Chapter XIX: Part 19

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any opinion with respect to Governor Connally?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never had a word about it. You see, I was not familiar with the fact that he did have a dishonorable discharge.

Mr. JENNER. That is another subject.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You were not familiar with that at all? It was never discussed?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was only in the papers that I read after the assassination that I read in the papers that he had a dishonorable discharge. I assumed that he had an honorable discharge. I assumed that.

Mr. JENNER. There was never any discussion in the Russian colony on the subject that he had not had an honorable discharge?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. I do not recall. But I was again probing in my mind whether I heard anything about this dishonorable discharge or not.

Mr. JENNER. As you are sitting there, you are probing your mind?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, my mind, thinking about it, now you know, and it is impossible to say because I read in the paper that he had a dishonorable discharge, after the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. And you don't want to rationalize?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not want to.

Mr. JENNER. Now let us turn to the party at the Glovers.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You were acquainted with Mr. Glover, were you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Everett Glover?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everett Glover.

Mr. JENNER. Who is Everett Glover?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everett Glover is a chemist at Magnolia Laboratories, Standard Oil of New York Research Laboratories.

Mr. JENNER. Now, had Everett Glover met the Oswalds prior to this party at his home?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He might have, I don't recall. He might have met them, either Marina or both of them, for a short time.

Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection on that subject?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife may remember this more distinctly.

Mr. JENNER. But have you exhausted your recollection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Does this serve to refresh your recollection?

Mr. Glover has stated that he had met Marina previously.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At your home several times?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be; yes.

Mr. JENNER. It could be?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And had been invited to your home several times because she was a Russian-speaking person who was having marital difficulties with Lee Oswald?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, very possible. Now I recall even this, since you mention this. I suggested that they might live with Everett Glover, this couple.

Mr. JENNER. You made a suggestion?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. To whom?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To Glover. "You have an empty house. Why don't you let them live with you and pay you so much per month?" And I think he declined that.

Mr. JENNER. He did organize this party, however?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Who? Everett?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now he says it was on February 23, 19----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1963.

Mr. JENNER. 1963?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is about it.

Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was placing it around January or February; at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attend that party?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; as far as I remember, I did.

Mr. JENNER. And Jeanne as well?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Who else was there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. At this party was a lot of friends of Everett Glover's whose names I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. Volkmar Schmidt?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; definitely. We called him Messer Schmidt. He is a German; very intelligent, young Ph. D. in sociology who also works at the same laboratory as Everett Glover.

Mr. JENNER. Magnolia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Magnolia Laboratory.

Mr. JENNER. And was living with Glover at that time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Was living with Glover at the time, I think.

Mr. JENNER. He was present?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He is a bachelor?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A bachelor.

Mr. JENNER. And who else?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we invited our neighbors, Mrs. Fox who lived right next door to us, to that party.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Fox?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What is her first name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mary Fox.

Mr. JENNER. What is her husband's name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is a widow, I think, but it might have been a different party, but I have the impression that she was there.

Mr. JENNER. Anybody else?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we invited our landlord also.

Mr. JENNER. Who is your landlord?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I forgot his name. Anyway he is my landlord. I forgot his name. My wife has a better memory of names.

Mr. JENNER. Anybody else that you recall?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And Ruth Paine.

Mr. JENNER. Ruth Paine?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you ever met Ruth Paine before?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think that was the first time we met Ruth Paine.

Mr. JENNER. You have never been in any singing groups with her?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Of which she was a member?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no.

Mr. JENNER. You did engage in some singing groups, did you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but a different type of singing. I was engaged only in the church choir singing and I think she engaged in some sort of classical music singing.

Mr. JENNER. Madrigal?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I beg your pardon?

Mr. JENNER. Madrigal?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Madrigal; that is right. There is a group in Dallas to which Everett Glover belongs, you know, who I think spent some time singing in the madrigal.

Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection now as to everybody who was present?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were quite a lot of people there, but if you mention the names I will say yes or no.

Mr. JENNER. I want you to exhaust your recollection first.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not so sure. I think my daughter was there.

Mr. JENNER. Alex?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Alex. I don't remember if Gary was there.

Mr. JENNER. That is her husband?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her husband.

You see, we showed our movie quite a few times.

Mr. JENNER. Did you show it that night?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we showed the movie that night.

Mr. JENNER. Were Mr. and Mrs. Norman Fredricksen present?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That name is familiar to me but I couldn't identify them.

