Chapter XXVII: Part 27

Mr. BALL. Now, this shows the words A. J. Hidell, P.0. Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. This appears on this invoice A-5371, does it not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. It is described as an S. & W. .38 special, 2-inch Commando. What is the meaning of that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Two inch is the barrel length. Commando is a description which we more or less gave because we have another 2-inch gun at a higher price and, in order that the order filler is able to identify between the two types, we have this type described as Commando.

Mr. BALL. Now, the No. 510210. What is the significance of that number?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It is the serial number of the gun in question.

Mr. BALL. And it shows deposit, $10. Balance c.o.d., $19.95. What is the significance of that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. We received, together with the order, the amount of $10 in cash. Since the sales price is $29.95, the merchandise was shipped with a c.o.d. for the balance of $19.95.

Mr. BALL. Does this invoice show the date it was shipped?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What was that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. March 20.

Mr. BALL. 1963?

Mr. MICHAELIS. 1963.

Mr. BALL. Does it also show which one of your companies shipped it?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The Seaport Traders, Inc.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have this document marked, Invoice No. A-5371, as the Exhibit No. 2 to the deposition of Mr. Michaelis.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 2 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. Now I also show you a white copy of invoice No. A-5371 which has been marked on the face as DL-27. Can you tell me what that document is?

Mr. MICHAELIS. This document is the first copy of the invoice No. 5371 which is kept in the office as permanent record and is filed in the numerical order.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what your business custom was in March of 1963 with reference to the preparing of invoices, original invoice and copies, and shipping an item which had been ordered by mail?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The order received by mail is written up and invoiced in quadruplicate on a snap-out form. The first white copy remains in the office and is filed on a numerical order.

The second copy is used as a packing slip whereby the upper part of the invoice is torn off and used as a shipping label and the lower part used as a packing slip.

The third copy is filed permanently in the office under the name of the respective customer after the order has been shipped.

The fourth copy is the acknowledgment of the order copy and lists on the back side a statement which has to be signed by the respective customer.

Mr. BALL. What statement?

Mr. MICHAELIS. A statement to the effect, I believe that it said that the buyer states that he is a citizen of the United States, and that he has never been convicted in any court of the United States, territories, possessions, et cetera. Do you want me----

Mr. BALL. Well, now, this fourth copy that has on the back this statement by the customer, is that mailed to the customer?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It is mailed to the customer, but not in this particular case. Indicated on the invoice are three X's, which indicates that we have already a statement to this effect on file because this particular mail order coupon has already the statement, and the name of the witness.

Mr. BALL. Now, the particular mail-order coupon that you refer to is Commission No. 135, and it has on it the statement required together with the witness?

Mr. MICHAELIS. With the witness; that's right.

Mr. BALL. And that witness' name is what?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, I identify it as D-r-i-t-t-a-l.

Mr. BALL. That's right. You are right.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then in this instance the fourth copy did not go to the purchaser?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Did not go to the purchaser; that is correct.

Mr. BALL. And the first copy is in white and is the one which you have identified?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And we will mark that as Exhibit 3.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 3 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. The second copy is in red, is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The second copy is in yellow.

Mr. BALL. Yellow. That is the packing slip copy?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. The third copy is in red?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. And that is the one you have identified as Exhibit 2, is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. BALL. And in this instance the fourth copy was not used, is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Exhibits 2 and 3 were also found as a part of your original records when you investigated, or looked through your records at the request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on November 30, 1963. Is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. I will show you another document here which is a slip of red paper marked "Railway Express Agency" which has been heretofore identified with an FBI Exhibit No. DL-29. What is that document?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Just a minute. I have to get the original. Now, this exhibit number----

Mr. BALL. It is given a No. DL-29. Will you describe it, please?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; that is a copy of the receipt which we got from the Railway Express Agency showing that on March 20, 1963, one carton with a pistol was shipped to A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. It shows, furthermore, that Railway Express is instructed to collect a c.o.d. fee of $19.95. And it shows furthermore the number of the original receipt, which is 70638.

Mr. BALL. Number of original receipt? Which receipt?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Of the Railway Express receipt.

Mr. BALL. Is this it here?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Original receipt, Railway Express receipt, is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Does it identify the invoice in any way?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No.

Mr. BALL. Except by name, is that right?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Except by name.

