Chapter XIX: Part 19

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I don't--I see here it says 9:30--whatever the official time was, I think it probably was maybe about that time.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to get Oswald?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I had to go to the fourth floor jail.

Mr. BALL. Did you handcuff him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Were his handcuffs in the front or in the rear?

Mr. LEAVELLE. In front.

Mr. BALL. Where were you taking him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Took him down the inside elevator to the third floor into Captain Fritz's office.

Mr. BALL. Who was present at that meeting in Captain Fritz's office?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I can recall, I believe during that time I was there there were several people in and out. I believe primarily myself and Mr. Graves and Dhority and Montgomery were in there most of the time, I don't know. We were in, probably might have stepped outside the door at one time or another but primarily we were around and also Mr. Kelley, Secret Service, and a man from the postal inspector's office. I cannot recall his name at this time. He should be on here--oh, yes, Mr. Sorrels, also, and Holmes of the postal department. Now, those people and Chief Curry came in once or twice. All those people may not have stayed in there constantly during the time but they were in there at some time or other.

Mr. BALL. Did these various people ask questions of Oswald?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I know Mr. Sorrels did and I know Mr. Kelley did. I do not recall whether Mr. Holmes asked any questions or not and Captain Fritz asked him some.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Mr. Sorrels asked him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Remember what Mr. Kelley asked him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I can only remember one question Mr. Kelley asked him and that was whether or not he thought the attitude of the U.S. Government toward Cuba would be changed since the President has been assassinated. To my knowledge, that is the only one I can recall.

Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Oswald turned and asked Captain Fritz, said "I am filed on for the President's murder, is that right?" And, Captain Fritz told him yes, and he told Mr. Kelley, he said "Under the circumstances, I don't believe that it would be proper." That might not be the words he used, but wouldn't be right, anyway, for him to answer that question because whatever he said might be construed in a different light than what he actually meant it to be, but he went on to say he felt like when the head of any government died or was killed, whatever, there was always a second in command who would take over and he said in this particular instance it would he Johnson. He said "So far as I know, Johnson's views and President Kennedy's views are the same", so, he would see no particular difference in the attitude of the U.S. Government toward Cuba. That's about the main--the only one, because he went into such detail on it, the only one I thought was a little elaborate for him to go into that type of answer, the reason I remembered it.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any question Captain Fritz asked him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I remember that the captain asked him about the shooting of the President and the shooting of the officer; I know he did ask him that and I know Oswald did deny it, both times.

Mr. BALL. That he had shot President Kennedy and Tippit?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; he denied shooting either one. He did say this "If you want me to 'cop' out to hitting or pleading guilty to hitting a cop in the mouth when I was arrested", he said "Yeah, I plead guilty to that" but he--I do know that he denied the shooting of both the President and Tippit.

Mr. BALL. In that meeting did he ask for a lawyer?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I know Captain Fritz asked him if at one time, if--he handed him a telegram--in fact. I believe it was sent by some attorney, if my memory serves me right, and he said he did not particularly want him but he would take that and if he didn't do any better he would contact him at a later time. I do not recall what lawyer it was. It seems like some lawyer in the East sent the telegram volunteering his services to Oswald.

Mr. BALL. That is there on Sunday morning, the 24th?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. In the course of this meeting which you have been describing----

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said that he preferred--he never had gotten in touch with this lawyer in New York City that represented the American Civil Liberties Union and he wanted to get in touch with him and said if he didn't do any better, or could not get him, he would like to talk with this man about it.

Mr. BALL. Can you remember any other questions asked Oswald by Captain Fritz?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No, not offhand; I would probably remember them if I heard the questions but I do not remember offhand.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody talk to him about the post office box?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; Mr. Kelley asked him several questions and probably Mr. Sorrels about the post office box, both here and one he had in Shreveport--wherever it was.

Mr. BALL. New Orleans?

Mr. LEAVELLE. New Orleans, yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Since you mentioned it, I do remember them talking to him about the New Orleans box and asking him about this other name, this----

Mr. BALL. Alek Hidell?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; and he asked him if he knew Alek Hidell; said he didn't know if he ever heard of the name. He never heard of that and asked him several questions along that line and then after he had denied all knowledge of Alek Hidell, Mr. Kelley asked him, said "Well, isn't it a fact when you were arrested you had an identification card with his name on it in your possession." He kind of grunted, said "Yes, that's right" and he said "How do you explain that?" And, as best my knowledge, he said "I don't explain it."

Mr. BALL. Anybody ask him about a gun, whether or not he bought a rifle?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I am sure they did. I remember some of them asking about the rifle and about it bring sent to the box here in Dallas but I do not recall. I am not sure he denied it but I do not recall what his exact denial was.

Mr. BALL. You say he denied it. Do you remember whether or not he denied that he had bought a rifle?

