Chapter III: Part 3

Mr. BELIN. Well, you left. What did you do when you were relieved from duty?

Mr. HUTSON. As I was being released, I heard the radio dispatcher come on the radio and give a Signal 19, and that a shooting involving a police officer in the 500 block of East Jefferson, and he came back on shortly and said to check both 500 East Jefferson and East Tenth, that they weren't sure on the exact location.

Mr. BELIN. Was this at about the time you were being released?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you first got the signal to go to Elm and Houston, did he say Elm and Houston?

Mr. HUTSON. Elm and Houston, that is the location I heard.

Mr. BELIN. How long do you feel that it took you to get from where you were on Main at that time?

Mr. HUTSON. I was in the 1800 block of Main Street, eastbound, and I made a turn and used my siren and red lights, and the maximum amount of time it could have taken me would be 3 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. So you got there in 3 minutes, and within 3 minutes after you heard the signal you were stopping people from going in?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head, yes?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how many minutes after the shooting you heard the first notice over the police radio?

Mr. HUTSON. No, I don't.

Mr. BELIN. At times you were working away from your police radio while you were picking up the signs, is that correct?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes; and you can't hear the radio from a distance.

Mr. BELIN. When you heard this news about this shooting in Oak Cliff--by the way, where was your regular station ordinarily?

Mr. HUTSON. I worked west of Vernon on Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. Is that Oak Cliff?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes; that is West Jefferson Boulevard.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you heard about the shooting?

Mr. HUTSON. I got on my motorcycle and I proceeded down through the triple underpass and up onto R. L. Thornton Freeway to Oak Cliff.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go?

Mr. HUTSON. I exited off Jefferson and went to the 400 block of East Jefferson Boulevard and began a search of the two-story house behind 10th Street where the officer had been shot.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. And after we searched this area, I got in the squad car with Officer Ray Hawkins, who was driving, and Officer Baggett was riding in the back seat.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you get inside the squad car?

Mr. HUTSON. The clutch on my motorcycle was burned out and I couldn't get any speed, and I just barely made it over there, and I didn't know whether I would be able to start and go or not.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HUTSON. We proceeded west on 10th Street to Beckley, and we pulled into the Mobil gas station at Beckley and 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. That is a Mobil gas station?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. And Officer Ray Hawkins and Officer Baggett went inside of the Mobil gas station. And I am not positive, but I think they used the telephone to call in.

I am not positive, but I believe they gave us a call for us to call. I mean their number to call in.

At the time they were in the service station, I heard the dispatcher give a call that the suspect was just seen running across the lawn at the Oak Cliff Branch Library at Marsalis and Jefferson.

I reached over and blew the siren on the squad car to attract the officers' attention, Officers Baggett and Hawkins, and they came running out of the service station and jumped in the car, and I told them to report to, I can't remember, Marsalis and Jefferson, the suspect was seen running across the lawn at the library.

We proceeded south on Beckley to Jefferson, and east on Jefferson to Marsalis, where we hit the ground and searched the area at the library for the suspect who was--a teenager had run across the lawn and into the basement of the library.

At this time, after we found out that this person wasn't involved, we returned to the squad car and began to drive west on Jefferson, west on East Jefferson, and as we approached the 100 block of East Jefferson, the dispatcher said on the radio, that a suspect was just seen entering the Texas Theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Now the suspect in the library, do you know who he was?

Mr. HUTSON. No; I don't. There were several officers at the location, including some constables from the constable's office in Oak Cliff at Beckley and 12th, and there were four or five persons that came out from the basement with their hands over their head.

One of them was a young boy there, and another officer or two checked him. A sergeant was there.

Mr. BELIN. Was that young boy the one that they thought was a suspect?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the young boy said he was doing there?

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I didn't interrogate him or talk to him.

Mr. BELIN. Then you heard about another report on the suspect, you say?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. Then we left that location as we were proceeding west on East Jefferson, and as we approached the 100 block of East Jefferson, the radio dispatcher said that a suspect had just entered the Texas Theatre.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, prior to that time had there been any recovery of any items of clothing?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did that occur?

Mr. HUTSON. That occurred while we were searching the rear of the house in the 400 block of East Jefferson Boulevard at the rear of the Texaco station. Behind cars parked on a lot at this location, a white jacket was picked up by another officer. I observed him as he picked it up, and it was stated that this is probably the suspect's jacket. The original description was that he was wearing a white jacket.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of jacket was it?

Mr. HUTSON. It looked like a white cloth jacket to me.

Mr. BELIN. Was it the zipper type?

