Chapter XXXII: Part 32

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not the President's seat was raised or was it in its extreme low position at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would not know.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the President's practice was as to whether or not the seat would be raised?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know that, either.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the controls were on the Presidential automobile for raising or lowering the President's seat?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots were there in all?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Three.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total time which elapsed from the first shot to the last shot?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would say 5 to 6 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. And was there any distinguishable tempo to the shots?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; the first two came almost simultaneously, came one right after the other, there was a slight hesitation, then the third one.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was your reaction as to the source of the shots, if you had one?

Mr. O'DONNELL. My reaction in part is reconstruction--is that they came from the right rear. That would be my best judgment.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any reaction by any of the other people around in any specific direction?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The agents all turned to the rear. I would think, watching the reaction of the President when the shot--the first shot hit--that it would be automatic it would have to have come from the rear. I think any experienced agent would make that assumption immediately.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the reaction of the agents which you have referred to as coming from the rear, to the right rear or to the left rear?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The reaction I note would be right rear. And, again, looking at the manner of the President's movement, I would think you would have to feel the thrust of the shot was from the right rear.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was there about the President's movement which leads you to that conclusion?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He was leaning out waving. He may have just been withdrawing his hand. And the shot hit him, and threw him to the left. He slumped on Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to determine a reaction on that slumping movement, as to whether it was the first, the second, or the third shot?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It was not the third shot. Whether it was the first or second, I would not know.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it could have been the second shot?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; I do. If I had to pick one of the two, I think it might have been the second shot. It seemed to be--but, again, it is a foggy recollection--it seemed to have been that his movement coincided--with such a slight difference of time that is just guesswork.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction of Governor Connally in the car?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I saw the Governor turn toward the President. The President, in that period of time, had been--they were one right behind the other. And the only reason I would even notice it was when the President had slumped to the left, the Governor then turned, and he was in my view. Otherwise, he would not have been. But the President slumped over, and, therefore, the Governor just turned and I could see him. I had no knowledge that he had been hit at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you get the first knowledge that he had been hit?

Mr. O'DONNELL. When the third shot came. The President was hit. The motorcade accelerated. And one of the agents said, "The Governor has been hit, too."

Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time that President Kennedy shifted to the left, then, could you see the Governor at all from your position?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Depending on how each one moved, normally, no. The President was directly behind the Governor. But if the President was over to the right waving, then you could see the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. On the President's left when the Governor----

Mr. O'DONNELL. If the President was all the way to the right, the Governor, who was in front of him, would be visible to us. If they were both sitting, they were not. But they did confer back and forth. So the Governor was visible upon occasion. But when he turned around, it was really the first time I had been able to see him clearly.

Mr. SPECTER. At a time, though, when the President was on the extreme right-hand side, waving, would the Governor then have been visible on the President's left or on his right?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He would be on his left.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the jump seat situated, if you know, to the precise front of the President, to the right, to the left, or what?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. What reaction did you observe, if any, as to Mrs. Kennedy during the shots?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he slumped on her. She appeared to be immediately aware that something had happened. She turned toward him. And then the third shot hit. Obviously, she then knew what happened. She turned, looking at the backup car. Meanwhile Agent Hill had gotten off the car and started running up. She was clambering toward the back, and reached his hand, and he was on the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reactions in the President's car other than those which you have now testified about?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. At what point did the motorcade accelerate?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It accelerated, I would think, right about at the time that Agent Hill grabbed onto the back of the car, which would be just a few seconds after the last shot.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what speed did the motorcade proceed en route to the hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Very rapidly. I would guess between 60 and 70 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. About how long did it take for the motorcade to get to the hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would guess 5 to 10 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. How far behind the President's car was the followup car in which you were riding at the time the President's car arrived at the hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Right behind it, 5 or 6 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. What occurred at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We got out of the car. David Powers got out of the car, went over to the President, and was not visible to me, and was crying, he laid on him. And then they came and took the President--that was the first time I really realized that Governor Connally had been badly hurt, as they also carried Governor Connally out.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Mrs. Kennedy doing at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I believe somebody had helped her out and taken her into the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there a coat over President Kennedy at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. When they took him out, I was standing maybe 3 or 4 feet behind him. There was a wall of people between myself. I didn't see him, nor did I look.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who lifted the President out of the car?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who lifted the Governor out of the car?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. By what means were they taken away from the vicinity of the car?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I think they had stretchers. As I say, I was far enough back at that moment that they were milling around, and so many people between my vision and what they were doing, I did not see. I could not be accurate on that.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, Mr. O'Donnell?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I went into the hospital and went right to Mrs. Kennedy. She was seated right outside the room where they had placed the President. I would say she was in a total daze, and as yet not knowing whether there was any hope or not.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities in the period of time immediately following that moment?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I stayed with her for a few minutes, and then no one seemed to be able to get any conclusive answer as to the President's condition. As I said, I had seen the shots so clearly, I had a pretty clear view. The first thing I had done--I asked them to get a priest, which they did immediately. I went into the room. There were four or five doctors there. Dr. Burkley I think was there. And I said, "I think we better get a definite answer one way or another--is there any hope at all?" I was unable to get a conclusive answer. But I think I got the answer I needed.

