Chapter XIII: Part 13

Mr. BALL. Were you there when they were made?

Mr. SIMS. I was in the room--most of the time I was.

Mr. BALL. What time were these paraffin casts made?

Mr. SIMS. We started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I believe, they lasted a good long while--I don't know how long.

Mr. BALL. What time were the paraffin casts made?

Mr. SIMS. I don't have any idea--it was sometime after 8:55.

Mr. BALL. Can you give me an outside limit on it?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, they started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I guess--that would take--just a rough guess, 10 or 15 minutes to do that, and they had to heat their wax first and make the preparations then for the paraffin tests.

Mr. BALL. Would you say that the paraffin tests were made not later than 10 o'clock that day?

Mr. SIMS. Not later than 10?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't say. I know that they were in the office there all this time making these paraffin casts of his hands and his face.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened?

Mr. SIMS. Well, at 11:30 p.m., Barratt and I made out the arrest sheets on Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald then?

Mr. SIMS. He was there and he was still in the office there.

Mr. BALL. Did you make the arrest sheets out in front of him while he was there in the office?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he was present when we did it or not.

Mr. BALL. But he was still in the interrogation room of Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he was in one or the other; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who had charge of him when you made out the arrest sheets?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that would be.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SIMS. We made out the arrest sheets on Oswald and shortly afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came into the office there, came back to the office, and told us to take Oswald down out in front of the stage at the showup room.

Mr. BALL. Why did you do that?

Mr. SIMS. Because we were told to.

Mr. BALL. Was that usual to do that?

Mr. SIMS. Is it usual?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. SIMS. Yes; it's unusual.

Mr. BALL. Unusual to do it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you why he did it?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do it for?

Mr. SIMS. Just for the press, I believe.

Mr. BALL. For the press?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. SIMS. We--shortly before midnight--we took him down to the--they call it--it's where the officers meet there, where the showup room is--the assembly room.

Mr. BALL. And was he on the stage?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was he?

Mr. SIMS. He was in front of the stage.

Mr. BALL. And--in front of the stage?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what happened?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he had--the room was full of newspapermen.

Mr. BALL. And what did they do?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I believe they had a little short interview there with him.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he answer?

Mr. SIMS. He answered; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were the television cameras in there also?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And this was about what time?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it would be about 12--we kept him in there about 5 minutes and went to the jail office about 12:20, so that would have been about, I guess, about 12:15.

Mr. BALL. Tell me exactly what Chief Curry told you before you took him down there--what were his exact instructions?

Mr. SIMS. I don't believe Chief Curry said anything to me.

Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz told you to take him down there?

Mr. SIMS. We were told to take him down to the press--to the police assembly room.

Mr. BALL. Who gave you those specific orders?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I couldn't say who gave me those specific orders.

Mr. BALL. Do you think it was Fritz?

Mr. SIMS. I just don't remember who it was.

Mr. BALL. You have stated in your notes that Chief Curry came to Fritz' office and told you to take Oswald down in front of the stage at the showup room?

Mr. SIMS. Let's see (reading from instrument in his possession) "* * * shortly afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came to Captain Fritz' office and told us to take Oswald down out in front of the stage at the showup room."

Mr. BALL. Does that look like it was Curry that told you that?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know which one of them told us.

Mr. BALL. Did one of the two tell you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; evidently they did.

Mr. BALL. And what else did they tell you?

Mr. SIMS. (Reading from instrument in his hand.) "Chief Curry gave us instructions not to let anyone touch Oswald, and if they attempted to do so, for us to take him to jail immediately."

Mr. BALL. This was in connection with the press interview with Oswald, wasn't it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what questions were asked Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him whether or not he had shot the President?

Mr. SIMS. I believe that was asked--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he tell them?

Mr. SIMS. He told them "no."

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him if he had killed Tippit or shot Tippit?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they did or not--it was just a bunch of them hollering at him--that's all I remember.

Mr. BALL. A bunch of them doing what?

Mr. SIMS. A bunch of them hollering at him--talking to him.

Mr. BALL. Were they talking loud?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it was pretty noisy.

Mr. BALL. Now, you took him back to the jail office at 12:20?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; we took him back to the jail office at 12:20 a.m. on November the 23d.

Mr. BALL. And you turned him over to the jailer?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we took him up to the fourth floor.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. We turned him over to the jailers there.

Mr. BALL. You turned him over to the jailers on the fourth floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, the next day, did you see him?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, I arrived for work at 9:30 a.m.

