Chapter XXXVI: Part 36

"Mr. LANE. And I have read that, of course, and I wonder if you would be good enough to talk to me?"

Mr. LIEBELER. You are shaking your head, as you listen to this tape recorder, Mrs. Markham.

John Joe, let's stop the recorder for a moment. What do you mean to indicate by that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I never talked to that man.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that not your voice on the tape?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't tell about my voice, but that man--I never talked to no woman or no man like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will play the recording some more, and are you following it along, Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I am right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. And does this memorandum appear to be an accurate and exact transcript of the recording?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That man--whoever that man is--I don't know, but it says, Mark Lane. No, sir--I'll tell the truth (raising right hand) and those words that he's saying--that's nothing like the telephone call I got--nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's continue with the recording and see if you recognize your voice here on the tape.

"Mr. LANE. Tell me the description of the man whom you saw.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. This is an office business phone and I just can't tell you that." I don't have the time to.

"Mr. LANE. Well, could you just give me one moment and tell me--I read where you told some of the reporters that he was short and stocky and had bushy hair.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, no; I did not say that.

"Mr. LANE. You did not say that?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

"Mr. LANE. Would you say that he was stocky?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. He was short.

"Mr. LANE. He was short?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

"Mr. LANE. And was he a little on the heavy side?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Not too heavy.

"Mr. LANE. Not too heavy, but slightly heavy?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was--no--he didn't look too heavy.

"Mr. LANE. He wasn't too heavy and would you say that he had a rather bushy kind of hair?"

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; that's my voice.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; just a little bit bushy.

"Mr. LANE. It was a little bit bushy?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

"Mr. LANE. Yes. Was there anybody else around when you saw this happen?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I didn't see anyone.

"Mr. LANE. There was no one else there. Did you ever have a chance to see Mr. Oswald when he was alive, I mean after he was arrested, did they bring you down to look at him?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw him on the lineup.

"Mr. LANE. Yes. Did he look anything like the man who shot Oswald?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. I identified him.

"Mr. LANE. You identified him as the man who did shoot him. Did anyone point him out to you at that time as the man?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. In the lineup?

"Mr. LANE. Yes.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; they did not.

"Mr. LANE. Did they tell you who it might be?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. They didn't tell me one thing.

"Mr. LANE. No. Do you recall what the gentleman was wearing who shot Officer Tippit?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

"Mr. LANE. How was he dressed?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light gray looking jacket.

"Mr. LANE. Yes.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Kind of dark trousers.

"Mr. LANE. Dark trousers?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Uh-huh.

"Mr. LANE. And did you see what color shirt?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I could not.

"Mr. LANE. The jacket was open or closed?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; it was zipped up a little bit--the neck was closed--pretty close too.

"Mr. LANE. Well, as I said, I have read your affidavit and it indicates the police car stopped and then this man walked over to it and leaned on it and placed his arms up against the car.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Up in the window.

"Mr. LANE. In the window?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the police officer call him over, did you?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen the police car stop--I seen it all.

"Mr. LANE. I beg your pardon?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I seen the police car stop.

"Mr. LANE. You heard the police car stop?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. I seen it.

"Mr. LANE. You saw it stop and then Oswald or this gentleman, whoever it was, walked over to the car?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he walked over to the car.

"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the officer call him over, though, did you?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down the window.

"Mr. LANE. He did what?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down his window.

"Mr. LANE. The officer rolled down the window?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; uh-huh.

"Mr. LANE. Of course, you didn't put that in your affidavit.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir?

"Mr. LANE. That was not in your affidavit.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. It should have been.

"Mr. LANE. It should have been--you told that to the officers?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he had to have the window rolled down, because, you see, he leaned over in the window.

"Mr. LANE. I see. Now, did you tell the officers at the police station when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot Tippit?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. I told them that at the scene of the murder.

"Mr. LANE. You told the officers the description?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

"Mr. LANE. Did you say that he was short and a little bit on the heavy side and had slightly bushy hair?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not. They didn't ask me that.

"Mr. LANE. They never asked you his description?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; they asked what he was wearing.