Mr. BALL. And does it describe the article shipped?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Only in broad terms.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. MICHAELIS. One carton consisting of a pistol.

Mr. BALL. One carton, pistol. I see. I would like to have this marked as Exhibit 4, being the pink copy of a Railway Express receipt.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 4 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. Now, a document identified as No. DL-30 by the Bureau of Investigation, receipt No. 70638. Will you describe that for me, please?

Mr. MICHAELIS. This document is required in addition by the Railway Express Agency for all c.o.d. shipments, and indicates again the name of the consignee, his address, and lists our invoice number which is, in this case, No. 5371. It directs the Railway Express Agency to remit the amount to be collected to Seaport Traders, Inc. The amount of the c.o.d. is $19.95, and the service charge has to be collected from the consignee.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have that marked as Exhibit 5.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 5 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. Now, Exhibit 4 has been described as a Railway Express Agency receipt. Exhibit 5, which is an additional document entitled "A brief of information for c.o.d. shipment, Railway Express Agency," those were in your files when you searched for information regarding the sale of this pistol as of November 30, 1963. Is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything in your files which shows that the Railway Express did remit to you the $19.95?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The fact that the exhibit number--may I see this green one?

Mr. BALL. Five.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Was attached to the red copy of the invoice.

Mr. BALL. Red copy of the invoice being----

Mr. MICHAELIS. No; was attached to the red copy of the invoice, exhibit number----

Mr. BALL. Two.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Indicates that the money was received.

Mr. BALL. I see. Now, these documents were delivered to the Federal Bureau of Investigation by you, were they not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Through Mr. Wood; yes.

Mr. BALL. And these documents, Exhibits 2 to 5, inclusive, are original documents, are they not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Exhibit 1 being a photostat of the page in your looseleaf notebook?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Which carries the record of the sale, record of the item?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. And does anybody in your organization that you know of have any personal knowledge of packing this particular gun and shipping it?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I doubt very much that the packer would remember this particular parcel.

Mr. BALL. About how many guns of this type do you sell and ship out of here in a year?

Mr. MICHAELIS. In 1 year?

Mr. BALL. Yes; just a general estimate.

Mr. MICHAELIS. For Seaport Traders?

Mr. ROSE. That type of gun--we sell more .22's.

Mr. BALL. Well, about how many?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Seaport Traders, I would say that--this is a rough guess, Mr. Ball. This particular type, that Seaport Traders might have sold maybe 120 in a year; 120, 150 in a year.

Mr. BALL. Would that be sold through mail order, or both mail order----

Mr. MICHAELIS. I am talking about particularly mail-order business from Seaport Traders.

Mr. BALL. 120 or 125?

Mr. MICHAELIS. 120, 150, of this particular type of gun.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything else that you know about this particular transaction that you would like to tell me?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No, sir; I believe I answered all the questions of this transaction.

AFFIDAVIT OF J. C. CASON

The following affidavit was executed by J. C. Cason on May 22, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, _County of Dallas, ss_:

I, J. C. Cason, President and Treasurer, of the Texas School Book Depository declare the following statements:

The Texas School Book Depository was organized in 1908 as a sole proprietorship and continued in this manner until 1927 when it was incorporated under the laws of the State of Texas.

The Corporation's offices are located at Elm and Houston Streets, Dallas, Texas, and its warehouse and storage plant are located at 1917 North Houston Street, Dallas, Texas. It neither owns nor operated any other buildings in Dallas or in any other city.

The present officers are: J. C. Cason, President and Treasurer; and O. V. Campbell, Vice President and Secretary. The Directors are: J. C. Cason, O. V. Campbell and R. S. Truly. The Shareholders of all outstanding Capital Stock are J. C. Cason and O. V. Campbell.

The Corporation acts as an independent agency for a group of thirty-three publishers to warehouse and distribute textbooks to the various schools in the states of Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, and New Mexico. It has no other business activity other than that afore mentioned. It is not connected in any way with any state or municipal government and operates solely as a private Corporation with a Charter from the State of Texas.

Signed the 22d day of May 1964.

(S) J. C. Cason,
J. C. CASON.