I don't know how Mrs. Kennedy was finally told. I may have told her about at that moment. Between the time and the time I knew definitely, I went to see the Vice President.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was with him at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Johnson was with him and an agent who at the time I did not know. I believe it is Youngblood.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was Vice President Johnson?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He was in a room across the hall. You had to go directly across what would probably be the reception room, which was open to the public, and into another room. And I recollect I turned to my right, and he was over more or less in the corner with a screen. He was standing on the right, Mrs. Johnson, I believe, was sitting, the agent was standing at the door.

Mr. SPECTER. And what conversations, if any, did you have with then-Vice President Johnson?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I told him it looked very, very serious, and in my opinion that it was probably fatal. I hadn't been able to get a totally definite answer, but that I would let him know as soon as it was definite--but it looked pretty black.

I then left him. I don't recollect that he even commented. I left him and went back to Mrs. Kennedy, and within a very few minutes they confirmed the fact that the President was dead.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?

Mr. O'DONNELL. As soon as I was assured that he was dead, and it was definite, I went back to the Vice President and informed him the President was dead, and that in my opinion he ought to get out of there as fast as he could. We had a general discussion. The President's first words to me were that we must look upon this in a sense that it might be a conspiracy of some nature, and that all security must be taken, and that we then discussed whether one of the possible movements might be to move the Presidential aircraft from Love Field to Carswell, where no route of departure could be laid out, and where there would be military security.

We discussed that. It was my opinion that his best movement was to move directly to Love Field. In fact, the routes would not be available anyway, because this was not a schedule--the departure from the hospital to the field would not be covered, if that were a possibility. And that it would be much better if he got to the field immediately, where he was under security and got aboard one of the aircraft.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any discussion about his taking the presidential plane, AF-1, as opposed to AF-2?

Mr. O'DONNELL. There was not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Vice President Johnson look to you in any way for a recommendation on his subsequent plans in terms of your being then in charge of the presidential party?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It was my impression that he did, that he, with the President gone--that he felt I was--had to assume a position of responsibility, both with regard to Mrs. Kennedy and as to himself. He asked me, as I recall--he asked me for my advice as to his departure and used the words, "I am in your hands now," at some point in the conversation.

But I did get the impression that he wanted official--that isn't the proper word--but that his movements should be approved by all concerned.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now related all the conversation you had at that time with then-Vice President Johnson?

Mr. O'DONNELL. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, then?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Next after I left the Vice President, I went back to Mrs. Kennedy. On the way through the lobby I noted the newspapermen were clamoring for information. I met Kilduff. He said, "Should we announce it?" And I said I think that is a decision that can only be made by the President "You better ask him." So that was the last I saw of Kilduff.

Mr. SPECTER. Who is Kilduff?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He is the assistant press secretary.

Mr. SPECTER. Malcolm Kilduff?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Malcolm Kilduff.

I then went back to Mrs. Kennedy, who was in a very understandably distraught condition. It was my opinion--I tried to in some way imply that she might leave and come with us, at least to get her out of that room. She was covered with blood.

Mr. SPECTER. Which room was she in then?

Mr. O'DONNELL. She was in the same room. She had not moved. She was sitting near the door.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the room where the President was treated by the Dallas doctors?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; there is a little corridor. There were swinging doors. He was inside the swing door. She was not in the presence of the body.

Mr. SPECTER. What was her response to you?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Her response to me was she would not leave her husband's body. At that point, I realized that she would not. The doctor had continually attempted to get her to take some form of sedation. And she had consistently refused, and told me she would not take anything, that she was going to stay with her husband.

I realized that she was going to stay with her husband, no matter what anybody did, and there was no possible way of in any way getting her to leave. And so, therefore, the only alternative I could see was that we move the President. It is an assumption I probably would have arrived at anyway, but I arrived at it in this manner.

So I went out and got hold of Dr. Burkley and General McHugh, and one of the agents, and Andy Berger, as I recall, and told them to get a casket, to bring it back, and Dr. Burkley would have the doctors prepare the body for removal, and that we would proceed to the airport and go to Washington.