Mr. JENNER. Were these people interested in meeting the Oswalds?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think Oswald mentioned to me--Glover mentioned to me that Mrs. Paine was a student of the Russian language, that she would like to meet somebody with whom she could practice. That is my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Did the people engage in conversation with both of the Oswalds?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were surrounded by the whole group. I do not recall what happened, because I was busy making the description of our trip while the movie was being shown. That movie, by the way, did not interest Oswald at all. He was not interested.

Mr. JENNER. The Mexican trip movie?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he was not interested. Neither Marina nor Oswald were interested.

Mr. JENNER. Neither one?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Why was that, do you think?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were not the outdoor-type people who would appreciate that sort of thing, not sufficiently outdoor-type people, not sufficiently sophisticated to appreciate that sort of a thing. At least that was my impression.

Mr. JENNER. Did any of these people inquire of Oswald as to his life in Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. I think after the movie there was quite an animated discussion there asking many questions and many answering. He was there very happy you see, because he loved to be asked questions. He loved to be the center of attention, and he definitely was the center of attention that night.

Mr. JENNER. That night. What about Marina?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know that she couldn't speak English.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. There were people there who could speak Russian, weren't there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she was talking mainly to Mrs. Paine, and I noticed immediately that there was another nice relationship developed there between Mrs. Paine and Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have some acquaintance with Mrs. Paine afterward; you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never saw them again. Never saw them again as far as I remember. That in my recollection was the only time I saw her. I remember her distinctly because she is a very interesting and attractive person.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a Richard Pierce and a Miss Betty MacDonald attending that party?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember now Betty MacDonald. I don't remember whether she was at the party but I think she was the librarian at the Magnolia Research Laboratory.

Mr. Pierce is another friend of Everett's who also works at Magnolia, who eventually became his roommate, or maybe he was already a roommate at the time. I think he became a roommate later on.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred at that meeting that you think might be significant that you would like to tell us about?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I really do not remember anything significant.

Mr. JENNER. Did you remain throughout the whole evening, or did you leave before the party was over?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you did not bring the Oswalds to that meeting?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall either. I think they possibly have come by themselves. Maybe somebody else brought them. Maybe, Everett brought them.

Mr. JENNER. Either that or Everett?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; somebody else might have.

Mr. JENNER. It was not your party?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. You assisted him, however, in arranging it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything said at that meeting with respect to their eliciting from Oswald his views with respect to Russia, and in particular the former government in Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I remember quite a vivid discussion going on, you know, because all those people are highly intelligent, and, very intellectual group of people interested in what goes on in the world, and as far as I know none of them has ever seen a Russian, and it was just like a new specimen of humanity, you see, that appeared in front of them, both Marina and Oswald, an American but who had been to Russia. But I don't remember any particular discussion or disagreement or agreement. I think probably Oswald was talking most of the time.

Mr. JENNER. Oswald was pretty proud, was he, of his ability to speak Russian?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was proud of it, yes; because it is quite an achievement for a man with a poor scholastic background to have learned the language. It is surprising to me. It was an extraordinary surprise for my wife and myself that he was able to learn to speak it so well for such a short time as he was supposed to have stayed in Russia. As I understand it, he stayed there some 2 years, I gather.

Mr. JENNER. That is all.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And it is amazing.

Mr. JENNER. In speaking of that, as I recall, you noted he had a conversational command of the language.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But that he did not speak a refined Russian.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; not a refined Russian.

Mr. JENNER. He had trouble with his grammar?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when you knew them in which Marina would correct his grammar and there would be an altercation between them or something?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; there was bickering all the time. There was bickering all the time. I don't remember whether it was especially on the point of grammar, but there was bickering between them all the time.

But as I said before, the bickering was mainly because Marina smoked and he didn't approve of it, that she liked to drink and he did not approve of it. I think she liked to put the makeup on and he didn't let her use the makeup. My wife will explain a little bit more in detail what was going on between them, you see, because she was a confidante of Marina's, you see. I was not.

Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate, please?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my wife being a woman was interested in a woman's problems, you see, Marina's, in the baby and in her makeup, in the way she dressed and the way she behaved, you see. She tried to correct her manners, correct, teach her how to be a human being, you see, which Marina did not know very well. She was doing her best to learn. She wanted to, but she really had a very poor background, you see.

Mr. JENNER. You made a comment that you just said your wife had confidence in Marina, but you didn't. What did you mean by that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Confidence from what point of view?

Mr. JENNER. I don't know.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I mentioned that because I don't like a woman who bitches at her husband all the time, and she did, you know. She annoyed him. She bickered. She brought the worst out in him. And she told us after they would get a fight, you know, that he was fighting also. She would scratch him also.

