Chapter XX: Part 20

Mr. BELIN. What you are saying then is, that it is the pressure at the time of firing in an open chamber that creates the major portion of this residue?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. If you were to have a positive nitrate test on a person's hands, and by positive, I mean it would show the presence of nitrate, would you say, without knowing anything about the firearm that the person fired, that it was more likely that he had fired a .38 caliber revolver, or a bolt-action rifle?

I mean a nonautomatic revolver?

Mr. BARNES. Let me get your question to see if I am correct. If there were nitrates present?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BARNES. In my own mind would I come to the conclusion that it would probably come from a revolver? Rather than a rifle?

Mr. BELIN. Well, nonautomatic revolver, as opposed to a rifle. Which would be more likely?

Mr. BARNES. The revolver would be more likely.

Mr. BELIN. Now you said that you took the paraffin casts off the hands. Do you generally take it of both hands when you take a paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; we do.

Mr. BELIN. When you take a usual paraffin test, do you take it of any other part of the body other than the hands?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. In this case, did you take it of any other portion of the body other than the hands?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What other portion of the body did you take it of?

Mr. BARNES. The right side of his cheek and face.

Mr. BELIN. The right side of Lee Harvey Oswald's cheek and face?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Who directed you to take it there?

Mr. BARNES. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BELIN. Did he particularly say why he wanted it taken there?

Mr. BARNES. I didn't ask the questions why he wanted it. I was ordered to take it from him, and I took it because I had the order to take the test.

Mr. BELIN. Was there an order to take the left cheek also, or not?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you say that you had been making paraffin tests?

Mr. BARNES. Since 1956.

Mr. BELIN. Roughly, how many of those do you do in a month on an average?

Mr. BARNES. It would be hard to say. If I hit it lucky, I won't make too many. If it hits on some other man's duty. It would be hard to say how many I have made over a period of time. I can say that I have made many.

Mr. BELIN. Over these years, do you think you have made as many as 100?

Mr. BARNES. It would be hard to say. I am not going to go into any actual figures because it would be guesswork.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. Of the paraffin tests that you have made, how many have you made of a cheek or cheeks?

Mr. BARNES. One.

Mr. BELIN. Was that with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BARNES. It was.

Mr. BELIN. Other than that, you have never made a paraffin test of anyone's cheek?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you might not have in any other case?

Mr. BARNES. It has never been requested of me before.

Mr. BELIN. Based on your knowledge and information about the science of paraffin tests, do you know whether or not it is a common practice or not a common practice to make it of one cheek?

Mr. BARNES. It is not a common practice.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason it is not a common practice, that you can think of or know of?

Mr. BARNES. Firing a revolver, should he fire a revolver, I would say the revolver most likely would be far enough away where powder residue wouldn't reach his cheek?

Mr. BELIN. What about a rifle?

Mr. BARNES. Firing a rifle, you get your chamber enclosed with steel metal around it, and the chances of powder residue would be very remote.

Mr. BELIN. Have you fired a bolt-action rifle at all before?

Mr. BARNES. Many times.

Mr. BELIN. How close would the chamber be to the cheek as you would be looking through the sight of the gun.

Mr. BARNES. Be several inches to the rear of the chamber.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have any effect on the paraffin test at all?

Mr. BARNES. It sure would.

Mr. BELIN. What about telescopic sights? Would that push your face back further or not?

Mr. BARNES. Push it even further back.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have an effect on the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. The further you get from the chamber, the less possibility of getting powder residue on it would be.

Mr. BELIN. When you made the paraffin cast on the cheek, did you also paint it on with this brush that you are talking about?

Mr. BARNES. I did.

Mr. BELIN. To about a quarter of an inch thickness?

Mr. BARNES. Not quite that much.

Mr. BELIN. When you put the gauze on?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you put some more paraffin on?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Did you cool it with water, or let it naturally harden by room temperature?

Mr. BARNES. Nature cools it from room temperature.

Mr. BELIN. Then you removed it from the cheek?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you need a scissors when you removed it from the cheek?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with these paraffin tests after you made them?

Mr. BARNES. I placed them in a manila, large manila envelope separately.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BARNES. I walked out of Captain Fritz' office, and I had a couple of patrolmen trying to weed their way through the news media so that I could have walking room to get to the elevator to get back to the fourth floor, the ID bureau.

Mr. BELIN. The news media had the third floor pretty well jammed at that time?

Mr. BARNES. I would say it was pretty well jammed.

Mr. BELIN. About what time of the night was this?

Mr. BARNES. Approximately 9 o'clock, I would say, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald say anything to you as you were removing these casts, that you remember?

Mr. BARNES. Very little, other than what I repeated to you before, that he knew what I was trying to do, and that I was wasting my time, that he didn't know anything about what we were accusing him of.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald leave Captain Fritz' office at that time or did he stay there?