Mr. LEAVELLE. To the best of my knowledge I do. He did deny it but I would not swear to it.

Mr. BALL. Was anything said about a revolver?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I am sure they asked him something about the revolver, too, but I do not recall what it was.

Mr. BALL. Did he say whether or not he had a revolver in his possession at the time of his arrest?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall what the questions was along that line or even what the answers was. Like I say, I am sure that they did. It seems as though my memory tells me that he did not deny taking the revolver but there, again. I would not want to say definitely.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of the conversation?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I did not myself. That was the only time I ever sat in on the interrogations of him by Captain Fritz or anyone.

Mr. BALL. Is that the first time you had seen Oswald?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had seen him, of course, the first day he was arrested and when they brought him in and out of the office taking him to and from the jail and, of course, I had saw him at the showups, what-have-you.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever talked to him before?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had never talked to him before.

Mr. BALL. Did he have any marks on his face when you first saw him on Friday, the 22nd of November?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, no; not that I recall. He--I know he had a black eye. I remember seeing that some time along the way but I do not recall when I first noticed it.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about his black eye?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear him say anything to anyone as to how he received the black eye?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I remember at one time when they were moving him. Of course, if you saw television that day, I am sure you saw what men we had in the hallway up there with the photographers and newsmen, all were sticking microphones out at arms' length and hollering questions at him, and at one time someone asked him how he got the black eye. He said "A cop hit me," but that was just a hollered response to some unknown question or unknown news-reporter asking him.

Mr. BALL. As you would move Oswald through the halls on the third floor from one room to another----

Mr. LEAVELLE. Actually, it wasn't from one room to the other; it would be from our office to the elevator which is some 20 feet.

Mr. BALL. On those occasions would the hallway he crowded with reporters, newsmen, and television cameramen?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; cameramen and television men all over the place; in fact, I was plumb up to my chin with those people.

Mr. STERN. How do you mean?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I was disgusted with them.

Mr. STERN. Would they not cooperate with your request to stand in a particular place?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; if you ever slopped hogs and throw down a pail of slop and saw them rush after it you would understand what that was like up there--about the same situation.

Mr. BALL. I'm through. Do you have some more questions, Mr. Stern?

Mr. STERN. There was just no response. You asked them to cooperate with you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Oh, yes; they would be asked to stand back and stay back but wouldn't do much good, and they would push forward and you had to hold them off physically. Of course, I realize I am not running the police department but if I had been running it wouldn't have been nobody up there; like I say, I was fed up. Fact of the business, one time when I was trying to escort some witness out of there--I don't recall who it was at this time--but I was trying to get them through that crowd and taking them down the edge of the corridor and I stopped and I looked down and there was a joker had a camera stuck between my legs taking pictures so that's just some indication of how they acted.

Mr. STERN. Was any consideration given to clearing the corridor?

Mr. LEAVELLE. A lot of consideration was given to it by me but, of course, I didn't have anything to do with it.

Mr. STERN. Was it discussed?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I imagine just among the men up there. The officers working in the bureau probably did. I don't know whether it was discussed on a higher level or not. I have no knowledge of that.

Mr. STERN. There were actually television cameras in the corridor?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, yes.

Mr. STERN. Hand cameras or the large?

Mr. LEAVELLE. They had the big camera set on a tripod right at the entrance of that hallway leading up there which would give them a full view of the entire hallway.

Mr. STERN. What was your impression of Oswald and the way he handled himself throughout this period?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Like I say, the only time that I had any connections with Oswald was this Sunday morning. I never had occasion of hearing him being interrogated or had occasion to talk with him at anytime and, to my listening to him answering the questions that were propounded to him that particular morning, he gave me the impression of being a man with a lot better education than his formal education indicated. In other words, for instance the long elaboration that he went into on the Cuba deal would tell--indicate that he had a fairly better than high school education that he was reported to have had.

Mr. STERN. Did he seem to be in control of himself?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Oh, yes; he was in control of himself at all times. In fact, he struck me as a man who enjoyed the situation immensely and was enjoying the publicity and everything was coming his way.

Mr. STERN. He engaged in banter with you and the police officials?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Not with me because I didn't have occasion to question him, but he did always smile and never hesitated for an answer, always had an answer.

Mr. STERN. How about on the occasions you were bringing him to or from the interrogations?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I did not indulge in any of that other than the one time and, of course, if I made any comments to him at that time, I do not remember what they were.

Mr. STERN. How about comments he made to you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I know--I think possibly at one time he--that morning that I was bringing him down on Sunday morning that he may have asked me where he was going or if he was going back to Captain Fritz' office that morning, but aside from that, I do not recall anything else that he may have said or anything that I may have said to him in the course of the day.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall any complaints that he registered, any statements he made about his treatment, or----

Mr. LEAVELLE. No. I don't think he made any to us that morning we were moving him.