Mr. JENNER. She would scratch him?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She would scratch him also.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the time?

I will put the question this way in order to draw on your recollection, rather than mine.

There was an occasion, was there not, that Marina left Lee by herself?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Without being taken?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have a recollection of that.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. When did it occur?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember when it occurred.

Mr. JENNER. Does October 1963 refresh your recollection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, but that was the period when we were very busy with our cystic fibrosis campaign.

I do recall that one day I was in Fort Worth and I decided to come to see Mrs. Hall, with whom Marina was staying.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the fact that Marina was at Mrs. Hall's?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of how she had gotten there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall how it happened, but I was aware, somebody told me that, that she was staying at Mrs. Hall's.

Mr. JENNER. The Halls were separated at that time, were they not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and Mrs. Hall had the boy friend who was a friend of mine.

Mr. JENNER. What was his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A long name, German name, but he was of Polish extraction. He was in the plastic business. Now, his name, Doctor--he worked for some plastic company in Fort Worth. Kleinlerer, Alex Kleinlerer. That is the name.

Well, I had a very hard time finding the house where Mrs. Hall lived. I think Mr. Clark told me. That is probably it.

Mr. JENNER. Max Clark.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Max Clark probably told me that Marina is there.

Mr. JENNER. Is that 4760 Trail Lake Drive?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Trail Lake Drive. That is the place. And I drove over and here was Marina, Mrs. Hall and Alex Kleinlerer. I don't remember what we were talking about, what we discussed at that time. It was a friendly visit to say how are you.

Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, was that this was an occasion when Marina had left her husband?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And come to the Halls?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That is, it is an occasion distinct from the one in which you took Marina?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Away from her husband. And this occasion we are now talking about at the Halls occurred subsequently to the time that you had taken her to the Mellers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think it was after our taking her away to the Mellers.

Mr. JENNER. When you arrived there, what did you discuss in respect to why Marina was there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think I was discussing, I was talking to Alex Kleinlerer and to Mrs. Hall.

Yes; something vaguely comes to my mind that Mrs. Hall was saying that Marina should leave their place.

Mr. JENNER. Should leave the Halls?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Should leave the Halls. The husband is coming back or something like that, something to that effect.

Mr. JENNER. Her husband is returning?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; something to that effect.

Mr. JENNER. And did Marina leave?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. You don't recall that she then went somewhere else?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall. If you could refresh my memory I may remember better. Again, I want to underline that all this is history for me, you see.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, and I must avoid trying to put things in your mind also.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which is what I am attempting to do.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. As I remember, take Mrs. Hall--yes; I remember what we were talking about.

Mrs. Hall had had an accident, and she had either a broken leg or a broken arm, something like that, and she was in a cast. That is it. So we were talking about the accident most of the time, you see, what happened.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a fact.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she had an accident. I remember now.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion or do you have any opinion with respect to Marina's religious belief, whether she had any, any religious feeling?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I had a vague impression--I don't remember because I do not discuss religion too often--that she had religious beliefs of some sort, you see. She was a Greek Orthodox and did have some sort of religious belief.

Mr. JENNER. What about Lee, on the other hand?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lee, I think religion did not exist for him.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't believe in God?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. God, I don't know, because I didn't ask him a straight forward question, but I know that he did not believe in any organized religion. That is for sure. But he never was militantly against religion as far as I remember.

Mr. JENNER. But you have no recollection of any discussions or any impression on your part about Marina going back to Russia at any time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely goes on in my head.

Mr. JENNER. Oswald trying to get her to return to Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely goes on in my mind, but I do not recall. Very possible, you see, that something was mentioned like that. I didn't pay any attention, in other words.

Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald express views with respect to individual liberty and freedom of the press?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think he understood the freedom of the press, and individual liberties. I think he was too stupid to understand the advantages we have of the free press and the free speech. Not too stupid, I mean, but too uneducated to understand the great advantages we have in free press and free discussion and in individual freedoms.

Like many native-born Americans, he did not appreciate the advantages you get in this country, you see. You have to be a foreigner to appreciate it a little bit more. Many Russians, all the Russian refugees appreciate that, you see, but many who are born here don't appreciate it. Not all of them.

Mr. JENNER. What about Marina and her politics?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina was definitely more appreciative of life in the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Was she inclined to discuss politics?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not too much; no. That was Lee's main point, you see, to discuss politics.