Mr. BALL. And when did you first see Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. We checked at 10:25 a.m.--we checked--Boyd and I checked Lee Harvey Oswald out of jail and brought him to Captain Fritz' office for questioning.

Mr. BALL. Who was present at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Let's see, Mr. Bookhout of the FBI and Robert Nash who is the U.S. marshal, Mr. Kelley of the Secret Service.

Mr. BALL. And who else?

Mr. SIMS. And that was all.

Mr. BALL. And yourself?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I believe it says here--"Boyd and Hall stayed in the office during the interrogation."

Mr. BALL. You weren't in there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know why you left--did you have something else to do?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't know if I was called out or what.

Mr. BALL. And how long did that interrogation take?

Mr. SIMS. We returned him back to the jail at 11:30 a.m.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SIMS. Then, shortly afterward, myself and Boyd and Hall and Detective C. N. Dhority, (spelling) D-h-o-r-i-t-y--we went to Oswald's room at 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. BALL. Who told you to do that?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do out there?

Mr. SIMS. We made another search of his room.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "search"--did you have a search warrant?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if we had a search warrant or not.

Mr. BALL. You went in the house, did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; we went in the house.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to the owner, Mrs. Johnson?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; we talked to him.

Mr. BALL. Mr. or Mrs.--which one?

Mr. SIMS. I believe both of them was there; I'm not positive about that.

Mr. BALL. And you went into Oswald's room, didn't you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see?

Mr. SIMS. I think all we found in there was a paper clip or something of that nature. I don't remember what it was.

Mr. BALL. A paper clip?

Mr. SIMS. We didn't find anything.

Mr. BALL. Did you take anything away with you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we took the paper clip and a rubber band or something--I don't know what it was--it wasn't anything to speak of, I know, the room was clean.

Mr. BALL. What time did you arrive and what time did you leave?

Mr. SIMS. Well, shortly after 11:30 we left--we arrived at 11:59 and left at 12:30.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SIMS. Well----

Mr. BALL. In the afternoon, did you work on this case? On the Oswald case?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I'm sure we did.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you did?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't talk to any.

Mr. BALL. Did you take any statements?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BALL. When was the next time you saw Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. At 6 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. We brought him back to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. Who are "we"?

Mr. SIMS. Myself, M. G. Hall, and Detective L. C. Graves.

Mr. BALL. Where was Boyd when you did that?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. He wasn't with you at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you get Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. From the jail.

Mr. BALL. You took him to Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mr. SIMS. We returned him at--myself, Hall, and Graves--returned him at 7:15 to the jail.

Mr. BALL. Now, were you in Captain Fritz' office during that interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. No; I don't believe I was.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what you did after that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't know what I did after that.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Oswald again?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did see him again.

Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 24th?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I was off that day.

Mr. BALL. And you heard of Oswald's death over the radio; is that right?

Mr. SIMS. Over the television.

Mr. BALL. You watched it over television, did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you fellows have any suggestions for questions--you might go ahead and ask him any questions if you have any?

Mr. STERN. Yes; I have a few things I would like to ask him with reference to this--I'm not sure that we identified his notes and I believe we ought to do that.

You were reading from or referring to a memorandum that you made when, Mr. Sims?

Mr. SIMS. In regards to the President's assassination and the killing of Officer Tippit.

Mr. STERN. When did you make the memorandum?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know--it was shortly after the 24th.

Mr. STERN. Within 3 or 4 days?

Mr. SIMS. The same week--yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And you made it with your partner, Officer Boyd, the two of you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. You worked it out together?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Let the record show that this is a memorandum that appears as Commission Document 81-B, at pages 234 through 240. Was this memorandum made from notes that you noted at various times as the things occurred?

Mr. SIMS. Notes and memory.

Mr. STERN. They were made from your notes and memory?

Mr. SIMS. From my notes and memory.

Mr. STERN. And those notes were destroyed when the memorandum was prepared?

Mr. SIMS. Mr. Boyd may have his--I don't have mine.

Mr. STERN. You don't have your notes?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't have mine.

Mr. STERN. The memorandum quotes a number of times--a very specific figure--is this because you had some record of these times?

Mr. SIMS. We keep records of the time that things happen.

Mr. STERN. To the nearest minutes?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. STERN. And that's why you can be so precise in your memorandum?

Mr. SIMS. That's right.

