Chapter XVII: Part 17

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who else was there?

Mr. PERRY. Several different people. Captain Fritz, a lot of homicide detectives and Texas Rangers and several other people that I don't know who they were. I gather law enforcement agencies, but it was, the office was----

Mr. BALL. Anything said there?

Mr. PERRY. I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. Any conversation with Oswald?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And before you went down to the showup, how did you dress?

Mr. PERRY. I pulled my coat off and took my tie off and unbuttoned my shirt and put another sports coat on.

Mr. BALL. What color?

Mr. PERRY. I believe it was a brown sports coat.

Mr. BALL. Then you went down to the showup?

Mr. PERRY. Went down to the showup.

Mr. BALL. Were you handcuffed?

Mr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. To whom?

Mr. PERRY. To Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Which arm, or hand?

Mr. PERRY. My left hand to his right hand.

Mr. BALL. What place did you have in the showup?

Mr. PERRY. I was No. 1.

Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald?

Mr. PERRY. Oswald was No. 2, next to me.

Mr. BALL. Who was handcuffed to Oswald?

Mr. PERRY. Clark was handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. That was No. 3. Who was 4?

Mr. PERRY. Ables.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever know him before?

Mr. PERRY. I had seen--had seen him, but I didn't know him personally.

Mr. BALL. He is a clerk in the jail?

Mr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Policeman ask you any questions? Detective ask you any questions?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; my name and what have you.

Mr. BALL. Well, what do you mean, "what have you."?

Mr. PERRY. Well, occupation.

Mr. BALL. What else?

Mr. PERRY. I believe he asked me what kind of car I drove if I'm not mistaken.

Mr. BALL. And what answer did you give him?

Mr. PERRY. I gave him all fictitious answers. I don't recall what they were, but they weren't----

Mr. BALL. You didn't give him your true name?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or true address?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or the car you drove?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Ask you what your occupation was?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; he did, but I don't recall what I said to him.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you were a police officer?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Gave some----

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You took part in the second showup, didn't you?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. At 6:30, and who called you for that?

Mr. PERRY. We were down in the office and they simply called us and said they were ready for us again. Wanted us to come back and then we went back up there and----

Mr. BALL. How were you dressed that time?

Mr. PERRY. Same way.

Mr. BALL. Same coat?

Mr. PERRY. Same coat.

Mr. BALL. No tie?

Mr. PERRY. No tie.

Mr. BALL. Give the same answers and same name, occupation and address?

Mr. PERRY. Best I recall I think they were all fictitious too.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation which took place in the audience?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who the detective was that asked the questions?

Mr. PERRY. Sims, I believe. It was Sims.

Mr. BALL. Do you think that was Sims? Do you know Sims?

Mr. PERRY. I do. It was Sims; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Sims was behind with you. He was not in the audience?

Mr. PERRY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. According to the record, did he ask questions from the stage?

Mr. PERRY. From the stage where we were; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where you were. Who asked them the first time? Do you know?

Mr. PERRY. I don't recall. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. But you remember Sims did the second one?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right. Will you state your height, please?

Mr. PERRY. About 5'11".

Mr. BALL. What is your weight?

Mr. PERRY. About 150.

Mr. BALL. And your hair?

Mr. PERRY. Brown.

Mr. BALL. And your eyes?

Mr. PERRY. Blue.

Mr. BALL. Complexion?

Mr. PERRY. I guess medium, fair, I guess.

Mr. BALL. Fair. That's all.

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD L. CLARK

The testimony of Richard L. Clark was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CLARK. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. CLARK. Richard L. Clark.

Mr. BALL. What is your address, please, your home address?

Mr. CLARK. 4928 Live Oak.

Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation?

Mr. CLARK. Detective for the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. CLARK. Eleven years.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?

Mr. CLARK. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Go through school here?

Mr. CLARK. Went to school in Irving.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. CLARK. After I went to school?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. CLARK. I went to work.

Mr. BALL. Where? Let me explain to you that as the Commission isn't going to see you personally, they ask us to find out something about you and where you were born and your early education, what you have done most of your life, try to get some idea of who is giving the testimony.

Mr. CLARK. Worked for Merchants Retail Credit Association before the police department.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do on the police department?

Mr. CLARK. Vice squad detective.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, you took part in some showup of the police department, did you?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. CLARK. Two.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time these showups were?

Mr. CLARK. They were in the late afternoon but I don't remember the exact time.

Mr. BALL. Well, let's take the first showup of which you were a part. That was in the afternoon of the 22d of November 1963, wasn't it?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who asked you to take part in that showup?

Mr. CLARK. Captain Fritz called down to our office and wanted a couple of men to come up and make a showup with Oswald.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go then?

Mr. CLARK. Went up to the third floor, to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. Who went with you?

