Chapter X: Part 10

Mr. MAMANTOV. I have grave doubts of Marina's exit of the Soviet Union so easily. Of course, I don't have any proof one way or the other--but knowing her life from what I translated, I have more doubt of her arrangement--how the woman could come out so easy from the Soviet Union, because if I liked to get--if I would have liked to take some of my family out it would take for me years and thousands of dollars to get my closest relative out of the Soviet Union. Besides, she should be old, practically as a laborer help not useful to the Soviet Union, and here, a young lady--20 or 21, just married an American citizen came out and--but I don't want to accuse her--maybe she's completely innocent. I know other cases where people would use all possible means to get out of the Soviet Union. Maybe this is the case, but there is still in my mind quite a doubt of her coming out so easy.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else you want to add?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, not on this particular case, I think that's everything.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we have had some off the record discussions and I had a short talk with you before we began this deposition.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred during the course of our off the record discussions or preliminary talks before the deposition, that you think is pertinent here that I have failed to bring out?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I think you brought out everything that I think of.

Mr. JENNER. Was there anything you said to me in the off-the-record discussions or the preliminary discussions which, in your opinion, is inconsistent with any testimony that you have given on the record?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't think it is.

Mr. JENNER. And, as you sit there, do you have any feeling that at any time, on or off the record, that I directly or indirectly sought to influence you in any statements you might have made?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Well, we very much appreciate your cooperation and help and in sticking with us now and going into all of this with us, and at the moment, I don't have in mind anything further, but it is possible that while I am still here in Dallas this week or next week, or afterwards, I might wish to get in touch with you and have you further extend your deposition.

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. We will close the taking of the deposition of Mr. Mamantov at this point.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. DOROTHY GRAVITIS

The testimony of Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis was taken at 1 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Ilya A. Mamantov, interpreter.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to ask you both to stand up. Would you raise your right hand. Mrs. Gravitis and Mr. Ilya Mamantov, do you solemnly swear, Mrs. Gravitis that the testimony you are about to give, and Mr. Mamantov, the translation that you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Your name is Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Today?

Mr. BELIN. Now.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Richardson, Tex., 2444 Fairway Circle (AD 5-2873).

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Gravitis, is your daughter married to Mr. Mamantov?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Latvia.

Mr. BELIN. May I ask approximately how old you are?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Seventy-four years old.

Mr. BELIN. Did you live in Latvia all your life before coming to America?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. First Latvia was independent. It was part of Russia. I was born in Latvian territory, which was at that time Russia.

I was educated in Russia, in Moscow.

I was teaching in the Russian territory, and after that in Latvian territory, before Latvia became independent, in Ventspils, the name of the city where I was teaching in Latvia.

Mr. BELIN. Latvia became independent in 1918?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And remained independent until Russia annexed these three Baltic countries around 1939, or so?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. 1940. In 1913, I got married.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Do you need a very detailed story on her life?

Mr. BELIN. No.

Mrs. GRAVITIS [through interpreter]. I lived until 1950 in Ventspils, and then I and my husband were evacuated to St. Petersburg or Petrograd at that time. This was in 1915.

Mr. BELIN. Now it is Leningrad?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Leningrad.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you stay in either Russia or Latvia from that time on until after--for how long?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. From 1915 to 1919, in Petrograd. Then in 1919 I and my daughter came to Latvia. My husband remained in Petrograd. They didn't let him out.

Mr. BELIN. From 1919 onward, where did you live?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. From that time until 1940, I lived and worked as a teacher in Latvia.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you teach?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I taught mathematics, approximately the equivalent to junior high, and the Russian language.

Mr. BELIN. Did you work for the State or for a private school?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. State school.

Mr. BELIN. From 1940, where did you live and what did you do?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. At that time it became the Soviet Union, part of the Soviet Union, and I lived in the same spot in Latvia.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know the city?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Zilupe, which is about half a mile from the Russian border.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there? From 1940 on?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. All the time.

Mr. BELIN. Until when?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I worked 1 year under the communistic government as a teacher until 1941. Then I was teaching under the German occupation as a teacher until 1943. Then I came to live with Mr. Mamantov in 1943, in Riga, which is the Latvian Capital.

Mr. BELIN. Up to 1940, had your husband left Petrograd to move back to Latvia with you?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. When I came with my daughter to Latvia in 1919, I didn't go back any more, and my husband joined me in February 1923.

