Chapter XXIX: Part 29

Mrs. PAINE. On Sunday afternoon. I would guess that he had watched pro football on the television in the afternoon. It was early evening after supper, and my recollection is that Michael Paine was also at the home. I cannot recall whether he had had supper with us, but I would guess so. Then I asked the two men, Lee and Michael, to help me in rearranging the furniture in the living room. And as I have already said, in reference to my testimony regarding the note, Commission Exhibit 103, the note referring to Mexico City--I will add to that testimony here--I remembered suddenly that this note was still on the top of my secretary desk in the living room, preceded the two men into the room, and put it into my desk. This is the folding front, you know. I just opened it, put it in and closed it. And then we moved all the furniture in the room around.

Mr. JENNER. The two men were Lee Oswald and your husband?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion, you took the note, which is Commission Exhibit 103, which I call the Mexico note, and you put it inside the secretary.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mrs. PAINE. After having left it on my desk for 2 full days, waiting for it to be picked up.

Mr. JENNER. You had left it in the same place it was when you first noticed it?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And that was out in the open.

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Have you recounted all that occurs to you as pertinent to that weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a tape recorder in and about your home during that period?

Mrs. PAINE. Two of them.

Mr. JENNER. Would it have been possible for Lee Oswald, while at your home, to have made a tape recording?

Mrs. PAINE. Wait. I take it back. I had one, a small one, which did not work well. My best recollection is that Michael's, which would have been the other, was not there at that time. He was using it at his shop.

Mr. JENNER. So yours was not in working condition and his was at his shop.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At his quarters?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I meant the place of work.

Mr. JENNER. At Bell Helicopter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. So that it is your opinion that Lee Oswald could not have made any tape recording.

Mrs. PAINE. That's my opinion.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection you were not interviewed by any agent of the FBI on or about October 27 or on or about October 29, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. If you were interviewed, you are not conscious of it.

Mrs. PAINE. I was certainly not conscious of it.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your opinion, based on your recollection of all of the association of Lee Oswald with you and at your home, that it could not have been possible for him to have taken a weapon, such as the rifle involved here, to any range, shooting range, sportsdome, gun range, or otherwise, on any occasion when he was in Irving, Tex., residing or staying as a guest in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. The only time when he was there and I was away long enough for him to have gone somewhere and come back, and I now know that I can recall was Monday, the 11th of November. I have described my presence at the home on the 9th and 10th. And to the best of my recollection, there was no long period of time that I was away from the home when he was there. I may also say that there is no way of getting from my home unless you walk or have someone drive you.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. Paine, was there an occasion or incident in which the possibility of Marina seeking or obtaining employment in Philadelphia arose?

Mrs. PAINE. When she was with me in May of 1963, we talked briefly about the possibility of her going with me, accompanying me on my vacation to the East--this was before I had plans to--definite plans to teach for the summer.

She was interested in finding out what sort of job possibilities there might be for her in New York, Philadelphia, or Washington, where there were larger speaking Russian populations, and where her knowledge of Russian might be an advantage rather than a handicap. She was quite excited about this possibility and wrote Lee a letter in which she referred to it.

After thinking about it, I felt that it was not a good time for her to be applying, since she would be very clearly pregnant when making such an application, and I thought she would be apt to be discouraged.

Mr. JENNER. And you so told her?

Mrs. PAINE. And I told her so, after she had written a letter.

Mr. JENNER. And that letter of hers is in evidence?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not. She only refers to having written this letter.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 415?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Even I am exhausted of questions, Mrs. Paine. I want to express to you on the record my personal appreciation of your tremendous patience. Some of these inquiries, I know, have been quite detailed. Unfortunately we must make this sort of search. You have been very helpful.

On behalf of myself and the Commission, I express to your our appreciation.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I am very glad to be of help.

Mr. JENNER. We have no further questions as of this time.

Mr. Reporter, we will close this particular deposition.

Mrs. Paine, it is customary, and the witness has the right, to insist upon reading and signing a deposition. It is also customary for counsel to inquire whether the witness desires to waive that privilege. And I now put that question to you.

Mrs. PAINE. I understand it would be difficult for you to get that typed up for me to read before going back to Texas.

Mr. JENNER. It would be impossible to get it typed up for you to read before you go back to Texas, because I understand you are going back to Texas tomorrow, or Monday morning.

Mrs. PAINE. Monday morning. So realizing--while I would be interested to read it through, and would hope to sometime, I will waive the right to do so.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 7:30 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., home of deponent by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Let the record show that this is a resumption of the deposition of Mrs. Ruth Avery Hyde Paine, who appeared before the Commission last week and whose supplemental deposition I took on Saturday.

