.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were working at the Texas Theatre, were you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of job did you have?

Mr. BURROUGHS. During the week I worked behind the concession. On weekends I usher.

Mr. BALL. On weekends you usher?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. During the week?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I am behind the concession.

Mr. BALL. During the afternoon of the week--do you take tickets too?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes--I take tickets every day.

Mr. BALL. You do?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And, run the concession?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. If anybody comes in there without a ticket, what do you do, run them off?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I make it a point to stop them and ask them to go out and get a ticket. I just failed to see him when he slipped in.

Mr. BALL. We will get to that in a minute--I want to see what you usually do if somebody comes in without a ticket.

Mr. BURROUGHS. I stop them and have them go out to the box office and get an admission ticket.

Mr. BALL. On this day of November 22, 1963, what time did you go to work?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I went to work at 12.

Mr. BALL. You went to work that day at 12?

Mr. BURROUGHS. That day at 12 o'clock--yes.

Mr. BALL. And you later saw a struggle in the theatre between a man and some officers, didn't you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see that man come in the theatre?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I was--I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise--I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.

Mr. BALL. Up to the balcony?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir--first, I think he was up there.

Mr. BALL. At least there was a stairway there?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, there was two.

Mr. BALL. Is there a stairway near the entry?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Of the door--yes. Yes, it goes straight--you come through the door and go straight--you go upstairs to the balcony.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody come in there that day? Up to the time of the struggle between the man and the police--who didn't have a ticket?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Later on the police came in your place?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. They asked you if you had seen a man come in there without a ticket?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I said, "I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before I saw him."

Mr. BALL. Later on, did somebody point out a man in the theatre to you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No--I got information that a man--the police were cruising up and down Jefferson hunting for Oswald, and he ran to a shoestore and then came out and came on up to the Texas, and the man came in and told me that a man fitting that description came in the show and he wanted me to help him find him, and we went and checked the exit doors, he was up in the balcony, I imagine, and then we went back out and the police caught him downstairs.

Mr. BALL. You went to check the exit doors?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. With the shoe salesman?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And were the police out at the exit doors?

Mr. BURROUGHS. They came on--somehow they came in--one came in through the back and the rest of them came in through the front.

Mr. BALL. Did you see them come in through the back when you were back there?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I saw one of them.

Mr. BALL. The exit doors you are talking about were in the back or in the front?

Mr. BURROUGHS. They are at the back--they have one main one going out to the alley and they have one down here by the stage going out to the parking lot, and the other two are upstairs.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any struggle or fight between this man and any police officer?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No; not exactly, because I just had one door open and that was the middle door, and I couldn't see them--that was the main thing.

Mr. BALL. Where were you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I was back behind the concession.

Mr. BALL. How do you get from the exit door in the rear of the theatre to behind the concession?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, the concession is right here [indicating] and the doors are right here, and the theatre is inside, and exit door No. 1 is straight down this way and another one is straight down this way.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what you did after you went to the exit door with the shoe salesman; what did you do?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, he went down to this door and I stayed at this door.

Mr. BALL. You mean at the rear of the theatre?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes--he went down to the rear of the theatre, and I stayed at this door in case he went out one of the exit doors.

Mr. BALL. You stayed there, did you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I stayed there for about 5 minutes and I came back out to the concession.

Mr. BALL. Down the main aisle?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were there police in there at that time?

Mr. BURROUGHS. They were in there checking to see where he was.

Mr. BALL. Was there any struggle going on when you came back from the exit door to the concession?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No.

Mr. BALL. There was not?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear or see any trouble between this man and the police?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I heard a struggle from outside, but I really couldn't tell.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I couldn't hear anything on the inside, but when they brought him out, he was hollering and raising, "I demand my rights," and all that.

Mr. BALL. What else did you hear?

Mr. BURROUGHS. That's about all.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what his appearance was as they brought him out?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, he didn't seem--he seemed like he was mad at everybody.

Mr. BALL. He was?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he shout in a loud voice?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; like--"I demand my rights" [witness holding up both hands above his head.]

Mr. BALL. Anything else?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, they carried him out to the car and there was a mob of people out there--more people than I have ever seen before and they put him in the car and went off.

