Chapter XXVIII: Part 28

Mr. BALL. What would you say is the size--was the size of the Rolling Reader?

Mr. SHELLEY. It's about 12 inches long--6 by 6.

Mr. BALL. Now, was there a place where things and those books were usually stacked on the sixth floor?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. SHELLEY. Along the west wall all the way across.

Mr. BALL. You had been doing work up there that day, had you?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; I mean the east wall; I'm sorry.

Mr. BALL. Had they ever been in the west wall?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; when we moved in that building we put them on the west wall.

Mr. BALL. On the west wall?

Mr. SHELLEY. On the west wall; I mean the east wall.

Mr. BALL. Then, the "Think and Do" books were on the east wall?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And piled how many cartons high?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, there were some of them as high as eight high.

Mr. BALL. Then, this carton of "Think and Do" books that was on the floor, near the window, under the two Rolling Readers, was stacked--would have been stacked along the east wall?

Mr. SHELLEY. No; that was a new title and we didn't have a place for it and it had been set up on the west wall and when we started laying the floor, we had to move all of the stock over there, including that particular type.

Mr. BALL. Then, when you moved the stock, where did you move these "Think and Do" book cartons?

Mr. SHELLEY. They are on the south side--along the south side of the building. We just had a big line of stock, you know; the first thing that was pulled out, we would roll it onto the southeast corner, and then the row went right on back toward the west wall.

Mr. BALL. Along the west wall?

Mr. SHELLEY. We started rolling it east and then it went back west and as you fill in an order, it goes back west, you see.

Mr. BALL. There was also a carton of books where they found some handprints and they cut a piece out of the top; do you remember that? Don't you?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize that carton?

Mr. SHELLEY. That was another carton of "Think and Do" books--sixth grade.

Mr. BALL. Where were those cartons usually stacked?

Mr. SHELLEY. They were stacked in the southeast corner on the east wall.

Mr. BALL. About where that was found, was it not?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, the "Think and Do" books for the first-grade level, that was underneath the two Rolling Readers; was that out of place?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How far away from the place where those books were usually stacked?

Mr. SHELLEY. Where they were previously stacked was over near the west wall.

Mr. BALL. But where you had rolled them to; how far was it?

Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, about 3 feet.

Mr. BALL. About 3 feet?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And the "Think and Do" books, sixth-grade level, where the piece had been cut out to examine for his palmprint, was it in its proper place?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, all that stock was stacked clear to the south wall on the east side and some cartons had been moved and stacked on top of some more. There was an empty spot there and this one particular carton was sitting on it there.

Mr. BALL. By itself?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; by itself. By the side where the rest of them were.

Mr. BALL. Now, Lee Oswald was a checker, wasn't he?

Mr. SHELLEY. An order filler.

Mr. BALL. An order filler?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And do you recall that when he came to work he used a clipboard to put his orders on; is that correct?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; all of the boys do.

Mr. BALL. All the boys use clipboards?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you know where Oswald got the clipboard he used?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, it was a piece of cardboard, actually, with a clip on it and it was homemade--he could have made it himself.

Mr. BALL. You don't know who made it?

Mr. SHELLEY. No; I'm not for sure.

Mr. BALL. Were you present when the clipboard was found on the sixth floor?

Mr. SHELLEY. It was Frankie Kaiser that found that and came down and told me and I told Mr. Pinkston with the FBI.

Mr. BALL. Did you go up and look at it?

Mr. SHELLEY. I went up with him and he got it.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a name on it?

Mr. SHELLEY. I think it had Frankie's name on it--Frankie Kaiser's name. He said he thought that might have been one he had made before--he was all times making them.

Mr. BALL. I believe that's all. Your other deposition is going to come down here and you can sign it at the same time you sign this one.

Mr. SHELLEY. OK; I was coming back up the next day and we were awful busy down there is the reason I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Anyway, it will come down for your signature and you can look it over and, if you have any corrections to make, correct them and initial them. That's all, and thank you.

Mr. SHELLEY. All right; thank you.

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD SHIELDS

The testimony of Edward Shields was taken at 4:25 p.m., on May 14, 1964, at the Texas School Book Depository Building, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SHIELDS. I do.

Mr. BALL. State your name.

Mr. SHIELDS. Edward Shields.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. SHIELDS. I live now at 1432 Stirling. I was living at 414 Cleaves Street.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. SHIELDS. I work in the shipping department, but some guy put it down that I worked as a shipping clerk. I do receiving and shipping with the shipping department.

Mr. BALL. Of what company?

Mr. SHIELDS. With the Texas School Book Co. at 1917 North Houston, at the warehouse.

Mr. BALL. That's how far from the building that is at the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. SHIELDS. Well, I'd say about three blocks down to this old building.

