Chapter XL: Part 40

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look at the curb at that time to see if the mark was still there?

Mr. TAGUE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it still there?

Mr. TAGUE. Not that I could tell.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet a newspaper photographer that day and talk to him at all about the assassination?

Mr. TAGUE. The day of the assassination?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. TAGUE. Not that I can recall. I left the area down there at about a quarter to one, and the officer there told me to go to the police headquarters and report to somebody down there and tell them what I had seen.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you do that?

Mr. TAGUE. I did that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Referring now to Baker Exhibit No. 1, does that look like it might have been taken from approximately the place where you were standing at the time you got hit, from the same general area?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe I was back further to the left, back down this way further.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is further toward the west?

Mr. TAGUE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Further down toward the triple underpass?

Mr. TAGUE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it appear to you that the lamppost that is showing right here on the right-hand side of Baker Exhibit No. 1 is the very end of the grassy area described by Commerce Street and Main Street, and right down toward the concrete embankment?

Mr. TAGUE. It might possibly be.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you able to tell for sure by looking at Baker Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. TAGUE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have another picture here that purports to be a picture of a curb with a bullet mark on it. I ask you if that looks like what you saw that day.

Mr. TAGUE. It looks similar, but I can't say whether this is the actual one or not, because you can see it appears to be a bullet mark.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed this picture, having marked it Tague Exhibit No. 1, and I would like to have you initial it for the purpose of identification.

(Mr. Tague initials.)

Mr. LIEBELER. You indicate that the mark on the curb----

Mr. TAGUE. I can't tell too much which angle of the curb this is or what here.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is not a very clear picture either. Actually, I can't figure which way to look at it.

Mr. TAGUE. I can't either.

Mr. LIEBELER. It looks like there is a man standing there with a hand along the side of the curb.

Mr. TAGUE. Yes; this looks like the curb here at the back and the sun shining down. The bullet mark was right at the circle of the curb as this here.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, where the curb turned?

Mr. TAGUE. Right. At the very round, right in the middle of the round.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is where the street curb turns; when it turns there? I don't understand that. [Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354.]

Mr. TAGUE. This right here, this picture was taken this way. It would be looking this way.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am still at a loss. You indicated there is a turn in the curb at some point along here. Does the curb end and the road go together?

Mr. TAGUE. Here is the curb here I am talking about on the very round.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the round top of the curb? The curb itself continues on, but the bullet struck sort of the top edge of the curb?

Mr. TAGUE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand. Did you have any idea where these shots came from when you heard them ringing out?

Mr. TAGUE. Yes; I thought they were coming from my left.

Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately to your left, or toward the back? Of course, now we have other evidence that would indicate that the shots did come from the Texas School Book Depository, but see if we can disregard that and determine just what you heard when the shots were fired in the first place.

Mr. TAGUE. To recall everything is almost impossible. Just an impression is all I recall, is the fact that my first impression was that up by the, whatever you call the monument, or whatever it was----

Mr. LIEBELER. Up above No. 7?

Mr. TAGUE. That somebody was throwing firecrackers up there, that the police were running up there to see what was going on, and this was my first impression. Somebody was causing a disturbance, that somebody had drawn a gun and was shooting at the crowd, and the police were running up to it. When I saw the people throwing themselves on the ground is when I realized there was serious trouble, and I believe that was after the third shot was fired.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression of where the shots came from was much the result of the activity near No. 7?

Mr. TAGUE. Not when I heard the shots.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought they had come from the area between Nos. 7 and 5?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe they came from up in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Back in the area "C"?

Mr. TAGUE. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Behind the concrete monument here between Nos. 5 and 7, toward the general area of "C"?

Mr. TAGUE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up near the railroad tracks in that area after you heard the shots?

Mr. TAGUE. I looked all around. I looked at the complete area to try to find out where the disturbance was. And for some reason, after the third shot, I believe I ducked down back in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Under the railroad tracks?

Mr. TAGUE. Right. Behind an abutment. And when I stuck my head outside, the Secret Service car was just starting to pass under the underpass.

Mr. LIEBELER. The car immediately behind the President. Did you see any evidence of anybody having fired from the area on the railroad tracks above the triple underpass?

Mr. TAGUE. None.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that it is consistent with what you heard and saw that day, that the shots could have come from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. TAGUE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was in fact a considerable echo in that area?

