Chapter XI: Part 11

Mr. GREGORY. No; he was disgusted with it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate anything about his discharge from the Marines?

Mr. GREGORY. No; he never did. I think a lot of things which he told me were like the way he talked, that he graduated from high school, from the same high school that I had gone to, and I read in the papers that he was only there a month or so. So, possibly a lot of information which he had given me would not be right, but he never did speak of a discharge.

Mr. LIEBELER. Whether it would be right or not, it is important that you tell us what he told you. You indicate now that he did tell you that he graduated from Arlington Heights High School, is that correct?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you believed that until after the assassination and you read in the newspaper that he had not, in fact, graduated from Arlington?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of job he had in the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. He was in some kind of factory. Evidently, according to him, it had something to do with radio equipment, because I remember asking him once about thievery in the Soviet Union, because I always read or had thought that factory workers take what they need and barter because they don't get enough or are not able to make enough money to buy all they need. And he said that he himself had stolen a radio and phonograph. From that I know it was some kind of a shop and he ran some kind of a machine. Because he told me of some incident when he had to--the shop had to be changed, or they moved the equipment into another building, and the first thing they moved was the picture of Lenin and later they moved the equipment. It was heavy equipment, and they set the machines so that the men could work facing Lenin. And then they decided Lenin had to be hung in the most favorable place in the shop, and the Commissar came in and inspected the next setup and decided Lenin wasn't in the right place, and, therefore, they had to come back in and completely remount all the machinery and turn it around to face Lenin's new position.

He brought that up as a--I would ask him about what the people in the Soviet Union think of a person who is a member of the Communist Party. And he seemed to classify all members of the Communist Party as opportunists who were in it just to get something for themselves out of it, and he brought up this incident here because it was a Communist Party man who came in and said you have to put Lenin back there, and therefore you have to completely re-do all the machinery. He thought it was stupid. And he said all the members of the Communist Party were always the ones that shouted the loudest and made the most noise and pretended to be the most patriotic, but he seemed to have quite a disgust for the members of the Communist Party.

Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated quite a disgust for them?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; he thought they were opportunists and it was my impression that he thought they were ruining the principles which the country should be based on. In other words, they were not true Communists. They were ruining the heaven on earth which it should be, in his opinion. That might have been a personal interpretation on my part.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything more than the kind of place that he worked and what he did?

Mr. GREGORY. Just that he worked in a shop that I mentioned. I remember his main complaint about his life there was that he didn't get enough to eat, that he had to go, either he or Marina, would have to go stand in line in order to get anything, and he seemed to have only potatoes and cabbage while he was there. And he would always speak about how poorly he ate. That seemed to be his great objection to the Soviet Union, that he didn't eat very well.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that the same was true of other Soviet citizens, or----

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. They all had the same trouble?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way that he might have received more favorable treatment as compared to other Soviet citizens who held similar jobs?

Mr. GREGORY. No. I think he was under the opinion that he possibly received worse than just average treatment, because I think in the Soviet Union, as I understand it, the methods of the bestowing of favors is to give somebody a good apartment, because of the housing shortage. And he complained that he did not get good housing. He lived in a poor apartment, and that he was unable to change his job or leave, because he had no place to go.

If he would leave or go to another factory, he would not be able to get a new apartment. And I think I asked him a question about are people in the Soviet Union free to change jobs and travel from place to place, and he said maybe technically but they can't because it depends on the apartment.

Then, as to whether he got special treatment, I asked Marina. I said, "Was he the center of attention in Russia," and she said he was quite a, I wouldn't say freak or oddity, but something quite unusual, and I am sure he enjoyed this fact that he was the center of attention. She said she met him at a dance, I guess in Minsk, and she didn't know who he was, and she danced with him or something, and thought he was, because of his accent, thought he was from the Baltic States, and later somebody called her aside and said, "I guess you don't know who he is," and so forth, and I guess they more or less left him alone.

I know he mentioned having several friends in the Soviet Union. One was some young fellow, I think his name was Pavel, and possibly another fellow, and I know after he was in the United States he continued to correspond with these people over there.

He showed me letters which he had written to them or which he was getting ready to send, and letters which he had received. I believe one was the son of a highly fairly influential person.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would that have been Pavel?