Mr. STERN. The information you gave us a little earlier describing the two police and the jail clerk that were in the first two lineups, your statement there was based upon notes that you brought here with you; is that right?

Mr. SIMS. You mean their descriptions?

Mr. STERN. Yes; their descriptions.

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I got the descriptions after I was notified to be over here.

Mr. STERN. Do you know these individuals?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know them.

Mr. STERN. And these descriptions are accurate?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know about the weight. I got this off of their descriptions we have up there in the ID bureau in the personnel file--that weight, I believe, Perry's--I just guessed at the weight.

Mr. STERN. Do you have the same descriptions available for the two city prisoners?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I have those.

Mr. STERN. Would you tell us what those are?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. Richard Walter Borchgardt, he is 23 years of age, 5' 9", 161 pounds, blue eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion.

Ellis Carl Brazel [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l, he's 22 years of age, 5' 10", 169 pounds. Now, this weight could be one way or the other because this was at the time that they were arrested when they got this description.

Mr. STERN. This information was obtained from police records?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. He has green eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion.

Mr. STERN. As far as you now remember, does it accurately describe the two?

Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say. I know it was what we had in our identification jacket--these are their descriptions.

Mr. STERN. But you have no independent recollection now of their description?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. At page 3 of your memorandum, in describing events at the School Book Depository, the memorandum states, and this occurred just after Lieutenant Day picked up the rifle and dusted it for fingerprints--the memorandum states: "Some man then called Captain Fritz, and he walked over to where the man was. This man gave Captain Fritz the name of Lee Harvey Oswald and his home address in Irving, Tex."

Would you give me something more about that--how Oswald's name came up and in what context the name was given?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; this man, I believe, was some supervisor there at the store, and he gave Captain Fritz Oswald's name and address.

Mr. STERN. Do you know why he gave it to him? In what connection he gave it to him?

Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive about this, but I believe that Oswald was missing.

Mr. STERN. I see.

Mr. SIMS. In other words, most of the employees returned back to their jobs after the assassination.

Mr. STERN. Do you know whether any other employees were missing?

Mr. SIMS. No; I don't.

Mr. STERN. But as far as you know, that was the only name mentioned? Mentioned by the supervisor at the Book Depository?

Mr. SIMS. As far as I know; yes.

Mr. STERN. Now, the search in which you participated of Oswald at 4:05 on Friday, just before the first showup--you have told us that either you or Mr. Boyd found five live rounds of .38 caliber pistol shells, and a bus transfer slip, and an identification bracelet, according to your memorandum--Oswald took his ring off and gave it to you?

Mr. SIMS. That's right.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall that?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Do you remember anything else that was found on Oswald at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember anything else.

Mr. STERN. A wallet or identification card?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that had been taken off of him.

Mr. STERN. That had been taken off of him upon his arrest at the time of his arrest?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know when, but he didn't have it on.

Mr. STERN. Did you say anything to him at that time about the ownership of these things, about the ownership of the pistol shells--cartridges--did you comment on that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about it?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; there was no comment at all.

Mr. STERN. Or on the bus transfer slip?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he was asked something about it--I don't remember what I asked or what he said.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Sims, what was your impression of Oswald during Friday and Saturday, what kind of man did he seem to you--what was his demeanor like, what impression did you get about him and the way he was conducting himself?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he conducted himself, I believe, better than anyone I have ever seen during interrogation. He was calm and wasn't nervous.

Mr. STERN. He knew what questions he wanted to answer and what questions he didn't?

Mr. SIMS. He had the answers ready when you got through with the questions.

Mr. STERN. Did he complain at any point about his treatment during the course of the day?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I asked him if he wanted a cigarette, and I asked him if he wanted a drink of water or to go to the rest room and things of that nature, and I don't believe he ever accepted any of them.

Mr. STERN. But he was never complaining about his treatment?

Mr. SIMS. Oh, he complained two or three times--I don't know what it was about--about not having a lawyer or something. He said he wanted a lawyer, and things of that nature.

Mr. STERN. But not about his physical treatment?

Mr. SIMS. No; I believe he told us that--he was talking about his eye, and he told us that he deserved to get hit in the eye--I believe he said he deserved being hit in the eye.

Mr. STERN. Why was that?

Mr. SIMS. Because the officer had a right to do that--I believe that's what he told us.

Mr. STERN. What about obtaining a lawyer, what did he say about that?

Mr. SIMS. He said he wanted to obtain a lawyer. He named some lawyer up in New York.