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for the Texas School Book Co.?

Mr. SHIELDS. It will be 14 years the 14th of August.

Mr. BALL. But you work in the warehouse?

Mr. SHIELDS. I do.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you out watching the parade pass by?

Mr. SHIELDS. I was.

Mr. BALL. For what time?

Mr. SHIELDS. I'd say from about 5 to 12 to about 10 after 12; I mean, about 5 to 12 to 10 after 12--I heard the shooting.

Mr. BALL. The shooting was at 12:30.

Mr. SHIELDS. It was--that's when we was standing there watching the parade when it came through.

Mr. BALL. How did you get around to see him before?

Mr. SHIELDS. We just got on the parking lot there because we go up there and sit down there and talk with James Tracey.

Mr. BALL. Who is James Tracey?

Mr. SHIELDS. He was the manager of the lot--there's somebody else there now.

Mr. BALL. That lot is where?

Mr. SHIELDS. It's near Record and Elm.

Mr. BALL. Near Record and Elm?

Mr. SHIELDS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You say you go up there to a parking lot?

Mr. SHIELDS. Well, we go over there every day at noon and talk to the fellow that ran it, but that's not the same fellow there now.

Mr. BALL. But had you, prior to November 22, 1963, had it been your custom of going over there to see him at noon?

Mr. SHIELDS. I had been going by there every day at noon.

Mr. BALL. What about Givens?

Mr. SHIELDS. I would be going some days when he wouldn't go, but I would see him--James Tracey--every day at noon.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, did you go over there?

Mr. SHIELDS. I was there--yes; I was there.

Mr. BALL. Approximately what time?

Mr. SHIELDS. That was around 5 to 12--that would be to 5 after 12.

Mr. BALL. What about Givens?

Mr. SHIELDS. He was there at noon after he had eaten his lunch, I mean, he come on up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade?

Mr. SHIELDS. I sure did.

Mr. BALL. Where was it when you saw it?

Mr. SHIELDS. I was just standing right around there at Mullendorf's Cafe.

Mr. BALL. At what address?

Mr. SHIELDS. On Record and Main.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you?

Mr. SHIELDS. Givens.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear any shots?

Mr. SHIELDS. Yes; I heard the shots.

Mr. BALL. And what did you and Givens do after you heard the shots?

Mr. SHIELDS. I said, "The President has been shot"; we walked back to the lot and where Tracey was. I heard one shot and then a pause and then this repetition--two shots right behind the other, and I thought it was backfire from a car and I said, "Someone shot the President."

Mr. BALL. You said, "Someone shot the President"?

Mr. SHIELDS. That's right, I did. I didn't know what had happened.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. SHIELDS. Well, Givens run down here--right down here.

Mr. BALL. He ran down here to this building?

Mr. SHIELDS. He ran down to the next corner.

Mr. BALL. And what was the next corner?

Mr. SHIELDS. That was on Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. Did you come with him?

Mr. SHIELDS. No; I did not--he had me to stay there at the lot.

Mr. BALL. And they all ran down there?

Mr. SHIELDS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Givens again?

Mr. SHIELDS. Yes; we came back to the building--he and Tracey.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. SHIELDS. We came back down to the Texas School Book Depository Building here and tried to get in the building and they wouldn't let no one in--he couldn't get in and I went on back to the warehouse.

Mr. BALL. What did Givens do?

Mr. SHIELDS. Well, they came and got him because he was working here and I was at the warehouse.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him leave with the police?

Mr. SHIELDS. No; I didn't. I was at the warehouse and he had come here.

Mr. BALL. I believe that's all. This will be written up and you will be asked to sign it and to make any corrections that you wish, you may make them in your own handwriting, and somebody will call you from the U.S. attorney's office and let you know when to come up.

Mr. SHIELDS. OK.

Mr. BALL. Thank you very much.

Mr. SHIELDS. OK.

TESTIMONY OF SAM GUINYARD

The testimony of Sam Guinyard was taken at 10:15 a.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, Sam, and hold up your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name and address for the record?

Mr. GUINYARD. Sam Guinyard.

Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] G-u-i-n-y-a-r-d, and what is your address--where do you live?

Mr. GUINYARD. 2815 South Ervay Street.

Mr. BALL. Where were you working on November 22, 1963?

Mr. GUINYARD. On East Jefferson--501 East Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. Where is that?

Mr. GUINYARD. Harris Motor Co.

Mr. BALL. A used-car lot?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you doing?

Mr. GUINYARD. Porter.

Mr. BALL. How old are you, Sam?

Mr. GUINYARD. I am 28.

Mr. BALL. And where were you born?

Mr. GUINYARD. In Ennis.

Mr. BALL. Ennis, Tex.?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. GUINYARD. Ennis and Hillsboro.