Mr. BARNES. I didn't go back, I couldn't tell you.

Mr. BELIN. He didn't come out with you, did he?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Were any remarks of any kind made to you by any of the people in the hallway, nonpolice officers, as you left the office? Questions or remarks or what have you?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did they say?

Mr. BARNES. They kept storming questions at me, "What have you got in that sack, what have you got in that sack, you owe it to the news media to give it to us, what have you got in that sack?"

Mr. BELIN. Would this just come from one person?

Mr. BARNES. All of them.

Mr. BELIN. About how many of them were there at that time?

Mr. BARNES. They had the hallways blocked.

Mr. BELIN. Did you reply to them at all or not?

Mr. BARNES. I didn't answer.

Mr. BELIN. You then went up to the fourth floor to the lab, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. BARNES. I initialed the cast, sealed them, and placed them in our locked evidence room.

Mr. BELIN. Where did they go after that?

Mr. BARNES. They go to our city-county laboratory for analysis.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that city-county laboratory?

Mr. BARNES. At Parkland Hospital.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know when they went there?

Mr. BARNES. The following morning.

Mr. BELIN. Did you get the results from this analysis at all?

Mr. BARNES. The results were obtained by our bureau. I didn't get the results.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what these results were?

Mr. BARNES. I understand--I haven't seen them personally--but I understand they are positive, the ones of his hands.

Mr. BELIN. By positive, you mean they showed the presence of nitrates?

Mr. BARNES. They showed the presence of nitrates.

Mr. BELIN. What about the one on the cheek?

Mr. BARNES. The one of his cheek was negative.

Mr. BELIN. Were any conclusions made because of either the positive results from the test on his hands or the negative result on the test of the cheek?

Mr. BARNES. In my own mind, I didn't expect any positive report from the cheek to start with. But to cut down criticism and to satisfy the public and to show the world that we tried to cover it very well, we did it for possibly any future--I don't know how to word it--any complaints that might come later on.

Mr. BELIN. By complaints, you mean people that might----

Mr. BARNES. Might question why you did or why you didn't do it on something this big. We felt like the public should know that we done the best that we knew how.

Mr. BELIN. Even though you didn't expect to have results?

Mr. BARNES. I didn't personally, and I am the one that made it.

From my experience with paraffin casts and from my experience in shooting rifles, common sense will tell you that a man firing a rifle has got very little chance of getting powder residue on his cheek.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever made a paraffin cast of your cheek after you fired a rifle?

Mr. BARNES. No; I have not.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever made a paraffin test of anyone else's cheek after that person fired a rifle?

Mr. BARNES. I believe I am on record that that is the first paraffin test I ever made of a cheek.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever read periodicals discussing the paraffin test? Any limitations of its use to determine whether or not a person fired a rifle by making a cast of the cheek?

Mr. BARNES. No; I haven't read anything about it.

Mr. BELIN. Basically then, your reasons for reaching this conclusion are your own personal reasons?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. What you earlier described as the chamber being an enclosed chamber, is that it?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Which you said that the gases would not come out of under pressure, and when the chamber would be open for the ejection of a shell from a bolt-action rifle, at that time there would be no bad pressure?

Mr. BARNES. All your pressure is gone forward through your barrel. There is no pressure on the chamber when you operate it after the shot is fired.

Mr. BELIN. In contrast with a nonautomatic revolver, when I pull the trigger, is the back of the chamber open then?

Mr. BARNES. It is open.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information or opinion you can give us with regard to the paraffin tests that might be relevant. Anything you can think of, whether or not I have asked it?

Mr. BARNES. I believe you have covered just about everything.

Mr. BELIN. I call myself a country lawyer, and I don't know.

Mr. BARNES. I am a country boy. I was raised on the farm myself.

Mr. BELIN. Well, maybe we both have something in common.

Mr. BARNES. Still live there.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, did you make any other tests or obtain any other evidence or information from Lee Harvey Oswald other than the paraffin that you made?

Mr. BARNES. I obtained palm prints from Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. When did you do this?

Mr. BARNES. Immediately before we made--no, immediately after, I am sorry, immediately after we made the paraffin test.

Mr. BELIN. I would assume you did it afterwards?

Mr. BARNES. That is right. It was after we made the tests.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you used the phrase a while ago--I mean that when we were discussing shortly before we were taking this deposition just what you did do insofar as your being involved in this investigation----

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. In that discussion did I in any way tell you what to say, or did you just tell me what you did in the nature of the proceedings here?

Mr. BARNES. I told you just what I did. I haven't been prompted by no one.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what did you do when you took the palm print?

Mr. BARNES. We took them back upstairs to the ID bureau for comparison purposes.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you carried back the paraffin casts?

