Chapter V: Part 5

Was this also something that you took out?

Mr. HILL. This would have been another of the shells, and the gun.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you four more bullets which have been marked as, I believe they are Commission Exhibit 518, but again I will withhold that identification.

I see the markings on this--let me see if I can see some "Q" numbers.

I see one Q-79. Do you see that, sergeant?

Mr. HILL. Now that I know where to look, I can find it. It is going to be Q-79.

It has the initials CK. That is distinguishable on it. It has two X's near the identification number that are legible.

And it has other markings that is R something or "R-" that is apparently on some of the others.

Mr. BELIN. Do you see your name on that?

Mr. HILL. My name is also on this, on the metal jacket portion of the shell.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of bullet is that?

Mr. HILL. This is another Western .38 special with a copper-colored coating on the lead inside the bullet.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-78.

Mr. HILL. This is a .38 caliber Western shell with the identification mark Q-78, with the other markings of JH and CK on it, and also on the shell casing near the rear of the bullet is the name H-i-l-l, with which I marked it.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-80.

Mr. HILL. Okay. This is an R.-P. .38 shell with the identification number Q-80.

The initials CK and JH near the "Q" number on the jacket of this one. Also is the name H-i-l-l scratched into the metal, which I placed on it. And this one also is a plain lead shell.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-81, do you see Q-81, on there?

Mr. HILL. This is an R and P shell with the identification number Q-81, with the initials CK and JH scratched near the "Q" number.

On the side of this shell also is the word H-i-l-l, which was placed on this shell by me.

This is a .38 lead slug.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not all of these slugs were removed from this gun which has been marked as Exhibit 143?

What is the fact as to whether or not all of those six were removed?

Mr. HILL. All six of the slugs that were identified immediately previous to this point were removed from the gun, identified as Commission Exhibit 143, by me.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not from the time this gun was handed to you until the time you removed these six bullets, this gun was in your possession?

Mr. HILL. The gun remained in my possession until it, from the time it was given to me until the gun was marked and all the shells were marked. They remained in my personal possession. After they were marked, they were released by me to Detective T. L. Baker of the homicide bureau. He came to the personnel office and requested that they be given to him, and I marked them and turned them over to him at this point.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, I want to return to the car, Sergeant Hill.

You stated that this gun was handed to you by----

Mr. HILL. Detective Bob Carroll.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Bob Carroll when he got in?

Mr. HILL. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

After he handed you--handed the gun to you, will you tell us what happened inside the car, or whether anyone made any remarks? And if you can, what happened in the car?

Mr. HILL. We mostly got the car in motion, traveled to the first corner where we could make a right turn, made a right turn, traveled one block, made another right turn, continued down this street, and at this point we would have been going east until we reached Zangs Boulevard, and turned left onto Zangs.

Within, I would say seconds--this is just a guess--after we got in the car, I picked up the radio and used the call number 550, car 2, which No. 550 is the number assigned to the personnel office, and because I knew the captain was out in the field and he would be using 550, if he got on the radio.

I used call 550, car 2, and made the statement, "We have suspect and weapon and are en route to the station."

Mr. BELIN. Now I want to hand you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which is the transcript of the police log, and I notice that at 1:52 p.m., there was a 550-2-531, with the notation, "Suspect on shooting of police officer is apprehended en route to the station." Was that----

Mr. HILL. Well, that would have generally been--that would have been----

Mr. BELIN. Would have been you?

Mr. HILL. That would have been me.

Mr. BELIN. It is marked "Westbrook-Batchelor." Is that because of the No. 2 on it?

Mr. HILL. Yes.

Possibly Batchelor's call is 2, and Westbrook's is 550, so apparently they showed Westbrook was talking to Chief Batchelor, which at this point----

Mr. BELIN. Someone else put this handwriting in. That is, "Westbrook-Batchelor," but is that the time that you called in?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I don't remember the exact words, but I did get on the radio as soon as we got to the car and it got moving, notifying that we were en route to the station with the suspect. That would have been possibly right.

Mr. BELIN. It goes on to say, "From the Texas Theatre."

And, "caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theatre after a fight."

Did you say that?

Mr. HILL. This would have been the dispatcher to me asking the question did we have him in the Texas Theatre. Was that where we arrested him?

Mr. BELIN. That is 531-550-2?

Mr. HILL. In other words, it is dispatcher to 550 car 2.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HILL. And he was finding out for sure if we had arrested him at the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Then it goes to 550.

Mr. HILL. Car 2 would have been my answer to the dispatcher.

Mr. BELIN. It says, "Caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theatre after a fight." And then 531-2-3.