Mr. GREGORY. I think. I just remember something about him, about him being a general's son or a colonel's son.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his last name?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think you would remember it if I mention it to you?

Mr. GREGORY. There is a possibility. I believe they let me read one letter which was harmless. There was no--I mean it was a personal letter. Maybe I would.

Mr. LIEBELER. G-o-l-a-c-h-e-v [spelling], would that be the name?

Mr. GREGORY. It might be. To tell you the truth, the first name Pavel, I am fairly sure of the Pavel part.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I think that is correct.

Mr. GREGORY. That is the only name I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember the name of this other fellow?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald let you read any letters other than the one you just mentioned?

Mr. GREGORY. No. It may have just arrived or he was explaining something about how you address a letter differently. How you put where it is going at the top, and the return at the bottom. He was showing me something, and as I recall, I read the letter, but it was just personal matters. I can't even remember the contents.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of the contents of the letter at this point?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything in it, as far as you can remember, that would indicate that it was secretive or anything of that sort?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. On this question of whether Oswald thought that possibly he was treated less favorably than other Soviet citizens, there has been some testimony that he perhaps felt disenchanted with the Soviet Union because he was not given the kind of job that he expected to be given when he got there.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I remember something now. He expected--I think he and I got along well because he considered me fairly smart because I was interested in the Soviet matters, and therefore our discussions were quite a bit about academic matters, and he pretended, or possibly was, fairly well educated. He seemed to read quite a bit. But he expected to go over there and get into a Russian university. He made an application for the Peace University or one of these universities for the foreign students, I think, and he was quite disenchanted when he was not accepted into this. That was his first idea, I believe, to go over there and go to school. Then after he was not accepted, they sent him somewhere to work in a little factory, and I guess he didn't quite like this.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that one of the reasons he had gone to Russia was to enter college or university there?

Mr. GREGORY. I don't know as that was one of his reasons for going, but that seemed to me, according to him, the first thing he did was make this application.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention to you anything about an application to the Albert Schweitzer College in Switzerland? Did he indicate to you in any other way that he was dissatisfied with the treatment he had received by Russian authorities?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, there was. He said when he wanted to return, it was touch and go whether Marina would get to come back with him, and he felt that she had been discriminated against, because he told about meetings which they had held in the factory or place where Marina worked denouncing her as a traitor, et cetera, because she wanted to leave the country. And I think this went on for weeks and weeks where they put pressure on her not to go with him, and he expressed amazement for the fact that they did allow her to return with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any more of the details about what he said about that?

Mr. GREGORY. About these meetings?

Mr. LIEBELER. About the meetings and his expression of amazement as to why they did let Marina come back.

Mr. GREGORY. I think he said something about it was just an accident where maybe 1 out of 10 just happens to get through where they allow it. He seemed to think there was no special reason that they let her go. It was more or less an accident.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say that to you?

Mr. GREGORY. Or an exception, yes, as I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that he indicated to you his surprise that Marina had been permitted to leave the Soviet Union with him?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He explained it basically in terms of an accident or something that he couldn't readily explain?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he offer as a suggestion as to why they had permitted Marina to come back anything to the effect that it was a time of reduced tension between the Soviet Union and the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. Not that I can remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he said about the subject of Marina being able to come back with him?

Mr. GREGORY. No. Marina spoke of it as being a very horrible time with all her friends putting pressure on her, and it was very unpleasant for her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate that she had had any nervous difficulties as a result of this?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn at any time from either of the Oswalds that Marina had gone to the hospital as the result of the pressure that was put upon her by her friends?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention to you, or either of them mention to you, that Marina went to Kharkov on a vacation at one time?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I asked them about travel that each of them had done in the Soviet Union, and the only other place that they mentioned as having been, or one of them as having been, was Leningrad, which was the city where Marina received her training as a pharmacist. And I don't know if Lee had gone to Leningrad or not. Of course, Lee would always tell me about his trips to Moscow and his trips to the mausoleum, and going to all the museums and factories. He seemed to speak as if he were a regular tourist then, because they assigned him an interpreter, and evidently he paid the regular tourist fee.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you when this was?