Since we are in a different jurisdiction now, Mrs. Paine, may I swear you?

Mrs. PAINE. You may affirm me.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you affirm that the testimony that you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mrs. PAINE. To the very best of my ability, I do so affirm.

Mr. JENNER. Present at the taking of this deposition is John Joe Howlett, H-o-w-l-e-t-t [spelling] of the U.S. Secret Service.

We are at the moment in the dining room-kitchen area of Mrs. Paine's home; is that correct, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Howlett and I have measured the rooms in the presence of Mrs. Paine. The dining room-kitchen area is open. It's full length from wall to wall is 25 feet and 4 inches in length and 12 feet, 4 inches in width. The distance from the west wall of the dining room-kitchen area to the outside wall of the bedroom on the northeast corner is 31 feet, 2 inches. That particular bedroom in the northeast corner is 12 feet by 12 feet, 1 inch. The southeast corner of the house consists of a bedroom directly to the south of the first bedroom I have just described and it is 12 feet, 1 inch by 10 feet, 9 inches. That particular bedroom opens by window, a large picture window onto West Fifth Street. The northeast bedroom has two windows, one on the north wall and one on the east wall. These are unlike the southeast bedroom in that neither of these windows is a picture window.

Mrs. PAINE. The southeast bedroom also has two windows and the picture window, I think, gives a slightly larger impression than I have of it--it's around 43 inches wide.

Mr. JENNER. Shall we measure it, then?

(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took the measurements discussed.)

Mr. JENNER. The picture window facing on Fifth Street is--why don't you recite it, Mr. Howlett?

Agent HOWLETT. Three feet, three inches and four feet, eight inches high.

Mr. JENNER. Three feet, three inches wide and four feet, eight inches high?

Agent HOWLETT. Right.

Mrs. PAINE. That's not very wide is it--39 inches?

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to go outside at the curb and stand at the place at which the FBI agent's automobile was on, as I recall your testimony, November 5, 1963, so that we can observe you through the picture window we have just mentioned and read it in the evidence?

Mrs. PAINE. I'll do my best.

(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the house and proceeded to comply with the request of Counsel Jenner and Counsel Jenner stationed himself in the bedroom referred to before the window.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Mrs. Paine, I have asked you to locate as near as you can, to the best of your recollection, the position of the FBI agent's automobile where he parked on November 5, 1962, when he made his second visit to you, and have you done so?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection I have to say to you that I cannot be absolutely certain that the blue Oldsmobile was in front of my house on that day. I don't remember for certainty. If my husband's other car was being fixed, it was not in front of the house but that should be easily determined by asking the repair shop.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you afford me your best recollection, however, at the moment?

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that it was on the street. You now see Mr. Howlett's car.

Mr. JENNER. I will describe that and you listen to me as I describe it. I am now in the southeast bedroom of Mrs. Paine's home, looking out the picture window facing onto Fifth Avenue.

Mrs. PAINE. Street.

Mr. JENNER. On Fifth Street.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And I see two automobiles; first, there is a large--what is that, an elm or oak?

Mrs. PAINE. It is an oak.

Mr. JENNER. An oak tree--I would say about 26 inches through, which is in the center of the lawn in front of the house. We will measure it, John Joe, and the lawn in due course, but the Secret Service automobile is now parked at the curb on the northeast street, which is the curb at the Paine home and directly in front of which is the blue and cream-colored automobile. Is that a four-door or two-door?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know--I guess it is a two-door.

Mr. JENNER. It is a two-tone, two-colored car, blue body and a cream-colored trim, which extends across the hood. The front bumper of Agent Howlett's automobile is just about touching the rear bumper of the automobile. The two cars together, or the combined length spans substantially all of the space between the driveway on the left, which is, I take it, the driveway to the Roberts' home.

Mrs. PAINE. No; they are on the other side of the street. It's a home that's not now used.

Mr. JENNER. The house is not occupied--that home?

Mrs. PAINE. It has not been occupied for over a year.

Mr. JENNER. That home that I am talking about is the home to the east, and as the witness has stated, it has not been occupied for a year.

It was unoccupied, then, during the time that Marina stayed with you last fall?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And the front end or front bumper of the blue and cream automobile is just a few feet east of the automobile drive over on the west side of the Paine premises?

Mrs. PAINE. I would like to put my children to bed now.

Mr. JENNER. Could you wait just 1 second? I wish John Joe would check me on this standing where I am, looking out this window.

