Chapter VII: Part 7

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did something happen a little after 1 o'clock there that day that you noticed?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; policeman got shot.

Mr. BALL. Now, at the time the policeman was shot, where were you?

Mr. SMITH. In the front yard, at 505 East 10th.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you?

Mr. SMITH. Jimmy Burt.

Mr. BALL. That was about how far from where the policeman got shot?

Mr. SMITH. One block.

Mr. BALL. That would be about a block east, wouldn't it?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Policeman was shot in the 400 block?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you were in the 500 block?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What called your attention to this incident?

Mr. SMITH. I heard some shots.

Mr. BALL. And what? You looked down that way?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mr. SMITH. Saw Oswald running and policeman falling.

Mr. BALL. Did you see his face, or just his back?

Mr. SMITH. Saw the side of him, the side and back of him when he was running.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him before he ran?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Saw the side of his face?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And he ran in what direction?

Mr. SMITH. West.

Mr. BALL. Did you follow him?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down to where the policeman was shot?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mr. SMITH. Saw the policeman lying on the ground. I mean on the street.

Mr. BALL. And did a crowd gather around there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mr. SMITH. About 45 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Did you give your name to the police?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Why?

Mr. SMITH. Because I was on probation. I thought it might hurt my probation record.

Mr. BALL. All right; you did tell someone you had seen it, didn't you?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. SMITH. This boy I ran around with.

Mr. BALL. What's his name?

Mr. SMITH. James Markham.

Mr. BALL. Is he the son of Helen Markham?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to her?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; she talks to me.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham talked to you?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you tell Mrs. Markham?

Mr. SMITH. I told her what I saw and that is the reason I am here, I a----

Mr. BALL. Did the police come out and see you?

Mr. SMITH. The FBI.

Mr. BALL. The FBI did? Did you tell them the same story you told me?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see Oswald on television?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the night of the shooting?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you to be the same man you had seen?

Mr. SMITH. He had lighter hair than he did when I saw him.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, wait a minute. You mean the man you saw on television----

Mr. SMITH. Had lighter hair.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Smith--than the man you saw running away?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What color hair did the man have that you saw running away?

Mr. SMITH. Brown, brownish-black. It was dark.

Mr. BALL. How did the hair appear on television?

Mr. SMITH. Looked blond.

Mr. BALL. Were you later shown a picture of Oswald?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. By whom?

Mr. SMITH. FBI agent.

Mr. BALL. What was the color of the hair in the picture?

Mr. SMITH. Brown.

Mr. BALL. What did you see? What did you tell the FBI agent about the appearance of the man in the picture?

Mr. SMITH. I said it looked more like him than it did on television.

Mr. BALL. And did you think when he showed you the picture that it looked anything like the man you had seen running away?

Mr. SMITH. What I saw of him; yes.

Mr. BALL. First time you ever saw this man was after you heard these shots?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that right? You had never seen him walking?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. BALL. You hadn't seen him walking in front of the house----

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where you were standing?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of clothes did he have on when he shot the officer?

Mr. SMITH. He had on dark pants--just a minute. He had on dark pants and a sport coat of some kind. I can't really remember very well.

Mr. BALL. I will show you a coat----

Mr. SMITH. This looks like it.

Mr. BALL. This is Commission's Exhibit 162, a grey, zippered jacket. Have you ever seen this before?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that looks like what he had on. A jacket.

Mr. BALL. That is the jacket he had on?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, when the deposition is completed it will be written up and you will have a right to look it over and sign it, or if you want to you can waive your signature. They will accept your waiver and send it on to the Commission without it. Do you have any choice on that?

Mr. SMITH. I will sign it. It don't make any difference to me.

Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive your signature?

Mr. SMITH. Ever what that means.

Mr. BALL. That means you don't have to sign it.

Mr. SMITH. I will sign it.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to sign it?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; I will sign it.

Mr. BALL. Okay. Do you have a telephone number?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, the young lady will notify you when you can come in and sign it.

I thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE JEFFERSON APPLIN, JR.

The testimony of George Jefferson Applin, Jr. was taken at 4:05 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, Mr. Applin, and we--raise your right hand to be sworn, please.

Mr. APPLIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give for this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. APPLIN. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you be seated, please, and state your name for the record.

Mr. APPLIN. George Jefferson Applin, Jr.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. APPLIN. 714 East Hull, Denison, Tex.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, my occupation, common laborer, but I am working for Phillips 66 there in Denison, service station.