Mr. STERN. He said that to you or to Captain Fritz in your presence?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I heard it--I don't know whether he said it to me--whether he told it to Captain Fritz or he may have told it to me.

Mr. STERN. What was the response from the police officer in charge at any time he mentioned getting a lawyer?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know what it was. I believe he used the telephone.

Mr. STERN. Did he seem tired to you in the course of the interrogations? Or showups?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. By the time of your last contact with him, a little after 12 that night, was he still in possession of his--have all his wits about him?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Would you still describe him the way you did before?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he was still alert--quick.

Mr. STERN. Calm?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Could you describe the conditions in the corridor and other areas around Captain Fritz' office and the room in which the interrogations were taking place? During the day Friday and Saturday.

Mr. SIMS. Well, of course, our office--Captain Fritz' office was crowded.

Mr. STERN. With officials?

Mr. SIMS. Official FBI, Secret Service, and Government officials and city officials--Texas Rangers and State officials.

Mr. STERN. Was this making interrogation more difficult?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know if it would or not. A number was in Captain Fritz' office during the interrogation--I believe during all of the interrogations.

Mr. STERN. Were the interrogations conducted so that one person asked all the questions, or were several people asking questions during the course of the same interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. Several people conducted the interrogation. Of course, there wasn't two or three speaking at one time--one of them would speak to him and more or less ask him questions.

Mr. STERN. How about the conditions outside the offices, in the corridor, as to people who were not officials?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it was a problem getting through. It was crowded.

Mr. STERN. Because of the----

Mr. SIMS. Photographers and newsmen.

Mr. STERN. Were there television cameras in the corridor at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Do you know when they were brought in, were you present when they were installed?

Mr. SIMS. No; I don't know when they were installed.

Mr. STERN. As I understand it, you had to bring Oswald through part of this crowd of newspapermen to get him to the interrogation room, when you brought him to and from?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the interrogation room was all in room 317, but when we would have to go through the crowd would be to take him to a showup, and the next day when we would bring him from the jail to Captain Fritz' office, it would be a matter of 20 or 30 feet there in the hall.

Mr. STERN. And in the course of those trips through the crowd, would people try to ask him questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And tried to get him to make statements on the microphone?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; they would.

Mr. STERN. Would he respond--do you recall--ever?

Mr. SIMS. Sometimes he would and sometimes he wouldn't.

Mr. STERN. Did this have any effect on him, did it seem to irritate him in any way, or did he also take this calmly?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't notice anything different.

Mr. STERN. No noticeable difference?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Would you describe his demeanor on Saturday as being the same as it was on Friday, was he still calm and in complete self-control?

Mr. SIMS. I was not around him a lot Saturday, I don't believe, but he still was calm and alert and everything.

Mr. STERN. How about his demeanor at the press conference Friday night when he was taken down to the showup room to meet the press?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he was--during the press interview--he was pretty snappy. He made some quick answers--I don't know what all it involved--he denied knowledge of the President's assassination, I believe, and he denied knowledge of killing Officer Tippit.

Mr. STERN. And he was snappy and arrogant and hostile?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; a form of arrogance, yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. But was he harassed by this or was he still calm and in control?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he had control of himself; yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. So that his snappiness was, would you say, his way of expressing his feelings?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know--I don't know, but he was snappy at that time--at that press interview.

Mr. STERN. That's all. Thank you.

That's all I have, Mr. Ball.

I believe Mr. Ely has a question or two.

Mr. ELY. There's one thing maybe you can help us clear up now. You took--I'm referring to late Friday night or let's say early Saturday morning.

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. ELY. You took Oswald up to the jail office on the fourth floor--about what time?

Mr. SIMS. I took him up to the jail office approximately 12:20.

Mr. ELY. And is that the last time you saw him before going home?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; and we turned him over to the jailers up there on the fourth floor at 12:23.

Mr. ELY. And about what time did you leave to go home for the night?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I believe--I'm not positive about this, but I believe that night Boyd and I worked later than the other officers did.

Mr. ELY. Would you have any knowledge as to whether Oswald was checked out of the jail again after 12:23?

Mr. SIMS. Not to my knowledge. He was checked out later on in the day.

Mr. ELY. Right, but I'm speaking of now of sometime around 12:30 again--a quarter of 1 or something like that--you wouldn't know anything about that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't know about that, but I checked him out later on that day. I don't know what time it was. I checked him out at 12:25 a.m.--I believe that's 10:25 a.m. is when I checked him out on the 23d.