AFFIDAVIT OF C. N. DHORITY

The following affidavit was executed by C. N. Dhority on May 12, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, _County of Dallas, ss:_

Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Detective C. N. Dhority, Dallas Police Department, who after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

The night of November 22, 1963 Captain J. W. Fritz gave me three 6.5 rifle hulls and told me to give them to Lt. J. C. Day in the Crime Lab. Captain J. W. Fritz told me to have Lt. Day to dust them for prints and return one of the 6.5 hulls to him. I took these three 6.5 rifle hulls to Lt. Day and gave them to him in an envelope which had been previously marked by Det. R. M. Sims. Lt. Day dusted the shells for prints and gave me one back. I returned this 6.5 shell back to Captain J. W. Fritz.

Signed this 12th day of May 1964.

(S) C. N. Dhority,
C. N. DHORITY.

TESTIMONY OF ROY S. TRULY

The testimony of Roy S. Truly was taken at 2:30 p.m., on May 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Now, Mr. Truly, this is a continuation of your deposition. I took the last one and you have been sworn and I don't know that it is exactly necessary for you to take the oath again, since this is a continuation of the deposition. I took the last one, didn't I?

Mr. TRULY. Oh, no; I gave a statement that was under oath.

Mr. BALL. Oh, no; this is a deposition. You appeared before the Commission--that's right.

Mr. TRULY. Mr. Belin took my sworn deposition also about a week before I went up there when you both were in Dallas and he also took a recorded deposition.

Mr. BALL. Yes; that was just an investigation, an inquiry. We didn't record that. You weren't under oath then. Will you stand up and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. TRULY. I do.

Mr. BALL. Now, will you state your name, please?

Mr. TRULY. Roy S. Truly.

Mr. BALL. And you are superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. TRULY. That's correct.

Mr. BALL. Is that your title?

Mr. TRULY. And a director of the Depository.

Mr. BALL. You have been employed by the Depository for a number of years?

Mr. TRULY. Since 1934; since 1934.

Mr. BALL. You testified before the Commission in Washington, you say, on the 24th of March 1964; did you not?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Your testimony is filed in volume 28, I believe, of the Commission here. There are certain matters which have come to the attention of the Commission since then that I would like to inquire about, and that's the reason we are taking your deposition, which will be in addition to the testimony you have already given.

Do you recall anytime that you saw any guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; I saw two guns on November 20.

Mr. BALL. Whose guns were they?

Mr. TRULY. They belonged to Mr. Warren Caster.

Mr. BALL. Now, before inquiring into the circumstances of seeing two guns that belonged to Mr. Warren Caster on November 20, 1963, I'll ask you whether or not you ever at anytime before that time or after that time saw guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. TRULY. Never before.

Mr. BALL. Never before, and between that date Wednesday, November 20, and Friday, November 22, did you ever see any guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. TRULY. I did see guns in there after the assassination.

Mr. BALL. That is, you saw guns of police officers?

Mr. TRULY. Of the police officers.

Mr. BALL. Carried by police officers?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; and I saw a rifle being carried from the building.

Mr. BALL. In other words, a rifle was found on the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You saw that in place on the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. No; I did not.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mr. TRULY. I only saw the rifle as they were going out the front door.

Mr. BALL. Before the assassination, was there any other occasion besides the one we are inquiring about, when you saw guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. TRULY. Never.

Mr. BALL. On November 20, 1963, you saw two guns owned by Mr. Warren Caster, can you tell me where and when and the circumstances under which you saw these guns?

Mr. TRULY. It was during the lunch period or right at the end of the lunch period on November 20. Mr. Caster came in the door from the first floor and spoke to me and showed me two rifles that he had just purchased. I looked at these and picked up the larger one of the two and examined it and handed it back to Mr. Caster, with the remark that it was really a handsome rifle or words to that effect, at which time Mr. Caster explained to me that he had bought himself a rifle to go deer hunting with, and he hadn't had one and he had been intending to buy one for a long time, and that he had also bought a .22 rifle for his boy.

Mr. BALL. Did you handle the .22 rifle?

Mr. TRULY. Not that I recall.

Mr. BALL. You did see it, though?

Mr. TRULY. I did see it.

Mr. BALL. Was it out of the carton?

Mr. TRULY. The carton was open, I believe, and I saw it. I don't recall picking it up or taking it out of the carton, but I could see it lying in the bottom part of the carton.

Mr. BALL. And you did take the large rifle out?

Mr. TRULY. And raised it to my shoulder and go through the motion of sighting it, but not cocking it--just looking at it.