Mr. HILL. That would have been the dispatcher talking to----

Mr. BELIN. Someone?

Mr. HILL. Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson.

Mr. BELIN. Two and three?

Mr. HILL. Then 531 again would have been the dispatcher advising 305, which is a homicide unit that the apprehension had been made.

And then the 550 car 2, to 531 would have been me telling him that we had 223, who was Walker--that is Walker's call number, and 492, which was Carroll, and Lyons' call number in the car with me.

And we later had to make arrangements for somebody to go back and pick up 223 car and take it back.

Mr. BELIN. That last call then was made at 1:53 p.m., in which you advised who was in the car?

Mr. HILL. With us en route to the station.

Mr. BELIN. And the first one that you made after you got to the car was at 1:52 p.m.?

Mr HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, also turning to Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, I notice that there is another call on car No. 550-2. Was that you at that time, or not, at 1:40 p.m.?

Would that have been someone else?

Mr. HILL. That probably is R. D. Stringer.

Mr. BELIN. That is not you, then, even though it has a number 550-2?

Mr. HILL. Yes; because Stringer quite probably would have been using the same call number, because it is more his than it was mine, really, but I didn't have an assigned call number, so I was using a number I didn't think anybody would be using, which is call 550-2, instead of the Westbrook to Batchelor as it indicates here.

Mr. BELIN. Now after, from the time you started in motion until the time you called in, do you remember anyone saying anything at all in the car?

Mr. HILL. The suspect was asked what his name was.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say?

Mr. HILL. He never did answer. He just sat there.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked where he lived?

Mr. HILL. That was the second question that was asked the suspect, and he didn't answer it, either.

About the time I got through with the radio transmission, I asked Paul Bentley, "Why don't you see if he has any identification."

Paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said, "Yes, he has a billfold," and took it out.

I never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name Lee Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this identification, I believe, was on the library card.

And he also made the statement that there was some more identification in this other name which I don't remember, but it was the same name that later came in the paper that he bought the gun under.

Mr. BELIN. Would the name Hidell mean anything? Alek Hidell?

Mr. HILL. That would be similar. I couldn't say specifically that is what it was, because this was a conversation and I never did see it written down, but that sounds like the name that I heard.

Mr. BELIN. Was this the first time you learned of the name?

Mr. HILL. Yes; it was.

Mr. BELIN. All right; when did you learn of his address?

Mr. HILL. There were two different addresses on the identification.

One of them was in Oak Cliff. The other one was in Irving. But as near as I can recall of the conversation in the car, this was strictly conversation, because I didn't read any of the stuff. It didn't have an address on Beckley, that I recall hearing.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Now from the time you got in the car to the time you got to the station, I believe you said that at least the second question asked was where do you live, and the man didn't answer?

Mr. HILL. The man didn't answer.

Mr. BELIN. Was he ever asked again where he lived, up to the time you got to the station?

Mr. HILL. No; I don't believe so, because when Bentley got the identification out, we had two different addresses. We had two different names, and the comment was made, "I guess we are going to have to wait until we get to the station to find out who he actually is."

After about the time Bentley reached in his pocket and got his billfold, the suspect made the statement, "I don't know why you are treating me like this. The only thing I have done is carry a pistol in a movie."

Then there was a remark made something to the effect, "Yes, sir; you have done a lot more. You have killed a policeman."

And then the suspect made a remark similar to "Well, you fry for that," or something to that effect.

Mr. BELIN. Something to what effect?

Mr. HILL. Well, now, he either made the statement, "You only fry for that," or "You can fry for that," or a similar statement. Now the exact words of it, I don't recall.

Mr. BELIN. All right; then what was said?

Mr. HILL. Some more questions were asked as to where he had been prior to going to the movie, which he did not answer. Some more questions were asked as to what was his true name, and in neither case did he ever answer them. He did make a comment, if I recall, about the handcuffs, about, "I don't see why you handcuffed me." And here again he repeated the statement, "The only crime I have committed was carrying a pistol in a movie."

We got the suspect to the city hall as rapidly as possible without using the siren and red light, but we took advantage of every open spot we had to make a little speed, and we explained to him this--I did, before we got into the basement, that there would probably be some reporters and photographers and cameramen waiting in the basement when we got to the station, and that if he so desired, we would hold him in a way that he could hide his face if he wanted to, and also told him he did not have to speak to the press if he didn't want to.