Mr. BARNES. No. We came back and got the palm prints after I delivered the paraffin tests upstairs.

Mr. BELIN. Again, would this be normal procedure to take a palm print in Captain Fritz' office as opposed to your own laboratory?

Mr. BARNES. No; it would be something different. Usually we have them coming up to our identification bureau for that purpose.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason that you know of why Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't brought up to your identification bureau?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What?

Mr. BARNES. Security.

Mr. BELIN. Because of the people in the hall?

Mr. BARNES. The news media in the hallways, and danger of removing Lee Harvey Oswald through the mass of newspapermen.

Mr. BELIN. Did the newspapermen say anything to you as you went down the hallway to Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. BARNES. Everytime that you went through there they asked you all kinds of questions on what you had and what were you doing and how much longer is it going to take, and what have you proved.

Mr. BELIN. Did you answer any of these questions?

Mr. BARNES. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back in the office in Captain Fritz' office? What did you find there? Who did you find in Captain Fritz' office when you came back?

Mr. BARNES. Same two officers that I mentioned, besides Detective Dhority and Detective Leavelle.

Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Oswald present?

Mr. BARNES. Lee Oswald was present.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with Oswald at that time?

Mr. BARNES. None other than telling him that I had to have palm prints of his hand.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything to say about that?

Mr. BARNES. Cooperative.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether he made any objection to the taking of any palm prints?

Mr. BARNES. None whatsoever.

Mr. BELIN. Did he request that he have an attorney present at all, or not?

Mr. BARNES. He didn't request one. He would not sign the fingerprint card when I asked him. We have a place on this card for the prisoner's signature, and I asked him would he please sign that, and he said he wouldn't sign anything until he talked to an attorney.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ask for an attorney or say anything about an attorney when you took the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. None to me.

Mr. BELIN. What did you say when he said he would not sign the fingerprint card?

Mr. BARNES. That was all right with me.

Mr. BELIN. Did you just take the palm prints, or did you also take fingerprints?

Mr. BARNES. We took both.

Mr. BELIN. What is your process of doing that?

Mr. BARNES. Rolling his hands, an ink roller over his palm, and then we have a metal cylinder bar about an inch in diameter that we place the card on and then roll his hands to make it print on the fingerprint card.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever taken palm prints before?

Mr. BARNES. Many times.

Mr. BELIN. Based on your knowledge and information, what is the fact as to whether or not palm prints are distinct means of identification of a person?

Mr. BARNES. Just as good as fingerprints The only thing that I could add to that would be, there is no way of classifying palm prints, where with fingerprints, we have the system where we classify them and can go look them up.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can offer with reference to the investigation of the assassination or the shooting of Officer Tippit other than the paraffin test and the palm and fingerprint tests that you took?

Mr. BARNES. None that I can think of right now, other than printing pictures of both killings.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else that Lee Oswald said other than the fact he would not sign his name to the card?

Mr. BARNES. He had very little to say.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that in anyway might be relevant to this investigation here?

Mr. BARNES. Not that I can think of at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Now were you on duty on Sunday morning, November 24?

Mr. BARNES. No; I was not.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any general comment among the police officers, what I call the line officers, about the presence of the press in the police headquarters building during this period of time?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; we discussed it.

Mr. BELIN. Without mentioning any names which might embarrass any individual, and without necessarily quoting yourself, what was the general nature or tenor of that discussion?

Mr. BARNES. Disgusted.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any objections that were voiced about this, or not?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; there were.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not the presence of the press in any way affected the handling of this matter by the police department?

Mr. BARNES. It would be just like you carrying on your work in your office when you had it full of newspapermen or anybody else, as far as that is concerned.

Mr. BELIN. Were there people other than newspapermen generally in the police headquarters?

Mr. BARNES. It is hard to tell just who was who.

Mr. BELIN. Now you were not there at the time of the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack Ruby, were you?

Mr. BARNES. No; I was not.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the television showing of the film that ran during the--during that time?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. You have had some experience, you said earlier, as a photographer, I believe, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not the presence of light such as you say you saw in the movie film that you saw--what is the fact as to whether or not the presence of these lights would affect the ability of officers protecting Lee Harvey Oswald to discern movements of people?

Mr. BARNES. Very much.

Mr. BELIN. In what way?

Mr. BARNES. Blinding them. The flash from the many cameras that were present in the basement of the city hall, the lights set up by your TV cameramen, all of this would work against the officers in safeguarding any prisoner.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of with reference to the security matters of Lee Harvey Oswald that might be relevant here other than your statements about the press and the problems of light?

Mr. BARNES. Other than the movement of him with the throngs of press men, which the security I thought was very good.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of right now?

Mr. BARNES. None that I can think of at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you care to add in this deposition that might in any way be helpful or relevant?