Mr. HUTSON. I didn't see it that close. I was approximately 25 yards away from the officer who picked it up.

Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead, continue with your story. You heard about the suspect going into the Texas Theatre?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. HUTSON. I told Officer Hawkins to drive west on Jefferson. He didn't know the exact location of the Texas Theatre. And from west on Jefferson to north on South Zangs Boulevard, and to make a left turn to travel west on West Sunset the wrong direction, which is a one-way street, and then to cut back in across the parking lot at the rear of the theatre to the fire exit doors at the rear.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. We pulled up to this location and I was the first out of the car to hit the ground. As I walked up to the fire exit doors, Officer Hawkins and Baggett were getting out of the car, and the door to the theatre opened, and this unknown white male was exiting.

I drew my pistol and put it on him and told him to put up his hands and not to make a move, and he was real nervous and scared and said: "I am not the one. I just came back to open the door. I work up the street at the shoestore, and Julia sent me back to open the door so you could get in."

I walked up and searched him briefly and I could see by the description and his clothes that he wasn't the person we were looking for.

Then I entered the theatre from this door, and Officer Hawkins with me, and Officer Baggett stayed behind to cover the fire exit door.

We walked down the bottom floor of the theatre, and I was joined there by Officer Walker by me, and as we walked up the north aisle from the center section, I observed Officer McDonald walking up the south aisle from the center section, and we observed two suspects sitting near the front in the center section.

Mr. BELIN. You were on the right center or the left center?

Mr. HUTSON. I was on the left center.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the left center, and McDonald on the right center aisle?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes; and Officer Walker was with me on the left center aisle.

Officer McDonald and Walker searched these two suspects, had them stand up and searched them while I covered.

As soon as they were searched--well, I left out that part about the number of people sitting in the theatre on the lower floor. When I walked in, I noticed there were seven people I observed sitting on the lower floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you count them?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir; I counted them.

Mr. BELIN. All right, seven people. There were two people you noticed toward the front of the center section, right?

Mr. HUTSON. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then where were the other five?

Mr. HUTSON. There was two sitting in the center section near the front, and directly behind them, five rows from the back, and three seats over, I am not sure whether that was the third row--I put it in my report----

Mr. BELIN. You say you put it in your report. Is that your report dated December 3, 1963?

Mr. HUTSON. The third row from the back and the fifth seat.

Mr. BELIN. Was there another person there?

Mr. HUTSON. That was another person.

Mr. BELIN. Who was that?

Mr. HUTSON. That was Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't know it at the time?

Mr. HUTSON. I didn't know who it was; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then who else?

Mr. HUTSON. And directly behind him sitting against the back of the theatre was another man.

Mr. BELIN. In the back of the last row of the center section?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That accounts for four people. Where were the others?

Mr. HUTSON. There were two young boys.

Mr. BELIN. Where were they?

Mr. HUTSON. They were sitting back on the same row as that man, back row.

Mr. BELIN. Right center or left center?

Mr. HUTSON. They were sitting in the left as you face the screen, left center section.

Mr. BELIN. All right, that accounts for six of them, and the only other people was one person sitting over here to the right side toward the rear?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes; toward the rear.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how many people were upstairs, or didn't you count?

Mr. HUTSON. I couldn't tell, so many people up there, and so many policemen when I looked up. I don't have any idea.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened after you saw these two people towards the front of the center section? Were they searched?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. HUTSON. Then I proceeded up the aisle toward the back of the theatre, and McDonald was walking toward the back of the theatre in the right center section aisle.

As he approached this person sitting in the same row of seats, he approached this person. I approached from the row behind.

Mr. BELIN. You approached from the second row from the back?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you see happen?

Mr. HUTSON. I saw this person stand up, and McDonald and him became engaged in a struggle.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see who hit whom first?

Mr. HUTSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. You are shaking your head, no.

Mr. HUTSON. No, I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Okay.

Mr. HUTSON. The lights were down. The lights were on in the theatre, but it was dark.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. Visibility was poor.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen?

Mr. HUTSON. I saw McDonald down in the seat beside this person, and this person was in a half standing crouching position pushing down on the left side of McDonald's face, and McDonald was trying to push him off.

Mr. BELIN. This person was right-handed?

You have used a motion here that he was pushing on the left side of McDonald's face?

Mr. HUTSON. Right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. And McDonald was trying to hold him off with his hand.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. I reached over from the back of the seat with my right arm and put it around this person's throat.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. And pulled him back up on the back of the seat that he was originally sitting in.

At this time Officer C. T. Walker came up in the same row of seats that the struggle was taking place in and grabbed this person's left hand and held it.