Mr. BELIN. And he stayed until how long? Did he stay with you in Latvia then, and what happened to him?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. When he came to Latvia, he was a railroad station manager immediately, or became. And I was a teacher in that town. And we lived there until 1941, until he was arrested.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what ever became of him?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. Just recently I received a letter from my sister-in-law and she said that he died in Siberia and didn't know when.

Mr. BELIN. When did you leave Latvia, and where did you go?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. 1944, I went to Germany.

Mr. BELIN. You went with your daughter and son-in-law?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; and two children.

Mr. BELIN. And your two children?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Your two grandchildren?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you stay in Germany?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Bavaria.

Mr. BELIN. In a camp?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; not immediately. We were all the time together, and so we came to Bavaria in October 1944, and stayed in private residences until August 1945, and at that time we went to DP camp near Guenzburg.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in the DP camp? Until when?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Four years in--until October of 1949, when we went to Bremerhaven and proceeded to the United States.

Mr. MAMANTOV. She left 2 weeks ahead of us because her name started with "G".

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go in the United States when you got here? Where have you lived since you have come here?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. In New York City.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you live in New York, and where have you lived since then?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately 1-1/2 or 2. However, we left New York February 28, 1952.

Mr. BELIN. And you came to----

Mrs. GRAVITIS. To Post, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is that near Dallas?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. 325 miles west of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in Post, Tex.?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I am sorry, Brownfield, which is 38 miles north of Post.

Mr. BELIN. Where have you lived in Texas since then?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Quite a few places, because I don't remember the small towns. Brownfield, Lubbock, and again Brownfield.

Mr. BELIN. Since you have come to Texas, have you always lived with your daughter and son-in-law?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN [to Mr. Mamantov]. So in your deposition, I would assume then, Mr. Mamantov, what you said, I would find the places you have lived in Texas?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Before coming to Texas, did you do anything in Europe other than teach? Any occupation other than teaching when you were in Europe?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Before we left Latvia, you mean?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was a housewife also. No other profession.

Mr. BELIN. Since coming to America, what has been your occupation?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. In New York I was part-time janitor together with Mr. Mamantov, on Broadway somewhere. Was cleaning the sidewalks and heating the furnace. The people helped me, the neighbors helped me to clean the sidewalks.

I was raising the grandchildren, and by that time we had three. One was born in Germany. Then after that I sewed and taught Russian, individual students.

Mr. BELIN. This is generally what you have done then since coming to Texas, is private tutoring?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. And sewing. The sewing is the main point, but tutoring on and off, because it is not enough students.

Mr. BELIN. When did you first become acquainted with Ruth Paine, Mrs. Michael Paine?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was teaching in Berlitz School here in Dallas. I was also teaching Mrs. Paine. This was 3 years ago, but I don't remember the date when I started. And Mrs. Paine used to take Russian instructions at the Berlitz school, but not from me. I can add this.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how much the Berlitz School of Russian lessons cost?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. You mean how much I got paid?

Mr. BELIN. No; how much Mrs. Paine paid?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know for sure. The principal didn't tell me, but I heard somewhere from $5 to $6.

Mr. BELIN. That is at the Berlitz School?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. He paid me $2.50.

Mr. BELIN. $2.50 for a private lesson?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Being directly, not through the Berlitz School?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; I received remuneration.

Mr. BELIN. The Berlitz School paid you $2.50?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. For how long a teaching session would this be?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. One hour.

Mr. BELIN. A private session at the Berlitz School for one hour, or would this be several people in the class?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. If I had one student, then I received $2.50. If I had two, then I received $3.

Mr. BELIN. When you taught Mrs. Paine, was there generally one student?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Excuse me, I never taught Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Paine was taking lessons before I came to that school.

Mr. BELIN. How did you get in contact with Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I gave two lessons to Mrs. Paine at the Berlitz School. This way I became acquainted and she said it was too expensive, and Mrs. Paine dropped out of school.

Mr. MAMANTOV. After she dropped out, Mrs. Paine called me at the office and asked me to teach, and I refused, but I suggested my mother-in-law would teach her at home.

Mr. BELIN. At whose home?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. At our home. I mean it is a private lesson for $8 per hour, private lesson.

Mr. BELIN. When Mrs. Paine was taking from you those two lessons at the Berlitz School, was there anyone else in the class with her?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She was by herself and I gave her only two lessons.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of student was Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She was a good student, talented, serious.

Mr. BELIN. Had she had any contact with any other Russian teachers, that you know of, in Russia?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Pardon me?

Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine have any contact with any Russian teachers in Russia?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What do you know about this?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was correcting the lessons. I had the letters--Mrs. Paine was writing to this particular teacher. The name of this teacher was Nina, and she was teaching English language, beginning classes. Some were in Russian, somewhere in Russia. I don't remember the name of the city.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how Mrs. Paine got in contact with this Russian teacher?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her, and as far as I remember, she said through a youth organization, but she didn't go into detail. I didn't question her any more.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the name of the youth organization was?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Or was it a political youth organization?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. In the letters that you translated or corrected did the grammar of Mrs. Paine, contain any political discussion?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Letters, you mean?

Mr. BELIN. The letters that Mrs. Paine was sending to the teacher, or the letters you saw from the teacher, was there any political discussion involved?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. When did you first start teaching Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I started some time during the summer before Mrs. Paine's son was born, who was born in February, the following February, and then she discontinued taking lessons.

Mr. BELIN. What period would this have been? What year?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately 3 years ago. The boy right now is 3 years old, so we say 1961.

Mr. BELIN. 1960, wouldn't it?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. The boy was born in 1961. Yes; 1960, the summer of 1960.

Mr. BELIN. After the boy was born, did you ever give her any more Russian language lessons?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; during the fall when the boy was a few months old.

Mr. BELIN. Did you keep up contact with Mrs. Paine after she quit taking lessons?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When did you first hear or learn about Marina Oswald?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Either April or May. Probably April. Mr. and Mrs. Fredricksen came to our house and told us they had attended a party, that there was an American who came recently from the Soviet Union, and his wife is a Russian.

Mr. BELIN. When did you first have a conversation with Marina Oswald?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I never have talked with her in person, but only on the phone. In May of that particular year, Mrs. Paine went to San Antonio, and she asked me would I help Marina because she doesn't know the English language and nobody could help her.

Mr. BELIN. This was Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She asked me to help, and Marina was pregnant at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Have you ever met Marina Oswald?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever met, or did you ever meet Lee Harvey Oswald, her husband?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Lee Harvey Oswald on the telephone?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Marina Oswald on the telephone?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How many times, approximately, have you talked to Marina Oswald?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Two.

Mr. BELIN. When did the first conversation take place, and what was said?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. The time when Mrs. Paine went to San Antonio, we had a severe storm, and the next day in the morning, I called Marina at the Paine's home.

Mr. BELIN. This would have been when?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I think this was in May 1962, or 1963, I forget. This was this past summer, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. What did Marina Oswald say? Did she say where she was from and where she lived before she came to this country?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her where did she come from, from what city in Russia. The answer was, she came from Leningrad and used to live in Leningrad, on Ligovka Street.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say she lived anywhere else other than Leningrad?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said she lived in Minsk and got married in Minsk, and together with her husband--excuse me it is just the reverse. She lived in Minsk, got married in Minsk, and went to Leningrad and lived on this street in Leningrad.

Mr. BELIN. After she was married?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. She lived in Leningrad with her husband after she got married?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Would you mind if she started again?

Mr. BELIN. Let's start at the beginning now.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Minsk she got married. This is White Russia. And then together with her husband arrived at Leningrad. They lived in Leningrad on this street, Ligovka Street.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Now mother stresses that so much, because she remembers this part in Petrograd very well, and this was the laborers, the poor part of Leningrad--I mean of Petrograd at that time, and somehow brought mother's memory back to Petrograd.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say what she did in Leningrad and Minsk after she was married, or what her husband did?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her what is her profession. She said she is a pharmacist. And I was surprised at 22 years and pharmacist.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say what her husband did in Russia?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and she didn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say what her father did?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. She said that she didn't have parents. Father and mother were dead, and for this reason she had easier time to get out of Russia.

Mr. BELIN. Did she have a stepfather?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she came to the United States?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said her husband was returning home and she came with her husband. I was very surprised how did the Soviet Union let you out, I asked Marina. She said, "We had a luck."

Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything else about that?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. "Husband doesn't have work here." I mean in the United States, and so her husband didn't have any income, and for this reason she lives at Mrs. Paine's home.

Mr. BELIN. Did she give any other statements about how she happened to get out of Russia other than that she had luck?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and I felt she wouldn't tell me. I mean, I didn't ask, and I feel if I asked, Marina wouldn't tell me. Nobody who is coming out from there would tell how they got out or why they got out. She was complaining that her husband didn't have work here and couldn't get a job. I replied that everybody who wants to work in the United States can get a job. Then she asked me what kind of work you mean. I said any kind of laboring work is possible. Roadwork or any kind of work. And she said that her husband thinks that such type of work is below his dignity.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say whether or not her husband was a Communist?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She would like to ask you now what do you understand by the word Communist?