Mr. BARNES. I think this pretty well covers it.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for your cooperation in coming down here, sergeant.

Mr. BARNES. I am glad to come. Hate to come under these circumstances.

Mr. BELIN. We hate to be here under these circumstances. It is not a pleasant job for any of us, but it is a job that has to be done. All right, sir.

I forgot to say that you have a right to, if you like, to read your deposition and sign it, or else you can waive reading and have the court reporter send it to us in Washington.

Mr. BARNES. I believe I will come back and let her show it to me, and I will sign it then.

TESTIMONY OF J. B. HICKS

The testimony of J. B. Hicks was taken at 3:10 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Please stand up and hold up your right hand.

(Witness complying.)

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give here today will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HICKS. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please, and your address?

Mr. HICKS. J. B. Hicks, 4318 Matilda, Dallas.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. HICKS. I am with the police department, city of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. You are with the special section of the department?

Mr. HICKS. The identification bureau; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the identification bureau?

Mr. HICKS. Let's see, about, a little over 7 years now.

Mr. BALL. Tell me about yourself--where you were born.

Mr. HICKS. I was born in Irving, Tex., which is a suburb out here of Dallas, September 29, 1918.

Mr. BALL. What was your education?

Mr. HICKS. I finished high school, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. HICKS. Then--you mean where I went to work and from there?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. HICKS. I worked a short while for Sanger Bros., I believe 3 or 4 months or so, then I was employed by Higgenbotham-Bailey Logan Co. which is a wholesale company here in Dallas; from there I went to work with the police department where I have been for a little over 22 years now.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do with the crime lab?

Mr. HICKS. I do the usual, oh, photography work, fingerprint comparisons, darkroom work and anything that might come under the crime lab; the crime scene, search duties.

Mr. BALL. You work under Lieutenant Day?

Mr. HICKS. I work under Lieutenant Day; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I was off duty that day.

Mr. BALL. But you were called back to duty?

Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time of day?

Mr. HICKS. I had--my wife, I believe it was called me from her work. She had heard of the happening and knowing that I was off, of course, she figured I would be called, so when she called me, I called in to Lieutenant Knight, who is also in the identification bureau, and told him that I was getting ready and if they needed me to report, to call me and tell me where to go to, and so he did. Oh, I don't know exactly how long it had taken place and the exact time that he did call me. The time right there, I can't recall. I know I did get to work somewhere around 3.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work, at the crime lab?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; they told me to report directly to Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down there?

Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you went down there what did you find?

Mr. HICKS. Lieutenant Day--well, first I saw Chief Lumpkin, who told me Lieutenant Day was there in the building and to report to him on the sixth floor, I believe it was and he and Detective Studebaker, I believe it was were the two that were still on that particular floor.

Mr. BALL. Day and Studebaker?

Mr. HICKS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you do some work with them?

Mr. HICKS. Yes; there was--well, no. Lieutenant Day was dusting several items around there for fingerprints at the time and Mr. Studebaker had taken some pictures and was still taking a few others. I assisted him in moving the equipment back and forth and I don't know, I don't believe I actually took any of the pictures upstairs; however, I was there when some of them were taken.

Mr. BALL. There were three exploded cartridge hulls on the floor, weren't there?

Mr. HICKS. Yes; I am not sure; I believe they had already been picked up and removed when I arrived.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who picked them up?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I don't know off hand.

Mr. BALL. Did you later see them in your laboratory?

Mr. HICKS. I believe I saw one of the particular ones there that night.

Mr. BALL. You did?

Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine it?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not. I think Lieutenant Day had all of them.

Mr. BALL. Do you do ballistics work in your laboratory?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; we have no facilities for firing or testfiring any of the guns there.

Mr. BALL. Did you do any identification work on either the assassination of President Kennedy or the investigation of Tippit's murder?

Mr. HICKS. Do you mean as far as fingerprints?

Mr. BALL. Yes; and things of that sort.

Mr. HICKS. Let me see now, I took a set of Oswald's prints from him that night some time. I do not recall.

Mr. BALL. 9 o'clock or so?

Mr. HICKS. It was some time in that area.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you took the prints?

Mr. HICKS. I was in Captain Fritz' office. In other words, I made those on an inkless pad. That's a pad we use for fingerprinting people without the black ink that they make for the records.

Mr. BALL. What else did you do there?

Mr. HICKS. I was one of the two who made the paraffin cast on Oswald.

Mr. BALL. You and who else?

Mr. HICKS. Sergeant Barnes.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever done that before, the paraffin cast?

Mr. HICKS. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald protest any or did he permit you to do that?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; he was willing and had no comment on it as far as the making of them.

Mr. BALL. Did you test the paraffin cast; did you make any test on it?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; that's done by the lab at Parkland Hospital which Lieutenant Alexander, I believe is in charge there.