Mr. BALL. Who else was there besides you and Mr. Caster?

Mr. TRULY. Well, the only person I can recall being there was Mr. Shelley.

Mr. BALL. And what is his position with the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. TRULY. He is manager of the miscellaneous department.

Mr. BALL. Was this in the open warehouse?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; right at the front. Mr. Caster had placed the cartons on the counter near the front door and that's where the rifles were when I saw them, and I picked one up out of the cartons.

Mr. BALL. And were they employees of the Texas School Book Depository company on the first floor at that time?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; they were--as I recall the time--that the boys had probably gone back to work and could have been walking around before they went in the shipping department.

Mr. BALL. That would have been about what time of the day?

Mr. TRULY. I'd say around 1 o'clock--very close to it. It could have been a little after or a little before. The boys go back to lunch at 12:45, so there I'm not too clear.

Mr. BALL. What happened to these two rifles, Mr. Truly, that Mr. Caster got during the noon hour?

Mr. TRULY. They were placed back in the carton and Mr. Caster carried them out of the lobby door with him. That's the last I saw them.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see them again?

Mr. TRULY. Never--never.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see from that day until Friday, November 22, did you ever see those guns in the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I never did.

Mr. BALL. Now, you recall that in your testimony before the Commission you told them that at some time after the shooting, you advised Captain Fritz of the name of Lee Oswald and his address in Irving?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. And in order to place the time of it, was it before or after the rifle had been found on the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. I wouldn't know. I think it must have been around the time the rifle was found, because I was not on the sixth floor at that time, but when I told--let's go back a few minutes--pardon me--I told Chief Lumpkin a good many minutes after we came down from the roof and he went ahead and gave some orders to two or three policemen surrounding him and then said, "Let's go up and tell Captain Fritz."

Mr. BALL. Now, what did you tell Chief Lumpkin when you came down from the roof of the building?

Mr. TRULY. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin that, "We have a man here that's missing." I said, "It may not mean anything, but he isn't here." I first called down to the other warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could get--quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so I could be more accurate than I would be.

Mr. BALL. Was he the only man missing?

Mr. TRULY. The only one I noticed at that time. Now, I think there was one or two more, possibly Charles Givens, but I had seen him out in front walking up the street just before the firing of the gun.

Mr. BALL. But walking which way?

Mr. TRULY. The last time I saw him, he was walking across Houston Street, east on Elm.

Mr. BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards?

Mr. TRULY. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn't with them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short time before in the building, I noticed he wasn't there.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean "a short time before"?

Mr. TRULY. I would say 10 or 12 minutes.

Mr. BALL. You mean that's when you saw him in the lunchroom?

Mr. TRULY. In the lunchroom.

Mr. BALL. And you noticed he wasn't over there?

Mr. TRULY. Well, I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him around and he said No.

Mr. BALL. Now, you told Chief Lumpkin that there was a man missing?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; and he said, "Let's go tell Captain Fritz." Well, I didn't know where Captain Fritz was.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you tell Chief Lumpkin the man was missing before or after you called to the warehouse and got the name?

Mr. TRULY. No, I called the warehouse beforehand.

Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to any police officer before you called the warehouse and got the address?

Mr. TRULY. Not that I remember.

Mr. BALL. You did that on your own without instructions?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. So, when you talked to Chief Lumpkin, you at that time had in your possession there the address of Lee Oswald in Irving?

Mr. TRULY. That's right, I had scribbled it down on a piece of map or something so I would remember it.

Mr. BALL. That is the address that he had put on his application form for employment?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And did you know of any other address?

Mr. TRULY. I didn't know of any other address at all.

Mr. BALL. Of Lee Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. I supposed that's where he was living.

Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the rifle.

Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time?

Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle.

Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the building?

Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building.

Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was found?

Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your talk with Fritz?

Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. While you were on the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. While I was on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you went with Chief Lumpkin to the sixth floor, didn't you?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what was your purpose of going there?

Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his Irving address, at the suggestion of Chief Lumpkin, who accompanied me.

Mr. BALL. Did you give Captain Fritz this name and address?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had been found?

Mr. TRULY. I don't remember who I learned this from----

Mr. BALL. I didn't ask you that, I'm talking about time only.

Mr. TRULY. That was while I was on the sixth floor is when I learned the rifle was found, but I did not see it.