Mr. BELIN. Okay.

Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand.

Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.

Mr. BELIN. Now you had your left hand, or was it McDonald's left hand, on the suspect's right hand?

Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was using both of his hands to hold onto this person's right hand.

Mr. BELIN. Okay.

Mr. HUTSON. And the gun was waving around towards the back of the seat, up and down, and I heard a snapping sound at one time.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of snapping sound was it?

Mr. HUTSON. Sounded like the snap of a pistol, to me, when a pistol snaps.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know which way the pistol was pointing when you heard the snap?

Mr. HUTSON. Was pointing toward the back of the seat.

Mr. BELIN. It was pointing toward the back of the seat?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes; toward the screen in the front of the theatre, in that direction.

Mr. BELIN. Wait a minute, now. Toward the screen?

Mr. HUTSON. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Toward the front of the theatre, or the back of the theatre?

Mr. HUTSON. Toward the front of the theatre, we will call, facing the screen.

Mr. BELIN. Was it aiming at anyone in particular?

Mr. HUTSON. No; not any officer in particular. The only one that could have came in the line of fire was Officer Ray Hawkins, who was walking up in the row of seats in front.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any people say anything? Did you hear the suspect say anything?

Mr. HUTSON. I don't remember hearing anybody say anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Officer McDonald say anything?

Mr. HUTSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. You are shaking your head no.

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what happened then?

Mr. HUTSON. The gun was taken from the suspect's hand by Officer McDonald and somebody else. I couldn't say exactly. They were all in on the struggle, and Officer Hawkins, in other words, he simultaneously, we decided to handcuff him.

We had restrained him after the pistol was taken, but he was still resisting arrest, and we stood him up and I let go of his neck at this time and took hold of his right arm and attempted to bring it back behind him, and Officer Hawkins and Walker and myself attempted to handcuff him.

At this time Sgt. Jerry Hill came up and assisted as we were handcuffing.

Then Captain Westbrook came in and gave the order to get him out of here as fast as you can and don't let anybody see him, and he was rushed out of the theatre.

I was in the row of seats behind. I saw Officer Walker and Sgt. Jerry Hill had ahold of him, and that is the last I ever saw him.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him down at the police station thereafter?

Mr. HUTSON. Oswald?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I never did see him again.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know this was Oswald?

Mr. HUTSON. After we finished up in the theatre, I went downtown and went into the office where they were writing up the report, and to tell them the part I took in the arrest of him, to get the information, and at this time they had his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, but all we knew is, he was probably the suspect that shot the officer.

Mr. BELIN. In the theatre did you know that he had any connection with the assassination?

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did the police stop hitting him?

Mr. HUTSON. I never did ever see them hit him.

Mr. BELIN. You never saw any police hit him?

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of about this incident that you haven't related here?

While you are thinking about it, I am going to get a piece of clothing here for a minute and I will be back.

Anything else, Officer, you can think of?

Mr. HUTSON. I can't think of anything else right now.

Mr. BELIN. I am showing you Commission Exhibit 162, which appears to be a jacket with a zipper. Does that look like the jacket you saw?

Mr. HUTSON. That looks like the jacket that was picked up by the officer behind the Texaco service station, behind the cars parked on the lot.

Mr. BELIN. How far were you from the officer when he picked it up?

Mr. HUTSON. Approximately 25 yards.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear what he said when he picked it up?

Mr. HUTSON. I heard something--someone make the statement that that looks like the suspect's jacket. He has thrown it down. He is not wearing it now.

Mr. BELIN. Where is this Texaco station?

Mr. HUTSON. It is in the 400 block of East Jefferson at the intersection. It is on the northeast corner of the intersection of Crawford and Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. How far north of Jefferson would this jacket have been when it was found?

Mr. HUTSON. One-half block.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know the name of the officer that found it?

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. What happened to the jacket?

Mr. HUTSON. The last time I saw this jacket, the officer had it in his possession.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who he gave it to?

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know if he gave it to Captain Westbrook?

Mr. HUTSON. I don't know. Captain Westbrook was there behind the house with us, and he was there at the time this was picked up with the man, but I don't know who had it in their hands. The only time I saw it was when the officer had it.

Mr. BELIN. Showing you Commission Exhibit 150, have you ever seen this before, or not?

Mr. HUTSON. It looks like the shirt that the person was wearing that we arrested in the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Officer, you have the right, if you want, to come back and read your deposition and sign it, or you can waive the signing and let the court reporter send it to us directly in Washington. Do you desire to do either one?

Mr. HUTSON. I will go ahead and sign it.