This was done very rapidly, as I recollect. It seems to me it wasn't more than half an hour that they arrived with the casket. I remember just before they arrived I got Dave Powers and said there was a little room in the back that we ought to just take Mrs. Kennedy under some subterfuge, and talk to her in the room while we brought the casket in, because I thought that might be the final blow. And we did, and--but she knew what was going on. She came out and said, "No, I want to watch it all." And she stood in the doorway, and thanked us for our attempt at being compassionate.

And then they took it in, and put the body in the casket.

We were then all prepared to go. The agents told me the ambulance was ready, and they were prepared to move.

We--the casket was brought out about halfway, and a gentleman arrived who said that we would not be allowed to remove the body from the hospital until the necessary papers had been signed.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who he was?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recollect who he was. I think he was--maybe from the coroner's office. My assumption is he would be.

But he took this position. We asked--I don't recollect who transmitted the message--that they speed this up as much as possible, and give us some idea how long it took to accomplish this. And they went out into this other little room where there were some telephones, and proceeded to call whoever it was necessary to call to get this permission.

We waited about 10 or 15 minutes, and Dr. Burkley and General McHugh were in the room, and Mr. O'Brien at some time. I went out again and asked them if they had an answer, and nobody seemed to be able to answer the question as to how long it might take, and whether it was a week or an hour.

So I was getting more concerned about Mrs. Kennedy's state all the time--although she appeared composed, as she had from the beginning.

Then a gentleman did arrive who has later been identified for me as a Judge Brown, who was on the telephone calling someone. It had been my assumption that upon his arrival that he had the power to permit us to depart. Dr. Burkley was talking to him in a very agitated manner. And the gentleman was very calm and cool and collected. If my recollection is clear, he said something to the effect that as of now this was just a homicide case, and there were certain things that had to be carried out, one of which I interpreted as an autopsy.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was it, Mr. O'Donnell, if you recall, who said this was just another homicide case?

Mr. O'DONNELL. My feeling is it was Brown, but I really would not be--in the excitement of the moment, the discussion of the autopsy, the signing of a certificate from the hospital, and the treatment of this as a homicide case, I would not want to be unfair and misinterpret who might have said it.

My recollection is it was indicated to us that the President is dead, the hospital has to perform certain functions, and the law must be met, no matter who it is, at this moment. In my own mind, when they said autopsy, I realized we were talking not about hours, but perhaps even days, which was an impossible situation for Mrs. Kennedy.

I talked to Dr. Burkley, and had him suggest to them that they could have a doctor come with us, he could accompany the body at all times, and that we would bring him immediately to the Naval Hospital, and that they could perform whatever necessary chores, and there would be no separation physically from the hospital and the performance of their autopsy.

They refused to consider this.

I in my own mind determined that we had no alternative but to just depart. So I went back in the room. I told Mr. O'Brien, and whoever else was assembled there, that we were going to leave. I notified the Secret Service and General McHugh, and told them to get ready to depart. We went in and took the body out. Mrs. Kennedy stood right behind it, I think totally unaware of the problems that were then existing, so perhaps confused as to the speed with which we were attempting to depart.

We pushed the casket out through the hall. This first gentleman that had come in, who, I presume, was from the coroner's office, shouted very loudly, "You can't do that, you can't leave here now." Nobody paid any attention to him. We pushed out through another set of swinging doors. I remember a Catholic priest was between this and the doorway, and was praying. It was most disconcerting because we were concerned at all times that some moment they would say stop, and I hated to think what might happen to Mrs. Kennedy if she had to go back and go through this all over again. So we brushed them all aside and came out the same way we had come in, through the same doors.

There was an ambulance there. Andy Berger was seated in the driver's seat. Several agents were there. The body was put into the ambulance, Mrs. Kennedy got in with it. We climbed into a car alongside of it, and we took off for the airport. I told the agents if they would signal ahead, that there were agents at the airfield, and that as soon as we came through the gate, they were to close the gate and let nobody else in.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the gate at the airfield?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall approximately what time you left the hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I haven't the vaguest idea.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any idea how long it was after you arrived at the hospital that you left the hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I wouldn't--it was a couple of hours. But I wouldn't have any idea.

Mr. SPECTER. About how long did the trip take you from the hospital back to the airport?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I am guessing totally at time. I would think it seemed about 15 minutes. It wasn't a long period of time.

Mr. SPECTER. What occurred then?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The drive was uneventful. We went through the gate. We arrived at the Air Force--I didn't know whether it was 1 or 2, to be honest, until I saw the members of the crew. And they unloaded the casket. I remember they had a very, very difficult time getting it up, because of the narrowness of the ramp. It was very difficult for the Secret Service. It seemed at moments it might almost tumble; it was frightening.