Mr. JENNER. What was her attitude toward Lee's views in that respect?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She more or less considered him a crackpot, as far as I remember, you see. A few times she said, "Oh, that crazy lunatic. Again he is talking about politics."

This is one of the reasons we liked her, because that was a very intelligent attitude, you see, but it was very annoying to Lee.

Mr. JENNER. That was another source of annoyance between them?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; there were so many sources of annoyance, as you know, that it was just an unhappy marriage.

Mr. JENNER. You have stated at one time Oswald gave you something to read that he had written.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't remember at what particular time, but he gave me to read his typewritten memoirs of his stay in Minsk.

Mr. JENNER. Was it in the form of a diary?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, more or less the form of a diary, not day by day, but just impressions. And as far as I remember, I read through these typewritten pages, I don't remember how many of them there were, and made comments on it, you see. But I don't think they were fit for publication.

Mr. JENNER. Were they political in nature?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not political in nature, but there was nothing particularly interesting to an average person to read. It was just a description of life in a factory in Minsk. Not terribly badly written, not particularly well.

Mr. JENNER. Not good, not bad?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not good, not bad. Nothing that I really remember too well. I don't remember too well what was written there.

Mr. JENNER. I will show the witness pages 220 through 244, Commission Document No. 206. Would you glance through those pages and tell me if it has the material he showed you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember seeing that beginning.

Mr. JENNER. Let's get over to the area in Minsk.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is not at all familiar to me.

Mr. JENNER. The witness is now looking at page 232.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Starting here at the bottom of page 232 it looks familiar to me. How many mistakes he makes here, it is terrible. It does not look familiar to me. I think it was something else that he showed me. I do not recall that. That I definitely do not remember.

Mr. JENNER. What?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would have remembered that sentence, you know.

Mr. JENNER. You are now on page 235:

"I am having a light affair with Nell Korobka."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would have remembered something like that, you see. Again another sentence I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. "My conquest of Anna Tachina, a girl from Riga."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Do you want me to glance through that? It does not look like the same document.

Mr. JENNER. If it is not the same document----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think it is the same document.

Mr. JENNER. Now I will have the witness look at pages 247 through 301. This is a composition entitled "The Collective" and "Minsk, Russia," with a foreword, an autobiographical sketch of Oswald.

I will direct your attention to some of these headings, "Description of Radio Factory," "Quota Conditions," "Description of TV Shop," "Background of Shops," "Individual Workers," "Controls of Collectives," "Demonstrations in Meetings," "Factory Makeup," and "Peoples," "Layout of City of Minsk," "Tourist Permits and Tourist Passports," "Collective Farms and Schools, Vacations."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember this document, but I think I remember something, "Layout of City of Minsk," because that would have attracted my attention.

Mr. JENNER. All right, let's find that spot.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That looks familiar to me.

Mr. JENNER. First there is a heading, "About the Author." I call your attention to a statement which says, "Exotic journeys on his part to Japan and the Philippines and the scores of odd islands in the Pacific." Did he ever discuss that with you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. He was at Subic Bay in the Philippines?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember him mentioning that to me.

Mr. JENNER. Now the witness is looking at part 1, which is on page 248.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this looks slightly, vaguely familiar, starting from page 248. That looks vaguely familiar. I am not going to read all this because it looks very boring to me. I mean it is something that doesn't interest me. It looks vaguely familiar.

Mr. JENNER. Does it also refresh your recollection of discussions you had with him before his life in Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That looks familiar to me.

Mr. JENNER. This whole division?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This whole division looks familiar to me. As I said before, I did not look carefully when I originally saw this document, and I think this is the same one, because it looks familiar to me.

I just glanced through. I realized that it is not fit for publication. You can see it right away. Who is interested to read about comrade this and comrade that, you see?

But it is a factual, it seems like a factual report on his conditions of life of a worker.

Mr. JENNER. It is horrible grammar.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Horrible grammar.

Mr. JENNER. And horrible spelling.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But it could be reworked by somebody?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Let's get to the next division here.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Here is something that I remember we discussed.

Mr. JENNER. You are now at page 262.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think here he talks about those meetings.

Mr. JENNER. That he did not like?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That he did not like.

Do I have to read that? Frankly, it is very----

Mr. JENNER. No; you don't. We are trying to find out whether this is the paper he showed you.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Here is something.

Mr. JENNER. I now direct your attention to page 269.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is something that is much more familiar to me because I was interested in the town itself.