He didn't comment on this at this point, but as we pulled into the basement from the Main Street side, we were wanting to get out and get organized enough that we would set up our wedge again to get him in the station through the basement, and so we pulled over to what would have been the southeast side of the basement, got out of the car, and formed a wedge in the same position that we left the theatre, and told the suspect again he could hide his face if he wanted to.

And he said, "Why should I hide my face. I haven't done anything to be ashamed of."

And with that we started walking him up the aisle of the basement and walked him through the door into the basement of the city hall proper, put him on the elevator, stayed on the elevator with him, put him back behind the wall, and sort of formed a wall around him.

Some of the press pushed into the elevator with us.

Got him out on the third floor, walked him into the homicide and robbery office, placed him in the first interrogation room inside the homicide and robbery office, and left Officer Walker there with him.

At this point I stood in the door of the, or at the door of the room he was in.

Reporters wanted to see the pistol. I held it up to them but never relinquished control of it. I asked Baker at this time, who was Detective T. L. Baker, if he wanted the pistol, and he said, "No; hold on to it until later."

I explained to him that this was the suspect on Tippit and did he want us to make up the arrest sheet, or would they make them up.

We were trying to get together to decide who was going to make the offense report and get all the little technicalities out of the way when a detective named Richard Stovall and another one, G. F. Rose, came up, and the four of us were standing when Captain Fritz walked in.

He walked up to Rose and Stovall and made the statement to them, "Go get a search warrant and go out to some address on Fifth Street," and I don't recall the actual street number, in Irving, and "pick up a man named Lee Oswald."

And I asked the captain why he wanted him, and he said, "Well, he was employed down at the Book Depository and he had not been present for a roll call of the employees."

And we said, "Captain, we will save you a trip," or words to that effect, "Because there he sits."

And with that, we relinquished our prisoner to the homicide and robbery bureau, to Captain Fritz.

Walker, Bentley, Lyons, Carroll, and I knew that the prisoner had received a laceration and bruises while effecting his arrest, and that an officer had been scratched while effecting the arrest, and that Bentley had sprained an ankle, and Lyons had sprained an ankle while effecting the arrest--they were fixing to have to make a whole bushel basket of reports--we adjourned to the personnel office, which was further down the hall from homicide and I sat down and started to try to organize the first report on the arrest.

I originally had the heading on it, "Injuries sustained by suspect while effecting his arrest in connection with the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit," and a few minutes later Captain Westbrook came in the office and said that our suspect had admitted being a Communist. This is strictly hearsay. I did not hear it myself.

He himself also said a few minutes later he had previously been in the Marine Corps, had a dishonorable discharge, had been to Russia, and had had some trouble with the police in New Orleans for passing out pro-Castro literature.

This still is all hearsay because I didn't actually hear it firsthand myself. And at about this point Captain Westbrook suggested that I change the heading of my report to include arrest of the suspect in the assassination of the President and in the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit, which I did.

I originally wrote the report for Bob Carroll's signature and for my signature, and left it with the captain to be typed while we moved over in another office to get a cup of coffee and sort of calm down and recap the events.

By then McDonald was there, and we had added some information that he could give us such as the information about "This is it." Which the suspect allegedly said as he came into contact with him.

The exact location of the officers and who was there on the original arrest and everything, and we were waiting around for the secretary to finish the report.

When we got it back ready to sign, Carroll and I were sitting there, and it had Captain Westbrook's name for signature, and added a paragraph about he and the FBI agent being there, and not seeing that it made any difference, I went ahead and signed the report.

Actually, they were there, but I didn't make any corrections.

And as far as the report, didn't allege what they did, but had added a paragraph to our report to include the fact that he was there, and also that the FBI agent was there.

Now as to why this was done, your guess is as good as mine.

Mr. BELIN. Were they there at the time?

Mr. HILL. They were there. They got there inside where we were about the time he was being handcuffed.

Mr. BELIN. All right, let me go back a minute now.

You left the suspect in the custody of homicide?

Mr. HILL. Right.

Mr. BELIN. In what office was he left?

Mr. HILL. He was still in the interrogation room and still in the homicide and robbery bureau office.

Mr. BELIN. Who was in there with him when you left?

Mr. HILL. When I left the office, Captain Fritz, who was the commander of the bureau was there, and I had assumed, being that he was the officer in charge, the highest ranking man there, and it was his bureau and his office, theoretically he was in possession of the prisoner.

However, now as to specifically who went in and took him out of the interrogation room and took him to the captain's office, I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Was Captain Fritz in the interrogation office?

Mr. HILL. Captain Fritz was in the hall. There was a little small hallway to the door here, and there is a hallway just big enough to pass through. The suspect was in the interrogation room and Captain Fritz immediately in front of him.