Mr. BALL. You have come into Dallas from Denison, haven't you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, that is about 68 miles?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you are entitled to get compensation for your transportation?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And we'll have your name and address in the record, and I will try to make arrangements for that information to take care of your expenses. You came in when? This morning?

Mr. APPLIN. No; it was about 15 minutes after 2 o'clock, when I came in here.

Mr. BALL. Came into Dallas?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And----

Mr. APPLIN. No; I was here at 2 o'clock, but I had a flat and my car stalled on me about three or four blocks over.

Mr. BALL. And you intend to return home tonight, do you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. So, you won't have any hotel expense, will you?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school, and how far in school, what you have done since then?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was born in Madona Hospital in Denison, and lived there pretty near all my life.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. APPLIN. Twenty-two.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I went to LaMar School and junior high.

Mr. BALL. And how far did you go? Finished junior high?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I went to the eighth grade.

Mr. BALL. Have you been beyond the eighth grade?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I helped my daddy some, and got odd jobs and stuff.

Mr. BALL. Live with your mother now?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I do. I live with my parents.

Mr. BALL. Your mother and father?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You have been doing mostly common labor, have you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; mostly common labor.

Mr. BALL. Ever been in trouble with the law of any sort?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. BALL. What kind of trouble?

Mr. APPLIN. Burglary.

Mr. BALL. When was that?

Mr. APPLIN. In 1963.

Mr. BALL. Did you do any time?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I got a probated sentence for it.

Mr. BALL. That is the only trouble you have ever had?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, for--except for minor traffic violations.

Mr. BALL. Outside of that you haven't had any trouble?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, November 22, 1963, were you in Dallas?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe I was.

Mr. BALL. What were you doing here?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was working for the Rollform Corp.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell it?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I have got one of their checks--check stubs here in my pocket, I believe. At least I think I have. Here it is [indicating].

Mr. BALL. What were you doing in Dallas?

Mr. APPLIN. Working.

Mr. BALL. Working here in Dallas?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was working as, open-head crane operator, and painter and front-end loader.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to the picture show that afternoon?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to be off duty that day?

Mr. APPLIN. They was installing a new cutting press for the rollers, and they did not need me, so, they let me off for 2 days.

Mr. BALL. For 2 days?

Mr. APPLIN. For 2 days.

Mr. BALL. What did you do? Go to the picture show?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. What time of day did you go there?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, actually, I went to--I was over in Oak Cliff, around about, I guess, about 12 o'clock, I imagine is what time it was. I was there and the show hadn't opened up, so, I was sitting in my car listening to the radio up until the time that the show opened.

Mr. BALL. You went in the show when it opened?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Paid your way?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you take your seat? What part of the theatre?

Mr. APPLIN. About six rows down, I got in the middle aisle, about the middle of the chairs.

Mr. BALL. Middle aisle, six rows from the rear?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you were how far from the middle aisle into the row of seats?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, about--seemed quite a little while since I thought about this. I guess I was about four or five seats over from the aisle.

Mr. BALL. From the aisle. Now, did something happen there during that showing of that picture that you remember?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I know this much, Audie Murphy introduced the picture.

Mr. BALL. Then some police officers came in there?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; the lights came on.

Mr. BALL. Then what do you remember happening?

Mr. APPLIN. I seen the officers come down the right-hand aisle.

Mr. BALL. From the rear, or from the front?

Mr. APPLIN. From the rear.

Mr. BALL. Come in from the screen side, or the place you enter?

Mr. APPLIN. Where you enter it.

Mr. BALL. From your rear?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; came in on the right-hand aisle over against the wall.

Mr. BALL. Did he have anything in his hands?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe he had a shotgun. Might have been a rifle.

Mr. BALL. What else did you see?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, when I seen him, I was wondering what was the matter and what about the lights.

Mr. BALL. You got up and ran up to the front?

Mr. APPLIN. Went to the front to find out what was happened--was happened--happening. As I was going up an officer passed me going down and I stopped to find out.

Mr BALL. Did you ask him?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; he passed me before I got a chance to ask him.

Mr. BALL. What did he do?

Mr. APPLIN. Went to the front and turned around and started back up.

Mr. BALL. Started back up the aisle?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Towards you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see him do?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, he stopped and asked two boys sitting down in the front, asked them to stand up and----

Mr. BALL. Did he search them?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they shuffled them down.

Mr. BALL. Did he search you?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; they came on up to Oswald, where he was sitting.

Mr. BALL. Where was he sitting?

Mr. APPLIN. I--he was sitting, I guess, about 3 or 4 rows down.