Mr. BALL. How many officers were with him? When you saw them take him from the theatre?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I believe about three or four.

Mr. BALL. Did any of them have ahold of him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; they had ahold of him--they were dragging him out--I mean they had ahold of him--two on each side.

Mr. BALL. Was he walking or were they dragging him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. He was walking, but he was kind of urged on out the door into the car.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were his hands behind him or in front of him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. They were behind him.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a police officer strike him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with his arm around the neck of this man, who arrested him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a police officer strike this man with the butt of a shotgun?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were any of the officers in the theatre armed with shotguns?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Burroughs, and this will be written up and you can go down and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature right now. Which do you prefer?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I want to come down and sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right. You will be notified to come down and you can read it over and sign it. Thank you very much for coming down here.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Thank you. I hope I helped you some.

Mr. BALL. Yes; I hope you did, too.

Mr. BURROUGHS. I'll see you later.

Mr. BALL. All right. Goodby.

TESTIMONY OF BOB K. CARROLL

The testimony of Bob K. Carroll was taken at 9 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Carroll, would you stand up please and take the oath.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CARROLL. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. CARROLL. Bob K. Carroll.

Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address?

Mr. CARROLL. 814 Redbud, Duncanville, Tex.

Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?

Mr. CARROLL. Detective, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. CARROLL. Ten years and three months.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself? Where were you born?

Mr. CARROLL. I was born here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. CARROLL. Sunset High.

Mr. BALL. And did you go beyond high school?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of high school?

Mr. CARROLL. Actually, I quit high school in 1947 and went to work at Vitalic Battery Co. [spelling] V-i-t-a-l-i-c. I worked there off and on, sometimes I believe during the seasonal layoffs and I would go back when they started rehiring, and I worked there until I went on active duty with the Marine Corps March 1, 1952, and I was released from active duty in May of 1953, and when I returned to Dallas I went to work for James A. Lewis Engineering Co., and I worked for them for approximately 18 months and then I worked 2 months for the Texas Highway Department on a survey crew, and then I joined the Dallas Police Department.

Since I have been in the Dallas Police Department, I have worked the radio and patrol divisions, the accident prevention bureau and the special service bureau. While assigned to the special service bureau, I worked with the narcotics section, the criminal intelligence section and the vice section and the administrative section.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work that day?

Mr. CARROLL. We were instructed to be in the assembly room at 10 a.m. for briefing prior to the arrival of President Kennedy, and at that time I was in the assembly room at 8 a.m.

Mr. BALL. What job was assigned to you that day?

Mr. CARROLL. I was assigned to the 700 block of Main Street.

Mr. BALL. Along the curb--did you stand along the sidewalk?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; to be there, and, of course, there were uniform officers also assigned in that block, but I think they had one detective for each block.

Mr. BALL. How far is 700 Main Street from Houston and Main?

Mr. CARROLL. That would be roughly about three blocks--three or four blocks, maybe.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear the sound of any shots?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. When did you first hear that the President had been shot?

Mr. CARROLL. I had walked around to a tavern around the corner. I was walking down the street and I passed this person I know and I stepped in this tavern to speak to him and I heard it--they turned on the TV just as I walked in the door and I heard it on the TV set.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. CARROLL. I left and went to the office, and when I got to the office I called the dispatcher and they told me to go to the scene and I left the office and went to the garage, which is two blocks from city hall and got a car and reported to the School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. About what time did you get to the School Book Depository?

Mr. CARROLL. Let's see--approximately--let's see, the shooting occurred--it was 12:30, I believe, it was approximately 1 o'clock--maybe a little before, but right around 1 o'clock, and after I got to the Depository, they started organizing search details and I was assigned to search the basement. Well, I went into the basement and we determined that we needed some light in the basement, so I came back upstairs to get some lights, and when I got upstairs I heard that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff, and no one had any information on it and the people I talked to had no information, so I got on the phone, and I called the dispatcher's office. The dispatcher stated it was Officer Tippit who was shot and he was dead, and so when I come back out of the office where I had used the phone, I requested permission to go to Oak Cliff and permission was granted and I took K. E. Lyons, and he and I left for Oak Cliff.