"Mr. LANE. Just what he was wearing?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

"Mr. LANE. But they never asked you how he was built or anything like that?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

"Mr. LANE. Well, you went to the police station where they took your affidavit, right?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes."

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are shaking your head at this point.

Miss Reporter, you are taking the transcript down.

The REPORTER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, at this point you were shaking your head, what do you mean by that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. This man--I have never talked with. This lady was never on the telephone. This man that called me like I told you, he told me he was from the city hall, the police department, the police department of the city hall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, do you remember having this conversation with somebody?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I do, but he told me he was from the police department of city hall and he had to get some information, a little more information from me. That was my boss that told me--the one that said, "Wait a minute," that was my boss, Mr. Sam Gambolus.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you received this call at the place where you work?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that when the telephone calls started, that this man told you he was from the city hall of the police department?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; yes, sir; right. Because--you see--I had got a call from a man, but it was--I found out later, because the lady had called me back, it was from Mr. Tippit's sister, and I had told them that I couldn't talk, you know, I was busy on my job and this man told me that he was from the police department of the city hall and he had to get a little more information and it wouldn't take much of my time, and so I got permission from this boss, Mr. Gambolus, to talk with this man. Now, he told me that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he tell you he was from the police department?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, on this tape recording right here, this man is asking you what the police did.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I know it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he said they--the police took you and took your affidavit.

Mrs. MARKHAM. That man--I have never talked to that man. I talked to a man that was supposed to have been from the police department of the city hall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize this as the voice of the man you talked to?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; it is not.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is not the same voice?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you explain the fact that the woman's voice on this tape recording is your voice?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I never heard that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard the man's voice before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. And I never heard this lady's voice before--this is the first time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt in your mind at all that the lady's voice on the tape now is your voice?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It is my voice, but this man told me he was from the city police.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you as you were talking to him--when he said, for example, on the tape here just a few minutes ago, did you tell the officers--you told this person you were talking to on this tape that you saw the police car stop and that this man walked over to the car and that the officer had rolled the window down and this man's voice said you did not put in the affidavit that you had seen the officer roll the window down.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Man, I have never heard such a thing as this.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the bottom of page 6 he says, "I see. Now, did you tell the officers at the police station, when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot Tippit?"

You couldn't have thought he was from the police department if he was asking you what you were telling the police before--do you agree with me?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but he told me he was from the police department and he had to get some information from me and I wanted to get back to my work.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, it is your testimony that even though you engaged in this conversation here, the man--when he started out, he told you that he was from the police department; is that right?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I wouldn't have never talked to this man. Just like if I get a telephone call I say, "You know where I am at, come down to see me." He told me he was from the police department and this lady never talked to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which lady is that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. On this tape.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which lady on the tape?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a woman talking.

Mr. LIEBELER. The lady's voice that was talking on the tape here?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I thought that was your voice?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Not at the first there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Not at the first--you mean the telephone operator, the one that was the telephone operator? The tape here indicates that the long-distance telephone operator or some telephone operator called you to the telephone and a man answered the telephone.

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; my boss called me to the telephone.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, when you came to the telephone it was this man on the telephone and he told you that he was from the police department?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then you engaged in this telephone conversation?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; he certainly did.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that, in fact, your testimony is that you had never had anybody introduce themselves to you as Mark Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't talked to him over the telephone?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; and so help me [raising right hand] I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any doubt, however, that you did engage in this particular conversation, except that you are having trouble at the beginning and end of it because you said that the man told you that he was from the police department when he called?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he certainly did. I know he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell anybody that this man who shot Officer Tippit was short and stocky and had bushy hair?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. [Handed instruments to Mr. Liebeler.]