Mr. BALL. And how far through school did you go?

Mr. GUINYARD. Well, I got to the sixth grade.

Mr. BALL. What have you done since then, what kind of work have you done mostly?

Mr. GUINYARD. Compress work.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. GUINYARD. Press cotton--pressing cotton.

Mr. BALL. When did you come to Dallas?

Mr. GUINYARD. Well, I have been back in Dallas ever since 1957. I lived in Plainview about 13 years.

Mr. BALL. At--what kind of work have you done since you came to Dallas?

Mr. GUINYARD. Well, a porter in a carlot.

Mr. BALL. A porter in a carlot?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever been in any kind of trouble in your life?

Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; nothing but a little poker fines that otherwise I paid and I got a couple of tickets in my life.

Mr. BALL. Now, on the day of November 22, 1963, that's the day the President was killed, what were you doing?

Mr. GUINYARD. Working there.

Mr. BALL. And you heard about it, that he had been shot? Didn't you?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; at the time I did.

Mr. BALL. What were you doing and where were you then when you heard that?

Mr. GUINYARD. In Oak Cliff at 501 East Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. What were you doing?

Mr. GUINYARD. Polishing and waxing a station wagon.

Mr. BALL. And did something else happen that day that you remember?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. GUINYARD. Well, this was when Oswald shot the policeman.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what you heard--I just want to know what you were doing and what you heard?

Mr. GUINYARD. Well, he was about--I guess----

Mr. BALL. Now, wait a minute, were you polishing cars when you heard something?

Mr. GUINYARD. When I heard a shot.

Mr. BALL. You heard a noise?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And it sounded like shots?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. GUINYARD. I heard three.

Mr. BALL. Where did the sound come from?

Mr. GUINYARD. Right behind me, north of me--behind me.

Mr. BALL. What street is north of you?

Mr. GUINYARD. Tenth.

Mr. BALL. You were on what street--your carlot faces what street?

Mr. GUINYARD. It faces Jefferson and 10th.

Mr. BALL. And 10th Street is north?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; and I was in the back--I was about half way right in the back.

Mr. BALL. The cross street is Patton Street?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you heard the shots?

Mr. GUINYARD. I raised up trying to see where they were coming from, where the sound was coming from.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. GUINYARD. I was looking--trying to see and after I heard the third shot, then Oswald came through on Patton running--came right through the yard in front of the big white house--there's a big two-story white house--there's two of them there and he come through the one right on the corner of Patton.

Mr. BALL. Could you see down to the corner of 10th and Patton to the house?

Mr. GUINYARD. I seen him when he come between the two houses, come around in front of the last house to get on Patton Street to come out to Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw this?

Mr. GUINYARD. Where was I?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. GUINYARD. I was there at the back, right at the alley back there about as far from Patton Street as--about twice as far from here as to that window.

Mr. BALL. Then, you were about 10 feet from Patton Street?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. So that you could look up Patton Street?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. North on Patton?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you saw a man, did you?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing?

Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.

Mr. BALL. With which hand?

Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.

Mr. BALL. He had it up?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; he had it up just like this.

Mr. BALL. How was he kicking them out?

Mr. GUINYARD. He was rolling them with his hand--with his thumb.

Mr. BALL. Rolling them with his thumb?

Mr. GUINYARD. Checking them--he had the pistol up just like this [indicating].

Mr. BALL. Did he use his left hand any?

Mr. GUINYARD. No; I never did see him use his left hand.

Mr. BALL. He didn't?

Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where was he with reference to the corner of Patton and 10th when you saw him?

Mr. GUINYARD. Where was he?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. GUINYARD. Just as he come around the corner on Patton, he cut through the yard and missed the corner on 10th and Patton and cut through the yard.

Mr. BALL. He cut through the yard of the house on the corner of 10th and Patton?

Mr. GUINYARD. That's right.

Mr. BALL. That would be the southeast corner, wouldn't it?

Mr. GUINYARD. The west--southwest corner--the southeast corner is where he started across, but he come out on Patton on the southwest corner.

Mr. BALL. In other words, when you first saw him he was cutting across the yard of the house on the southeast corner?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That's the white house?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; the big two-story white house.

Mr. BALL. Did he cross Patton?

Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; he come down Patton until he got to about 5 feet from the corner of Jefferson and then he turned across and went across to the west corner on Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. What side of the street did you see him coming down on?

Mr. GUINYARD. He was on the left side--when he come down--it would be the east side.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Callaway there?

Mr. GUINYARD. We was together; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were together?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir; he was at the front and I was at the back.

Mr. BALL. You and Callaway were standing at the alleyway?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The alleyway that runs along the north side of the lot?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, where was Oswald when he passed you going south toward Jefferson?