Mr. CLARK. My partner.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. CLARK. W. E. Perry.

Mr. BALL. Who was in Captain Fritz' office when you got there?

Mr. CLARK. Everybody that was in there.

Mr. BALL. Were there a good many people in there?

Mr. CLARK. Bunch of people in there.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald in there?

Mr. CLARK. Oswald was there.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the other people?

Mr. CLARK. Homicide detectives, Texas Rangers, FBI. Everybody.

Mr. BALL. What was said at that time?

Mr. CLARK. They told us just to wait right there, that they wanted us to make a showup with them.

Mr. BALL. Did you wait there very long?

Mr. CLARK. I'd say we waited in the office maybe 15 minutes or less.

Mr. BALL. Anything said while you were there?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. CLARK. We took off our coats, ties. I put on a little--I believe it was a red vest, went on down to the jail office.

Mr. BALL. Where did you get the vest?

Mr. CLARK. At homicide.

Mr. BALL. You didn't own a----

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; just hanging loose in there.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a white shirt on?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Cuff links, or----

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I believe a short-sleeve shirt.

Mr. BALL. Short-sleeve shirt?

Mr. CLARK. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Took off your tie?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Unbuttoned your top button on your shirt?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of pants did you have on?

Mr. CLARK. Brown.

Mr. BALL. With belt?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What about your partner, what did he do?

Mr. CLARK. He took of his tie and his coat, and I believe they had a sports coat hanging there that he put on.

Mr. BALL. And you went down in the showup room?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many men were in the showup with you?

Mr. CLARK. Total?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. CLARK. Well, let's see. Myself, my partner, Oswald, and another man out of the jail office.

Mr. BALL. What was his name? Do you know? Was that Ables?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was your position in the showup?

Mr. CLARK. My right hand was handcuffed to Oswald's left hand.

Mr. BALL. Your right----

Mr. CLARK. To his left.

Mr. BALL. To his left. Then who was next to Oswald?

Mr. CLARK. And my partner, W. E. Perry, was next to Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed to Oswald?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; he was. Handcuffed his left hand to Oswald's right hand.

Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Ables?

Mr. CLARK. Mr. Ables was standing to the left.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Okay. We'll put that on. Now, did you have numbers in the showup as such? Have a number above each man?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; I believe we do.

Mr. BALL. Now, facing the audience, if you were in the audience, were you numbered from left to right?

Mr. CLARK. Numbered from left to right.

Mr. BALL. As you faced the audience?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And as the audience faces you, it is right to left to the audience?

Mr. CLARK. The audience facing us it--well, it would be just opposite.

Mr. BALL. Opposite, that's right. Now, as you faced the audience, who was the first one to the left?

Mr. CLARK. First one to my left?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. CLARK. Be Ables.

Mr. BALL. The No. 1 was Ables?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; No. 1 was Perry.

Mr. BALL. Who was No. 2?

Mr. CLARK. Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Who was No. 3?

Mr. CLARK. Myself.

Mr. BALL. Who was No. 4?

Mr. CLARK. Ables.

Mr. BALL. And he stood to your right and faced the audience?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; he stood to my left as I was facing the audience. The audience was looking at him, it would be----

Mr. BALL. He stood on your left?

Mr. CLARK. That's right.

Mr. BALL. I see. Ables would be the No. 4 man?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you the No. 3 man?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Oswald was 2, your partner 1?

Mr. CLARK. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Now, did the detective in this first showup ask you any questions?

Mr. CLARK. Did the detective ask us?

Mr. BALL. Yes, in the showup?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; he didn't ask any questions.

Mr. BALL. Now, back to the first showup, did the detective ask you any questions? Ask your name and address and occupation?

Mr. BALL. Oh, in the showup.

Mr. BALL. In the showup.

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he ask you?

Mr. CLARK. He asked me my name.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. CLARK. I don't remember what I told him.

Mr. BALL. Did you give him your real name?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Fictitious name?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Ask you your occupation?

Mr. CLARK. Asked my occupation.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. CLARK. I don't recall. All of them are fictitious.

Mr. BALL. Fictitious?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything that was said in the audience?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I couldn't hear anything that was said.

Mr. BALL. Lights were on you?

Mr. CLARK. Lights were on us; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you couldn't see in the audience?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, can you refresh your memory from the police report and tell me what time that first showup was?

Mr. CLARK. 4:35 p.m.

Mr. BALL. P.m.? You were in the second showup also, weren't you?

Mr. CLARK. Second showup would be 6:30 p.m.

Mr. BALL. Now, those were the only two showups in which you took part?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, at the 6:30 showup, how did you happen to take part in that?

Mr. CLARK. I believe some detective, I don't recall who, came up from homicide and told us that there would probably be another showup after the first one, to stick around in the event that there was that they wanted us again.

