Chapter XLI: Part 41

Mr. LIEBELER. You are pointing out a concrete abutment that comes up immediately to the right of the sign that reads "Stemmons Freeway, Keep Right"?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right. That's the girl behind me--that's my girl that works in my office. She was up there, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you and this girl are shown standing on top of this concrete abutment there?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right--she was right behind me and that's from where I took the pictures.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then, you can actually see yourself in this picture, can't you?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, I can't distinguish myself being--I know I was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that this picture was taken at the time you were there?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; I was there and I would say this couldn't be anybody else, unless--if this is an authentic photograph and it isn't composed now or changed--I would say that's me. That's the first time I have seen that. Were these pictures ever published in a magazine--there were pictures like that I suppose--actually?

Mr. LIEBELER. This picture here is in fact one of a series of pictures that is being sold down here in Dallas by a fellow named Willis, I believe his name is Phil Willis. He has a series of slides that are available and it's picture No. 5 of those slides in which you can see yourself back there.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That must be it because there's another couple back there--I took some from there and I was shooting some of the pictures to start my roll from the beginning. I didn't want to have a blank and I shot some, in fact, they have it--the Federal Bureau of Investigation have those pictures.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you stood there on this abutment with your camera, the motorcade came down Houston Street and turned left on Elm Street, did it not?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it proceeded then down Elm Street toward the triple underpass; is that correct?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what happened as you took the pictures.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, as the car came in line almost--I believe it was almost in line--I was standing up here and I was shooting through a telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about--I imagine it was around here--I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area).

Mr. LIEBELER. Grab himself on the front of his chest?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Right--something like that. In other words, he was sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was sitting upright in the car and you heard the shot and you saw the President slump over?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Leaning--leaning toward the side of Jacqueline. For a moment I thought it was, you know, like you say, "Oh, he got me," when you hear a shot--you've heard these expressions and then I saw--I don't believe the President is going to make jokes like this, but before I had a chance to organize my mind, I heard a second shot and then I saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and I started--I can hardly talk about it [the witness crying].

Mr. LIEBELER. That's all right, Mr. Zapruder, would you like a drink of water? Why don't you step out and have a drink of water?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I'm sorry--I'm ashamed of myself really, but I couldn't help it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Nobody should ever be ashamed of feeling that way, Mr. Zapruder. I feel the same way myself. It was a terrible thing.

Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you heard altogether.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The whole thing that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see--I got a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a third shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't hear any shot after you saw him hit?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I heard the second--after the first shot--I saw him leaning over and after the second shot--it's possible after what I saw, you know, then I started yelling, "They killed him, they killed him," and I just felt that somebody had ganged up on him and I was still shooting the pictures until he got under the underpass--I don't even know how I did it. And then, I didn't even remember how I got down from that abutment there, but there I was, I guess, and I was walking toward--back toward my office and screaming, "They killed him, they killed him," and the people that I met on the way didn't even know what happened and they kept yelling, "What happened, what happened, what happened?" It seemed that they had heard a shot but they didn't know exactly what had happened as the car sped away, and I kept on just yelling, "They killed him, they killed him, they killed him," and finally got to my office and my secretary--I told her to call the police or the Secret Service--I don't know what she was doing, and that's about all. I was very much upset. Naturally, I couldn't imagine such a thing being done. I just went to my desk and stopped there until the police came and then we were required to get a place to develop the films. I knew I had something, I figured it might be of some help--I didn't know what.

As to what happened--I remember the police were running behind me. There were police running right behind me. Of course, they didn't realize yet, I guess, where the shot came from--that it came from that height.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you were standing on this abutment facing Elm street, you say the police ran over behind the concrete structure behind you and down the railroad track behind that, is that right?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. After the shots?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes--after the shots--yes, some of them were motorcycle cops--I guess they left their motorcycles running and they were running right behind me, of course, in the line of the shooting. I guess they thought it came from right behind me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. No, I also thought it came from back of me. Of course, you can't tell when something is in line--it could come from anywhere, but being I was here and he was hit on this line and he was hit right in the head--I saw it right around here, so it looked like it came from here and it could come from there.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. From the direction behind you?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, actually--I couldn't say what I thought at the moment, where they came from--after the impact of the tragedy was really what I saw and I started and I said--yelling, "They've killed him"--I assumed that they came from there, because as the police started running back of me, it looked like it came from the back of me.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't form any opinion at that time as to what direction the shots did come from actually?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you indicated that they could have come also from behind or from any other direction except perhaps from the left, because they could have been from behind or even from the front.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, it could have been--in other words if you have a point--you could hit a point from any place, as far as that's concerned. I have no way of determining what direction the bullet was going.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion about the direction from which the shots came by the sound, or were you just upset by the thing you had seen?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. No, there was too much reverberation. There was an echo which gave me a sound all over. In other words that square is kind of--it had a sound all over.