Mr. BALL. Is K. E. Lyons a detective?

Mr. CARROLL. He is a patrolman assigned to the special service bureau. He doesn't work in uniform.

Mr. BALL. He works in plain clothes?

Mr. CARROLL. He works in plain clothes, but his rank is patrolman, but we were in the 300 block of East Jefferson when the call came out on the radio that a suspect had been seen going into the Texas Theatre. We went immediately to the Texas Theatre, which is about five blocks away--I think it is in the 200 block of West Jefferson, and ourselves and the radio patrol unit were the first units to arrive at the theatre, and we pulled to the curb and parked directly in front of the entrance to the theatre, and the radio patrol car pulled into the head-in parking behind us. When Lyons and I went in, a lady that was in the theatre--I don't know who she was--she said he was upstairs, and that was all the conversation I heard from her.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who the lady was?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I have no idea.

Mr. BALL. Was it the girl who sells tickets?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't know, sir, whether it was or not.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever met Julia Postal?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I never have.

Mr. BALL. And where was the lady when you talked to her?

Mr. CARROLL. I didn't actually talk to her, sir, but when we went through the door, she just more or less--she just made a statement that he was upstairs, and as far as having any direct conversation with her, we did not. She said upstairs and we immediately went up to the balcony. All of the house lights were turned on.

Mr. BALL. You and Lyons went in the front door then?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; and we went into the balcony and we had--or rather I had satisfied myself with the fact that he wasn't in the balcony.

Mr. BALL. Was there anyone in the balcony?

Mr. CARROLL. Well, there were people sitting around there.

Mr. BALL. How did you satisfy yourself that he was in the balcony?

Mr. CARROLL. Well, we went in and had more or less a vague idea--well, the people that I saw up in the balcony were either real young or older people and so we started back down----

Mr. BALL. Had you had a description of the man you were looking for?

Mr. CARROLL. They gave me a vague one on the telephone when I called and checked about the officer.

Mr. BALL. Who are "they"?

Mr. CARROLL. Whoever was on duty at the dispatcher's office--I don't know who it was at that time.

Mr. BALL. What was the description that he gave you?

Mr. CARROLL. He just gave a general height description and age--just generally.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what he said.

Mr. CARROLL. I'm trying to recall now exactly--he gave the height and I can't recall now exactly how he said it--it's been so long ago, and it was all--I know he gave roughly, just a rough description. It wasn't a detailed description at all, and I'm trying to remember now exactly how he worded it.

Mr. BALL. Can you give me the approximate age--around?

Mr. CARROLL. I believe he said he was between 20 or 25 or something, like that, I'm not quite sure, because everything moved real fast and everything like that.

Mr. BALL. And you don't have anything from which you can refresh your memory, I suppose?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; not as to that.

Mr. BALL. You didn't make a note of it?

Mr. CARROLL. It was just strictly a telephone conversation--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. At any rate, when you looked at the balcony, did you see anyone who fitted this vague description that had been given you over the telephone by the dispatcher?

Mr. CARROLL. Not that I thought fit it.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. CARROLL. Well, I started down the stairs and was going back down to the lower floor when I heard someone holler something--I believe it was "Here he is," or something like that. I mean, it was a loud holler, you could tell it wasn't just someone talking, and I started running, and Lyons fell--he sprained his ankle--and I started running and I came up to the right of Oswald. I came up to the right and Sergeant Hill to the left, and then Ray Hawkins was in the aisle behind him--he come up in the aisle behind from the left.

Mr. BALL. You came from the left aisle, did you, down the row of seats?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; facing the screen, I came from the right aisle and then come up on Oswald's right.

Mr. BALL. Who came from Oswald's left, facing the screen?

Mr. CARROLL. Jerry Hill--Sgt. Jerry Hill.

Mr. BALL. And then, who came from behind?

Mr. CARROLL. Ray Hawkins.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the sound "I've got him"?

Mr. CARROLL. Just coming off of the stairs from the balcony.

Mr. BALL. And you ran to the orchestra entrance--did you--to the aisle?