Mr. GREGORY. No; he may have told me. I am sure it was in winter, because he said--no, I am not sure. Put this down as something I don't remember well, but I think that he said that it was cold and that the Russians let him get up to the first line because he was an American. It could have been someone else, because I have had several friends that--I can't remember if that was Lee or not.

When he did speak of, I believe when we were having our conversations was after--I can't remember when the de-Stalinization was, when they took Stalin out of the mausoleum, but it happened before Lee came back, and I asked him about that. That was another thing he seemed to get quite a laugh out of. He looked at it very skeptically and thought the Russians should be laughed at for doing things like this, where the street signs would change overnight and no one would mention Stalin's name any more, and he thought it was highly comical. I am saying this to show that, in my opinion, he wasn't--never mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. No; I would like to hear your remarks.

Mr. GREGORY. Well, I don't know how to put it. In other words, he looked at things critically over there.

He was not one who would say Khrushchev said this, therefore it is right. He always was more or less critically observant of everything he saw over there.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say critically, you mean, as I understand now your use of the word, he attempted to observe things objectively and perceptively? He just didn't follow things because somebody handed it out?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't mean to use the words in the sense that he was just complaining about things, do you?

Mr. GREGORY. I could say you can use it in both senses. My main point was that if Khrushchev says this, well, any good party man or anyone who would be a conformist, if Khrushchev says that is fine, he was not that type. He always expressed a great admiration for Khrushchev. He seemed to think he was quite a brilliant man. And he said you cannot read a speech of Khrushchev's without liking the man. He said he was a very rough man, a very crude man, but he thought of him as a very brilliant man and very able leader.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he might have said about him, Mr. Khrushchev?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, he might have spoken of him several times, but that was the general idea. And while we were on Khrushchev, whenever he would speak about Khrushchev, Kennedy would naturally come into mind, and he expressed admiration of Kennedy.

Both he and Marina would say, "Nice young man." I never heard him say anything derogatory about Kennedy. He seemed to admire the man, because I remember they had a copy of Life magazine which was always in their living room, and it had Kennedy's picture on it, or I believe Kennedy or someone else, and he always expressed what I would interpret as admiration for Kennedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall any specific details concerning his remarks about Kennedy or the conversation that you had with him concerning Kennedy?

Mr. GREGORY. No; just that one time, as I can remember in their apartment that we did look at this picture of Kennedy, and Marina said, "He looks like a nice young man." And Lee said something, yes, he is a good leader, or something, as I remember, was a positive remark about Kennedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never expressed any adverse feelings or made any adverse remarks about President Kennedy in your presence?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of him making any such remarks in the presence of anyone else?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention Governor Connally?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear through any other source that he made any remarks about Governor Connally?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as Marina was concerned, you indicated that she too expressed a kindly feeling or a good feeling toward President Kennedy?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would that indicate to you that Oswald had probably indicated such feelings to her, since she was not able to read English or understand English?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or didn't you think about that?

Mr. GREGORY. I didn't think about it, and would not think that would be true. I couldn't answer the question.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion of Marina's ability to speak English during the time you knew her?

Mr. GREGORY. Very poor. She knew two or three words.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that true throughout the entire time you knew her?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; the very last time I ever saw her was at Robert Oswald's house and all she could say was "excuse me," because she would go sit in the corner while everyone else ate.

Mr. LIEBELER. While everybody else what?

Mr. GREGORY. Ate.

Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't eat with you when she was sitting in the corner and all the other relatives were sitting around the dinner table?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; evidently she had eaten before I got there, just in time to take them by, but every time I would go over I would ask, "What have you learned in English," and she would always say, "I haven't learned a thing." I personally gave her some vocabulary which I had used to study Russian, which she could use in the reverse manner to study English words and I assumed that would help her. I don't know if she used them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think that Marina was deceptive as to the extent to which she could understand English?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't believe so. Well, she never spoke English with me, or never attempted to speak English. She would say, "How do you do," something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Oswald's proficiency in Russian?