Mr. LIEBELER. And with the buildings around there, too?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, the reverberation was such that a sound--as it would vibrate--it didn't vibrate so much but as to whether it was a backfire--in other words, I didn't from the first sound, from him leaning over--I couldn't think it was a shot, but of course, the second--I think it was the second shot. I don't know whether they proved anything--they claim he was hit--that the first bullet went through him and hit Connally or something like that--I don't know how that is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, there are many different theories about that. One thing I would like you to do now--we have a series--a little book here that is Commission Exhibit No. 885 and it consists of a number of frames from motion pictures and I want to show you certain numbers of them which are important to our work and ask you if those look like they were taken from your film and if in fact you could recognize it as you look through this book that these are individual frame-by-frame pictures of the pictures that you took.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, they are frame by frame and they weren't very clear, for the simple reason that on the telephoto lens it's good to take stills--when you move--did you ever have binoculars and every time you move everything is exaggerated in the move--that's one reason why they are kind of blurred--the movement. Now, you want me to identify whether these are my pictures?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, specifically, I first call your attention to No. 185. This is No. 185 on the back of it and will you look at the whole book and identify it if you can and tell us that those are the pictures that--that those appear to be the pictures or copies of the pictures that you took from your motion picture camera?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, I would say this, they look like--if they were taken from the film I had--these are the ones. I mean, I don't know how to express myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, they were.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, it looks like them--that's when they turned in from Elm Street. Is that it? I'm trying to visualize it. This is taking it from the opposite side of me, is it, where I would have been taking it, because I see this structure--I have been around there and--or these--this couldn't be here--where did they get this in there--how did they get this in there, if I was taking the pictures where did they get this in there? That shouldn't be there.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the thing back up behind on Dealy Plaza, I think, isn't it?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. They have one there, too?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, I think there is. Now, if you will look at Hudson Exhibit No. 1, you will see that there is some kind of concrete structure there and is a different kind from that figure. It has bigger holes in it.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right--in the back of this here, that's where it is--that's what I thought it was--that's where I got mixed up.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought that the concrete latticework on the individual pictures in Commission Exhibit No. 885----

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Now I see it--that's where they have moved now the flowers and all that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes--I have to state this for the record--so they can understand what we are talking about--you confused it with the concrete lattice work shown in the background in the individual photographs in Commission Exhibit No. 885, with the larger and obviously different concrete structure in the background of Hudson Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, that--there is Elm Street there--this is a corner.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, specifically here--let me show you the ones that have been numbered 185 and 186 and see if you can recognize those. This is 185 here that we are looking at now--of Commission Exhibit No. 885.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. This is where he came in from Houston Street and turned there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and they are going down Elm Street now?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; this is before--this shouldn't be there--the shot wasn't fired, was it? You can't tell from here?

Mr. LIEBELER. (no response).

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I believe it was closer down here where it happened. Of course, on the film they could see better but you take an 8 millimeter and you enlarge it in color or in black and white, you lose a lot of detail. I wish I had an enlarger here for you.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, frame No. 185 does look like it's one of the frames, sir?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And 186 is similar also?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I've got a list of them here that I want to ask you about--picture 207 and turn on over to this picture. It appears that a sign starts to come in the picture--there was a sign in the picture.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; there were signs there also and trees and somehow--I told them I was going to get the whole view and I must have.