Mr. BALL. Did you still stick around?

Mr. CLARK. We went back to our office.

Mr. BALL. To your office? Did you get a call?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; they called us back down there.

Mr. BALL. Who called you?

Mr. CLARK. I don't recall who called us.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you got the call?

Mr. CLARK. Back up to the third floor, homicide office up there.

Mr. BALL. Fritz' office?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What had you done with the little red vest that you had on in the first showup?

Mr. CLARK. I had left--after the showup we went back upstairs to the homicide, and I took it off and left it there.

Mr. BALL. What did you do for the second showup? How did you dress?

Mr. CLARK. The same red vest.

Mr. BALL. What about your tie?

Mr. CLARK. No tie.

Mr. BALL. What about the coat?

Mr. CLARK. No coat.

Mr. BALL. Now, on the second showup, where were you standing?

Mr. CLARK. Same position.

Mr. BALL. Same position?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Facing the audience, who was No. 1?

Mr. CLARK. Facing the audience, Perry would have been No. 1. Oswald----

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. CLARK. Perry.

Mr. BALL. Oswald was 2?

Mr. CLARK. Oswald, 2; myself, 3; Ables, 4.

Mr. BALL. And did the detective ask you questions?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; he asked me questions again.

Mr. BALL. What did he ask you?

Mr. CLARK. Name, address, occupation.

Mr. BALL. And do you remember what you said?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; they were all fictitious answers.

Mr. BALL. And again, could you hear anything said in the audience?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is your height?

Mr. CLARK. About 5'11".

Mr. BALL. What is your weight?

Mr. CLARK. About 177.

Mr. BALL. And your hair?

Mr. CLARK. Blond.

Mr. BALL. And your eyes?

Mr. CLARK. Blue.

Mr. BALL. Your complexion is fair?

Mr. CLARK. Fair.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever taken part in a showup before?

Mr. CLARK. No.

Mr. BALL. Was it unusual to have an officer, from your experience in the police department, was it unusual to have an officer take part in the police department showup?

Mr. CLARK. No; it wasn't unusual.

Mr. BALL. You ever helped them before?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I think that is all.

Will you give your seat to your partner here, and we'll take his deposition.

TESTIMONY OF DON R. ABLES

The testimony of Don R. Ables was taken at 9:45 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Would you stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ABLES. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. ABLES. Don R. Ables.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live, Mr. Ables?

Mr. ABLES. 1520 Kingsley, in Garland.

Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation?

Mr. ABLES. Jail clerk, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a jail clerk in the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. ABLES. About 7 months.

Mr. BALL. And you are a member of the police department?

Mr. ABLES. I am a civilian employee.

Mr. BALL. Civilian employee? You are not----

Mr. ABLES. An actual member of the----

Mr. BALL. An actual member of the department?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?

Mr. ABLES. I was born and raised in Hico, Tex.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell that? You probably know it. I don't.

Mr. ABLES. [Spelling.] H-i-c-o.

Mr. BALL. [Spelling.] H-i-c-o. Did you go to school there?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How far through school?

Mr. ABLES. Well, through 10-1/2 grades.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. ABLES. Joined the Navy.

Mr. BALL. How long were you in the Navy?

Mr. ABLES. Seven and a half years.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got out of the Navy?

Mr. ABLES. Came straight to Dallas and went to work for the police department.

Mr. BALL. That was 7 months ago?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were on duty on November 22, 1963, were you?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In the afternoon? Did you take part in a showup?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. With Oswald?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to take part in the showup? Tell me who asked you to, or ordered you to?

Mr. ABLES. Well, my supervisor in the jail office asked me to.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. ABLES. Sergeant Duncan.

Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?

Mr. ABLES. Told me that they needed a man for the showup and go out there.

Mr. BALL. To where?

Mr. ABLES. Well, they was all standing in the room, and I just joined in with them.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. ABLES. Went into the showup room.

Mr. BALL. Showup room?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How were you dressed when you went in the showup room?

Mr. ABLES. I was wearing a white shirt and this sweater here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. You have a gray-knit sweater on?

Mr. ABLES. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And dark trousers?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Have a tie on?

Mr. ABLES. No.

Mr. BALL. Then you were dressed about like you are dressed today, is that right?

Mr. ABLES. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Were you given any instructions when you went into the showup room?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir; none whatever.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever been in a showup before?

Mr. ABLES. No.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard of officers or employees of the Police Department being used in a showup before?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir; I have. I hadn't until I went to work for the police department.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever afterwards?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell me, it is your conclusion I know, but tell me briefly what you learned as to the practice of the police department of using jail employees or officers in showups? You can generalize. I am not holding you down as to where you learned it. Tell me what you learned about it?