Mr. JENNER. And this is the paragraph beginning, "The reconstruction of Minsk is on an interesting story reflecting the courage of its builders."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that was something that interested me because I lived in my childhood in this town and I remembered some of the buildings. I remember asking Oswald about what happened to this street and that street, you see. But I forgot the names. I just described them. What happened to this street and that street?

He gave me some sort of an answer that now it is full of big buildings, you see, and I remember it as being full of small provincial houses, you see. And again I cannot swear to the fact that that is the same paper I saw.

Mr. JENNER. But this seems to you more familiar?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. More familiar maybe because I paid more attention to the city than I paid to something else.

Mr. JENNER. This is quite a long diatribe.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It couldn't be the same document because that wasn't as long as that.

Mr. JENNER. It was not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. I now exhibit to the witness a series of five untitled compositions on political subjects appearing in the same exhibit I have already identified, the first of which is at page 304.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is definitely not familiar to me.

Mr. JENNER. And runs through page 309.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am just glancing through but it doesn't look familiar to me. Maybe I just didn't pay any attention.

Mr. JENNER. The next commences on page 310 and runs through to page 312. It is a short one.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that doesn't look familiar to me.

Mr. JENNER. The next commences at page 313 and concludes at page 315.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It does not look familiar to me. As I said before, I have the impression that the pages he showed me were only about the city of Minsk and the TV factory there, but not about his life.

Mr. JENNER. Were they typewritten or in longhand?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Typewritten.

Mr. JENNER. The balance is on pages 318 through 329. Would you glance through those, please?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, that is definitely nothing that I have seen before, because it has the name of General Walker in it.

Mr. JENNER. And you had not seen it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I had not seen it. Now, the publication, not the publication, the document I saw was, as far as I remember, not political, but a very simple account of his life in Minsk, and in the TV factory.

Mr. JENNER. I think we had better call Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and tell her----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That she is ready for action?

Mr. JENNER. No; that we are going to run you well into the afternoon. I have got a couple more pages of notes here. Maybe around 3:30 will be closer.

If you think it would be better to release her for the afternoon or find out where she is going to be.

(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

The proceeding was reconvened at 2 p.m.

Mr. JENNER. As I recall, yesterday you testified your recollection was that early in your acquaintance with the Oswalds, you approached Sam Ballen to see if he could undertake or might be able to employ Oswald.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection in that regard, Mr. Ballen says his recollection is that he first met Lee in December 1962 or January 1963 at your home.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be.

Mr. JENNER. And he was aware that you had approached Mr. Ballen's wife and other people to assist the Oswalds, and also to have them out socially.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You did do that, did you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I don't remember whether I asked the Ballens to invite them, but I did ask some other people to invite them, because they were so lonesome. And maybe fortunately for them, they refused.

I remember I asked a physicist to invite them in Dallas, and they just refused. He said, "I don't know those people. I don't want to have anything to do with them."

Mr. JENNER. His recollection is about 10 days after he met them at your home, you called him and asked if he might be able to employ him, or might be helpful in his obtaining a job.

Does that stimulate your recollection that the events you mentioned yesterday occurred probably in December 1962 or January 1963--that is, the event regarding your effort to induce Mr. Ballen?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--it should be probably at that time, because--I had the impression that it was earlier than that--when he was moving from Fort Worth to Dallas, at the very beginning. I still have the impression. Because that is where I was interested, to help them, you see.

I did not know that he lost his job with the other company. I didn't know that.

All this is later, after we had already gone.

So I have the impression that maybe he confused the time. It seems to me that I asked him at the very beginning when I met the Oswalds, when he lost his first job in Fort Worth and was trying to move to Dallas--that was the time.

Mr. JENNER. He lost his job at Leslie Welding Co.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I don't know the name of that company, but it was some welding outfit.

Mr. JENNER. Sheetmetal work.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, that is right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the period when Marina stayed at the Fords, in November?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When she stayed at the Fords?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the time when we took Marina and the child away from Lee and put her in the house of Mellers, and then the Mellers asked Mrs. Ford to take her. I think that was the time.

And then, later on, the Fords asked Mrs. Ray to take Marina. She moved from one place to another--three times, as far as I remember, she changed domiciles.

And finally returned to Lee.

Mr. JENNER. You remember this event you related yesterday, when you took Marina from the home?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As having occurred----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In September.

I have the impression it was in September. But it is, again, only a recollection, because I remember that it was a very hot day--very sunny, hot day. So it could be in October. And also in October we started working on this campaign, cystic fibrosis campaign, and were very busy.