Mr. BALL. You mean from the rear of the theatre?

Mr. APPLIN. From the rear.

Mr. BALL. And how far over from the aisle?

Mr. APPLIN. I guess that would be about three seats. They was sitting about two or three seats.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him do?

Mr. APPLIN. He--started off, the officer said, "Will you stand up, please?" And he stood up.

Mr. BALL. How close were you to the officer and this man when you heard the officer say, "Stand up"?

Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was about--it was not over four seats down from the back, rear.

Mr. BALL. Were you at the rear?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I was at the rear of the show.

Mr. BALL. You were at the rear of the show?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; well, there was a partition here. A partition here [indicating], and there was about, oh, I guess about four rows down from me.

Mr. BALL. All right. In other words, the officer hadn't reached you yet, when he asked Oswald to stand up?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You stood up and went toward the rear of the theatre, did you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And going to ask the officer what was going on?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then, you were about four rows away from where Oswald was----

Mr. APPLIN. Apprehended.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear the officer, what he said?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; heard mainly what both of them said.

Mr. BALL. What did the officer say?

Mr. APPLIN. The officer said, "Will you stand up, please."

Mr. BALL. What did the man say?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, he just stood up.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't hear him say anything at that time.

Mr. BALL. And what happened then?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, when he stood up, the officer stepped over to search him down. The officer, Oswald, or the man, took a swing at him. When he did, the officer grabbed him.

Mr. BALL. Took a swing at him with his fist?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. With his left or right?

Mr. APPLIN. Right fist.

Mr. BALL. Took a swing at him and what happened then?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, the officer, I heard him say, "Here he is." And during the proceeding of that, I guess about 5 or 10 seconds later, there was another--I think it was two officers, or one, passed me and ran down there to him.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a gun?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, the gun didn't come into view until after about four or five officers were there.

Mr. BALL. Then did you see a gun?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; but only--there was one gun. The pistol. It came into view before any of the other officers got there.

Mr. BALL. That is what I mean. What do you say happened about that? Who pulled a gun?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, anyhow, the officer was facing this way [indicating] and Oswald was facing this way [indicating]. And then the gun was pointed out that way [indicating].

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute. I can't follow you when you say it was "this way," and "this way," sir. You told me that this officer asked Oswald to stand up?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he stand up?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. Then did he put his hand some place on Oswald?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; along about----

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. APPLIN. I guess about his hips.

Mr. BALL. Then what did Oswald do?

Mr. APPLIN. He took a right-hand swing at him.

Mr. BALL. What did the officer do?

Mr. APPLIN. The officer grabbed him then.

Mr. BALL. Had you seen the pistol up to that time?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; there was not one in view then.

Mr. BALL. How soon after that did you see the pistol?

Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was about--I guess it was about 2 or 3 seconds.

Mr. BALL. Who pulled the pistol?

Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was Oswald, because--for one reason, that he had on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to the gun.

Mr. BALL. What did the officer do?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, the officer was scuffling with him there, and----

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, about the only thing I heard was the snap of the gun and the officer saying, "Here he is."

Mr. BALL. You heard the snap of a gun?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are you familiar with guns?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, yes, sir; I am familiar with a few guns.

Mr. BALL. Pistols? Have you ever shot a pistol?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I have shot my daddy's nine-shot .22 pistol.

Mr. BALL. Sounded like a hammer of a pistol falling?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened after that? You say several officers came down?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they started wrestling and scuffling with him.

Mr. BALL. How many of them?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, there was about five officers, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any officers strike him?

Mr. APPLIN. I seen one strike him with a shotgun.

Mr. BALL. How did he do it?

Mr. APPLIN. He grabbed the muzzle of the gun and drawed it back and swung and hit him in the back.

Mr. BALL. With what?

Mr. APPLIN. With the butt end of the gun.

Mr. BALL. Looked like a hard blow?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; it--I guess it was. You could--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And he struck Oswald where?

Mr. APPLIN. In the back.

Mr. BALL. What part of the back?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, somewheres along in the middle of the back, somewheres.

Mr. BALL. With the butt end of a shotgun?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the officer strike Oswald with his fist?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I do not believe so.

Mr. BALL. Now, how many officers were struggling with Oswald when you saw the officer strike him with the butt end of the shotgun?

Mr. APPLIN. I believe about four.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see them handcuff Oswald?

Mr. APPLIN. Uhuh?

Mr. BALL. Did you see them handcuff the man?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't actually see the handcuffing.

Mr. BALL. What did you see them do after the struggle?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, they were scuffling, and they were over to the middle, about the far side of the aisle, and come up the other side of the aisle.