Mr. ELY. That's all I have, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. We have been attaching these as exhibits just for illustration, and do you mind if we mark it and make it part of your deposition?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that will be fine.

Mr. BALL. All right. That will be Exhibit A of this deposition.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Sims Exhibit A," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. That is the written report you made to the police department of the events of the investigation on Friday, November 22, and Saturday, November 23?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and the day of Oswald's murder on the 24th.

Mr. BALL. That was the 24th?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you can read it if you wish and make any changes you wish and sign it, or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the Commission as you have here testified as she has taken it down.

Do you have any preference on that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Fine. That will be all right. Thanks a lot.

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M. SIMS RESUMED

The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SIMS. I do.

Mr. BELIN. You are Detective Richard M. Sims?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Sims, the day before yesterday you gave testimony in front of or before Joseph A. Ball?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At that time the matter came up concerning cartridge case hulls that were found on the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963. Do you remember that he asked about those?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Just for continuity of the record, would you tell us just how you came to see those hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I, my partner, were on the seventh floor, and someone called us to the sixth floor and said the hulls had been found.

So we took the freight elevator, I believe, or the stairs, and went to the sixth floor. Went to the southeast corner and three hulls were laying there by the window on the floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you pick up the hulls at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. SIMS. Waited for the arrival of Lieutenant Day with the crime lab to take pictures of the scene.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who came with Lieutenant Day, if you can remember?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. I believe it was Studebaker. I am not positive about that.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch that area up until the time the pictures were taken?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't stay there all the time.

Mr. BELIN. After the pictures were taken, what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. I was over there, I believe, when they finished up with the pictures, and I picked the three hulls up and laid them on what I believed to be a box of books there near the window, and Lieutenant Day dusted them for fingerprints.

Mr. BELIN. Then when your testimony was taken, did you specifically remember what you did with those hulls?

Mr. SIMS. I didn't remember who brought the hulls to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Since that time have you had an opportunity to refresh your recollection as to what happened to the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I talked to Captain Fritz and E. L. Boyd, my partner, and refreshed my memory.

Mr. BELIN. What was said, and what do you now say happened?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz told me to get the hulls after Lieutenant Day finished with them and to take possession of them.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. SIMS. I did that.

Mr. BELIN. How did you take possession of them?

Mr. SIMS. I placed them in an envelope and put them in my coat pocket.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember which pocket?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with them?

Mr. SIMS. When we got to the city hall, I gave them to Captain Fritz in his office.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time that was, possibly?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they took my notes the other day. I couldn't say. Whenever we arrived back at the city hall, they have what time that was.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the occasion was of your going down to the city hall there? Is that why you happened to go down to the city hall that afternoon?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we were going to get started on Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on your way down there to investigate whether or not he had any record?

Mr. SIMS. I didn't know what he had at the time. I don't remember. I was driving, and captain, we stopped at the sheriff's office for a few minutes, and then went directly from there to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Why were you going to get started on Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know. Captain Fritz said go to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you that they were going to get started on Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. No. He said go to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. And that is what you did?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to the city hall, did you go directly to Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got there, was anyone inside?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Who was there?

Mr. SIMS. His office was full of people.

Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Oswald one of them?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. In Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. No. He was, I believe, now in the interrogation room. I am not positive. He wasn't in Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with that envelope when you got to Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. I laid it on his desk and told him there was the hulls, or either gave it to him.

Mr. BELIN. You don't remember which one?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now what caused you to remember now what you actually did with the hulls? I mean, what refreshed your recollection as to that?

Mr. SIMS. Talked to Captain Fritz, and I remember we was going over to where the rifle, someone had found the rifle in the meantime, and we was walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I went over to where the rifle was found, and went back later to where the hulls were.

Mr. BELIN. Were the hulls still in the location you left them for being dusted for fingerprints?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were still taking pictures.

Mr. BELIN. Were they still taking pictures, or dusting them?

Mr. SIMS. I hadn't picked them up. They were still, as far as I can remember, taking pictures, because Captain Fritz left two officers to preserve the scene.

Mr. BELIN. When you got back, what did you do after they got through with the pictures?

Mr. SIMS. When he got through with the scenery I picked the hulls up.

Mr. BELIN. Was it then that he dusted them, or what?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, did Captain Fritz tell you that this is what you did, or Boyd tell you?