Mr. LIEBELER. But the sign was in the way?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; but I must have neglected one part--I know what has happened--I think this was after that happened--something had happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when you looked at your pictures yourself, do you remember that there was a sign that does appear between the camera and the motorcade itself and you can see the motorcade for a while and the sign comes in the view?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the motorcade comes behind it. Now, what about picture No. 210--however--there is no No. 210 in here.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about No. 222? Now, in No. 222 you can see the President's car coming out from behind the sign.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you can see Governor Connally right there in that center seat, I believe?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; Governor Connally--yes--these are all the same pictures--I remember the car was kind of buried and I was kind of low and I don't know how I got that view--I didn't get just the full view of the shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's turn to 225 and there the car is coming further out from behind the sign.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that still the same part of the sequence?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You can now see the President for the first time.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; that's the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. The President appears to have his hand up by his throat as he is just coming from behind the sign.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; it looks like he was hit--it seems--there--somewhere behind the sign. You see, he is still sitting upright.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; he's sitting up and holding his hand up.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Do we have the sequence--the next frames?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it will be No. 227 and his hand comes up even more and he starts to move a little to his left.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Apparently. And they started speeding the car then to--but he is still sitting up here. Is that still the President here?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; in picture No. 228--he still appears to have his hand up and in No. 229 it's even more pronounced.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. As the car keeps coming up from behind and in picture 230 he has raised both hands up.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. It looks to me like he went like this--did he go to his throat--I don't remember--I thought he went like this [holding both hands on the left side of his chest]. Did it show?

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's turn over to picture 231 here--these still appear to be the same sequence of pictures, do they not?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; you get about 16 per second and I think my camera was moving a little fast, maybe 18 frames per second, you see, we have a lot of pictures on there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And 235 is there.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; we've got that.

Mr. LIEBELER. In 235 both hands are up by his throat there or up to the top of his chest and Mrs. Kennedy is looking at him.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. To me it looks like it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean it looks to you as though he moved a little more sharply perhaps?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Toward her--there are so many frames, of course, this is probably his first reaction, but he leaned over--it would be after the shot was fired, after I heard a sound, he went like this [leaning to the left and holding both hands to the left side of his chest].

Mr. LIEBELER. He moved over to his left and pulled his hands there?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; he moved to the left and pulled his hands somewhat in this direction.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does picture 235 appear to be one of the pictures that was taken from your sequence?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about 240--let's turn over to 240 and there he has turned his head toward the left a little bit more.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. There's only about 100 frames--they are so close.

Mr. LIEBELER. Five frames?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Five frames is nothing--I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about 249?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. No. 249--I just wonder if it was the motion that he went back with that I don't remember--it looks like he has got his hand on his head--I don't remember seeing that. Of course, the pictures would show.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; when you pick one of them out it's hard to break it down and pick them out.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; it's hard. We run them in single frames--and to get the main shot--it's hard.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let's turn over to picture 255--these all do look like they are from your film?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; they are--I know this--I have seen it so many times. In fact, I used to have nightmares. The thing would come every night--I wake up and see this.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about 255--what about that one?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's still the same series.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's still the same series--they keep moving along.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And let's look at No. 213--as we go along here--then he does start moving sharply to the left.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; when you take it frame by frame, it could have been just 2 or 3 seconds, but the impression was that he was leaning over and not just sitting there and looking over that and grabbing himself at the left side.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; moving toward Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's what impressed me. Now, what number are you on?

Mr. LIEBELER. 313--you remember that one?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That was--that was the horrible one.

Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to you then, that this book of pictures here as you look through it, are your pictures?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Zapruder, after you had the film developed I understand Mr. Sorrels from the Secret Service came over and helped you get the films developed and you gave two copies of your films to Mr. Sorrels, is that correct?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. One we have sent to Washington the same night and one went over for the viewers of the FBI on Ervay Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's the Secret Service?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. The Secret Service--I brought one roll there and they told me to dispatch it by Army plane or I don't know what they had done with it but it was supposed to have gone to Washington and one of them, I believe, remained here with Mr. Sorrels. He came to my office quite a few times to show them to different people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I understand that you, yourself, retained the original film?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. No; I don't have that at all--I don't have any at all. They were sold to Time and Life magazines.

Mr. LIEBELER. You sold that to Life magazine?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission is interested in one aspect of this and I would like to ask you if you would mind telling us how much they paid you for that film.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. For the film?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, I just wonder whether I should answer it or not because it involves a lot of things and it's not one price--it's a question of how they are going to use it, are they going to use it or are they not going to use it, so I will say I really don't know how to answer that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I am not going to even urge you to answer the question. We will ask it and if you would rather not answer it--the Commission feels it would be helpful.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I received $25,000, as you know, and I have given that to the Firemen's and Policemen's Benevolence with a suggestion for Mrs. Tippit. You know that?