Mr. BALL. With the man?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And then when they went out, did they come out through the doors?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they came up through and one of the officers hollered out, "Don't let nobody see him," and they came in right behind me.

Mr. BALL. In behind you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And went on out?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you go out and follow them out?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I went out to the candy counter out there and the officer said, if there's anybody in there that seen it--and asked--there was about two or three, the candyman himself, and said--that one boy said that he seen him, through the front--I mean out from behind the picture where it came out--supposed to came out behind the picture.

Mr. BALL. Did you give them your name there?

Mr. APPLIN. He asked my name and address and where I was staying at the time.

Mr. BALL. Later did you go down to the police station and make a statement?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, it was after--I guess after they got everybody's name. I rode down with three officers.

Mr. BALL. That same day, did you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't go back to the picture show?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did. There was a patrolman that carried me back out and I was going to see the rest of it, but I never did get back in time to.

Mr. BALL. You didn't get to see the show?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I seen part of it, but I didn't get to see all of it.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see the man they arrested at the theatre?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't see him after that.

Mr. BALL. Now, I have talked to you a little while before we took your deposition, didn't I?

Mr. APPLIN. I wasn't actually; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, I mean, you and I came up----

Mr. APPLIN. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And we sat and talked a few minutes?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BALL. And you have told us everything that you told me before----

Mr. APPLIN. This was taken here?

Mr. BALL. Before it was taken.

Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe I did.

Mr. BALL. This will be written up, and you will have a chance to read it and sign it. You can waive your signature and we'll forward it to the Commission just as you have said it here in the way this young lady has written it up. Does it make any difference to you now?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; it don't make any difference. Anyway you do it.

Mr. BALL. You are waiving your signature then, are you?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I will sign it if you want me to.

Mr. BALL. You don't have to if you don't want to. In other words, but you may if you want to.

Mr. APPLIN. I can sign it. If I sign it then you won't have any trouble with it, will you?

Mr. BALL. Well, no.

Mr. APPLIN. Well, then, I will sign it for you then.

Mr. BALL. Okay, fine, that is all, Mr. Applin.

Mr. APPLIN. But, there is one thing puzzling me.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. APPLIN. And I don't even know if it has any bearing on the case, but there was one guy sitting in the back row right there where I was standing at, and I said to him, I said, "Buddy, you'd better move. There is a gun." And he says--just sat there. He was just back like this. Just like this. Just watching.

Mr. BALL. Just watching the show?

Mr. APPLIN. No; I don't think he could have seen the show. Just sitting just like this, just looking at me.

Mr. BALL. Did you know the man?

Mr. APPLIN. No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Ever seen him since?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; didn't. I tapped him on the shoulder and said, "Buddy, you'd better move," and----

Mr. BALL. Were you scared?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, when I seen the gun I was.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police officer about this man?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; at the time, I didn't think about it, but I did tell--I didn't even think about it when I went before the Secret Service man, but I did tell one of the FBI men about it.

Mr. BALL. Okay. I guess that is all, Mr. Applin. Thank you very much.

Mr. APPLIN. All right.

TESTIMONY OF RAY HAWKINS

The testimony of Ray Hawkins was taken at 9:50 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you raise your hand and take the oath, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HAWKINS. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. HAWKINS. Ray Hawkins.

Mr. BALL. And your address, where do you live now?

Mr. HAWKINS. 7319 Cortland as of today. I am moving today.

Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation?

Mr. HAWKINS. I am with the Dallas Police Department. I am an accident investigator.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. HAWKINS. It will be 11 years in June.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself--where you were born and your education and what you have done?

Mr. HAWKINS. I was born in Dallas at Parkland Hospital. I attended the Dallas schools except for 2 years when I lived in Denison and I served 3 years and 4 months in the Coast Guard. I worked at the post office after getting out of the service and then I worked for Dallas Power & Light before coming to the police department some 11 years ago. I have been in the traffic division 8 years last month, which my primary duty is accident investigation. Before this time I served about 3 years in the radio patrol division.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were on duty, were you?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours of duty?

Mr. HAWKINS. I was working the 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. shift that day.

Mr. BALL. And were you assigned some special duty because of the presence of the President in the city?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; on this day I was working accidents, which is my regular duty. I was working with an officer by the name of Elmer Baggett who had just transferred back into accident and I was giving him a refresher course in the regular duties of accident investigation.

Mr. BALL. Do you work in uniform?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. BALL. In the regular patrolman's uniform?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes--the regular patrolman uniform.