Mr. TAGUE. There was no echo from where I stood. I was asked this question before, and there was no echo. It was just a loud, oh, not a cannon, but definitely louder and more solid than a rifleshot.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you, being in a place where there was no echo, you were able to recognize how many shots there were quite clearly?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say you heard three shots?

Mr. TAGUE. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing anything else or observing anything else that day that you think would be helpful to the Commission, that I haven't asked you about?

Mr. TAGUE. Not that I can think of. There is lots of things that you recall about something like that, that you don't recall for certain. What struck me the most was that everybody said all three shots were accounted for. I felt very strongly that the third shot hit down there, and there was the deputy sheriff and the patrolman down under the bridge right there with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say you thought it was the third shot that hit down there?

Mr. TAGUE. No; I said I thought that all three shots were accounted for. All the newspaper accounts for months said all the shots were accounted for.

Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of hitting in the car?

Mr. TAGUE. Hitting into the car; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, there was a story in the paper more recently that indicated that one of them might have missed.

Mr. TAGUE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that?

Mr. TAGUE. That's right; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, is there anything that you can think of that you think the Commission should know about of what you heard and saw that day?

Mr. TAGUE. No; I don't know a thing. The only thing that I saw that I thought was wrong was that there was about 5 or 6 or 7 minutes in there before anybody done anything about anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was after the shots were fired?

Mr. TAGUE. That was after the shots were fired.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean, "Before they did anything"?

Mr. TAGUE. There was no action taken except for the one policeman that I could see that stopped his motorcycle, and it fell over on him at first, and he got it standing upright and drew his gun, and he was the only one doing anything about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see any other policemen around in the area?

Mr. TAGUE. Not for 4 or 5 minutes. If Oswald was in that building, he had all the time in the world to calmly walk out of there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Apparently that is just what he did do. Well, if you can't think of anything else, Mr. Tague, I want to thank you for coming in and for the cooperation you have given us. We appreciate it very much.

Mr. TAGUE. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF EMMETT J. HUDSON

The testimony of Emmett J. Hudson was taken at 10:40 a.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand and take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HUDSON. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

Pursuant to the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have an attorney present, if you wish, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing. I don't think you did get 3 days' notice of it, but since you are here I assume you are willing to go ahead?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to have an attorney present?

Mr. HUDSON. I don't know that it is necessary--no, is it?

Mr. LIEBELER. No; I don't think it is at all necessary. Most of the witnesses don't have one present. We just have a few questions. Will you state your full name, please?

Mr. HUDSON. Emmett J. Hudson.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. HUDSON. 107 South Bishop.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you are employed by the Dallas Park Department and you are the grounds keeper of Dealey Plaza; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you the grounds keeper of Dealey Plaza on or about November 22, 1963.

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I have been there about 6 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us where you were on November 22, 1963, at around noon, around the time the Presidential motorcade came by?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I was over there next to that T. & P. Railroad yard where the little toolshed was.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nearest intersection to where you were?

Mr. HUDSON. Elm.

Mr. LIEBELER. Elm and what?

Mr. HUDSON. Houston.

Mr. LIEBELER. Elm and Houston?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far away from the corner of Elm and Houston were you at the time the motorcade came by?

Mr. HUDSON. Oh, I suppose that it's about--the best I can estimate is somewhere about 200 yards, I guess, down Elm and Houston when the motorcade came along--that's about where I was.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were right by where the motorcade came by; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what you saw and tell us just what happened when the motorcade came along?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, I was standing on those steps that came straight down to Elm there, just above that triple underpass, I was about halfway between the triple underpass and Houston, where the steps are--somewhere near about halfway.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. It depicts the street and the triple underpass. Can you show us on that picture, if that picture shows it the place where you were standing?

Mr. HUDSON. Let me see--that's the triple underpass down there--I don't believe this picture gets those steps--yes; it does, too--here they are--I recognize it now--here it is right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where are the steps?

Mr. HUDSON. Here they are--right there.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is the series of steps that runs right down the street there?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you show me just where you were standing?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, I was right along--you see, the steps come down the steps for a way and then there is a broad place, oh, I'll say it is a little wider than this table here on the steps and then some steps and I was standing on this--that would be somewhere around along about there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me just mark on that picture the place where you were standing so that we can have that.

Mr. HUDSON. Right along about there.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was right here where I have placed this "X", is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; right along in there.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were standing about where I placed the "X" on photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. Tell me what you saw--tell me what happened to the best of your recollection.