Mr. BALL. But you did not do it yourself?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What has been your experience with paraffin casts? How accurate are they in determining whether or not a person has fired a firearm previously?

Mr. HICKS. My own personal opinion is that it is not an exact conclusive evidence that, if you are familiar with that test, anything containing nitrate might show up on a test of that sort.

Mr. BALL. Is it usual to find any trace of nitrate on the face if a rifle has been fired?

Mr. HICKS. That is the first time that I had the opportunity to make a paraffin test on a person's face.

Mr. BALL. You never made one before?

Mr. HICKS. Never before.

Mr. BALL. The other tests were always on the hands?

Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there some reason for that?

Mr. HICKS. I had never had the occasion arise that I know of where anyone had that suggested, that a paraffin test be made of a cheek. On other occasions they were only interested in the hand.

Mr. BALL. Did you do anything else with respect to the investigation?

Mr. HICKS. I don't recall anything outstanding that I did in the investigation further there. Now, I know we were all pretty well busy there until about 2 or 2:30 in the morning but most of it was, I would imagine regular officework and just back and forth if someone had asked did we get a picture of this and picture of that; well, I can't recall any other particular item that I might have done.

Mr. BALL. Were you present when Oswald was arraigned in the identification bureau?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I left just a few minutes before that, I understand.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave; do you know?

Mr. HICKS. I left it was shortly after 2. I don't know the exact time, maybe 2:15.

Mr. BALL. You think he was arraigned after you left?

Mr. HICKS. I am rather certain that he was because I believe I would have known about it had he been arraigned before I left because there is only one door in our office to go out and had any other group been there, I would have noticed it, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Oswald any?

Mr. HICKS. I only asked him his name when I made his fingerprints and I did not question him or go to any details on talking to him.

Mr. BALL. You were not present at any showups of Oswald?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any fingerprint study in this case or palmprint study?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir--any comparisons to the prints that we had?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. You did not compare the prints you took of Oswald with any specimen that might have been taken from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a paper sack in the items that were taken from the Texas School Book Depository building?

Mr. HICKS. Paper bag?

Mr. BALL. Paper bag.

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not. It seems like there was some chicken bones or maybe a lunch; no, I believe that someone had gathered it up.

Mr. BALL. Well, this was another type of bag made out of brown paper; did you ever see it?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I don't believe I did. I don't recall it.

Mr. BALL. I believe that's all, Mr. Hicks.

Mr. HICKS. All right.

Mr. BALL. This will be written up and submitted to you for signature if you want, or you can waive signature; which do you prefer?

Mr. HICKS. Well, when would I have to come back to sign this?

Mr. BALL. Probably next week sometime.

Mr. HICKS. Well, that will be all right.

Mr. BALL. Suit yourself, either way. If you want to waive signature it's all right with us or if you want to come back.

Mr. HICKS. I will come back.

Mr. BALL. All right, she will notify you. Thanks very much.

TESTIMONY OF HARRY D. HOLMES

The testimony of Harry D. Holmes was taken at 4 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, would you rise and raise your right hand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HOLMES. I do, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. HOLMES. Harry D. Holmes.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Holmes?

Mr. HOLMES. 1711 McManus, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. HOLMES. Postal inspector.

Mr. BELIN. For the U.S. Post Office Department?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. HOLMES. I am 57.

Mr. BELIN. What is your educational background? Did you go to high school here?

Mr. HOLMES. I graduated from high school in Kansas City, and went 2 years to William Jewell College at Liberty, Mo., and went almost through my third year in Kansas City. Went to dental college in Kansas City.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HOLMES. Well, all that time I was working in the post office as a clerk, and about that time the war broke out and I went into the Postal Inspection Service in April 1942, and have been a postal inspector ever since.

Mr. BELIN. Have you been in Dallas ever since then?

Mr. HOLMES. No; I came here July 1, 1948. I have been here ever since.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you on November 22, 1963, around noon or so. That is the day of the assassination?

Mr. HOLMES. I was in my office on the fifth floor of the terminal annex building, located at the corner of Houston and Commerce Streets, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Houston and Commerce Streets in Dallas. Now, where is Commerce with relation to Elm?

Mr. HOLMES. Commerce, Main, Elm--two blocks.

Mr. BELIN. So Commerce would be two blocks south of Elm?

Mr. HOLMES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. On what corner is your building?

Mr. HOLMES. It is on the northeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. The northeast corner?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; well, now, wait a minute.

Mr. BELIN. I mean the building itself.

Mr. HOLMES. This is the reflecting pool, and here is the underpass, comes down like this, and this is Elm, and this is Main, and this is Commerce, and my building is right here. Right here is the School Book.