Mr. STERN. Did you receive the telegram that arrived Sunday morning or that was there Sunday morning about the offer?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I had occasion to see it. I do not recall what it was. I think it is a matter of record somewhere.

Mr. STERN. It was there at the Sunday morning interrogation?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; it was there and, in fact, I know the captain and I talked about it there a minute before I went up and got him, talked about informing him of this lawyer's request or offer. I said "Why not let him have the telegram, show him the telegram, let him read it himself," so, that's what the captain done--let him have the telegram.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall whether any of the witnesses at the showups at which you were present said that they had seen Oswald on television before they got to the police headquarters?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I think it would have been impossible for anybody, any of them to see him with the exception of the two bus--cabdrivers. Now, the others may have, I don't recall, but the others all came down on the day of the assassination so I don't believe that they would have, but I know Helen Markham would not have because she was taken directly to city hall and had been there ever since it happened, so she would not, and I do not believe Mr. Callaway and the Negro porter, Sam Guinyard, would have had an opportunity, either.

Mr. STERN. In any event, you do not recall it?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall, but I am not saying it would not have happened.

Mr. STERN. That's all I have.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have Officer Leavelle's reports on the officer's duties filed as an exhibit to this deposition. It is marked "Pages 216, 217, 218, 219, 220." It is a part of the formal report of the Dallas Police Department concerning the assassination of President Kennedy and Officer Leavelle, your testimony will be written up by the shorthand reporter and will be submitted to you if you wish for you to read it and sign it, or, if you wish, you can waive your signature and it will be written up and forwarded to the Commission without your signature. How will you prefer?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I see no reason for me to sign it as long as it comes out like I put it down there.

Mr. BALL. If you have confidence in the reporter you can waive signature and we will send it on.

Mr. LEAVELLE. All right.

Mr. BALL. It is pages 216 through 220 of the formal report which is included in this Exhibit A. Thank you very much, Mr. Leavelle.

TESTIMONY OF W. E. BARNES

The testimony of W. E. Barnes was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BARNES. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please sit down. You can smoke if you want to.

Mr. BARNES. It causes lung cancer.

Mr. BELIN. I don't know if I formally introduced myself. I am David Belin, actually a practicing attorney from Des Moines, Iowa, and about a dozen of us practicing attorneys from across the country have been with the President's Commission on the Assassination for most of the past 3 months as consultants, and that is how I happen to be down here in your city.

Would you please state your name for the record.

Mr. BARNES. W. E. Barnes.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Barnes?

Mr. BARNES. Route 2, Plano, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. BARNES. It is.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. BARNES. I am a policeman for the city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular department?

Mr. BARNES. I am a sergeant in the crime scene search section of the identification bureau.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you Sergeant Barnes?

Mr. BARNES. Forty-two years.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas?

Mr. BARNES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Went to school here?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to high school?

Mr. BARNES. Graduate of Plano High School.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you were graduated from high school?

Mr. BARNES. I worked for an aircraft company in California, and went into the Merchant Marine Service.

Mr. BELIN. That was during World War II?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the merchant marine?

Mr. BARNES. Little over 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BARNES. Went to work for Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. That would be in 1947 or 1946?

Mr. BARNES. 1947.

Mr. BELIN. Have you been with them ever since?

Mr. BARNES. I have been.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. BARNES. Two children, boy and a girl.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I was.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you go on duty?

Mr. BARNES. I came at 7 a.m.

Mr. BELIN. Was your shift from 7 a.m., to----

Mr. BARNES. 3 p.m.

Mr. BELIN. Did you leave at 3 p.m., on that day?

Mr. BARNES. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. When you first learned of the assassination or the shooting of the President, where were you and what were you doing?

Mr. BARNES. I was in Dr. Bledsoe's office just finishing a dental appointment.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BARNES. I immediately drove to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. At about what time did you get there?

Mr. BARNES. Shortly after the President was assassinated.

Mr. BELIN. You had your appointment over the noon hour?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you got to the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. BARNES. I asked the captain did he want me to go to the scene or to stand by until we freed the two men that were at the scene?

Mr. BELIN. You had two men?

Mr. BARNES. At the scene.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the scene, what do you mean?

Mr. BARNES. The scene of the assassination.

Mr. BELIN. Were they in a building there?

Mr. BARNES. The Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. The Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who those men were?

Mr. BARNES. Detective R. L. Studebaker and Lt. J. C. Day.

Mr. BELIN. When you say two men, you mean from the crime laboratory?

Mr. BARNES. Two men from our crime scene search section.

Mr. BELIN. What were you advised to do?

Mr. BARNES. I was told to standby until further notice.

Mr. BELIN. What was the next thing that occurred?