Mr. HUDSON. Well, there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat down there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him--the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was when the bullet him him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it looked like it hit him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON. Right hand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately where the President's car was when you heard what you later figured out was the first shot?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, the best I could get right off--I remember it was right along about this lightpost right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are indicating the first lightpost on the right-hand side of Elm Street?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; coming off of Houston, you see, there's a lightpost right there close to the Houston Street, right there, just above this little crook right there.

Mr. LIEBELER. That lightpost doesn't show in the picture you have here?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; it doesn't show in the picture--it was about, I believe, where the first shot was fired.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think he was by the lightpost in this picture when the first shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON. Right along there is about where President Kennedy's car was when he was hit--at the time I was looking right at him when the shot struck him, when the bullet struck him.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear altogether?

Mr. HUDSON. Three.

Mr. LIEBELER. Three shots?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I do believe that--I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And after you saw him hit in the head, did you hear another shot?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that shot hit anything--the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir. I'll tell you--this young fellow that was sitting there with me--standing there with me at the present time, he says, "Lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down," and he kept on repeating, "Lay down," so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground--you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Mr. LIEBELER. How could you tell that?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, just the sound of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You heard it come from sort of behind the motorcade and then above?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I don't know if you have ever laid down close to the ground, you know, when you heard the reports coming, but it's a whole lot plainer than it is when you are standing up in the air.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were standing down here where we put the "X"?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that when the President was hit in the head he was up here by the first lamppost on the right-hand side of the post that shows in the picture?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; right along in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's when he got hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you had to look up Elm Street?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I was looking up this way, you see. You see [indicating on photograph], that's the motorcade car right there, isn't it?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the picture that we are looking at here is a picture of a reenactment of the scene.

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired--somewhere right along in there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think that the last shot was fired and the car was about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON. Pretty close to it; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you think the President had already been hit in the head by the time the third shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON. He had been hit twice, so Parkland Hospital said. He was hit in the neck one time and in the head one time.

Mr. LIEBELER. When the first shot was fired, were you looking at the presidential car then; could you see it then?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it was coming around--it had just got around the corner, you see, from off of Houston Street, making that corner there, come off of Houston onto Elm.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it look to you like the President was hit by the first shot?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I don't think so--I sure don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he got hit by the first shot?

Mr. HUDSON. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after the President got hit in the head, did you see what he did, what happened in the car?

Mr. HUDSON. He slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy, she climbs over in the seat with him and pulls him over.

Mr. LIEBELER. Pulled him down in the seat?

Mr. HUDSON. Pulled him over in her lap like.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't think the President got hit by the first shot and you say he got hit in the head with the second shot----

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And if we assume that he was hit twice, you would have to say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was hit again after he got hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that could have been possible when Mrs. Kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the neck after he had been hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was still sitting far enough up in the car he could have been hit?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you watch the President after he got hit in the head like that?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, as soon as everybody realized what had happened, you know, everybody went to going up the hill so we did too.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you only saw the President hit once; is that right, sir?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I just saw him hit once.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was in the head?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you aren't able to say from your own observation when he was hit in the neck?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. If he was hit in the neck.

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could the car have actually been down here where it is in photograph No. 18, could it have been that far down Elm Street--this is Elm Street that runs down here--right here--could the car have been that far down Elm Street when the President got hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; no, sir, it wasn't that far down.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you see this little pedestal back up here?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just above the "X" where you were standing?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing up there that you can remember, during the time the President went by?

Mr. HUDSON. Oh, there was a bunch of people in there, you know, a whole bunch of them--a lot of people in there--a lot of people in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing up there taking motion pictures with a movie camera?

Mr. HUDSON. Oh, yes; I seen people up there trying to get--taking pictures.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see a man with a moving picture camera?

Mr. HUDSON. Not in particular, I didn't. It was such an exciting time--now--I did notice a man back over here on this triangle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Standing across Elm Street?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. With a motion picture camera?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, he had a camera--I don't know whether it was a motion picture camera or not, but he had a camera.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture which we will mark as Hudson Exhibit No. 1. I have put my initials on the back of the picture. Would you do that too so we can identify the picture before we start to talk about it, so we don't get confused?

Mr. HUDSON. You mean--put my name?

Mr. LIEBELER. Just your initials.

Mr. HUDSON. [Marked picture as requested.] Is that all right?