We got on the plane. And the seats had been taken out on the left side, so they could lay the casket down. The casket was placed down. I told General McHugh to tell the pilot to take off.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not President Johnson had been sworn in at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. At that time I didn't know President Johnson was on the plane. I did not know whether he had been. Subsequently I realized he had not been.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any specific discussion, to your knowledge, or consideration, to your knowledge, of holding the Presidential plane until Mrs. Kennedy and President Kennedy's body arrived on that plane before departing for Washington?

Mr. O'DONNELL. There has been no discussion of that to my knowledge. Once the President--the Vice President left, I left him, I had not seen him again. I had been notified he had departed, I had been notified that he arrived, and that was the last I heard of it, until I got on the airplane.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, after arriving on the airplane?

Mr. O'DONNELL. As I say, I told General McHugh to have the plane take off, still all of us under the assumption or apprehension that at some moment we either might not be granted clearance to take off, or that the hospital may have in some way gotten the police to intercept us--the difficulty of that to Mrs. Kennedy was incalculable. I was in a highly desperate strait to get that airplane in the air and back to Washington. As I say, I told General McHugh to tell the pilot to take off.

There was a delay of 2 or 3 minutes, and nothing happened. So I headed up for the cockpit myself, and I ran into McHugh in the meantime who said that President Johnson was aboard, and that he had ordered the pilot to delay, to hold up until he was sworn in. That was the first I knew he was aboard.

I would like to correct that. I must have known he was aboard, because I am sure he must have greeted Mrs. Kennedy as she came aboard. And he and Mrs. Johnson. But I don't have a clear recollection of that in my own mind.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when President Johnson was sworn in?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I was.

Mr. SPECTER. After you arrived back on AF-1, what did you do between that time and the time the plane was airborne?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Johnson took Mrs. Kennedy into the President's room on _Air Force 1_. I remember she was reluctant to even go in there, but she persuaded her to. And----

Mr. SPECTER. Who was reluctant to go in?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Kennedy. And I went up, and the President and I carried on a conversation, which, again my recollections might be hazy--that it had been brought to his attention that I had asked for the plane to take off, and that there was some difference of opinion between him and me. He said to me that he had called the Attorney General, and that the Attorney General had indicated that it was, if not mandatory, at least preferable that he be sworn in prior to the aircraft taking off. I didn't describe what I saw as the problems. I realized it was an inevitable delay. So I don't believe I commented on it. I just listened to him. We sat there.

I went up and talked to the pilot, to make sure they didn't let anybody on the plane, or put the ramps down for anybody, except the judge, under any circumstances. About 10 or 15 minutes later the judge arrived and the swearing in occurred.

Mr. SPECTER. How soon after the swearing in was the plane airborne, if you recall?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It was almost immediate--as soon as he was sworn in, the plane taxied out and took off.

Mr. SPECTER. On the return flight to Washington, where did you sit?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I sat with Mrs. Kennedy almost all the way. We came back--Mr. Powers, Mr. O'Brien, and I stayed in the back compartment. And then Mrs. Kennedy and I--I sat down with her, we sat that way all the way back. The President called me up on one or two occasions and asked me to stay up in the cabin, wanted to talk to me, but I felt I had to stay with Mrs. Kennedy. So I sat with her the whole trip.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you talk about?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We reminisced.

Mr. SPECTER. Did she have anything to eat on the trip back?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I think we both had a drink. I tried to get her to take a good strong drink. I had not much luck.

Mr. SPECTER. She drank part but not all?

Mr. O'DONNELL. As I recollect, she just wanted to talk. She talked all the way.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do then after your arrival in Washington, D.C.? Or did you come back to Andrews Air Force Base?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We arrived at Andrews and meanwhile the Attorney General had been notified, the decision had been made that he would go to Bethesda.

Mr. SPECTER. Who made that decision, by the way?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. That the autopsy should be performed?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't think she knew anything about an autopsy. The question is where the body went. We didn't tell her there was to be an autopsy. And the choice was Walter Reed or Bethesda. He being a Navy man, she picked Bethesda.

Mr. SPECTER. She chose Bethesda, as between Bethesda and Walter Reed?

Mr. O'DONNELL. She did.

Mr. SPECTER. Who made the decision there would be an autopsy, if you know?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know who made the decision. I just think we all agreed--we arrived at Bethesda. The Attorney General was there. I think it was just our assumption that this was a necessary part.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you get from Andrews Air Force Base to Bethesda Naval Hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. By car.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time did you arrive at Andrews, if you recall?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't remember. It was dark. That is all I do recall.