Mr. BELIN. Was anyone else in the interrogation room when you left?

Mr. HILL. No; Walker was, and when we turned him over to homicide, Walker came out and Fritz and his people had control of the prisoner.

Mr. BELIN. So when you and Walker left, the nearest office to him was Fritz'?

Mr. HILL. As far as I know; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. At any time up to the time you left, did you ever get any address on the suspect as to where he lived other than the statement of Captain Fritz that he had this address on Fifth Street somewhere in Irving?

Mr. HILL. Paul Bentley called off two addresses. One, as I recall, in Irving, and another one in Oak Cliff, when he was reading from information inside the suspect's billfold. But neither of these addresses was an address on 10th or on Beckley.

As to exactly what they were, I don't recall, as I didn't see the identification.

Mr. BELIN. Would one of them have been an address on Neely Street?

Mr. HILL. It very possibly could be. In fact I believe it was.

Mr. BELIN. To the best of your knowledge, did anyone in the car in which you were riding down to the police station ever mention any Beckley Street address for the suspect?

Mr. HILL. No.

Mr. BELIN. To the best of your knowledge, when the suspect was brought into the police station, up to the time you left him with Captain Fritz there, had anyone mentioned a Beckley Street address?

Mr. HILL. No.

Mr. BELIN. What else did the suspect say, if anything?

Mr. HILL. Other than the statement he made about brutality in the theatre, and other than the statements he made in the car about "Why are you treating me this way? The only thing I have done is carry a gun," and "Why are you handcuffing me, the only thing I have done is carry a gun," and when the comment was made about something of killing an officer, and he said something to the extent that you can only fry for that, and the man showed absolutely no emotion.

He gave the appearance of being arrogant, and yet he didn't make boastful statements. He was silent almost the entire time he was in the car except for the flareup of the brutality in the theatre, and the two statements or the three statements that he made in the car. He was silent almost the entire time until we got to the basement when he made the statement that he didn't know why he should hide his face, he didn't have anything to be ashamed of.

Mr. BELIN. When the comment was made about frying, did any police officer in the car say in substance, "Maybe you will find out," or something like that?

Do you remember anything like that being said?

Mr. HILL. There was probably a sarcastic remark to that made, but as to the exact words of it, "You will find out," or "You will get a chance to find out," but I am sure there was an answer to his question, and I don't recall who said it.

But as near as I can remember, it came from the back seat.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any reply by the suspect along the lines of "Well, I understand it only takes a minute," or something like that?

Did you hear him say anything like that?

Mr. HILL. I don't recall that statement. It could have been made, because there were about half a dozen conversations actually going on in the car.

At one point after I opened the pistol, and I did open it in the car, and found that one of the slugs or one of the shells did have an indention to the primer that could have been caused by the hammer, we made a comment that he tried or he did pull the trigger, and this was in line with what Hutson had asked me, in the theatre, had I heard the gun click.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that happened in the car?

Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall of specific detail.

There was quite a bit of excitement.

Everybody had been in the little scuffle and were huffing and puffing, and especially me, as fat as I am, but there weren't any, I don't recall any more direct statements. There was nothing ever said in the car that I can recall that would have put it at this time. We didn't have enough to be sure that maybe the two were tied together.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about the demeanor of the witness at all?

Mr. HILL. Other than as I said, he gave the appearance of arrogance, but yet he did not talk boastfully. In fact, he talked very little. This was one of the things that stuck out most about him in my mind, was how quiet he did keep.

His commenting or relating the statement that the only crime he had committed was carrying a gun in the theatre, and the refusal to answer questions as to what his name was and where he lived, this is not unusual immediately after an arrest, because when a man is arrested, he is keyed up too, and probably thinks that the best thing that they can do is keep their mouth shut, and he had previously in the theatre said he wanted his attorney.

Mr. BELIN. He had said this in the theatre?

Mr. HILL. Yes; when we arrested him, he wanted his lawyer. He knew his rights.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever say he requested an attorney on the way down to the police station?

Mr. HILL. I do not recall.

I was going to say that by making the statement earlier, it is possible, it is a possibility that he decided the best thing to do was keep his mouth shut; that is a supposition on my part, and I couldn't prove it as to the reason he didn't say any more on the way to the police station.

Mr. BELIN. Where did the police get ahold of his address on Beckley?

Mr. HILL. I don't know. This apparently came from homicide later, and once we turned him over to homicide, with the exception of seeing him walking down the hall again in front of several TV people later in the day, I had nothing else to do with the man. I never saw him again.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Hill, from the time he was handcuffed until the time you turned him over to Captain Fritz, except for the moments that he was in the room with Officer Walker in the interrogation room, were you with the suspect at all times?