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let's take a look at that picture, Mr. Hudson, and let me ask you if you can see in that picture, where you were standing?

Mr. HUDSON. (No response.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this picture, Hudson Exhibit No. 1, has a sign in it that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep right," doesn't it?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you find that sign on the photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875? The one that we were talking about before.

Mr. HUDSON. That's right here, I believe--right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, that sign says, "R. L. Thornton Freeway, keep right." Where is the Stemmons Freeway sign in this picture? Can you see it in that picture at all--I can't.

Mr. HUDSON. I can't either--that isn't it--it's farther up this way.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's further back up and it's out of the picture?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. There are two signs in picture No. 18, one says, "R. L. Thornton Freeway, keep right," and the other one says, "Fort Worth Turnpike, keep right."

Mr. HUDSON. There were two of them that wasn't too far apart right through there--them signs was--one was right along in here and the other one was either further up, I guess. It's not in that picture--I don't believe. Now, they have moved some of those signs. They have moved that R. L. Thornton Freeway sign and put up a Stemmons sign.

Mr. LIEBELER. They have? They have moved it?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. That might explain it, because this picture here, No. 18, was taken after the assassination and this one was taken at the time--No. 1.

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it had to be right along in there--those steps have got to come down right along in here, if I see the picture right. Now, this is Elm right here coming down through here, and this is that concrete thing up here that comes around like this--it comes over here and the steps begin right along up in there somewhere and come on down right here to the sidewalk, right along in there somewhere to where those steps is.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, that you think you were standing somewhere in the back left-hand part of this picture where the steps come down off of the concrete structure there?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; this was taken at the present time--it happened--this picture was?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; this is an actual picture of the motorcade itself; yes, sir. Let me suggest that the pictures are taken from different angles, referring to photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875--there is a little concrete stand here in the very right-hand side of the picture.

Mr. HUDSON. That's just right along in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and that appears in Hudson Exhibit No. 1, immediately to the right of the sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep right." does it not?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; those steps are right along there between that concrete--the end of that concrete wall right there and that elm tree come between them--no, not an elm but that's a live oak tree--that's a live oak tree right there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that's right off of the end of this concrete embankment there, there's a live oak tree there.

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you see yourself in that picture anywhere, can you make yourself out?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I can't, unless it is one of these two men right here--I can't tell--if I had that picture that was taken in the Times Herald paper--I can show you myself in it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is that?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, it was in the Times Herald paper the next morning after, I believe, after the assassination, maybe the evening after the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. Look at this picture.

Mr. HUDSON. [Examining picture referred to.] I don't know--if that's one of them men and myself or not up there.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have shown you Commission Exhibit No. 203, and you are not able to point to yourself in that picture at any place. Actually, Commission Exhibit No. 203 shows a different area.

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's a picture from the front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and you wouldn't be in that picture, according to where you placed yourself by looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1.

Mr. HUDSON. No; I wouldn't be in that at all--I know. If they had that picture that was taken--a fellow was shooting from across Elm up toward those steps here, that showed my picture in it, I believe. Now, I could be one of those men standing right there--I'm not for sure--I wouldn't say for sure that I was one of them or not, but I can't see it well enough to tell.

Mr. LIEBELER. In this picture here you see the car is going down Elm Street, isn't that right, referring to Hudson Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it is just about to pass a sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep right." Do you think that the President could have been hit when he was that far back up Elm Street?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You do think that?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you had already heard one shot when you saw the President get hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard another shot after that time?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think, looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1, do you think that that is about the place where the President got hit in the head, or was it further back up on Elm or was it further down--if so--about where was it?

Mr. HUDSON. That's somewhere pretty close.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's pretty close right there?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it's somewhere pretty close.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard these three shots and saw the President get hit in the head, you turned around and you ran up on the little knoll there and you got away.

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. While you were standing there, did you ever look up toward the railroad tracks there where they went across the triple underpass?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; while I was laying there I didn't--I was looking down towards Elm Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you never looked up towards the railroad tracks that went across the underpass?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite sure in your own mind that the shots came from the rear of the President's car and above it; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea that they might have come from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, it sounded like it was high, you know, from above and kind of behind like--in other words, to the left.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that would have fit in with the Texas School Book Depository, wouldn't it?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up there and see if you could see anybody?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I didn't. I never thought about looking up that way, to tell you the truth about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were thinking about getting out of the way after things started?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it was just such an exciting time, you know, a fellow thinks about a million things in one second there at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing around there any place with a rifle--on the grassy spot up there near where you were standing or on the overpass or any place else?