Mr. SPECTER. About how long was the car trip from Andrews to Bethesda?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think 45 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do after your arrival at Bethesda?

Mr. O'DONNELL. When we arrived at Bethesda, we went immediately to some room, reception room, where the family was.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long did you stay there?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We stayed there, I would think, until 3 or 4 in the morning. We wanted to stay there until Mrs. Kennedy got back to the house.

We drove back to the White House with her.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you leave her at the White House?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think 4 or 5 in the morning.

Mr. SPECTER. After that, did you go home?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Who all was present with the family at Bethesda?

Mr. O'DONNELL. There was Mr. O'Brien, Mr. Powers--I don't recollect anybody else outside the family.

Mr. SPECTER. Who from the family was there?

Mr. O'DONNELL. As I remember, Jean Kennedy, the Attorney General and his wife, I think Pat and Eunice. There were some other people. Really there were two--there was one room inside, in which they were in, and there was one out in the reception.

Mr. SPECTER. What was on the balance of the itinerary in Texas after the planned luncheon at the Trade Mart at Dallas on November 22?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We were leaving Dallas and going to Austin, and Governor Connally had arranged one or two receptions, and then a large dinner in the evening, a fundraising dinner, and then the President was going to depart from there to the Vice President's ranch, and stay with them through Saturday, and then come back to Washington.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the estimated time of arrival at the LBJ Ranch about 10 p.m., on the evening of November 22?

Mr. O'DONNELL. That would be about right.

Mr. SPECTER. With the plan then being to depart for Washington on the 23d, Saturday?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's attitude, in a general way, about Presidential protection--that is, President Kennedy's attitude about Presidential protection, Mr. O'Donnell?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, his general attitude was that the Secret Service--that there was no protection available to a President of a democracy such as the United States from a demented person who was willing to risk his own life; that if someone wanted to kill a President of the United States, who in a sense wears two hats--he is the leader of a political party as well as our Chief Executive--and by the nature of our system must mingle with crowds, must ride through our cities, and must expose himself to the American people--that the Secret Service would not be, other than the protection that they provide by the screening processes prior to the actual carrying out of a political trip--would not be able to guarantee 100 percent protection, considering one has to mingle with crowds of 50,000 or 100,000 people, and mingle with them at handshaking distance.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever discussed the dangers inherent in a motorcade, for example, with the President?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Not specifically in a motorcade. I don't think the President's view was--very frankly, we had discussed this general subject. We used to go on trips, and sit around in the evening and this would come up.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's view expressed during those conversations?

Mr. O'DONNELL. His view was that a demented person who was willing to sacrifice his own life could take the President's life. And that if it were to happen, I think his general view was it would happen in a crowded situation. I don't think it entered his mind that it might happen in the fashion as of a motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. What was his reaction to that risk?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I think he felt that was a risk which one assuming the office of the Presidency of the United States inherited. It didn't disturb him at all.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the last conversation that you had with him on that general topic?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The last conversation I had with him on that general topic was the morning of the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did the conversation occur?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The conversation took place in his room, with Mrs. Kennedy and myself, perhaps a half hour before he left the Hotel Texas to depart for Carswell Air Force Base.

Mr. SPECTER. That was in Fort Worth?

Mr. O'DONNELL. That was in Fort Worth.

Mr. SPECTER. And tell us, as nearly as you can recollect, exactly what he said at that time, please.

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, as near as I can recollect he was commenting to his wife on the function of the Secret Service, and his interpretation of their role once the trip had commenced, in that their main function was to protect him from crowds, and to see that an unruly or sometimes an overexcited crowd did not generate into a riot, at which the President of the United States could be injured. But he said that if anybody really wanted to shoot the President of the United States, it was not a very difficult job--all one had to do was get a high building some day with a telescopic rifle, and there was nothing anybody could do to defend against such an attempt on the President's life.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Mrs. Kennedy's reaction to that philosophy?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I think--I think she had not quite thought of this at all. She certainly had not thought of it in this way. But I think the general tenor of the conversation was that she agreed that this was--in this democracy, this is inherent.

Mr. SPECTER. What had her reaction been to the trip to Texas up to that point?

Mr. O'DONNELL. She had enjoyed it. She had not been a girl who had loved campaigning. And I thought at the moment, at that very minute, that for the first time--the President and I were discussing a forthcoming trip to the west coast, and he had asked her if she would come, and she said she would be delighted to come, and she would like to go from now on.

The President was delighted. We were all delighted.

Mr. SPECTER. Had she been on any political trip before this trip to Texas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No; she had not been on a political trip with us for quite awhile.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the trip immediately prior to the one to Texas that she was last on, if you recall?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recall. I don't recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it during the 1960 campaign?