Mr. LIEBELER. You have brought a couple of pieces of paper here that you want me to look at?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Please--this here doesn't make sense and let me show you--I don't know what to think about it, but I got this, but my daughter wouldn't let me have it because I was very upset at the time and I don't know what it even means.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that the witness has handed me a piece of paper, a single sheet of paper enclosed in an envelope of the Statler-Hilton Hotel in Dallas and postmarked Dallas, Tex., July 11, 1964, and addressed to Mrs. Helen Markham at 328 East Ninth Street in Dallas, and the letter has a return address of P.O. Box 2897, Dallas 21, Tex. It is dated July 10, 1964, and it is addressed to Mrs. Markham and it says, "At your convenience, would you kindly call me Saturday or any weekday morning between 9 a.m. and 12 noon. I would like the opportunity of discussing a matter which I believe will be mutually profitable. Sincerely, James Kerr."

We will mark the envelope and the letter as Markham Deposition Exhibit No. 2. I have marked the letter as indicated and I have put my initials on it and would you put your initials on it, Mrs. Markham, so we don't have any trouble identifying it in the future.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Just my initials?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just your initials.

(Mrs. Markham initials instrument referred to.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you ever call this Mr. Kerr?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Now, where at--there wasn't no telephone or nothing. It gives a post office box is all I saw.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never looked the telephone number up in the book or anything like that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I didn't. There are so many Kerrs--you never know who it is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the envelope has the telephone listing on it--RI 9-3195; did you notice that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I called that number off of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whose number that is?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I believe it was either the police department--I don't know, but I called.

Mr. LIEBELER. You also have a telegram you want me to look at?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never did talk to this Mr. Kerr; is that right?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; that's all I've gotten. I want you to see what you think about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has produced a telegram dated July 21, apparently 1964, and addressed to her, which reads as follows:

"Dear Mrs. Markham:

"The United States Information Agency is preparing a televised report on the findings of the Warren Commission.

"To aid us in our objectives, we have requested the on-camera presence of President Johnson, the Commission members and selected witnesses who have given testimony here in Washington. We would like to request your cooperation in appearing on our program. In our opinion, your presence and perhaps a statement of your feeling and of your feelings in truthful note and fashion will serve to alleviate the tension and misgivings following the death of Officer Tippit and, of course, the other Dallas tragedies. I would be most anxious to have your reaction and will contact you personally concerning our request.

"I look forward to talking with you.

"Sincerely, Buck Richard Pennington, Producer, Television Service U.S. Information Agency, Washington 25, D.C., phone Worth 2-0319."

When did you receive this?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well----

Mr. HOWLETT. Just a moment, I talked to Mrs. Markham about this--she called me on the telephone about that. The U.S. Information Agency is a legitimate Government organization and they are planning to do this. They have contacted us to assist them in the location of some witnesses and we checked with our office in Washington and they came back and told us it was a legitimate venture, but we were, the Secret Service, was engaged with the Commission and that we wouldn't be able to help, but it is supposed to be a legitimate operation.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you have discussed this with Agent Howlett, is that right, as he indicated?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Now, this man--Buck Pennington?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. He called me right after I got this telegram and whatever you think--he wanted me to come up there Monday or Tuesday. Do you think it would be all right?

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, neither one of us is in a position to give you any advice on that at all, Mrs. Markham.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, who do I go to? I don't want to do something wrong. I've done talked to somebody, I didn't know who I was talking to.

Mr. LIEBELER. I suggest you write a little note to Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission's staff in Washington and ask him what he thinks you should do.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Would you write that address down?

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give her that address, Joe? Afterward.

Mr. HOWLETT. That's Mr. Rankin's address in Washington?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't know if it would be all right to go up there and do that or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, why don't you write to Mr. Rankin and he will handle that aspect of it.

Now, I want to mark this transcript, Mrs. Markham, and we have listened to the tape--not all the way through, but part of the way through, to about page 6, and you followed it through to that extent, have you not?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are satisfied that to the extent we have listened to the tape, that it is accurately set forth in this memorandum?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that correct?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but that man is wrong. Why would anybody want to do anything like that?

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you put your initials on that memorandum, please?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; may I use a pencil?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I just wrote Markham down there.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham. I don't have any other questions at this time.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, that just worries me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will have to do further investigation into this.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Because he told me he was from the police department. It never dawned on me. You know, I was in a hurry to get back because I was going to get fired if I didn't get back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, will I get in any trouble over this?