Mr. SIMS. No, I remembered the other day when I testified I wasn't too sure who brought them down, and then after I talked to Captain Fritz and Boyd, I remembered definitely we were walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls, so I did that.

Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz tell you, or the other, Day, that you were the one that brought the hulls, or did you independently remember?

Mr. SIMS. I remembered putting them in my coat pocket.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Detective Sims, just so that I can have a complete understanding of the process by which you refreshed your recollection, you talked to Captain Fritz about this after you testified here on Monday?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say and what did you say, if you remember?

Mr. SIMS. I told him I couldn't remember for sure about who brought the hulls up there to his office or what happened to the hulls, and then I talked to him.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say?

Mr. SIMS. He said, "Well, remember I told you to get the hulls and bring them to the office."

And I talked to Boyd, my partner, and he said that Captain Fritz had said that, too, so I remembered exactly about where I was when he told me this.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, Captain Fritz told you on Monday, that back on November 22, he had told you to get the hulls? Is that what Captain Fritz told you on this past Monday?

Mr. SIMS. No, not the past Monday. Now this was----

Mr. BELIN. Well, today is Wednesday. Could it have been on Tuesday, or Monday?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if it was yesterday or Monday.

Mr. BELIN. Was it either late Monday, April 6, or Tuesday, April 7?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. That Captain Fritz told you that back on November 22, he had told you to get the hulls and bring them down?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you also discussed this with Detective Boyd either on April 6 or 7?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, after they told you this, what is the fact as to whether you then do or do not independently remember actually putting these shells in an envelope?

Mr. SIMS. I do, yes, sir; I remember putting them in an envelope.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you now independently remember putting that envelope in your pocket?

Mr. SIMS. I do, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz tell you that he saw you put them in your pocket?

Mr. SIMS. No; he didn't say anything about the envelope or pocket. I remember he told me to be sure and get the hulls.

Mr. BELIN. What about Boyd, did he say anything about an envelope? Or pocket?

Mr. SIMS. I don't believe he did, no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color envelope it was?

Mr. SIMS. I believe it was a brown, something brown envelope.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a brown manilla envelope on top of the desk here?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how big an envelope it was?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. We have two different sizes, and I don't remember what size.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember from whom you got the envelope?

Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Day had it. When he goes to a scene, he has envelopes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lieutenant Day or anyone else see you put that envelope in your pocket?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he saw me put the envelope in my pocket, but he was there when I took possession of the hulls.

Mr. BELIN. He was?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I am not sure, I don't know if the other crime lab officer was present or not. That would be Studebaker, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Where were these hulls when you last saw them, or saw the envelope in which they were?

Mr. SIMS. In Captain Fritz' office, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Were they just laying on his desk, or in his physical possession?

Mr. SIMS. In this envelope.

Mr. BELIN. Was the envelope on his desk?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if I actually gave them to him or put them there on the desk in front of him.

Mr. BELIN. But he was there when you left there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And that is the last time you saw them?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not you ever initialed the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if I initialed the hulls or not.

Mr. BELIN. If you would have initialed the hulls, what initials would you have used?

Mr. SIMS. As a rule, RMS.

Mr. BELIN. RMS?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; but I believe I initialed the hulls or the envelope that I put them in.

Mr. BELIN. Would you have initialed the outside or the inside of the hull? By that, do you understand what I mean?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it all depends. I would initial the outside of the hulls, I imagine, or put a mark directly inside of the hull.

Mr. BELIN. Either on the outside or directly inside the top part of the hull?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the end.

Mr. BELIN. On the end of the hull?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, the spent end.

Mr. BELIN. The spent end?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; but I do definitely remember him telling me about be sure and get the hulls.

Mr. BELIN. You definitely remember getting the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; sure do.

Mr. BELIN. Have you and I ever talked before you walked through the door?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BELIN. As soon as you walked through the door, I had you raise your right hand and you started testifying, is that correct?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read this deposition, or are you going to sign the other deposition?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; just go ahead.

Mr. BELIN. Ship it on in?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD S. STOVALL

The testimony of Richard S. Stovall was taken at 11 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Would you please stand up, Mr. Stovall, and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. STOVALL. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you please state your name for the record?

Mr. STOVALL. Richard S. Stovall.

Mr. BALL. And what is your address, please?

Mr. STOVALL. 3211 Grayson Drive, Dallas.

Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?