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know that--you received $25,000?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. $25,000 was paid and I have given it to the Firemen's and Policemen's Fund.

Mr. LIEBELER. You gave the whole $25,000?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. This was all over the world. I got letters from all over the world and newspapers--I mean letters from all over the world. It was all over the world--I am surprised--that you don't know it--I don't like to talk about it too much.

Mr. LIEBELER. We appreciate your answer very much.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I haven't done anything, the way I have given it, at a time like this.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to tell you, you may not be aware of it yourself, but I want to tell you that your film has been one of the most helpful things to the work of the Commission that we could possibly have had because it has enabled us to study the various positions of the people in the car and to determine by comparing it with the reenactment--by comparing it to the view from the window of the building, to develop with a fair degree of accuracy the facts here.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I understand--and I am willing to be helpful but I am sorry it had to be on an occasion like this. I am willing to be helpful but I wish this would never have happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's right.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I know they have taken my camera to Washington.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was a Bell & Howell camera, isn't that right?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you turned it over to the FBI and they have made tests on it?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; and then Bell & Howell wanted it for their archives and I thought they were through with it and let them have it. In return, they gave me, not for my personal use, but a sound projector which was given to the Golden Age Group. It's a place where old folks have a home. I asked them to donate something. I didn't want the camera. I didn't want anything for myself. Then the FBI wanted the camera again and I referred them to the Bell & Howell people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the FBI asked for the camera back because the Commission wanted to determine whether there was any difference in the frame speed as the camera unwound itself, as it went along.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, they claimed they told me it was about 2 frames fast--instead of 16 it was 18 frames and they told me it was about 2 frames fast in the speed and they told me that the time between the 2 rapid shots, as I understand, that was determined--the length of time it took to the second one and that they were very fast and they claim it has proven it could be done by 1 man. You know there was indication there were two?

Mr. LIEBELER. Your films were extremely helpful to the work of the Commission, Mr. Zapruder.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I am only sorry I broke down--I didn't know I was going to do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Zapruder, I want to thank you very much, for the Commission, for coming down. It has been very helpful.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, I am ashamed of myself. I didn't know I was going to break down and for a man to--but it was a tragic thing, and when you started asking me that, and I saw the thing all over again, and it was an awful thing--I know very few people who had seen it like that--it was an awful thing and I loved the President, and to see that happen before my eyes--his head just opened up and shot down like a dog--it leaves a very, very deep sentimental impression with you; it's terrible.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you don't have to feel ashamed about that at all, and thank you very much. I enjoyed meeting you very much.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. All right, any time you want some more help you can call on me and I will be glad to come in.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you a lot.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Goodbye.

TESTIMONY OF PERDUE WILLIAM LAWRENCE

The testimony of Perdue William Lawrence was taken at 9:15 p.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel's staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and the Commission has been set up by Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress. These two official acts have directed the Commission to investigate into the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, to evaluate all the facts we find and report back to President Johnson upon them. We have asked you to come here in particular this evening, Captain Lawrence, because we are interested in the security precautions that were taken both in connection with the protection of President Kennedy and in the prospective transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald to the county jail. I might say that there are a set of rules and regulations that have been promulgated by the Commission and under these rules and regulations I have been designated to take your deposition. You are entitled to receive a written notice 3 days in advance from the Commission. It has been the practice with all of the police officers who have testified that we have simply written a letter to Chief Curry and he has been good enough to make you people available. I assume that you haven't received proper notice, and I will ask you at this time if you are willing to waive that notice?

Captain LAWRENCE. Certainly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Since you are willing to waive the notice, if you will raise your right hand I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain LAWRENCE. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Captain LAWRENCE. Not my initials--my full name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your full name.

Captain LAWRENCE. Perdue [spelling]. P-e-r-d-u-e William Lawrence [spelling], L-a-w-r-e-n-c-e.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Lawrence?

Captain LAWRENCE. 1623 South Clinton.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Captain LAWRENCE. In August--1911--August 18.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed with the Dallas Police Department?

Captain LAWRENCE. I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what is your rank?

Captain LAWRENCE. Captain of police.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long have you been with the police department?

Captain LAWRENCE. Nineteen years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you captain of police on November 22, 1963?

Captain LAWRENCE. I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in charge of any particular department?