Mr. GREGORY. He spoke a very ungrammatical Russian with a very strong accent.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of accent?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, I can't tell you, because I am not that much of a judge. You would have to ask an expert about that. It was this poorly spoken Russian, but he was completely fluent. He understood more than I did and he could express any idea, I believe, that he wanted to in Russian. But it was heavily pronounced and he made all kinds of grammatical errors, and Marina would correct him, and he would get peeved at her for doing this. She would say you are supposed to say like this, and he would wave his hand and say, "Don't bother me."

Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated that he didn't care to have Marina correct him as far as his use of the Russian language was concerned?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with them as to why Marina did not learn English?

Mr. GREGORY. I said I thought it was kind of strange that she was not picking up anything, but her expression was that she had to stay home and she had no opportunity to speak. I did not observe any obvious attempts on Lee's part to hold back her English, but I guess there was an attempt since he would not help her himself. Evidently he didn't help her.

I knew that later on George Bouhe tried to teach her English. He would send her lessons and she would send them back and he would correct them. I don't know to what extent these lessons went on, but these lessons started after I had gone away to school.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any opportunity to judge Oswald's ability to write the Russian language? You mentioned that you had seen this one letter. Did you notice any misspelled words in it?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I did not see any letter that he had written.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was a letter that he had received?

Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't say at all. I imagine he would have quite a bit of difficulty, because I don't think he had any understanding of the grammar.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that his proficiency in Russian was particularly good, or about average for the length of time he had been in the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't judge. All I think is, he was fluent and he could read well in Russian. Probably he did have a better grammatical knowledge than I thought, because of all of the reading which I saw him do, excepting for a few books, was in Russian.

I mean, if he would sit down to read a book, he would be reading in Russian.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much did he read?

Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't say. He was always going down to the library and coming back with all kinds of books. Usually he would not read in my presence, because we would all sit around and talk. Toward the end, I was writing a paper and I needed Marina's help to correct the grammar, and we would go over to one side and work on that, and he would sit and read. He read Lenin. I can't remember which book it was, but that is the only thing I have really seen him read. And then he always spoke about his, he said, this great love of history.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see him read any books other than this book about Lenin?

Mr. GREGORY. No; it was not about, it was Lenin writings, and Lenin was all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any books that Oswald brought home from the library that you saw in his apartment?

Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember. It would have been nothing extremely interesting. I can't give any titles.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with him the nature of his love of the study of history?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I always--my opinion of him was that he was not very smart. I thought maybe he would read a lot, but not absorb it. That was my opinion of him.

He just said he always had this love of history, and he several times--one evening he went out to TCU and another time he went out to get the catalog for Arlington State to try to get some night school or something, and this evidently was a pure dream on his part, seeing he did not have the high school degree. And he always spoke that he wanted to go back to school and get a degree and study economics and history and philosophy and things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. He went out to TCU? Did he tell you that he went out to TCU?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. For what purpose, did he tell you?

Mr. GREGORY. To look for night school.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when that was?

Mr. GREGORY. It was the first time I ever went over there to have a lesson, he was gone. And he returned after, say, 15 minutes. He said he was at TCU, and he had a schedule of their classes. And another time I took and I would take them out to look at the town. One night we went to TCU, and he asked me, do you think the director of the evening classes or some official, if they would be in at this hour, because he wanted to go see, and I said, "No; I am sure no one will be there."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that he talked to any of the officials at TCU concerning the night school program?

Mr. GREGORY. No; he evidently must have talked to someone if he came back with a schedule, because I remember looking at the schedule.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he come back with the schedule before or after the occasion on which you were driving in your car to TCU?

Mr. GREGORY. No; it seems the first evening I went over there he referred to the schedule.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, it was after that that he asked you during your drive whether you thought anybody would be present at TCU?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your first Russian lesson was approximately when?

Mr. GREGORY. I would say August 10. I would hit it within a week either way. All this time I thought he had his high school degree and I was encouraging him to go back. I said, "Why don't you?" And he used as an excuse that he had to work. And he never did tell me that he did not finish high school.

Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to the statements that he may have made about his activities in Russia, did he ever indicate to you in any way that he had a source of income in the Soviet Union other than the income he received from his job at the factory?

Mr. GREGORY. No; he never did. He always spoke as if he didn't have enough money over there but he never indicated another source of income.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid for his work at the factory?