Mr. GUINYARD. Well, he was between the alley and the driveway coming off Patton.

Mr. BALL. And he was across the street from you, wasn't he?

Mr. GUINYARD. No; he was on this side of the street.

Mr. BALL. You were on the east side of the street?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir; and he was too--he was on the east side of the street until he got across our driveway and then he got onto the west side.

Mr. BALL. How close was he to you when you saw him?

Mr. GUINYARD. I guess he was about 10 feet from me--maybe.

Mr. BALL. About 10 feet?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Callaway has told us and we measured it with a tape measure, that Oswald was on the west side of the street, and we measured it and he figured it was about 55 feet from him when he passed.

Mr. GUINYARD. Well, he crossed over after he crossed the driveway.

Mr. BALL. Well----

Mr. GUINYARD. Mr. Callaway followed him, you see, we was together--he was my boss at that time and he followed him.

Mr. BALL. Callaway?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; trying to see which way was he going.

Mr. BALL. And then, which way did he go after he got to Jefferson?

Mr. GUINYARD. He went west on Jefferson--on the right-hand side--going west.

Mr. BALL. And what did Callaway do?

Mr. GUINYARD. He turned around and run back to the street and we helped load the policeman in the ambulance.

Mr. BALL. He ran back up to 10th Street, did you say?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you go with him?

Mr. GUINYARD. Right with him.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a police car there?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you see besides the police car?

Mr. GUINYARD. The police that was laying down in the front of the car.

Mr. BALL. A policeman?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was he dead or alive at that time?

Mr. GUINYARD. He looked like he was dead to me.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. GUINYARD. Helped put him in the ambulance.

Mr. BALL. You stayed there until the ambulance came?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you there when the truck came up that was driven by Benavides?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He came up right after this?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; he came up from the east side--going west.

Mr. BALL. And then what did you do after that?

Mr. GUINYARD. Well, we stood there a while and talked and I called him Donnie, he picked up all them empty hulls that come out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. Who did--Benavides?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick them up--any of them?

Mr. GUINYARD. He picked them up--I didn't pick them up--I was there with him.

Mr. BALL. You were there?

Mr. GUINYARD. I was there with him.

Mr. BALL. You were there when he picked them up?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were they?

Mr. GUINYARD. Laying across the yard as he kicked them out all around the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. Were they anywhere near the bushes?

Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; there was just this little old shrub that was in the yard just laying down through the yard--that little old shrub that was there.

Mr. BALL. Later that day, did you go down to the police department?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir; I went down that night.

Mr. BALL. That same night?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Whom did you go down with?

Mr. GUINYARD. Me and Ted.

Mr. BALL. You and who?

Mr. GUINYARD. Ted--Ted Callaway.

Mr. BALL. Ted Callaway?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you went to the police station?

Mr. GUINYARD. I went to the identifying office.

Mr. BALL. You went into a place where there were police officers?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And how did you identify him--tell me what happened to you, what you saw?

Mr. GUINYARD. Well, I just saw him.

Mr. BALL. Well, were you in a big room?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes--in a big room.

Mr. BALL. With police officers?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see?

Mr. GUINYARD. I don't understand you.

Mr. BALL. Did you see some men up ahead of you?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes--four men.

Mr. BALL. Four men?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes--four men--handcuffed together.

Mr. BALL. What did you say?

Mr. GUINYARD. They was handcuffed together.

Mr. BALL. They was handcuffed?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; all four of them.

Mr. BALL. Were they of different sizes?

Mr. GUINYARD. Well, they was pretty close together--there wasn't much difference in size.

Mr. BALL. In height--they were about the same?

Mr. GUINYARD. About the same.

Mr. BALL. Were they all about the same color?

Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; they wasn't all about the same color.

Mr. BALL. All about the same color?

Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; they wasn't all about the same color.

Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to any police officer there after you saw them?

Mr. GUINYARD. I talked to one--with the detective--after he came out there.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him--I mean in this room--as you saw these four men up there?

Mr. GUINYARD. He just asked me reckon I could identify them and I said I sure could.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. GUINYARD. I just told him I sure could.

Mr. BALL. What did you say to him about it?

Mr. GUINYARD. Well, I didn't say anything--I was just waiting on them to bring them in.

Mr. BALL. After they brought them in and after you looked at them, what did you tell the police officers?

Mr. GUINYARD. I told them that was him right there--I pointed him out right there. That was him right there.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember where he was standing in the lineup--what number he was?

Mr. GUINYARD. I don't know what his number was, but I can tell you where he was standing at.

Mr. BALL. Where was he standing?

Mr. GUINYARD. He was standing--the second man from the east side, and that lineup was this way [indicating] and he was the second man from that there end.