Captain LAWRENCE. Traffic at this particular time. I am in charge of the accident prevention bureau of the Dallas Police Department, but my specific assignment was traffic control for the Presidential motorcade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a special 1-day assignment that you had?

Captain LAWRENCE. Well, in this particular case--it was for this particular occasion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any other person in the department who regularly was concerned with what you call traffic control?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; Capt. R. A. Thompson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any reason why you handled the traffic control responsibilities for the Presidential motorcade rather than Captain Thompson?

Captain LAWRENCE. None that I know of; none that I can think of except that Chief Batchelor saw me and said, "I want you to get together with Lieutenant Southard." Lieutenant Southard works for Captain Thompson and we were to use my motorcycle officers and his corner men, so, because of the motorcade part of it, I assume that this was the reason that it was turned over to me. Normally on parade or a special assignment and such, this is under the jurisdiction of Captain Thompson, but because of the escort part of it, I am assuming that this was why it was given to me. I would like to also add that Captain Thompson and I work evenings on alternate Friday and Saturday nights, and I was scheduled to work daytime hours on Friday, November 22, and this may also be a reason I was given this particular assignment. Captain Thompson did work evenings on Friday, November 22, 1963, and Saturday, November 23, 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you participated in other traffic control projects in the past?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; I had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever been involved in one that involved the President of the United States or any other important official who required special protection?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; I had not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In your experience in the Dallas Police Department, had there ever been a time when there had been a President or an important person who had come through who required special protection?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; but not in which I was directly assigned to any duties. When President Kennedy came to town to visit Mr. Rayburn at Baylor Hospital, Lieutenant Curtis was in charge of that detail and I don't know if I was on a day off or what it was, but I was not in charge of that detail at all. I made none of those arrangements.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From whom did you receive your instructions in connection with the duties that you were to carry out?

Captain LAWRENCE. My immediate superior was Deputy Chief R. H. Lunday, and I received my instructions from Chief Lunday and Asst. Chief Batchelor; both of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you first told that you were to be in charge of this traffic control?

Captain LAWRENCE. The first day was on a Tuesday--November 19.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And who told you at that time?

Captain LAWRENCE. Chief Batchelor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did Chief Batchelor tell you at that time that your responsibilities would be?

Captain LAWRENCE. He told me he wanted me to go over this route and to start working with the assignments of men to the intersections on the motorcade route, and he said that he had gone over this route and handed me a list of intersections that he wanted covered and the amount of men he wanted on each intersection and the reason he wanted more than one or two at certain intersections was because of the turning movements of the motorcade, but he also wanted assignments made to certain overpasses and told me the number of men that he would like to have stationed on the overpasses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you the names of the particular men he wanted on the overpass?

Captain LAWRENCE. He gave me the names of no men. He told me to make the assignments, and when he handed me this list, he was either with Chief Lunday or I went immediately to Chief Lunday and asked for the assistance of Lt. W. F. Southard because he--his men would be directly involved also in these assignments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I notice you have a list in your hand. Is that the list Chief Batchelor gave you?

Captain LAWRENCE. That's the list that Chief Batchelor gave me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mind if we marked this and returned this for our file?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; not a bit. I would like to add that it was not requested that I bring any papers with me. I did bring with me some original personnel assignment notes for the purpose of refreshing my memory, and I see no reason why my superiors would object to any requests made by this Committee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me now turn this over and I will state for the record that it consists of five small white sheets of paper, roughly 2-1/2 by 5 inches in size, and there are a number of handwritten notations on it and I'm going to mark this on the back.

Captain LAWRENCE. I believe this to be the handwriting of Chief Batchelor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I'm going to mark this Capt. P. W. Lawrence Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1. In handing this memo to you, did Chief Batchelor say anything to you about what the men on the overpass were supposed to do?

Captain LAWRENCE. He was stationing the men on the overpass to see that no one else came onto the overpass so that no one would be over the motorcade when the President passed under it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than stationing people at intersections, were you given any instructions as to stationing men in between blocks?

Captain LAWRENCE. Not at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the 18th of November did you later receive further instructions from your superiors?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you next receive instructions?

Captain LAWRENCE. I next received instructions well, during the week we discussed this with Chief Lunday and Assistant Chief Batchelor--certain assignments as far as the motorcycle escorts were concerned, and not directly at that time regarding stationing of any men on any particular corner.