It is impossible--at least impossible to see any license plate on either of the two automobiles parked at the curb I have described.

Agent HOWLETT. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And, you are shining your searchlight on both automobiles?

Agent HOWLETT. I am shining a flashlight on the front and rear of both automobiles and you cannot even see the license plate, much less any of the numbers.

Mr. JENNER. You can't even see whether there are license plates, let alone make out the numbers?

Agent HOWLETT. That's correct, you can't even see the numbers.

Mr. JENNER. All right, we will suspend for your convenience now.

(At this point Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and Mrs. Paine, as well as the court reporter, left the area of the bedroom heretofore mentioned from which window the examination was being made of premises outside the window, Mrs. Paine proceeding to care for her children and Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett and the court reporter returning to the dining room-kitchen area where the deposition is primarily being conducted. Shortly thereafter Mrs. Paine returned to the area of the taking of the deposition and proceedings of same continued as follows:)

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you were present when I described the view or described my observations looking through the picture window first on Fifth Street?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And, was I accurate in my description of the lot area and the automobiles parked in front and what could be seen and what could not be seen in the way of a license plate?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; you were accurate.

Mr. JENNER. On the 5th day of November did an agent of the FBI come for a second time to interview you?

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't recall the day, but I have been told it was that day--yes.

Mr. JENNER. While you do recall that it was 4 or 5 days after the 1st of November?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. What time of day was it, or night, if it was night?

Mrs. PAINE. I'm trying to think what else was going on.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. My best estimate--it was afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. I'll ask you this, it was during the daytime?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was during the day.

Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to the state of the weather?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a fair day, and I think it was afternoon, but I'm not sure--absolutely certain of that.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, was it Agent Hosty?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. He had someone else with him that time.

Mr. JENNER. And did the other FBI agent come in with Agent Hosty?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, just barely across the threshold.

Mr. JENNER. Did either of these gentlemen give you the license number of the automobile which they had parked in front of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ascertain that license number?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make any attempt to do so?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I made no attempt to.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina Oswald in your home on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. She was in my home.

Mr. JENNER. When they arrived, where was she in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. When they arrived, she was in the front bedroom.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the whole course of their presence and even afterward by her, which indicated or led you to believe or by implication or otherwise, that she had observed the license number on the FBI automobile?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was said that might indicate that.

Mr. JENNER. Or any implication or anything from what you might have drawn an inference, that she had paid attention to a license number?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did a discussion occur during that conference or interview in which Agent Hosty made reference to the parking of his automobile on the occasion of November 1 when he had interviewed you?

Mrs. PAINE. This is entirely possible. I recall distinctly that I noticed that they were parked down the street or he was parked down the street on the first interview, and it seems to me----

Mr. JENNER. You had noticed that at the time?

Mrs. PAINE. I had noticed that.

Mr. JENNER. And how did that come to your attention?

Mrs. PAINE. I think Mr. Hosty may have brought it up, brought it up to his having talked to my neighbor a previous time. He made the point that he tried not to be too obvious or upset the neighbors by their visits.

Mr. JENNER. And having that delicacy in mind, he had parked the car down the street?

Mrs. PAINE. The first time.

Mr. JENNER. The neighbor to whom you refer is Mrs. Roberts?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And her home is next door to the west?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right--2519.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we have used the general term "down the street;" which way was "down the street," to the west or to the east?

Mrs. PAINE. How did we use the term?

Mr. JENNER. You said he said he parked down the street.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly whether it was down--my best recollection is that he was parked in front of the house that the Ponders used to live in.

Mr. JENNER. The whom?

Mrs. PAINE. The Ponders.

Mr. JENNER. P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]?

Mrs. PAINE. P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]--Ponder is the name, but it is the brick house on the southwest corner of Fifth Street and----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that's east.

Mrs. PAINE. The southwest corner of the crossing of Fifth Street and whatever it is--you know, Westbrook.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the crossroad?

Mrs. PAINE. In other words--yes--it's directly diagonal from the Randles.

Mr. JENNER. Is it southeast and at a diagonal across the street from your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; or, it may have been down the street farther the other way, or I may be confused with what Mrs. Roberts told me about where he parked when he first came to talk with her.

Mr. JENNER. Let me ask you: Did you see his car, his automobile on that day--November 1st?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe I did--yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you watch him leave the premises and just watch the two men drive away?

Mrs. PAINE. There was only one the first time.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can't recall. But I would think it likely that I did.

Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. She was in the living room with me.