Mr. BALL. You drive an automobile?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes; I do.

Mr. BALL. Is it a marked police car?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes--it is the blue and white marked police car.

Mr. BALL. And where were you around 1 o'clock?

Mr. HAWKINS. I'm not sure on the time--around it--if it was about the time of the assassination--I was--we were on an accident in the 2500 block of North Industrial, or in that vicinity, the first I had heard anything about this accident.

Mr. BALL. You and your partner?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear the President had been killed?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you later hear that Officer Tippit had been killed?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you make a note of the time, or do you have any memory of the approximate time that you heard that report?

Mr. HAWKINS. I would say in the vicinity of around 1 p.m.--I'm not sure what time it was, because I didn't make any notes. As I said, we were on an accident at the time--I cleared from the call about the time we heard this information.

Mr. BALL. And you got that information over the police radio?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Tell me, did you receive any instructions as to what to do?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I did not. They called--I heard a citizen come in on the radio and state that an officer had been shot and it looked like he was dead. We had just finished the accident at this time and I was driving an officer, Baggett, and I proceeded to Oak Cliff to the general vicinity of the call after checking out with the dispatcher, stating that we were proceeding in that direction.

We arrived in Oak Cliff and there were several squads in the general vicinity of where the shooting had occurred--different stories had come out that the person was--the suspect had been seen in the immediate vicinity.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to 10th and Patton?

Mr. HAWKINS. We drove by 10th and Patton--we didn't stop at the location.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?

Mr. HAWKINS. We circled the vicinity around Jefferson and Marsalis and in that area, talking to several people on the street, asking if they had seen anyone running up the alley or running down the street, and then they received a call, or I believe Officer Walker put out a call that he had just seen a white man running to the Oak Cliff Library, at which time we proceeded to this location. Officer Hutson had gotten into the car with us when we arrived in Oak Cliff, and there were three of us in the squad car--Officer Baggett, Officer Hutson, and myself.

Mr. BALL. Hutson is also a patrolman?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. A uniformed patrolman?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; he is a three-wheel officer. We went to the library and this turned out to be an employee of the library who had heard of the news and was apparently running in the library to tell the other employees there.

We then, after this checked out, we then continued circling in the area around 10th and Patton and Marsalis and Jefferson.

We then heard on the police radio that a suspicious person was at the Texas Theatre, and at this time we proceeded to the theatre.

Mr. BALL. Where did you park?

Mr. HAWKINS. I parked my squad car in the alley at the rear of the theatre.

Mr. BALL. Then, what did you do?

Mr. HAWKINS. Officer--I believe Officer McDonald was at the back door at the time and Officer Hutson and Captain Westbrook and Officer Walker and myself went in the rear door, all went to the rear door, and at this time we saw a white male there and began talking to him and he identified himself as being the manager of a shoe store next door and that he was the person who had noted the suspicious acting on the suspect, and he at that time was brought into the rear of the theatre and on the stage and he pointed the person out sitting about three or four rows from the back of the theatre on the right hand or the south side.

Mr. BALL. That would be near the right aisle as you face the screen?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; near the right aisle as you face the screen about four rows from the rear of the theatre.

Mr. BALL. And how many seats over from the right aisle?

Mr. HAWKINS. I would say probably three or four--I don't remember exactly.

Mr. BALL. Now, at that time you were standing behind the screen, were you?

Mr. HAWKINS. No; we had walked out onto the stage itself and could see the people sitting in the show--the house lights had been turned on--the show was still going on, but we did walk out onto the stage.

Mr. BALL. And did you later learn that the man's name was Brewer?

Mr. HAWKINS. The man whom I had been talking to?

Mr. BALL. Yes; the shoe salesman.

Mr. HAWKINS. I don't remember what his name is, but I think he did identify himself and we did have his name.

Mr. BALL. Were you armed?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. With what?

Mr. HAWKINS. I had my Service .38 revolver.

Mr. BALL. Did you have it out or was it in your holster?

Mr. HAWKINS. I believe I had it out.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with it?

Mr. HAWKINS. At that time, after he pointed out the person, Officer McDonald had started up the left aisle and he stopped and talked to two boys who were sitting about three rows in front of where Oswald was sitting. I continued up the north aisle or the left aisle as you would walk toward the screen, and then Officer McDonald had walked on back to this person who was seated back there.

Mr. BALL. He was--he walked over to the right aisle, did he?