Mr. HUDSON. I never seen anyone with a gun up there except the patrols.

Mr. LIEBELER. The policemen?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see anything else down there when this all happened that you think we ought to know about that I haven't asked you about?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I don't know of anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Governor Connally--did you think Governor Connally had been hit?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, sir; I never noticed Governor Connally in the car. The first shot must have struck him and he had done fell over in the car when that happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you didn't even see Governor Connally in the car at all?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see him get hit by any of the shots?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are assuming that maybe he got hit by the first shot and fell down in the car.

Mr. HUDSON. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw the President get hit by what you heard as the second shot?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far apart were the shots spaced; do you have any recollection about that, how long did it take for all the shots to be fired and how far apart was one shot from the other?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, they was pretty fast and not too fast either. It seemed like he had time enough to operate his gun plenty well--when the shots were all fired.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much time do you think passed from the time the first shot was fired until the second shot was fired, can you make any estimate about that?

Mr. HUDSON. Oh, probably 2 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. As much as 2 minutes?

Mr. HUDSON. It might not have been that long.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you thought he had plenty of time to get all the shots off anyway?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever do any shooting?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, not no big rifle--I haven't never done no shooting with no big rifle. I have shot shotguns--.22's and things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the shots seem evenly spaced or were some of them closer together?

Mr. HUDSON. They seemed pretty well evenly spaced.

Mr. LIEBELER. Evenly spaced; is that it?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody talk to you at all about security arrangements prior to the time the motorcade came by, or was that all handled by the police?

Mr. HUDSON. That was all handled by the police.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have anything to do with anything like that?

Mr. HUDSON. That's right--the fact of the business is, I didn't know they had been routed that way.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't even know it was going to go by until they came?

Mr. HUDSON. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been interviewed by the FBI?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who talked to you?

Mr. HUDSON. Not by name, I don't; no, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did you tell them approximately the same thing you have told me?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; approximately the same thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the Secret Service talk to you, or the Dallas Police Department or the FBI?

Mr. HUDSON. The FBI and I made a deposition over at the courthouse--the same day that the assassination was.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's office?

Mr. HUDSON. The sheriff's office.

Mr. LIEBELER. Okay, Mr. Hudson, I want to thank you very much for coming in. I don't have any more questions.

Mr. HUDSON. Well, if it has been any help, I am glad it did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon?

Mr. HUDSON. If it has been any help, I am glad to come down.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think you have been and we are glad to have you cooperate with us in the way you have. I want to thank you very much on behalf of the Commission.

Mr. HUDSON. All right, good day.

TESTIMONY OF EDGAR LEON SMITH, JR.

The testimony of Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. was taken at 10:05 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you raise your right hand and please take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SMITH. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney with the staff of the President's Committee investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

By the rules of the Commission covering the taking of testimony, you are entitled to have an attorney present and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing. I know that you haven't had 3 days' notice of the hearing because of schedule difficulties that we had yesterday and the day before, but since you are here by yourself, I presume you are prepared to go ahead and give your testimony without an attorney being present; is that right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. SMITH. Edgar Leon Smith, Jr.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where and when were you born?

Mr. SMITH. Myrtle Springs, Tex., July 9, 1933.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. SMITH. 1800 Scripture, Apartment 6, in Denton, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a Dallas policeman?

Mr. SMITH. A Dallas policeman.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963; is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. I was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us just what led up to that; how you came to be assigned to that particular area and what instructions you were given about what you were supposed to do?

Mr. SMITH. Okay--the dates and times will be just approximately, because I don't recall exactly, but approximately 9 a.m., November 22, 1963, I attended a detail in the basement of the city hall for all men who were designated to work traffic for the President's visit to Dallas.

At that detail I was given instructions by Captain Lawrence, P. W. Lawrence, as to my duties and some things to watch out for. Some of these things I was to watch out for was to watch the crowd for any unusual movements and also to keep a check on the buildings in the vicinity of where I was located. He instructed us specifically about placards. I understand that people were allowed to carry placards, but if I should notice anyone attempting to throw them or anything like that, I should take them into custody. I was assigned to the corner of Houston and Elm Street. I got to my traffic corner about----

Mr. LIEBELER. Before you get to that--let me ask you a few questions: What did you say your name was, Edgar L.?