Mr. JENNER. Was she beside you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you both looking out the window?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best I can recall.

Mr. JENNER. And had you so desired, could you have seen the license plate on Agent Hosty's automobile on that occasion, to wit, November 1st?

Mrs. PAINE. Not with 20-40 vision.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have 20-40 vision?

Mrs. PAINE. It's 20-40 or 20-50--I forget.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether the license plate could have been seen with 20-20 vision?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't have an opinion.

Mr. JENNER. Did Agent Hosty pass in front of your house?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall at all.

Mr. JENNER. Now, facing as you are, onto Fifth Street, do you have that recollection now as to whether the FBI automobile passed when Mr. Hosty left and drove away, did it pass in front of your house?

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I had already taken my attention elsewhere, that I didn't try to notice, and certainly I did not notice whether he passed in front of the house.

Mr. JENNER. At any rate, you did not look at the license plate?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. And seek to ascertain the number?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina did?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she could have?

Mrs. PAINE. That's possible--she might have if one can see that with normal vision.

Mr. JENNER. So that on the November 1st date, you are unable to fix definitely whether she did or didn't, or could or could not have seen the license plate and the number of Agent Hosty's automobile?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give us your best judgment in the premises as to whether she did--you had some feeling of her presence on that day, have you not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I certainly didn't see her write anything down.

Mr. JENNER. And what was your impression, if you had any?

Mrs. PAINE. I have none.

Mr. JENNER. You just weren't thinking of license plates at all?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't.

Mr. JENNER. Were you thinking of them on the fifth?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, the automobile of Agent Hosty was parked, as you say, down the street and some few houses, at least a number of feet away from your home on the first, whereas, he parked it in front of your home as we have now noted on the fifth.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I notice you have a bathtub shower?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Oswald in the habit of taking a shower?

Mrs. PAINE. He often took a shower when he arrived home from work on Friday, when he arrived here from work on a Friday afternoon and before dinner.

Mr. JENNER. Did he take a shower, to your recollection, in the mornings when he was here?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his having done so.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to whether he took a shower in any event on the morning of November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of him at all on the morning of November 22d, except an empty coffee cup.

Mr. JENNER. I take it that, and I should say in the presence of yourself and Mr. Howlett, that the bathroom is located on the north side of the house in between the wall of the northeast bedroom and the back wall of the combination kitchen and dining room area.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Am I correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And when a shower is taken and you are in your bedroom where you were as I recall on November 22 in the morning, it makes a noise and it's quite noticeable to you, is it?

Mrs. PAINE. If I'm asleep, there are many things that are not noticeable to me. I do leave my room door open.

Mr. JENNER. Well, apart from whether you were asleep, I just wanted to get that--whether you could hear it.

Mrs. PAINE. I would certainly hear it.

Mr. JENNER. And does it make enough racket or noise so that it might well awaken you if it's turned on?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; especially that close to morning.

Mr. JENNER. And you were not awakened this morning by any shower?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether you noticed, when you performed your own ablutions that morning as to whether the shower had been employed, that is, was the shower curtain moist or wet?

Mrs. PAINE. I made no notice such as that.

Mr. JENNER. Is it likely that had the shower been used you would have noticed it?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I can't say as it is.

Mr. JENNER. You had, I gather, no sense of his presence that morning and his leavetaking that morning at all until you arose and he was then gone?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. You heard no moving about on his part prior to your awakening?

Mrs. PAINE. No moving about on his part at all when I looked when I awoke.

(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took other measurements in the hallway of the Witness Paine.)

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett and I have measured the bathroom and it is 5 feet wide and 8 feet 8 inches long. The hallway running north and south at the entrance to the 2 bedrooms, using the wall instead of the jamb, 9 feet 6 inches long, and 3 feet 4 inches wide.

The living room, which faces on Fifth Street and is to the east of the garage wall and to the west of the hallway, running across to the 2 bedrooms which we have just measured, and which faces out onto Fifth Street, is 13 feet wide by 16 feet 8 inches long. Now, Mrs. Paine, I'll stand beside you, if I may, and I am facing toward Fifth Street, am I not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And we are sitting in the dining room portion of the combination kitchen-dining room?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Directly in front of us--I am standing right behind you--on the left is a doorway entering into your living room?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. There is a wall between that wall jamb and another door jamb to the right or west?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that door opens onto what?

Mrs. PAINE. It goes into the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Now, John Joe, if you will measure the distance between the outer edge of the door jamb of the living room door and the door jamb of the garage door, however, let's get the outside.