Mr. HAWKINS. He walked from the right aisle and came in from the person's right. I was about three rows from--still in the same aisle, on the left aisle and about three rows from McDonald and Oswald when I heard him say, "I've got him," or "This is it," or some words to that effect.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. HAWKINS. Not at that time; no, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mr. HAWKINS. They had a scuffle and I immediately ran to the location. Officer Hutson had come in the aisle behind Oswald and McDonald and Officer Walker had come in on the left-hand side and I came up in the front. I grabbed his left hand and then immediately took my handcuffs out and put them on his left hand and we brought his right arm around as soon as the gun had been removed and handcuffed his right arm with both hands behind his back.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see Oswald strike Officer McDonald?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. With what--with his fist?

Mr. HAWKINS. It appeared he struck him with his fist.

Mr. BALL. Which one?

Mr. HAWKINS. Right fist.

Mr. BALL. What was Officer McDonald doing at that time?

Mr. HAWKINS. I remember seeing him standing beside Oswald, and when I arrived where they were, both of them were down in the seat--Oswald and McDonald had both fallen down into the seat, and very shortly after I got there, a gun was pulled, came out of Oswald's belt and was pulled across to their right, or toward the south aisle of the theatre.

Officer McDonald grabbed the pistol, and the best I can remember, Sergeant Hill, who had gotten there, said, "I've got the gun," and he took the gun and we handcuffed Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any snap of the hammer?

Mr. HAWKINS. I heard something that I thought was a snap. I didn't know whether it was a snap of a pistol--I later learned that they were sure it was. I didn't know whether it was a snap of the gun or whether it was in the seats someone making the noise.

Mr. BALL. There was some noise you heard?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. BALL. You couldn't identify it?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I don't think so--I don't think I could say for sure.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I didn't see anyone strike him. They had, as I said, they had gotten back into the seat and officer Hutson had grabbed Oswald from behind and Officer Walker had him by the left arm and the gun went across and McDonald had grabbed him by the right hand and Sergeant Hill grabbed the gun and at this time I handcuffed his left hand. There were several officers shortly after that arrived at the scene.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer there with a shotgun?

Mr. HAWKINS. I don't recall any officers. I know I had seen some officers with a shotgun, but I don't recall whether any officer had one, but it is possible that they did have.

Mr. BALL. The men who were struggling with Oswald were first, McDonald, and you----

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And who was the other man?

Mr. HAWKINS. Now, Officer Hutson had gotten behind Oswald prior to the time I got there and then also Walker was on the left-hand side--on the left hand.

Mr. BALL. Oswald's left?

Mr. HAWKINS. Oswald's left.

Mr. BALL. And who was on the right?

Mr. HAWKINS. McDonald.

Mr. BALL. And what about Bob Carroll, did he come in there too?

Mr. HAWKINS. Well, I'm sure Bob was in there. I couldn't say where he was exactly or--I do remember Sergeant Hill being there, and I believe he said, "I've got the gun." I think I read an account of where Bob Carroll may have had the gun, but I was under the impression it was Sergeant Hill. I'm sure Bob was there, but I don't know exactly--it was all happening pretty fast.

Mr. BALL. Did any one of these men you have described around Oswald have a shotgun?

Mr. HAWKINS. I don't believe any of them--at the time that they were standing directly around Oswald, had a shotgun--I may be mistaken.

Mr. BALL. A witness testified yesterday that while they were struggling with Oswald, a police officer took a gun and took it by the muzzle and struck Oswald in the back with the rifle butt; did you see anything like that?

Mr. HAWKINS. No; I did not. I couldn't say that it did not happen. I didn't see from the back, but I do know that Officer Hutson was standing behind him and had grabbed him around the neck and I'm sure that he did not have a gun.

Mr. BALL. Hutson did not have a shotgun?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald say anything during this struggle?

Mr. HAWKINS. I don't recall anything he said during the struggle--I do recall some remarks that he made about--that he had certain rights and that he would see "about this police brutality" or some remark he made about--that he had rights and he wasn't being handled right or something of this nature.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald during the struggle except in the grabbing and holding of him--I know you grabbed him and held him, but did you see anybody strike him a blow?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I did not see anyone strike him a blow.

Mr. BALL. Afterwards, did you notice any marks on Oswald's face?

Mr. HAWKINS. I did notice, not at that time, but I did notice, however, after I saw him on television that he had a bruise on the right side of his face.

Mr. BALL. Did you see that bruise there at the theatre?

Mr. HAWKINS. Not at the theatre; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you with the group of officers that took him from the theatre?