Mr. SMITH. E. L.--Edgar L.

Mr. LIEBELER. There were two Smiths on that corner?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; I understand that.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you received your instructions that morning, was there any specific mention made of watching the windows of the buildings in the area?

Mr. SMITH. Not that I recall--just general--watch out, you know, for the crowd.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you went down to the corner of Elm and Houston and took up your duty station there at about what time?

Mr. SMITH. I think it was about approximately 10 o'clock and--I believe that's about right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And there were two other officers there, isn't that right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; there were.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what their names were?

Mr. SMITH. One of them was Welcome Barnett and the other boy was named Smith too, but I don't recall his initials.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you station yourself and what did you do from the time you arrived until the time the motorcade began to approach?

Mr. SMITH. I said approximately--oh, 30 to 40 feet south of the south curb of Elm Street at the east curb of Houston. I stood around there and talked with some of the people in this general vicinity and watched the crowd.

Mr. LIEBELER. You stood across the street on Houston Street from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Cater-cornered--and I show you Commission Exhibit No. 354, and it has a letter "A" marked there, and that will be approximately where you were standing; is that right?

Mr. SMITH. That's about where I was.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do from the time you stationed yourself in that position?

Mr. SMITH. Well, I stood there and talked some to the crowd after they finally formed. They didn't start forming until around 11 o'clock, and looked over here at the Texas School Book Depository Building and just stood there mainly--there wasn't much to do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at the buildings that were around this intersection here at Elm Street at all?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you were standing there at position "A" in Exhibit No. 354, you were in a position to observe the south windows of the Texas School Book Depository Building, were you not?

Mr. SMITH. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice any windows open up there?

Mr. SMITH. I don't recall at this time whether there was any open. I'm sure there were, but I just don't remember it specifically--any specifically being open. There's quite a few people looking out the windows and what not of the various buildings.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any suspicious activities of any kind in any of those windows?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened when the motorcade came down Main Street and turned right on Houston Street; what did you do then?

Mr. SMITH. I just stood parade rest there, you know, trying to keep the people back. I was facing the motorcade--they had come out in the street here a little bit and I just stood there.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you were facing west?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go out into the intersection at any point here and help hold traffic back at that intersection, did you?

Mr. SMITH. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you stood there as the motorcade went by, facing west down toward the triple underpass and the motorcade turned left and started to go down Elm Street, is that right?

Mr. SMITH. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. From where you are standing, could you observe the railroad tracks that went over the triple underpass down there at the bottom of Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. SMITH. I'm sure I could see them from that location, but I don't remember, you know, noticing them. I had noticed them earlier in the day, probably from that location, and I had saw some officers up there, and other than that, I don't remember seeing anything else. I do specifically remember seeing some officers on the overpass here.

Mr. LIEBELER. As the motorcade turned and went down Elm Street, what happened?

Mr. SMITH. I heard three shots, I guess they were shots. I thought that the first two were just firecrackers and kept my position and after the third one, I ran down the street here.

Mr. LIEBELER. You ran down Elm Street?

Mr. SMITH. Well, ran down Houston Street and then to Elm, and actually, I guess it was a little bit farther over than this, because after they turned the corner I couldn't see any of the cars, there were so many people standing there around the corner.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were a little bit farther south down Elm Street than Position "A"?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; possibly a little bit farther south than that--yes; I was under these windows here.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's the county building there you are talking about?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; a little bit farther down. Anyhow, I couldn't see down there without running over here, and I run down here at the time to see the Presidential car go under the triple underpass at a high rate of speed, and I pulled my pistol out and there was people laying down there and run down the street and that was about all. I thought when it came to my mind that there were shots, and I was pretty sure there were when I saw his car because they were leaving in such a hurry, I thought they were coming from this area here, and I ran over there and checked back of it and, of course, there wasn't anything there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought the shot came from this little concrete structure up behind No. 7?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. On Commission Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the railroad tracks there?

Mr. SMITH. That's true.

Mr. LIEBELER. And to the north of No. 7?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you ran down in there and what did you do when you got down there?

Mr. SMITH. I ran down here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down on Elm Street?