Mr. GREGORY. He told, but I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any discussions about his source of income and what he did with it? I know you cannot specifically remember the amount that he was paid.

Mr. GREGORY. No; the only discussion as to how he spent his money was the tremendous difficulty he had buying food and buying enough food. It seems to me as if the way he spoke, he spent all the money on food and he had several articles of clothing which he brought back with him, of which he seemed to be very proud.

I think he had a pair of boots or something like that, and he had a closet full of junk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever show you his boots?

Mr. GREGORY. I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about them?

Mr. GREGORY. I am not positive about the boots. I remember he had one article of clothing which he showed me; said it was made in the Soviet Union, and he seemed to be proud of it. As I remember, it was boots.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no other recollection about it than what you have just expressed?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I think a lot of his clothes were from the Soviet Union, but I can't identify the articles.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention anything about assistance he might have received from the Red Cross while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. No; the only financial spot which he mentioned to me was the money he got through the U.S. Ambassador to Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?

Mr. GREGORY. He just said he went in and told them he wanted to return, and the fellow gave him something like $300. And then after that, he spoke of his trip back. He went through Poland and East Germany.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had stayed for a time in Moscow before leaving the Soviet Union to return?

Mr. GREGORY. The only time I know of his being in Moscow was when he was there at the very first as a tourist, and that is the only time I heard him mention being in Moscow.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about any difficulties that he encountered in obtaining the necessary papers for him and Marina to return to the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. The only difficulties which I have heard are the difficulties I have already brought up about the pressure put on Marina. But as far as paperwork, I can't bring anything out specifically.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never mentioned any difficulty that he encountered with the U.S. authorities in that regard?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to the feeling he had about the U.S. officials concerning his return?

Mr. GREGORY. He mentioned that they had given this money to return.

Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned that he told you they had loaned him money to return?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I am saying he never expressed an opinion one way or the other. It seems to me that normally a person in that situation would say he was very glad they gave him the money. He seemed to expect this money as if it was something that was due him, and he never expressed any gratitude toward the Ambassador or whoever it was that gave him the money.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any resentment toward any of the Government officials concerning his return?

Mr. GREGORY. Completely neutral.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether or not he returned the money to the State Department?

Mr. GREGORY. No; he never told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion either from your discussions with Oswald as to whether or not Oswald was well liked in the Soviet Union, and accepted by the people in the community in which he lived?

Mr. GREGORY. As I said before, it seems to me as he was treated as an outsider, and the only two people I ever heard him speak of were the two I mentioned besides Marina. Evidently Marina was a special case, that she did pay attention to him.

He evidently must have been fairly militant over there, or fairly, could I say not friendly, because he told me of one instance where the fellows at the factory were studying night course in English or something, and they came to him and wanted him to help them, and he helped them once or twice, but then he came to the conclusion they were lazy and he threw them out and told them he didn't want to help them any more. Evidently, he wasn't too friendly over there, so I doubt if he had too many acquaintances.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all he told you about the incident when the fellow factory workers were trying to learn English?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; and I think one fellow, Pavel, he came to Lee to help him with his English and he said this fellow was a good student, and he evidently gave him quite a bit of help.

Mr. LIEBELER. Lee gave quite a bit of help to Pavel and Pavel was trying to learn English?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; but the other fellows he thought were lazy and refused to pay attention.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate whether Pavel gave him any assistance in learning Russian?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or whether he received any other training in the Russian language while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. The only thing he said he learned in the factory when he went over there, he said he didn't know anything, and when they just stuck him in a factory, he said he picked it up there, and Marina helped him quite a bit.

Marina told me that Lee's Russian when I was with him was bad compared to the Russian Lee spoke while he was in the Soviet Union.

In fact, I have Lee's dictionary which he gave me. He gave me his Russian dictionary and he told me, "I don't need it any more," and therefore he gave me the dictionary.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have that at the present time?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that, in Norman?

Mr. GREGORY. In Norman; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I wonder if you would make that available to us?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I looked through it to see if there is any writing and there is no writing. There is something, he wrote a name up there or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you would make it available to us, we would appreciate it. We will have somebody from the Secret Service or FBI contact you in Norman and obtain it, or if you want to mail it to us at the Commission. How do you want to handle it?