Mr. BALL. And did you tell any police officer that you thought that was the man?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Whom did you tell; what police officer was it?

Mr. GUINYARD. I don't know his name.

Mr. BALL. You don't know his name?

Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; I don't know his name but I know him now if I would see him.

Mr. BALL. Before you went in there, did the police officers show you any pictures?

Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did the police officer say anything to you before you went in there?

Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he say that he thought they had the man that killed the police officer?

Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; he didn't tell me that.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Ted Callaway say anything before you said you thought that was the man?

Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you with Ted at the time?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How close was Ted to you?

Mr. GUINYARD. Oh--sitting about like that.

Mr. BALL. You mean 3 or 4 feet away from you?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; something like that.

Mr. BALL. How was this man dressed that had the pistol in his hand?

Mr. GUINYARD. He had on a pair of black britches and a brown shirt and a little sort of light-gray-looking jacket.

Mr. BALL. A gray jacket.

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; a light gray jacket and a white T-shirt.

Mr. BALL. A white T-shirt?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; a white T-shirt on under it.

Mr. BALL. Now, he had a light gray jacket on?

Mr. GUINYARD. And a brown shirt on.

Mr. BALL. And a white T-shirt on?

Mr. GUINYARD. Underneath it, because this brown shirt was open at the throat and the white T-shirt under it like this [indicating].

Mr. BALL. That's all I've got to examine you about now, except to show you these clothes, and they are upstairs. We will go up now and take a look at them.

(At this time Counsel Ball, the witness Guinyard and the reporter Oliver left the deposing room on the third floor of the Federal Building and resumed in a deposing room on the fourth floor of the Federal Building and the deposition proceedings continued as follows:)

Mr. BALL. Sam, I'll show you an exhibit here, which is a piece of clothing and which is marked Commission Exhibit No. 150. Have you ever seen this before?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When and where?

Mr. GUINYARD. In Oak Cliff.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see anybody wearing it?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. GUINYARD. Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. GUINYARD. Oak Cliff.

Mr. BALL. Tell me a little more about it.

Mr. GUINYARD. In Oak Cliff and down in the courtroom.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. GUINYARD. Down in the examining room.

Mr. BALL. When this man came down Patton Street toward Jefferson with his gun, you have mentioned he had a shirt on?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You described that shirt as a brown shirt?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Does this look anything like the shirt?

Mr. GUINYARD. It looks just like it does.

Mr. BALL. You saw that shirt before?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. GUINYARD. Down at the city hall.

Mr. BALL. At the police station?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what did you tell them when they showed you this shirt?

Mr. GUINYARD. I told them that that's the shirt he had on.

Mr. BALL. Now, the next exhibit here is Commission Exhibit No. 162; have you ever seen this before?

Mr. GUINYARD. That's the jacket.

Mr. BALL. This is a gray jacket?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; that's the gray jacket.

Mr. BALL. It has a zipper on it?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You say that's the jacket?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; that he had on in Oak Cliff when he passed the lot.

Mr. BALL. That the man with the pistol had on?

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions for you, Sam, and I thank you for coming down, and you can go home now.

Mr. GUINYARD. Thank you.

AFFIDAVIT OF LT. J. C. DAY

The following affidavit was executed by Lt. J. C. Day on May 7, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, _County of Dallas, ss_:

Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Lt. J. C. Day, Dallas Police Department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

When testifying before the President's Commission, I stated I did not remember who returned the two spent 6.5 hulls and envelope to my possession on the night of November 22, 1963. Since returning to Dallas Detective C. N. Dhority has called my attention to the fact he brought the three hulls in the envelope to me and asked me to check them again for fingerprints even though I had checked them when they were picked up on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository about 1:20 p.m. November 22, 1963 by Detective R. M. Sims and myself and placed in a manila envelope. Since talking to Dhority I remember now that he was the one who returned the shells to me about 10:00 p.m. and stated that his office wanted to retain one. He left me two shells and the envelope that Detective Sims and I had previously marked. It was then that I scratched my name on the two shells that were released at 11:45 p.m. to Agent Vince Drain along with the rifle and other evidence.

Signed this 7th day of May 1964.

(S) J. C. Day,
J. C. DAY.