Mr. CARROLL. To the aisle from the lobby--you come downstairs into the lower lobby and the aisles lead off the lower lobby, and I come through the lobby and he was sitting rather close, I don't know exactly which row of seats it was, but it was back close to the back of the theatre.

Mr. BALL. And how many seats in from the right aisle, as you faced the screen?

Mr. CARROLL. It was approximately--close to the center of the second bunch of seats.

Mr. BALL. What did you see when you came into the entrance to the aisle?

Mr. CARROLL. I saw standing up at the time--Oswald was standing up there at that time. Several of us were converging at the same time upon him.

Mr. BALL. Where was McDonald?

Mr. CARROLL. He was on Oswald's, let me see, the first time I think I saw Nick was, I believe he was on Oswald's right side.

Mr. BALL. Were they struggling?

Mr. CARROLL. Everyone was struggling with him--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I mean, were Oswald and McDonald struggling together?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; and then when I got up close enough, I saw a pistol pointing at me so I reached and grabbed the pistol and jerked the pistol away and stuck it in my belt, and then I grabbed Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Who had hold of that pistol at that time?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't know, sir. I just saw the pistol pointing at me and I grabbed it and jerked it away from whoever had it and that's all, and by that time then the handcuffs were put on Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Who put them on him?

Mr. CARROLL. I'm not sure who actually put the handcuffs on--I think it was Ray Hawkins.

Mr. BALL. Put them on from behind?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did----

Mr. CARROLL. They were behind him.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. We had one witness testify yesterday that he saw a man with a shotgun strike Oswald in the back with the butt of the gun; did you see that?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I didn't see that.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike him?

Mr. CARROLL. I didn't see anybody strike him--it's possible that someone did, but I didn't see it because I was busy just trying to get him.

Mr. BALL. Did you grab some part of Oswald?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I grabbed him.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. CARROLL. It was below his shoulders, I think I grabbed him by his arm, trying to get one arm behind him or something.

I mean, it all happened so fast--as far as me sitting down and detailing it--I believe it was his right arm.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald saying anything during this struggle?

Mr. CARROLL. Not that you could understand, you know; he was making sounds like normally they will do when you are engaged in some kind of a vigorous scuffle or something like that.

Mr. BALL. What happened then after that?

Mr. CARROLL. Well, after we got the handcuffs on him--it was McDonald and Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins and myself, and I believe there was--I think it was Hutson--we started out of the theatre and we took him out through the main lobby to our car, which was parked right in front where we had left it--where Lyons and I pulled up, and we put him in our car in the back seat and I was driving and Jerry Hill was riding next to me and somewhere after this deal, someway or other--I don't know exactly when it was--Paul Bentley had joined the crowd, and he got into the car in the right-front seat and then Oswald and Hutson, I believe, were in the back seat, and we left there and drove to the police station.

Mr. BALL. After Oswald had been handcuffed, did he say anything?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; as we were bringing him out of the theatre, he hollered that he was going to protest this police brutality. I believe those were his words--the latter part--"Protest the police brutality" were his exact words. The rest of it was what he had done and that he hadn't done nothing and stuff like that.

Mr. BALL. Did he say he hadn't done anything?

Mr. CARROLL. The best I remember that was it--after we had him in the car. We were coming down to the station and he said that he hadn't done anything and he said, "I did have a pistol and I know that that's wrong, but I haven't done anything." That's the best I recall of what he said.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any marks on Oswald's face?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes--there was one, I believe it was on the left--right eye--I can't recall which one it was--I know he had a mark up here, somewhere up here, I believe it was over his left eye--I'm not real sure.

Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald the first time you saw the mark over his eye?

Mr. CARROLL. The first time I remember was after we got him in the car. Of course, I wasn't paying too much attention to the marks or anything right there, we was trying to get him subdued.

Mr. BALL. As he came out of the theatre, was he shouting in a loud voice or speaking softly?

Mr. CARROLL. Well, when we came out the door, it was rather difficult because there was quite a crowd there outside the theatre and it was pretty noisy and several people were hollering, you know--"Kill him," or "Let us have him, and we'll kill him." It was rather noisy, and after we come out of the theatre--I couldn't hear, you know, if he said anything I couldn't actually hear it.