Mr. SMITH. And I ran up to here and I couldn't get over so I went back around then.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went farther down Elm Street and right behind this concrete structure here; is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. And on back into there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And into the parking area behind the concrete structure there at No. 7?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, and there's where I stayed for an hour or so and after I got around there, they started checking everybody that was going in and out of the--well, I don't know who they was checking because there was so much milling around, because there was a bunch of county officers back there plus the policemen.

Mr. LIEBELER. That area was fairly searched by the officers that came down there?

Mr. SMITH. It was.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't find anything down there that seemed to have anything to do with the shot that you heard?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure you heard three shots?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where they came from?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir--like I said--the first two were just--I mulled it over in my mind and I thought it was firecrackers and I thought to myself that was awful--not very nice--throwing them out there, and then it dawned on me that it wasn't and that these were shots, especially after I ran to the corner, and this was after the third shot was fired that I got to the corner, and all I saw was the Presidential car going under the underpass, but there were definitely three of those shots.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you left the general area marked "C" here, on Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. SMITH. Well, of course, you see we checked all these cars--this extends for some distance over to the north and I went all the way down the railroad tracks a long ways and turned around and came back and took a position right down here where No. 1 is now--this was about an hour or an hour and a half after the thing happened, and I don't guess it was that long, because they had just got the word--I had already gotten back around here when Officer Tippit was shot and we got the word over the police radio, and they took off and I stayed in this area for quite some time around the front, working traffic, and I don't remember when I really left.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, after you searched behind the north and west of the School Book Depository Building, you came back up to position No. 1?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You then remained in the general area of the School Book Depository Building for some period, and then you were relieved from duty?

Mr. SMITH. Well, I went back to work again on my regular duty. I had been working evenings, and I had to report to work--it was 6 o'clock, I think, and after that I went directly to work.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see anybody or anything that you could associate with the shots or with the assassination itself other than you have already described?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I have thought about it many times. I didn't see any smoke or anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. And at no time did you see any activity down on the railroad tracks that you associated with the assassination?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is what you heard that day consistent with the proposition that the shots came from the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SMITH. They could have come from there and they could not--I just don't know. Where I was standing it just sounded like it was all round there. When I first thought--I don't know whether it actually came from here or not--you know, the thoughts of sounds coming--I don't know whether they were coming from here or not--it just looked like this was a good place for them to come from and I guess that's the reason I ran down there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down around No. 7 pointed out on this Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; I have no earthly idea where they actually came from.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you very much. I appreciate your coming in.

Mr. SMITH. That's okay.

TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM ZAPRUDER

The testimony of Abraham Zapruder was taken at 1 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Zapruder, would you stand and take the oath, please?

Do you solemnly swear this testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. What is your name?

Mr. LIEBELER. Wesley J. Liebeler [spelling] L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137.

Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have your attorney present, should you desire to have him here. You are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing and you need not answer any questions you think would violate any rights or privileges that you may have. Did you receive the 3 days' notice of the hearing?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I was out of town--I was in New York and my secretary called--she called me and told me that she made an appointment for me and that's about all that I know, Mr. Liebeler. The other proceedings--I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. I assume that you are willing to go ahead with your testimony today since you are here.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Abraham Zapruder.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's spelled [spelling] Z-a-p-r-u-d-e-r? Is that correct?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Home address?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. 3909 Marquette.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. In Dallas--yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you in business here in Dallas, Mr. Zapruder?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What business are you in?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Manufacturing ladies dresses.

Mr. LIEBELER. The manufacture of ladies dresses?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you took some motion pictures at the time of the assassination?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us about the circumstances under which you did that, where you were at the time and what happened?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And what you saw.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, of course, what I saw you have on film, but that was the day, November 22, it was around 11:30. In fact, I didn't have my camera but my secretary asked me why I don't have it and I told her I wouldn't have a chance even to see the President and somehow she urged me and I went home and got my camera and came back and first I thought I might take pictures from the window because my building is right next to the building where the alleged assassin was, and it's just across--501 Elm Street, but I figured--I may go down and get better pictures, and I walked down, I believe it was Elm Street and on down to the lower part, closer to the underpass and I was trying to pick a space from where to take those pictures and I tried one place and it was on a narrow ledge and I couldn't balance myself very much. I tried another place and that had some obstruction of signs or whatever it was there and finally I found a place farther down near the underpass that was a square of concrete--I don't know what you call it--maybe about 4 feet high.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if you can in fact see yourself in that picture?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Let me see--there it is here. That's me standing there--there's a girl--that's where I was standing.