Chapter VIII: Part 8

Mr. JENNER. And did they make any trips to Europe during the period that you were married to their daughter?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; they did not. These trips were prior to our marriage. However, I had seen photographs and had some pointed out to me in the family album--photographs of them in various Communist countries.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Where does your former wife, Alexandra, now live--if you know?

Mr. TAYLOR. In Wingdale, N.Y.

Mr. JENNER. Is she married?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What's her husband's name?

Mr. TAYLOR. Gibson. I only know him as Don Gibson.

Mr. JENNER. What business is he in?

Mr. TAYLOR. I do not know.

Mr. JENNER. Where does Christiana reside--if you know?

Mr. TAYLOR. To my knowledge, they have not had a fixed residence since they married. My last communication from the De Mohrenschildts said that they were on their way to Europe and I don't know anything other than that.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Is there anything in addition to what you have already said that you would like to add to the record that you think might be helpful to the Commission--that would open avenues for further investigation or give us directly information that might be helpful?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. We have been off the record once or twice, Mr. Taylor. Is there anything that you now can recall that you related to me off the record that is pertinent here or, at least, that you might think is pertinent, that I have failed to bring out?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; there is nothing.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that was stated in your off the record statements that you regard as inconsistent with any statement you said on the record?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you have the right to read this deposition if you wish. It will be ready sometime next week. You may communicate with me or Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney, and come in and read it and make any corrections, if you think any are warranted, make any additions if you think any are warranted, and sign it if you desire and prefer to sign it. You have all of those rights. You also have the right to waive that if you see fit.

Mr. TAYLOR. For the sake of accuracy, I would like to read it.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You call, I would suggest--this is a rather long deposition--about Wednesday of next week.

Mr. TAYLOR. All right. Barefoot's an old friend. I'll call him.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. It's much longer that I had anticipated--but you were very helpful and thanks for coming here despite the inconvenience.

Mr. TAYLOR. That's quite all right. I hope I was of some help.

TESTIMONY OF ILYA A. MAMANTOV

The testimony of Ilya A. Mamantov was taken at 10 a.m., on March 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsels of the President's Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Before I examine you, Mr. Mamantov, you are appearing voluntarily at our request?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. You understand, do you, that you are entitled to counsel if you wish counsel?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But you don't wish counsel?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't wish it.

Mr. JENNER. And you are also entitled to purchase a copy of your transcript of your testimony at whatever the usual rates the reporters charge and you are also entitled to read over your testimony if you wish, and to either inspect or sign it, or you may have the right to waive the signing of your deposition.

Mr. MAMANTOV. It doesn't matter--what the proper procedure is--I would like to read those--it's always possible, because the interpretation of a single word that would change the meaning by someone is up to you. If you want me to sign, I'll sign. If you don't, all right.

Mr. JENNER. That's your option--you may sign it or not, as you see fit.

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's my option--all right.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness Mamantov off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. On the record. If he wishes--it will be Thursday morning probably--we would like to have it ready for you to read over, would that be convenient for you?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. If you will come up to this office then, Thursday morning, then one of the other of us will be here and a transcript of your testimony will be available to you to peruse if you wish.

Mr. MAMANTOV. My name as you used my name was misspelled--I don't know if you want that--it was misspelled on my letter sent me.

Mr. JENNER. When I examine you I will have you spell your name. Go ahead and spell it for us now.

Mr. MAMANTOV. It's M-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], it is an "an" and not "en" as you have it.

Mr. JENNER. All right, give your full name and spell it.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll give you my full name.

Mr. JENNER. And how do you pronounce that full name? I-l-y-e [phonetic spelling], or I-l-a [phonetic spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I-l-y-a [spelling], A. M-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], and the address has been changed in the meantime too--to 2444 Fairway Circle, Richardson, Tex., Zip No. 75080, if it is important.

Mr. JENNER. Did you give your telephone number?

Mr. MAMANTOV. AD-5-28--2873, it's a new number.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, the Commission desires to inquire of you because of your acquaintance with the De Mohrenschildts, and your work with the Dallas City Police on November 22 and 23.

Mr. MAMANTOV. The 22d.

Mr. JENNER. The 22d only, and you translated for Marina Oswald in that connection?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Your acquaintance with the Russian emigre group in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and especially your acquaintance with Marina to the extent you had one. You have given your full name and your full address. What is your business, profession, or occupation?

Mr. MAMANTOV. A research geologist with Sun Oil Co.

Mr. JENNER. And how long have you held that position?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Since 1955.

Mr. JENNER. And is that your profession--a geologist?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And prior to 1952, your employment was?

Mr. MAMANTOV. With the Donnally Geophysical Co. here in Dallas as seismologist.

Mr. JENNER. And over what period of time did that work extend?

Mr. MAMANTOV. It covers 1951, the summer of 1951 until the fall of 1955, when I took my present job.

Mr. JENNER. Let's take one step back--by whom were you employed, or with whom were you associated, prior thereto?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Lion Match Co.

Mr. JENNER. L-y-o-n [spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. L-i-o-n [spelling] Match Co. in New York.

Mr. JENNER. In what capacity?