Mr. BALL. Did you shut Oswald up any way--did you do anything to keep his mouth shut?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. A witness testified yesterday--he said that as Oswald came out of the theatre, that there were two men on each side of him and one man behind him that had his arm underneath his chin so as to tilt his head back and close his mouth; do you remember anything like that?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't remember anything like that. I was in front--when we came out of the theatre, I was directly in front of Oswald, and I say "directly"--just almost right in front of him and there were two people, I know, one each side of him had him by his arms, but I did not see anyone holding his mouth or trying to keep his mouth shut.

Mr. BALL. On the way down to the police station, did anyone in the car ask Oswald if he had shot the President?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't think--I don't think they asked him if he shot the President. I don't recall asking him if he shot the President. I think most of the conversation was about Tippit at that time.

Mr. BALL. What do you remember as to that conversation about Tippit at the time?

Mr. CARROLL. Like--he said he hadn't done anything except, well, he said, "I had a pistol, and that's all I've done--just carry a pistol."

Mr. BALL. Did any one officer state to Oswald that he had killed Tippit?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall him just coming out openly and saying, "You killed him," or anything like that. Of course, questions were being asked. I don't remember now who was asking them then, but I was driving the car and I was trying to get him from out there down here as fast as we could.

Mr. BALL. After you took the pistol, what did you do with it?

Mr. CARROLL. The pistol?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. CARROLL. After I took the pistol, I stuck it in my belt immediately. Then, after we got into the car and pulled out from the theater over there, I gave it to Jerry Hill, Sgt. Jerry Hill.

Mr. BALL. And he was sitting in the front seat?

Mr. CARROLL. In the front seat right beside me and in the middle, I think Paul Bentley was sitting on the right side and Jerry was sitting there.

Mr. BALL. And you went down to the police station?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. CARROLL. When we got down in the basement and brought Oswald up, I was in front with everyone else surrounding him and we walked directly from the car to the elevator, got on the elevator and went up to the third floor to the homicide and robbery office and took him right into the homicide and robbery office and took him into one of our interrogation rooms, where we released him to the homicide and robbery office.

Mr. BALL. Whom did you release him to?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall which one of the officers it was--there were several standing around there, but they would just take him and hand him to one particular officer. We just put him in the room and they more or less come in and we would back off.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. CARROLL. I went into the police personnel office.

Mr. BALL. Who went in there with you?

Mr. CARROLL. There was Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins, McDonald, Hutson, Bentley, Lyons, and myself. Oh, by the way, Lyons was in the car with us also when we came from the theatre to the police department. I don't remember whether he was sitting in the front or back seat, though, but he did come down with us.

Lyons had sprained his ankle and Paul Bentley also had sprained his ankle, and shortly after we went into the police personnel office Lyons and Bentley left and went to Parkland to have their legs checked and taken care of.

Mr. BALL. Had you looked at the pistol to see if it was loaded before you got to the personnel office?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; when I gave it to Jerry Hill, he unloaded it.

Mr. BALL. He unloaded it there in the car?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And were you able to see that?

Mr. CARROLL. Wait just a minute--I know he checked the cylinder and I don't recall whether he actually unloaded it at the time or whether he waited to unload it downtown, but I believe he unloaded it there at the car.

Mr. BALL. Anyway, you know it was unloaded in your presence?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes; and I saw the bullets.

Mr. BALL. It was unloaded in your presence?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And how many bullets were there in the cylinder?

Mr. CARROLL. Just--the cylinder was full--six.

Mr. BALL. Six bullets?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. Yes; I believe it was full.

Mr. BALL. Was McDonald there at that time?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall whether he was right there at that moment or not.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine these bullets?

Mr. CARROLL. I looked at them, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything unusual about any one of them?

Mr. CARROLL. Not--just at a glance. No, sir; they just looked like bullets.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine them more carefully at a later time?

Mr. CARROLL. Someone made mention that one of the caps, you know, had a small indent on it, and I looked at it and I could see what looked to me like a hammer might have fallen on it.

Mr. BALL. On the firing pin?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes--the firing pin looked like where the firing pin might have fallen on the cap.

Mr. BALL. It looked like the firing pin had fallen on the cap?