Mr. BARNES. Officer Tippit was shot at 10th and Patton in Oak Cliff.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. BARNES. I immediately went to the scene of the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the scene?

Mr. BARNES. The first thing that I did was to check the right side of Tippit's car for fingerprints.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find any fingerprints on the right side of the car?

Mr. BARNES. There was several smear prints. None of value.

Mr. BELIN. Where were these smear prints located?

Mr. BARNES. Just below the top part of the door, and also on the right front fender.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you happen to check that particular portion of the vehicle for fingerprints?

Mr. BARNES. I was told that the suspect which shot Tippit had come up to the right side of the car, and there was a possibility that he might have placed his hands on there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you do anything else at all out there?

Mr. BARNES. I photographed the scene.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had much experience in photography?

Mr. BARNES. I have been in the crime scene search section doing this work since August 1, 1956.

Mr. BELIN. When you photographed the scene, did you use flashbulb equipment or not?

Mr. BARNES. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. I assume that because many crime scenes are inside, that you are also familiar with the operation of flash equipment?

Mr. BARNES. We use flash equipment on the inside and outside when I think it is necessary.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of camera do you use?

Mr. BARNES. Speedgraphic.

Mr. BELIN. Is that the kind of camera that newspaper cameramen often use?

Mr. BARNES. A lot of them do.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did out at the crime scene?

Mr. BARNES. I photographed the scene; yes. There was a couple of hulls that was turned over to me.

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean empty shell casings?

Mr. BARNES. Empty .38 caliber hulls was turned over to me at the scene by patrolman--I believe I would be safe in saying Poe, but I am not sure about that.

Mr. BELIN. How do you spell that?

Mr. BARNES. P-o-e, I believe is the way he spells it.

Mr. BELIN. You think he was the one that turned over some shells?

Mr. BARNES. I believe it is. I am not too sure right now, but I believe that is what is on the report. I would have to check it to be sure.

Mr. BELIN. Would these be on your report?

Mr. BARNES. It would be on our report, at the crime scene search section.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that was turned over to you at the scene besides these hulls that you think Patrolman Poe turned over?

Mr. BARNES. Not that I can remember at this time.

Mr. BELIN. While you were out there, were any additional hulls found other than these two?

Mr. BARNES. Yes. Captain Doughty picked up another hull, .38 caliber.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Captain Doughty pick it up?

Mr. BARNES. I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Were you advised as to anyone who might have pointed it out to Captain Doughty, or did he get it himself, or what?

Mr. BARNES. I heard that someone pointed it out to him and he picked it up.

Mr. BELIN. You mean some citizen?

Mr. BARNES. Some citizen pointed it out to him, and he picked it up?

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he might have located it? What approximate location?

Mr. BARNES. I was a busy man and I didn't watch his operation.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else out there?

Mr. BARNES. Not that I can recall at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Now you took pictures of the Tippit vehicle?

Mr. BARNES. The what?

Mr. BELIN. Of the Tippit police car. You took pictures of that out there?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of anything on the street in the immediate vicinity of the car?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What was that?

Mr. BARNES. I took a picture of a stop sign that was located down at the intersection of Patton and 10th. We had a report that we thought maybe that might have had some significance on the case.

I also took shots at the rear of the car on the parking lot where a jacket was discarded by the suspect.

Mr. BELIN. Where would that be?

Mr. BARNES. In the alley between Patton and the next street over.

Mr. BELIN. The next street to the west?

Mr. BARNES. Between Patton and the alley that ran between the two. I would have to check on the map. Cumberland--you got a street map?

Mr. BELIN. I have a map here which, if you will excuse me for a moment, I will try and get.

Mr. BARNES. I sure will. Crawford.

Mr. BELIN. We now have a map of Dallas, and you say that the jacket was found in the alley between Patton and Crawford? Where with relation to 10th or Jefferson?

Mr. BARNES. It would be between Jefferson and 10th in the alley that separates those two streets, and running from Patton and Crawford.

Mr. BELIN. You say running from Patton and Crawford. You mean parallel?

Mr. BARNES. It runs parallel to Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. Parallel to Jefferson?

Mr. BARNES. Between Patton and Crawford.

Mr. BELIN. Between Patton and Crawford. Was there a Texaco station around there at all?

Mr. BARNES. There is a service station right south of it. The kind of station that it is, I don't recall the kind of station it was, but there is a service station, and sort of a parking lot where this jacket was discarded. We got photos of this car where the jacket was found just behind it.

Mr. BELIN. Now you took some pictures out there, you say, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. I did.

(Discussion off the record for selection of pictures.)

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Barnes, I am going to hand you some pictures which we will mark as "Barnes Deposition Exhibits A, B, C, D, and E" on the deposition of Barnes, and I am going to ask you to state whether or not the original negatives from which these prints were made were taken by you?

Mr. BARNES. They were.