Mr. GREGORY. Either way.

Mr. LIEBELER. We will have somebody from the Secret Service.

Mr. GREGORY. I don't know of any writing.

Mr. LIEBELER. We will make arrangements for someone to pick it up and we will eventually return it to you.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; okay. I have a card also which he sent me, if you are interested, which was written to inform me a change of address to Dallas, which was dated on November 1, approximately, 1962. Those are the only two things I have that belonged to him or were from him.

Mr. LIEBELER. We would like the card too, if you would make that available.

Mr. GREGORY. All right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention anything to you about hunting trips that he went on while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention any access that he might have had to firearms?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion, or did Marina tell you anything that would indicate the reason why Marina seemed to take a special interest in Oswald, or seemed to be a special case, I think you used that terminology?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I could tell you--this is a personal opinion--but evidently she was kind of a rebel or nonconformist herself, and she met quite a bit of opposition because she did see Lee. And I am not sure, but I believe her family gave her quite a bit of trouble about that, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any specific situation that she may have said about that?

Mr. GREGORY. All I know is that when she returned--she said she had written her relatives--she had an uncle and aunt and sister, and they refused to answer, and she never received an answer from them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you infer from that that they gave her difficulty in connection with her marriage to Lee Oswald, or that they disapproved her decision to come to the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. I assume it was both. It is an assumption on my part.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina never indicated specifically any difficulty that she had with her relatives?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion, or did Marina ever indicate to you that possibly she married Oswald to get out of the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you never formed that opinion?

Mr. GREGORY. I never formed that opinion. She seemed quite interested and quite enthusiastic about a new life in America, and she seemed to me that she wanted to take part in it, but she got over here and it was, she was just in one room and never got out, and she always kept saying, "When I learn English, it will be different."

She always expressed a desire to learn English, and, "Do you think I will ever be able to learn it?" And I said, "Yes." And she seemed quite enthusiastic about America.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think it was strange that she seemed interested to learn English but apparently made no attempt to learn it? Did you discuss that with her at all?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I would always ask her, "What have you learned," and she would say "Nothing." And I said, "Well--" we really never went into it completely why she hadn't. I just assumed that either she didn't want to or else she really didn't have the opportunity to get out, or I can't answer specifically.

Mr. LIEBELER. She never indicated a desire to you that you should help her learn English in connection with her attempt to teach you Russian or to improve your Russian?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald the reason, or with Marina, for that matter, the reason why Oswald decided to leave the Soviet Union and return to the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, let's see, I have brought up why he was dissatisfied. Well, of course, he didn't get enough food. That seemed to be one of his major things.

And evidently he lived fairly poorly over there. Then I am sure he went over there thinking this would be the heaven on earth, the workers' paradise, and he quickly found out that wasn't so. This might be a personal judgment on my part, but I think he felt that they are making a mess of things over there. Maybe he did believe in communistic principles which I don't believe he understood if he believed in them. But he felt that the present administration like the party boys and the people in power were just making a mess of things, that they didn't know what they were doing. He felt like, he said they were opportunistic. No; he never came out and said, "I left because so-and-so and so-and-so."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate a desire to have his children raised in the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember if he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told us a moment ago that Oswald at one point told you how he had left the Soviet Union and gone through Poland and East Germany. I would like you to tell us everything you can remember about that.

Mr. GREGORY. I really can't remember anything specifically. I just asked him how he came out, and he said he was on the train, and something or other happened in Poland, I didn't quite understand it, where there was some incident in Poland where they bought something, or some person sold them something black market and--I can't remember it, but they never gave me a travellogue of their trip out of the Soviet Union.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he eventually went to some point in Holland and boarded a ship and came back to New York?

Mr. GREGORY. He did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection about that other than what I have just stated?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he got from his landing point in the United States to Texas?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he landed in the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know that now?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate any dissatisfaction with the conditions here in the United States other than the ones that you previously indicated that he expressed? That is, that everyone seemed to be concerned about making money? Did he ever indicate that he thought particular institutions ought to be changed in any way?

