Chapter XIV: Part 14

Mr. STOVALL. On this list here--where it has 1963 Kodachrome transparent slides, you have it coded at the top, I have one brown pasteboard box filled with camera film slides. One of those, I believe, came out of the back room, which would be Ruth Paine's bedroom, and the other came out of the chest of drawers in Marina Oswald's bedroom, but I'm not sure which came from which place.

Mr. BALL. Do you know where the other articles that were on that list that have not been checked, were found?

Mr. STOVALL. Some of them I do, and some of them I'm not positive on.

Mr. BALL. Did you find them, or did some other officer find those other items--those other articles?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, it's hard to say. I don't remember for sure where these came from. I know that I went through the front bedroom there and when we started--I went to the back bedroom and looked at some of the stuff in there and Rose was also in there and Adamcik came in there too.

Mr. BALL. Give us, from your memory, then, the other articles that are not checked there? Take a look at them, and then tell us, if you can, from your memory, just where you found those articles.

Mr. STOVALL. There was one box of Kodaslides in the single name of Ruth Hyde, another yellow box of Kodaslides, single--I'm not sure where they came from. I believe they came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. I have listed one book from Sears Tower slide projector.

Mr. BALL. You don't make a check on it if you didn't find it in Marina's bedroom.

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I missed one up there when we checked them.

Mr. BALL. All right, very well.

Mr. STOVALL. That one, I'm not sure which bedroom it came from--I know it came from one of the bedrooms, but I don't know which one. I've got listed "one grey metal file box, which is 12 inches by 6 inches; youth pictures and literature." I've got, "One black and gray metal box 10 inches by 4 inches, letters, etc., one box brown Keystone projector." Let's stop just a minute and let me tell you about this.

These two metal boxes came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. This Keystone projector came out of the closet in the hall. Then, I have listed, "Three brown metal boxes 12 inches by 4 inches containing phonograph records." They came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom.

I've got listed, "One Blue Check telephone index book (addresses)"--I'm not sure which bedroom that came from. And, I've got listed "One bracket (instruction for mounting)" and I believe that came out of Marina's bedroom--I'm not sure. The next is not checked and I'm not sure, but it is "1963 Kodachrome transparency slides," which I explained a while ago. The next one I don't have checked is "One envelope with women's book entitled 'Simplicity'". I'm not sure which bedroom that came out of. Then I've got "One Russian book."

We took several books from Marina's bedroom and I don't recall taking any books from Ruth Paine's bedroom, but I don't remember the particular ones--it's very possible I did, I can't be sure, but that's the last one I don't have checked.

Mr. BALL. Did you search any other part of the house besides Marina's bedroom?

Mr. STOVALL. I assisted in searching the back bedroom. I searched the hall closet and I also looked at several things in the living room and the kitchen and the den.

Mr. BALL. Did you search the garage?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that day, I did the next day.

Mr. BALL. Rose searched the garage that day?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; he was out in the garage. We were going over the stuff pretty hastily at that time--that day.

Mr. BALL. How long were you there that day--how long were you there?

Mr. STOVALL. I would say for approximately 2 to 2-1/2 hours, if that long.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you first went in, did Ruth Paine say anything to you about expecting you, or something of that sort?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; when we first came to the door and knocked on the door, she came to the door and she says, and we identified ourselves, she said "I have been expecting you. You are here about this mess that's on television," and the "mess that's on television" at the time she was talking about was when they were talking about the President's murder.

Mr. BALL. And Oswald had been apprehended at that time?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, he had, but he had been apprehended before we got there.

Mr. BALL. Before you got there Oswald had been arrested and brought into the office?

Mr. STOVALL. They had brought him into the office after I was there.

Mr. BALL. Later on, did her husband come in there--come in the house?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, I guess we had been there approximately 15 minutes when Michael Paine came out and said he had taken off from work and he said he heard about the President's murder on television and he thought he would come right on out and see if he could be of any help.

Mr. BALL. Did he say whether or not he had heard about it on radio or television?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I don't recall him saying where he said he heard about it--I don't recall him saying that.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him any questions at that time?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I can't recall asking him anything at that time. However, I did talk to him but I don't remember what the conversation was.

Mr. BALL. Did a Mrs. Randle come in the house also?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; she didn't. While we were loading this stuff into our car and into the sheriff's deputy's car, we were on the outside, and you know, going in and out, and she had stopped Adamcik and was talking to him and he came over and talked to me and went on back and talked to her and she said that her brother had taken Oswald to work that morning and she said that she had seen him put some kind of a package in the back seat of her brother's car. She told us it could have been a rifle--is what she said. She said it was either in a brown paper box or wrapped in brown paper.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day?

