Chapter XXXVIII: Part 38

Mr. HOLMES. If you will give me a receipt for it. I have a photocopy.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is quite as legible, the photocopy, so why don't I just mark the photocopy and you keep the original?

Mr. HOLMES. Okay.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed the photocopy, and I would like to have you initial it also for the purpose of identification, and we will mark that as Holmes Exhibit No. 2-A on your deposition of July 23, 1064, a photocopy of a post office box application in the name of Jack Ruby, dated November 1, 1963. Post Office Box No. 5475, and as I understand it, this was an application that was made at the Terminal Annex here in Dallas, is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any way in which we can tell from just looking at it, or that is something you know from having gotten the copy from the Terminal Annex?

Mr. HOLMES. The box number categories are set out for each station that comes within that bracket. The applications don't tell you what post office it is from. It might be from San Antonio. But I don't know why. What are your initials and name?

Mr. LIEBELER. W. J. L., Wesley J. Liebeler.

Mr. HOLMES. How do you spell your last name?

Mr. LIEBELER (spelling). L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r.

Mr. HOLMES. Thank you [handing another card to Mr. Liebeler]. I will explain it to you, and you might want to ask me for the record what it is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; you have handed me a postcard, Post Office Department Form 3546, Notice to Change Forwarding Order.

Mr. HOLMES. That is different from our 3575 in that this is simply a forwarding order. This is to change a forwarding order. To interpret it, Lee Oswald, on October 11, 1963, in New Orleans, gave his box 2915 in Dallas as the last address. He had given a forwarding order on this box to this box 30061 in New Orleans on May 14, 1963. Now then, he is again forwarding from this box. Not again, but it is a second forwarding.

Mr. LIEBELER. This would indicate that instructions had been given to forward from box 2915 here in Dallas?

Mr. HOLMES. Direct without going through----

Mr. LIEBELER. This would indicate that all together, he had first issued instructions that mail should be forwarded from box 2915 in Dallas to box 30061 in New Orleans, and this would now indicate that mail was to be forwarded to 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving, Tex., and that is dated October 11, 1963. Now, there are several postmarks appearing on this form. There is one Dallas postmark of October 16 on both sides, and there is also a postmark in New Orleans, which is difficult to read, but it is sometime in October. Now you suggested perhaps October 11, 1963. What do you interpret happened with regard to this notice, Post Office Department Form 3546? Can you tell from looking at it where, in the ordinary course of events, he would have first prepared this form?

Mr. HOLMES. That would have been prepared in New Orleans and dropped in the mailbox. He would have prepared that at a station, because they have filled the front in and crossed it out. In fact, they hand these out at the stations. He has gone into the station probably where he had this box. In the normal course of the patron's activities he would have gone into that station where that box is and said, "I want my mail forwarded." All right, fill this out.

It looks like they might have filled it out for him. It doesn't look too much like his writing. But they would have filled this out to show that mail from this box should not be sent to New Orleans, but sent to Irving, so the post office would send that up to Dallas where this box is at the main office, and they would have that on file here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Box 2915, you mean? That address here?

Mr. HOLMES. Here is a photocopy of box 2915 application, and it will show it was closed on May 14, 1963, which is this red figure up here. So when they got that in here in Dallas, they would have put this red mark on there for some reason to show when the box was closed, and then they would keep this in their file as instructions until they got some other instructions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it possible that this form which, well, do you have a photostatic of this form we have been talking about?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me mark this original one for the record then, if I may.

Mr. HOLMES. That is all right.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed this Post Office Department Form 3546, which has been marked "Holmes Exhibit No. 3-A on deposition of July 23, 1964," and I would like to have you initial it also for the purpose of identification.

(Mr. Holmes initials.)

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you some more questions about Holmes Exhibit No. 3, which is postmarked, as we have indicated, October 16, in Dallas, and also bears a postmark in New Orleans which I think is October 11.

Mr. HOLMES. My best educated guess is the 11th.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me come bluntly to the point. My problem is this. Oswald wasn't in New Orleans on October 11. He was in Dallas.

Mr. HOLMES. Now, he could have filled that out here. It could have been mailed to New Orleans for forwarding the mail up from there. He could have mailed it from some other post office, and they would have mailed it. But they would have had to enclose it in an envelope.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; because it is addressed to the postmaster in Dallas, Tex., and just as sure as anything it has a New Orleans postmark on it.