Mr. STOVALL. Detective with the Homicide Bureau, City Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. STOVALL. Approximately 10 years--it will be 10 years this May.

Mr. BALL. Now, the Commission has asked us to ask every witness to tell us about where he was born and his education and what he has done, because they are unable to see you and they would like to know something about you.

Can you tell me that, please?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, I was born here in Dallas in 1928. I was born in a frame house over here on West Page--329 West Page. I went to grade school at Winnetka Elementary School and I attended W. E. Greiner Junior High School over here on South Edgefield. I went to high school at Sunset High out on Jefferson Boulevard. After I left high school, I went to the Navy for 2 years, which was just after World War II and I quit high school, by the way, and after I got out of the Navy I came back to summer school Tech and finished.

After that, I went to work for the post office. After a few other jobs I had been with for just a short period of time--I went to work at the post office and I worked there for them for approximately 5 years, I believe; I think it was from 1949 to 1954, and in 1954 I quit the post office and went to the Police Department and I have been there since then.

Mr. BALL. You are a detective, are you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You work in plain clothes?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in this particular department?

Mr. STOVALL. I have been in this department since approximately August 15, 1962--about 18 months, I guess.

Mr. BALL. What do you call your department of the Detective Bureau?

Mr. STOVALL. It's Homicide-Robbery Bureau.

Mr. BALL. Do you work under Captain Fritz?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, had you been assigned a special duty, in view of the President's visit to Dallas?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; I had--after I got to work.

Mr. BALL. At what time was that?

Mr. STOVALL. It was around 2 o'clock--I was watching television that morning and heard the deal on television.

Mr. BALL. You were not on duty at the time the President was shot?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You went to work at 2 o'clock?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, I was scheduled to go to work at 4 that day, I believe, but as soon as I heard that I got cleaned up and got ready for work and went on in.

Mr. BALL. Were you given an assignment as soon as you got down there?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I wasn't--as soon as I got there.

I got there and one of my partners, G. F. Rose, got there about the same time. We were talking to a witness that had seen all the people standing out there--he didn't actually see anything, so we didn't even take an affidavit from him because he didn't see anything.

While talking to him, the officers brought Lee Harvey Oswald into the Homicide Bureau and put him into an interrogation room we have there at the bureau. After we finished talking to this witness, we went back there and talked to him briefly.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said to him and what he said to you?

Mr. STOVALL. I don't recall exactly--I went in and asked him for his identification, asked him who he was and he said his name was Lee Oswald, as well as I remember. Rose and I were both in there at the time. He had his billfold and in it he had the identification of "A. Hidell," which was on a selective service card, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] H-i-d-e-l-l, isn't it?

Mr. STOVALL. I'm not positive on that--I believe it was [spelling] H-i-d-e-l-l, I'm not sure.

And he also had identification of Lee Harvey Oswald, and I believe that was on a Social Security card and at that time Captain Fritz opened the door to the office there and sent Rose and I to go out to this address in Irving at 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving.

That was--I don't know where the Captain got the address, but it was an address where he was supposed to be staying part of the time.

Mr. BALL. The captain had you get another man to go with you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; we got J. P. Adamcik to go with us.

Mr. BALL. Is he a detective?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; he is.

Mr. BALL. And you did that, did you, you drove out there to Irving?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The three of you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; the three of us--we went out to the location and parked, oh, a block or half block from the house. We were supposed to meet some county officers out there.

Mr. BALL. Why were you to meet the county officers out there?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, Irving is out of our jurisdiction, actually, we had to either have the Irving police or the county officers with us.

Mr. BALL. Would that be within the jurisdiction of the sheriff's office?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you meet some county officers there?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; they arrived about 30 to 45 minutes after we did--after we got out there; yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you wait for them?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you wait for them?

Mr. STOVALL. This was about one-half a block or a block from the house address.

Mr. BALL. Had you arranged to meet the county officers at this spot?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, yes, no, sir; we hadn't. We told them we were down the street about half a block. Of course when they came out there they could see us parked in the car down the street.

Mr. BALL. And what county officers did you meet out there?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, there was Harry Weatherford and the other two--one name was Oxford, and I don't recall the other one's name.

Mr. BALL. How about Walthers--does Buddy Walthers sound like it?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was the third one.

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And then after you met them, what did you do?