Mr. BELIN. Well, I would like to have your mother-in-law explain just what she would call it.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I had a conversation. I said here in Dallas is a person or a gentleman who helps many Russians who are arriving in this city, or who has helped in the past, Mr. Bouhe. Marina said, "Yes, I know him." She said her husband and Mr. Bouhe don't match in their characters. And I replied that you think probably not match the characters, but they agree in their principles, and she said, "Yes."

Mr. MAMANTOV. She said, my husband--and this word, I don't know exactly how to translate it--I mistranslated it for the FBI, this word, and I think in your investigation it is very important.

She replied that her husband is now--I could not translate just the individual word. I have to give you the meaning of the Russian word, which was developed fairly recently--that my husband is a person who believes in ideas, and it means ideals of the Communist movement. Now, I can give you the translation of this word if you would like to insert, because maybe in Washington you can get a better description of this word.

Mr. BELIN. Can you spell the word?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; ideinyi--which has political connotations, and it means a person who believes in the Communist movement, Communist ideals, but doesn't hold yet a ticket or membership in the Communist Party. But this is a step to achieve the membership in the Communist Party.

And I think it is very important, which mother emphasizes, and I translated it in the FBI report, "idealist," which is not correct. So it is broken down first, pioneer. Second, the membership in the Youth Communist Party. Third, the candidate for the Communist Party. And this third step is eventually for this particular work.

Mr. BELIN. As I understand it now, you say there are various stages to become a member of the Communist Party in Russia, is that correct?

Mr. MAMANTOV. When mother heard this word from Marina, she couldn't talk to her any more or ask her any questions, because this stage of the person becoming a full time member Communist was most dangerous for the people in Russia or in Latvia or in the Soviet Union.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by most dangerous?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I mean that this is the most dangerous stage, because this person or during this stage, they are spying on other people. They are spying on other people to gain personal reward from the communistic people.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, they had to do certain deeds when they go to the last stage, which is the actual Communist membership, is that it?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. I also said in the previous conversation, which I can assure you that this is true, which I know from my personal experience. When I was teaching from 1940 until 1941, people like this, who were in this particular stage, who were not yet members of the Communist Party, were spying on me, listening behind the door when I was teaching in the class, and this way it is my experience from that.

Mr. BELIN. I believe that she said that a very small percentage of the Russians are actual members of the Communist Party, and that it is the screening process that gets memberships, is that correct?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. It is a small percent of population are the members, are the actual members of the Communist Party, and to become, they have to gain reward. I mean, they have to be advanced by the individual deed.

Mr. BELIN. About what percent are members of the Communist Party?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Are you asking her at that time when she left or what it is now?

Mr. BELIN. Both.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. At that time there were approximately 2 million, which is 1 percent, approximately. And I have read recently that there are approximately 5 or more million people members.

Mr. BELIN. But she doesn't know of her own knowledge?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She read. She said that she read recently also that there are approximately 20 million of the communistic youth members, or members of the communistic youth organization.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. If you don't belong to that organization, you cannot get education. You cannot advance in your educational system.

Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say whether she was a Communist?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that when she got married she was expelled from the communistic youth organization, which in Russia is called Komsomol.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she was expelled?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because she married an American. I understood that this was the reason why she was expelled. And I asked how did they allow you to leave the Soviet Union. When you are expelled, they considered them as enemies of the people, and they don't give them permission even to work, a working permit. And they don't give those people also the free education or scholarship.

Mr. BELIN. When you are expelled from the Communist movement, does this affect whether or not you get out of the country?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. I think it wouldn't help.

Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything else about her husband?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say much about the people that she knew here in Dallas, Tex.?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that many Russians helped her and Americans here in this vicinity helped her. She said that she wouldn't like to meet with the Russians any more.

Mr. BELIN. Why not?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because Russians are asking too many questions. I feel that because she got tired of being questioned all the time.

Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say whether or not she would take any work here?

Mr. MAMANTOV. They haven't talked on this particular subject. However, mother's interpretation is that she couldn't work because she has a small child. She talked only about her husband who didn't have work and they didn't have an automobile.