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think so, Mrs. Markham. I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think anybody is going to cause you any trouble over that [referring to the telegram].

Mrs. MARKHAM. That was dirty in that man doing that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That was dirty in that man doing that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I would think that's right.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he's not no better than Oswald--that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you, Mrs. Markham, very much.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. DONALD BAKER

The testimony of Mrs. Donald Baker was taken at 11:50 a.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before you sit down, will you raise your right hand and please take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. BAKER. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Baker, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney present and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing. You don't have to answer any questions that you think would violate any of your constitutional rights. I presume from the nature of the testimony that we are going to ask you about that you don't want your attorney present and that you are willing to proceed with the testimony at this point; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mrs. BAKER. Mrs. Donald Baker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been married since the 22d of November 1963?

Mrs. BAKER. February 1, 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were married on February 1, 1963?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you Virgie Rachley or is that somebody else?

Mrs. BAKER. That's me.

Mr. LIEBELER. How come I have your name as Virgie Rachley and also Mrs. Donald S. Baker?

Mrs. BAKER. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I have a report from the FBI that is dated November 24, 1963, and they refer to you as Virgie Rachley in that report, but you had already been married at that time; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. I married this year.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oh, February of 1964?

Mrs. BAKER. This is 1964--I'm sorry.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's right. Now, we've got it. You were Virgie Rachley on November 24, 1963, and you were married in February 1964.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes; that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were employed at the time of the assassination as a bookkeeper at the Texas School Book Depository; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long had you worked there?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, I have been there since July 16, 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. Last year?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Lee Harvey Oswald or have occasion to see him while you were employed at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. BAKER. I had seen him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen him?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever said anything to him or talked to him at all?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of him just from seeing him around the building?

Mrs. BAKER. Just that he was awful quiet.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, did you form any impression of him at all?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what happened on the 22d of November in connection with the motorcade, would you please, what you saw and what you did?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, we came out of the building across the street at approximately 12 or 12:15 and we stood out in front, directly in front of the Depository Building and as the motorcade came by the President waved and he got down----

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you standing at this point, at the time the motorcade came along?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, there is a divisional line--I don't know exactly what you would call it--the little part of the street that runs in front of the Depository and then there is--I don't know what you would call it--the grassy stuff that comes out to form the plaza along the front.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say there is a little street that runs immediately in front of the School Book Depository Building; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if that street has a name or not?

Mrs. BAKER. I'm sure it doesn't--I have never seen one.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then after that little street that runs right in front of the Depository Building, there is a little strip of grass with some trees on it; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then comes Elm Street; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And on the other side of Elm Street there is a sort of a triangular plot of grass.

Mrs. BAKER. I guess you could say we were standing just at the edge of Elm Street at the side of the Depository because we were out almost in the street--Elm Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Elm Street is separated from another street that runs down through the triple underpass. Do you know the name of that street that runs right down here--I am showing you Commission Exhibit No. 354, an aerial view of the street that runs by and three streets converge and go under the railroad tracks and that's the triple underpass.

Mrs. BAKER. I think that goes out to Stemmons Expressway or leads into Stemmons Expressway.

Mr. LIEBELER. The street that runs right down through here, the middle, is that Main Street?

Mrs. BAKER. That would be Main Street and this one would be Commerce.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, can you point to me approximately where you were standing?

Mrs. BAKER. Let me find the building here--it would be right here--we were standing right at the edge, approximately directly in front of the building or at the edge of the building; we were standing right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were standing directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and on the same side of Elm Street that the Texas School Book Depository is located?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what you saw?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, after he passed us, then we heard a noise and I thought it was firecrackers, because I saw a shot or something hit the pavement.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard that immediately after the first noise; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell or did you have any idea where the noise came from when you first heard it?

Mrs. BAKER. No; I thought there were some boys standing down there where he was--where the President's car was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down farther on the street, you mean?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes; close to the underpass.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had the President's car already passed you at the time you heard the first noise?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately how far down the street it had gone when you heard the first shot?