Mr. ABLES. Well, only times that I have heard that--I have never seen a police officer or employee used in a showup but only times I have heard of them being used is when they need somebody in a hurry, or need somebody to do that. Well, to more or less look like they belong in a showup or something.

Mr. BALL. Somebody that looks like the prisoner who is in the showup?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you aware when you went in there that you would be asked certain questions?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were not? When you went in there where did you stand in the line?

Mr. ABLES. I was No. 4.

Mr. BALL. That would be facing the audience?

Mr. ABLES. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You were aware then that you were No. 4 in this?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That would be you were on the left, on the right, facing the audience?

Mr. ABLES. Be on the left.

Mr. BALL. Left facing the audience, is that right?

Mr. ABLES. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Your left?

Mr. ABLES. My left.

Mr. BALL. Your left, facing the audience. The detective there, did he ask you any questions?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he ask you?

Mr. ABLES. As I recall, he asked me where I was from and what my occupation was and where I went to high school.

Mr. BALL. And where what?

Mr. ABLES. Where I went to high school.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask your name?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. BALL. What did you answer?

Mr. ABLES. When he asked where I was from I told him Dallas. I don't recall what I told him when he asked my occupation.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you were a jail clerk?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Gave him a fictitious occupation?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When he asked you where you went to high school, where did you tell him?

Mr. ABLES. I believe I told him Dallas. I'm not quite sure on that.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of the detective that asked you the questions?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Could you hear anything from the audience?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald say anything?

Mr. ABLES. Only time he said anything was when the detective asked him questions.

Mr. BALL. Did he answer the questions?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you--you participated in the second showup, too, didn't you?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day?

Mr. ABLES. About 6:30.

Mr. BALL. And in that showup, how were you dressed?

Mr. ABLES. Same way.

Mr. BALL. Who asked you to go to that showup?

Mr. ABLES. The detective in charge of the showup wanted the same members back in there.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember who asked you the questions?

Mr. ABLES. I don't remember his name. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where were you in that showup? What number?

Mr. ABLES. Same position, No. 4.

Mr. BALL. Who was in that showup?

Mr ABLES. It was Perry, Oswald, Clark, and myself.

Mr. BALL. Same ones as in the first showup up there?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Ask you questions?

Mr. ABLES. I don't recall on that, on the second showup. I know he did on the first showup.

Mr. BALL. You don't know whether he did or not ask you questions?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir; not on the second showup.

Mr. BALL. If he did ask you questions, he--you don't recall what they were?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir; or what I said.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you take part in another showup?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr BALL. When was that?

Mr. ABLES. That was later on that evening. I don't recall what time.

Mr. BALL. Think it would be around 7:55, or 8 o'clock?

Mr. ABLES. Could have been; I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. And who was in that showup with you?

Mr. ABLES. Myself, Oswald, and two prisoners.

Mr. BALL. Four, again, were there?

Mr. ABLES. I believe so.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the prisoners?

Mr ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have the names here. Richard Walter Borchgardt. Do you know whether he was there?

Mr ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or Ellis Brazel?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You don't know him?

Mr. ABLES. No.

Mr. BALL. Who asked you to take part in this showup?

Mr. ABLES. The same detective that was in charge of the showup said that he wanted me back in there.

Mr. BALL. Had you been in the jail--had you been waiting in the jail during the time?

Mr. ABLES. Well; I performed my duties in the jail office.

Mr. BALL. In between the showups?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well----

Mr. ABLES. The jail office adjoins the showup room.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work that day?

Mr. ABLES. 2:30 p.m. until 10:30 p.m.

Mr. BALL. How were you dressed on the third showup?

Mr. ABLES. Same way.

Mr. BALL. As you had been on the first and second?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were questions asked of you again?

Mr. ABLES. I don't believe it was asked on the third showup. I am quite sure there was no questions asked.

Mr. BALL. Where were you on the third showup? What number?

Mr. ABLES. I was in my same position, No. 4.

Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald?

Mr. ABLES. He was in his position No. 2.

Mr. BALL. You were at no time handcuffed to Oswald?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me your height?

Mr. ABLES. About 5'9".

Mr. BALL. What is your weight?

Mr. ABLES. Around 165 or something.

Mr. BALL. And your hair?

Mr. ABLES. Dark.

Mr. BALL. Eyes?

Mr. ABLES. Brown.

Mr. BALL. Complexion?

Mr. ABLES. Ruddy.

Mr. BALL. I think that is all. You can be excused, too.

Mr. ABLES. All right.

TESTIMONY OF DANIEL GUTIERREZ LUJAN

The testimony of Daniel Gutierrez Lujan was taken at 10:10 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Lujan, will you stand up and be sworn, please.

Hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give to this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were asked to come in here and testify, were you not, in this matter? You were asked to come here?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you not?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And this Commission has been appointed to inquire into the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And we're informed that you--that there is certain information that might be of some value to the Commission in coming to their conclusion, and we have asked you to come in here and testify.