Mr. BALL. All right. Now, was it before or after you told Captain Fritz the name and address of Lee Oswald, that you learned that the rifle was found?

Mr. TRULY. I can't remember, I believe it was afterwards.

Mr. BALL. You are sure it was after you told Captain Fritz--after what, you tell me?

Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth floor, Captain Fritz was standing in the area where I later learned they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other men--officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I repeated the words to Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing--I told him what his name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left the sixth floor shortly.

While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and sometime--someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know who it was.

Mr. BALL. About that time?

Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I don't recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no occasion to go back up there.

Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address?

Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes.

Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?

Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?

Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock.

Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place.

Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there.

Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after 1 o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there?

Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that?

Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1.

Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1?

Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory.

Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed he wasn't there?

Mr. TRULY. I don't think so--I don't feel like at was. It could have possibly been so.

Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate?

Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination.

Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes.

Mr. BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the name and address?

Mr. TRULY. I think it was immediately.

Mr. BALL. Immediately?

Mr. TRULY. Immediately, after I called to the warehouse and got his name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told Captain Fritz at that time.

Mr. BALL. Chief Lumpkin?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. BALL. Yes; Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. TRULY. And I remember Chief Lumpkin talking to two or three officers and I stepped back and he went ahead and told them a few things--it could have been 2 or 3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Not over that?

Mr. TRULY. I don't believe so, and then he came to me and said, "All right, Mr. Truly, let's go up and see Captain Fritz and tell him this."

Mr. BALL. Then, if the gun wasn't found until after 1:10, you think it might have been as late as 1:05 or so before you discovered that Oswald wasn't there?

Mr. TRULY. It could be--it could have been.

Mr. BALL. You have no exact memory as to the time you discovered he was not there?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I didn't believe after thinking things over--it was over in 15 or 20 minutes after the shots were fired, but after retracing my trip to the roof and the time delay and back, I would have to say that it was farther along in the day than I had believed, so it could have been 1 or 1:05 or something like that.

Mr. BALL. Before you discovered Oswald wasn't there?

Mr. TRULY. That's right, and at such time that you have information of the officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in and around the wrapping tables, it was at such time that I noticed that this boy wasn't among the other workers.

Mr. BALL. You remember you had seen him on the second floor, didn't you?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. That's when you were with Officer Baker?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Now, you heard that Tippit had been shot, didn't you?

Mr. TRULY. Not after--until after I had told Chief Lumpkin and Captain Fritz and come back down to the first floor, then I learned that he had been shot. The first I learned of it--there was a young officer ran in the front door and told another officer, possibly a lieutenant, that there was an officer shot in Oak Cliff and that was all I knew at that time. I did not know that they had captured Oswald then. Later on a newspaper reporter told me.

Mr. BALL. Now, you say that you knew that Givens was not there afterwards?

Mr. TRULY. I knew he wasn't there at the time of the shooting because I had seen him walk across the street--up the street.

Mr. BALL. Toward what?

Mr. TRULY. Up Elm Street across Houston.

Mr. BALL. Toward Main--down toward Main?

Mr. TRULY. I saw him walking on the north side of Elm, crossing Houston--on the north side of Elm crossing Houston. However, at that time I saw two other boys with him and I later learned, I believe, that it was James Jarman and possibly Harold Norman--there were two or three--they were all standing in the crowd close to myself and they started across Houston Street up Elm. I didn't see them turn over to the right across Elm.

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--you saw Norman and Jarman with Givens in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building first, didn't you?

Mr. TRULY. Right; sometime earlier--a good deal--a little while before the shooting--I believe they were the three.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Jarman and Norman going across Elm?

Mr. TRULY. I'm pretty sure there was the three of them.

Mr. BALL. And Jarman and Norman say that they went back into the building?

Mr. TRULY. Well, apparently they did, but I saw them out there--I noticed them there on the corner and starting across the street, but whether they completed it--I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Where is the last place you saw Givens?

Mr. TRULY. The last place I remember seeing Givens was in the middle of the crossing, in the middle of Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. Walking in which direction?

Mr. TRULY. Walking east.

Mr. BALL. Walking east on the north side of Elm?

Mr. TRULY. North side of Elm--he had not completely crossed the street--Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. Now, did Givens come back to the building later?

Mr. TRULY. I didn't see him--later on he did.

Mr. BALL. When--how much later?