Mr. BELIN. Didn't have an automobile?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Did her husband know how to drive?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about her husband as a photographer?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; he would like to obtain a job as a photographer. And I understood that he was in Oak Cliff a photographer, and when he went to New Orleans, he continued to look for a job as a photographer.

Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything about what her husband did or had done in Russia and where he had gone?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; only that he was in Minsk and then Leningrad so much. I didn't ask her any more questions.

Mr. BELIN. Could he travel in Russia?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of living accommodations did Lee Harvey Oswald have in Russia? A house, or an apartment, or what?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that in Leningrad they had a room, and she volunteered to say that the room was better than the Russian people locally would have.

Mr. BELIN. Why was this?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Was because her husband was an American.

Mr. BELIN. Was it just that he was an American? Did she say, or was it because he was in this so-called third stage of the--of becoming a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about whether or not the husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, had a gun in Russia or whether he went hunting there?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. She didn't say anything?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't have time to talk. It is my personal opinion, if he is just an average man in Russia, he wouldn't have any chance to have a gun or rifle or shotgun in Russia.

Mr. BELIN. What about to become a member of a hunting club or go hunting?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. This is so in America. There is no such thing as hunting clubs over there.

Mr. BELIN. You know of no such hunting clubs over there?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Of course there are trappers, but either they are professional trappers or they are members of the communistic party. Otherwise, you have to have permission to have a firearm.

Mr. BELIN. You have to be a member of the Communist Party to belong to a hunting club?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything about ever going for walks to discuss things so they wouldn't be overheard when they were in Russia?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. When you say that the living accommodations were better because Lee Harvey Oswald was an American, what do you mean they were better? In what way would they be better than the average person there?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. The room was larger, cleaner, and probably in a better area of the city. I think, because he would write to his relatives, that he certainly would say that he had better accommodations.

Mr. BELIN. What did Marina Oswald say about how she liked the United States?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She liked the United States and she also said that she was watching TV that particular day when they talked, and she saw our President being in the crowd and shaking hands with people. It was unbelievable. She said it is unbelievable such a freedom.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about whether she belonged to a church?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Russia or in the United States?

Mr. BELIN. Here in the States.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She didn't say that she belonged to a church, but she did say that she christened her daughter or she had christened her daughter.

Mr. BELIN. And what church?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. The Greek Orthodox. It is called Eastern Orthodox.

Mr. BELIN. Here in Dallas?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else in this first conversation that you had with her that she said about her husband?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. First of all, what struck me was that she said it is below his dignity to take any kind of work. That surprised me very much. That is my personal interpretation.

Mr. BELIN. My question is this. Is there anything else that Marina Oswald said about her husband?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now did you have any other telephone conversations with Marina Oswald?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Two times.

Mr. BELIN. Two more?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Twice in total.

Mr. BELIN. Two conversations in total?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, the first one you said was in May of 1963?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. When was the second one?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately maybe 2 or 3 weeks. I don't remember exactly when Mrs. Paine came back from San Antonio.

Mr. BELIN. This would be, say, June of 1963?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately. Before she went to New Orleans.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked to Marina Oswald since that time?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Paine about either Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald since these conversations with Marina Oswald, or about that time? Have you ever since talked to Mrs. Paine about the Oswalds?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you say, and what did Mrs. Paine say?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine told me that Oswald obtained a job as a photographer in New Orleans, and now Marina can join him and go to New Orleans.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever invite you over to the home to meet Marina Oswald or her husband?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; but she offered to bring Marina to our house. I mean, she didn't invite me to her own house, but offered to bring Marina to our house.

Mr. BELIN. What did you say to that?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She can bring Marina, but not her husband.

Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you want her husband?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because he was using again this word, ideinyi. He was in the third stage of obtaining the Communist membership. Because I am afraid, and all of us are afraid that they are collecting some information on us and notifying their own people.

Mr. BELIN. By the use of the word "they," who do you mean? Lee Harvey Oswald, Marina Oswald, or both, or some other person?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Oswald--the people who are in this particular stage trying to get promotion. So they would spy on us. I had a fear.

Mr. BELIN. Did you think or did you say anything to Mrs. Paine about whether Marina Oswald had anything to do with this group that might be trying to spy, or what have you?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. If I said to----

Mr. BELIN. To Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; have not said. However, I said to Mrs. Paine to be more careful.

Mr. BELIN. What did Mrs. Paine say to that?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said, "don't worry." Mrs. Paine is an American woman, and she is very naive, as all Americans are naive, nice, and very generous.