Are you willing to testify to whatever you know?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This is Mr. Ely and my name is Ball. We are both staff officers with the Commission. Will you please state your name?

Mr. LUJAN. Daniel Gutierrez Lujan.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. LUJAN. I live 184 Lear.

Mr. BALL. Dallas?

Mr. LUJAN. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. LUJAN. I work in a meat company, butcher and general help.

Mr. BALL. I see. Where were you born?

Mr. LUJAN. Tyler, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school there?

Mr. LUJAN. No; I went to school in San Antonio and here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. In Dallas?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school?

Mr. LUJAN. Went to about seventh grade.

Mr. BALL. Then did you go to work?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work?

Mr. LUJAN. Palmer & Ray.

Mr. BALL. Red?

Mr. LUJAN. Ray & Palmer.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?

Mr. LUJAN. I worked there about 2-1/2 years.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?

Mr. LUJAN. Direct Delivery Service.

Mr. BALL. Direct to where?

Mr. LUJAN. Delivery Service.

Mr. BALL. Delivery Service?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?

Mr. LUJAN. I worked about 3 years.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. LUJAN. Then had to go to Huntsville. I went to Huntsville.

Mr. BALL. I didn't hear that.

Mr. LUJAN. I went to Huntsville Penitentiary.

Mr. BALL. You went to Huntsville Prison?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. For what charge?

Mr. LUJAN. Possession of narcotics.

Mr. BALL. How long were you there?

Mr. LUJAN. Three years.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. LUJAN. I got out and started working at Schepps. Schepps Wholesale Groceries.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. LUJAN. T. & W.

Mr. BALL. From Schepps? You're still there?

Mr. LUJAN. No; T. & W. Meat Co.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. LUJAN. T. & W.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work for Schepps?

Mr. LUJAN. Three and a half years.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. LUJAN. T. & W.

Mr. BALL. I see. November 22, 1963, you were in jail, weren't you?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was the charge?

Mr. LUJAN. Investigation.

Mr. BALL. Of what?

Mr. LUJAN. Investigation of narcotics.

Mr. BALL. Of narcotics?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And when were you arrested?

Mr. LUJAN. I was arrested the day before that.

Mr. BALL. That is, November 22--21?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes; day before the assassination.

Mr. BALL. Before the assassination?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in jail?

Mr. LUJAN. Until Sunday.

Mr. BALL. Then did they release you?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You were not charged with anything?

Mr. LUJAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Now, are they--on Friday, November 22, 1963, did you take part in a showup?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What time of day was it?

Mr. LUJAN. It was--I don't recall, about 1 o'clock, probably in the afternoon.

Mr. BALL. Was it in the afternoon?

Mr. LUJAN. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Or what?

Mr. LUJAN. That was a Saturday.

Mr. BALL. Saturday, yes. You didn't take part in any showups on Friday?

Mr. LUJAN. No; just one showup and Saturday----

Mr. BALL. So, Saturday you took part in one showup?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who asked you to do that?

Mr. LUJAN. An officer went in there and told me to stand up and I stand up and he looked at me and said, "Come out."

So, I came out, and he went and got three more.

Mr. BALL. Got three more?

Mr. LUJAN. Got three more fellows.

Mr. BALL. Three more fellows from jail?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you know them?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen them before?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever seen them since?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did they look like?

Mr. LUJAN. About my size, darker.

Mr. BALL. What is your size? What is your weight?

Mr. LUJAN. Weigh about 170.

Mr. BALL. What is your height?

Mr. LUJAN. About 5'8".

Mr. BALL. And your hair is dark?

Mr. LUJAN. Black.

Mr. BALL. It is black hair. And your eyes?

Mr. LUJAN. Brown.

Mr. BALL. And brown, and your complexion?

Mr. LUJAN. Olive.

Mr. BALL. Are you of Mexican descent?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You are very fair in color for a Mexican.

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You have fair skin, haven't you?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did the other man look like in the showup with you?

Mr. LUJAN. Oh, about my coloring, and about----

Mr. BALL. Same coloring?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Or anywhere near the coloring of Oswald?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You saw Oswald, didn't you?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where did you stand in the showup?

Mr. LUJAN. I was standing next to him, right next to him.

Mr. BALL. Right next to him?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you handcuffed to him?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear him say anything?

Mr. LUJAN. He said he wanted a T-shirt. He wanted a T-shirt.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. On the record. Let me see, did I ask you where you were standing in the lineup?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were what would be----

Mr. LUJAN. Right next to him.

Mr. BALL. Which was the right, to your right?

Mr. LUJAN. No; he was standing right here, handcuffed----

Mr. BALL. To the right?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were handcuffed to Oswald?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was complaining, was he?