Mr. HAWKINS. I was walking with the group--I was not immediately beside Oswald. At this time, I believe, Officer Walker and possibly Officer Lyons and Paul Bentley and I don't remember, but I believe those three were one of the three and maybe Sergeant Hill. We handcuffed him and after we had handcuffed him we walked him out to the left and immediately to the car in front. They put him in the car--I was standing beside the car and then I worked traffic for them to get out.

Mr. BALL. As he was going out of the theatre, was he shouting or yelling?

Mr. HAWKINS. Was he?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. HAWKINS. I don't remember him saying anything except this about that he had certain rights and the police brutality.

Mr. BALL. Did he say that as he was leaving the theatre, or did he say that in the theatre?

Mr. HAWKINS. It seemed like we were still in the theatre. After we got outside, I couldn't hear him say anything. There was a large crowd out front and they all started yelling when we came out the front door.

Mr. BALL. A witness testified yesterday that as the police brought Oswald from the theatre to the car, that two men were standing beside him, were walking beside him, and that another officer had his arm around his neck and under his chin so as to close his mouth--did you see anything like that?

Mr. HAWKINS. I don't remember seeing this. I walked out--the best I can remember--I was behind the group and there were at least three officers, I am sure, directly around him and maybe more, but I was behind him and walked up behind him--I don't recall anyone having him around the neck at that time.

Mr. BALL. Did you do any more work on the investigation of the assassination of the President or the killing of Tippit?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; the only thing I did following this--we went to the personnel bureau and made a statement, or wrote a report on the arrest, and that was the last thing I had done.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the pistol at the personnel bureau?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you see McDonald mark it?

Mr. HAWKINS. Did I see McDonald mark it?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; McDonald, and I believe Sergeant Hill marked it or possibly Bob Carroll. There were, I believe, two people who marked it.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody unload the gun?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; not unload it. I believe the gun was unloaded whenever I got there, but they put Oswald in the car and three or four men rode with him and then Officer Baggett and I came back to the station and it was probably 30 to 45 minutes after they got there that we arrived at the station.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the bullets?

Mr. HAWKINS. I saw the bullets--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever examine them closely?

Mr. HAWKINS. I looked at them and one of them appeared to have a small indentation where it looked like it might have been struck and did not fire.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all, officer.

Now, this will be written up and you can read it and sign it, or you can waive signature--just as you wish--which do you prefer?

Mr. HAWKINS. I would just as soon sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right, we will have you sign it.

Mr. HAWKINS. All right.

Mr. BALL. Thank you very much.

Mr. HAWKINS. Will you notify me when you want me to sign it?

Mr. BALL. We will give you a telephone call.

Mr. HAWKINS. You will give me a telephone call?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HAWKINS. All right.

Mr. BALL. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF L. D. MONTGOMERY

The testimony of L. D. Montgomery was taken at 4:50 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I do.

Mr. BALL. Be seated and state your name, please.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. L. D. Montgomery.

Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Police officer.

Mr. BALL. You are called before the Commission to give such information as you have as to the assassination of President Kennedy, and you have been advised by your superiors, have you, that we have requested your presence here?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I have been over here twice now already.

Mr. BALL. You have been here before?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I gave one deposition on this.

Mr. BALL. And that had to do with what subject?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, they covered about all of it, really.

Mr. BALL. Have you already testified as to the search of this Texas State Book Depository?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, sir; some of that was in there--yes, sir. Mr. Griffin took it.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask you about the time you went down to the sixth floor of the Texas State Book Depository?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I discussed all that, but I don't believe it's in that deposition; now, I don't believe it was in the typed deposition.

Mr. BALL. I had better ask you the questions now.

How long have you been on the police force?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I have been on down there 9 years.

Mr. BALL. What is your job?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Detective in the homicide bureau.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work that day?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let me see, that morning I was working 8 to 4.

Mr. BALL. And to what work were you assigned?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, that particular morning at that time we was trying to round up some hijackers.

Mr. BALL. Were you sent down to the Texas State Book Depository?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get there?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I got there, I guess--it was about 12:40 or 12:45.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do when you got there?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I reported to the sixth floor there.

Mr. BALL. Did you take part in the search of the sixth floor?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, first I reported to Captain Fritz, my partner and I, and he assigned us to this position over there where the boxes were.

Mr. BALL. Where was that?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It would be what--the southeast corner of the building--over there from where the shooting took place.

Mr. BALL. Well, was that before the cartridges had been found or afterwards?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; they had been found when we got there.

Mr. BALL. When you got there they had been found already?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What about the rifle, had it been found?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; it hadn't.