But it might have been in October.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Ford's recollection is that Marina was at her home--she came there on November 11, and left on November 17.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be that.

Mr. JENNER. And this is while Marina was separated temporarily from her husband?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Unless she had been twice at her home. I think she was only once at her home. There were three homes--once at Mellers, the Fords, and the third at the Rays, one after another, in succession.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this is apparently part of that series of changes she made when she left, herself--that is, this was not an occasion when you took her?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think that is the occasion we took her--we took her to the Mellers, and then she moved from them by herself--that we had no knowledge of. How she moved or who took her from one house to another, I do not know.

Mr. JENNER. You have a recollection there were two periods--one period that you are talking about when you took her from the home, and then another period when she left the home, herself?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That could be, very easily. But then it would fit very well in my schedule--that would have been the second time--because, at that time, we were not seeing the Oswalds. We were busy on something else, Jeanne was working both in the store and at the foundation, I was preparing my project, and we were very busy, and didn't see anybody, practically, and especially the Oswalds.

October, November; I don't think we saw them at all in October, November, December.

Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you about Betty MacDonald this morning, as to whether she was at that February 1963 party?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I think that is the librarian. The name MacDonald sounds familiar to me. Is she Pierce's fiance? That is how I remember her.

Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to get these two events. Marina recalls when they lived on Elsbeth Street she had a dispute with Lee, and--about her Russian friends, in which he said, "Well, if you like your friends so much, then go ahead and live with them."

And she said that left her no choice, so she got in a cab and went over to Anna Meller's house with the baby.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, that is how she described it.

Mr. JENNER. She was there a week.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the second time? What month was it?

Mr. JENNER. I don't know.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we took her there. But maybe she went there for the second time, you see.

Mr. JENNER. Well, she may have forgotten you took her.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; maybe she forgot it. You know, we took all the furniture also. I could not forget that--because my car was loaded. You could practically feel the ground. I still have the same car in Haiti today.

We had a tremendous load in our car. It took us the whole day to load and unload and carry them.

Mr. JENNER. Now, she voiced the opinion that--she said Lee liked you.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am sorry that he did, but, obviously he did.

Mr. JENNER. She said because you were a strong person. She is expressing her opinion now, of course. But he only liked you among all this group. He disliked Bouhe, he disliked Anna Meller.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I am surprised, because Bouhe is very--a person that you can like or dislike immediately. As to Mrs. Meller, I am surprised, because she is very kind and a nice person.

Mr. JENNER. Well, this is Lee Oswald. That could possibly arise out of the fact that Anna Meller befriended her when she left the household.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. I don't know what the reason was.

But you have confirmed the fact that he didn't care for the people in the Russian colony.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did not have any friends, you see. Maybe he identified me not as a Russian, because I have not much Russian blood in me anyway. Maybe he identified me as some sort of an internationalist, American.

Mr. JENNER. Maybe you are.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think of other friends that he had. I cannot recall, myself, a friend of his, actually. I could not say that. He could be my son in age, you see. He is just a kid for me, with whom I played around. Sometimes I was curious to see what went on in his head.

But I certainly would not call myself a friend of his.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that may well be.

But Marina, at least, expresses herself that way--that you "were the only one who remained our friend."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She said we were the only ones----

Mr. JENNER. Who remained their friends--the others sort of removed themselves.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure, we left, you know. We were no friends, nothing. We just were too busy to be with them--period.

Mr. JENNER. I am not talking about you. I am talking about the other people now.

As you related this morning, they began to withdraw.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and we were too busy. We saw them--we withdrew also to an extent--you see what I mean. We saw a lot of them at the beginning, and then we stopped seeing them. Then we saw them again for Christmas and invited them to another party, and that is all.

Then we saw them the last time for Easter.

I am not defending myself for having seen them. But that is a fact.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I appreciate that.

What was your impression as to whether this was a hospitable man?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Who, Oswald?

Mr. JENNER. Oswald. Was he a man who was not very hospitable?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I would not say so. To us, he was always quite hospitable.

Mr. JENNER. To you, I appreciate that. I am trying to find out----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About the others, I don't know, because I never saw anybody else there in the house.

I don't know how he would receive the people. I think he responded by kindness with kindness. He was responsive to kindness.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an impression among the people in this--we have talked about, that they came to feel that he didn't care for them?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes, yes; he didn't care for them because--well, let me put it this way.

He didn't care for them because they didn't care for him, and vice versa.