Mr. HILL. Yes; and I was also with him when I was standing in the doorway of the room when he was there, with Walker. The door was never closed.

Mr. BELIN. The door was never closed?

Mr. HILL. No.

Mr. BELIN. While you were standing in the doorway with Walker, did the man, suspect, say anything at all, or not?

Mr. HILL. Not that I recall, sir. At this time when I was in the doorway, I was talking to Baker and had my attention more on him and what he was saying, because at that point we were trying to decide if he wanted the gun, if we were going to make the offense, or homicide, or the officers that stayed out at the scene to wait for the crime lab. We were talking trying to get the paperwork straight.

Mr. BELIN. How far was the suspect from you at this time?

Mr. HILL. Sitting across the table, about as wide as this, and maybe 2 more feet to the door.

Mr. BELIN. About how far would that be?

Mr. HILL. About 6 feet.

Mr. BELIN. How close was the other officer to you?

Mr. HILL. The other officer was at the end of the table here. He was probably 4 feet from me and 4 feet from the suspect.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the other officer say anything to the suspect?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the suspect say anything at all?

Mr. HILL. I didn't hear the suspect say anything at all. Other than the statement he made in the basement, I didn't hear him utter another word.

Mr. BELIN. If the suspect had told anyone his address from the time he was apprehended until the time he was turned over to Captain Fritz, would you have been in a position to hear that statement made?

Mr. HILL. With my attention diverted talking to Baker, it is possible that he could have given his address to Walker without me hearing it, but I can't say for sure.

Mr. BELIN. Apart from what he may have said to Walker, if there was anything else that he could have said except for during that period, would you have heard it if he said anything about living on North Beckley?

Mr. HILL. I am sure until the time that the suspect was turned over to Fritz, other than maybe a couple of words exchanged between Walker and the suspect while I was standing in the door talking to Baker, I am sure I would have heard it, and I never did hear the address North Beckley mentioned until much later in the day, and this was strictly hearsay, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you hear any Beckley Street address mentioned?

Mr. HILL. I didn't hear anything on Beckley mentioned until probably 7 or 8 o'clock that night.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to Walker after he left the interrogation room?

Mr. HILL. Talked to Walker after he left the interrogation room. He came into the personnel office with us, and we sat down and made sure that--we just talked over our story and made sure that we had all the details as to who was where in the arrest, what door the man came in into the theatre, where they were when the original contact was made, how Bentley hurt his foot, how Lyons hurt his foot, and all this, and decided, well, rather than have to get everybody back together and round them up and all six or seven people sign the one report, it was decided that Carroll and I would be the only two that signed it, and that Bentley would go on to the hospital and get his foot fixed, and Lyons would go to the hospital and get his foot fixed, and after McDonald finally got down there to the station and we sent him over to the city hall to get the scratch on his face treated, and then the rest of the time, with the exception of going across the hall for a cup of coffee, probably I didn't get out of the office to almost 5 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Did Walker ever mention to you any conversation he had with Oswald in the interrogation room?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you and he discuss all the conversations that were had with the prisoner?

Mr. HILL. With the exception of getting some information from McDonald as to what Oswald actually said at the time of his contact with him in the theatre, the statement to the effect, "This is it," I figured that I had been in on the conversation when he was discussing the brutality and the statements he made in the car, and the statement he made in the basement when we were telling him he could duck his head if he wanted to, enough that I had all the information that I needed for the report, so I never did discuss any of the conversation that could possibly have taken place between Walker and the suspect in the interrogation room.

Mr. BELIN. Over what period of time span would that have been that he was in the interrogation room and you were standing in the doorway there?

Mr. HILL. Probably 3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were going down to the station in the car, I believe the question was asked of the suspect to give his name and his address and he refused, is that correct?

Mr. HILL. He didn't answer either question. He didn't say, "I am not going to tell you anything." He just didn't answer, that is all.

Mr. BELIN. But at least Officer Walker never told you that he finally answered that question, did he?

Mr. HILL. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you had one report that you entitled "The arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald," which pertained to the Texas Theatre. Did you have any other report that you made at all, or not?

Mr. HILL. I had to make one later about a telephone call that I made from San Antonio to Dallas when we got the flash down there on Sunday morning that Oswald had been shot. I was attending a meeting down there.

Mr. BELIN. Well, apart from that, anything?