Mr. BALL. The rifle was found after you got there?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything else over in the southeast corner of that sixth floor?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, sir, as I say, there was a lot of boxes and there was a sack and there was this pieces of chicken.

Mr. BALL. Was there a piece of chicken over there?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir--there was chicken bones and what not--it looked like somebody had been eating chicken there.

Mr. BALL. Where was that?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was right there with the boxes--right there on the floor.

Mr. BALL. On the floor?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, let me see, there was one piece of chicken on a box and there was a piece on the floor--just kind of scattered around right there.

Mr. BALL. Where was the paper sack?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see--the paper sack--I don't recall for sure if it was on the floor or on the box, but I know it was just there--one of those pictures might show exactly where it was.

Mr. BALL. I don't have a picture of the paper sack.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. You don't? Well, it was there--I can't recall for sure if it was on one of the boxes or on the floor there.

Mr. BALL. It was over in what corner?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It would be the southeast corner of the building there where the shooting was.

Mr. BALL. Did you turn the sack over to anybody or did you pick it up?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes--let's see--Lieutenant Day and Detective Studebaker came up and took pictures and everything, and then we took a Dr. Pepper bottle and that sack that we found that looked like the rifle was wrapped up in.

Mr. BALL. Now, where was the Dr. Pepper bottle?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was over a little more to the west of that window.

Mr. BALL. There was a sack of chicken bones with that--near that Dr. Pepper bottle?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; the Dr. Pepper bottle, the best I can recall, was sitting over there by itself.

Mr. BALL. Where was the sack with the chicken in it?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was right around where the boxes were--where the hulls there were.

Mr. BALL. The picture was taken of the sack by Mr. Studebaker, and he said it was the third set of windows near the little two-wheel truck?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Over there by the Dr. Pepper bottle.

Mr. BALL. Correct.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I was thinking it was right there--it was probably that other sack I'm thinking about--the one we found on the floor there that was used.

Mr. BALL. Here are two pictures, which are Exhibits H and I in the Studebaker depositions, which show the paper sack and the Dr. Pepper bottle and a two-wheel truck, and that is in Exhibit H, and Exhibit I shows the Dr. Pepper bottle and a two-wheel truck.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Is this the sack right here, now?

Mr. BALL. That's right--do you remember that?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I don't remember the sack being right there--I remember it was there somewhere, but exactly--I don't.

Mr. BALL. Evidently you don't know?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, was there some more chicken some place there also?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes--there would be some more chicken over here around where the hulls were found.

Mr. BALL. Now, I will show you a picture of----

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I know there was one piece laying up on top of the box there.

Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is Exhibit J, which shows some boxes in the picture that's in the southeast corner there.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me where the chicken was?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I believe it was right up on these boxes right along in there. There's some boxes coming along in there.

Mr. BALL. Coming along in there--you mean it's outside of the view of the pictures?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; right along in here.

Mr. BALL. And that would be to the north, of that point?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see on top of those boxes?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. There was one piece of chicken there.

Mr. BALL. Partially eaten?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I believe it was partially eaten--on that picture right there--I was just looking at.

Mr. BALL. That's Exhibit J.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Right over here is where we found that long piece of paper that looked like a sack, that the rifle had been in.

Mr. BALL. Does that have a number--that area--where you found that long piece of paper?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It's No. 2 right here.

Mr. BALL. You found the sack in the area marked 2 on Exhibit J to the Studebaker deposition. Did you pick the sack up?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Which sack are we talking about now?

Mr. BALL. The paper sack?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. The small one or the larger one?

Mr. BALL. The larger one you mentioned that was in position 2.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You picked it up?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Wait just a minute--no; I didn't pick it up. I believe Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check it for prints.

Mr. BALL. Did you question any witnesses that day?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see--that particular day--no, sir; I don't believe I talked to a witness that day.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses at any time?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Not to the assassination--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to witnesses that had anything to do with the shooting of Tippit?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, we went out and got two of them and brought them down.

Mr. BALL. Who were they?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see, there was a taxicab driver--Whaley--one of them was Mr. Whaley and there was another one.

Mr. BALL. Was there a Mr. Scoggins?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. That could be his name--I just don't recall.

Mr. BALL. Do you have a report that you made of what you did?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I didn't take an affidavit from him--no, sir; I took one from Mr. Whaley.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you attend a showup?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; I didn't attend any showups.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No.

Mr. BALL. But you took an affidavit from Mr. Whaley?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. From Mr. Whaley--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you ever present at any time when Oswald was questioned?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.