Mr. BELIN. The court reporter can get in touch with you at the Dallas Police Department, is that correct?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you very much for your cooperation, and please convey my thanks to your sergeant or captain, whoever is in charge.

Mr. HUTSON. All right, nice to have seen you all.

TESTIMONY OF C. T. WALKER

The testimony of C. T. Walker was taken at 1:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WALKER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. What is your name, please?

Mr. WALKER. C. T. Walker.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Walker?

Mr. WALKER. Accident investigations at the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. WALKER. I am 31 years old.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. WALKER. One child. One girl.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. WALKER. Five years in July.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do prior to that?

Mr. WALKER. I worked in Chance Vought Aircraft, in Grand Prairie.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?

Mr. WALKER. Stephenville, Tex.--I wasn't born there, I am sorry. I was born in Slaton, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?

Mr. WALKER. Slaton, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school?

Mr. WALKER. Stephenville, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Did you you go to high school there?

Mr. WALKER. I didn't finish high school.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you finish?

Mr. WALKER. Tenth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. WALKER. I went to work at that time for Consolidated Aircraft in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for them?

Mr. WALKER. Approximately 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. WALKER. Aircraft mechanic work.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. WALKER. I worked--I went back to Slaton, Tex., and worked for my uncle there for 1 year drilling irrigation wells.

Mr. BELIN. After that what did you do?

Mr. WALKER. I came back to Grand Prairie and went to work there and worked there 5-1/2 years.

Mr. BELIN. Doing what?

Mr. WALKER. Aircraft mechanic and electrical work.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. WALKER. I came to work for the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. When was that?

Mr. WALKER. 1959, July the 27th.

Mr. BELIN. And you have been there ever since?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; I was.

Mr. BELIN. Will you state where you were on duty around 12 or 12:30 or so on that day?

Mr. WALKER. I was at Jefferson and Tenth Street at the fire station.

Mr. BELIN. Is that in the Oak Cliff section there?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; it is.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing there?

Mr. WALKER. I was cruising the area and I had heard on the radio about the disturbance downtown, so I checked out at the fire station. I didn't check out. I just stopped and went in and listened to the news broadcast to find out in more detail what happened.

Mr. BELIN. Were you cruising alone at that time?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is it general procedure for officers cruising in the daytime to work alone or in pairs?

Mr. WALKER. Accident investigations, we work alone. That is day and night.

Mr. BELIN. Day and night?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What about nonaccident investigation? Do you know offhand?

Mr. WALKER. Radio patrol work, one man during the day. Second and third platoon, they work two men.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the second platoon would come to work about 4 in the afternoon?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Ever work with him at all?

Mr. WALKER. I believe I have. I can't recall. I worked at the same substation he did before I transferred downtown, and I knew him quite well. I talked to him. He worked at Austin, and I have talked to him there.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let's leave Officer Tippit for the moment and return to the fire station. You were there and you say you called in around shortly after you heard the news?

Mr. WALKER. Yes. I went directly there. I was about a block away or might have been in the block I don't recall exactly.

Mr. BELIN. You mean a block away from the fire station?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you called in?

Mr. WALKER. I didn't call in. I just went in there and looked. They have a television there, and they broadcast that the President had been shot.

I had my radio up so I could hear from the door, and I went back out to my car. They were sending squads downtown, Code 3.

And I don't recall, I don't believe they actually sent me. I just went on my own because they normally don't send us in this type of call.

Mr. BELIN. So you went on your own where?

Mr. WALKER. I went to the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. That is at Elm and Houston?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car?

Mr. WALKER. Right in front of the building.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you got your car parked?

Mr. WALKER. Went inside the building.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go inside?

Mr. WALKER. I went right inside the front doors there and the hallway there and I stayed in there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. WALKER. Well, there was squads of police upstairs supposedly searching the building out, and someone said they have enough upstairs, so I didn't go upstairs.

Mr BELIN. What did you do when you were downstairs?

Mr. WALKER. We were checking persons as they came in the building.

Mr. BELIN. Did you keep people from coming in or going out, or what?

Mr. WALKER. We didn't let anyone in or out except policemen.

Mr. BELIN. About how soon after you saw the telecast do you think you got down there?

Mr. WALKER. Ten or fifteen minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Was the building sealed off at that time?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; it was.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone tell you when they got it sealed off, or not?

Mr. WALKER. No; they didn't.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?

Mr. WALKER. I heard that an officer had been killed in Oak Cliff, had been shot, and I got back in my car and started off. A newsman ran up to the window and said, "Can I ride with you," and I let him get in the car and I went to Oak Cliff and 10th Street, and drove by the scene.