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; prior to the Dallas one, if we read the New Orleans one correctly.

Mr. LIEBELER. The New Orleans is hard to read, but it certainly is an October postmark.

Mr. HOLMES. That is the reason I wanted you to read the memo, because the hours are down there and are different from that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now the New Orleans Post Office inspector, or an inspector in the office of New Orleans, has advised you that Oswald filled out a form 3575?

Mr. HOLMES. That is the regular forwarding order.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he did that on September 24; is that correct? Or September 25?

Mr. HOLMES. September 24.

Mr. LIEBELER. September 24, 1963, and his box down there was closed on September 26, presumably pursuant to the order that was mailed to them under postmark of September 24, 1963. Now has the Post Office Department in New Orleans given you any advice at all, as far as you can tell, concerning this Post Office Department Form 3546, which we have marked Holmes Exhibit No. 3-A?

Mr. HOLMES. No; other than their postmark on there. There is no endorsement there. But you see, Lafayette Station is in New Orleans, and it looks like that was completed by the person at Lafayette Station.

Mr. LIEBELER. Inasmuch as that is exactly what it says.

Mr. HOLMES. If that were completed in some other post office, they wouldn't know that box was in Lafayette Station.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me suggest this. There is not the slightest evidence that Oswald ever filled that form out or ever saw it?

Mr. HOLMES. No; that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because it is perfectly obvious this isn't his handwriting.

Mr. HOLMES. That is my opinion, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. So apparently somebody in the New Orleans Post Office filled this form out?

Mr. HOLMES. They could have done it over a telephone instruction, long-distance telephone call.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, they could have done that from the records they had in their possession, because he already had filled out a Post Office Department 3575 instructing to forward mail from Post Office Box 30061 to 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving, which they had received, of course, on September 24?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in any event, we will add this to the pile.

Mr. HOLMES. It is an original card.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show Mr. Holmes has delivered to us the original card which has been marked as Holmes Exhibit No. 1-A.

I don't think I have any other questions. I have cleared up the basic problems we had. Of course, you managed to raise a few more, and I appreciate that. Thank you very much. As I understand it at this point, Mr. Holmes, you have given to us or to the FBI, all of the papers that you found so far in your files relating to Lee Harvey Oswald, is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; you have every original document or item that I have come in contact with in this business.

Mr. LIEBELER. Between us and the FBI?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now it may be as you suggested----

Mr. HOLMES. Except Ruby's.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have given us a copy?

Mr. HOLMES. I have given you a good clear photocopy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right. If you do come across any other papers in your files----

Mr. HOLMES. I will get in touch with Martha Jo [Stroud, assistant U.S. attorney in Dallas, Tex.].

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; let us know. Thank you a lot again.

TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER

The testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier was taken at 10 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Frazier. I believe you have already appeared before the Commission itself and given testimony of your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and his activities; is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you please stand and take the oath. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FRAZIER. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you two or three questions that were not asked you when you appeared before the Commission. Your name is Buell Wesley Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are the same Buell Wesley Frazier, as I understand, who has previously testified before the Commission about Lee Harvey Oswald and about how Oswald rode back and forth with you from Irving to Dallas; isn't that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think he came with you to work on November 22, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You testified in Washington that on that particular morning you saw Oswald carrying a large brown package from the car into the Texas School Book Depository Building and that also you saw that package in the car; isn't that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you described that package and you told us about what you saw in detail at that time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald with the package similar to the one you saw on November 22, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald carry a package from Irving into the Texas School Book Depository Building that looked anything like the package he had on November 22, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see him with a package that looked like that package any other time or at any other place?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's all the questions I have. Thank you very much for coming in.

Mr. FRAZIER. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF JOE MARSHALL SMITH

The testimony of Joe Marshall Smith was taken at 1 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SMITH. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of your hearing. I know you didn't get that, because I just called you this morning, but I assume that since you are here, you are prepared to go ahead without an attorney, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. SMITH. Joe Marshall Smith.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. SMITH. 12015 Androck. That is in Mesquite.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Mr. SMITH. May 1, 1932.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where?

Mr. SMITH. Kleburg, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational background?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I went to grade school in Seagoville up to the second grade. Then I went to Houston, Tex., and finished elementary school there, and then to junior high school, and through high school in Houston, Tex. Then I went into the U.S. Navy.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently a uniformed officer of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SMITH. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SMITH. Oh, nearly 8 years, in September it will be.

Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you have been working basically as a uniformed officer, patrolman?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been working in any specific type of assignment, or just what has been the nature of your work?

Mr. SMITH. Well, I was in radio patrol 3-1/2 years. Then I went to traffic division point control, and that is what I am doing presently.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were assigned to work in the vicinity of Elm and Houston on November 22, 1963, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when you first got that assignment and what you were told.

Mr. SMITH. At approximately 8:45 or 9 o'clock that morning, November 22, we made detail, and Capt. P. W. Lawrence gave us the instructions that we were to, of course, hold the traffic up when the motorcade came through, and to assist in the crowd control, and be specifically on the lookout for anyone throwing anything from the crowd. That is about all I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were with you as you were instructed at the detail at 8:45? That means, there was a formation of something in the office?

Mr. SMITH. There was quite a few there. I don't know how many were there, but nearly the whole traffic department was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they all receive instructions from Captain Lawrence at the same time, or were they different specific instructions broken down?

Mr. SMITH. There were some broken down instructions that some of the men had to stay over to get different detail aimed to them, but that was my instructions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you receive those instructions in writing, or delivered orally?

Mr. SMITH. Delivered orally.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, the captain or someone working with the captain would have a list and he assigned certain men to certain places and gave them general instructions as to what they were to do; is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Men from the department were assigned all along the motorcade route from the airport into downtown Dallas; is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And other men were given instructions similar to or the same as the ones that you were given?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which was to keep traffic out of the way when the motorcade was coming, and keep an open and clear route, and to engage in general crowd control activities?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any instructions given to you men about scanning buildings?

Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't remember. It is more or less the general thing to do. I mean, just police the area. But I don't remember any specific instructions on that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now after you received your instructions at 8:45, what did you do?

Mr. SMITH. I proceeded to the intersection of Elm and Houston, and it was about 9:50 or 10 o'clock when I was on the corner there. At approximately 11:50 or 12 o'clock, there was a white male that had an epileptic seizure on the esplanade on Houston Street between Main and Elm. Well, I went down to see if any assistance was needed, and I stayed there until the white male was loaded into an ambulance and sent to a hospital. Then I proceeded back to my assignment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other officers there in connection with this fellow that had the epileptic fit?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; there was one more. He was a radio patrolman.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his name?

Mr. SMITH. I don't remember his name. I swear, I was trying to think of it before this even.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was a radio patrolman? You mean he was driving a motorcycle or had a car?

Mr. SMITH. No; he was assigned, I think, if I am not mistaken, I think he was assigned to Main and Houston, and he was down there with the man when I arrived at the scene.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you called an ambulance, or an ambulance was called and this man was taken away, and you went back to the corner of Elm and Houston Streets?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were assigned at Elm and Houston?

Mr. SMITH. Three of us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the other two men?

Mr. SMITH. W. E. Barnett, and E. L. Smith. I think that is his initials. I know it is another Smith boy anyway.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you station yourself when you got there?

Mr. SMITH. Just after we got the epileptic seizure en route to the hospital, I hadn't gotten back to the corner but just a few minutes until the motorcade was coming, so I stationed myself on Elm Street in the middle from the southeast curb of Elm and Houston and held traffic up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which direction would this traffic have been coming from that you held up?

Mr. SMITH. It was heading west on Elm.

Mr. LIEBELER. Coming down Elm toward the triple underpass? Coming into the intersection of Elm and Houston?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you were the individual patrolman who went back and held up the traffic to Elm Street; is that right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you would have been on the eastern side of Houston Street on Elm Street holding up the traffic that was coming down Elm Street?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. From that position, could you have observed the windows on the side of the Texas School Book Depository Building room which the shots were fired?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I could see some of the windows. I couldn't see them all, but I was pretty busy getting traffic held up, and I must admit I had my back to the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were facing traffic that was coming down Elm Street toward the triple underpass toward the intersection of Houston Street?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you had no opportunity to scan the windows of the Texas School Book Depository Building at all?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you did not scan the building?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you notice anything extraordinary in the crowd as far as a crowd control is concerned? Did you have any problems in that connection, or was it just a matter of holding up the traffic?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; we didn't have any trouble with the crowd at that particular intersection. They stayed back pretty well as they were told, and I got all the cars stopped, so I thought we had it made.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture, an aerial view of the area that is marked Commission Exhibit No. 354. Could you locate the Texas School Book Depository Building in there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; it should be right there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that is it on the left-hand side of the picture, and of course, the intersection of Elm and Houston is right off opposite the corner there, right at the corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building, and you were standing to the east?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of Houston?