Mr. LUJAN. About having a T-shirt, and wanted a jacket or something.

Mr. BALL. How were you dressed?

Mr. LUJAN. I had a jacket and a shirt.

Mr. BALL. What color shirt?

Mr. LUJAN. I don't--kind of blue shirt and brown jacket.

Mr. BALL. Brown jacket?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Any tie on?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did the detective ask your name?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you tell him your name?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask your occupation?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. LUJAN. Working for S. & F. Meat Co.

Mr. BALL. Ask you anything else?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; that's all. Phone number.

Mr. BALL. Phone number and your address?

Mr. LUJAN. Address, phone number.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask the other men any showup questions?

Mr. LUJAN. No; just asked my name and address and phone number is all.

Mr. BALL. That's all? Did he ask that of Oswald?

Mr. LUJAN. No, he didn't ask Oswald nothing.

Mr. BALL. Oswald was doing some talking?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was he shouting loud?

Mr. LUJAN. He was shouting. He--he was shouting, said all of us had a shirt on and he had a T-shirt on. He wanted a shirt or something.

Mr. BALL. Did the detective say anything to you--or him?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; just took us out. They didn't have the showup. Left about a minute.

Mr. BALL. Then you left?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes; took us out back to the cell.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean they didn't have a showup? They did have you in there and he did ask you questions?

Mr. LUJAN. He didn't ask questions. He started--he wanted a shirt, and that's all.

Mr. BALL. They asked you questions, didn't they?

Mr. LUJAN. No; they didn't ask nobody questions.

Mr. BALL. Oh, he asked you your name and address and asked the others their name and address?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask Oswald his name and address?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes--I mean no, sir.

Mr. BALL. I think that is all, Mr. Lujan. You can leave.

Mr. LUJAN. All right.

Mr. BALL. Do you have a picture of yourself?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; not with me.

Mr. BALL. We have your address where you are working?

Mr. LUJAN. 2405 South Ervay.

TESTIMONY OF C. W. BROWN

The testimony of C. W. Brown was taken at 3:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Let's get you sworn in here. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BROWN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name for the record, please.

Mr. BROWN. C. W. Brown.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Brown?

Mr. BROWN. I live in DeSoto, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. BROWN. Police officer.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been a police officer?

Mr. BROWN. Thirteen years.

Mr. BELIN. Where are you from originally?

Mr. BROWN. Dallas, and DeSoto is my home.

Mr. BELIN. You go to school there?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through school?

Mr. BROWN. Through high school.

Mr. BELIN. Did you graduate from the high school in DeSoto?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BROWN. I went into the Navy.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy?

Mr. BROWN. Spent 3 years in the Navy during World War II.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, by the way?

Mr. BROWN. Thirty-eight.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. BROWN. No; divorced.

Mr. BELIN. You were in the Navy for 3 years?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing when you got out of the Navy?

Mr. BROWN. When I got out of the Navy I was employed by the Southwestern Bell Telephone Co.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy, by the way?

Mr. BROWN. During the war I was a coxswain, as a third class petty officer, in the amphibious branch of the Navy.

Then after the war the peace was signed and I was a radioman until my discharge in 1944.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after the war?

Mr. BROWN. I started to work for the Southwestern Bell Telephone Co.

Mr. BELIN. As what?

Mr. BROWN. As an installer.

Mr. BELIN. Of telephones?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I was employed with those people 5 years before I went to work for the city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything--well, what did you do after that? Just go to work for the city of Dallas Police Department?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I have been with those people ever since.

Mr. BELIN. How long now?

Mr. BROWN. Thirteen years.

Mr. BELIN. What is your position now?

Mr. BROWN. I am detective in the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing around noon or so?

Mr. BROWN. I was booking a prisoner in at the city hall, with Detective J. R. Leavelle.

Mr. BELIN. When did you first hear of the shooting of the President?

Mr. BROWN. It came on our police intercom radio that we have in the office.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BROWN. Lieutenant Wells was in the office and we asked him if that was correct, and he said, "Yes, they are on their way to Parkland now."

So he said, "Hurry up and get your prisoner booked and get down there and help them."

So we immediately put this subject in jail.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BROWN. And went to the location of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BROWN. My partner went to the front of the building. I went to the back of the building, and I proceeded up the back stairs to the sixth floor where I met Captain Fritz and several other officers on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. BROWN. I talked to Captain Fritz and I asked him what he wanted me to do. He said for me and Detective B. L. Senkel to gather up--there was about five employees there on the sixth floor, with him, and take them to the city hall and get affidavits from those people, where they were at the time of the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.