Mr. O'DONNELL. She was pregnant, as I recollect, during the 1960 campaign. She had been pregnant just prior to this. So that--and most of the other trips had been really the sort of thing that was difficult for Mrs. Kennedy to go on. But she had never evidenced to me quite as much interest in going on a--continuing to go on these trips, as she was after this.

Mr. SPECTER. Had she ever been to Texas prior to November 21, 1963?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Not to my recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. After the assassination, has she ever made any comment to you about that conversation which you had in the Hotel Texas in Fort Worth on the morning of November 22?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I have never dared bring that conversation up to Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. O'Donnell, do you have any knowledge, aside from the factors which you have set forth during your testimony today, concerning anyone involved in the shooting of the President?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I have no comment.

Mr. SPECTER. You say you have no knowledge?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I have no knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the President's Commission in any way in its job of investigating all factors relating to the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. One other detail, Mr. O'Donnell.

Did you have occasion to deal with an particular individuals from the city of Dallas itself during this trip, or in preparation for this trip?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. O'Donnell, under our practice, if you care to, we can make this transcript available to you to read and to sign.

Would you prefer that, or would you just as soon waive the signature, and have the transcript in its final form as it comes from the court reporter here?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would like to read it.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. We will make it available to you for reading and signature, sir. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE F. O'BRIEN

The testimony of Lawrence F. O'Brien was taken at 11 a.m., on May 26, 1964, at the White House Office, Washington, DC., by Mr. Francis W. H. Adams, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. ADAMS. Raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this deposition proceeding before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I do.

Mr. ADAMS. Mr. O'Brien, the purpose of this deposition is to get from you your knowledge of the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963.

I would like to start way back, if I may, at the point of the conception of the trip, the origin of the trip. How far back was that before November 22?

Mr. O'BRIEN. My recollection is the contemplation of the trip to Texas was back some, perhaps, months before the actual trip.

However, I should quickly add that many discussions took place about potential trips to all parts of the country at some future time, to some degree in the political context. The President, No. 1, enjoyed getting out to meet the people; and, secondly, over a period of time we had anticipated the President would travel rather extensively when the opportunity presented itself. But the difficulty in pinning anything like that down specifically in advance is the obvious difficulty of scheduling any travel by the President, because of the duties of the office and the obvious day to day changes in the problem.

Mr. ADAMS. But you, yourself, were concerned and involved in discussions looking towards this?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; Mr. O'Donnell was responsible for the handling of the specifics of trips. He would engage in discussions with the President and projections of possible trips of one sort or another. In his role as Appointments Secretary, of course, he was constantly discussing with the President invitations of all kinds that came across his desk.

The Vice President had expressed an interest for some time in a possible trip to Texas.

Mr. ADAMS. Had he expressed that interest to you?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall specifically. It became generally understood in our discussions that he was interested, the President was interested, Mr. O'Donnell was charged with the responsibility of maintaining a day to day relationship in this area.

Mr. ADAMS. At that time, what was your official title?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Special Assistant to the President for Congressional Relations.

Mr. ADAMS. Now----

Mr. O'BRIEN. A trip of this nature, as many trips within the United States, would involve the inclusion of Members of Congress, appropriate members of the delegation, and what-have-you. So that would be pretty much my involvement in any arrangements for a trip of this nature.

Mr. ADAMS. To put it another way, you did not yourself have the responsibility for the specific planning?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Not at all.

Mr. ADAMS. And were you involved in making--in the discussions which led to the final decision about this Texas trip?

Mr. O'BRIEN. There were some discussions that involved me as to the specific stops on the trip, because there immediately you would have the matter of the congressional districts that would be involved in the stops, and matters of that nature.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you happen to know how it came to pass that Mrs. Kennedy went along on that trip?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not. I think Mr. O'Donnell would be the proper person to direct that to.

Mr. ADAMS. Did you have anything to do with the security or protection arrangements for the President?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No.

Mr. ADAMS. Neither on that trip nor at any time?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No.

Mr. ADAMS. This didn't come within your duties at all?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, is it fair to say that the substantial purpose of this trip was political?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would not say--in my belief it was not the substantial purpose. An invitation that had been extended by the Congressman Albert Thomas' dinner committee, and I assume arrangements that were appropriate for that time for a dinner in Austin contributed to the decision on that particular time for this trip. This would be typical of the situation, as I recall it, where you knew there would be an occasion when the President would visit Texas.

He was interested in visiting Texas, as he was other sections of the country. And this sort of fell into line. It presented to some degree an opportunity to make the trip at that time.

He was particularly fond of Congressman Thomas. And he had had a close-working relationship with him in the Congress.