In fact, there was two newspapermen, but one got out at the scene where Officer Tippit was killed.

Mr. BELIN. Was Officer Tippit's car still there?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; it was still there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection--did you take a look at the car or not?

Mr. WALKER. I didn't really look real close.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any witnesses there?

Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't get out.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. WALKER. I started up cruising the area, and I went up the street that runs north and south and faces the, runs into the library at Jefferson and Marsalis, and I saw a white male running east across the lawn of the library.

I was still approximately three-fourths of the block from Jefferson, and he was even south of Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. How far would he have been from you then when you saw him?

Mr. WALKER. He was over a block.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. WALKER. I put out a broadcast on the air that there was a person fitting the description on the air that was seen running in front of the library, and I gave the location and said I will be around at the back. I ran around to the back of the library and other squads then surrounded the library.

Mr. BELIN. You were not the one that put out the first description of the suspect they sought?

Mr. WALKER. I didn't. The newspaperman was still with me at that time.

Mr. BELIN. What was the description, if you remember, over the radio as to what you were looking for?

Mr. WALKER. A white male, slender build, and had on a light-colored coat or shirt, and that is the best I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. WALKER. About 30 years old, I think he said.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Did you go into the library?

Mr. WALKER. As soon as the squads got there, I walked around with the other squads to the west entrance of the building, and we ordered everyone out of the building. They all came out with their hands up.

Mr. BELIN. Was this the upstairs?

Mr. WALKER. No; it is the downstairs. You had to go downstairs to get to it.

Mr. BELIN. Something like a basement?

Mr. WALKER. Yes. It is a semibasement, I would call it. And everyone came out, and I saw the person that had run in there, and he said that he had ran there to tell the other people about the shooting. And let's see, that he worked there, he told me he worked there and everything. I soon determined he wasn't the one.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. WALKER. I got back in my car and started cruising the area again. I went up and down the alleys and streets. And there was one incident that really didn't have anything to do with it. I guess I was cruising up the alley with the newspaperman in the car, and I saw a man in long white sleeves, white shirt, walking across the parking lot there of the church, and I couldn't see below his legs, and there was a picket fence there, and when he got about 30 feet from me, I stopped the car, and he was walking toward me, and I had my gun in my lap at the time, and I said, "What is your name?" And he just looked at me. And at that time I didn't know whether he had a rifle or what he had, and he just looked at me, and he bent over, and I stuck my gun in the window and he raised up and had a small dog and he said, "What did you say?" And of course that newspaperman said, "My God, I thought he was going to shoot us."

I said, "I thought he was reaching down for a rifle."

Of course, he reached down and picked up a little dog.

Then we got around to Beckley and 10th Street, still cruising the area, when I heard the call come over the radio that the suspect was supposed to be at the theatre on Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. Was this the Texas Theatre?

Mr. WALKER. Texas Theatre; yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. WALKER. I went in the alley up to the back door. When I arrived there, there was several officers there. There was a plainclothesman up on the ladder back there. I don't know what he was doing up there, but he was up on the ladder that goes up that door that is in the back. And there were several officers around the back of the theatre, and myself, and McDonald, and Officer Hutson went in the back door. And this man told us, or this boy told us that there was someone, said the person that he had seen was inside the theatre, and that he had changed seats several times, and he thought he was out there in the middle now.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he had seen him? Did he tell you what he had seen him do, or not?

Mr. WALKER. He said he seen him duck into the store where he worked, kind of looked back, and looked like he was running, and just run into the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he seemed to duck in the store at all?

Mr. WALKER. No; he didn't. He said he looked like he was scared.

Mr. BELIN. Then do you remember this man's name that you talked to?

Mr. WALKER. No; it was just for a second, and I went on past him.

Mr. BELIN. All right, this was at the back of the theatre?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone have a gun drawn when this man came?

Mr. WALKER. I had my gun out. I had my gun out when I walked in the back of the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have your gun as you continued walking through the back of the theatre?

Mr. WALKER. I walked--McDonald and I walked across the stage, and he walked across the farthest away. It would be the south aisle. And I jumped off there where the north aisle runs east and west, and we started up. Hutson went down the steps in front of both of us, and he was slightly in front of me.

Mr. BELIN. You are speaking about Officer T. A. Hutson and Officer M. N. McDonald and yourself?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. The three of you came in from the back?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; and there were probably a couple more, but I just don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. Those are the three you remember?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now as you faced the screen, were you going up the right center or the left center aisle?

Mr. WALKER. As I faced the screen, I would be going up the left.