Mr. BELIN. This is north?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; that is "cattywampus." This would be the southwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You have now corrected your testimony by drawing a diagram. What corner is this?

Mr. HOLMES. Southwest.

Mr. BELIN. On what side of the building is your office where you were sitting?

Mr. HOLMES. On the north side.

Mr. BELIN. From your office looking north, what building would you see?

Mr. HOLMES. The Texas School Book Depository Building. And I am on the fifth floor of my building.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on the fifth floor about the time the motorcade was coming down Main Street?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the motorcade turn from Main onto Houston?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What direction did it turn on Houston?

Mr. HOLMES. It turned north on Houston to Elm, and then turned left on Elm.

Mr. BELIN. To go down to the triple underpass?

Mr. HOLMES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. About how fast was the motorcade going when you saw it, if you have any estimate on it?

Mr. HOLMES. I would say 15 miles an hour.

Mr. BELIN. Would you describe what you saw and heard then?

Mr. HOLMES. As it came out of Main Street, the President was sitting on the right in the back seat. His wife was on the left. Governor Connally, whom I also recognized, was sitting on the right of the middle seat.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking with the aid of any optical instrument?

Mr. HOLMES. I had a pair of 7-1/2 x 50 binoculars. They were acknowledging the applause of the crowd and kind of waving, but not standing up. This is a short block.

Mr. BELIN. From Main to Elm?

Mr. HOLMES. To Elm is really not more than a good full block, but the motorcade turned north on Houston and went to Elm and turned left on Elm where it started on a downgrade to what we refer to as a triple underpass. As it turned in front of the School Book Depository, I heard what to me sounded like firecrackers, and it was my recollection that there were three of them.

I had my binoculars on this car, on the Presidential car all the time. I realized something was wrong, but I thought they were dodging somebody throwing things at the car like firecrackers or something, but I did see dust fly up like a firecracker had burst up in the air.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see the dust?

Mr. HOLMES. Off of President Kennedy and I couldn't tell you which one of the cracks of the firecracker resulted in this.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection of the amount of time that elapsed between each of the three sounds?

Mr. HOLMES. I have tried to set a time, but it just escapes me. Honestly, I couldn't say. They were rather rapid. Say 20 seconds or something like that.

Mr. BELIN. You mean 20 seconds elapsed between all three, or less than 20 seconds?

Mr. HOLMES. Possibly 20 seconds, or half a minute and then crack and kind of a lapse and then another crack. I wouldn't want to swear to that. I have tried to recall it.

Mr. BELIN. Was there more time between the first and the second one, or between the second and third?

Mr. HOLMES. I couldn't tell you that.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see after that?

Mr. HOLMES. Mr. Kennedy leaned over against his wife, Mrs. Kennedy, as this thing, firecracker, looked like, come out. The car almost came to a stop, and Mrs. Kennedy pulled loose of him and crawled out over the turtleback of this Presidential car and was almost off of the back of the turtleback when a man from a car next to it came running up and I never--I got the impression in one way that she was trying to help him on the bumper.

I got the impression in another way that he was trying to push her back in the seat for fear she would fall and hurt herself. It was so quick that that was my impression, and in fact we discussed it. There was several of us looking out of the window, why she was going out over this car, and we were arguing that she was trying to help the Secret Service man or the Secret Service man was trying to get her back in the car, and this was our impression.

Policemen jumped off of the motorcycles that were along the route and with drawn pistols started rushing into the crowd. I saw many people down on the ground, and I have one particular couple in mind that I had watched on a bench, sitting on a park bench that the man had this woman down. I remember my impression at the time that he was trying to take a gun away from her, or something, and by that time I decided maybe there was a gun involved in it instead of firecrackers.

He had her down on the ground. But then it later developed that he was trying to protect her from the shots. But then I didn't know that at the time. And I did watch her as they got up. Then different people hid around behind pillars in this arbor.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen?

Mr. HOLMES. Then just people went from every direction hunting around the railroad yard and among the cars parked in the area. I saw a policeman rushing into the School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. Was this a motorcycle policemen?

Mr. HOLMES. I did definitely see motorcycle policemen, one of--one or two or three--with their white helmets, and these motorcycle uniforms rushed up in the crowd with drawn pistols. And I thought maybe they might have been shooting to frighten the people.

Mr. BELIN. Where did the noise sound like it came from?

Mr. HOLMES. It reverberated among the buildings and I couldn't tell you. It sounded like from the crowd over there.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else happen that afternoon that you think is important insofar as the investigation of the assassination is concerned?

Mr. HOLMES. I watched for hours from that vantage point up there with my binoculars, hoping I would see someone running across the railroad tracks, or maybe that I could get word to the police as to where they were, because it was like a birdseye view of the panorama of the whole area.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone run across the railroad track?

Mr. HOLMES. No. I saw nothing suspicious and I am a trained suspicioner.