Mr. BELIN. Now the first one, Barnes Deposition Exhibit A, is a picture of the Dallas Police squadcar No. 10. Was that the Tippit automobile?

Mr. BARNES. It was.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you say you got out to the Tippit scene?

Mr. BARNES. Approximately 1:40.

Mr. BELIN. 1:40 in the afternoon?

Mr. BARNES. Approximately, November 22.

Mr. BELIN. When would you have started taking these pictures?

Mr. BARNES. Shortly afterwards.

Mr. BELIN. Within 5 or 10 minutes?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now I notice on the right-front door window it appears that the vent window was open and that the main window is closed. Is that the way that you found the car when you got there?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Inside the window there appears to be some kind of paper or document. Do you remember what that is at all, or not?

Mr. BARNES. That is a board, a clipboard that is installed on the dash of all squad cars for the officers to take notes on and to keep their wanted persons names on.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any notes on there that you saw that had been made on this clipboard?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; we never read his clipboard.

Mr. BELIN. That is the way you saw the clipboard there?

Mr. BARNES. That is the way it was.

Mr. BELIN. It appears to be there is a picture of some man on the clipboard. Did you notice whether or not there was any handwriting or any memorandum paper on the board?

Mr. BARNES. I couldn't tell you what was on the clipboard.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this particular picture, Barnes Deposition Exhibit A?

Mr. BARNES. What?

Mr. BELIN. Anything that you can tell us about it that you think might be relevant?

Mr. BARNES. Not that I know.

Mr. BELIN. I am now turning to Barnes Deposition Exhibit B. What is Exhibit B?

Mr. BARNES. That is a picture showing the front of the squadcar, and also blood on the street where Tippit fell.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could circle with this ballpoint pen on Barnes Deposition Exhibit B, the spot of blood where you say Tippit fell?

Mr. BARNES. (Circles.)

Mr. BELIN. You have circled that in ink. Now going back to Barnes Deposition Exhibit A: earlier, Sergeant Barnes, you said that you tried to get some prints and you found some smears on the right side of the car. I wonder if on Barnes Deposition Exhibit A with a red pencil you could show us the general area where you found the smears?

Mr. BARNES. [Marks with red pencil on photo.]

Mr. BELIN. You put on this print a relatively horizontal line on the right front car door immediately below the bottom part of the window, and also what I will call the right part of the top of the right-front fender near where the headlight is.

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Was this police car dirty or clean?

Mr. BARNES. Dirty.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not this in any way affects your ability to lift fingerprints?

Mr. BARNES. Any dirty surface will create a hardship as far as lifting a latent print.

Mr. BELIN. Were you able to find any identifiable prints?

Mr. BARNES. No legible prints were found.

Mr. BELIN. When you came to the scene, Officer Tippit had already been removed?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on Barnes Deposition Exhibit B that you think is relevant?

Mr. BARNES. None that I can recall at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Turning to Barnes Deposition Exhibit C, could you state what this is, please?

Mr. BARNES. That is a picture of squad car No. 10, which was driven by Tippit, a more distant shot showing where Tippit fell, and the scene where the squad car was.

Mr. BELIN. Had the Tippit car been moved at any time during the taking of any of these pictures by you?

Mr. BARNES. None that I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. Anything particularly relevant about Barnes Deposition Exhibit C that you want to further discuss at this time?

Mr. BARNES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Barnes Deposition Exhibit D, will you state what this is?

Mr. BARNES. That is a side view of the Tippit car.

Mr. BELIN. That is looking toward the driver's side, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You see the houses in the background which would be roughly to the south, is that right?

Mr. BARNES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. This is a picture of the car as you found it?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember whether or not the window on the driver's side was up or down?

Mr. BARNES. I believe it was down.

Mr. BELIN. Was any jacket of any kind hanging in the back of the car?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; Tippit's Eisenhower jacket, that's what we call them, was hanging on a hanger in the back of the car.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Barnes Deposition Exhibit E, would you state what this is?

Mr. BARNES. This is a shot from the south looking northward at the front of the Tippit car, and showing the blood shot on the pavement where Tippit fell.

Mr. BELIN. This has a caption on it, "Spot where Patrolman Tippit fell." Does the arrow point to the spot to which you refer?

Mr. BARNES. It does.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else particularly relevant about Barnes Deposition Exhibit E that you want to discuss now?

Mr. BARNES. No. I made that one [pointing].

Mr. BELIN. You are now referring to Barnes Deposition Exhibit F, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. What is that a picture of?

Mr. BARNES. That shows the rear of the Tippit car, left rear, and also a view looking to the east, which covers the spot where Tippit fell.

Mr. BELIN. At this time we introduce in evidence Barnes Deposition Exhibits A, B, C, D, E, and F, and I will just have these copies with the original copy of the deposition for madam reporter. We won't ask you to make copies of these.