But you see most of the colony in Dallas is more emotionally involved in Russian affairs than we are, because they are closer to them. All of them have been relatively recently in Soviet Russia--while my wife has never been in Soviet Russia in her life, and I was 5 or 6 when I left it. So to me it doesn't mean very much.

I am curious, but it doesn't mean anything--it is too far removed.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any views to you or give you the impression that he thought these people who had left Russia were fools for having left Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. I don't remember that.

Possibly he told somebody else. But not in my presence.

Mr. JENNER. Did he express any view to you or did you get the impression that these people in this colony or group, they only liked money, and everything was measured by money?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, naturally--he didn't tell that to me, but you can guess that that would be his opinion, because he was jealous of them. I tried to induce him a few times to get on to some money-making scheme. I said, "Why don't you do something to make money?"

But, obviously, it wasn't interesting to him.

Would you like me to say what I told you about this Solidarist?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You were interested--you asked me if I belonged to some political party, and I said no. This group of Russian refugees called themselves solidarists. And Mr. and Mrs. Voshinin in Dallas belonged to that group and tried to make me join it. Not being interested, I refused, but I read some of their publications. And it is a pro-American group of Russian refugees who have an economic doctrine of their own. And they seem to have some people working in the Soviet Union for them, and all that sort of thing.

It is a pretty well-known political party that--their headquarters is in Germany.

That is about all I know about them.

Mr. JENNER. But that group didn't interest you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; nor any other group.

Mr. JENNER. I notice in the papers at my disposal some participation on your part in a foreign council discussion group in Dallas.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I belonged to that group--I don't remember during what period--and came quite often to the meetings.

Mr. JENNER. What is the name of it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Dallas Council of World Affairs. I met quite a few people at the meetings. But they were open, public meetings, where international affairs were discussed. I remember several of the Dallas real conservatives called that Dallas council very leftist. But I never noticed anything in particular.

Mr. JENNER. Were there people of substance that participated in that group?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very much so. Mr. Marcus was the president of it. Mr. McGee was the president of it.

Mr. Mallon was president of that, and actually organized this group. Mr. Mallon is chairman of the board of Dresser Industries. But they invited some people to Dallas who are possibly socialists--I don't remember seeing anyone, but I guess they might have invited them.

Mr. JENNER. Did you on any occasion to express a view or say to anybody in Dallas among your friends that Oswald was an idealistic Marxist?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I might have said that.

Mr. JENNER. What did you mean by that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That he had read and created some sort of a theory, a Marxist theory, for himself.

In other words, he created a doctrine for himself, a Marxist doctrine.

Mr. JENNER. Is that what you meant by use of the word "Idealist"?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that it was an idea in his head that he had--not in a very flattering way I meant that. That he was building up a doctrine in his head.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say anything to anybody on the subject that Oswald was opposed to the United States policy on Castro in Cuba?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I think he mentioned to me a couple of times.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not remember the exact wording, but he said that he had admiration for Castro for opposing such a big power as the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Did the Voshinins ever ask you not to bring the Oswalds around to their house?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. They refused to see and to meet the Oswalds, either one of them. And I was quite surprised, frankly, why they didn't, because we all did and at first helped them--and they usually were very cooperative in helping the other people. In this particular case, they completely refused and looked sort of mysterious--why they didn't want to meet them.

I never asked any questions. But that is their privilege, not to see them.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the days you were in Abilene?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having discussed politics there, in which you indicated, whether in provocation or otherwise, some admiration for the Soviet system of government?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember saying anything like that. It might have been misinterpreted. But I believe in peaceful coexistence. I think we can all live together without blowing each other to hell--and many other people believe that we couldn't do that. Probably the person with whom I was discussing it believed in immediate atomic retaliation. So, naturally, I told him what the hell.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having said that if this country is ever invaded by Russia, you would have a very good chance of coming into a top position with the Russians if they invaded the United States?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never said that. That is a purely Texas invention. It must have been a real enemy of mine who said that.

Mr. JENNER. You are intellectually opposed to the Communist system?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I am. I am not interested in it--period.

Mr. JENNER. You wrote--I don't know whether it was after your 8 or 9 months in Mexico, when you were enamoured of Lilia Larin, or whether it was on this previous occasion--when you were at the University of Texas, had you written or were you writing a manuscript entitled "Experiences of a Young Man in Mexico"?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; but that is more or less a romantic dissertation, a romantic book based on some of my experiences there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you relate some of your romantic experiences?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, is it absolutely necessary? I don't recall even what I had written there.