Agent HOWLETT. It would be 1 foot 2 inches from outside jamb to outside jamb.

Mr. JENNER. So that the space west----

Mrs. PAINE. That's east, I'm sorry.

Mr. JENNER. The wall spacing and the two door jambs together, separate the two doors and are of the width which has been recited. Now, before I open the door, which you say enters into the garage--by the way, how wide is that?

Agent HOWLETT. It is a 2-foot 8-inch door.

Mr. JENNER. And how high?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 6 feet 8-1/2 inches and it would actually be classified as a 6-foot 9-inch door.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is there a light switch on the dining room wall which lights the light in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I see a light switch just immediately to the right of the door jamb of the door leading into the garage; what is that switch for?

Mrs. PAINE. It lights the light in the dining area.

Mr. JENNER. And on one of the photographs taken by the FBI, that light switch appeared, did it not?

Mrs. PAINE. I would expect so.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that it did?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall--I recall the shot which included that area.

Mr. JENNER. That light switch, then, John Joe, let us locate it.

Agent HOWLETT. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor.

Mr. JENNER. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor and how many inches to the center of the light switch?

Agent HOWLETT. It is actually about 6-3/4 inches to the center of the light switch.

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I did see that switch in the FBI photograph.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, when we arrived, what was the condition of the garage door as to whether it was opened or closed? That is, the full door facing onto Fifth Street?

Mrs. PAINE. The outside garage door--the large one?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. It is closed and has been since you arrived.

Mr. JENNER. And the door that is leading into the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Is likewise closed and has been since you arrived.

Mr. JENNER. None of us has been in there, including yourself, since I arrived?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I'm going to open the door and observe that first there is a screen door on the other side of the wall, is there not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Facing the wooden garage door that I have just opened. Now, I have stepped into the garage and would you come over here, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is there a light switch handy to turn the light on in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.

Mr. JENNER. And would you snap it on?

Mrs. PAINE. (The witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner and turned on the light.)

Mr. JENNER. And that light switch is immediately to your right as you enter the garage from the dining room area, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And, John Joe, would you measure its height from the floor?

Agent HOWLETT. It is also 4 feet 6 inches.

Mr. JENNER. And is set with relation to the doorjamb, how many inches?

Agent HOWLETT. Six and one-half inches.

Mr. JENNER. And that's to the right of the doorjamb as you enter from the dining room area?

Agent HOWLETT. Right.

Mr. JENNER. So, Mrs. Paine, it is within very easy reach--it's less than a hand's length away, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we have entered the garage. Let's measure the garage in the presence of Mrs. Paine, John Joe, and I will now take one end to the far end of the garage facing onto Fifth Street, and place the tape against the inside facing of the garage door opening out onto Fifth Street. What is the length to the dining room wall?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 21 feet 8 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, let's get it across.

Agent HOWLETT. It is 10 feet 6 inches wide.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, I notice that in the northwest corner of your garage there appears to be a small storage room, I would describe it.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And that small storage room is completely enclosed except for a small opening which does not have a door or cover; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And the storeroom is 4 feet 8 inches wide, measuring from east to west; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Agent HOWLETT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it is how many feet and inches deep?

Agent HOWLETT. Three feet one inch deep.

Mr. JENNER. Meaning the distance from the back of the dining room area wall and the outside portion facing of the south wall of the storeroom?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And this storeroom, Mrs. Paine, runs all the way from the floor to the ceiling, does it not, of your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.

Mr. JENNER. And I judge--well, John Joe, we might as well measure that while we are at it, with the door open, to the floor of the grass to the ceiling?

Agent HOWLETT. From the ceiling to the floor of the grass is 8 feet 3 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we will measure the opening into the storage room. The opening itself is 1 foot 8 inches inside wide, and 5 feet 11 inches tall.

Mrs. Paine, in your testimony last week in referring to the blanket-wrapped package, you located it in two places in your garage, which I will review with you in a moment; could the package at any time have been placed in the storeroom?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I suppose so.

Mr. JENNER. And if placed in the storeroom, it would not have been open to view unless you climbed back in there to see; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is nothing I normally get in the storeroom--well, no; that's not strictly so. I hid birthday presents for--my little girl's birthday party was on the 16th of November--in there in the storeroom.

Mr. JENNER. All right, that's an interesting development. When you hid the birthday presents of your daughter, anticipating her fourth birthday on the 16th of November 1963, did you notice at that time the blanket wrapped package in the storeroom?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. And, in secreting those presents would you reasonably, necessarily have noticed that blanket wrapped package in that small storeroom?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I would have noticed it.