Mr. TRULY. Much later--I suppose--I don't know his actions during that day.

Mr. BALL. Did he come back to the building?

Mr. TRULY. No.

Mr. BALL. After the shooting?

Mr. TRULY. I can't say--I think he came back to the front of the building--I can't answer for sure whether he came in the building--I know he was at the police station later on.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all right now.

(The deposition of the deponent Truly was adjourned from Room 301 Federal Building, Dallas, Tex., and continued at the office of the deponent Truly in the Texas School Book Depository Building, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex., as follows:)

Mr. BALL. Mr. Truly, when you came into the building with Officer Baker you tried to look up the elevator shaft, didn't you?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; I sure did.

Mr. BALL. And where did you see the elevators?

Mr. TRULY. On the fifth floor--both of them on the same floor.

Mr. BALL. They were both up on the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You are sure of that?

Mr. TRULY. I am sure, because their bottoms were level.

Mr. BALL. When you went up to the floor, was there an elevator on any of the floors?

Mr. TRULY. When I reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was there, but west one was not.

Mr. BALL. Do you know where it was?

Mr. TRULY. No; I don't. I didn't look, I just remember it wasn't upstairs, so it was down below me somewhere.

Mr. BALL. You took the east elevator?

Mr. TRULY. I took the east elevator load to the seventh floor.

Mr. BALL. That's all.

Mr. TRULY. Fine.

TESTIMONY OF WARREN CASTER

The testimony of Warren Caster was taken at 2 p.m., on May 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Caster, would you please stand up and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CASTER. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your full name, please?

Mr. CASTER. Warren Caster.

Mr. BALL. And where do you live?

Mr. CASTER. 3338 Merrell.

Mr. BALL. What is your business?

Mr. CASTER. Textbook publishing.

Mr. BALL. Are you with some company?

Mr. CASTER. Yes; I am assistant manager for Southwestern Publishing Co. with offices at 411 Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. You have offices in the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. CASTER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You rent those offices from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. CASTER. The offices are furnished in connection with our work with the Depository.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you were raised and educated?

Mr. CASTER. Yes; I was born in New Mexico, educated in New Mexico, received my college degrees at New Mexico Highlands University at Las Vegas, N. Mex. I taught school in New Mexico from 1939 until I started to work with Southwestern Publishing Co. in 1952. There was a period of about 2 years that I spent in the U.S. Navy.

Mr. BALL. And have you had your offices since 1952 in the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. CASTER. The offices have been in the Texas School Book Depository Building, but not in this particular building here. We have occupied three places since I have been with the Southwestern Publishing Co.

Mr. BALL. Your office is on which floor?

Mr. CASTER. Second floor.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever bring any guns into the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. CASTER. I believe it was on Wednesday, November 20, during the noon hour.

Mr. BALL. Whose guns were they?

Mr. CASTER. They were my guns.

Mr. BALL. And what kind of guns were they?

Mr. CASTER. One gun was a Remington, single-shot, .22 rifle, and the other was a .30-06 sporterized Mauser.

Mr. BALL. Who owned them?

Mr. CASTER. I had just purchased them during the noon hour that day.

Mr. BALL. Well, tell us about it--what were the circumstances of the purchase?

Mr. CASTER. Well, I left the Depository during the noon hour and had lunch and, while out for the lunch hour, I stopped by Sanger-Harris sporting goods department to look for a rifle for my son's birthday--I beg your pardon, Christmas present--son's Christmas present, and while I was there I purchased the single-shot .22--single shot--and at the same time was looking at some deer rifles. I had, oh, for several years been thinking about buying a deer rifle and they happened to have one that I liked and I purchased the .30-06 while I was there.

Mr. BALL. And did they box them up?

Mr. CASTER. They were in cartons; yes.

Mr. BALL. And then you went back to work, I guess?

Mr. CASTER. Yes; I picked both rifles up in cartons just like they were, this was during the noon hour, and as I entered the Texas School Book Depository Building on my way up to the buying office, I stopped by Mr. Truly's office, and while I was there we examined the two rifles that I had purchased.

Mr. BALL. Did you take them out of the carton?

Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Who was there besides you and Mr. Truly?

Mr. CASTER. Well, I'm not really sure who was there. I think you were there, Bill, and Mr. Shelley was there--and Mr. Roy Truly. The only people that I know about, in any event, were there; there were workers there at the time, but I'm not quite sure how many. I couldn't even tell you their names. I don't know the Texas School Book Depository workers there in the shipping department.