Mr. CARROLL. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And did you see that with your naked eye or did you need a glass?

Mr. CARROLL. Well, when I looked at it, it looked to me like it was just a real light indent.

Mr. BALL. That was without a glass?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you look at it as you were there in the personnel department?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was McDonald there that day?

Mr. CARROLL. I'm sure he was--I don't actually recall him sitting there. He was there most of the time.

Mr. BALL. Did you see McDonald make a mark on the gun?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes; I saw him make a mark.

Mr. BALL. When was this done?

Mr. CARROLL. It was up in the personnel police office.

Mr. BALL. At this meeting that you were just describing?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes; when we were all in there together.

Mr. BALL. And tell me briefly who was present when you saw McDonald make the mark on the gun?

Mr. CARROLL. Well, let's see--there was myself, Mack, I think Ray Hawkins was there, and I believe Hutson was there, and I believe Bentley and Lyons had already gone out to have their feet checked, and I don't recall whether Captain Westbrook was in there at the time or not. There were so many people--I would have to kind of explain that--I know it sounds vague, but there were so many people in and out of there and there were about no less than anywhere from half a dozen to a dozen newspaper reporters in and out and they were bringing in mikes and it was just a big mess of confusion. You couldn't just sit down and detail this thing and say this man was at this particular spot at this time. It was so jumbled up there.

Mr. BALL. Whom did you give the gun to finally?

Mr. CARROLL. After I gave it to--Jerry Hill--that was the last time I had possession of it--possession of the gun.

Mr. BALL. And did you know who took possession of the bullets?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall, sir. I don't recall even seeing the gun or the bullets turned over to anyone by Hill.

Mr. BALL. But you know in the personnel department after you had delivered Oswald to the homicide squadron, you saw the gun and six bullets?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes sir.

Mr. BALL. With this group of officers?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you examined them?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all.

Mr. Carroll, this will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you have the privilege of looking it over and making any corrections and signing it, if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it on to the Commission.

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; all right, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive signature?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I will sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right, then, if you want to sign it, we'll get in touch with you and tell you what time it will be ready and you can come down and look it over.

Mr. CARROLL. All right.

Mr. BALL. All right, fine. Thank you very much for coming in.

Mr. CARROLL. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF BOB K. CARROLL RESUMED

The testimony of Bob K. Carroll was taken at 10 30 a.m., on April 9, 1984, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Will you rise and be sworn, please. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CARROLL. I do, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Your name is?

Mr. CARROLL. Bob K. Carroll.

Mr. BELIN. You previously had your deposition taken here in Dallas by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, have you not?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mr. Ball take that?

Mr. CARROLL. It was Mr. Ball; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About what day was that?

Mr. CARROLL. It was on a Friday, last, I believe. I don't know what day that would be.

Mr. BELIN. Well, today is the following Thursday. At that time we didn't have some of the exhibits here, Officer Carroll, and since then they have come in. I now want to hand you one of the exhibits which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 143 and ask you to state what that is?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. It is a .38 caliber revolver with a blue steel 2" barrel with wooden handle.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen this before?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes; I have.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you first see it?

Mr. CARROLL. I first saw it in the Texas Theatre on November 22, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Would you just tell us about this weapon, when you first saw it?

Mr. CARROLL. The first time I saw the weapon, it was pointed in my direction, and I reached and grabbed it and stuck it into my belt.

Mr. BELIN. What did you happen to be doing at the time?

Mr. CARROLL. At the time, I was assisting in the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whose hand was on the gun when you saw it pointed in your direction?

Mr. CARROLL. No; I do not.

Mr. BELIN. You just jumped and grabbed it?

Mr. CARROLL. I jumped and grabbed the gun; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with it?

Mr. CARROLL. Stuck it in my belt.

Mr. BELIN. And then?

Mr. CARROLL. After leaving the theatre and getting into the car, I released the pistol to Sgt. Jerry Hill.

Mr. BELIN. Sgt. G. L. Hill?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Who drove the car down to the station?

Mr. CARROLL. I drove the car.

Mr. BELIN. Did you give it to him before you started up the car, or after you started up the car, if you remember?

Mr. CARROLL. After.