Mr. SMITH. Right along in this area.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is, in fact, a picture of a car stopped there right at the intersection of Elm and Houston, and you had been standing back in the vicinity of the automobile?

Mr. SMITH. Just about the middle of Elm Street here.

Mr. LIEBELER. I will put the No. 4 in a circle on the spot of approximately where you were standing at the time the motorcade went by. Is that approximately correct?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were facing east up Elm Street away from the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that your back was in fact turned to the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now there are two or three other buildings here in the immediate vicinity as you are facing east on Elm Street. There is a building on your left, which is directly across Houston Street from the School Book Depository Building. Do you know what building that is?

Mr. SMITH. I know, but I can't remember now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe any activity in any of the windows of that building?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to look to the windows of that building at any time when the motorcade came by? That would be the building to your left.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I don't recall, but I know that I must have, because I was trying to keep all the crowd in sight that was around. I know that I must have glanced at it, but I don't recall seeing anything unusual.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the building across Elm Street on your right? That is the county building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. There are a series of windows in that building facing the triple underpass. Could you observe those windows from the point where you were standing?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not where I could tell whether they were open or closed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were standing too far up Elm Street to have a good vantage point from which to observe these windows?

Mr. SMITH. I mean on Houston Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what I mean.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't have been able to see the windows of the building that is down on the intersection of Main and Houston Streets at all from where you were standing?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you could have seen, it would have been with great difficulty, so you weren't in position to observe those windows, and you didn't in fact observe them, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. While you were standing here and the motorcade went by, tell us what happened at that point.

Mr. SMITH. I heard the shots.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you turn to watch the motorcade? Did you turn to watch the President as the motorcade went by?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I glanced around and was watching the crowd to make sure they stayed back out of the way of the motorcade, and also to make sure none of the cars started up or anything. Then I heard the shots, and I immediately proceeded from this point.

Mr. LIEBELER. Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea, because it was such a ricochet.

Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.

Mr. LIEBELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?

Mr. SMITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.

I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man?

Mr. SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who it was?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't--because then we started checking the cars. In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars, and I started over here in this particular section.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down toward the railroad tracks where they go over the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; except that maybe it was a power of suggestion. But it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down around the--let's put a No. 5 there at the corner here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward the railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say that you had the idea that the shots may have come from up in that area?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that is just what, well, like I say, the sound of it. That was the most helpless and hopeless feeling I ever had.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you mentioned before there was an echo from the shots in the area.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Probably caused by the fact that there are some large buildings around the area where the shots were fired from?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you at any time have occasion to look up to the railroad tracks that went across the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I looked up there after I was going up to check there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any occasion to look up there before you heard the shots?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you proceeded down along the bushes here between the street that runs in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and Elm Street to approximately point 5, and then when you went down looking to the cars, you then had occasion to look up at the railroad tracks running over the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody up there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was two other officers there, I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other people up there, that you can remember?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; none that I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that there were two police officers up there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you searched these cars in this parking lot area down there by the railroad tracks on from point 5 down toward the main railroad tracks that cross over the triple underpass. Did you find anything that you could associate in any way with the assassination?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you remain down in that area?

Mr. SMITH. Oh, I would say approximately 15 to 20 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you continued searching through automobiles and searching the general area in the parking lot back there; is that right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you had searched this area?

Mr. SMITH. Well, it was, I don't remember whether this was a deputy sheriff--I don't know his name--he was in civilian clothes--he said they came from the building up here. And by that time, of course, all the police around there sealed the building off, and I went to the front door here on the, well, you might say, the Houston Street side. I and Barnett, and we sealed the front door and didn't let anyone in or out until he was passed by the chief.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this. Before you went up to the School Book Depository Building, am I correct in understanding that you did thoroughly search the area of the parking lot, you and the other officers?

Mr. SMITH. Well, now, I didn't go into all the cars. I looked into them, and I was well satisfied in my mind that he wasn't around there.

Some of the cars were locked, and I just looked into all of them around there, and I went back to the building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who gave you instructions to go to the front door of that building, do you remember?