Mr. BALL. In that office, though, Truly's office, how many were there?

Mr. CASTER. We weren't in Mr. Truly's immediate office, we were just there over the counter.

Mr. BALL. In the warehouse?

Mr. CASTER. We were there in the hall--just right there over the counter in front of the warehouse; that's right.

Mr. BALL. And did you take the guns out of the carton?

Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did. They were removed from the carton.

Mr. BALL. Did you handle them?

Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody else handle the guns?

Mr. CASTER. Mr. Truly handled them and I'm not sure whether Mr. Shelley had the guns in his hands or not; I'm not positive.

Mr. BALL. How long a time were you there with the guns, and by time, just estimate it.

Mr. CASTER. Well, it couldn't have been more than 10 minutes.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the guns after that?

Mr. CASTER. I put them back in the carton and carried them up to my office.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do with them after that?

Mr. CASTER. I left at the end of the working day, oh, around 4 o'clock and took the guns in the cartons and carried them and put them in my car and carried them home.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever have them back in the Texas School Book Depository Building thereafter?

Mr. CASTER. They have never been back to the Texas School Book Depository Building since then.

Mr. BALL. Where were those guns on November 22, 1963?

Mr. CASTER. The guns were in my home, 3338 Merrell Road.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. This will be written up and you will be asked to come in and it will be submitted to you for signature and you can correct it if you wish.

Mr. CASTER. That's all right.

Mr. BALL. Any corrections you make, make them in pen and ink and initial it and sign it. I want to thank you very much for giving this testimony.

Mr. CASTER. I thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF EDDIE PIPER

The testimony of Eddie Piper was taken at 4 p.m., on May 14, 1964, at the Texas School Book Depository Building, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. You understand since this is a continuation of your deposition you are under oath still?

Mr. PIPER. Thank you; I appreciate it.

Mr. BALL. Your deposition has been taken?

Mr. PIPER. Yes; that's right.

Mr. BALL. I'm going to just ask you a few questions.

Mr. PIPER. Sure, that's all right.

Mr. BALL. You told us that after the shooting you came out onto the floor?

Mr. PIPER. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And the first people that you saw on the floor after the shooting was who?

Mr. PIPER. Mr. Truly and some fellow--I really don't know who it was; like I say, it was some fellow that was with Mr. Truly.

Mr. BALL. Some fellow; how was he dressed?

Mr. PIPER. Oh, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Was he an officer?

Mr. PIPER. Yes; I believe he was an officer.

Mr. BALL. A police officer?

Mr. PIPER. Yes; a police officer.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a white helmet on?

Mr. PIPER. No; I don't think so. I didn't pay any attention to it. I was already excited over the shooting or something when he came running into the building.

Mr. BALL. And what did Truly and this--some fellow do?

Mr. PIPER. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up--on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out.

Mr. BALL. They were the first ones to go up the steps?

Mr. PIPER. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Had anybody come down the steps before they went up the steps?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. They weren't the first ones to come down?

Mr. PIPER. Yes; and when the elevators come down--I really don't know who brought the elevators down, but I know nobody ever come down the steps.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vicki Adams come down the steps?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I don't know about that, if she said she did, it was after I got over here and walked over to the back door.

Mr. BALL. Did Vicki Adams come down before Truly and the man went up the steps?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir, no, sir; she didn't do it.

Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the shooting miss Lee Oswald--did you notice he wasn't around?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't notice it until the lineup. You know, I just figured all the people was there.

Mr. BALL. You did notice it at the lineup, did you?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Tell us about that.

Mr. PIPER. I did notice it in the lineup.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by the lineup?

Mr. PIPER. I mean, when they lined us all up and told us to give our name and address and just to go home.

Mr. BALL. You say "they"; who do you mean?

Mr. PIPER. The detective--whoever it was.

Mr. BALL. The police?

Mr. PIPER. Yes; they had the building all surrounded. They went to locking the doors back and front and told us to all come up and then go home, and I told him, I says, "I've got to go down in the basement and get my clothes," and he said, "You can go down and get your clothes and come on back up here, but give me your identification and your name and tell us where you are staying," and everybody heard me say that, I guess, and he let us out of the building, one by one, and I went on out the front door.