AFFIDAVIT OF LT. J. C. DAY

The following affidavit was executed by Lt. J. C. Day on June 23, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, _County of Dallas, ss_:

Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Lt. J. C. Day, Dallas Police Department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

The following affidavit is made to clear up confusion regarding the three spent 6.5 hulls, commission numbers 543, 544, and 545, found by the 6th floor window of the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963. The hulls were picked up by Detective R. M. Sims and Lieutenant J. C. Day and placed in an envelope. Detective R. L. Studebaker was also present. The envelope was marked and dated by Sims and Day. Detective Sims took the hulls after they were checked for fingerprints by Day. The third hull, commission number 545, was later released directly to the FBI by the Dallas Police Department Homicide Division. At 10:00 P.M. November 22, 1963, Detective C. N. Dhority brought the three hulls in the marked envelope back to Lieutenant Day in the Identification Bureau office to recheck for prints. Dhority retained one hull, commission number 545 and left the other two, commission numbers 543, 544 along with the envelope with me to be sent to the FBI. Vince Drain, FBI agent, took custody at 11:45 A.M. the same day. When I appeared before the commission April 22, 1964, I could not find my name on one of the hulls, identified as commission number 543, and thought this was the hull that had been retained by Dhority. On June 8, 1964, the three hulls, commission numbers 543, 544, and 545, were back in Dallas and were examined by Captain G. M. Doughty and myself at the local FBI office. Close examination with a magnifying glass under a good light disclosed that my name "Day" was on all three hulls, at the small end. Also GD for Captain George Doughty was on two of them. Commission numbers 543 and 544 were the first two sent to Washington on November 22, 1963. They have Doughty's initials where he marked the hulls as they were released to Vince Drain at 11:45 P.M. on November 22, 1963 by Doughty and Day. The third hull, commission number 545, does not have Doughty's mark, but is plainly marked "Day". In Washington, I had numbers 543 and 545 switched because I didn't find my name on number 543. I can identify commission numbers 543, 544, and 545 from my name on them, as the three hulls found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963. As to the time I scratched my name on the hulls, I do not remember whether it was at the window when picked up or at 10:00 P.M. November 22, 1963, when they were returned to me by Dhority in the marked envelope. It had to be one or the other, because this is the only time I had all three hulls in my possession. Both Detective R. L. Studebaker and Detective R. M. Sims, who were present at the window when the hulls were picked up, state I marked them as they were found under the window.

Signed this 23d day of June 1964.

(S) J. C. Day,
J. C. DAY.

AFFIDAVIT OF THOMAS J. KELLEY

The following affidavit was executed by Thomas J. Kelley on June 1, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

CITY OF WASHINGTON, _District of Columbia, ss_:

I, Thomas J. Kelley, being first duly sworn do upon oath depose and state:

I am an Inspector in the United States Secret Service assigned to Secret Service Headquarters in Washington, D.C. On November 22, 1963, I was not in the City of Dallas at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. I was instructed through Deputy Chief Paul Paterni to go to Dallas directly from Lexington, Kentucky, where I had been engaged in a special assignment and arrived on Friday evening in Dallas at approximately 10:30 p.m.

I attended a total of four interviews with Lee Harvey Oswald, all of which were held in the office of Captain J. W. Fritz of the Homicide Bureau of the Dallas Police Department. Three of these interviews occurred on November 23 and the fourth on November 24. (Prior to my arrival in Dallas, Oswald had been interrogated on November 22.)

Subsequent to these interviews I dictated summaries from my notes of the subject matter discussed and these dictated summaries were transmitted to Chief James J. Rowley on November 29 and December 1, 1963.

Copies of these written summaries are attached to this affidavit as exhibit A and incorporated by reference herein and made a part hereof. The summary of my last interview with Oswald which occurred on Sunday, November 24, 1963, was the first portion of a four-page memorandum which included in addition to the report of the interview, my report on the circumstances immediately following the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.

I hereby certify that the attached memoranda constitute my total written memoranda of the interviews with Lee Harvey Oswald at which I was present. I have no additional recollection at this time which I can add to the attached memoranda. I further certify that these memoranda accurately summarize my notes and recollections from these interviews.

Dated this 1st day of June 1964.

(S) Thomas J. Kelley,
THOMAS J. KELLEY.

AFFIDAVIT OF J. W. FRITZ

The following affidavit was executed by J. W. Fritz on June 9, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, _County of Dallas, ss._:

Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared J. W. Fritz, Dallas Police Department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: I wish to supplement the evidence given by me on Wednesday, April 20, 1964, before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, as follows:

_The Spent Rifle Hulls_

Three spent rifle hulls were found under the window in the southeast corner of the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building, Dallas, Texas, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963. When the officers called me to this window, I asked them not to move the shells nor touch them until Lt. Day of the Dallas Police Department could make pictures of the hulls showing where they fell after being ejected from the rifle. After the pictures were made, Detective R. M. Sims of the Homicide Bureau, who was assisting in the search of the building, brought the three empty hulls to my office. These were delivered to me in my office at the police headquarters. I kept the hulls in an envelope in my possession and later turned them over to C. N. Dhority of the Homicide Bureau and instructed him to take them to Lt. Day of the Identification Bureau. I told Detective Dhority that after these hulls were checked for prints to leave two of them to be delivered to the FBI and to bring one of them to my office to be used for comparison tests here in the office, as we were trying to find where the cartridges had been bought. When Detective Dhority returned from the Identification Bureau, he returned the one empty hull which I kept in my possession. Several days later, I believe on the night of November 27, Vince Drain of the FBI called me at home about one o'clock in the morning and said that the Commission wanted the other empty hull and a notebook that belonged to Oswald. I came to the office and delivered these things to the FBI. We have Mr. James P. Hosty's receipt for these items in our report.