Mr. JENNER. When did you remove those secreted birthday gifts from that small storeroom?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection some were removed on Friday evening the 15th, and some on Saturday the 16th.

Mr. JENNER. Was the blanket wrapped package which you have described last week, in that storeroom on either of those occasions?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. And would you have noticed the blanket wrapped package in that small storeroom had it been there?

Mrs. PAINE. I surely would have.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Agent Howlett has called my attention to the fact that there is an opening in the ceiling of your garage which leads up to, as I see it now, crawl space above the garage which extends, I take it, the length of your house?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And, John Joe, what is that--2 feet by 2 feet?

Agent HOWLETT. Roughly--yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Has that crawl space opening been without a cover for some considerable period of time?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall its ever having had a cover.

Mr. JENNER. And did you have occasion----

Mrs. PAINE. There was a fan in it for a while--is there now?

Agent HOWLETT. There's an edge of a fan sticking out.

Mrs. PAINE. It has been more recently moved over.

Agent HOWLETT. It's actually 1 foot 9 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than 2 feet by 2 feet. Was that fan in place in the fall of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was--yes.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, that that fan is a movable fan?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which you can push up and slide over easily?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Are you able to do it yourself?

Mrs. PAINE. I never have.

Mr. JENNER. So, you don't know its heft or weight?

Mrs. PAINE. I can lift it from the floor, I know that about it, but I have never tried to lift it with my arms up.

Mr. JENNER. And is it a fan made for that particular spacing?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or, is it really a floor fan that you sometimes use in your home itself and then sometimes place over that opening to draw the heat out, I guess it would be, wouldn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. It's a portable fan.

Mr. JENNER. It's a portable fan, and is it your recollection that on the morning of the 22d of November that fan straddled the opening in the ceiling?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection one way or the other?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. Since it is portable, it might have been moved back and, if moved back, the blanket wrapped package could have been stored up there, correct?

Mrs. PAINE. It could have been.

Mr. JENNER. Did you enter that crawl space at any time in the fall of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. And, in particular, did you examine it on the afternoon of the 22d or any time on the 22d of November 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. When the police came here on the afternoon of November 22, did they climb up and look in the crawl space above the ceiling of your house?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not see anyone do that.

Mr. JENNER. I am only asking while you were present--while you were present, did the police look in the storage room we have now described?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection they did.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the length of the garage extends from the Fifth Street side back to your dining room area, does it not?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And the width of the garage runs from the wall of the living room to the wall of the house on the west?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please go out in the garage and in our presence put your foot in the spot--and the two places--that you noticed the blanket wrapped package, as you testified last week?

Mrs. PAINE. All right.

(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)

The blanket was lying approximately here from about here--in front of the work bench, halfway to the band saw.

Mr. JENNER. Will you listen to me please: We are approximately in the center of the lengthwise plane of the garage and there is on the west wall a work bench. On the work bench is a drill, a South Bend drill, a heavy industrial type drill, with a number of packages, and then underneath the work bench is a small desk--is that a child's desk?

Mrs. PAINE. No; a student desk.

Mr. JENNER. And in the knee hole in the center of that desk on the left and right of which are sets of two drawers is what; what is that?

Mrs. PAINE. That's an ice chest.

Mr. JENNER. Was that ice chest there on the 22d of November?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is the desk underneath the work bench and is the work bench also--are all these things now in the position they were on November 22d?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And, are they in the position they were substantially from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. They are in the same position.

Mr. JENNER. The work bench I have described is at its top 8 feet 1 inch in length and 2 feet 3 inches wide or deep, extending out from the west wall into the garage. It's a good substantial work bench, though it is piled high with various boxes and cartons. Is the top of the work bench in approximately the same condition now as it was on November 22, 1963, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. A little fuller.

Mr. JENNER. And is it in approximately, in that respect, the condition it was from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I will now measure the distance east and west from the outside leading edge of the work bench to the east wall of the garage.

Agent HOWLETT. It's 7 feet 9 inches.

Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the work bench is 8 feet 5 inches from the inner side of the overhead garage door, which is now in place.

There is a band saw to the south of the work bench also against the west wall of the garage. It stands--it looks like a pretty solid piece of equipment and it stands 5 feet 7 inches high from the floor and the band saw, Mrs. Paine, is a solid piece of equipment--metal, that is, resting on the garage floor itself, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And it is, John Joe, how wide a space?

Agent HOWLETT. One foot five inches.