Mrs. BAKER. I don't know exactly--I could still see the back of the car--I can't judge distance so I really couldn't tell you.

Mr. LIEBELER. It hadn't gone out of sight in your opinion?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you still see the President?

Mrs. BAKER. Not too well.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a gradual curve on Elm Street and the car had already started slightly into the curve by the time it had gone by you?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say you saw something hit the street after you heard the first shot; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see it hit the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Have you got that--can you see the signs on that picture there?

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you can't see the signs too well on that picture, which is Commission Exhibit No. 354, but I will show you some other pictures here on which the signs do appear. First of all, let me show you Hudson Exhibit No. 1 on which appears a sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway, Keep Right."

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you see that sign?

Mrs. BAKER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Stemmons Freeway sign from where you were standing?

Mrs. BAKER. No; I couldn't see the sign because I was angled--we were stepping out in the street then and it was approximately along in here, I presume, the first sign--I don't know which one it is, but I saw the bullet hit on down this way, I guess, right at the sign, angling out.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think the bullet hit the street, only it was farther out in the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Even though you couldn't see the sign, you could see this thing hit the street near the sign?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to me from looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, that you can in fact make out where the signs are located along the side of the road and let's see if these do look like the signs. Now, as you come down Elm Street past the place you were standing going toward the triple underpass, there is a tree here on this little grassy triangular spot that is on the side of Elm Street toward the Texas School Book Depository Building, right on Dealey Plaza here by this concrete structure. Then, after the tree, going on down toward the triple underpass, it appears in the aerial photograph--a spot that looks like a sign or a shadow--it looks like a sign to me.

Mrs. BAKER. There is a sign there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then there's another sign farther on down there.

Mrs. BAKER. This was a big sign here and there was a small one here.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that it was approximately near the first sign?

Mrs. BAKER. As I can remember, it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you went down Elm Street that you saw this thing hit the street--what did it look like when you saw it?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, as I said, I thought it was a firecracker. It looked just like you could see the sparks from it and I just thought it was a firecracker and I was thinking that there was somebody was fixing to get in a lot of trouble and we thought the kids or whoever threw it were down below or standing near the underpass or back up here by the sign.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would they have been as far down as the underpass or somewhere near the sign to have thrown a firecracker in the street?

Mrs. BAKER. It was near the signs.

Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the curb on Elm Street was this thing you saw hit; do you remember? It would have been on the curb side--near the curb side away from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the opposite side of the street; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the opposite curb do you think it was?

Mrs. BAKER. It was approximately in the middle of the lane--I couldn't be quite sure, but I thought it was in the middle or somewhere along in there. I could even be wrong about that but I could have sworn it that day.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought it was sort of toward the middle of the lane?

Mrs. BAKER. Toward the middle of the lane.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of the left-hand lane going toward the underpass; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where was the thing that you saw hit the street in relation to the President's car? I mean, was it in front of the car, behind his car, by the side of his car or was it close to the car?

Mrs. BAKER. I thought it was--well--behind it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had the car already gone by when you saw this thing hit in the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether it hit toward the left-hand side or the right-hand side of the President's car, or was it just immediately behind it? If you can't remember it that closely, all right.

Mrs. BAKER. I can't remember it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually see the President get hit by any bullets?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear?

Mrs. BAKER. Three.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware that they were shots?

Mrs. BAKER. With the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where they were coming from?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, the way it sounded--it sounded like it was coming from--there was a railroad track that runs behind the building--there directly behind the building and around, so I guess it would be by the underpass, the triple underpass, and there is a railroad track that runs back out there and there was a train that looked like a circus train as well as I can remember now, back there, and we all ran to the plaza--the little thing there I guess you call it a plaza--back behind there--this other girl and I almost ran back over there and looked and we didn't see anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say the plaza, you mean Dealey Plaza, the area that lies between Elm Street and this little street that runs by the Texas School Book Depository Building; is that correct? Is that what you mean?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you ran down the little street that runs in front of the School Book Depository?

Mrs. BAKER. Along the grass.