Mr. STOVALL. It must have been around 5:30, because it was--I believe it was 6 when we got back to the office.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring somebody back with you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we brought Michael Paine--he rode with the sheriff's deputies and we brought Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and Marina's two children.

Mr. BALL. And did you take them into the offices of the police?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. We took them into the Homicide and Robbery Bureau.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to them after that?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that day--I didn't. We took them from there into the Forgery Bureau because there was so many people in our office up there.

Mr. BALL. Into which bureau?

Mr. STOVALL. Into the Forgery Bureau--we took them from the Homicide Bureau into the Forgery Bureau because they had room in there where we could leave them.

Mr. BALL. What did you do the rest of that day?

Mr. STOVALL. After that we went--we called on the phone--Rose did--trying to find this Wesley Frazier, who was this Mrs. Randle's brother to talk to him about this package that his sister said Oswald had put in his car that morning. Rose checked around and finally located him at a clinic in Irving. He called and found out where Wesley Frazier was--he called the Irving Police Department and talked to Detective McCabe out there and told him what the situation was and McCabe told us to call him back later and he would see if he couldn't get ahold of him out there and so we called him back in 15 or 20 minutes, I guess, and he said that he had the boy at the Police Department out there.

Mr. BALL. You went out there and talked to him?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you also searched their home, didn't you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did.

Mr. BALL. And then you brought Linnie Randle and Wesley Frazier into Dallas and took statements from them?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; we didn't take the affidavits from them, but I don't recall who did, but after the affidavits were taken, we started back to Irving with them, they also had a minister from their church with them, I believe. We started back to Irving and we got about halfway, I guess, and they called us on the radio to return to the station with the witnesses and we came back and Rose called the captain from the basement phone down there and he said he wanted to take Wesley Frazier up and run him on the polygraph, and he agreed to this and so we took him up there, and we didn't have a man on the polygraph at that time. I think he left around 9 o'clock and so we called him on the phone and he came back down and got there around 11:15 or 11:30.

Mr. BALL. And it was about 12:10 when you ran the polygraph on Frazier, wasn't it?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; it was about 12:10 when we finished, I think, when he finished running it.

Mr. BALL. About 12:10 when you finished the polygraph on Frazier?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then, what did you do?

Mr. STOVALL. Then, we went back down to the basement. We had left Frazier's sister and the minister down in the basement, as well as I remember. And we took him back down there and then we went on back out to Irving and left them.

Mr. BALL. When you took the polygraph, you were present during the polygraph examination of Frazier, were you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And during this examination, did you have before you the affidavit which Frazier had made?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You didn't at that time?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who did the questioning?

Mr. STOVALL. R. D. Lewis, he's the polygraph operator.

I might explain that to you--in our polygraph room we've got a two-way mirror there and in another room behind it, so that the officer that is investigating the case, if he wants to, can watch the examination being given, and you can hear the questions and the answers.

Mr. BALL. Did you go home, then, after that?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; after we took them back to Irving we went home.

Mr. BALL. The next day, you made another search of the Paine home, didn't you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did.

Mr. BALL. About what time?

Mr. STOVALL. Must have been around 1 o'clock, just past noon, 1:00 p.m.

Mr. BALL. And did you obtain a search warrant first this day?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did.

Mr. BALL. From what judge?

Mr. STOVALL. From J. B. Brown, Jr.

Mr. BALL. Who went out on the search party?

Mr. STOVALL. Detectives Moore, Rose, Adamcik and myself. We went by the Irving Police Department and picked up Detective McCabe and he went with us.

Mr. BALL. Moore is also a detective attached to the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, Homicide Bureau.

Mr. BALL. And that day you arrived at the Paine home about what time?

Mr. STOVALL. I would judge roughly around 1:30 or 2 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. And did you knock on the door?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did, and Ruth Paine, I believe was the only one there at the time.

Mr. BALL. And what did you say and what did she say to you?

Mr. STOVALL. We told her that we returned, we wanted to, to make a further search of the house and we showed her the search warrant at the time, and I believe she said we didn't need that, to come on in and that we could search the house anytime we wanted to.

Mr. BALL. And did you search the house?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. We mainly concentrated our search of the garage this time, because the first search of the garage had been a rather quick one, and not having been in the garage on the first search at all, and I know Rose hadn't spent much time out there because he didn't have time to on the length of time we spent at the house. So, we searched the garage and concentrated our search there.

Ruth Paine came out into the garage and I told you Ruth Paine was the only one there awhile ago--I remember Michael Paine was in the garage. I think he came up after we got there--I'm not sure--it's possible that he got there after we got there, but I don't recall, but both of them came out in this garage and showed us the stuff that belonged to Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald and showed us the stuff that belonged to them and they left.

Mr. BALL. Do you mean they left you in the garage?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, they got in the car and drove off. They left their house.

Mr. BALL. You have made a report of what you did that day?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you have that before you, Mr. Stovall?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Have you refreshed your memory from the report?

Mr. STOVALL. I glanced over this--I've read this first and I haven't read this one.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to take some time to look over that report of your search on the 23d of November 1963?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You stayed in the garage how long?

Mr. STOVALL. It seems like we were in that garage about 1-1/2 or 2 hours. We might have been there longer than that. We made a thorough search of the garage.

Mr. BALL. Was there some reason you went out there the second time?

Mr. STOVALL. To the garage?

Mr. BALL. No, to the Paine home on the Irving Street address?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; the main reason we went out there--we wanted to make a more thorough search of the place. The first search that--we didn't actually have time to stay as long as we needed to, to check the whole house.

Mr. BALL. Were you given any specific instructions by anyone from your department as to what to look for?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you make a list of what you had found and took with you on that day?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did.

Mr. BALL. Is this the list?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, it is.

Mr. BALL. And where was that made?

Mr. STOVALL. That was made down at the city hall in the Homicide Bureau.

Mr. BALL. I would like to mark this as "Stovall Exhibit B."

(Instrument referred to marked as "Stovall Exhibit B," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Now, at that time did you find any snapshots that appeared to be Oswald in the photograph?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; Rose did, and when he looked at them, he said, "Look at this." At the time he said that--he showed us the snapshots and the negatives to me.

Mr. BALL. Did they show you what appeared to be Oswald in the snapshots?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. He had the negatives and snapshots?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And he showed Oswald--what was significant about the photograph?

Mr. STOVALL. He was in a standing position just outside of the house holding a rifle in one hand and he was wearing a pistol in a holster on his right hip and he was holding two papers in the other hand.

Mr. BALL. Did you take the snapshots?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we took the snapshots.

Mr. BALL. And the negatives?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where are they listed on this exhibit--this Exhibit B?

Mr. STOVALL. I believe we listed them where we've got "Miscellaneous photographs and maps." There were several other photographs that we took when we were there.

Mr. BALL. They were in the garage, were they?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where were they in the garage that you saw?

Mr. STOVALL. As well as I remember, they were in a brown cardboard box about, I guess, 2 feet by a foot and a half or something like that.

Mr. BALL. What was in the box with them?

Mr. STOVALL. There were, as well as I remember, a few books in there and letters and papers and photographs.

Mr. BALL. Now, you also found some bags, didn't you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; there were some seabags.

Mr. BALL. What color?

Mr. STOVALL. One of them was--I think both of them were a kind of an Army color--olive drab, whatever you call it.

Mr. BALL. And suitcases?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; there were some blue suitcases and I think a brown one.

Mr. BALL. Made out of what kind of material?

Mr. STOVALL. It appeared to be a leather material.

Mr. BALL. You said there were three--you've mentioned blue and brown, is there any other color?

Mr. STOVALL. There was, as well as I remember--one of the brown ones was a leather appearing suitcase and the other was more of a--some kind of a paper or cardboard suitcase, as well as I remember that thing. It was partially torn, I mean, it had been well used and was coming apart.

Mr. BALL. And were there three?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what was the color of the third one?

Mr. STOVALL. I believe it was brown also.

Mr. BALL. Leather or paper or cardboard?

Mr. STOVALL. No; this was paper--it was some kind of a paper deal or cardboard.

Mr. BALL. Now, you also found a magazine advertisement from Klein's Department Store, Klein's in Chicago?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; that was in the same box with the photographs.

Mr. BALL. Just for illustration of your testimony, I would like to have marked as an exhibit to the deposition your report of the search of November 22, 1963, as your Exhibit No. C, and your report of the search of November 23, 1963, of the Paine residence as Exhibit No. D.

(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "Stovall Exhibits C and D," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. You mention in there a map--what kind of map or maps did you find there?

Mr. STOVALL. I don't recall just what kind of maps they were.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day?

Mr. STOVALL. Must have been around 4:30 or 5, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Did Mrs. Paine or Mr. Paine say anything more to you than you have already told us?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; as well as I recall, Mr. and Mrs. Paine were both gone from the house when we left there.

Mr. BALL. You took these materials with you that you have on this list?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You took them down to where?

Mr. STOVALL. We took them down to our office.

Mr. BALL. And you made a list of them that day, did you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you do anything else on this investigation?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; that's all I can recall that I did on the investigation. I might add, there was--well, you have that on the list--some property.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. STOVALL. When we took this identification off of Lee Oswald that had this selective service card, the name Hidell, and he also had his own identification--at the time we were in the garage we found some negatives out there that appeared that he had make a snapshot of a selective service card, and on the back of the negatives it was where the name would have been typed in--there was some stuff on the back of the negatives to block out the name when it was reprinted, and there were some selective service cards that he had printed himself out there from a negative that were blank and which appeared to be the same that he had on him at the time, on the 22d of November, that had the name of "A. Hidell" typed in on it.

Mr. BALL. Did you appear at any showups of Oswald?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you at any of the interrogations of Oswald?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, I think that's all, Mr. Stovall. Thank you very much for coming over here.

Mr. STOVALL. Okay, thank you.

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you so much, Mr. Stovall, we appreciate your coming by.

Mr. STOVALL. I hope it was of some help to you.

TESTIMONY OF WALTER EUGENE POTTS

The testimony of Walter Eugene Potts was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn, please?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. POTTS. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. POTTS. Walter Eugene Potts.

Mr. BALL. What business or occupation are you in?

Mr. POTTS. I am a detective with the police department, homicide, Dallas.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the police department in Dallas?

Mr. POTTS. Since October 21, 1947.

Mr. BALL. And how long have you been with the homicide department?

Mr. POTTS. June 6, 1956.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about where you were born and where you were educated and what you have done since then?

Mr. POTTS. I was born at Sherman, Tex., April 28, 1922, and I came to Dallas in 1924 and was raised here in Dallas, attended public schools in Dallas, graduated from this Dallas--it's Crozier Tech now, but it was Dallas Technical High School right here on Bryan Street in 1941, and when I graduated I went to work for Southwest Airmotive at Love Field, and I worked for Taycee Badgett Aviation in 1942 and 1943, in Shreveport, La., and I took an aviation cadet mental and physical down there and came back to Dallas to be inducted into the service, and I worked for Lockheed at Love Field before I went in the service, and I went in the service in July 1945. I was discharged in January 1947. I was in the 796th Military Police Battalion in Vienna, Austria, and also the 505th there.

I came back and went to work for the Taylor Publishing Co. just before I went to work for the police department. My mother and father, they still live here out on Brookfield and my sister lives here. I am one of the very few native boys in this police department down here--that's raised right here.

Mr. BALL. And on November 22, 1963, you had the day off, didn't you?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; that was my day off.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear on the radio the President had been shot?

Mr. POTTS. Well, my wife and I had gone to the cleaners up there at Jim Miller and Military, and I suppose it was around 12:30 or a quarter to 1--around 1 o'clock and we pulled up in front of the cleaners there and Mr. Wright at the barbershop came out to the car and he said, "Have you heard about the President getting shot?"

You know, I thought he was joking and I thought he was kidding and I turned on my car radio and there it was.

We went on back home and I called the office immediately and talked to Detective Baker, he's a lieutenant now, and he said he was calling all the men back and I started to get dressed--get ready, and I told him I would be there as soon as I could, and I got dressed and got there within the hour, which was around 2 or before.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you first got there?

Mr. POTTS. When I was walking across the street there, I parked my car over at the Scottish Rite parking lot there and it's the Masonic lot and when I come across the street there at Commerce and Harwood this officer on the corner there said, "Did you hear about Tippit getting killed?" I said, "No; I didn't hear about that." He said, "Yes; I understand he got killed on a disturbance call over in Oak Cliff." That's the first I had heard about Tippit and when I got to the office, I walked in and Baker told me, "We have some people here from the Texas School Book Depository--there are four or five of them back there," and he said, "Would you go back there and take some affidavits from them?" And I said, "Sure," and I went back there and took one from this Arce, and I was in the process of taking one from this Jack Dougherty when I heard some officers coming in the door there, and I heard one of them say, "We've got the man that killed Tippit."

So, they brought him on back in while we were sitting back in the squadroom and I was sitting back there with Dougherty and Arce, and they came by and put him in the side interrogation room back there. As you walk in the door, there is an interrogation room right straight ahead and then you turn right to go back in the squadroom and you go on back in the squadroom, and this Mr. Dougherty looked at me and he said, "I know that man."

He said, "He works down there in that building--the Texas School Book Depository Building." He said, "I don't know his name, but I know him." So did Arce--he said, "Yes, he works down there."

So, I went ahead and took those affidavits from them--from those people and we got them notarized.

Mr. BALL. You mean Arce and Dougherty?

Mr. POTTS. Arce and Dougherty. There were some more officers back there taking affidavits from some of the others--some of those other people--I don't know--you know, time and all the confusion around there, you don't exactly know what time, but my partner, Bill Senkel, and F. M. Turner--we work a three-man squad, and Bill came around and he talked to Captain Fritz, and he said "Come on, let's go. We are going out to 1026 North Beckley."

He came around and told me, he said--he asked me if I had finished taking the affidavits, and I told him, "Yes," and he said, "Captain Fritz wants you and I to go out to Oswald's or Hidell's or Oswald's room."

On his person--he must have had--he did have identification with the name Alex Hidell and Oswald--Lee Harvey Oswald, but Lt. E. L. Cunningham of the forgery bureau, who used to be a member of the homicide and robbery bureau before he made lieutenant, he went with us and we went out there.

Mr. BALL. Before you went out there, did you get a search warrant?

Mr. POTTS. No; we didn't--we didn't get a search warrant at that time. We went to the location and talked to the people there.

Mr. BALL. That's Lt. E. L. Cunningham?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And who else?

Mr. POTTS. B. L. Senkel.

Mr. BALL. And yourself?

Mr. POTTS. And myself.

Mr. BALL. And you went out to where?

Mr. POTTS. 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. BALL. What happened when you got there?

Mr. POTTS. We got there and we talked to this Mrs.--I believe her name was Johnson.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. A. C. Johnson?

Mr. POTTS. Mrs. Johnson and Mrs. Roberts.

Mr. BALL. Earlene Roberts?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; and they didn't know a Lee Harvey Oswald or an Alex Hidell either one and they couldn't--they just didn't have any idea who we were talking about, so the television--it is a rooming house, and there was a television----

Mr. BALL. Did you check their registration books?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; we looked at the registration book--Senkel, I think, or Cunningham--well, we all looked through the registration book and there wasn't anyone by that name, and the television was on in the living room. There's an area there where the roomers sit, I guess it's the living quarters--it flashed Oswald's picture on there and one of the women, either Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Johnson said, "That's the man that lives here. That's Mr. Lee--O. H. Lee." She said, "His room is right here right off of the living room."

Senkel or Cunningham, one of them, called the office and they said that Turner was en route with a search warrant and we waited there until 4:30 or 5 that afternoon. We got out there about 3.

Mr. BALL. You waited there in the home?

Mr. POTTS. We waited there in the living quarters.

Mr. BALL. You did not go into the small room that had been rented by Lee?

Mr. POTTS. No; we didn't--we didn't search the room at all until we got the warrant.

Mr. BALL. Who brought the warrant out?

Mr. POTTS. Judge David Johnston.

Mr. BALL. The judge issued it, but who brought it out?

Mr. POTTS. Well, F. M. Turner and H. M. Moore was with him, and Judge David Johnston was there, and also Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander.

Mr. BALL. Did David L. Johnston go too, the justice of the peace?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, the judge was there in person.

Mr. BALL. He was?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; and also Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander--they all came in the same car.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. POTTS. Well, after we showed Johnson the search warrant, I think it was Johnson, we went on in the room and continued to search the room, and we took everything in there that we could find.

Mr. BALL. Would you describe the room, the appearance of the room?

Mr. POTTS. Well, the room was off--as you walk into the house, the living area, the room was right there at the front door, and it was off to the left of the living room. It was a real small room. It was, oh, I don't suppose it was 6 to 8 feet wide, and maybe 10 feet long. It was a real small room. It had a half bed in there and back in the back there it had a shelf--some shelves and stuff that he had some food and stuff back there in.

Mr. BALL. How was it furnished?

Mr. POTTS. Well, it just had the bed in there, and I believe, if remember, it might have had a chair--I'm not sure. So, Moore, Senkel, Cunningham and all of us--we searched that room--we took everything in there all but--there was some food on the shelf we didn't take and we went through the trash can and there was some banana peelings and stuff, but everything in there--we took everything in there we could find. We even took the pillow cases off of one of the pillows and put stuff in it. He had one of those little zipper-type bags and he had a lot of stuff in it.

Mr. BALL. What color was the bag?

Mr. POTTS. I don't recall the color of that bag.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring it with you--you picked it up too, and brought it in, too?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; we brought everything out of the room we could find.

Mr. BALL. Were there curtains on the windows?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; I think so.

Mr. BALL. Hanging on rods?

Mr. POTTS. If I remember correctly, I think there was curtains on the walls, but we looked behind the curtains and everything--and looked behind the blinds and everything.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see anything of a leather holster?

Mr. POTTS. A .38 leather holster--I have a list there of all the stuff we brought out of there.

Mr. BALL. Could I see that, please?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; you sure can. This is a list Mr. Turner and Mr. Moore and myself compiled after we brought it into the office.

Mr. BALL. You brought the stuff into the office?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We'll mark this as "Potts Exhibit A."

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibit A," for identification.)

Mr. POTTS. You can have that if you would like.

Mr. BALL. This will be two exhibits--A-1 and A-2.

(The instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibits A-l and A-2," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Did you ask Mrs. Johnson whether or not she had ever seen the holster before?

Mr. POTTS. I don't recall asking her that.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask Mrs. Earlene Roberts if she had seen the holster before?

Mr. POTTS. I don't recall talking to her about that. They weren't too familiar with what was in that room. I didn't talk to them too much about it.

Mr. BALL. You recovered a Dallas city map, too, didn't you?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; that had some markings on it in pencil.

Mr. BALL. All right, go ahead.

Mr. POTTS. There was a red notebook there that had a lot of names in it and addresses in it and a lot of Russian writing--and it had a diagram of the Red Square in there, I suppose, that's what it looked like to me. I suppose that's what it was, but, of course, it was all written in Russian and about half of that book I didn't understand.

Mr. BALL. You brought all of this property to the city hall?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. And you made the inventory we have had marked here as "Exhibits A-1 and A-2"?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; Mr. Moore and Turner and I compiled it.

Mr. BALL. Now, on that same day, did you do anything more?

Mr. POTTS. Let me say--later on in the afternoon--we worked the rest of that night, up until--I don't recall what time I did leave there--it was pretty late.

Mr. BALL. I have here a document which has been marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 426." Did you find this document at the 1026 North Beckley address that day, do you remember?

Mr. POTTS. I recall seeing this; yes, I do. I don't know which one of the officers picked it up.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember where it was?

Mr. POTTS. No; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Do--you don't know where it was kept?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. But was it brought from the room?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; it was--here's my initial in the right hand corner, and here is Mr. Moore's.

Mr. BALL. What does that initial mean?

Mr. POTTS. That's my initial, "W. E. P."

Mr. BALL. And there is "11-22-63"--what does that mean?

Mr. POTTS. That means--we initial all of the evidence we bring out of there. At the time--this was going to court, and if this was brought out in court that would be my initials right there--I recovered this.

Mr. BALL. Did you initial it right there in the room?

Mr. POTTS. We initialed it after we brought it to the station.

Mr. BALL. These are the initials of the men who were there with you?

Mr. POTTS. That's H. M. Moore and I guess it's F. M. Turner--"F. M. T."--that's my partner. Yes, sir; for the purpose of identification in court, we initialed everything we could possibly write on.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you, on the 23d of November, take part in the investigation of either the death of Oswald or the shooting of the President?

Mr. POTTS. Well, I reported to work at 10 o'clock in the morning and we worked until midnight that night--it was mostly telephone conversations--they had to put extra phones in our office. We were swamped--I talked to people from England, Canada, Peru--all over was just calling in there--just a continual call--call--call--and it kept most of us real busy answering telephone calls that day.

Mr. BALL. Did you take part in any showup of Oswald?

Mr. POTTS. I believe I did--was that the 23d--at 2:15 that afternoon on the 23d, I was in on one.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you?

Mr. POTTS. Mr. Senkel and I went to the jail and stood by the jail elevator and waited until the showup came down, and I was thinking there was M. G. Hall and Charlie Brown and a jailer or two that brought that showup down. They were all handcuffed together, as I recall.

Mr. BALL. Who is M. G. Hall?

Mr. POTTS. He is a detective in our bureau.

Mr. BALL. And who is Charlie Brown?

Mr. POTTS. Charlie Brown is also an officer assigned to the bureau. Now, I might be wrong about that, but it seems to me like they were the two that showed up then, but they might not have been.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you have anything to do with the selection of the men who were to be in the showup?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir; all I did was just to go down to the jail door and walk with the showup out to the stage, and I stood out on the stage while the showup was conducted.

Mr. BALL. How was it conducted? Describe it.

Mr. POTTS. Well, there is an anteroom before you get to the showup stage. Now, the witnesses were out front behind this transparent black nylon screen. There's a light set at an angle on the stage where the person on the stage can't see the people out in the audience. They brought them out handcuffed together and this John Thurman Horne went in first--no, that's wrong--Lujan went on first, because he would be No. 4. You see, they're got numbers above the--above them higher up there.

Mr. BALL. What is his full name?

Mr. POTTS. Daniel Lujan, and then Oswald was No. 3, Knapp No. 2.

Mr. BALL. What is Knapp's full name?

Mr. POTTS. David Knapp and John Thurman Horne was No. 1.

Mr. BALL. And what happened then, after they went out on the stage?

Mr. POTTS. Well, Detective Leavelle--now, I don't know who the witness was that they were showing them to--the showup to.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Leavelle?

Mr. POTTS. I heard Leavelle question each one of the men. There is a black square on the floor and he tells each one of them to take one step forward and they have a microphone above, and I don't recall exactly what he asked them--It was just to get them to talk and identify themselves. We conduct them different--sometimes we ask them their names and their address and their occupation.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask the questions?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Leavelle ask the questions?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; he was up there.

Mr. BALL. And, did he direct his questions to the men on the stage?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; to the men on the stage.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear them?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; I heard them answer.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald speak up or not?

Mr. POTTS. Well, he was complaining all during the showup. He had on a T-shirt and the rest of them didn't have on T-shirts, and he was complaining, "Well, everybody's got on a shirt and everything, and I've got a T-shirt on"--he was very belligerent about the showup. He wouldn't cooperate in any way. He was just making all kinds of commotion out there and he was doing more of the talking than anybody.

Mr. BALL. What kind of commotion was he making?

Mr. POTTS. Well, he was doing a lot of talking about him being in a T-shirt, and "nobody else has got on a T-shirt and I've got on a T-shirt, this is unfair," and all that--just generally talking and after the showup was over, we just accompanied them back from the stage out to the anteroom door and just walked along with them and the elevator--took them on the elevator, and that's all we had to do with the show.

Mr. BALL. That's all you had to do with it?

Mr. POTTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What were the appearances of the four men who came out?

Mr. POTTS. They were similar in size--I didn't pick them--I don't know who did, but they were generally the same size, and, of course, the ages are a little different here.

Mr. BALL. What ages were they, do you know?

Mr. POTTS. Well, Horne was 17--he was born November 6, 1945, I believe that's right.

Mr. BALL. John Thurman Horne?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; and this David Edmond Knapp, he was 18. He was born October 22, 1945, and this Daniel Lujan, he was 26, and he was born February 15, 1937.

Mr. BALL. And do you have the addresses of these three men?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; I do--now, I got the addresses off of--out of our records bureau--off of their arrest cards. I don't know whether they gave a fictitious address or not.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. POTTS. Now, Horne is 2942 Ann Arbor.

Mr. BALL. 2942 Ann Arbor?

Mr. POTTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And that's Dallas?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; that's in Oak Cliff.

Mr. BALL. And what was he charged with--why was he in jail?

Mr. POTTS. Traffic tickets--he had a number of traffic tickets.

Mr. BALL. Traffic tickets?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; he had a stack of them--all on the same arrest date.

Mr. BALL. He did?

Mr. POTTS. Yes--red lights and so on.

Mr. BALL. And what about David Knapp, what was he in for?

Mr. POTTS. He was in for investigation of theft and he lived at 2922 Alabama. That's in Oak Cliff.

Mr. BALL. And he was in for investigation?

Mr. POTTS. Investigation of burglary and theft.

Mr. BALL. Was he convicted?

Mr. POTTS. Well, I don't know anything about that.

Mr. BALL. You don't know where he is now?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir; I have never seen those men since.

Mr. BALL. You don't know whether he was convicted or not?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. What about Lujan?

Mr. POTTS. Daniel Lujan--[spelling] L-u-j-a-n, I guess that's the way you pronounce it. He was born February 15, 1937, and gave the address of 1804 Lear [spelling] L-e-a-r Street, and he was in for investigation of violation of State narcotic laws.

Mr. BALL. And was he convicted, or do you know?

Mr. POTTS. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Do you know if any one of these men has ever been convicted of a felony?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. You know nothing about that?

Mr. POTTS. I know nothing about them at all. In fact, that's the first time I have ever seen them and I suppose the last time.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you take any further part in the investigation?

Mr. POTTS. That Presidential assassination--I think that's about all I done on that.

Mr. BALL. I think that one day you went out and talked to Mr. Fischer?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; I talked to a boy named Fischer--on the 25th of November. Of course, you know I was off duty on the Ruby thing.

Mr. BALL. Yes; I know that.

Mr. POTTS. I was at home then and I was sitting there and my wife said, "They are going to televise this transfer of Oswald." I said, "I've seen enough of that and I don't want to look at it." And she said, "We need milk and bread for lunch," and so I got up and got in the car and went to Safeway and was standing in line to check out there and a woman--well, it looked like a woman--came out and said, "Oswald has just been shot." Well, I thought that was a big joke, too, and went back out there and turned on the car radio and there that was. I came on back on duty that day.

Mr. BALL. When you went out to see Mr. Fischer----

Mr. POTTS. Now, Mr. Turner had this information about this Fischer man. He and Mr. Senkel--they were in the motorcade that day. In fact, they were in the lead car.

Mr. BALL. Senkel was?

Mr. POTTS. Senkel, Turner, and Chief Lumpkin were in the lead car in the motorcade, and I think Turner had gotten this information about this Fischer fellow. I had never heard about him until Turner asked me, he said, "Let's go out and talk to this Mr. Fischer." He said, "He is supposed to have been standing down there watching the parade go by and he saw this man in this window," and he wanted to know--we took a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald out there to see if he could identify him as being the man he saw in the window, and we went out there on the 25th of November with Lee Harvey Oswald's picture to 4007 Flamingo Street in Mesquite. That's where this Ronald Fischer lives, and he works for the county auditor's office down there. He was working that day and most of the county employees stood out on the street to watch the parade, and we took his picture out there and he said, "I can't say for sure that's the man that I saw in that window up there, but it looks like him." He said he saw him up there just a few minutes before he heard the shots fired.

Mr. BALL. Now, you made written reports of these investigations you are testifying about?

Mr. POTTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you have refreshed your memory from them--from your own handwritten notes?

Mr. POTTS. That's right--I have.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have marked your report on your officer's duty on Friday, November 22, and also on the 23d and 25th of November, being two sheets, numbered 230 and 231, as the next exhibit, and page 3 of your report, being No. 232, being a report of your participation in the showup on November 23, 1963, at 2:15--as the next exhibit.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibits B and C," respectively, for identification.)

Mr. BALL. I think that's all and I do want to thank you very much.

Mr. POTTS. You are certainly welcome.

Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you can come down and read it and sign it or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the Commission. You can tell me what you want to do.

Mr. POTTS. Oh, I will sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right, then you will be notified when it is ready for you to sign.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN P. ADAMCIK

The testimony of John P. Adamcik was taken at 10 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you want to stand and raise your right hand, sir?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name?

Mr. ADAMCIK. John P. Adamcik.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I live right now at 4621 Samuell Boulevard, apartment 166.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That is over in the eastern part of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. In Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. ADAMCIK. It is in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, sir?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I am 26.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I am a detective with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Dallas?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to high school?

Mr. ADAMCIK. LaGrange, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. LaGrange High School?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I worked there in LaGrange for a short period of time, and came to Dallas and worked for Temco Aircraft Co.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do for them?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I was an assembler.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Then I went in the Marine Corps for a short period of time.

Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Marine Corps?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I was in there approximately 2 months, got out on a hardship discharge.

Mr. BELIN. You mean family?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was it an honorable discharge?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; I got an honorable discharge--hardship discharge.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I went home and assisted the family, because my father was injured. That was the reason I got the discharge.

And I don't know, I got everybody going in shape which would be, I think it was probably around a year, and I came back to Dallas and got on the police department.

Mr. BELIN. And you have been in the police department ever since?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Every since, except I took another 6-month leave of absence and I spent 6 months on active duty with the U.S. Army Reserves. After the hardship ended, I went back in the Army for 6 months.

Mr. BELIN. Your position with the Dallas Police Department is now what?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. BELIN. Are you married?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. ADAMCIK. One-month-old baby.

Mr. BELIN. A month old baby. Boy or girl?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Boy.

Mr. BELIN. You must be pretty proud?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is his name?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Mark Allen.

Mr. BELIN. Your wife taking good care of that baby?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Officer, first I want to talk about November 22, 1963. Were you on duty on that date?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir; I wasn't, not at the time pertaining to this.

Mr. BELIN. Not at the time of the assassination?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't.

Mr. BELIN. You were off duty?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I was at home, off duty.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get on duty that day?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I was supposed to go on at 3. However, when I heard of the assassination--I was supposed to go to court at 2 o'clock, and I reported down to the courts and the courts were closed, so I immediately reported to my office, which was about 2 or so.

Mr. BELIN. You were at the office the rest of the afternoon?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir. I stayed at the office a short period of time. I wasn't there over an hour when Oswald was brought in by the arresting officers and we were asked--Detectives Stovall and Rose and myself were asked by Captain Fritz and the supervisor to go to his residence in Irving, to the Paine residence.

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald give them that address?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't know. I don't recall whether he gave them the address or they found it on his person in evidence as identification.

Mr. BELIN. What was the address?

Mr. ADAMCIK. 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving. I don't have any idea how that came about at all. All I remember is that we were told to go to this address. I don't even remember whether we had a name, a definite name. We were told to go to this address, that this was the address he had on his person, or something similar to that, and we did what we were told.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was this?

Mr. ADAMCIK. This was approximately 2:30. Could I use my report?

Mr. BELIN. Sure. You take your report out and refresh your recollection.

Mr. ADAMCIK. I have it on here, the times mainly. This would be approximately 2:30.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you have a search warrant when you went out there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir; we did not.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you didn't?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, at the time, we didn't know what we would find. We didn't have any idea what this address meant to us, and we were mainly going over to see who was there.

We decided if we were not allowed in the house, invited in, that we could get a search warrant later to go in, whereas at the time we didn't have any idea that that address actually had any connection with these people or with Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you go with?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I went with Detectives Rose and Stovall, and we were met by three county officers there at the scene before we went up, because being out of the city limits of Dallas, we had three county officers go along with us, because it was in their jurisdiction.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you get there?