Mr. SMITH. I believe it was Sergeant Howard.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sergeant Howard?

Mr. SMITH. Sergeant Howard, or Sergeant Harkness.

Mr. LIEBELER. So to the best of your recollection, it was one of those two men?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. Wait--let's strike that. No; it wasn't. It was Chief Lumpkin give us the direct order, I and Barnett, not to let anyone in or out of that building; that's right--Deputy Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see him in order to receive that order?

Mr. SMITH. I started back up here to the building, and we were just about at the front door when he contacted me and Barnett then.

Mr. LIEBELER. He instructed you and Barnett to stand at the front door and not let anyone in or out?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately what time that was?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it must have been about 1. It was after 1 o'clock. I don't remember; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you and Barnett remain there at the front door?

Mr. SMITH. Until about 2:30; I think I got off there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time go into the building?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether other men were assigned to watch the back door?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't know. I am quite certain there was.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no personal knowledge of it at the time?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were assigned to the front door, and that is where you stayed?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, did you let anybody in or out of the building?

Mr. SMITH. Well, now, we let police officers in, of course, and firemen.

Mr. LIEBELER. The firemen came into the building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was something on that that they had to get some--what was that, I don't recall what it was that they come in there for now.

Mr. LIEBELER. There were some firemen from the Dallas Fire Department that went into the building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come back to the front door?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about Secret Service; were there any Secret Service agents around?

Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Agent Sorrels, the agent in charge of the Dallas office of the Secret Service?

Mr. SMITH. I saw him a few minutes, but I don't know him personally.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing him around that day?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time see Lee Harvey Oswald come in or out of the building, or in the area at all?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything that happened while you were standing there with Barnett at the front door that you think would be of significance that the Commission should know about that I haven't asked you about?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just maintained the general guard duty there and only let the police officers and fire department in, and you don't have any specific recollection as to Secret Service agents. How about FBI agents; were there some of those?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there were FBI agents.

Mr. LIEBELER. You let them go in?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific FBI agents that were there?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember any of the names.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who finally relieved you from that particular duty post?

Mr. SMITH. Let me think here a minute now. Chief Lumpkin, I know--I don't recall who the officer was.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think it is of any particular importance if you can't recall. What did you do after you were finally relieved?

Mr. SMITH. I don't know if this is of significance either, but they had set up, the Salvation Army had some coffee and I had a cup of coffee and proceeded on back to the Mercantile Bank. I had an extra job there that evening.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were relieved from your duty post?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And went on about your own personal affairs?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you conduct any additional investigation or have anything to do with the investigation of the assassination after that?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Officer Tippit?

Mr. SMITH. Remotely. I didn't know him real well. Just knew him when I saw him.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first hear about Oswald's capture?

Mr. SMITH. It was after I left my post.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you left your post?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; in fact, just before I got off from working at the bank. Just before 6 o'clock. A squad of detectives, I don't recall their names, but they told me they got a man over at the Texas Theatre that they thought might have been the one.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots and went from Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354 down to point 5 searching the bushy area here, did you have any occasion to look up in the windows of any of the buildings surrounding the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I was--pardon the expression--beating the bushes and checking the cars.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you never saw anything in any of those windows at all?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the traffic patterns on these three streets here, Commerce, Main, and Elm Streets, as they go down under the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The motorcade came down Main Street from the east to the intersection of Main Street and Houston, did it not?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; headed west on Main.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and it turned right on Houston Street and then turned left on Elm and was headed toward the triple underpass when the assassination occurred. What would have prevented the motorcade from going directly down Main Street under the triple underpass, remembering now that the motorcade wanted to go onto Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, could you have gone straight down Main Street and gotten onto Stemmons Freeway down here?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where the three streets go under the triple overpass, there is a concrete barrier between Elm Street and Main Street; is there not?

Mr. SMITH. What do you mean?

Mr. LIEBELER. Where the streets actually go under the railroad tracks here.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now where is the entrance as we go off, as we see the three streets going off the picture here, Commission Exhibit No. 354? Where is the entrance to the Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. SMITH. It is back off.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is not shown on the picture?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it is back off here.

Mr. LIEBELER. To go down Stemmons Expressway or Freeway towards the trade mart, you would have to turn how? Would you turn to your right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now could you have actually gone off to the right and crossed over Elm Street if you had been on Main Street and gone under the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. They merge.