I, of course, became very well acquainted with Congressman Thomas, because of my role representing the White House with the Congress. And I am sure that was a contributing factor. He was most interested in attending this dinner to honor him.

Mr. ADAMS. I suppose it would be fair to say that almost any activity of the President is in some measure political.

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say that is perhaps true.

But he had been interested, also, in having an opportunity to visit the Space Center particularly. And he had watched the development of the space activity in Texas with great interest.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, going back to the time that you left Washington on that trip, did you leave with the President?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I did.

Mr. ADAMS. From the White House?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I did.

Mr. ADAMS. By helicopter?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

Mr. ADAMS. And what was the time--do you recall?

Mr. O'BRIEN. It was approximately forenoon, about 10:45, from the White House lawn, in the President's helicopter.

Mr. ADAMS. And where did you go in the helicopter?

Mr. O'BRIEN. We went to Andrews Field.

Mr. ADAMS. And did you go onboard _Air Force 1_?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I did.

Mr. ADAMS. And you went from there to Austin?

Mr. O'BRIEN. We went from there to San Antonio.

Mr. ADAMS. I am sorry. I misspoke myself. San Antonio?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

Mr. ADAMS. Arriving in San Antonio about when?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I think you would have to refer to the record on that.

Mr. ADAMS. Some time early afternoon? Some time in the afternoon of that day?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I remember it was, weatherwise, an uneventful trip. The weather was fine. There is no reason to suggest we didn't arrive at pretty much the established time.

Mr. ADAMS. Then, just briefly, what happened in San Antonio?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, there was a motorcade in San Antonio to the Aerospace Center for a ceremony. And, as I recall, the ceremony was relatively brief. The President spoke briefly. And then he inspected the installation.

The overall elapsed time I don't recall--perhaps an hour or an hour and a half.

And then we proceeded back to the airport for the trip to Fort Worth.

Mr. ADAMS. What happened in Fort Worth?

Mr. O'BRIEN. In Fort Worth, as I recall, at the airport there was--from the airport into the hotel in Fort Worth, it was rather a lengthy trip. It also involved crowds at various stops.

The hour--I am sorry I cannot recall the hour of arrival--but it was, as we say, an offbeat hour. It was rather surprising to have the interest shown crowdwise as we went in. It delayed the motorcade into the hotel and outside of the hotel there was a large crowd of people.

Mr. ADAMS. What was the reaction of that crowd? Was that a friendly group?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would describe it as friendly; yes.

Mr. ADAMS. Then what happened next, after you arrived at the hotel?

Mr. O'BRIEN. The President and his party checked into the hotel for the night. I do not recall any other official activity.

Mr. ADAMS. And what happened next?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, the following morning the President arose early to attend a breakfast. As I recall, it was a civic breakfast, sponsored by the local civic group or groups.

Mr. ADAMS. Did Mrs. Kennedy attend that, also, as you recall?

Mr. O'BRIEN. She arrived at the breakfast, as I recall, following the President. The President spoke at the breakfast, and received gifts, and Mrs. Kennedy received a gift. I recall one of the gifts to the President was a Stetson. I recall that he did not try it on, but he appreciated receiving it.

Following the breakfast, he then spoke to a large crowd in front of the hotel, in the parking area opposite the hotel. There had been indications of bad weather. There was some rain, and then the rain became intermittent.

Upon completing his speech in the parking area, he returned upstairs to await the normal departure time.

When that time arrived, I went downstairs ahead of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and the Secret Service were determining whether or not they would have the top up or down on the car, because there was still an occasional drop of rain. However, a few minutes elapsed, and it appeared the weather would stay good for the drive to the airport. So he left, to the best of my recollection--I feel sure of this--in an open car to the airport from the hotel.

Mr. ADAMS. While we are on that subject, just to digress for a moment, what was his attitude toward riding in open cars?

Mr. O'BRIEN. It was certainly his preference. He had always expressed a view that in our democracy a President should, whenever possible, be exposed to the people. And I think, also, he felt the people should be exposed to him. He always wanted to have the closest possible contact with people. And in that context his preference certainly at all times was an open car.

Mr. ADAMS. And these preferences were expressed to you personally?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Not in the context of this particular situation.

Mr. ADAMS. No; I mean through the years.

Mr. O'BRIEN. But certainly we were totally aware of his desires in that area. And this had, of course, been his position not only in the United States but in trips outside the country.

Mr. ADAMS. Did he have--did he ever happen to express any particular view to you about motorcades, in terms of security?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I cannot recall any discussion I had with him in that regard.

Mr. ADAMS. Generally speaking, what was his position as expressed to you about security?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I cannot recall any specific conversation in that area. There may have been. But certainly it was not of sufficient substance to be of any importance.