Mr. BELIN. Are you a citizen, Mrs. Gravitis?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Are you coming here voluntarily to testify before the Warren Commission, the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; we received a letter from Washington, of course.

Mr. BELIN. But you are here voluntarily to testify here? You have been asked to come here?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Nobody dragged us here; yes. We certainly volunteered, if you interpret it that way.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information you can give about Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina Oswald that you feel might be helpful in any way?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. You mean personal opinion?

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine told me that Oswald--I did not know her last name, she always called her Marina and Lee--so Mrs. Paine told me that Lee wants to send his wife to the Soviet Union. I asked why. She said, "She was pregnant." And she said, "Lee said that he doesn't have money to pay doctor bills, but had enough money to send her back to the Soviet Union." I said that this isn't true. I was surprised, and I replied that this isn't true, because it is possible if a person doesn't have money, that medical help would be given for free here in the States. That is, Mrs. Paine was surprised if this could be true, that we could get local free help. I suggested to her to contact her personal physician and he will send Marina somewhere.

She said I will go on my way back from vacation and pick up Marina and bring her. And then when she got back, she called me again and said she is very happy for this suggestion, that Marina got free medical help, had another baby, and even the doctor offered with her dental work, and she said the treatment was excellent in the hospital. I was very surprised how Mrs. Paine didn't know, and Oswald being also an American didn't know that local help or local medical help is available to people who don't have money.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine or Marina Oswald or anyone say anything more to you about Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald that you think should be noted here, that we should discuss?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Maybe, but I don't remember right now.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you care to add?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine told me that Lee is very bad husband, that he even hit her, Marina.

Mr. BELIN. When did Mrs. Paine tell you this?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. When she went to pick up Marina in New Orleans. She said, "I have to go in person to pick her up because I cannot write her things like that, that Lee would read her letters and then would reprimand his wife."

Mr. BELIN. Did she say whether Marina said that this had been different, that Lee had always been this way about hitting his wife, or was this something different that happened when they came to New Orleans?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Marina did not tell me.

Mr. BELIN. I mean Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and she didn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of that might be helpful here?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine was at our house the first of April of this year, 1964. I asked if she thought if Marina would know if Lee had intended to kill somebody, or President. And Mrs. Paine replied that she thought that Marina did not know. However, she felt that Marina knew that Oswald was in Mexico, but she didn't tell Marina.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean she didn't tell Marina?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Excuse me, Marina didn't tell Mrs. Paine. Marina knew that Oswald was in Mexico, but about his being there, didn't tell Mrs. Paine.

Mr. BELIN. Why do you feel that Mexico was very important?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because I felt that he was preparing himself for a trip somewhere; either Cuba or somewhere else.

Mr. BELIN. But this is just a feeling, or did you have any facts upon which to base it?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; this is my personal feeling.

Mr. BELIN. Any other facts that you know of that might be helpful here?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I would help you more, but I don't have enough acquaintance here in town that I really feel that I would know more. I know Mrs. Paine beside her Russian tutoring so well, because Mrs. Paine or her husband left her. She was separated or still is separated, so Mrs. Paine more or less came to me an elderly person for advice. Her husband came home after the President was assassinated.

Mr. BELIN. Why did he come home, do you know?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her, but Mrs. Paine said she don't know why. And she still has domestic problems. I feel that he would like to make it easier on her after that particular time.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for coming down here, Mrs. Gravitis, and also thank you very much, for your help.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Thank you; Mr. Belin.

Mr. BELIN. Your mother-in-law has the opportunity to read the deposition and sign it or make corrections. Do you want to come down and do that with her some time, or do you want to waive the signing and let it go directly to Washington?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She trusts you without signing.

Mr. BELIN. So you waive the signing?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

TESTIMONY OF PAUL RODERICK GREGORY

The testimony of Paul Roderick Gregory was taken at 4 p.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and I will swear you as a witness?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GREGORY. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to advise you that my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your deposition by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote you a letter either last week or the week before last, with respect to your appearance to give testimony. I believe that he included a copy of the Executive order and the Resolution of Congress, as well as a copy of the Commission's Rules of Procedure relating to the taking of testimony; isn't that right?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to inquire of you today concerning your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, which we understand you gained as a result of your association with the Oswalds, basically during 1962.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. GREGORY. Paul Roderick Gregory.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently a student of the University of Oklahoma; isn't that right?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What are you studying at the University of Oklahoma?