Mr. HILL. Also, I made a statement to the FBI concerning the fact that I had known Jack Ruby prior to this thing. But as far an another report, other than the original report that afternoon on the arrest of the suspect, I don't recall writing any other report after that one report that was signed by Carroll and I and Captain Westbrook is the only one I wrote on the actual arrest.

Mr. BELIN. I see one 2-page report that is signed by you.

Mr. HILL. Can I look at it?

Mr. BELIN. You bet you can.

[Handing to witness.]

Mr. HILL. This was later when they wanted a report from each individual officer. Yes, sir; I did write this.

Mr. BELIN. You are referring to a report dated what?

Mr. HILL. This would have been dated November 22, sir, and it is signed by Captain Westbrook and Bob Carroll and myself. I do not have it with me, but in case it is not in there, I have a carbon copy of it with all three signatures on it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with either the assassination investigation or the Tippit investigation on Saturday, November 23?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; I was off that day.

And then on Sunday the 24th, I had flown out of Dallas that morning on a Braniff flight to San Antonio with a sergeant from Dallas and captain from Garland and captain from Denison to attend a state board meeting of the Texas Municipal Police Association in San Antonio at the International Building, and we took a coffee break somewhere around 11:30 or 12, I don't know the exact time.

Mr. BELIN. When was the last time you saw Jack Ruby prior to the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. HILL. It was probably 6 to 8 weeks, and that was a contact that I was walking by a garage one night about the time he came down to get his car, and we talked for a minute and that is all.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what you said or what he said at all, or not?

Mr. HILL. It just was a greeting. We hadn't seen each other in quite a while. In the interim, I had been on--normally when I was on a rotating schedule of working evenings and deep nights, the Carousel Club was located in the district that I worked quite often, and I would stop in there once in a while, and I had been on a special assignment for about 2 months working straight days, in town and out of town, and I hadn't been by or hadn't seen him, and this particular night we ran into each other, and he wanted to know what I was doing, and I told him I was working in personnel.

And he said, I haven't been much around much lately, and I said, "I am staying home."

Mr. BELIN. When was the last time you saw him prior to that meeting?

Mr. HILL. Probably the last time, I was in his place on duty, maybe 3 or 4 weeks before this.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would describe the situation in the police department on the third floor with regard to reporters or what have you during the period of time that you brought Oswald in and during the rest of the time you might have been there on the afternoon of November 22?

What did you find when you got there?

Mr. HILL. There wasn't anybody except the ones that were down in the basement waiting for us to bring him in, and they were standing in the doorway, that if you turned to the right, you go in the jail office.

If you go straight, you go into the basement of the building.

Some of them rode up on the elevator with us. When we started off the elevator, they got ahead of us and shot us walking down the hall and took pictures of us going to homicide.

We carried him into the interrogation room and they followed us into the homicide office.

At this time probably there were six or seven people, Jim Underwood from KRLD was one of them, and I don't recall any more specifically by name.

But as time went by in the afternoon, more and more people came in until I would say about 6:45 or 7 o'clock that night, the night of the 22d, when I left, there were some 70- or 80-odd reporters and floodlights and two or three live cameras and several more cameras on tripods, and out-of-town reporters, and local reporters, and everything else, that officers were on duty and in uniform to keep the halls open as much as possible.

And if you wanted to go from the elevator entrance on back toward homicide or to any of the other detective offices, you had to drag your way through TV cables and bodies of people, seesawing your course to get through there.

Mr. BELIN. Now you have stated when we first started this deposition that you had some background in either newspaper or radio or television?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

I worked at the Herald both as a police reporter, as a newswriter, and a radio-TV editor, and left there and went with WBAP as a member of their Dallas Bureau, covering the, working out of an office in the police station here in Dallas, and covering police news and all other types of news also.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any request ever made to the press people to clear the hall or clear the floor at all?

Mr. HILL. Not to my personal knowledge; no, sir. It could have been made when I wasn't there, or it could have been made before I got there, or after I left or while I was in an office or something, but I don't know that a direct order was ever given to get everybody out.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us what general discussion there was among the officers, the line officers, without quoting any names that might embarrass anyone, about all of these people and paraphernalia there?

Mr. HILL. As to the situation, we commented that it was a bad thing that we didn't have a space big enough to put everybody and make press releases to them like they did in some of the eastern cities.

I think somebody brought up the fact that in New York you wouldn't do what was done here because everybody had to go to one place and when they got ready to tell you something, they would come in and make a formal announcement, and if they wanted to throw it open for questions they did, and if they didn't they would walk out.

There was commenting on the smallness of the space that we had to work in and the inconvenience there, and the building, had it been Brooklyn, it wouldn't have created as much congestion and all.