Mr. ADAMS. More specifically, did you ever discuss with him the possibility of assassination?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I did not.

Mr. ADAMS. Did you ever discuss it with Mrs. Kennedy?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I did not.

Mr. ADAMS. Well, I took you off the track there. We will come back to Fort Worth, now, if we may.

When we left we were discussing his concluding his talk and going out to the airport in Fort Worth.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; there were, as I recall it, some bands en route. There was a great deal of excitement, enthusiasm. The weather had cleared. And it was a thoroughly pleasant trip out to the airport. The President obviously enjoyed it.

When we arrived at _Air Force 1_, he commented that that certainly had been a very interesting and pleasant morning.

Mr. ADAMS. And you went with him on _Air Force 1_?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct.

Mr. ADAMS. To Dallas--arriving late in the morning?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would estimate our arrival time at Dallas perhaps around 11:45. I know that we anticipated the motorcade through the streets of Dallas at the noon hour.

Mr. ADAMS. Did you yourself have anything to do with the planning of that motorcade?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I did not.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you----

Mr. O'BRIEN. With the exception of insuring the inclusion in the motorcade of the Members of Congress and Senator Yarborough, that they be properly handled so that they would be included in open cars in the motorcade.

Mr. ADAMS. And it was part of your responsibility to see that--what cars they got into and all those arrangements?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would not say specifically that. They would have their car assignments. But for the most part, it was, if anything went wrong in the arrangements at some point, I would then be able to have a staff man correct it. So I would keep a close eye on the congressional people traveling with the President on a trip of that nature to be sure that they were well taken care of.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you know when the information about the precise route was released to the press?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not.

Mr. ADAMS. Was there any thought--I withdraw that one, and ask you this: Do you know how it came about that Dallas was chosen as one of the cities to visit?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall specifically, except that the size of the city, the concentration of population, would make it an obvious stop in Texas, if you were going to be in the State for 2 or 2-1/2 days. It is rather an obvious decision, that the Dallas area would be one of the stops.

Mr. ADAMS. As far as you know, there was never any consideration given to omitting Dallas?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not recall any.

Mr. ADAMS. Well, we are back now at Love Field. Would you tell us what happened there, as far as you observed it?

Mr. O'BRIEN. The President moved over to the fence, where a large crowd had gathered and shook the hands of several in the crowd, as the motorcade was awaiting his departure. All those in the motorcade proceeded to get into their cars. There was the usual amount of minor confusion--people hustling around to locate their car number, and I stood watching the President engaged in this activity, until he had gotten into his car, and a quick observation indicated to me that all those traveling with us had gotten into their cars.

I came very close, however, to being left at Love Field, because I delayed a little longer than I normally would, observing the scene, and, consequently, I had to make a little dash, myself, to hop into a car, to insure that I would travel into town.

Mr. ADAMS. When the President was greeting people along the fence there, was he accompanied by Mrs. Kennedy?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is my recollection.

Mr. ADAMS. And do you recall at that time what the Vice President and Mrs. Johnson were doing?

Mr. O'BRIEN. They were engaged in the same activity, as I recall it.

Mr. ADAMS. I think you said this was a large crowd.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; it appeared to be a large crowd. The difficulty in judging a crowd from the ground at an airport is obvious. But as we came down the steps of the plane, looking out over the crowd, I had the impression that it was a large crowd for an airport stop, considering the fact the President was about to travel through the heart of the city.

Mr. ADAMS. Was it a friendly crowd?

Mr. O'BRIEN. It appeared to be friendly.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, getting to the motorcade, what was its organization, as you recall it, in terms of what cars at what places?

Mr. O'BRIEN. As I recall it, following the usual police grouping in the front and sides, the President's car, Secret Service car, the Vice President's car, additional Secret Service car, wire service cars--I would think there probably were two--the VIP cars followed, and then following those cars, which was rather a long line of them, as I recall, were, I believe, one or two buses containing the press, traveling press.

Mr. ADAMS. When you refer to the VIP cars, those would include the Congressmen and the other gentlemen you referred to before?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. Senator Yarborough was in the car with the Vice President and Mrs. Johnson. The members of the congressional delegation traveling with us at that point were then in open cars--I would think there were perhaps four open cars to accommodate them.

Mr. ADAMS. Which one were you in?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I was in one of those open cars--specifically, I don't remember the order of the car, but I remember the passengers I joined. And as I pointed out, this was rather a quick hop into the car that I made at that point. Congressman Mahon was in the front seat with the driver. Congressman Rogers of Texas, now Judge Homer Thornberry of Texas, and me in the back seat.