Mr. BELIN. I want to see what the court reporter has down in her notes.

Now, what was the next contact you had with anything connected with the assassination or the investigation?

Mr. HOLMES. I never quit. I didn't get to bed for 2 days.

Mr. BELIN. Tell us what you did that you feel might be important that we should record here.

Mr. HOLMES. Of course I was in contact with the chief inspector in Washington, who was listening to the radio reports, and I remember once he called and he said, "Well, now, could the shots have come from the terminal annex building. Has your office been shaken out, the annex." Of course we gave that attention but there was nothing of any nature there of any importance. I was doing all I could to help other agencies.

One of the box clerks downstairs came up after an hour or so when the radio reports came in about the apprehension of Lee Oswald following the shooting of Officer Tippit, and said, "I think you ought to know, Mr. Holmes, that we rented a box downstairs to a Lee Oswald recently, and it is box number so-and-so".

That was my first tip that he had a box downstairs in the terminal annex. That box is No. 6225.

Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked as Holmes Deposition Exhibit No. 1. I will ask you to state what this is.

Mr. HOLMES. That is a photo copy of the original box rental application completed by Lee H. Oswald covering box No. 6225, which he completed on November the 1st, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Where it says, date of application, that you gave, is it not?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I notice over here in--a notation on the side 11-22-63, with some initials on it. Do you know what that is?

Mr. HOLMES. Those are my initials and they indicate that I took the original box application from the post office records on that date.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with it?

Mr. HOLMES. I turned it over to an FBI agent at a later date. I don't know when.

Mr. BELIN. Did any particular employee ever remember actually dealing with Lee Oswald?

Mr. HOLMES. He could not recall what the man looked like. He couldn't identify him from what he later saw his pictures in the paper. He could not identify him as actually being the man that rented the box, because I have talked to him about it.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on Deposition Exhibit 1, for the name of the firm or the corporation, it says, "Fair Play for Cuba Committee" and "American Civil Liberties Union," is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And kind of business, it says, "nonprofit," is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Then business address, there is a dash running through there, and home address is "3610 North Beckley," is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. That is the address he gave as the residential address when he rented the box.

Mr. BELIN. Then there is a signature "Lee H. Oswald," with the date of November 1, 1963?

Mr. HOLMES. This clerk told me that the man definitely filled this thing out himself.

Mr. BELIN. Does the clerk remember seeing it?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. There is a stamp, which I assume is your post office stamp, that says on there, "Date box opened, November 1, 1963," and the box number is written in as "6225".

Mr. HOLMES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. There--is there less charge for a nonprofit organization box than there is for anything else?

Mr. HOLMES. No. That box went closed for lack of payment of rent on December 31.

Mr. BELIN. What year?

Mr. HOLMES. Of 1963.

Mr. BELIN. After you found out that this was his box, did you keep any surveillance on it?

Mr. HOLMES. We kept a 24-hour, round-the-clock surveillance from about well into Sunday, I think, 3 days.

Mr. BELIN. That is the Sunday that Lee Harvey Oswald was shot?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How many box keys were given out, according to your records, for the box?

Mr. HOLMES. One.

Mr. BELIN. Was that one ever turned back to you?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. When was that?

Mr. HOLMES. Didn't the police have it? I saw it--yes.

Mr. BELIN. You saw it at the police department?

Mr. HOLMES. I asked them about it, and he asked could this be it? I had taken the duplicate key with me to see if I could match it. They have numbers on them and I did. The detective pulled it out and said, "Is this it," in the presence of Captain Fritz, and I matched the numbers, and it was.

Mr. BELIN. Were the numbers the same for the box number as the key number?

Mr. HOLMES. No; it was a key number. Fritz kept it with the evidence.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this box or the application, Deposition Exhibit 1 here?

Mr. HOLMES. Only that an occasional Russian newspaper was received in that box after we began to watch it from then on until it was closed. No first-class mail. What is "The Daily Worker," sir? It's been the "Daily Worker," now.

Mr. BELIN. There was some newspaper that came? Well--some American newspaper?

Mr. HOLMES. It is what used to be "The Daily Worker," came, and a couple of Russian newspapers came there.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HOLMES. From Minsk. That was her hometown, Marina's hometown in Russia.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else in connection with this box and this application that you care to talk about?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Then what was the next thing that you had contact with pertaining to the assassination?

Mr. HOLMES. Saturday morning----

Mr. BELIN. This would be November 23?

Mr. HOLMES. Twenty-third. I came into the lobby of the terminal annex, and the postal inspector that was on duty mentioned that the FBI agent had called to inquire as to how they could obtain an original post office money order.

He said he had told them that they would have to get it in Washington, but would have to know the number of the post office money order.

So he was worrying then as to how he could get that number.