Mr. BELIN. Was it the left center aisle or was it the far left aisle that you were going up?

Mr. WALKER. Be the far left aisle, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Next to the wall?

Mr. WALKER. No; there is no aisle exactly against the wall. There is a row of seats, and then an aisle, and the middle aisle, and then another row of seats.

Mr. BELIN. So you would be in the aisle, as you faced the screen, which would be to the left of the center row of seats?

Mr. WALKER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Okay; just tell what happened.

Mr. WALKER. There were two white males sitting approximately in the center of the show. The lights had come on, and I don't know at what point they come on.

Mr. BELIN. About how many people was seated down on the first floor?

Mr. WALKER. There were two in the middle, and then there was Oswald, who turned out to be Oswald--I didn't know at that time it was him--and two behind him, I believe. I think there was one in the aisle, in the seats to the right of the right aisle. I don't know how you describe it, south of the south aisle, what I call it.

Mr. BELIN. You were coming up the north aisle?

Mr. WALKER. And this other person was sitting over on the other side of the show.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall then a total of six people?

Mr. WALKER. That is all I recall seeing.

Mr. BELIN. The people behind the man that you later found out to be Oswald, how far were they behind?

Mr. WALKER. They were about three or four or five seats behind him.

Mr. BELIN. In what row were they?

Mr. WALKER. I believe they were in the last row, or maybe the next to the last.

Mr. BELIN. What row was Oswald in, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. WALKER. The best I recall, fourth or fifth aisle from me, from the back.

Mr. BELIN. Fourth or fifth row from the back?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you mentioned there were two people sitting together in the center?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You came up and approached those people?

Mr. WALKER. McDonald approached them from the----

Mr. BELIN. Right?

Mr. WALKER. Right center aisle, and I approached from the left center aisle.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have your gun drawn?

Mr. WALKER. I had it drawn, and I put it back in my holster.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you do that?

Mr. WALKER. I had to search him. As I got up to him, we had him stand up and we searched him with their hands up, and I had my gun in the holster. I searched the one on the left, and McDonald searched the one on the right.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at other people?

Mr. WALKER. I looked around. Of course, I didn't recognize anybody. I didn't know who they were.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. WALKER. I walked back up to the aisle that I had been going down, and McDonald walked out the aisle he had been walking down, and we approached the aisle where Oswald was sitting. McDonald approached him from his aisle, and Hutson, which was in front of me on the same aisle, had started in the seat toward Oswald, in the seat that runs behind him.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the row of seats that ran behind him?

Mr. WALKER. And he started down that way, and I was walking toward him slightly behind him in the same row of seats that Oswald was sitting.

Mr. BELIN. So you approached Oswald from Oswald's left, and McDonald approached Oswald from Oswald's right?

Mr. WALKER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Was Oswald sitting closer to McDonald, or you?

Mr. WALKER. Closer to McDonald. He was sitting in the third seat from McDonald's aisle.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what happened?

Mr. WALKER. McDonald approached him, and he said, I don't know exactly, I assumed he said, "Stand up!" And Oswald stood up.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. WALKER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was Oswald facing you as he stood up?

Mr. WALKER. No; he faced McDonald.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. WALKER. He put his hand up, not exactly as you would raise your hands to be searched, but more or less showing off his muscles, what I call it, kind of hunching his shoulders at the same time, and McDonald put his hand down to Oswald's pocket, it looked like to me, and McDonald's head was tilted slightly to the right, looking down in the right hand.

Mr. BELIN. Looking in whose?

Mr. WALKER. McDonald's right hand as he was searching, and he felt of his pocket, and Oswald then hit him, it appeared, with his left hand first, and then with his right hand. They was scuffling there, and Officer Hutson and I ran toward the back of Oswald and Hutson threw his arm around his neck, and I grabbed his left arm, and we threw him back over the seat.

At this time I didn't see any gun that was involved. I don't know whether we pulled Oswald away from McDonald for a split second or what, but he was thrown back against the seat, and then the next thing I saw, Oswald's hand was down on the gun in his belt there, and McDonald had came forward again and was holding his, Oswald's hand.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see by his belt?

Mr. WALKER. I saw his right hand. I had his left hand, you see.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?

Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.

Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?

Mr. WALKER. The revolver.

Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. WALKER. And it stayed there for a second or two. He didn't get it out. McDonald had come forward and was holding his hand.

Ray Hawkins was behind me to my left at that time, and whether or not he came at the same time we did or not, but he was there, and there was a detective.

Oswald had ahold of my shirt and he practically pulled off my nameplate by gripping it with his hand, and I was bent over, and I was in an awkward position, and I could see several hands on the gun.