Mr. GREGORY. No; his only objection that he ever voiced to me was about the money everyone was out for themselves, and evidently he never had much money, and I guess he felt persecuted on account of this. I remember one evening I gave him a tour of the town, and I took them to, you know, drove by all the big mansions. I figured they would be interested in seeing that, and it seems like there if he would really have any strong feelings, they would have come out then.

He said something about how horrible it is that here people are living in these big mansions, and I think just before that we had seen a bad part of town where the colored people lived, but he made no comment there. I think he just said, "Well, I never want to be rich like that."

Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated no particular animosity toward people of wealth and position?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to his experience in the Soviet Union, did he ever tell you that he had ever been in the hospital there?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any of the details about his marriage to Marina, as to any difficulties they experienced in getting permission to become married, or anything of that nature?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't think so. As I remember, it happened quite fast. I believe they were married 2 or 3 weeks after they met.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that he ever told you about his experiences in the Soviet Union that we haven't already covered?

Mr. GREGORY. Not at the moment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss any subject concerning Russian military movements or the presence of troops, concentration of equipment, aircraft and that sort of thing?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Never mentioned it at all?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told us before that you held a bachelor degree from Oklahoma University and that you majored in economics?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss economics with Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. I never discussed it with him because I don't think he knew anything about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the subject ever come up between you?

Mr. GREGORY. He would always say that is my great love, history and economics.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about it? I am interested in this, because I gained the impression from others that he didn't know very much about it. In my opinion you probably do know more about it than most of the men that I talked to, so I would like to have you tell us as much as you can.

Mr. GREGORY. He never said anything, and that is the reason I got the impression he didn't know anything about it, because if he knew, he would want to talk about it. I never approached the subject because he seemed to not want to get into it. I thought from an interview with him, when they were having all this on TV, that they asked him a question, something about comparative economics, and he gave some kind of stupid answer and more or less confirmed my opinion that he didn't know too much about it. But we never did have a specific discussion about economics.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald any contacts between him and agents of the Soviet Government in connection with any attempt on their part to recruit him as an intelligence agent or as open activity of the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss it with anybody else?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you that Oswald might be an agent of the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I was always fairly positive that he wasn't, because I figured that if the Soviets wanted to get someone, they could get someone a lot more reliable. They would have a lot more sense than to get him, because I think he was, personally had a bad temper, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, he would always, he never really didn't get mad, but he would--I never did figure out if he and Marina were arguing or just talking, but he would always shout, and I remember one evening that we went out, were going to the grocery store, and Marina had June in her arms and she stepped over and fell off the porch, and boy he got mad. You know, the baby fell on the ground. He really got mad. And that was the only time I ever saw him real mad. I guess maybe he had reason to be mad, because Marina had dropped the child.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she fall out of her arms?

Mr. GREGORY. They both fell. She hurt her back. I thought she had.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he do?

Mr. GREGORY. He went over and picked up the baby.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then what did he say?

Mr. GREGORY. He got real mad, and then they ran in and they had the medical book written in Russian about baby care, and they went through it and I think the baby had a cut on its head, and Marina had a cut on her knee or something, and everything quieted down and we went out again, but it was a real hot moment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that you noted, is there any other reason why you said you thought he had a bad temper?

Mr. GREGORY. I heard afterward, after the last time I saw him, I heard reports about him beating her, from the Dallas acquaintances.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw any evidence of that yourself?

Mr. GREGORY. No. One time I went over and she had a black eye. At this time I had no suspicion, that--but possibly I never asked her where did you get the black eye.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you never had any reason to think that----

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. That he had been mistreating her, based on your own experience?

Mr. GREGORY. Later when I heard about this in Dallas, well I thought maybe it could have happened back there then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any other reasons on which you base your opinion that he had a bad temper?

Mr. GREGORY. No, just personal judgment. He seemed to be a small person that is always ready to flare up. We always had very good relations. We were very friendly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that you think he had a bad temper, is there any other reason why you think the Soviets would not recruit him as an agent?

Mr. GREGORY. As I say again, I don't think he was very smart.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any other reasons?

Mr. GREGORY. No. Then, of course, his animosity which he expressed toward the Soviet.