Now you mentioned out there that some cartridge cases were found, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, I will ask you to examine Commission Exhibits Nos. Q-74, Q-75, Q-76, and Q-77, and ask you to state whether or not there appears to be any identification marks on any of these exhibits that appear to show that they were examined or identified by you?

Mr. BARNES. I placed "B", the best that I could, inside of the hull of Exhibit 74--I believe it was Q-74 and Q-75, as you have them identified.

Mr. BELIN. Now all four of these exhibits appear to be cartridge case hulls, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. .38 caliber.

Mr. BELIN. .38 caliber pistol?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. They are kind of silver or chrome or grey in color? You can identify it that way?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How many of these hulls, to the best of your recollection, did you identify out there?

Mr. BARNES. I believe that the patrolman gave me two, and Captain Doughty received the third.

Mr. BELIN. The two that the patrolman gave you were the ones that you put this identification mark on the inside of?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What instrument did you use to place this mark?

Mr. BARNES. I used a diamond point pen.

Mr. BELIN. You put it on Q-74 and Q-75?

Mr. BARNES. It looks like there are others that put their markings in there too.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with identifying either the slugs that were eventually removed from Officer Tippit's body, or the pistol?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. You never put any identifying marks on those. Is there anything else that you did out at the crime scene?

Mr. BARNES. We made a crime sketch of the scene.

Mr. BELIN. You made a crime sketch of the scene?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. BARNES. No; not that I can recall at this time.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with those cartridge case hulls, Q-74 and Q-75?

Mr. BARNES. We placed them in our evidence room, and turned them over to the FBI. I believe Special Agent Drain of the FBI was the agent that took them.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of that might be relevant with regard to your work at the Tippit scene?

Mr. BARNES. None. Not at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Well, when did leave there?

Mr. BARNES. I don't know the exact hour that I left there, that I got through.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go?

Mr. BARNES. I went on a major accident at Veterans Drive and Ledbetter.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go after that?

Mr. BARNES. Back to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Did you make any other pictures that day?

Mr. BARNES. I don't believe I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you make any pictures with regard to the investigation of the President's assassination or the murder of Officer Tippit at any other time on either Saturday the 23d or Sunday the 24th up to the time of the shooting of Oswald by Jack Ruby?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you make any pictures of the Texas Theatre?

Mr. BARNES. I did.

Mr. BELIN. When did you do those?

Mr. BARNES. I did that the afternoon of November 22, as soon as I finished with the Tippit car pictures.

Mr. BELIN. Would you include that as part of the Tippit investigation?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; that was in the same part.

Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack a minute. You may have misunderstood my question. When you finished up at East 10th and Patton Streets, you took pictures, you got shells, you said you tried to get fingerprints. Did you try to do anything else at East 10th and Patton?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go from East 10th and Patton?

Mr. BARNES. The Texas Theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Before you got to the Texas Theatre, did you stop at the spot where you say this jacket was found?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take a picture there?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you take any other pictures between East 10th and Patton and the Texas Theatre?

Mr. BARNES. I took two photos of the place where the jacket was found.

Mr. BELIN. But other than that, you then went to the Texas Theatre?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you got to the Texas Theatre, had Oswald or the person that was apprehended there already been taken away from the theatre?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the theatre?

Mr. BARNES. I photographed the interior of the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular position of it that you remember?

Mr. BARNES. The lobby and the place where the arrest was made.

Mr. BELIN. It was after that that you then went to investigate that major automobile accident?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now after you investigated or took pictures at this major automobile accident, then what did you do?

Mr. BARNES. I returned to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you returned to the city hall?

Mr. BARNES. We started working out the evidence and developing negatives of all the photos that were taken at the Kennedy assassination site and also at the Tippit site.

Mr. BELIN. Who were you working with at that time?

Mr. BARNES. We had just about all the manpower of the crime scene search section working.

Lt. J. C. Day, myself, Detective R. L. Studebaker, Detective J. B. Hicks, and Detective R. W. Livingston.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know about what time of the day you were doing this?

Mr. BARNES. We started on it, I would say, roughly after I returned to the city hall. It was getting close to 4 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Where was this work done?

Mr. BARNES. In the crime scene search section of the identification bureau.

Mr. BELIN. On what floor is that?

Mr. BARNES. It is on the fourth floor of the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. On the fourth floor, were there any people other than police personnel?

Mr. BARNES. Not where we were; no.

Mr. BELIN. When you got there, did you see what the situation was on the third floor?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; we could.

Mr. BELIN. What was the situation on the third floor?

Mr. BARNES. Turmoil of news media, photographers.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by turmoil?

Mr. BARNES. Well, they just all of them trying to get up in there where they could get a shot.

Mr. BELIN. By a shot, you mean a picture?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; a photo. Any photos they might get for the newspapers.