Mr. GREGORY. Russian language and literature.

Mr. LIEBELER. What year are you in at the University?

Mr. GREGORY. First year graduate student.

Mr. LIEBELER. You already hold a degree from the University?

Mr. GREGORY. I have a bachelor's degree in economics.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are now pursuing a master's or doctor's?

Mr. GREGORY. A master's degree.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the subject you have just indicated?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; Russian language and literature.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are the son, are you not, of Peter Paul Gregory?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where does he live?

Mr. GREGORY. 3513 Dorothy Lane, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is originally from somewhere in Siberia, is that not correct?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he came to the United States approximately when, do you know?

Mr. GREGORY. I would guess about 1920, or '21, or '22. I am not sure of the exact year.

Mr. LIEBELER. He has engaged in business as a geological consultant, is that correct?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When is the last time you were home in Fort Worth?

Mr. GREGORY. I can't tell you the exact date. It must have been February the 10th, I believe, or February the 9th, because it was right around my birthday, which is February the 10th.

Mr. LIEBELER. What year were you born?

Mr. GREGORY. 1941.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had occasion to speak with your father over the telephone or to exchange letters with him since the time he appeared before the Commission in Washington.

Mr. GREGORY. I spoke with him approximately three times since that, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with him the testimony that he gave before the Commission?

Mr. GREGORY. No. He only said that he mentioned my name. That is the only thing he said about the testimony.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when that was and the circumstances of that event?

Mr. GREGORY. I met Lee and Marina Oswald in the summer of 1962. I would suppose in the middle of June. I met them both at Lee's brother's house in the western part of Fort Worth. Lee Oswald had become acquainted with my father a week or two weeks earlier. I think he came to him with the desire to get some kind of paper showing his ability in the Russian language; I think he wanted to get a job as interpreter or something; some kind of work which would have something to do with his ability to use Russian.

I think he came in my father's office twice. I am not sure, because I wasn't there, and gave him the address of his brother where he was staying at the time.

And I don't know, he may have said, "Come see us." And my father and I were both interested in meeting his wife who was Russian, we heard. So, I believe my father found out their address and we went out for a visit, purely social visit. That was, as I say, probably in the middle of June, 1962, and that was the first time I ever met either Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that at some time, in about June of 1962, your father invited the Oswalds to come to your house?

Mr. GREGORY. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that before or after the time that you mentioned?

Mr. GREGORY. That was at the end of the summer. They had actually been at our house twice. One time about a month before this dinner at our house. I just drove by with them for a few minutes. That was the first time they had ever been to our house. And the second time was at this dinner which you mentioned.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the dinner?

Mr. GREGORY. I can't give you the date. It was near the end of the summer, I imagine, in August, 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. So the first time, then, that you met Oswald was at his brother's place in Fort Worth?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was present at that first meeting?

Mr. GREGORY. His brother's name, I think, was Bob Oswald. Bob Oswald's wife and their children, I think they had two or three young kids, Lee, and Marina, and June Lee, their baby, those were the only people there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Plus your father and yourself?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, what the conversation was at that time?

Mr. GREGORY. I remember they brought out pictures which they had taken in the Soviet Union and showed us where they had lived in Minsk, and I believe they might have had pictures of Leningrad. I am not sure. And then this evening there was something said about their trip back, how they passed through Poland and Germany. And then my father wanted to know how, what Marina thought of Russia, if it had changed after all the years. And that was the general tone of the conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any details of the conversation about the Oswalds' life in Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. At this time I did not. Later on we had quite a bit of discussion about it, but not this time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you go through the period of time that you knew the Oswalds, and to the best of your recollection tell us the approximate number of times that you saw them and the circumstances under which you saw them, and the dates that you can remember, from the first time you met them at Robert Oswald's house at Fort Worth, to the last time that you saw them?

Mr. GREGORY. Okay. We have already gone through the first meeting, and right after the first meeting I left town for about a month. I visited in San Francisco. I returned and then we decided it would be a good idea if I would take Russian lessons from Marina, and it would be quite a big help.

Therefore, the second time I saw them was in June, the middle of June, a month, and to the 10th of August, let's say, just as a guess, we went over to their house, my father and I.

We had to go somewhere, and therefore we only stayed for about ten minutes. And we said, "Paul would like to take Russian lessons from Marina," and she said, "Fine." And I set up dates to go twice a week, I think Tuesdays and Thursdays, or Tuesdays and Fridays--I can't remember the exact dates. Therefore, I was at their house two times a week from, say, the middle of August until I went back to school which was in the middle of September.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you also present at the dinner which your father gave for the Oswalds?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was present at that dinner?