Mr. LIEBELER. They all merge together down there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. So as far as you know, there was no reason why the motorcade couldn't have gone straight down Elm Street and gone on to the Stemmons Freeway headed for the trade mart?

Mr. SMITH. As far as I know, there is no reason.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible that as you come down Main Street, if you stayed directly on Main Street going under the triple underpass, that you might have difficulty in making the turn with a big car from Main Street to go onto Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions about the situation, unless you can think of something else that you might have seen or observed that day that I haven't asked you about that you think the Commission should know.

Mr. SMITH. Sir, I just can't think of anything else.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming over. I appreciate your cooperation.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; thank you.

TESTIMONY OF WELCOME EUGENE BARNETT

The testimony of Welcome Eugene Barnett was taken at 3:50 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before you sit down, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BARNETT. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney for the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Pursuant to the rules of the Commission governing the taking of testimony, you are entitled to have an attorney present if you want one, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing. I know you did not get the 3 days' notice because of schedule difficulties that we had, and you were just advised of it this morning, I believe. I assume, however, that since you are here, that you are prepared to go ahead with your testimony without having an attorney.

Mr. BARNETT. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. BARNETT. Welcome Eugene Barnett.

Mr. LIEBELER. When and where were you born?

Mr. BARNETT. July 12, 1932, New Hope, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are apparently a uniformed officer of the Dallas Police Department, isn't that right?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been in the Dallas police?

Mr. BARNETT. Eight and a half years.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you were assigned to the area of Elm and Houston Streets on November 22, 1963; is that correct?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you received instructions to go there, when you received them, what you were told, and what happened? Would you tell us what happened on that day, in other words?

Mr. BARNETT. We made detail around 9 o'clock. We were instructed to be at our assignments at 10. We were given our assignments, each one was given an assignment, and I was told to watch the crowd, watch for people throwing stuff from the crowd at the President's party, to keep the traffic clear, and to stop the traffic when the President came by. Then when the President came by, I heard three shots.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, going back, you got to the area around 10 o'clock; is that right?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go when you got there?

Mr. BARNETT. Well, there were three of us assigned to that one corner.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the other officers?

Mr. BARNETT. Who were the other officers?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. BARNETT. J. D. Smith, and another officer named Smith. I don't know his initials. E. L., I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you divide your duties among yourselves when you got there, or had you been specifically instructed as to what each one was supposed to do?

Mr. BARNETT. We divided our duties.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you do that?

Mr. BARNETT. Well, as best I remember, we each picked a corner and got on the corner. We were advised to stay on our corner, not to cross over to idly talk, but to stay on the corner and keep our eyes open and be ready.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which corner did you station yourself at? I have a picture here of an aerial view--you can sit down--Commission Exhibit No. 354.

Of course, you can recognize the intersection of Elm and Houston here in the left-hand upper portion of the picture; can you not?

Mr. BARNETT. I was right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. At No. 1?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you remain there at all times from 10 o'clock until the motorcade arrived?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes; well, of course, I was here until we got word to stop the traffic, and I stepped out of this position here. I had to stop traffic from Houston here and help the other officers stop it on Elm, and stop this traffic on this small street that goes in front of the Depository Building.

Mr. LIEBELER. When the motorcade actually came, you moved over pretty much into Houston Street?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. To stop the traffic that was coming?

Mr. BARNETT. South on Houston Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. South on Houston Street?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; Elm Street is so wide, and I helped these officers here stop this traffic here.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have written the No. 4 on here before and it is kind of hard to read. You also helped to stop the traffic that was coming down here in the area of No. 4, which would have been the traffic on Elm Street?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; I was standing right about this position right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right about No. 8?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now specifically, were you given any instructions when you left that morning when you made detail, to observe and scan the windows of the buildings around that area?

Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; we weren't, but that is just one thing you always do. It is understood that you have the buildings to watch.

Mr. LIEBELER. But there were no specific instructions given to any of the officers, so far as you know, when they left that morning, about watching the windows in the area?

Mr. BARNETT. I don't see any use in being instructed on that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, regardless of that fact----

Mr. BARNETT. There was no instructions; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now from where you were standing at position 1 prior to the motorcade's arrival, you were in a position to view the windows on the entire south side of the Texas School Book Depository Building; were you not?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at those windows?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did you look up at those windows before the motorcade came? Can you tell us with what frequency?