Mr. BALL. Did you say something to anybody about not seeing Oswald there?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't say it, but I just saw he wasn't in the lineup--I didn't tell anyone because I didn't see him.

Mr. BALL. Just tell us what did you notice?

Mr. PIPER. I noticed he was not in the lineup.

Mr. BALL. You noticed that he was not in the lineup?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. But you didn't mention it to anybody?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't mention it but I knows he wasn't in the lineup, and Charles--I don't know whether he was, but he went out for lunch.

Mr. BALL. Was Charles Givens there?

Mr. PIPER. I couldn't remember seeing him. He went out for lunch and I don't remember whether he come out from the building again or not because I was getting dressed to get out of there myself.

Mr. BALL. That's all.

Mr. PIPER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM H. SHELLEY

The testimony of William H. Shelley was taken at 3 p.m., on May 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Shelley, you have been sworn and this will be a continuation of your deposition. You are still under oath, you understand that?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing a couple of guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 20th of November 1963?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. SHELLEY. Just outside Mr. Truly's office on the will-call counter.

Mr. BALL. And how did they get there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Mr. Warren Caster had just purchased them and brought them in and stopped by to see us.

Mr. BALL. Did you handle the guns?

Mr. SHELLEY. I held the .22.

Mr. BALL. And was there another make of gun too--there was, wasn't there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; I believe there was a .30-06 Mauser that had been converted. It was a foreign make converted to a .30-06

Mr. BALL. Did you handle that?

Mr. SHELLEY. No.

Mr. BALL. What happened to the guns?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, we looked them over, like you do any new toy, and he puts them back in the box and goes out of the door.

Mr. BALL. And did you ever see them again?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen any guns in that building before that date?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see any guns in that building between that date and the time the President was shot?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?

Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?

Mr. SHELLEY. At the police station when they brought him in.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him in the building at anytime after 12?

Mr. SHELLEY. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell anybody to go home?

Mr. SHELLEY. No.

Mr. BALL. You didn't tell anybody to leave the building at all?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you recall going up to the sixth floor after the shooting, do you?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you go over to the southeast corner of the building where there was a window open?

Mr. SHELLEY. Not all the way; they had it blocked off.

Mr. BALL. Did you at a later time go over there?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; not for several days afterwards.

Mr. BALL. Did you several days afterward go over there?

Mr. SHELLEY. After they released us to go back to work in the corner. We kept out for several days.

Mr. BALL. When you went back there, were there two Rolling Readers on top of a larger box?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; those were carried in by the local authorities. The boxes--the Rolling Readers were there.

Mr. BALL. They were?

Mr. SHELLEY. But the boxes that they were originally packed in were gone--they had been carried up to the police station.

Mr. BALL. You have seen pictures of the window, haven't you?

Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. With the larger box on the floor and two Rolling Readers on the top?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. One Rolling Reader resting in the sill of the window?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, the Rolling Readers were stacked three aisles away, I believe you testified, haven't you, before?

Mr. SHELLEY. I'm not sure how many aisles we moved all that stock now, but it was at least three aisles.

Mr. BALL. Away from the southeast corner?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; they were at least half way across the building from this corner.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever instructed anybody to take two Rolling Readers over there?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Would it have been unusual for two Rolling Readers to be out of the stack and over there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Very unusual, because they are different size cartons from everything else.

Mr. BALL. You mean from everything else in the southeast corner?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, from any box on that floor.

Mr. BALL. They were?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; they were little boxes. The rest of them are pretty good sized.

Mr. BALL. You had had a special place for the Rolling Readers?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then, the two Rolling Readers that were over in the southeast corner were out of place, were they?

Mr. SHELLEY. They sure were.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen them out of place before?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen those Rolling Readers in that corner before?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, we have seen pictures of a large box on the floor.

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize that?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. SHELLEY. You mean the one under the Rolling Readers?

Mr. BALL. The one under the Rolling Readers.

Mr. SHELLEY. It was a carton of "Think and Do" books, first-grade level.

Mr. BALL. "Think and Do" books?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of the first-grade level?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Those cartons were larger than the Rolling Readers, aren't they?

Mr. SHELLEY. About four time as large.

Mr. BALL. Can you describe their size in inches?

Mr. SHELLEY. I would say they are around 22 long, 18 wide, and 20 tall, approximately.