Mr. GREGORY. Myself, my father, the Oswalds, George Bouhe, Anna Meller, her husband, I can't remember his first name; then Mrs. Clark and Mr. Clark. I can't give you their first names.

Mr. LIEBELER. You clearly remember that they were there?

Mr. GREGORY. I think they were there. I could be mistaken. There is a possibility they weren't. I can't remember exactly.

Usually, the reason is, whenever we have the Russians over, they were there. Now that I think about it, they weren't, because I believe my mother was the only one that didn't understand, and Mrs. Clark's husband didn't understand Russian. Therefore, I guess they weren't there. Then my mother was there and June Lee was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Oswalds' little girl?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I believe that was all. And I saw them once more, if you are interested. That was probably the Friday or Saturday after Thanksgiving of 1962.

Marina called up. I was home for vacation. And she said that she and Lee were at Robert Oswald's house for Thanksgiving dinner, or something, and she wanted me to come over and pick them up and have the visit, and I would take them down to the bus station, because they rode the bus over from Dallas.

They had since then moved to Dallas. And I went and picked them up and brought them back to our house and we had sandwiches, and I took them down to the bus station, and that was the last time I saw them.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just left them off at the bus station and they went and got on the bus, and as far as you know, went back to Dallas?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't pay for the bus tickets, did you?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You let them off at the bus station in Fort Worth?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You let them--did you ever give any money to either Lee or Marina Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I gave Marina a check. As I remember, it was around $35 or $40, something like that.

This was for the Russian lessons which she did give me. As I remember, $35, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all the money that you gave to either of them?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that check was made out to Marina Oswald, is that correct?

Mr. GREGORY. Marina.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend the Oswalds any money?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see anybody else ever give either of the Oswalds any money?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of anybody else ever giving them any money?

Mr. GREGORY. I believe Mr. Bouhe gave them money. I know he gave them gifts, playthings for their daughter, and possibly clothes. I heard he gave them clothes, but I, myself, did not see this, so that is hearsay.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did either of the Oswalds ever spend any money or pay any bills while in your presence?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I often took them--I believe the second day I would go over in the week was Friday, and I would usually take them shopping and we would go down to a Leonard Department Store where you could get groceries cheaper, and they would buy their groceries at this time. But the only articles they were purchasing in my presence was food.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of approximately how much they spent on food?

Mr. GREGORY. It was very little. I recall I was amazed at how little they bought, and that Lee would always be very careful with the meat. He would be sure to get the cheapest possible cut he could get, and he would haggle and make sure they gave him the best. I mean, that he would get the better cuts and things like that. I remember they bought very little though.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the groceries, you never saw them spend any money or pay any bills; is that correct?

Mr. GREGORY. No; never.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not see them? I suppose the answer should be, "Yes; I did not see them"?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I did not see them paying any bills.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the Oswalds ever discuss their finances with you, or discuss their finances between themselves that you ever heard?

Mr. GREGORY. Not that I can remember. There is something faintly about them saying, "Well, if we had this money, we would buy something for June Lee," but I can't think of any specific instance.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, taking all of your experiences with the Oswalds together and all of the conversations that you had with them, would you relate to us what they told you, and differentiate between Lee or Marina, as best you can, about the whole Russian episode, why Oswald went to Russia; what he did when he was there; how he met Marina; why he decided to come back; and how he came back, and so on?

Mr. GREGORY. On one of the questions I can't answer very well because I never discussed with him why he went. I personally never asked him.

At this dinner, I am sure you have already heard an account of it, he explained that he went because he was disgusted with the American system or the capitalist system where everything is run by money and the desire to get money. That seemed to be his only objection, that I ever heard, and his only reason as to why he left.

Let's see, what was the other. Oh, according to Lee, then also he was very disgusted with the Marines, how the Marines had treated him. I don't know if you could classify that as a reason for him leaving and going to the Soviet Union. Maybe it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?

Mr. GREGORY. Oh, I just asked him--I knew he had been in the Marines--what he thought of it. He would never speak of it. He was sort of--look disgusted and say, "I don't want to talk about it," or something like that. Those are the only two reasons which I heard, and the second one would be one which I am not sure of.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never discussed with you beyond the extent you have indicated, his experience in the Marine Corps?