Mr. BARNETT. I looked up twice. Maybe once at 11, probably a few minutes after 11--probably a few minutes after 11. It was raining part of the morning, and when I found out that the people in the building were going to come outside and watch the President, I looked up at the building, and then I looked at all the buildings, and there were no windows that I noticed open then. But after a few minutes before the President came by, I didn't look any more. I started watching the crowd.

Mr. LIEBELER. So just before the motorcade approached, you moved over and also stopped the automobile traffic and were observing the crowd, so you did not look at the windows on or about the time the motorcade came?

Mr. BARNETT. I couldn't. I was too busy. [Referring to picture.] I got this in the wrong place. It needs to be about this position right here, instead of here. I was right here. I got it too far, but I could see the President's car from the position I was, so I had to be right here [pointing].

Mr. LIEBELER. You are satisfied you were further out into the intersection?

Mr. BARNETT. Right there [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. [Marking]. In the general vicinity of No. 9?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; the car passed within a few feet of me, and I was holding some people, or seeing that they stayed back, and one small boy started. I was afraid he was going to get too close and I stopped him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now the motorcade made the turn onto Elm Street from Houston Street, and you were standing at approximately in position No. 9, and you indicated before that you heard the shots fired: is that right?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. BARNETT. Three.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any echo in the area from where you were standing?

Mr. BARNETT. What do you mean by echo? You mean another sound besides the shots?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. BARNETT. No; I didn't hear any echo. The whole sound echoed. The sound lingered, but as far as just two definite distinct sounds, when each shot was fired, that one sound would linger in the air, but there would be nothing else until the next shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any of the shots hit the President?

Mr. BARNETT. Well, when the first shot--I was looking at the President when the first shot was fired, and I thought I saw him slump down, but I am not sure, and I didn't look any more then. I thought he was ducking then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you were standing up there in position No. 9, you were in a spot where you could look right down Elm Street and see the railroad tracks down here which pass over the triple underpass?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody on the railroad tracks?

Mr. BARNETT. One or two officers. Two officers, I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else, as far as you can recall?

Mr. BARNETT. That is all I saw.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an opinion when you heard the shots as to where they came from?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you think about them?

Mr. BARNETT. When the first shot was fired, I thought it was a firecracker, and I looked across the street. In fact, I scanned the whole area to see where people would jump or move or make some action.

Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't tell specifically where it had come from?

Mr. BARNETT. Not the first one, but I thought it was a firecracker. But none of the people moved or took any action, whereas they would have if a firecracker went off. And when the second shot was fired, it sounded high. The sound of the second one seemed to me like it was coming from up high, and I looked up at the building and I saw nothing in the windows. In fact, I couldn't even see any windows at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; because I was standing too close, was the reason. And I looked back again at the crowd, and the third shot was fired. And I looked up again, and I decided it had to be on top of that building. To me, it is the only place the sound could be coming from.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do when you concluded that the shots were coming from that building?

Mr. BARNETT. I ran to the back of the building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Ran down Houston Street?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a door in the back of the Texas School Book Depository. Does it face on Houston or around the corner?

Mr. BARNETT. It is around the corner from Houston Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go in the building?

Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; I didn't get close to it, because I was watching for a fire escape. If the man was on top, he would have to come down, and I was looking for a fire escape, and I didn't pay much attention to the door.

I was still watching the top of the building, and so far as I could see, the fire escape on the east side was the only escape down.

Mr. LIEBELER. Since you surmised that the shots had come from the building, you looked up and you didn't see any windows open. You thought they had been fired from the top of the building?

Mr. BARNETT. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the fire escape?

Mr. BARNETT. I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody coming off the fire escape up there, or any movement on top of the building?

Mr. BARNETT. Not a thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you went around behind the building?

Mr. BARNETT. I looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the building and I saw officers going west.

Mr. LIEBELER. Going west down that little street there in front of the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes; but there was no sign they were going into the building or watching the building, so I decided I was the only one watching the building. So since this was the only fire escape and there was officers down here watching this back door, I returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape. Then I decided maybe I had been wrong, so I saw the officers down here searching.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the officers went on down toward No. 5 on our Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. BARNETT. When I got to the front, some of the officers were coming back toward me, started back toward me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were still back near the intersection of Elm and Houston?