Mr. LIEBELER. Towards the members of the Communist Party?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. He didn't quite enjoy life over there, and it just didn't enter my mind that he could have been.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever enter your mind?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is only after the assassination that you considered this question; is that correct?

Mr. GREGORY. Even then I never considered it seriously.

Mr. LIEBELER. But my question is: When did you consider it at all?

Mr. GREGORY. Only after, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. After?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I think this might be important. More or less his philosophy, which I think came out, is that at the time I was interested in going and studying in the Soviet Union in our exchange program. We have an exchange where our University sends over students and they send over to ours, and I was interested in seeing how it was, how life would be, see if it would be too hard, and he says, he told me, "Just go over there. Don't get on a waiting list. You will never get there."

He said, "If you want to do something, go ahead and do it. You will get involved in red tape." And I think that was possibly the way he thought about everything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form an impression of Oswald, based on your association with him, form an opinion prior to the time of the assassination that he was mentally unstable, too, in any way?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not? He did not appear to be that to you?

Mr. GREGORY. Let's say, I wouldn't classify him as--evidently he was, but at the time I didn't think he was. I just thought he was, as I say, fairly hot tempered and not extremely brilliant.

But I never did think of him as mentally deranged. Maybe I saw him mixed up. He must have been mixed up to do what he did, as far as the assassination, but just going over to the Soviet Union----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider this question prior to the assassination? The question is, tell us in your own words what opinion you formed of Oswald and what you thought about him at the time you knew him in 1962?

Mr. GREGORY. I never minded him. I always enjoyed being with him. I enjoyed Marina more than Lee. She was a very pleasant person, very pleasant to be with, interesting. I can't say that I disliked Lee. He had bad qualities, but I mean, when we were together, I think he more or less put on his best front, because I think he considered me someone he could talk to. Because I think he considered other people beneath him, and he thought that everyone was judging him.

I think he felt that his brother--this is a personal opinion--that they were sort of taking him in out of the goodness of their hearts.

And I never expressed any judgment on it or even asked him or faced the matter as to why he had done what he did. Therefore, our relations were always good. But still I classified him as hot tempered, not very smart, and slightly mixed up. And I am sure about a good many other examples, but I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you are saying not very smart, are you talking about what your impression of what his intelligence or what his level of education?

Mr. GREGORY. I am thinking of academic sense, inability to grasp things.

Mr. LIEBELER. Basically a function of his IQ rather than his formal education?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you ever interested in his formal education, or make any inquiries on that?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I was interested in it as to whether he finished high school, and that he had expressed to me desire to go on in higher education.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have already covered that.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you, or did you ever form the opinion, that he was capable of violent acts?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I didn't think he was. I would say maybe I could only picture him getting into a fight or something. Judging from the type of person he was, if someone would insult him, I think he would get into a fight, but as far as the major violent act, I couldn't picture him doing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider that question prior to the time of the assassination?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. It just never occurred to you?

Mr. GREGORY. No. Just an automatic judgment like I make, a general judgment about all people, I figured he was the type person, if you go downtown with him and someone would say, would insult him, he would probably get into a fight or something like that. That is just my general judgment of him. He never did in my presence, or nothing ever happened. It is just a general judgment.

Mr. LIEBELER. The kind of judgment you would make about many people, is it not?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. There never was anything peculiar about Oswald that caused you to form a peculiar judgment about him or think he was peculiar in any way?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he was the kind that easily flared up, although he never did it in your presence, he was the type that would, and you did think that about Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. But as far as any violence, I couldn't picture him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that the world situation was not due to the people in the world, but was caused by the leaders in the various countries?

Mr. GREGORY. I think so. Once or twice he made that exact statement, and I can't remember if it was Marina or Lee. That is the exact words.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that translated into any animosity against the leaders of the two countries, either Khrushchev or Kennedy?

Mr. GREGORY. I could not say. I would not think so, because of what I have already said about the fact that Lee had expressed admiration of Khrushchev and had expressed that positive feeling toward Kennedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now that I have called to your attention and you recall that either Lee or Marina did make a remark about the world troubles being caused by the leaders and not the people, does that cause you to reflect on your prior testimony?