Mr. JENNER. I just wanted the general nature of it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall what it is. It is probably based on the travel in Mexico with some girls--that is about all. That is what I would write at that time and that age.

Mr. JENNER. You were interested in girls?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any people refer to you as the Mad Russian?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an unfortunate term they call me quite often.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned somebody from Brazil that had the sobriquet of King of Bananas. Was that the King of Orchids rather than the King of Bananas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, maybe. But we called him the King of Bananas. At least I called him that.

I remember his name now--I mentioned it to you. Dr. Decio de Paulo Machado. I still--I think he is still in existence, because I asked about him recently.

Mr. JENNER. If I said you were an extrovert, would that agree with your own judgment of yourself?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't know if it is for others to call me. I would rather be an extrovert than an introvert.

Mr. JENNER. Well, for example, I regard myself as an extrovert.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then I am happy to be an extrovert. I don't like to be accused of being too much of an extrovert, because I think if you pass the limit it is too much.

Mr. JENNER. Of course. Any extreme is bad. I made a reference yesterday to Professor Zitkoff, in Houston. I thought that might stimulate your recollection. Did you make regular trips to Houston?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; quite often.

Mr. JENNER. Were they substantially regular--once a month?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. Without regularity, but quite often--mainly to see my clients there.

Mr. JENNER. And your clients were who?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the oil business--I mainly used to come to see my friend John Jacobs, vice president of Texas Eastern, and the social acquaintances that I had there--Andy Todd, an architect there, a professor at Rice Institute. And maybe somebody else--I don't recall the name.

Mr. JENNER. But these trips to Houston were strictly business?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Maybe I was trying at the time to push forward my project in Haiti, you see, whereby I was trying to raise some money for the development of small industries in Haiti. And on that occasion I saw quite a few important people. But purely for that purpose--purely for business.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Is your daughter, Alexandra, a painter or an artist?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; my wife's daughter is a painter.

Mr. JENNER. Christiana?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a time when both Christiana and your daughter were living in Dallas with you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. In your 1957 venture with the International Cooperation--as an agent of the International Cooperation Administration, in addition to Poland, as I understand it, you visited France?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Switzerland?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Sweden and Denmark.

Mr. JENNER. France, Sweden and Denmark?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you in mind, or did you hope during that period, that you would also visit Switzerland, England, Italy, and West Germany?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't see those countries--I didn't have time to see them. Instead of that, I stayed much longer in Sweden, visiting some distant relatives there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any political discussions with any so-called true Communists when you were in Yugoslavia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Political discussions?

Mr. JENNER. Arguments?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Arguments; yes. Discussions, occasionally. The real argument I had--I think maybe I mentioned it yesterday--was with the head of the Communist Party in Slovenia, who attacked me very strongly for being an American and for the fact that we had this Arkansas case, with Governor Faubus. He was very obnoxious, and I told him that he reminded me of an ultraconservative in the United States--they were both of the same type, very illogical and very biased in their opinions.

Mr. JENNER. Biased and rigid?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I think in my stay in Yugoslavia, and without taking too much pride in it, I made more friends for the United States than anybody else, because they could--I could explain to them the opportunities given to foreign born in the United States, and how joyful the life is in the States. For instance, I used to explain to them how an independent can drill an oil well with no money. To them it was beyond comprehension. To them it was a miracle that a man like me was able to promote enough money to drill an oil well. For them, it needed endless bureaucracy and enormous amount of papers and all that, and finally the well was drilled, and at an enormous price--when it could have been done very cheaply by purely organizing a small syndicate. And since I had small production of my own, I explained to them how I did that. And it was a fascinating story for them. So I think I did a good job and made a lot of friends, who used to write to me from there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make a trip to Europe in 1960? At that time, did you plan to leave early in March, March 11, and visit France, Yugoslavia, Italy, England, and Belgium, for a period of 3 weeks, on geological visits?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There might have been some projects to do that, and it did not materialize.

Mr. JENNER. Maybe this will stimulate you. You, at that time, were at the Statler Hilton Hotel in Washington, D.C.?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1960?

Mr. JENNER. March 10, as a matter of fact. Do you remember your passport being renewed on March 11?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I go to Europe or not? I don't remember. Maybe I went to Ghana at that time, in 1960 instead of going to Belgium--I went on this consulting job to Ghana.

I don't recall. My wife will recall all that precisely, because she remembers the dates.

I did go to Europe in 1960, because I remember I went to see my little boy in Philadelphia at that time before going to Europe. I was planning to. But my wife will remember all that.