Mr. LIEBELER. Along the grass--alongside there, running toward the triple underpass where Elm Street goes, but you were actually running down the little street or alongside the street on the grass, alongside the street that runs right in front of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say there are some railroad tracks back in there; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately behind Dealey Plaza away from Elm Street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And is that where you thought the shots came from?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when you went down there and looked, did you see anybody at all?

Mrs. BAKER. Just a policeman and several people were down there around the tracks working.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't see anybody you thought might have been the assassin?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have subsequently heard, I'm sure, and from reading in the newspapers and one thing and another, that it appears that the shots actually came from the Texas School Book Depository Building; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does that seem possible to you in view of what you heard at the time?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, I guess it might have been the wind, but to me it didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. The sounds you heard at the time did not appear to come from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at the Texas School Book Depository Building at all while you were standing there?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you had no occasion to see anybody in any of the windows in that building?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. According to the FBI report of the interview that you gave them on November 24, you said that just after the shooting some man who had been sitting on a wall directly across the street from you came up and said he saw everything; is that so?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever find out what that man's name was?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir; I did not. I didn't see him after that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what he had seen?

Mrs. BAKER. No; I don't remember--he came over--I don't know when he came over now, but he told us he had seen everything--it might have been later that afternoon. I think it was--I think it was later that afternoon.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he had been, where he could see all this?

Mrs. BAKER. He said he was sitting on that wall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you say "that wall" I show you again Commission Exhibit No. 354.

Mrs. BAKER. This wall here [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you referring to a wall that is on the triangular spot formed by Elm Street and Main Street and across Elm Street from the Texas School Book Depository Building? And on Commission Exhibit No. 354; that area has some ink marks on it around part of it?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man tell you exactly where on the wall he had been sitting?

Mrs. BAKER. No; I presume it was on this high wall here--it sticks up real high--I presume he was up there on top.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have indicated the part of the wall that faces toward the triple underpass down toward where Elm Street and Main Street and Commerce all come together?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there has been some speculation that perhaps the shots might have come from right off the triple overpass, from the railroad tracks that go up over the top, were you able to see these railroad tracks at the time from where you were standing down here--when I say, "Down here," I mean the railroad tracks that actually go over Elm Street and Main Street and Commerce.

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You could not see that?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the shots sound like they had come from that area, or did they sound like they had come from the area more around toward the Texas School Book Depository Building and behind Dealey Plaza?

Mrs. BAKER. It sounded like it was coming from along in here--it didn't sound like it was too far off.

Mr. LIEBELER. It didn't sound like it was coming, however, directly from the railroad tracks that go over Elm, Main, and Commerce; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report also indicates that after the second shot you began to smell gunsmoke; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell where it was coming from?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, could you pick out the place on Elm Street as the approximate place where you saw this object hit the ground for us, and we will mark it with a pen or pencil. Let's first of all mark the place where you were standing, Mrs. Baker, if we can.

Mrs. BAKER. Okay, after he had gone by, I got out into the street, I guess, along in here in the middle of the lanes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in the middle of the right-hand lane?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes; the right-hand lane.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, we will mark that as No. 1 and we will put a circle around it and its right in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. On Elm Street in the right-hand lane.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And I guess that this tree was along in here somewhere?

Mrs. BAKER. I couldn't be sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. There appear to be two trees, one on this side of Elm Street--this looks like a tree right here on the opposite side of Elm Street toward the Dealey Plaza.

Mrs. BAKER. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And across the street--across Elm Street there appears to be another tree just down from the wall.

Mrs. BAKER. There's not a tree there.

Mr. LIEBELER. There's not a tree there?

Mrs. BAKER. No, there's a sign there, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's a sign.

Mrs. BAKER. I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us by judging from the tree that's in the corner of Dealey Plaza closest towards the School Book Depository Building, judging from that, where the thing hit the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Approximately right here--between the sign and the tree.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right here, would you say?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have indicated the approximate area where you think it hit and we will indicate it by the No. 2, is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked this photograph, Baker Exhibit No. 1, and I have placed my initials on it and would you put your initials on it just below mine so that we can identify the picture for the purposes of our record?