Mr. BELIN. How far had you driven when you gave it to him?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall exactly how far I had driven.

Mr. BELIN. Did you put any identification mark at all on this weapon?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I did. The initials B. C., right above the screw on the inside of the butt of the pistol.

Mr. BELIN. That is about an inch or so from the bottom of the pistol?

Mr. CARROLL. Approximately an inch from the bottom of the butt of the pistol.

Mr. BELIN. As you hold the pistol pointing, that metal strip is pointing up also, is that correct?

Mr. CARROLL. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you put the initials?

Mr. CARROLL. Where was I, or where did I put the initials on the pistol?

Mr. BELIN. Where were you?

Mr. CARROLL. I was in the personnel office of the city of Dallas police department.

Mr. BELIN. With Sergeant Hill?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, and others who were present.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Sergeant Hill take it out of his pocket or wherever he had it, or not?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What day did you put your initials on it?

Mr. CARROLL. November 22, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. During the drive down from the Texas Theatre, to the police station, do you remember any conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. CARROLL. Some. He stated that he had not done anything that--he said, "Well, I was carrying a pistol, but that is all."

Mr. BELIN. Was he ever asked his name?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; he was asked his name.

Mr. BELIN. Did he give his name?

Mr. CARROLL. He gave, the best I recall, I wasn't able to look closely, but the best I recall, he gave two names, I think. I don't recall what the other one was.

Mr. BELIN. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from the identification?

Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned.

Mr. BELIN. Were any addresses mentioned?

Mr. CARROLL. Not that I recall; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk at any time to Oswald in the car?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I had no conversation with him personally.

Mr. BELIN. You were driving the car?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes. If I looked at him, I would have to turn around.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to him after you got downtown to the station?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear him say anything after he got downtown to the station?

Mr. CARROLL. No; I didn't hear him say anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear anyone say anything about his having an address on North Beckley or on Beckley Street?

Mr. CARROLL. I heard later, but I couldn't say who it was that said it.

Mr. BELIN. When you say later, you mean later than what?

Mr. CARROLL. Later that day.

Mr. BELIN. Was this after you relinquished custody of Oswald?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Up to that time had you heard it?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall hearing it prior to the time I was in the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of, whether we have discussed this or not, that in any way might be relevant?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; because when we brought him out of the car, we took him straight up to the homicide and robbery office and there left him in custody of a homicide and robbery officer.

Mr. BELIN. When this gun, Commission Exhibit 143, was taken by you and then subsequently given to Hill, did you at any time notice whether it was or was not loaded?

Mr. CARROLL. I observed Sergeant Hill unload the gun.

Mr. BELIN. How many bullets were in it?

Mr. CARROLL. It was full. I believe there was six bullets, the best I recall.

Mr. BELIN. All right, sir; we thank you again for making the second trip down, and we are sorry we didn't have the exhibit here when you first testified.

You have an opportunity, if you like, to read your deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive.

Mr. CARROLL. I will sign it.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you will be contacted.

Mr. CARROLL. All right, fine.

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS ALEXANDER HUTSON

The testimony of Thomas Alexander Hutson was taken at 9 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand, please. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HUTSON. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your name?

Mr. HUTSON. Thomas A. Hutson.

Mr. BELIN. And your occupation?

Mr. HUTSON. Police officer for the city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Hutson?

Mr. HUTSON. Thirty-five years.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been a police officer?

Mr. HUTSON. Nine years.

Mr. BELIN. Go to school here in Dallas?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. High school?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Graduate of high school or not?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What school?

Mr. HUTSON. Forest Avenue High School.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got out of high school?

Mr. HUTSON. Went to work for Texas & Pacific Railway in the general office at Elm and Griffin Street as a mail clerk.

Mr. BELIN. How long was that?

Mr. HUTSON. That was in 1947, in July--that is in January of 1947, and I worked there continuously until July of 1948, when I enlisted in the U.S. Army.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you serve in the Army?

Mr. HUTSON. Four years.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?

Mr. HUTSON. I went to Fort Ord, Calif., for basic training, and from there I went to Germany and joined the 1st Infantry Division, and I joined them in October of 1948.