Mr. STOVALL. We went on down to them and drove up in front of the house and parked and got out and walked up to the front door and Adamcik and two of the officers went to the back and Rose and I went, and the other officers went to the front door and we knocked on the door, we could see some people inside the house and we could see through the front door, the door was open and the television was playing and Ruth Paine came to the door and identified herself to us. She said, "Yes; you are here about this mess that's on television."

Mr. BALL. What did you tell her about that?

Mr. STOVALL. At that time we told her that we wanted to search the house. We explained to her that we did not have a search warrant but if she wanted us to get one we would, and she said, "That won't be necessary"--for us to come right on in, so we went on in the house and started to search out the house, and the part of the house that I searched was the front bedroom where Marina Oswald was staying. There are quite a few items on the list of property I have--I believe you have a copy of it. There are two that were taken out of that bedroom there--a bunch of camera equipment, for one thing.

Mr. BALL. Now, I want to go backward at the moment--have you identified that property from your list, and can you tell me what was the division of labor there between you officers when you were permitted to search the house, you went into the bedroom; who went with you?

Mr. STOVALL. I don't believe there was anybody went with me at the time I went in. I heard--I think Rose started to the back bedroom, which would be Ruth Paine's bedroom and Ruth Paine was standing there talking to him--I could hear her talking to him and she told him that Marina suggested that he look out into the garage and so they looked and they were out of my sight then.

Mr. BALL. You heard Ruth say to Rose that Marina had suggested he look in the garage?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Ruth Paine tell him why Mariana had made that suggestion--what her reasons for it were?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. So, you think that Rose went to the garage?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did Adamcik do?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, Adamcik was out in the back. Now, before I went into the bedroom, I went to the back door and opened it and Adamcik and the two county officers came inside, but where Adamcik went, I couldn't tell you for sure. I know that he looked through some of the stuff in what I would call the den, which is adjoining the kitchen there.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Ball and the Witness Stovall off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Getting back on the record.

Mr. STOVALL. Shortly after that, Rose came back in carrying this blanket, as well as I remember, it was tied at one end and the other end was open.

Mr. BALL. It was tied with what kind of material?

Mr. STOVALL. It was tied with a white cord, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. A white what?

Mr. STOVALL. A white twine--it was thicker than a kite twine that you see or use on kites--more like this they use for wrapping large packages and tying them and he showed me that end, of course, he told me----

Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?

Mr. STOVALL. He told me that when he went to the garage, Marina had pointed to the blanket there and she said something to Ruth Paine and Ruth Paine told him that that was where Lee kept his rifle.

Mr. BALL. And the search that you made was in Marina's bedroom?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you have a list of the articles that were taken from Marina's bedroom?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, I do. I've got a list of all the articles we took from the house.

Mr. BALL. Give me that list first.

Mr. STOVALL. [Witness handed list to Counsel Ball.]

Mr. BALL. This list was made up by you men on the site or after you got back into the squad car?

Mr. STOVALL. No, this list was made the next day after we came back to work. This stuff was all put in boxes and put in the trunk of the car and put back in one of our interrogation rooms there.

Mr. BALL. And the next day you made a list of it, did you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, Rose and I and there were two FBI agents that went over the property at the same time. We initialed the property, that is, we went over it--this list here.

Mr. BALL. This list here?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, this list here is a list of the property taken.

Mr. BALL. A list of the property taken from Ruth Paine's home at 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.?

Mr. STOVALL. That was on the 22d.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d at about 3:30 p.m.?

Mr. STOVALL. 3:30 or 4--somewhere in there.

Mr. BALL. I'll go into that later, and this was the list that was made up by you and Rose and two FBI agents the next day at the police department?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I'd like to have this marked as "Stovall Exhibit A," and it consists of page 1 and page 2 for the deposition.

(Instrument referred to marked as "Stovall Exhibit No. A," for identification.)

Mr. STOVALL. As well as I remember, Detective Senkel, S-e-n-k-e-l [spelling] and Detective Potts were both there too.

Mr. BALL. Now, look at Exhibits A-1 and A-2 for the purpose of refreshing your memory, will you mark on that those items which you have found in Marina's bedroom--do you think you remember those?

Mr. STOVALL. [Marked instruments referred to.]

Mr. BALL. All right, after you check them, we will go over them and you can make an explanation for the record.

Mr. STOVALL. All right, fine.

Mr. BALL. Now, since we have gone back on the record--Exhibit A-1 and A-2 have been marked--have you marked those things which were taken from Marina's room?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You have an explanation to make as to certain of those, haven't you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is that?