I might add that when Lieutenant Southard and I went over this route, we found one intersection open and which was on Record Street, which raised our total--this is my writing here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, this is at the bottom of the second page and you have written in the word "Record."

Captain LAWRENCE. That's right--that's my handwriting and during that week I was next told, of course, to contact other people regarding the route connected with the motorcade to see that no trains would be coming across at the time that the Presidential motorcade was passing through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. These were grade crossings that you are talking about?

Captain LAWRENCE. Grade crossing--yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time of your first meeting with Chief Batchelor were you given any special instructions about the protection of the President?

Captain LAWRENCE. None.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the next time you received some instructions from one of your superiors?

Captain LAWRENCE. The next time was, to the best of my knowledge, the motorcade assignments--possibly 2 days before the President arrived--I asked how we would escort this motorcade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And with whom did you discuss that?

Captain LAWRENCE. Chief Lunday and Chief Batchelor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody from the Secret Service present at that time?

Captain LAWRENCE. Not at that time--no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you told about the purpose of the officers that were being provided, if anything?

Captain LAWRENCE. I was told that there would be these lead motorcycle officers, and that we would also have these other officers alongside the President's car and the Vice President's car, and some of the others that would be in the motorcade, and approximately how many officers would be needed for the escort, and at that time I had prepared a list of 18 solo motorcycle officers, this included three solo sergeants.

I was also instructed that about this motorcade--that when it reached Stemmons Expressway, Chief Batchelor told me that he wanted a solo motorcycle officer in each traffic lane, each of the five traffic lanes waiting for the motorcade, so that no vehicles, on Stemmons Expressway would pass the motorcade at all and he wanted these solo motorcycle officers to pull away from the escort and get up there on Stemmons Freeway and block the traffic, and some of these officers, he stated, would pull past the Presidential car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this include blocking oncoming traffic?

Captain LAWRENCE. This would stop all oncoming traffic on Stemmons Freeway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All the way to the Trade Mart?

Captain LAWRENCE. No, sir--this would stop all traffic that would be northbound on Stemmons, on--all northbound traffic on Stemmons Expressway, in the five lanes of traffic, so when the motorcade came onto the freeway, that no cars would be able to pass it, that the motorcycle officers would stop the traffic, and then the motorcycle officers after all the motorcade was headed for the Trade Mart, that then these motorcycle officers would slowly move up, but they would keep all the traffic behind--all the northbound traffic.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, the southbound traffic would be permitted to run in the southbound lanes?

Captain LAWRENCE. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did that conversation take place?

Captain LAWRENCE. That conversation took place about the 20th of November--2 days before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you receive another set of instructions or orders after that?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; on the evening of November 21, this was the first time that I had attended any security meeting at all in regards to this motorcade. At approximately 5 p.m. I was told to report to the conference room on the third floor, and when I arrived at the conference room the deputy chiefs were in there, there were members of the Secret Service--Mr. Sorrels, Captain Gannaway, Captain Souter of radio patrol, and Capt. Glen King, deputy chiefs, assistant chiefs, and Chief Curry, and one gentleman, who I assume was in charge of the security for the Secret Service. This was the first time I had attended any conferences in regard to the security of this escort, and I listened in on most of the discussion and I heard one of the Secret Service men say that President Kennedy did not desire any motorcycle officer directly on each side of him, between him and the crowd, but he would want the officers to the rear. This conversation I overheard as Chief Batchelor was using a blackboard showing how he planned to handle this--how plans had been made to cover the escort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anything said in that meeting about any special precautions that should be taken in connection with protecting the President?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; there was some discussion that centered more around the security down at the Trade Mart than any other place and Captain Gannaway was in charge of the security in that area, and then chief Stevenson, I believe, was there, and they mentioned that they would have detectives stationed along the route--along the motorcade route, especially in the downtown area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were they to be looking for?

Captain LAWRENCE. They were taking care of security, all right, but they did not go into any discussion in my presence. I assume that this had all been, discussed earlier, in fact, when I was called up there, these people were already meeting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever receive any instructions as to what the men were to do whom you stationed at the various intersections and elsewhere along the route?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; I discussed this with Chief Lunday two or three times and Chief Batchelor two or three times before this meeting ever took place and we discussed the fact that maybe some demonstrators with placards might show up and that the officers stationed along the route should be instructed to be on the alert for any persons that might throw anything or make any movement that might endanger the President at all, and if there were any incident of that nature, that the person would be arrested immediately.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any discussion between you and your superior officers about watching the buildings and windows in the buildings or the tops of the buildings?