The gun finally got out of his belt, and it was about waist high and pointed out at about a 45° angle.

I turned around and I was holding Oswald trying to get his arm up behind him in a hammerlock, and I heard it click. I turned around and the gun was still pointing at approximately a 45° angle. Be pointed slightly toward the screen, what I call.

Now Hawkins was in the general direction of the gun.

Mr. BELIN. When you heard a click, what kind of click was it?

Mr. WALKER. A real light click, real light.

Mr. BELIN. Was it a click of the seat?

Mr. WALKER. Well, I assume it was a click of a revolver on the shell, and that is when the gun was doing the most moving around. It was moving around in the general area, and they were still fighting. And some one said, "Let go of the gun," and Oswald said, "I can't."

And a detective, I don't recall who it was, there were so many people around by that time, the area was bursting with policemen, and it appeared to me that he reached over and pulled the gun away from everybody, pulled it away from everyone, best I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. Okay, what happened then?

Mr. WALKER. Ray Hawkins was on my left. He said, "Bring his arm around," and said, "I have the handcuffs."

He said, "Bring his arm around so I can get the cuffs on him."

I finally got his left arm around and I snapped the cuffs on it, and Hawkins went over the seat there and picked up, someone pulled his right arm around there, and Hawkins snapped the handcuffs on him, and turned him around and faced him, Oswald, north.

And Detective Bentley got on his left arm and I took his right arm, and we went out the aisle that I, which would be the left aisle, that I had came in, with Oswald, and walked him out the front.

He was hollering, "I protest this police brutality."

Mr. BELIN. All right. Let me ask you this. What is the fact as to whether you had seen police officers hitting Oswald?

Mr. WALKER. The only person I saw was McDonald. They were exchanging blows, and if he actually came in contact. He was to my back.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone other than McDonald hit Oswald?

Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hit Oswald?

Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did Hutson hit Oswald?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead. Did Oswald say, "I am not resisting arrest"? Do you remember him saying that at all, or don't you remember?

Mr. WALKER. The only thing he said later, I know, was, "I fought back there, but I know I wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun."

Mr. BELIN. In any event, you brought him down the lobby of the theatre?

Mr. WALKER. When we went out the front door, he started hollering, "I protest this police brutality."

People out there were hollering, "Kill the s.o.b." "Let us have him. We want him."

Mr. BELIN. At that time, did anyone connect him with the assassination of the President?

Mr. WALKER. Not unless the crowd had assumed that is who we were after, I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. When you were after him, you were after him for what?

Mr. WALKER. For the killing of Officer Tippit.

Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead.

Mr. WALKER. There was a plain car, police car out in front. The right door was open, and Bentley went in first, and Oswald come and then I. We sat in the back seat with him.

Sgt. Jerry Hill in the front, and two more detectives that I don't know who they were, that rode down, too.

There were five officers and Oswald in the car. We took him down.

Mr. BELIN. Any conversation take place? First of all, anything up until the time you got in the car that you think is important in any way?

Mr. WALKER. Not that I recall, no.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you got in the car and went down to the police station?

Mr. WALKER. As we were driving down there, yes; he said----

Mr. BELIN. Who was he?

Mr. WALKER. Oswald said, "What is this all about?" He was relating this all the time. He said, "I know my rights." That is what he was saying, "I know my rights."

And we told him that the police officer, that he was under arrest because the police officer, he was suspected in the murder of a police officer.

And he said, "Police officer been killed?"

And nobody said nothing. He said, "I hear they burn for murder."

And I said, "You might find out."

And he said, "Well, they say it just takes a second to die."

And that is all I recall.

Now we talked some more going down, but that is the thing that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any other conversation that you had with him, or not?

Mr. WALKER. No; he was just denying it, and he was saying that all he did was carry a gun, and the reason he fought back in the theatre is, he knew he wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun, and he had never been to jail.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about why he was at the theatre?

Mr. WALKER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he was carrying the gun?

Mr. WALKER. No; he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on?

Mr. WALKER. He had on a white T-shirt under a brown shirt, and a pair of black pants.

Mr. BELIN. How would you describe Oswald? About how tall?

Mr. WALKER. About 5'8" about 150 pounds, or 155 pounds, something like that.

Mr. BELIN. What color hair?

Mr. WALKER. I would say sandy, the best I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. Sandy, by that, you mean blond?

Mr. WALKER. Darker than blonde. I just don't recall this for sure.

Mr. BELIN. Some shade of brown?

Mr. WALKER. It wasn't what you call blond. It was darker than blond, in my opinion.