Mr. BROWN. Where they were at the time of the shooting, and what they were doing, what they heard or saw during this incident.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go do that then?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You left the sixth floor right then?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; Detective Senkel and I took these employees to the city hall, and in this group of employees I was talking to a Mr. Shelley, and got an affidavit from him, when the officers brought in Lee Harvey Oswald.

And there were several cameramen following these boys also in front of them, and they opened the door to where I was interviewing; Mr. Shelley looked up and he said, "Well, that is Oswald. He works for us. He is one of my boys."

Mr. BELIN. What did you do or say?

Mr. BROWN. We got up and got out of the room so they could put Oswald in there in the room we were using.

We just had two small interview rooms there, and I let them put him in there.

Then as we got outside, of course, the phones were ringing. I answered the phone. It was Captain Fritz. He was still at the scene on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository, and I told him that the officers had just brought in a suspect that had shot the police officer, and told him about Mr. Shelley telling me that this boy that was identified was Lee Harvey Oswald, was also an employee there.

He said, "I will be right up in a few minutes."

Mr. BELIN. Where was Captain Fritz at this time?

Mr. BROWN. He was still at the scene of the shooting, at the Texas School Book Depository. He called from there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BROWN. I told him it looked like we might have the boy that was responsible for that. He said, "Okay, I will be up in a few minutes."

Mr. BELIN. What did you mean by "that," for the assassination?

Mr. BROWN. For the President's assassination. That was my own personal opinion at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BROWN. Then after the confusion died down a little bit, I got Mr. Shelley back in another room, the other room that was not occupied at this time, and finished my affidavit with him in regard to what he did, saw, or heard at the time of the assassination.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did Shelley say anything more about Oswald at the time you talked to him?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; after he mentioned that he was an employee there, that he had been training him--see, I had taken the affidavit from him in regard to what he was doing personally--then after they bring Oswald in, he tells me that he was responsible for him and was his own personal supervisor. I immediately got an affidavit from him in conjunction with what his work consisted of, when he was employed, and what he was doing, and what type work he did there.

Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate where Oswald was, at the time of the shooting?

Mr. BROWN. No; he did not know where Oswald was at the time of the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had ever seen Oswald subsequent to the time of the shooting before he saw him in the police department?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; he saw him that morning. He gave him some stuff to do.

Mr. BELIN. I mean after the time of the shooting of the President?

Mr. BROWN. No; he did not see him.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he, Shelley, was?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I have it in his affidavit. I don't remember where he said he was.

Mr. BELIN. But you took an affidavit from him?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I did. I don't have that report with me.

Mr. BELIN. We have a copy of it here, but we are going to take the deposition of Mr. Shelley and we will get it then.

Mr. BROWN. All right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, also, I believe your partner, Mr. Senkel took an affidavit of Bonnie Ray Williams, is that correct, at that same time?

Mr. BROWN. That's right; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. He was a Negro employee?

Mr. BROWN. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you take his affidavit?

Mr. BROWN. He was there employed. He was getting the affidavit from every employee in the building that day, for the reason of where they were, what they saw, and what they heard then during this assassination.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did on that day of November 22, that you think involved the assassination in any way, shape, or form?

I will ask you this. Detective Brown, you made a memorandum with regard to your actions on November 22 and November 23, did you not?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any memorandum pertaining to any showups that you participated in?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; on the 22d of November I had a showup with my partner, C. N. Dhority. This occurred in the basement of the city hall with a Mr. McWatters, who is an employee of the Dallas Transit Co. as a busdriver, who at that time identified Lee Harvey Oswald as No. 2 in the four-man lineup at 6:30 p.m.

Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Harvey Oswald the No. 2 man in that lineup?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; he was. That is numbering, facing the stage from your left to right.

Mr. BELIN. You mean your left, the observers left?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; the observers left to his right.

Mr. BELIN. Do your notes, of their own accord, show who else was in the lineup besides Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BROWN. No; it does not.

Mr. BELIN. Where would that information be available?

Mr. BROWN. I am not for sure on that, because during the time we were taking an affidavit from Mr. McWatters in regard to him seeing Lee Harvey Oswald on his bus, and also identifying his mark he made on the bus transfer.

Another officer had this stub, and the other three men in the lineup were for other witnesses to observe.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know who else was in the lineup?

Mr. BROWN. No; I did not get their names.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what McWatters said when he made his identification?

Mr. BROWN. Yes. Mr. McWatters said, "Yes, he is the one that got on the bus. I gave him a transfer."

Mr. BELIN. Did you show Mr. McWatters any transfer that had been found in Oswald's possession?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; at the time he was in their office.

Mr. BELIN. Did you yourself show him that?

Mr. BROWN. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see someone show him that?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; my partner, Detective Dhority.

Mr. BELIN. What did McWatters say about that?

Mr. BROWN. He said, "That is definitely my mark."

Mr. BELIN. How did he seem to identify that?