Captain LAWRENCE. No, no instructions were given to me about my men watching the buildings--no, so, mine were more crowd control instructions--to watch the crowds, to keep them back, and to block off the traffic and to block off the streets on the approach of the motorcade and not to let them by--and to keep the crowds back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other men who were going to have other responsibilities?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes, it was my understanding that the other responsibilities in regard to security were to be handled by the special service bureau and the members of the criminal investigation division.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they going to be stationed along the routes?

Captain LAWRENCE. It was my understanding that they would be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever informed as to how many men would be in each particular location?

Captain LAWRENCE. I was not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With specific reference to Dealey Plaza and the area of Elm and Houston and the School Book Depository, did you have any idea of how many Secret Service or detective bureau people or CID people would be in that area?

Captain LAWRENCE. I did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever receive any advice or instructions from any member of the Secret Service about watching buildings or performing other functions other than the normal crowd controls which you have just mentioned?

Captain LAWRENCE. I did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you met with the Secret Service, what do you recall that the Secret Service did discuss?

Captain LAWRENCE. I sat in on the discussion and I did not participate in any at all, and from what I heard there would be sufficient personnel inside the Trade Mart--they were discussing this, and these detectives' assignments were not the ones that I was at that time primarily instructed in, so--I know that they had made some elaborate precautions, which no one discussed with me, but I don't remember all of the conversation that went on regarding that. I was particularly interested in traffic assignments and these were the ones that I was listening for.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever any discussion that you heard about taking precautions designed to prevent some sort of assault on the President that would be more severe than simply placards, picketing, and people throwing rotten eggs and vegetables, and things like that?

Captain LAWRENCE. Not to my knowledge, other than the fact that the Secret Service man in there--when it was mentioned about these motorcycle officers alongside the President's car, he said, "No, these officers should be back and if any people started a rush toward the car, if there was any movement at all where the President was endangered in any way, these officers would be in a position to gun their motors and get between them and the Presidential car," and he mentioned, of course, the security and safety of the President and those words were mentioned.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But was that concept of the security and the safety of the President spelled out in any certain details?

Captain LAWRENCE. Not to my knowledge. Now, you see, I'm not familiar with some of the things that were discussed with the other bureau commanders. Now, I didn't know until that time who was going to be in charge at the Trade Mart.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time is that that you have reference to?

Captain LAWRENCE. Sometime between 5 and 6 p.m. on November 21. I knew at that time that Captain Souter would be in charge, and when I was so advised, after this meeting I asked Souter if I could meet him down at the Trade Mart, and discuss how the motorcade would come into the Trade Mart, and they had discussed also about keeping an area open down there and it had also been discussed with me--I might add one thing that I had forgotten to say before--that there would be two officers remain with the Presidential car while he was in the Trade Mart. This was told to me by Assistant Chief Batchelor--to the best of my knowledge.

After this conference, I asked Captain Souter if I could meet him down at the Trade Mart and he said he would be down there and then I called Sgt. S. Q. Bellah [spelling] B-e-l-l-a-h. I called him on the phone at home and asked him if he could meet me down there because he was going to be the leading solo motorcycle sergeant. He met me at the Trade Mart with Stavis Ellis, another solo motorcycle sergeant, who was going to be leading the Presidential motorcade and I met with both of them down there on the evening of the 21st, so that I would know how they would come in the area and how they were to be escorted around in the area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it from what you said, that your principal concern then was keeping the motorcade moving smoothly?

Captain LAWRENCE. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was no special attention brought on your part to the question of actually protecting the President other than from some impediment to the actual movement of the automobile.

Captain LAWRENCE. Mainly--my understanding was mainly that my assignment was for crowd control and, of course, security would be involved in it, as far as anyone making any movements in the crowd.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you prepare a list of the assignments that you gave in stationing your men along the route?

Captain LAWRENCE. I did and I might add another thing that I have overlooked here, that Chief Batchelor had also instructed me to have one man on a three-wheel motorcycle--to station this one man over the Stemmons overpass at Industrial, to make sure that no car stopped and no people stopped there who would be in a position to throw anything down when the motorcade came off of Stemmons Freeway to make its turn onto Industrial, and there would be a three-wheeler up there and he had specifically instructed me on that, which to me was security as well too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you given any general instructions to go out and look along the route for special security problems that might arise along the route?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; I was not, but I did do this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in that regard?