Mr. MAMANTOV. As a production scheduling or scheduler for the machines.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, though, you were a trained geologist, you at least at that phase of your career you were not pursuing your profession or your particular calling?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, because I just came from Europe as a displaced person and I didn't speak English enough.

Mr. JENNER. All right, I got back to where I was going to go faster than I thought.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--you want it in details--my life--approximately at that time?

Mr. JENNER. Not in great detail, but start out this way--I am a native of such and such country--and just tell us about yourself.

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. I am a native of Russia. When I was 7 my parents came to Latvia.

Mr. JENNER. They immigrated to Latvia?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, and there I was raised and educated and I received my geological education and training. In 1945, excuse me, 1944, we left for Germany with the retreating German Army and I went to South Germany, stayed until the American Army moved in Peissenberg, P-e-i-s-s-e-n-b-e-r-g [spelling], Germany and in August of that year, excuse me, of 1945, we went to a DP camp.

Mr. JENNER. "DP" meaning displaced persons?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Displaced persons camp near Guenzburg, G-u-e-n-z-b-u-r-g [spelling], Germany.

Mr. JENNER. You say "we", at the time were you married?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I, oh, I was married all time.

Mr. JENNER. When did you marry?

Mr. MAMANTOV. 1938.

Mr. JENNER. A native of Latvia or of Russia?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Latvia, and my wife is Latvian--native Latvian.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is your age, sir?

Mr. MAMANTOV. 50 and, so, I am--my mother-in-law was also with us.

Mr. JENNER. Who is she--what is her name?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Dorothy Gravitis, G-r-a-v-i-t-i-s [spelling].

Mr. JENNER. And is she in this country?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I'll ask you some more questions about her later.

Mr. MAMANTOV. And her husband was arrested by the Communist in 1941 and we haven't heard of him since that time.

Mr. JENNER. You say "arrested by the Communist" do you make a distinction when you use the word description "Communist" as something different from the Russians?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes; nothing to do with the nation. As you know, Communists are in Latvia, Communists are in Russia, and Communists are in Germany, and nothing to do with the nation. I am using this as an occupational force--I'll put it this way.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Or way of government.

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And where did you receive your higher education?

Mr. MAMANTOV. In Riga, R-i-g-a [spelling], Latvia, which is the capital of Latvia, and the name of the university was the University of Latvia.

Mr. JENNER. And have you had graduate school education?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's where I got my graduate school. My degree is approximately equivalent to a local Ph. D--it's actually between master's and Ph. D.

Mr. JENNER. When did you settle in Dallas?

Mr. MAMANTOV. In September 1955.

Mr. JENNER. And have you and Mrs. Mamantov resided in Dallas ever since?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; my wife still was in Roswell, N. Mex., at that time and she moved to Dallas immediately after the Thanksgiving Day.

Mr. JENNER. In 1955?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. You see, we received our citizenship in November of 1955 at Roswell, N. Mex.

Mr. JENNER. Both you and your wife?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Whole family, and Mrs. Gravitis.

Mr. JENNER. Does that include Mrs. Gravitis?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Any particular reason why you were in Roswell, N. Mex.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I was with Donnally Geophysical Co. at that time.

Mr. JENNER. And was its main office located there?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; this was the field party. The office is located here in Dallas and we traveled--at the start of 1951--Post, Tex.; Brownfield, Tex.; Lubbock, Tex.; Hobbs, N. Mex.; Odessa, Tex.; Roswell, N. Mex., and I left----

Mr. JENNER. I think that's enough.

Mr. MAMANTOV. My family and my wife and I moved to Mississippi for a month.

Mr. JENNER. Still employed by Lion?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Still employed by the seising crew which was in Magee, Miss. From there we moved to Palacious, Tex. From there to Coalgate, Okla.; from Coalgate, Okla., to Seminole, Tex. My wife quit the company at that time and went to Roswell to join the family.

Mr. JENNER. Is your wife a professional person also?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She is not graduated from a law school, but she went quite a way.

Mr. JENNER. She took legal training, training in the law?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but she worked as a geologist--as geological computer for that particular company.

Mr. JENNER. Did she finish her law work in Europe or here?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; she didn't graduate. The Communists moved in and our law didn't exist at that time, as well you know.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, I am Albert E. Jenner, and this gentleman is Jim Liebeler. We are members of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Assassination Commission, and under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and rules procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, we have been authorized to take the sworn deposition of Mr. Mamantov.

I should also say to you, Mr. Mamantov--have you had 3-days' notice?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, the Secret Service called me on Friday and on Saturday I received your letter, which was sent to my old address.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that might not be technically 3-days' notice. You are entitled under the rules of procedure to the 3-days' notice of the taking of your deposition.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; Friday, Saturday, Sunday--I had.

Mr. JENNER. You are entitled to waive that full 3 days if you desire, and do you agree to waive it?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean--I agree to deposition--I don't know your legal terms.