Mr. BROWN. By taking the slip and placing his punch that he carried. He did punch a hole in a blank piece of paper that was lying on the desk, and he held it up for comparison there in our presence.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else about McWatters at all that you remember?

Mr. BROWN. Nothing other than we did take the affidavit and the identification that he did give us of Oswald in this lineup.

Mr. BELIN. All right, any other showups on that day or any other day?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. We had showups.

Mr. BELIN. Who else?

Mr. BROWN. About 7:30, or 7:45 p.m., that same day my partner, C. N. Dhority and myself had two eye witnesses on the Officer Tippit murder from 400 East 10th Street in our homicide and robbery bureau, and took affidavits from them of what happened that day in front of their home.

After their affidavits were taken, we took them to the lineup room where again Oswald and three more men were being shown to other witnesses. Their names unknown. They were definitely and positively identified by these two. One was Mrs. Barbara Davis and one Mrs. Barbara Jeannette Davis.

Mr. BELIN. Was----

Mr. BROWN. Wait a minute, I am sorry. It was Mrs. Virginia Davis, and Mrs. Barbara Davis.

Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they made their identification?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I was. This was 7:45 p.m., November 22.

Mr. BELIN. Who did they pick?

Mr. BROWN. They picked Lee Harvey Oswald again, which was No. 2, in a four-man lineup.

Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Harvey Oswald in the four-man lineup?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. They identified him as the man?

Mr. BROWN. Definitely, before they got on the stage, before they got them under the numbers, too.

Mr. BELIN. They saw him right away, you mean?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; they definitely picked him instantly.

Mr. BELIN. Instantly, you have just snapped your hands there?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with that identification?

Mr. BROWN. That is the only two that I was active insofar as the showups and identification of Lee Harvey Oswald by any of the witnesses on either Officer Tippit or the President's assassination.

Mr. BELIN. All right, is there anything else you had to do with the murder of Officer Tippit's investigation or the investigation of the assassination that you haven't related to us thus far today?

Mr. BROWN. Yes. In regard to the Officer Tippit murder, the same date, November 22, 1963, Lt. T. P. Wells received a telephone call from a Mrs. Barbara Davis of 400 East 10th stating that her sister-in-law of the same address, her name as Mrs. Virginia Davis, had found an additional empty .38 caliber shell cartridge in her front yard.

Lieutenant Wells ordered my partner, C. N. Dhority, and I, to go to the Davis residence where Mrs. Barbara Davis handed my partner this spent hull at approximately 7 p.m., that evening. That was brought to the homicide and robbery bureau by myself and Detective Dhority.

Mr. BELIN. Was it brought to that bureau at the time you brought the two women?

Mr. BROWN. At the same time the Davis women were brought to the office for affidavits and identification.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you turn that cartridge shell over to?

Mr. BROWN. That went to the crime lab, Dallas Crime Lab.

Mr. BELIN. Did you, yourself, turn it over?

Mr. BROWN. No; Detective Dhority handled that.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Dhority handled that?

Mr. BROWN. We were keeping this evidence in a chain there. Mrs. Barbara Jeanette Davis handed him the spent cartridge. He gave it to the crime lab himself, which was initialled by both of us.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else, sir?

Mr. BROWN. None in regard to any evidence or identification of any further witnesses.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with either the assassination or the Tippit murder?

Mr. BROWN. None that I recall at this time, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, you have an opportunity to either read the deposition when it is transcribed and sign it, or else waive the reading and have our court reporter send it directly to Washington. You can take your choice.

Mr. BROWN. Well, I have no reason to read it for any reason at all.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive signing it then?

Mr. BROWN. That would be fine. Waive signing, and you can send it right out. To the best of my knowledge, that is everything that happened.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate all of your cooperation and the cooperation of the Dallas Police Department.

TESTIMONY OF L. C. GRAVES

Testimony of L. C. Graves was taken at 3:10 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GRAVES. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name, for the reporter?

Mr. GRAVES. My name is L. C. Graves.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Graves?

Mr. GRAVES. I am a detective with the police department, city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. GRAVES. I am 45 years old.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born and raised in Texas?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes, sir; I was born and raised in Camp County, October 8, 1918.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school?

Mr. GRAVES. Leesburg--I mean to Pittsburg.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. GRAVES. I finished 10-1/2 years of schooling in Pittsburg and Leesburg, then received a high school diploma after such time.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. Then what did I do?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRAVES. Oh, let's see. From there I went into the CCC camp.

Mr. BELIN. For a period of several years?

Mr. GRAVES. Let's see, I think a couple of years, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. I came out and stayed out about a couple of months and then I joined the Texas National Guard, and shortly after that it mobilized and I went into active service, at which time I stayed until I was discharged after the war.

Mr. BELIN. Was this an honorable discharge?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What were your duties in the Army, say, generally?