Mrs. BAKER. [Complied with request of Mr. Liebeler.]

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you look at that picture and see if you can tell from it where you were standing and if that helped you to place the spot where the bullet hit?

Mrs. BAKER. It would be back in here behind this car.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been where you were standing or where the bullet hit?

Mrs. BAKER. I really can't tell for the tree there and everything--but it was right in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as we look at this picture this is Baker Exhibit No. 1, starting from the left front, there are--there is a car down there and there is a Volkswagen panel truck in the picture and then there are two cars immediately behind the Volkswagen and then there is a convertible out--approximately in the middle of the street, isn't that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think you might have been standing somewhere behind the spot where that convertible is located in this picture; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Either there or right in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right in back around the second car behind the Volkswagen?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this picture actually shows the little grassy area and the trees that lie between Elm Street and the little street that runs in front of the Texas School Book Depository, doesn't it?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you give me an estimate, looking at this picture, where that thing might have hit the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It may not be in this picture--I don't know that it is.

Mrs. BAKER. I just can't tell--I would say it was over in here somewhere in this picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. Somewhere in about here?

Mrs. BAKER. It could have been further on up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will mark the place "X", but you think it might have been right along here or somewhere farther down. Now, is there a concrete divider somewhere here on Elm Street?

Mrs. BAKER. Not until you pass the underpass.

Mr. LIEBELER. Not until you get down here towards the underpass and then there are concrete dividers here between Elm Street and Main Street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Back up here toward the intersection at Houston Street, there is a curb on the side of Elm Street and that's all?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, you turn down from Houston Street and go right on down Elm Street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You saw this thing hit the street before you heard the second shot; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you absolutely sure of that?

Mrs. BAKER. I hope I am--I know I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. In marking the "X" on Baker Exhibit No. 1 that we marked, we were assuming, were we not, that the "X" was fairly near the first sign on the right-hand side of Elm Street going toward the triple underpass after the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. BAKER. I think that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think that we will find that the "X" is--well, it is very difficult to tell the exact spot from which Baker Exhibit No. 1 was taken, but if in fact we are correct, if in fact it is taken from the side of Main Street toward Commerce Street, then the "X" would not be in the right place, would it, if this lampost here that appears in the picture is actually at the end of the grassy spot made by Main Street and Elm Street, then the "X" that we have on Baker Exhibit No. 1 would be too far down toward the Triple Underpass to be in the right place where you saw it hit, isn't that right; do you follow me?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because, if this is actually the end of this grassy spot, if the lamppost is actually the end of the grassy spot here between Elm Street and Main Street, this "X" is very close to the Triple Underpass.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't see the bullet hit that far down the street, did you?

Mrs. BAKER. No; not that far.

Mr. LIEBELER. It would have been much closer, up towards the Texas School Book Depository Building--near the first sign?

Mrs. BAKER. This right here are the steps--to the plaza.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and as a point of fact, as we look at that now, it becomes quite clear that it was taken from a spot much closer to the triple underpass than we had originally thought, because in the left-hand side of the picture you can see the steps coming down from the plaza.

Mrs. BAKER. It must have been right here in this area because these were the steps--I can't tell which sign is which, but I know there were four girls standing near the sign and it must have been back up here because there must have been another sign closer up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which was taken at the time of the assassination, it shows Dealey Plaza here and there are some steps that go down over here in the very background of the picture and they go down onto the sidewalk and it runs along past Elm Street here.

Mrs. BAKER. This would be the first sign here.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Stemmons Freeway sign.

Mrs. BAKER. This one over here--the steps are already here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the steps are toward the background in Hudson Exhibit No. 1 and those appear to be the steps that are also toward the front left of Baker Exhibit No. 1.

Mrs. BAKER. It was probably back over this way.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, so the "X" on Baker Exhibit No. 1 is actually in the wrong place as far as these pictures here--it is not correct--it should be further back on up here.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes; definitely.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, we will put a "Y" back up here toward the School Book Depository Building, and actually if you look at Commission Exhibit No. 354, you can see the steps coming right down to Elm Street.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the end of Dealey Plaza toward the Triple Underpass, and I think that those steps are the same steps we can see in the left front foreground of Baker Exhibit No. 1.