But there was a feeling of congeniality between the police and the press, and I observed some of the officers that did have to go ask somebody to move or get out of the way, or not block a door, or so, or not block this, and the press was very nice about cooperating and doing at that time what they were asked to do.

What happened Saturday and Sunday, I don't know. But it was rather crowded, I will make that statement.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Hill, I have handed you these six bullets that you previously identified with your signature on it here, and asked you to examine and try to find which one, if any, had a scratch that you talked about, and you picked out what might properly be the one.

What is the fact as to whether or not this depression was a deep one or was one that you found difficult to see?

Mr. HILL. It was one that I found difficult to see at the time.

However, the bullets had not been handled as much at that time, and they were less shiny, and evidence would have been a little better on a dull shell where a new marking had been made on it rather than one that had been handled a few times.

Mr. BELIN. The two that you picked out are marked, I believe, "Q-80" and the other one is "Q-177," is that it?

Mr. HILL. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. I think you said as between the two of them, you saw----

Mr. HILL. Q-80 would be the one.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Sergeant Hill, we met one time earlier here, I think, a couple of days ago, is that correct?

Mr. HILL. I believe it was Friday afternoon, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Friday afternoon?

Mr. HILL. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Originally we had your deposition set for Friday afternoon, is that correct?

Mr. HILL. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You came and I had an airplane flight, an 8 o'clock flight, that was canceled?

Mr. HILL. That left.

Mr. BELIN. I left at 5:30--and now it is past 7 o'clock--and I told you I didn't think we had a chance to get your deposition.

At that time I believe I asked you just to state what general areas of work you had worked in so we could try and see whether or not we had time to take your deposition in half an hour, and I believe you described your work at the Texas School Book Depository in general terms, and in general terms your being at the Texas Theatre, but did we go into any details at that time?

Mr. HILL. The only specifics we discussed were this.

You were asking Officer Hicks if either one recalled seeing a sack, supposedly one that had been made by the suspect, in which he could have possibly carried the weapon into the Depository, and I at that time told you about the small sack that appeared to be a lunchsack, and that that was the only sack that I saw, and that I left the Book Depository prior to the finding of the gun.

Or the section, if it was found up there on the sixth floor, if it was there, I didn't see it.

Then you asked me some statement, if I had heard it in the car, but I don't recall what statement it was.

But I told you at that time there was remarks made, but I didn't recall hearing that. I don't remember what it was.

Perhaps your memory on that is better than mine.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else in specific that we discussed at that time?

Mr. HILL. Not that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. Otherwise, that is our only conversation that we had?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; it was just very general and very limited due to the stress of time.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, did you search the suspect that you brought in from the Texas Theatre?

Mr. HILL. As to any other possible weapon?

Mr. BELIN. Yes; or ammunition?

Mr. HILL. I did not search him, and being that he was handcuffed, and being that they were moving him out hurriedly, I don't recall anyone else searching him after he was placed under arrest.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant to this area of inquiry pertaining to the investigation of the assassination, or the investigation of the Tippit murder?

Anything else you can think of that you would like to comment on at this time?

Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Hill, we want to thank you very much for your splendid cooperation, and for the cooperation of the entire police department here, and you particularly.

You had to make two trips, because of the fact that the one airplane of mine was canceled.

Mr. HILL. They were both on duty, so I don't mind.

Mr. BELIN. You have an opportunity, if you like, to read the typewritten transcript of this deposition and sign it, or else you can waive the signing and have it go directly to Washington without your reading.

Do you have any preference?

Mr. HILL. Sir, if it would be all right, I would like to run by and sign it?

If you will just let me know when, I will be here.

Mr. BELIN. They will contact you and again we want to thank you very much.

Mr. HILL. It is my pleasure. Anytime I can help, let me know.

TESTIMONY OF J. M. POE

The testimony of J. M. Poe was taken at 10:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Would you stand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. POE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. State your name.

Mr. POE. J. M. Poe [spelling]. P-o-e.

Mr. BALL. And your address?

Mr. POE. 1716 Cascade Street.

Mr. BALL. And your occupation?

Mr. POE. Police officer, city of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. All right, what is your rank in the department?

Mr. POE. Patrolman.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the department?

Mr. POE. Nine years and one month.

Mr. BALL. And where were you born?

Mr. POE. Winnsboro, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. POE. Winnsboro, Stephensville, and Edgewood.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mr. POE. Graduated from high school.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. POE. Then went into the Navy.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mr. POE. Three years.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. POE. I was what we called a "snipe," diesel mechanic.

Mr. BALL. How long did you do that work?