In case they should get a view, they wanted to be there at the time. I presume that is what they were there for.

Mr. BELIN. Was Oswald on the third floor at the time?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did they have wires coming through the windows for television cameras, or not?

Mr. BARNES. There was wires running all over the city hall; cables.

Mr. BELIN. Cables?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What about stands for lights, were they there, too?

Mr. BARNES. That's right, they come up with lights and also TV cameras to cover.

Mr. BELIN. When you say city hall, really the third floor that we are talking about is exclusively used by the police department, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, do you have any estimate of the number of newspaper people there were on the third floor at that time?

Mr. BARNES. It would be a guess. I wouldn't want to venture to guess, because it would be just strictly guesswork.

Mr. BELIN. More than 20?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. More than 50?

Mr. BARNES. I am not saying. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, you were working on the fourth floor?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. BARNES. Later we went to the third floor, to the office of Captain Fritz.

Mr. BELIN. What did you go to Captain Fritz' office for?

Mr. BARNES. To make a paraffin test of Lee Harvey Oswald's hand.

Mr. BELIN. About when would this have been, approximately, if you know?

Mr. BARNES. I tell you, the time didn't mean anything there, and it was after I returned to the city hall, and after 6 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Sometime after 6 o'clock?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz call you up and tell you to come down and make the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. He didn't talk to me. I was advised to go to that office to help make the paraffin test.

Mr. BELIN. By your supervisor?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Who would that have been?

Mr. BARNES. Lt. J. C. Day.

Mr. BELIN. Now is this the usual procedure when you are going to make a paraffin test, to go to an office such as Captain Fritz' office to do it?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. What would the usual procedure be?

Mr. BARNES. If he is alive, they usually bring them to our bureau.

Mr. BELIN. That would be to bring them up to the fourth floor?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. This would have necessitated, I would assume, moving the prisoner from Captain Fritz' office through the hallway up to the fourth floor?

Mr. BARNES. It would.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any people in the hallways at this time, or did anyone tell you why?

Mr. BARNES. Well----

Mr. BELIN. That is, tell you why they were going to make a paraffin test down in Captain Fritz' office rather than in your laboratory?

Mr. BARNES. No, sir; nobody said anything to me about it.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any particular problem that you saw insofar as taking the prisoner up to your office from Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; you would have to take him through the throng of newspapermen and photographers who were in the hallway.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether this might have presented a security problem in any way?

Mr. BARNES. It would.

Mr. BELIN. What equipment did you take down to make this paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. I took paraffin, the paraffin kit that we have which consists of gauze and paraphernalia that we need to make the test.

Mr. BELIN. Was this your permanent equipment or your portable equipment? When I say your permanent, I mean your inplace equipment?

Mr. BARNES. It is the same equipment we use up in our bureau, working under makeshift conditions.

Mr. BELIN. When you use the phrase "makeshift conditions"----

Mr. BARNES. Just like putting up a portable camping ground to cook on. We have our benches to work on up at the crime scene search section which makes it handier to work with.

Mr. BELIN. Would the quality of the test be the same?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I think so. The quality would be the same, just takes a little more time and inconvenience.

Mr. BELIN. When you got down there, what did you do and see? First of all, who was in the room?

Mr. BARNES. Detective Dhority and Detective Leavelle.

Mr. BELIN. Is that L-e-a-v-e-l-l-e?

Mr. BARNES. Right. And Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any discussion, or did you hear Lee Harvey Oswald say anything or anyone say anything to Lee Harvey Oswald while you were there?

Mr. BARNES. No conversation.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. BARNES. We got our equipment and got the paraffin melted, and while it was being prepared, we told him that we would have to make a paraffin cast of his hand.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say to that?

Mr. BARNES. It was okay with him.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything as to any other comments he had about the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. None other than he stated to me, "What are you trying to do, prove that I fired a gun?"

And I said, "I am not trying to prove that you fired a gun. We have the test to make, and the chemical people at the laboratory, at the city-county laboratory will determine the rest of it."

Mr. BELIN. What is the purpose of a paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. The purpose is to find out if there is any nitrates on your hands.

Mr. BELIN. Officer, how many years have you personally made paraffin tests?

Mr. BARNES. Since 1956.

Mr. BELIN. What is the procedure by which you determine whether or not there are any nitrates on one's hand?

Mr. BARNES. The analyses are made at Parkland Hospital by their personnel.

Mr. BELIN. Do they analyze the wax?

Mr. BARNES. They analyze the wax that I remove from his hands after the casts are made.

Mr. BELIN. Well, if you were to take a paraffin or make a paraffin test on one of my hands, you would take melted hot wax and put it over my hands?