Mr. JENNER. It's a powermatic band saw that has an identification plate "Machinery Sales" and the like on it.

The distance from the south edge of the bench to the north edge of the band saw is what, John Joe?

Agent HOWLETT. Two feet eight inches.

Mr. JENNER. Would you measure off 45 inches on that--we have taken a piece of corrugated box board, measured off 45 inches in length, and I will ask Mrs. Paine to take that piece of corrugated box board and place it in the position in which the blanket-wrapped package was.

Mrs. PAINE. That's it.

(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, may I describe for the record, Mrs. Paine has placed that 45-inch corrugated box board in the position she recalls it was when you first saw it, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. No; that's the second time--it's where it was on November 22.

Mr. JENNER. This is where it was on November 22d and one end is how many inches from the base of the band saw, Mr. Howlett?

Agent HOWLETT. It's 8 feet from the base of the band saw.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. As I recall--yes.

Mr. JENNER. And, it extends in a northerly direction 45 inches and ends up how many inches north of the south edge of the work bench, Mr. Howlett?

Agent HOWLETT. One foot eight inches.

Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine has placed that, is that correct, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I'm not sure but it wasn't somewhat more to the north. My recollection is not that clear.

Mr. JENNER. But have you placed it approximately as you can best recall, and that is all we can ask you to do now?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How many inches is it out from Mr. Howlett, the front of the desk underneath the work bench?

Agent HOWLETT. The center of it is about 3-1/2 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Don't get the center, because the package was wider than that piece is.

Mrs. PAINE. I'll place it where--where the outside edge is--where the outside edge of the package was.

Agent HOWLETT. The inside edge?

Mr. JENNER. Which do you say is inside?

Mrs. PAINE. Let me take more packages--I'm trying to refresh my memory as to where this was. I do recall standing on it, and whether it was when I stood here or here?

Mr. JENNER. When she says, "Here," she is standing, are you not, Mrs. Paine, facing north with your hand on the southeast corner of the work bench?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you are standing rather near to the work bench?

Mrs. PAINE. I'm trying to recall where I saw it on the 22d, but anyway, that would be the width of the package between those two boards.

Mr. JENNER. What is the distance from the bottom of the desk underneath the work bench to the nearest edge of the package?

Agent HOWLETT. Four and one-half inches.

Mr. JENNER. And the distance from the bottom of the desk to the outside edge, or most easterly edge of the package?

Agent HOWLETT. One foot two and one-half inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did I ask you, and I just want to make certain, when was it that you observed the blanket-wrapped package on the floor the second time?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall the package was on the floor on the 22d, and that it was not the first time I had seen it there, but I cannot answer just when I first saw it in that position--I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Your testimony was, as I recall, that to the best of your recollection the blanket-wrapped package occurred in two places in the garage.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you noticed it at any time from the 4th of October to and including the 22d of November 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you have now located it as where you saw it--it will be better for you to tell us where it was located when you first noticed it.

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is--I first noticed it somewhere in the vicinity of the rotary saw.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we have a rotary saw which is pushed up against the east wall of the garage and is located really, on that wall, but between the south edge of the work bench and the north edge of the band saw; am I correct about that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And it is a Craftsman saw--it is also a substantial piece of equipment. The saw plane or table is how long?

Agent HOWLETT. Three feet four inches.

Mr. JENNER. And how wide?

Agent HOWLETT. One foot nine and one-half inches.

Mr. JENNER. And that stands how many feet from the wall, Mr. Howlett?

Agent HOWLETT. The saw table is 3 feet 2-1/2 inches.

Mr. JENNER. And the distance from the floor to the top of the saw itself, that is, all of the saw instrument itself?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 4 feet 7 inches.

Mr. JENNER. And what is the distance of extension of the saw table, measuring from the east wall of the garage to the westerly most portion of the saw table?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 7-1/2 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Have I located that saw, Mrs. Paine, in your presence so that the locations I have given are as you have observed accurate?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the saw table is how many feet and inches, Mr. Howlett, from the inside facing of the overhead garage door, which is down in place?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 5 feet 6 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, would you please locate--take the 45-inch package and relocate it where you first saw it?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think there is any point in my doing that--I can't remember whether it went east or west or north or south.

Mr. JENNER. Well, regardless of how it was facing, whether east or west or north or south, where was it when you saw it?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can recall distinctly that the area between the saw table and the two chests of drawers was filled with boxes of belongings of things that belonged to Lee and Marina Oswald. The package was either under the saw table or out in front of those boxes some way.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I will locate the things you have described.