Captain LAWRENCE. This is getting ahead, but after the detail was put out in the detail room and I had talked to the motorcycle officers and the motorcade officers and had given them their instructions, I then went out to Love Field with Maj. George Tropolis of the police reserves who is in charge of the police reserves and awaited the arrival of the President and to see that all the motorcycle officers were at the proper location, I had already given a copy of the detail to each one of the sergeants and their instructions and when we were out there at the airport, the weather cleared up and the officers put their raincoats, of course, in the motorcycle saddlebags and when the Presidential plane arrived and President Kennedy got off of the plane, I saw that there was going to be a brief ceremony there, and I knew that Chief Lumpkin was going to--I had been told was going to be ahead of this motorcade--I got in my car and tried to be a few blocks ahead of him to make sure that everybody was on their assignments, and, of course, the crowd, the huge crowd en route surprised me, especially in the residential area, that all the people had turned out to see the President. I didn't expect a crowd this big, and, of course, we had officers stationed at many intersections along the route, but not at every intersection until we got to the downtown area. Not every intersection was covered, but as I went along the route, this didn't look like it was necessary because the crowds already had blocked the streets, and no motor vehicle could have crossed some of these streets. As I came up to many of these intersections--I slowed my car down and I was in uniform, but I was driving a plain car which I drive, and I told the officers to keep the traffic in back of me moving and not let any vehicles cross because I could hear Chief Curry on channel 2 giving the location of the motorcade from time to time, and I knew a few blocks ahead of him would be Chief Lumpkin, and I knew that I would have to stay considerably ahead of him. Although I was not given this assignment--I proceeded on this route, and I followed it on down to the Trade Mart.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's go back a little bit and let me ask you--when did you first give instructions to the men who were actually stationed along the route as to what they should do?

Captain LAWRENCE. I gave them those instructions on the morning of November 22 and I had with me at the time--I had the detail with me and some notes that I had written. I first told the men the approximate time of the arrival of the President's plane at Love Field. Then, I went over the route that the motorcade would take to the Trade Mart and then the approximate time they were scheduled to be at the Trade Mart and then to leave for Love Field.

I stated that there would be some assignments which we would call assignment No. 1, assignment No. 2 and assignment No. 3. Some officers would only have one assignment and some would have two and some would have three, and that these assignments would be given to them by Lieutenant Southard, that there would be supervisors stationed along the route, cruising the route, and would be able to assist them. I then covered the supervisory assignments, telling them where these sergeants would be stationed along the route, and if anything came up they were to contact them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The men you assigned, from the instructions that you gave them, what would you expect that these men would do besides simply keep people from running out into the motorcade of cars?

Captain LAWRENCE. They are crowd control--for the motorcade to move and I also gave the men instructions that it would be no violation--for persons to carry placards, that we expected very little of this, but that they were to be alert to any unusual movements in the crowd so that no one threw anything at the President, that there would be no repetition of the Ambassador Stevenson incident, that President Kennedy was the President of the United States and entitled to the courtesy and protection of this office, and it was their duty to see that this was done, and if there were any violations of the law of any type, that they would arrest individuals immediately, and these were the specific instructions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if a man, captain, one of your men was placed at a station--was actually standing out there and acting pursuant to these orders, first of all, let me ask you what direction would he be looking; would he be looking toward the street or would he be turned around and facing the crowd?

Captain LAWRENCE. He would either be facing the crowd or facing the street, depending on the necessity at that time. He was given no specific instructions except that he was not told specifically that he would face the crowd on the traffic assignments, but he was told that he was to watch the crowd, so I wouldn't say that the man--that all of the men on the route were specifically instructed to face the crowd. I gave them no such instructions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you drove down the route preceding the motorcade, did you observe just exactly what these men were doing?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; most of the men were watching the oncoming traffic and keeping it moving. They were keeping this oncoming traffic moving. Some of the men were trying to push the crowd back, especially in the downtown area. There were many of them facing the crowds there and trying to push the crowds back, and this was, I imagine, about a mile ahead of the motorcade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As a practical matter--stationing as you did two men at each intersection generally--could two men have effectively prevented anyone who was bent upon attacking the President, could they have effectively prevented him from rushing out and doing something?