I landed in Germany and I stayed with them in Germany until May of 1951, when I returned to the United States and was stationed at Fort Sam Houston.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do, basically, in Germany?

Mr. HUTSON. I started out in the Infantry, and when I left Germany I was in a more or less administrative part of my Infantry company, doing mail and administrative work in the sergeant's office. Plus, of course, you are primarily an Infantry soldier anyway.

Mr. BELIN. You got back to the States?

Mr. HUTSON. Right. In May of 1951, and I went to Fort Sam Houston, Tex., where I was promoted to Infantry sergeant, platoon sergeant, and there I gave instructions in Infantry tactics.

Mr. BELIN. And eventually you were discharged?

Mr. HUTSON. I went to Camp Pickett, Va., and we were there--this was during the Korean war when I started to train men in Camp Pickett, Va., and I got an extended year from a 3-year enlistment, and I was discharged in July of 1952.

Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HUTSON. I returned to Dallas and went back to work for Texas & Pacific Railway as an interchange clerk in the accounting office.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them?

Mr. HUTSON. I stayed with Texas & Pacific for approximately a year, and at this time I resigned and a lifelong friend and I went into the service station business at Harwood and Grand here in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in the service station business?

Mr. HUTSON. We stayed in the service station business 18 months. I sold my interest to him around February the 5th, and I went to work for the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. What year?

Mr. HUTSON. 1955.

Mr. BELIN. What were your duties in the Dallas Police Department in the fall of 1963?

Mr. HUTSON. I was a 3-wheel motorcycle officer.

Mr. BELIN. Would that have included November 22, 1963?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir; it would.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do in connection with the Presidential motorcade on November 22?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. HUTSON. I was in charge of "no parking" on all of North Harwood Street and Main Street to Field on both sides of the street.

Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed down Main, what did you do?

Mr. HUTSON. I was at Main and Ervay Avenue, and after the motorcade passed, I began to pick up my "No-parking" signs.

Mr. BELIN. Were you at Main and Ervay when the motorcade passed?

Mr. HUTSON. Right.

Mr. BELIN. To direct traffic?

Mr. HUTSON. I was trying--we were trying to hold the noon crowds back that was surging in the street.

Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed, then you started picking up the signs?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?

Mr. HUTSON. As I was picking up the signs, I heard a Signal 19, involving the President of the United States at Elm and Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Now had you heard anything ahead of that time?

Mr. HUTSON. I saw this squad car go by me with the siren on.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. And as I got back to my motorcycle from picking up the signs, I heard the Signal 19, involving the President of the United States at Elm and Houston. I immediately made an emergency run to this location.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. HUTSON. I pulled up in front of the Texas School Book Depository and got off my motorcycle and took a position up on the sidewalk in front of the main entrance.

Mr. BELIN. Now there are a few steps between the sidewalk and the main entrance. Were you at the bottom of the steps?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes; I was at the bottom of the steps.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do at the bottom of the steps?

Mr. HUTSON. I stopped people and screened them from trying to enter, and prevented anyone from leaving if he got through the other two officers.

Mr. BELIN. You were there with two more officers?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were they?

Mr. HUTSON. They were at the top of the stairs at the door.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know the names of these officers?

Mr. HUTSON. I am not positive, but the best of my knowledge, it was J. B. Garrick and H. R. Freeman.

Mr. BELIN. Were those officers there when you got there?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Were they motorcycle officers or not?

Mr. HUTSON. Solo motorcycle officers.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there?

Mr. HUTSON. I don't know the exact amount of time that I stayed there.

Mr. BELIN. What is your best judgment?

Mr. HUTSON. Thirty minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you leave?

Mr. HUTSON. I was relieved by my sergeant.

Mr. BELIN. Did you let people go in that said they were employees within the building?

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir. One lady came up that was an employee. I refused to let anyone enter except police officers.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone leave the building?

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was your back to the building?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now there were lots of people milling around at that time, I assume?

Mr. HUTSON. Not at the entrance, there wasn't when I first got there. There wasn't a big crowd around that building, but all the sirens coming in, that is what brought the big crowd.

Mr. BELIN. Could you hear any witnesses say they had seen a rifle or anything from the building?

Mr. HUTSON. No; I didn't.