Mrs. BAKER. That's the sign right in there--that big sign there, and I don't know--the sign would be here, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and the sign that we see in the very left front foreground of the picture would be the sign here that is toward the Triple Underpass from the steps to go down to Dealey Plaza on the right-hand side of Elm Street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes; this is confusing.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you are quite clear in your mind that you saw this thing hit before you heard the second shot?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, if what you saw hitting the street was, in fact, a bullet, it would have been the first shot?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anything else around the area of the Texas School Book Depository Building that day that you think might have anything to do with the assassination?

Mrs. BAKER. I don't know, but before the parade ever got there, someone passed out and I guess it would be to the left, coming down Elm Street over in this plaza between Elm Street and Main, because an ambulance pulled up and picked someone up--we never could tell who. This was before the motorcade ever got to Houston Street--I would say onto Elm Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how long before the motorcade came did this ambulance come and pick up this person?

Mrs. BAKER. I'll judge--5 minutes--about 5 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The ambulance had already left the area about 5 minutes before the Presidential motorcade came?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you come to work that morning; do you remember?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, it could have been 6:30 or 7, because I rode with daddy; my daddy works behind the Depository for the Katy Railroad and if he had to be there at 6, then I got there at 6, but that morning, I couldn't tell you, but whatever time daddy had to be at work, that's when I had to be there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald on the morning of November 22 at any time?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Billy Lovelady?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 203, and I call your attention to a man standing in the doorway of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize him?

Mrs. BAKER. That looks like Billy.

Mr. LIEBELER. That looks like Billy Lovelady?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that man you pointed to is immediately as we face the picture to the right of the mark "A" in the picture?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And is standing directly against the side of the doorway of the building--of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. If you don't have anything else you would like to tell us about this that you think we should know and that I haven't asked you, I have no other questions at this point.

Mrs. BAKER. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES W. ALTGENS

The testimony of James W. Altgens was taken at 12:45 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney. 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you please stand and take the oath. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ALTGENS. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Altgens, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission's proceedings you are entitled to have an attorney present if you want one. If you don't think you need one, it's perfectly all right. You are entitled to 3 days' notice and you may actually have gotten 3 days' notice, but if you did not, I presume you are prepared to go ahead, since you are here?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; as a matter of fact I had more than 3 days' notice because the time that was originally set up was postponed for almost an additional week, so I had plenty of time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. ALTGENS. James W. Altgens [spelling], A-l-t-g-e-n-s.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. ALTGENS. 6441 Pemberton [spelling], P-e-m-b-e-r-t-o-n Drive.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed here in Dallas at the present time?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In what capacity?

Mr. ALTGENS. Officially, I am hired as a wire photo operator, but they use me in three different classifications. I am a photographer and a news photo editor as well as a wire photo operator.

Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed?

Mr. ALTGENS. The Associated Press, Dallas Bureau.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been employed by the AP?

Mr. ALTGENS. Approximately 26-1/2 Years.

Mr. LIEBELER. So one might say you are an experienced photographer and have a little experience in the area of photographic work?

Mr. ALTGENS. I would assume so.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born, sir?

Mr. ALTGENS. April 28, 1919.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. ALTGENS. Here; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived most of your life here in Dallas?

Mr. ALTGENS. All except my service connected time.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have been advised that on November 22, 1963, you were assigned to take pictures of the Presidential motorcade; is that correct?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you do that?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding the taking of the picture or pictures that you did take and just what happened, where you were and all that you know about the events of November the 22d?

Mr. ALTGENS. Would you like for me to take it from the time that I arrived on the scene up until the time of the shooting?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir.

Mr. ALTGENS. I arrived on the triple overpass at approximately 11:15 a.m.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say the triple overpass, you mean the railroad tracks that cross over Elm, Commerce, and Main Streets?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. As they run near the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ALTGENS. As well as in the opposite direction.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir.