Chapter XVIII: Part 18

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I was in the Infantry, and I was a mess sergeant, and I cooked principally all the time I was in.

Mr. BELIN. You were the one we all complained about when the food wasn't good?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; if you want to put it that way. I got a few complaints.

Mr. BELIN. Then after your discharge, what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. After my discharge, I came to Dallas, I married and went to work for Interstate Theatres. First went to work for Railway Express Agency here and worked for a short period of time and then I went to work for Interstate Theatres.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do for Interstate?

Mr. GRAVES. Let me retract that. I believe I went to work for S. H. Lynch Co. first and later changed to Paramount Distributors, and they went broke, and then I went with Interstate Theatres, and that is where I was working when I went to work for the police department.

Mr. BELIN. Were they all related? In other words, when you say Paramount, was that----

Mr. GRAVES. No. S. H. Lynch Co. had a cigarette-candy item section of the company in connection with the beer distributors. Paramount Distributors was a vending machine company which went out of business, which was a separate business, didn't have anything to do with the movie industry or picture industry, so to speak.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with that aspect of the business?

Mr. GRAVES. The Paramount Distributors, I was a bookkeeper.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went from there to where?

Mr. GRAVES. Interstate Theatres.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do for Interstate Theatres?

Mr. GRAVES. They call it an operating engineer, air-conditioning operating engineer was the title, for it has to do with operating the equipment for the purpose of air conditioning and refrigeration.

Mr. BELIN. Of theatres?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then from there you went to the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; that's right.

Mr. BELIN. What year was that?

Mr. GRAVES. October 31, 1949.

Mr. BELIN. And you have been with the Dallas Police Department ever since?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Graves, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was that an off day for you, or what?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; it was.

Mr. BELIN. When did you go to work, if at all?

Mr. GRAVES. About 2 o'clock that day.

Mr. BELIN. Had you already heard the news of the assassination?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, yes. When I came to work, I had already heard. That is the reason I went to work, as a matter of fact.

Mr. BELIN. On November 22, 1963, could you state what you did after you got to the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, the first thing that I did was take a statement from, I believe her name was, Helen Markham.

Let me see; yes, I took a statement from Miss or Mrs. Helen Markham.

Mr. BELIN. How did you happen to see Mrs. Markham or Miss Markham?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course you have to be there to realize the mass confusion, but a squad uniform officer had brought this lady in and she was quite hysterical, and they put her in a little room, just across the hall from our bureau, and notified the lieutenant that they had her over there, and when I walked in they told me to go talk to this lady and take an affidavit from her, which I did.

Mr. BELIN. You say she was quite hysterical. Describe her actions.

Mr. GRAVES. She was crying and upset, naturally.

Mr. BELIN. Was she saying anything at all?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't recall exactly what she was saying--what most hysterical women say--wringing her hands and talking about the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. You took an affidavit from her?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I held a showup along with Leavelle and the Chief and Captain Fritz, and I don't remember who else, about a roomful.

Mr. BELIN. Could you state what occurred in that showup? How many people were in this showup?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't remember exactly how many people.

Mr. BELIN. You mean of the men that were actually lined up?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. I believe four or five, I think. He was identified as No. 2 man. Let me see, he was identified as No. 2 man in a four-man lineup, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the people were who were in this particular lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. Nobody but Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know that Lee Harvey Oswald was No. 2 man in that lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection or notes which would in any way give the approximate physical description of the other men in this lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I don't. I was present out in the front with Mrs. Markham, and I don't remember exactly who talked to the people or men that were on the stage. It is quite possible that they might have the names of the other people that were in this lineup, but I don't myself. I don't remember this physical description.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not they were all white men or was one or more a Negro?

Mr. GRAVES. They were all white men.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about their approximate ages?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I don't. Let me say this, that it would be very unusual if we had a showup and asked a certain person or persons to appear in this showup, if they put anything other than men that fit their approximate size and age in there with them, and race and color, I might add, because we just don't operate that way.

Mr. BELIN. What is your general mode of operation with regard to showups? Perhaps you could tell us this.

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; I sure can. When we want to show a person up, we call the jail supervisor and tell him what we want and who we want in the showup, and to put two or three or four other people with him, the approximate age, size, and so forth.

And they do that for us, and we--the only contact, the only dealings we have had with them is talking to them while they are on the stage.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the approximate age or size, do you specify what age or size you want?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, it is not necessary, because they are looking at the man that you are bringing down.

Mr. BELIN. Well----

Mr. GRAVES. So all he has to do is pick them out.

Mr. BELIN. So what you mean is the approximate age and size of the particular person you want included in the showup, or is it of another particular age and size?

Mr. GRAVES. The fact is, if I was showing you, I would tell them to pull you for a showup and put some other men about your age and size. That is what it boils down to.

Mr. BELIN. Now, could you tell us what Mrs. or Miss Markham did or said when this particular showup took place? Were you standing right next to her?

Mr. GRAVES. About as close as I am to you, which would be approximately 4 or 5 feet.

Mr. BELIN. All right; the men walked in, I assume, is that correct?

Mr. GRAVES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Where was Mrs. Markham at that particular time?

Mr. GRAVES. She was standing in the center of the room, approximately in the first row of seats near the front.

Mr. BELIN. She was seated?

Mr. GRAVES. No; she was standing.

Mr. BELIN. She was standing?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did she look through an opening in the wall?

Mr. GRAVES. No; this is a screen, a nylon screen of some kind. I am sure you have seen them?

Mr. BELIN. She can see through, as I understand, but the people in the showup room cannot see the people on the other side of the screen. Is that correct?

Mr. GRAVES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you remember what she said or did after the men in the showup came in?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, she began to cry when he came in. He was next to the last man that come in in that order. No. 4, 3, 2, 1, and so forth that came in.

Mr. BELIN. You mean No. 4 came first, then No. 3 and then No. 2 and then No. 1?

Mr. GRAVES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. When did she start crying?

Mr. GRAVES. When he walked in, Oswald walked in.

Mr. BELIN. You mean when the No. 2 man walked in?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were they still walking at the time she started crying?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes. As soon as she saw him; yes. He would have to walk as far as from here to that stand, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. That would be about 6 or 8 feet?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes, sir; roughly.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did she do or say?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course she said that was the man that she saw, Oswald. I mean at this particular time.

Mr. BELIN. Did she ask to have the men turn so that she would see their profiles?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't recall if she asked that or not, but that is the normal procedure that we do that. We turn him profile, right, left, and to the rear, and back to the front, in that order.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything specific that she said at the time that she made the identification?

Mr. GRAVES. Nothing other than he is the one, No. 2 is the one.

Mr. BELIN. Was anything said by any of the men in the showup that would--did they speak any words or say anything at all?

Mr. GRAVES. If they did, I don't remember what was said. I am reasonably sure they asked some questions. That is the usual procedure. If they were, at this point I just don't remember what was said.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the dress of the people in the showup?

Mr. GRAVES. No; positively not.

Mr. BELIN. Does your police department ever take any photograph of an actual showup, I mean, insofar as still shots, to have any written or pictorial record of the men in the showup, as to what they were wearing or what they looked like?

Mr. GRAVES. That was not a policy or an order at this time, but it has been done, however, in the past.

But for various reasons, as I say, it is not the customary thing, because we have quite a number of showups that would necessitate a time element there, sometimes waiting on the proper people to take the picture, and so forth.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you have any recollection of in connection with this showup of Mrs. Markham or Miss Markham's identification?

Mrs. GRAVES. I don't remember anything outstanding at this moment; no.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about when this took place, this actual showup?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, let's see if I have it written down here. We put Lee Oswald in a four-man lineup in the city hall on November 22, 1963, at 4:30 p.m., and had Helen Markham view this lineup. She was positive on the identification of Oswald, and he was the No. 2 man in the four-man lineup.

Mr. BELIN. You were reading from your notes that you made of your actions on that day?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did on that day?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't remember anything else except this affidavit of Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe.

Mr. BELIN. That was on November 23, was it not?

Mr. GRAVES. November 23.

Mr. BELIN. I am still on November 22.

Mr. GRAVES. Have you had any of the reports that we have made?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. I have read them all, but I have to get this down for the record.

Mr. GRAVES. You want me to read this verbatim?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir; you can read it verbatim or else you can tell me if there is anything that you can develop beyond what you have on the written record that you submitted to your department.

I am very much interested in this, if you can develop anything. If you can't, then you can just summarize or repeat what you have put down in your written report.

Sometimes when you read something it triggers your memory and you remember something that you might not have put down at the time.

Mr. GRAVES. Offhand, I don't remember anything.

Mr. BELIN. Well, according to your written report, you took Helen Markham back to her address, to let her out?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember in talking with Helen Markham what she said as to why she happened to be in the vicinity of the Tippit shooting?

Mr. GRAVES. I believe she was going to catch a bus. I would have to see her affidavit to remember that exactly, but I think she was either going home or coming from work, one or the other, is the reason for her being at that location.

Mr. BELIN. Now you also later interviewed on that day several other people in connection with the Tippit murder, did you not?

Mr. GRAVES. I talked to some; yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who these were?

Mr. GRAVES. That would be Ted Callaway, Sam Guinyard, and Domingo Benavides.

Mr. BELIN. Did any of those men come down to a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. They did come down later, but I didn't have anything to do with the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with bringing them down to see a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Did all the men come down to a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. I think they did. I was told that they did, and I have not seen anything authentic about it.

Mr. BELIN. Now, your report says two of the three men came down to the city hall and gave affidavits on views of Oswald in the lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. That would be lineup.

Mr. BELIN. From my interpretation here from what we have, Ted Callaway and Sam Guinyard gave affidavits, but Domingo Benavides did not. Is there any particular reason that you know of why Benavides did not come down to give an affidavit or view a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I wouldn't have any idea.

Mr. BELIN. Well----

Mr. GRAVES. Because after this little episode with them, I never saw them or had any occasion to talk to them any further.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation particularly with Domingo Benavides?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I am going to try and refresh your recollection to see if I can help you a little bit.

I believe that he was driving a pickup truck at about the time of the Tippit shooting, and actually was the first one to place a call over Tippit's radio that Tippit had been shot. Does this strike a chord in your memory?

Mr. GRAVES. Not to me. He didn't tell me that. Leavelle talked to him to one side.

Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see. You weren't the one he talked to?

Mr. GRAVES. He didn't tell me that.

Mr. BELIN. But Officer Leavelle would be the one he talked to?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on November 22?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't remember anything else of any consequence. I had so many phone calls.

Mr. BELIN. You had a few phone calls to the police station that day?

Mr. GRAVES. Just a few, yes.

Mr. BELIN. What about on November 23?

Mr. GRAVES. That is the day I took the affidavit of Mrs. Bledsoe.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever bring Mrs. Bledsoe down to view the lineup at all, or not?

Mr. GRAVES. I didn't; no.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any particular reason why you elected not to take her down, if this was your election? I don't know if it was.

Mr. GRAVES. What?

Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason why you didn't bring her down to view a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. Not that I can think of.

Mr. BELIN. Now she claimed that she had seen Lee Harvey Oswald on a bus shortly after the assassination?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not you asked her to come down to a lineup and she refused to come down?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I didn't ask her to come down to a lineup herself. I asked her to come down and give an affidavit.

Mr. BELIN. Was she actually at the police department?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else ask--let me ask you this question. Whose responsibility would it have been to have a lineup for certain people? Is this the interviewing officer, or is this the person in charge of the investigation, or what?

Mr. GRAVES. In a case like this, it would have to be the person in charge of the entire investigation.

Mr. BELIN. Who would that have been? Insofar as Bledsoe?

Mr. GRAVES. Insofar as our bureau was concerned, it would have been Captain Fritz.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can remember on November 23?

Mr. GRAVES. Let me refresh my memory here, if I can. I don't know. I don't remember anything else on the 23d that was outstanding.

Mr. BELIN. Now on November 24--first, I want to take that part of November 24 up to the time of the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack Ruby. First, did you have any contact or anything to do with the investigation of the case on November 24, on Sunday?

Mr. GRAVES. No; not before he was transferred.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GRAVES. Nothing except that I was present during the latter part of the interrogation; part of it.

Mr. BELIN. Could you state the circumstances under which you were present? How you happened to be present?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I had been told that we were going to transfer Lee Harvey Oswald, and we were told to make preparations to do that, so that would necessitate going into the office where he was.

Mr. BELIN. What did you find when you went in the office?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I found, of course, Lee Harvey Oswald, Captain Fritz, and the people that I have named here. The others present were Mr. Holmes from the U.S. Post Office Department, Mr. Kelley from the Secret Service, Agent Sorrels from the Secret Service, L. D. Montgomery, detective; C. N. Dhority, J. R. Leavelle; and Chief Curry came in just a few minutes before we started to move.

Mr. BELIN. Did you participate in the bringing of Oswald down to be interrogated?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At about what time in the morning, was this?

Mr. GRAVES. I think that was around 9:30 a.m.

Mr. BELIN. Did you stay with him throughout the interrogation, or did you leave?

Mr. GRAVES. I stayed in the same room near. In the bureau, actually.

Mr. BELIN. This was done in Captain Fritz' office, was it not?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. After you brought Lee Harvey Oswald into Captain Fritz' office at 9:30 a.m., what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. I went back out and answered telephones and talked to people coming in.

Mr. BELIN. Did you witness any part of the early interrogation?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you go back into Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. GRAVES. Roughly, about 11:10 or 11:15 a.m.

Mr. BELIN. Well, the original time set for transfer was around 10 a.m.?

Mr. GRAVES. That was my understanding.

Mr. BELIN. All right, let me ask you, has anyone else taken your deposition here?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So you have already been questioned as to the transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That is something I don't want to get into. What about the interrogation? Do you remember any subjects that were covered?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I couldn't think of Mr. Kelley's name, the last time, but he questioned Oswald along the line of his activity in Mexico and in Russia.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not Oswald admitted that he was in Mexico?

Mr. GRAVES. I believe he did admit it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he said about his activities in Mexico?

Mr. GRAVES. I am too vague on that to make any statement on what he said. I don't remember exactly, so I would rather not say anything. I know that he did say something, but the best of my knowledge, it sure didn't amount to a great deal. Very evasive, as every other answer was.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything specific, any questions or any statements that Oswald made about any other subject that was discussed?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, he said that he had been a student of Marxism since he was 14, I believe, and Communist line, and that he, well, one of his last statements was that the American people would soon forget the President was shot. Of course he never admitted that he did it.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence whether or not he did it?

Mr. GRAVES. Oh, yes; he was asked, but of course----

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he said?

Mr. GRAVES. He said no, he didn't shoot him.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence whether or not he shot Officer Tippit?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence whether or not he owned a rifle?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what his answer was?

Mr. GRAVES. He said that he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence anything about a picture of him with a rifle?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what his statement was with regard to the picture?

Mr. GRAVES. He said, "You could superimpose anything you want to with cameras. It wasn't him."

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else, that you remember, about the picture?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked anything about the use of an alias?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; he was, but he denied that, of course.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked anything about his having a pistol in his possession when he was apprehended, or did he make any statements?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, he wasn't asked anything about the pistol in my presence.

Mr. BELIN. Did he make any statements about having a lawyer while he was in your presence?

Mr. GRAVES. Having a lawyer?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you brought him in, after you brought him in, which was around 9:30, how long did you stay there? Through about how many minutes of interrogation before you left?

Mr. GRAVES. Let's see, from 9:30 until approximately 11:15, somewhere along there.

Mr. BELIN. Were you in the room in which the interrogation occurred throughout this period?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, how long were you in the room where he was being interrogated?

Mr. GRAVES. About 10 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. You were there the first 10 minutes?

Mr. GRAVES. No; last 10 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any of the initial questions of the interrogation at all?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now you accompanied Oswald down from his fifth floor jail cell to Captain Fritz' office to be interrogated, is that correct?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with him when you picked him up at his jail cell?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you remember telling him he was going to be brought down for interrogation?

Mr. GRAVES. I told him they were going to transfer him.

Mr. BELIN. That is what you told him?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say as to that?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, he didn't have anything to say. He didn't know what transfer meant, I don't think. I think he meant from one jail cell to another. He didn't know that meant going to the county.

Mr. BELIN. When you brought him down to Captain Fritz' office, he of course had been there before, hadn't he?

Mr. GRAVES. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have any comments as he walked in the office about being interrogated or anything of that nature?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. He might have said something to the news media, I don't remember what it was.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald ever requested that he be provided a lawyer, insofar as your own personal knowledge is concerned? Did he ever make any such request to you or in your presence?

Mr. GRAVES. No, no; sure didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether or not he was ever advised that he had a right to have a lawyer?

Mr. GRAVES. Not in my presence.

Mr. BELIN. This is what I am asking, then, just of your own knowledge?

Mr. GRAVES. No; he wasn't.

Mr. BELIN. He might have been by someone else, but it wasn't done before you?

Mr. GRAVES. Might have been by someone else, but not in my presence.

Mr. BELIN. Was this as much contact as you had with Oswald? You indicate you saw him in a showup and you picked him up in a jail cell and you brought him down to be interrogated on November 24, when you were present during about 10 minutes, the latter part of this interrogation. Any other contacts with Oswald apart from these?

Mr. GRAVES. No; not that I had direct contact with him.

Mr. BELIN. What was your impression of him, as far as a person is concerned? His demeanor, his action, what kind of a person he was?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, but I would say he was an eight ball, in my vernacular.

Mr. BELIN. An eight ball in Army vernacular?

Mr. GRAVES. In any vernacular. We deal with a lot of people in our business, as well as we run into all types of people. I would say that he was egotistical.

Mr. BELIN. Let me stop right there. What gave you the impression he was egotistical?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't know. A person of his nature and cocky attitude, I don't know exactly how to explain it.

Mr. BELIN. Any specific thing that he did that gave you that impression, that you can remember at all, or not?

Mr. GRAVES. No; not anything in particular. Again, you just have to be around people. I don't know how to explain how people act to where it means anything, but I know what it means to me. I have been wrong a few times, but I have been right most of the time in summing up how people are, their actions, and so forth, and I would say this boy was a little far out in his belief about things in general.

And the way he conducted hisself. He is just plain egotistical, that is all. He don't care about you, me, or anybody else. He is caring about Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Can you think of any specific action or remark of his that might be an illustration of this?

Mr. GRAVES. I can't offhand, no.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you described him, you used the phrase "eight ball." You used "egotistical." Can you use any other adjective that you think would apply to him as you saw him?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I think that pretty well covers it, myself.

Mr. BELIN. Was he generally quiet, or was he soft spoken, or was he quick to make remarks?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, he was quick to answer and quick to make a remark when he was spoken to or asked a question.

Mr. BELIN. Is he what you would categorize as polite in his answers or not?

Mr. GRAVES. Not always polite. He was straightforward and to the point, and not necessarily polite.

Don't lead me off in a channel of psychiatry, because I am just telling you my own personal feeling about the man, and I could be wrong, as I said. So I am not an expert in that field. I am just telling you what I think about the man, and you take it for what it is worth. As I said, I could be wrong. I have been wrong before.

Mr. BELIN. Was he attentive as you saw him. I mean, did he----

Mr. GRAVES. If you mean--he is sharp when it comes to talking to the men. He listened to everything, everybody he saw, and he had an answer by the time you got through asking him. That would make him attentive.

Mr. BELIN. This could be helpful. In other words, if he were asked a question, did he pause before he answered the question, or did he just shoot an answer straight back?

Mr. GRAVES. Just answered right back.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any exceptions to this, that you could remember, or was this almost invariably the case?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, that was the case in everything that I heard him say. He didn't hunt for words, didn't hesitate at all.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Graves, is there anything else you can think of that might be relevant to this area of inquiry which involves anything to do with Lee Harvey Oswald or the investigation of the assassination, or the shooting of Officer Tippit, that we haven't discussed here?

Mr. GRAVES. At this point, I don't recall anything else.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your cooperation, doubly so, because we know you have been down here once before, and I want to tell you that you have a right, if you would like, to read the transcript of this deposition and sign it and make any corrections that you wish, or you can just have the reporter ship it to us directly in Washington, and waive the signing, whatever you want to do? Do you have any preference at all?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, if I don't sign it, it won't make any difference anyway.

Mr. BELIN. You can waive it if you would like to.

Mr. GRAVES. I will waive it. It don't make any difference to me.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. GRAVES. In the interest of time and everything.

Mr. BELIN. Thanks a lot.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES R. LEAVELLE

The testimony of James R. Leavelle was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general, was present.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Leavelle, will you stand and raise your right hand?

[Witness complying.]

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state you name, please?

Mr. LEAVELLE. James R. Leavelle.

Mr. BALL. And your address?

Mr. LEAVELLE. 7703 R-i-l-l-a [spelling], Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. And, what is your occupation?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Detective, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been on the department?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Fourteen years.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the homicide squad?

Mr. LEAVELLE. A little over 5 years.

Mr. BALL. Tell me about where you were born and your education; what you have done most of your life.

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I was born and raised mostly in Red River County in east Texas and went into service. After leaving the service, coming out of the service I worked for different companies here in Dallas until I joined the department in 1950.

Mr. BALL. The purpose of our inquiry here is to find out facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy. That's the general purpose of it.

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You took part in the investigation, did you not, as a member of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. LEAVELLE. A minor part you might say. I didn't have much to do with Oswald, myself.

Mr. BALL. Well, you talked to some of the witnesses, didn't you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I was.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I was working 8 to 4 I believe, that month and I had--when I heard of the assassination. I had just come into the homicide office with a Negro boy I had arrested for robbery.

Mr. BALL. Whereabouts did you go then after that?

Mr. LEAVELLE. We, along with Charlie Brown, went to the building, the Texas Book Depository, and talked with the inspector there. I asked him if the building had been secured and he said it was and Captain Fritz was in the building.

Mr. BALL. Was that Inspector Sawyer?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; he said they were sending all witnesses to the sheriff's office and I might go over and check and see what was needed, so I went to the sheriff's office and found them in a general uproar more or less. They had several witnesses around and they wanted to take affidavits from them; however, none of them had started. So, when I walked in, they knew I was a homicide man and would be indirectly responsible for some of the investigation, so I talked with Allen Sweatt, chief deputy, and started to set up the procedure for the taking of the affidavits from the witnesses when several of the--four, five or six of the burglary and theft detectives walked in and told me that they were sent down there to do whatever was needed to be done and asked me what was needed, so I told them to work with Mr. Sweatt and take those affidavits and they could do that as well as I and I would go back to the Depository and see what might further be needed over there. I went to the Depository and had been there just a short time talking to some of the officers on duty there. I don't remember who they were at this time and at that time I heard a radio broadcast of the shooting in Oak Cliff which involved Officer Tippit and I called my office and found that there was no one to answer the call in Oak Cliff and since everything was under control there, I felt like some of us should be in Oak Cliff, so I borrowed a car from Detective Red Edwards of burglary----

(At this point, Mr. Robert T. Davis enters.)

Mr. BALL. Go ahead, Mr. Leavelle.

Mr. LEAVELLE. I borrowed an automobile from Detective Red Edwards, A. L. Edwards, and proceeded to the Oak Cliff area. I went to the scene of the shooting. They had removed Tippit's body at that time and I talked with the sergeant and the officer.

Mr. BALL. What were their names?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I believe Sergeant Bud Owens was the sergeant there and one of the uniformed officers was--I may be in error on this, but I believe it was Poe.

Mr. BALL. J. M. Poe?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; P-o-e [spelling].

Mr. BALL. At that time someone told you some empty .38 caliber hulls had been picked up. Did Poe tell you that?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I believe he did.

Mr. BALL. Did he give you the hulls?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; he did not give them to me. I think my instructions to him were to turn them over to the crime lab.

Mr. BALL. Did he show them to you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I don't think so; he may have but I do not recall. He may have. He did say that there was an eyewitness to it but he didn't know her name at the time. So, while I was talking to him was when the call came out they seen the suspect go into the Texas Theatre, so I proceeded to the Texas Theatre, but due to the heavy traffic, I didn't get there until after the arrest was made and they had left, so I returned to the scene and talked with the officer some more and I believe that he also told me that a man in a carlot down there had seen Oswald running from the scene.

Mr. BALL. Who told you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Poe, I believe. Now, I could be in error on that but someone told me anyway, so----

Mr. BALL. You went back to the police station and took some affidavits from witnesses, didn't you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. That's right, I went on to the station at that time and took affidavits from--talked with some of the witnesses that they had brought in there because at the time I didn't realize there was any connection between Oswald and the shooting of Tippit or the one that they had arrested in the Texas Theatre for the killing of Tippit and the Presidential assassination. I thought it was two different things altogether. So, I proceeded back to the office to work on that end of it, checking with the captain, and they was tied up with the Presidential assassination, and not until we got there did I realize some few minutes later on, when talking to some of the people of the Texas Book Depository, did we realize Oswald could very well be the same one who assassinated the President.

Mr. BALL. Well, did Captain Fritz instruct you to go out and pick up the witness and come down to a showup, bring her down to a showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; this Helen Markham, the witness, was in such a state of shock she had been unable to view the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see her the first time?

Mr. LEAVELLE. She was in the emergency room, in the hospital emergency room, first aid room, whatever you call it in the basement of the city hall, and I went over and talked with her and kind of got her calmed down where she thought she could stand to view the lineup, and when she told me that she felt like she was able to stand it, why, I called the captain and told him that we were ready for the showup, at which time some of the other officers brought Oswald down. I took here into the showup room myself and stood with her while she viewed the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Were you and Helen Markham the only two in what you call the showup room?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No, Captain Fritz and Chief Curry was in there also and possibly one or two others; I do not recall.

Mr. BALL. How about your partner, C. W. Brown?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not know whether he was there or not.

Mr. BALL. Any other witnesses?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Now Mr. Graves may have been in there.

Mr. BALL. Were there any other witnesses in there?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No.

Mr. BALL. Who picked the men for the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not know.

Mr. BALL. Did you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had nothing to do with that.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who the men were in the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. That particular showup they had gotten two of the officers, I believe, that work in the vice squad.

Mr. BALL. I have the names of the people in the showup; No. 1 was Bill Perry; is he a Dallas Police Department officer?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. No. 3 R. L. Clark----

Mr. LEAVELLE. He is an officer also.

Mr. BALL. Vice squad?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Don Ables is a jail clerk?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who picked these men?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I do not know who decided that they be in the showup. Of course, I am sure whoever did was using them, thinking of the security angle of it more than anything else, rather than getting prisoners down there.

Mr. BALL. Is it unusual to use officers in the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; we don't normally do it.

Mr. BALL. You usually have other prisoners in the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, trustees serving time, or----

Mr. BALL. What is your memory as to how these men were dressed?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I think all of them had on just shirts and trousers, I believe. I don't think there was any coats involved in any of them.

Mr. BALL. Did any have ties?

Mr. LEAVELLE. None had ties or hats on.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted the showup questioning?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I probably asked the questions, yes.

Mr. BALL. What questions?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Normally, I would not have asked names in this case because for fear of her remembering the name, so, or might have heard the name, so, probably asked how old they were, what occupation, anything so they could speak and let me hear the sound of their voice.

Mr. BALL. Did any of them say they were police officers?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No, no; the officers gave some other occupation.

Mr. BALL. Now, what did Helen Markham say while she was in the showup room?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, she was very nervous and I do not recall what all she did say, but she was able to identify Oswald as the one.

Mr. BALL. What did she tell you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. She said he was the man that was at the scene she saw do the shooting over there in Oak Cliff.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a statement from her then?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I took one from her but I do not remember whether--just when I took it.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do after that showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I--Mr. Graves and I took Helen back home and after we dropped her off we stopped by this carlot, 501 East Jefferson, and talked with the manager or owner of that and found out that he was the one that had seen the man running. He had heard the shots and seen the man running, from the scene of the shooting and the colored porter there also had heard it, and they had gone to the scene and they said, each of them said, that they thought they might be able to identify the man that they saw running; they heard the shots and they ran outside and saw him running down the sidewalk across the street from the lot with the gun in his hand.

Mr. BALL. You also talked to Domingo Benavides?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. D-o-m-i-n-g-o B-e-n-a-v-i-d-e-s [spelling]. I would think it would be spelled differently.

Mr. LEAVELLE. He was supposed to be Mexican descent but that Benavides is actually an Italian name, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Well, did you talk to him also?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I talked with him but I do not believe we ever took an affidavit off him that I recall--may have.

Mr. BALL. Didn't he tell you that he picked up some empty hulls?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, he told me he picked them up and gave them to the officer. I remember the officer told me he had gotten the hulls from someone who gave them to him, and when I talked to Domingo, he said he was the one picked them up and give them to the officer.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring any of these men downtown?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask them----

Mr. LEAVELLE. I called later--Ted Callaway--bring the others down; however, I think the Negro porter there, whatever his name is, is the only one he brought.

Mr. BALL. You say you told him to bring the others down? Who did you tell to bring down?

Mr. LEAVELLE. The porter and this Domingo.

Mr. BALL. But he only brought----

Mr. LEAVELLE. Sam Guinyard.

Mr. BALL. Do you know why Domingo Benavides was never brought down for the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I think he said he never saw the man actually. I believe he said later on he did not see the man.

Mr. BALL. He testified here he saw the man running.

Mr. LEAVELLE. But he--either that or he told me he could not recognize him, one or the other.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a showup with Callaway and Guinyard?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, I do not recall the time but we did.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to see your notes here; would that refresh your memory? Here is a report that you made, also. [Papers to witness.]

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, at 6:30 p.m. would be right.

Mr. BALL. 6:30 p.m.?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who was in the audience side of the showup this time?

Mr. LEAVELLE. As far as I know there wasn't anyone other than Mr. Graves and myself, and I am not too sure he was there. I do not recall.

Mr. BALL. Your notes say that Brown and Dhority were with you. Is that right?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I do not remember; it could have been.

Mr. BALL. Who was with the witnesses?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Who was with the witnesses?

Mr. BALL. What officer was with the witnesses?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, we were with them.

Mr. BALL. Who talked to them?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Are you talking about the witnesses or the ones in the lineup?

Mr. BALL. No; I am talking about the witnesses.

Mr. LEAVELLE. Only two witnesses is Callaway and Guinyard and I talked with them.

Mr. BALL. You talked with them?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who were the men in the showup this time?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not remember.

Mr. BALL. These notes show that Billy Perry was No. 1; R. L. Clark, No. 2; and 4, Don Ables; and No. 2, Oswald.

Mr. LEAVELLE. I know they were on two different showups, so it is quite possible.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted the questions of the men in the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I would think I would have been--the same line.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what Ted Callaway said?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Not per se; I know they were able to identify Oswald.

Mr. BALL. What was the substance of what he said?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall.

Mr. BALL. You say "identify"; that doesn't mean much to me because I don't know what he identified him as.

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said he was the man; he identified him as the man he saw running from the direction where the shots came from over in the Oak Cliff area near his carlot.

Mr. BALL. What about Sam Guinyard?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Same thing, practically.

Mr. BALL. Did you take statements from them?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I believe I took affidavits from them, according to my notes, there while we were waiting for them to come down.

Mr. BALL. Did you also show them a jacket?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I took them to the fourth floor and asked them to look at a jacket which----

Mr. BALL. I show you Commission Exhibit 162. Does that look anything like the jacket?

Mr. LEAVELLE. It looks like the jacket that I showed them; yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what Callaway said when he saw the jacket?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said this was definitely the jacket or one exactly like it.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what Guinyard said?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said it was also the same type jacket.

Mr. BALL. Now then, did you do anything else that day on this investigation?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall other than possibly answer the telephone in the office.

Mr. BALL. You went to work at what time Saturday morning, November 23, 1963?

Mr. LEAVELLE. It would be around 8 o'clock, I imagine.

Mr. BALL. And did you take some statements that day?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Chances are I may have, I do not remember.

Mr. BALL. Here is----

Mr. LEAVELLE. It says took one affidavit from R. S. Truly, supervisor of Texas School Book and the other of employee, Mrs. R. A. Reid.

Mr. BALL. You are refreshing your memory from a report that you made, is that correct?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you attend another showup that day?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; we held another showup that day which involved a cabdriver----

Mr. BALL. What's his name?

Mr. LEAVELLE. We later found out he was near the scene of the shooting and saw the shooting, also, W. W. Scoggins. We held a showup for him at 2:15 p.m.

Mr. BALL. Was anyone else with him at that time?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; there was another man who was another cabdriver, name of William Wayne Whaley [spelling].

Mr. BALL. Had you talked to him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I had not talked to Whaley; no.

Mr. BALL. What officer talked to Whaley?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick up Whaley in the squadcar?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick up Scoggins in the squadcar?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No.

Mr. BALL. Where did you first see Whaley and Scoggins?

Mr. LEAVELLE. They came to the office, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down with them to the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I am sure that I did. I do not recall but I am sure I must have.

Mr. BALL. Here's some other notes that you might look at to refresh your memory [notes to witness].

Mr. LEAVELLE. From these notes here it indicates I was there along with them at that time.

Mr. BALL. What is your memory? Is your memory different from the notes?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not remember who else was there, if anyone was.

Mr. BALL. You know that you were there with Scoggins and Whaley?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the men in the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall who was in there. I know it says who was here but I could not tell you.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick those men?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; not at anytime did I have anything to do with picking the men in any of them.

Mr. BALL. This was your third showup in the course of your investigation of the murder of Tippit and the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; the third and the only three I had anything to do with.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted this showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I would have handled the speech of that also; asking them to say a few words.

Mr. BALL. How were these men dressed?

Mr. LEAVELLE. That I do not recall either.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether they had coats on?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I know in all cases we usually try to have them dressed as alike as possible, the same as each other.

Mr. BALL. What is your memory of this incident? Were they dressed anywhere near similar?

Mr. LEAVELLE. In one instance--now, I am not positive which one it was, Oswald was in a T-shirt, having the other shirt removed upstairs where they were going to send it to the FBI laboratory for tests, and the rest of them, I believe, had on shirts. He was the only one that had on a T-shirt and I recall--I am not sure but I think it was the last one where he was raising cain about being up there with a T-shirt and wouldn't be quiet.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said it wasn't fair, him being showed up in a T-shirt and being photographed in a T-shirt and all that. I don't know what he didn't say; he went on all the time.

Mr. BALL. Did Whaley say anything to you personally?

Mr. LEAVELLE. To me personally?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, of course. I asked him if he--if the man that he remembered or saw there, whatever he was identifying him for there was up there and he said "Yes, the man in the T-shirt." Whether he was doing all the talking or not wouldn't make any difference, he still knew him.

Mr. BALL. What did Scoggins say?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said practically the same thing--the man in the T-shirt was the--or the No. 3 man was the man he had saw do the shooting.

Mr. BALL. Who said that?

Mr. LEAVELLE. That would have been Scoggins.

Mr. BALL. Did Whaley say--tell you whether or not he had ever seen this man before?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He was supposed to have seen him I believe, but I do not recall what the circumstances were under which he saw him right offhand.

Mr. BALL. Where Scoggins saw him you remember, in other words, though?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; in other words, he was the one who said he was sitting there eating a sack of lunch parked near the corner when the shooting occurred.

Mr. BALL. Now, on November 24, on Sunday morning, did you return to work about the same time, 8 o'clock, or so?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Little before 10, I believe, or something.

Mr. BALL. And, were you ordered by Captain Fritz to get Oswald?