_Reference to the Testimony of Roger Craig_

I don't remember the name Roger Craig, but I do remember a man coming into my outer office and I remember one of my officers calling me outside the door of my private office. I talked to this man for a minute or two, and he started telling me a story about seeing Oswald leaving the building. I don't remember all the things that this man said, but I turned him over to Lt. Baker who talked to him. Lee Harvey Oswald was in my office at this time. I don't remember anything about Lee Harvey Oswald jumping up or making any remarks or gestures to this man or to me at this time, and had I brought this officer into my inner office I feel sure that I would remember it. There were other officers in my inner office at the time, and I have found no one who knows about the remarks that you have asked about.

Signed this 9th day of June 1964.

(S) J. W. Fritz,
J. W. FRITZ.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARY JANE ROBERTSON

The testimony of Mrs. Mary Jane Robertson was taken at 12:20 p.m., on May 28, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mrs. Mary Jane Robertson.

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Robertson, my name is Leon D. Hubert, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mrs. Robertson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Mrs. Robertson, I believe that you appear here today by virtue of a general request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission, in a letter addressed by him to Chief Curry, asking Chief Curry to request that you come here. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules adopted also provide that a witness may waive this 3-day notice if he sees fit to do so. Now, I must first ask you if you wish to receive the 3-day notice, or whether you are willing to waive it?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. I am quite willing to.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise then, and raise your right hand so that I may administer the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, please, ma'am?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. My name is Mary Jane Robertson or Mrs. Jim G. Robertson, as I go by.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present residence address?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. 619 Lacewood, L-a-c-e-w-o-o-d [spelling] Drive, in Dallas, of course.

Mr. HUBERT. And your occupation?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. I am classified as a clerk-typist with the city civil service.

Mr. HUBERT. That's Dallas?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes--Dallas--and I work in the special service bureau of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you are a civil service employee but assigned to the Dallas Police Department?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so assigned?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Just about a year and a half--October the 1st I started to work there, so just about a year and a half.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, were you there on Friday, November 22, 1963?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The day the President was killed?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; I certainly was.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you went to work there and what time you left?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; at that time I was coming to work at 7:15 and leaving at 4:15--those were my hours.

Mr. HUBERT. At 7:15 in the morning?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. At 7:15 in the morning and leaving at 4:15 in the afternoon. Now, as to the exact time I left that afternoon, I cannot tell you to the minute because, well, further on in the testimony you will probably want to ask, but Jack Revill, Lieutenant Revill, asked me to take a letter for him, the exact time of which I cannot tell you, but I do remember this very well--my husband had a vacation. He had been on a hunting trip and he was at home, so when Jack asked me to write this letter I went in and phoned home and I said, "I might run just a few minutes late because I don't know if this will be a long letter or a short letter, or what it will consist of," and I did have the car, and ordinarily I would have been home, say, leaving the office at 4:15, in 20 or 25 minutes, you know, but I did get home more or less around 5 o'clock--which was the usual time. I mean, I didn't run, you know, real late or anything, but that part--I definitely remember, and my husband does, too.

Mr. HUBERT. And the letter of Lt. Jack Revill you just talked about was the thing that caused you to be delayed?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. That was what I stayed to write--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is a fact?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. That is a fact.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that was the last thing you did that day?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; when I completed the letter.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally, you would have left at 4:15?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; and I am saying that I didn't run too much after 4:15--the point of it--now, exactly what time I started on that--I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally, how long would it take you to get to your home from your office?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Well, you see, if I leave at 4:15 I make a little better time than if you wait until 4:30 because the more traffic starts then, and it's hard to say exactly, but I go on the freeway, and it's probably 20 minutes and if it's heavy traffic probably 25--you know what I mean?

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be fair to state, then, that you probably left at about 4:30?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. I would assume so. Now, I'm not saying to the very minute or anything like that, but I am saying that approximately--if it was after 5 o'clock, it was very shortly after when I got in the car, you know, I did not run what you would call late by hours or so.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to show you two documents, but I want to identify them with reference to your deposition, so I am marking a document which has been already identified as Commission Exhibit No. 838, as follows: "Dallas, Texas, May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, of the deposition of Mrs. Mary Jane Robertson," and I am signing my name below that, all of which appears in the left margin, and I am doing precisely the same to the other document, which bears the identification, Commission Exhibit No. 709, except that I am marking this as Exhibit No. 2 of the deposition of Mary Jane Robertson, signing my name to that.