So I knew about the post office money order. They said that Oswald--they said that also this FBI agent had passed on the information that, I don't know whether he told him or I called the FBI after--I went on up to my office, but somewhere I got the information that the FBI had knowledge that a gun of this particular Italian make and caliber had been purchased from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, that it had been purchased, and the FBI furnished me the information that a money order of some description in the amount of $21.95 had been used as reimbursement for the gun that had been purchased from Klein's in Chicago, and that the purchase date was March 20, 1963. I immediately had some men begin to search the Dallas money order records with the thought that they might have used a U.S. postal money order to buy this gun.

I didn't have any luck, so along about 11 o'clock in the morning, Saturday, I had my boys call the postal inspector. Oh, wait a minute, let's back up.

I had my secretary go out and purchase about half a dozen books on outdoor-type magazines such as Field and Stream, with the thought that I might locate this gun to identify it, and I did.

Mr. BELIN. You have what magazine?

Mr. HOLMES. Field and Stream of November 1963.

Mr. BELIN. You found a Field and Stream magazine of just November 1963?

Mr. HOLMES. It was the current magazine on the rack.

Mr. BELIN. You got it to look for a gun and identified it in this magazine? Is this the page? I will call it Holmes Deposition Exhibit 2.

Mr. HOLMES. Here, page 98.

Mr. BELIN. Well, it is on the back of a page numbered 98, is that right?

Mr. HOLMES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Or the front side. I am marking on the top of it, "Holmes Deposition Exhibit 2."

Was that the page you tore out?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I notice there is a magazine or there is a number of guns identified on that page.

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I see one circled in red, is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Who circled that in red?

Mr. HOLMES. I did.

Mr. BELIN. Then I see that it is a picture with a gun with a scope on it and it says, "6.5 Italian carbine," in big black letters. And underneath it says, "Late military issue. Only 40 inches overall. Weighs 7 lbs. Shows only slight use, test-fired and head spaced, ready for shooting. Turned-down bolt 6-shot, clip fed, rear sight." And it is marked "$12.78."

Mr. HOLMES. With scope, it is $19.95.

Mr. BELIN. There is a number. That $12.78 says "C20-1196." And underneath that it says, "C20-750, carbine with brand new 4x-3/4" diameter (illustrated) $19.95." Is that right?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Then on the lower right-hand corner of the page there is a kind of place for clipping out of coupons. It is marked "Klein's Sporting Goods at 227 West Washington Street, Chicago 6, Illinois," then there is a place for a box to be checked. It says, "cash customers, send check or money order in full. Unless otherwise specified, send $1.00 postage and handling on any size order ... $1.50 on shotgun and rifles."

Then there is a place at the bottom of the page. It is a place for putting the name and address and the city and State, is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now I notice on a piece of scrap paper you have taken the $19.95 which would be the exact amount for the rifle with the scope, and then added the $1.50 for the charge that the coupon says for postage and handling and you come up with a total of $21.45.

I thought you said the FBI said $21.95?

Mr. HOLMES. He had, and that was the amount of money order I had been looking for. So I had my postal inspector in charge call our Chicago office and suggested that he get an inspector out to Klein's Sporting Goods and recheck it for accuracy, that if our looking at the right gun in the magazine, they were looking for the wrong money order.

Mr. BELIN. So what happened?

Mr. HOLMES. So in about an hour Postal Inspector McGee of Chicago called back then and said that the correct amount was $21.95--$21.45--excuse me, and that the shipping--they had received this money order on March the 13th, whereas I had been looking for March 20.

So then I passed the information to the men who were looking for this money order stub to show which would designate, which would show the number of the money order, and that is the only way you could find one.

I relayed this information to them and told them to start on the 13th because he could have bought it that morning and that he could have gotten it by airmail that afternoon, so they began to search and within 10 minutes they called back and said they had a money order in that amount issued on, I don't know that I show, but it was that money order in an amount issued at the main post office, which is the same place as this post office box was at that time, box 2915 and the money order had been issued early on the morning of March the 12th, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. To whom?

Mr. HOLMES. They are issued in blank. He has to fill it in.

Mr. BELIN. Does it say the name of the person who is purchased--purchasing----

Mr. HOLMES. No; you don't get----

Mr. BELIN. He had to fill it in himself?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You mentioned another post office box, and a new number there. When was that?

Mr. HOLMES. Just now?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, No. 2915?

Mr. HOLMES. That is the box he had rented at the main post office before he went to New Orleans?

Mr. BELIN. When you say the main post office, what city and State?

Mr. HOLMES. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. When did you learn about this, if you remember?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't know that I can tell. Some clerk was passing information to me and also it could have been that McGee, this inspector said it was sent to box 2915, in Dallas. I couldn't tell you when I first realized he had this box.