Mr. BARNES. It wouldn't be hot wax. It would have to be at a degree where it would be melted. Take a paint brush, small paint brush, dip it into the paraffin, and paint your hand as you would be painting a wall, and you build this paraffin up around and around your hand, front and back, until you get a layer approximately a quarter of an inch thick.

Then you wrap the hands in gauze, just a layer of gauze around it for reenforcement purposes such as you would put steel and concrete to reenforce it, and then on top of this gauze we put another layer of paraffin. In fact, several layers of paraffin on top of the gauze to round it out to make it more firm so that when we remove this paraffin from around his hands, we take a pair of surgical scissors and cut down each side, and it slips off just like you were removing a glove.

Mr. BELIN. You would make two cuts then, one along the side of the little finger and one along the side of the thumb?

Mr. BARNES. Well, really it is a =V=-cut on the thumb and forefinger, and a straight parallel line down the left- or right-little finger.

Mr. BELIN. On the side of the palm of the hand?

Mr. BARNES. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Have you done any reading as to what this test shows and what its limitations are at all?

Mr. BARNES. Well, yes; the purpose of it is when you put the heated paraffin on the hand, for the nitrates which might be on the hand, to be stuck to the paraffin that you place on there.

This paraffin that you place on the hand--I will rephrase this a little bit.

When you put the paraffin on your hand, the nitrates that might be on your hands will stick to the paraffin as it cools, and when you remove the paraffin, then this nitrate or powder residue which might be on the hands will be hardened into the paraffin and will slip off with the paraffin.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you say nitrates, I believe you used the word "residue"?

Mr. BARNES. Powder residue and nitrates.

Mr. BELIN. Is nitrate a compound which is in gunpowder residue?

Mr. BARNES. That is what they call the dermal nitrate test, I believe is the correct name that they give it.

Mr. BELIN. Does gunpowder generally have included in it some sort of nitrate compound?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. If I were firing a pistol, would this pistol leave a nitrate on my hands that would be detectable by the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. It should, unless it is awful tight.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by "awful tight"?

Mr. BARNES. You could have an automatic which very easily could keep you from having nitrate on your hands.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let's assume that we were taking a .38 caliber pistol. You have seen the pistol which Lee Harvey Oswald had in his possession at the time he was apprehended.

Let's assume I were firing that pistol. Would it leave some residue on my hand?

Mr. BARNES. It should.

Mr. BELIN. Suppose I were to wash my hands between the time I fired it and the time you took the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. It would hurt the test.

Mr. BELIN. It would cut down the test?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now if I were firing it, would it necessarily show on both hands? Suppose I were right-handed?

Mr. BARNES. Depends on the location of your left hand.

Mr. BELIN. Well, generally from your experience, is there any particular location for a right-handed person to keep his hand when he is firing a pistol?

Mr. BARNES. Police officers are taught to keep their left hand near the pistol handle.

Mr. BELIN. As an element of controlling it?

Mr. BARNES. As an element of controlling, and also an element which, if you should get wounded in your right shoulder, you would have the left hand to take the gun.

Mr. BELIN. If you keep it near then, I assume that you would get the nitrate on the other hand, too, or not?

Mr. BARNES. Very likely that you would.

Mr. BELIN. Suppose I were unloading a pistol and taking the cartridge case out and putting them in my left hand or handling the chamber where the cartridge cases had been, would this leave nitrate deposits on my hand?

Mr. BARNES. It is possible.

Mr. BELIN. Suppose you were to examine my hands and you were to find no nitrate deposits at all. Would you say that this conclusively shows that I did not fire a pistol?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, does it conclusively show I had not fired a pistol within the last 6 or 8 or 10 hours?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Why do you say that?

Mr. BARNES. Well, a lot would depend what kind of pistol.

Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose it were a .38 caliber pistol?

Mr. BARNES. Then it would depend on whether you had cleaned your hands or whether you had had gloves on.

Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose I were to tell you I didn't have gloves on.

Mr. BARNES. Had you washed your hands?

Mr. BELIN. Well, would this make much of a difference?

Mr. BARNES. Washing your hands would make a difference.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, suppose you were to examine me for firing a rifle such as a bolt-action rifle rather than an automatic or semiautomatic. Would you expect to find nitrate residue on my hands that a paraffin test would show?

Mr. BARNES. Chances are smaller on a rifle than it would be with a revolver.

Mr. BELIN. Why?

Mr. BARNES. Because your chamber is enclosed.

Mr. BELIN. What difference does that make?

Mr. BARNES. The powder couldn't get out like a pistol where the cylinder is open, and there is no casing around the cylinder of a revolver, and the chamber of a rifle, it is enclosed with the metal all the way around.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I operate the bolt on the rifle, does that make a difference about letting the gas or residue escape?

Mr. BARNES. No; all your explosives have already gone down the barrel. It is not coming down the side when you operate the chamber. There is no pressure there.