The saw table, the height of which has been stated into the record, is suspended from the floor by 2 by 4 braces, which angle from the east wall of the garage up to the underside west end of the circular saw table, and except for those two braces running up from the floor and the saw to the underside of the circular saw table, there is nothing underneath there.

Was that the condition in which that space was when you noticed the package on the floor earlier--the first time?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was for the most part--it was.

Mr. JENNER. The witness has mentioned two--what do you call those?

Mrs. PAINE. Chest of drawers.

Mr. JENNER. They are located 1 foot 6 inches south of the south edge of the saw table. They are themselves how wide?

Agent HOWLETT. Two feet one inch.

Mr. JENNER. They are 2 feet 1 inch wide and extend out from the joist of the garage wall on the east garage wall how many feet, Mr. Howlett?

Agent HOWLETT. Two feet five inches.

Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the set of chests, did you say these were?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the set of chest of drawers is 2 feet 1 inch to the inside portion of the overhead garage door, which is in place. Now, would you with that description again state where the package was when you first saw it, first was the space you said was filled with the goods and wares of the Oswalds located in the space between the south edge of the saw table and the north edge of the chest of drawers?

Mrs. PAINE. With some overlapping of the area of the saw table.

Mr. JENNER. With that in mind, tell us where the blanket-wrapped package was.

Mrs. PAINE. I do not have a distinct recollection of where it lay on the floor.

Mr. JENNER. Locate it the best you can.

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was partially under the saw table or out towards the front of their boxes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see the blanket-wrapped package upended in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I notice a ball of string which I have just taken from a box, which is on the surface of the work bench.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You have testified that the blanket-wrapped package was in turn tied or wrapped with string?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You think perhaps, around in four places?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was the string of the weight and character of that which I have in my hand, that is, this ball of string?

Mrs. PAINE. It could have been that weight or it could have been as heavy as this other short piece that's on the floor.

Mr. JENNER. The short piece which Mrs. Paine has picked up and has exhibited to me, we will mark "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 270," and we will cut a piece of the other twine or string and mark that as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 271."

(Materials referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibits Nos. 270 and 271," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, Mrs. Paine, and John Joe, Exhibit No. 271 is the lighter and thinner of the two pieces of string which the witness has identified, is it not?

Agent HOWLETT. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I will state, and will everybody agree with me or disagree with me, if I misstate the facts that it would be utterly impossible to get an automobile into this garage in the condition that it is now, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. It would be utterly impossible.

Mr. JENNER. And, is its condition now in that sense substantially the same as it was on October 4 and from thence forward through November 22, 1963, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Now, as I understand it, Mrs. Paine, you, Marina, and the policeman came out into this garage on the afternoon of November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right?

Mr. JENNER. Did you lead the procession into the garage, or did Marina, or someone with the policeman?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall saying that most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage, and I don't recall whether it was a policeman or myself who first entered. I would guess it had been myself.

Mr. JENNER. Had there been some conversation before you entered the garage on the subject of whether Lee Oswald had a rifle and was there a rifle located in the home?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion before we entered the garage.

Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose of your entering the garage on that occasion and the circumstance as to why you entered the garage with the police, and I take it Marina was with you, was she?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina followed. They had asked to search--I told them that most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage and some were in the room where Marina was staying.

Mr. JENNER. Now, trying to reconstruct this situation and to stimulate your recollection, would you walk into the garage and tell us as you walk in, what occurred and when the first conversation took place, if any took place, about a weapon in the premises? Would you start back here at the garage entrance?

(At this point the witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner, entering the garage.)

Mr. JENNER. I take it, Mrs. Paine, you and Marina, and how many policemen were there?

Mrs. PAINE. Two or three.

Mr. JENNER. Two or three policemen walked into your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And for what purpose?

Mrs. PAINE. To see what was in it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, for you to point out to them where the Oswald things were in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you entered then and walked east toward the overhead garage door?

Mrs. PAINE. That's south instead of east.

Mr. JENNER. That's south, I'm sorry; you are right.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was that garage door in place on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. The four or five of you, depending on how many policemen there were, walked to the place that you have now heretofore described to us as where the Oswalds' things were located in the main part, however, the blanket wrapped package was not at that----

Mrs. PAINE [interrupting]. We didn't get as far as the area where most of the Oswald things were located.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You got about what--halfway into the garage facing south?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then, what happened?

Mrs. PAINE. Then, one of the officers asked me if Lee Oswald had a rifle or weapon, and I said, "No."

Mr. JENNER. This was in the presence of Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you were then--at that point you were standing where?