Mr. BELIN. Was it some shade of brown?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; the best I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him on your way to the police station?

Mr. WALKER. He was real calm. He was extra calm. He wasn't a bit excited or nervous or anything. That was all the conversation I can recall going down.

Mr. BELIN. After you got down there, what did you do with him?

Mr. WALKER. We took him up the homicide and robbery bureau, and we went back there, and one of the detectives said put him in this room.

I put him in the room, and he said, "Let the uniform officers stay with him." And I went inside, and Oswald sat down, and he was handcuffed with his hands behind him.

I sat down there, and I had his pistol, and he had a card in there with a picture of him and the name A. J. Hidell on it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of card it was?

Mr. WALKER. Just an identification card. I don't recall what it was.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. WALKER. And I told him, "That is your real name, isn't it?"

Mr. BELIN. He--had he earlier told you his name was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WALKER. I believe he had.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. WALKER. And he said, "No, that is not my real name."

And I started talking to him and I asked him, I said, "Why did you kill the officer?"

And he just looked at me. And I said, "Did you kill the officer because you were scared of being arrested for something?"

And he said, "I am not ascared of anything. Do I look like I am scared now?"

Mr. BELIN. Did he look like he was scared?

Mr. WALKER. No; he didn't look like he was scared. He was calm. Not a bit nervous.

Mr. BELIN. Any other thing that you can remember that took place during that time that he was with you?

Mr. WALKER. No; I can't recall.

Mr. BELIN. Were you asked ever to make a report of any conversation you had with him?

Mr. WALKER. No; they called me on the phone a couple of days after, and some supervisor asked me, there had been a rumor got out that Oswald had said, "Well, I got me a President and a cop. I should have got me two more." Or something like that.

But that conversation was never said, because I was with him from the time that he was arrested until the time the detectives took him over.

I made a written report on the arrest about a week after it happened, and that is the only conversation I had with anyone.

Mr. BELIN. In that report you didn't put any conversation that Oswald had, did you?

Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't put any conversation. I just put the details of the arrest.

Mr. BELIN. Were you asked just to make a report on your arrest of Oswald?

Mr. WALKER. That is normal procedure, just what we call a "Dear Chief" letter.

Just describe the arrest and other officers involved, and we never did put what conversation we had.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that Oswald said in your presence, or that you said to him?

Mr. WALKER. Not that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. At any time prior to the time you left him, did you find out he was a suspect in the assassination?

Mr. WALKER. When I got to the jail office and talk was going there that he was the suspect.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ask him any questions about the assassination?

Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't tie him in at that time with the actual killing of the President.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of now that might be relevant?

Mr. WALKER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now we chatted a little bit at the beginning prior to this deposition, and you said that you knew Officer Tippit, is that correct?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How long had you known Officer Tippit?

Mr. WALKER. Ever since I have been on the police department. When I first came to work, I was assigned to the Oak Cliff substation and worked there until I went to traffic investigation, and he was there all the time.

I am sure I worked with him when I first started out and was training and stuff like that. But I had worked with him prior to his death for, I know, maybe 2 or 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. Now at the time of the Tippit shooting, there had been no call for Lee Harvey Oswald as an individual, although there was a call for--I mean there was an announcement of a general description of the suspect in the assassination?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Just from your knowledge of the way Tippit operated, do you have any reason to think whether that general call might have affected his perhaps stopping this man on the street at the time of the shooting?

Mr. WALKER. I believe the type of officer Tippit was, that he was suspicious of him as a suspect.

Mr. BELIN. Why do you believe that?

Mr. WALKER. Well, Officer Tippit was an exceptional officer. He made good arrests. It was known around the station that he was exceptionally good with investigative work and just general police work. He was above normal.

Mr. BELIN. Why do you think he stopped this man?

Mr. WALKER. I believe that the description given on the radio, that he probably stopped just to check him out as a general procedure, as we do.

Mr. BELIN. Well, if he stopped him for that reason, this man, he would have stopped him because the man was a suspect for perhaps the assassination, why wouldn't he have had his gun out when he stopped him?

Mr. WALKER. Well, there are a lot of people of that description, and it is just not police practice to pull your gun on a person because he fits the description of someone, unless you are positive almost that it is the suspect. You just don't do it.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you, did you have anything to do on November 22, or anything more to do on November 22, with either the Tippit shooting or investigation or apprehension of Oswald or the assassination of the President's investigation?

Mr. WALKER. No. I stayed down in Captain Westbrook's office for a while until I got off.

Mr. BELIN. How about November 23, did you have anything to do that day?

Mr. WALKER. That would have been Saturday.