Now, Mrs. Robertson, I would ask you to look at Exhibit No. 1 and Exhibit No. 2 which are identified and ask you if that is the letter to which you have previously referred as having been written or typed by you for Lieutenant Revill?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. I didn't this--because I know nothing about this down here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. You are pointing to Exhibit No. 1 and you are covering with your hand the affidavit portion?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you know nothing about that?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. The letter itself, you have noticed that they are actually identical, one appears to be an original and the other a copy?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. That's right--I was trying to see if there was a difference.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember writing these letters yourself?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Why, yes; I wrote them.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything on the letter that identifies you as having written them, I mean like the usual little marks put on the letter by a stenographer?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. No; that's something I always do, but what I mean, the state of confusion--well--I'm sure you can't have a conception of the state of confusion that office was in--our main secretary was out, she had a dental appointment and she had left earlier that morning, there were only two girls in the office and the two deskmen.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you do identify the letter?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Definitely--I identify the letter.

Mr. HUBERT. You identify it from the sense of it or what?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Well, this is something that I did not memorize verbatim, and could not have repeated--what I mean--per word, but I could have told you the general gist of the letter, is what I mean, yes--the actual facts.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it dictated to you?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Lieutenant Revill came in and said, "Mary Jane, I would like for you to take a letter," and like I said, our stenographer was out of the office on an appointment, and I said, "Of course, now, Jack, this has been a hard day and you know I don't take shorthand and if you will be patient with me and let me write it out in longhand, I will be happy to do it for you." That is when I made my phone call home, and so he said, "Well, you take your time," and he said, "I know you don't take shorthand and that's quite all right," and I had him even spell such names so as to be certain of--you know--the agent's name and all like that. He sat across the desk from me, as we are doing here.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was written out in your hand?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; now, Jack, as I remember--I speak of him, we are very informal in our office, as Lieutenant Revill--Lieutenant Revill, as I recall, did have several papers or rough drafts that possibly he had written out or something, but he did speak verbally to me and I wrote in my own handwriting and I used a shorthand notebook. I wrote in my own handwriting.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you used your own handwriting for the purpose of writing the letter?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with your own handwriting notes?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Anything like that I always take and I tear up and put in the wastebasket.

Mr. HUBERT. And you think that's what happened here?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Well, I'm certain it did.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don't know the existence of those notes now, is what I am getting at?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how many copies you made?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. There again, I could not swear to you under oath exactly. Ordinarily we make an original and five. Now, whether Lieutenant Revill just might have said that an original and three will be enough, I cannot tell you.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't know how many you made?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. No--I cannot--I absolutely do not remember that.

Mr. HUBERT. But the normal practice would have been to make more than one copy?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. More than the original?

Mr. HUBERT. More than the original and one copy--normally you would write the original and how many copies?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Now, by this going to the captain that is not necessarily so. Anything we address to the chief we would have definitely more than one carbon copy, but for little instances like that, I cannot remember--Lieutenant Revill just might have said "an original and one will be enough."

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that he did say so?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. I do not--absolutely.

Mr. HUBERT. And you don't really know how many you did make?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. I cannot tell you--I cannot remember.

Mr. HUBERT. When the letter was finished, what happened to it?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. I called Lieutenant Revill, as well as I can remember, I called him into my office. Now, I might have gone into his office, but I took it directly to him. I waited and let him read it and let him proof it over to see it and I know he questioned me--he said, "Are you sure this is the correct way to spell assassination?" And I said, "Yes, sir; I looked it up in the dictionary," and he read the letter and then as I remember, I got my personal belongings together and I left the building then.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you handed the original and copy or copies to him?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Directly to Lieutenant Revill.

Mr. HUBERT. And you don't know what he did with it, to your own knowledge?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Oh, no; I left the building.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about what the figures in the lower right-hand corner on Exhibit 1, that is to say, Commission Exhibit No. 838, mean?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. What do they mean?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. The captain has files of copies and that is his own, and his own personal file. In fact, he gave me a letter, a photostat, which he said it would be quite all right to show that that is his own and that that appears on his file, you know what I mean, the way he has it set up.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about what?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. The O-1 is what I'm talking about.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are showing me a document that is exactly the same actually, it seems to be a photostatic copy of Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2, that you have just testified to.

Mrs. ROBERTSON. That's right, this is in the captain's files.

Mr. HUBERT. This is from the captain's flies and in the left-hand side it shows "WPG"?

Mrs. ROBERTSON. That's Capt. W. P. Gannaway.