Mr. POE. About 2 years.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. POE. I was in construction work. I was the carpenter when I got out of the Service.

Mr. BALL. You worked as a "snipe," in the Service, is that right?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then you got out of the Service and worked as a construction worker?

Mr. POE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And then what did you do?

Mr. POE. I joined the police force.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do on the police force?

Mr. POE. Patrol work.

Mr. BALL. Patrolman?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In a car?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In a radio car?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 22d of November 1963?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. What time of day?

Mr. POE. From 7 in the morning until 3 in the afternoon.

Mr. BALL. Were you alone?

Mr. POE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you?

Mr. POE. L. E. Jez.

Mr. BALL. [Spelling.] J-a-s-s.

Mr. POE. No; it is J-e-z.

Mr. BALL. What district do you patrol?

Mr. POE. I had two districts to patrol. District 105 and district 106.

Mr. BALL. Where are they located?

Mr. POE. In the western end of the downtown section.

Mr. BALL. You were a downtown patrolman?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear of the assassination of the President over the radio? The fact that the President had been shot?

Mr. POE. We heard the call come out on the radio. There was a signal 19, which would be a shooting of the President, at Elm and Houston Streets.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Were you told to go some place?

Mr. POE. We reported the scene; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. To where?

Mr. POE. To Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. When--what did you do there?

Mr. POE. We helped cover off the building and control the crowd.

Mr. BALL. Then you went where?

Mr. POE. From there to Oak Cliff, to the scene of the Tippit shooting.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go out there?

Mr. POE. I was standing close to the squad car using the squad car as part of the block to keep the crowd back and had run out of rope, and heard a citizen, I presume, get on the radio, and--because he didn't know radio procedure, called and said a police officer was shot out there. At first give the wrong address, and come back and changed it to another address, and I believe he left us in the 400 block of East Ninth, the last time, and we went out there.

Mr. BALL. You went there?

Mr. POE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what did you find when you got there?

Mr. POE. We found----

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mr. POE. Found the squad car parked toward the curb, and a pool of blood at the left-front wheel of the car. The ambulance had already picked him up and the officer had left the scene when we arrived. We had--I don't know how many people there were. Looked like 150 to 200 people around there, and Mrs. Markham, I talked to her first and we got a description of the man that shot Tippit.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what the description was?

Mr. POE. Sir?

Mr. BALL. Do you know what the description was?

Mr. POE. White male, about 25, about 5 feet 8, brown hair, medium, and I believe she said had on a white jacket at the time.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. POE. We gave the description to several of the officers at the scene. You couldn't get on the radio at the time, there was so much traffic on the radio, and the last--the direction he was seen leaving, and then I talked to several more witnesses around there.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever put that description on the radio?

Mr. POE. I believe we did. But I couldn't swear to it.

Mr. BALL. And what happened after that?

Mr. POE. I talked to a Spanish man, but I don't remember his name. Dominique, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Domingo Benavides?

Mr. POE. I believe that is correct; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?

Mr. POE. He told me, give me the same, or similar description of the man, and told me he was running out across this lawn. He was unloading his pistol as he ran, and he picked the shells up.

Mr. BALL. Domingo told you who was running across the lawn?

Mr. POE. A man, white man.

Mr. BALL. What was he doing?

Mr. POE. He was unloading his pistol as he run.

Mr. BALL. And what did he say?

Mr. POE. He said he picked the two hulls up.

Mr. BALL. Did he hand you the hulls?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you put any markings on the hulls?

Mr. POE. I couldn't swear to it; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the hulls?

Mr. POE. I turned the hulls into the crime lab, which was at the scene.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of the man with the crime lab or from the crime lab?

Mr. POE. I couldn't swear to it. I believe Pete Barnes, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any people there?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. POE. Talked to Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to the two Davis girls?

Mr. POE. I talked to one of them, but I can't recall talking to two Davis girls.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what a Detective Dhority there at the scene did?

Mr. POE. I remember Detective Leavelle at the scene.

Mr. BALL. Leavelle?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did the Davis girls give you anything? Either one of the Davis girls hand you anything?

Mr. POE. She give me the same general description of the suspect as Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BALL. What was that?

Mr. POE. White male, and in his early 20's, around 5'7" or 8", about 145 pounds, and I believe she said had on a white jacket.

Mr. BALL. There is a--off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. We have here a broadcast by Walker. Do you know Walker?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was Walker there at the scene?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir; he came by the scene after I got there.

Mr. BALL. What is his full name?

Mr. POE. I don't know. I want to say C. T., but I am not positive on that.