Mr. JENNER. We've got you into Dallas, now.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; we got to Seminole--one more place I went from there. No; two more places--I went from Seminole to Snyder, Tex., and from Snyder, Tex., I went for 3 weeks to Forest, Miss., and at that time I quit the company and got my job with Sun Oil Co. here in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. With Sun?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and purchased our home at 6911 East Mockingbird in October, the 1st of October 1955.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what is your facility in the command of the Russian language, with particular reference to--did you or have you done any teaching of the language?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I am teaching since 1960 here in the Dallas area. I taught scientific research to some men, of a research personnel in 1960-1961. And, I taught in the Austin College in Sherman from--it was the fall of, yes, it was fall of 1961 and 1962. No--1962 and 1963. Now, I am teaching at SMU or Dallas College, to be specific, of SMU.

Mr. JENNER. Have you done any interpreting or translating?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; for the American Geophysical Union, quite extensively in 1959, 1960, and 1961, and I think--yes--1961 I finished.

Mr. JENNER. And have you also done any interpreting or translating for any law enforcement agencies?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Here in the States?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Let me think a little--no, I don't remember. I have translated minor papers, you see, like Soviet Union's marriage certificates and birth certificates for our local courts connected with divorces, and I might be of a help to a group of Latvians, people here in town, when they received their citizenship, so much, but this is the first time for the police department.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I'll get to that. Have you ever been called upon by either any agency of the Government of the United States or of the State of Texas or the City of Dallas to do any interpreting or translating?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, I was called by the police force for the City of Dallas around 5 o'clock, November 22.

Mr. JENNER. What year?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Of 1955, on 2 or 3 minutes' notice.

Mr. JENNER. It was 1955 or 1963?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Excuse me, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. I got from what you have said, then, you had no prior notice?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; sir.

Mr. JENNER. You were called by some official of the city police department?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I was called by Lt. Lumpkin. I think he's Lieutenant--they call him Chief.

Mr. JENNER. And you repaired then to the Dallas City Police Station?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Excuse me, I was called by somebody else, a couple of minutes ahead of Lumpkin--is it important?

Mr. JENNER. I don't know--you might state what it is.

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. I was called by Mr. Jack Chrichton, C-h-r-i-c-h-t-o-n (spelling)--I don't know how to spell his name right now, but I guess it is that, but I can find out in a day or two.

Mr. JENNER. And who is he?

Mr. MAMANTOV. He is a petroleum independent operator, and if I'm not mistaken, he is connected with the Army Reserve, Intelligence Service. And, he asked me if I would translate for the police department and then immediately Mr. Lumpkin called me.

Mr. JENNER. All right, that was your first----

Mr. MAMANTOV. This was a period of five minutes, I would say, maximum.

Mr. JENNER. This, then, was your first contact with or connection with this tragedy?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you then came to the Dallas City Police Department, did you?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. However, I called FBI about half an hour before the police called me. You see, I was in the dentist's office when I heard Lee Oswald's name, and when this name appeared on the radio, I felt it is my duty to notify the FBI that I know of him and knew fairly well his background here in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. And you so advised the FBI?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That was a half hour ahead of the time----

Mr. MAMANTOV. This was approximately, I would say----

Mr. JENNER. 4:30?

Mr. MAMANTOV. 4:30.

Mr. JENNER. I'll get into that background in a little while, Mr. Mamantov. You did go, then, to the Dallas City Police Station?

Mr. MAMANTOV. They sent a police car.

Mr. JENNER. To pick you up?

Mr. MAMANTOV. To pick me up--it was quite disturbing because there was sirens and red lights and the neighborhood was quite disturbed.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you reside at that time?

Mr. MAMANTOV. 6911 East Mockingbird.

Mr. JENNER. East Mockingbird?

Mr. MAMANTOV. East Mockingbird Lane.

Mr. JENNER. That's correct. And you were escorted into the Dallas City Police Station?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct and was introduced to Captain Fritz.

Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.

Mr. MAMANTOV. He took me into a room filled up with the detectives--before we entered that room, I had to pass through the hallway filled up with the newspaper and TV and people.

Mr. JENNER. You just went through that?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean, I just went through with Captain Fritz there that I saw.

Mr. JENNER. When you got into the room, now, whom did you see there?

Mr. MAMANTOV. When I got into the room I saw Marina, I saw Mrs. Paine, whom I knew, who has been once in our house, and I have numerous telephone conversations with her in regard to her learning Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Does Mrs. Gravitis live with you?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "our house," that's the house in which you, your wife and Mrs. Gravitis reside?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She resides with us since 1943--we never were separated.

Mr. JENNER. Is her first name Dorothy?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Dorothy, and I saw Mrs. Paine and I saw next to her a young woman with a young baby whom I assumed to be Marina Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen Marina Oswald in your life prior to that moment? Knowingly?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you ever met her prior to that time?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I met her after that, accidentally.

Mr. JENNER. No; this is prior--up to that moment, you had had no contact, no acquaintance whatsoever with her?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Nor with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; but Marina and my mother-in-law had telephone conversations from my home, so I knew of her quite a bit through Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Gravitis, but I never had seen her in person, but I never had talked to her before, so from that room I was taken into another small room, and after a while Mrs. Paine and Marina was brought in and she also had a baby.

Mr. JENNER. And whom else, in addition to you, was in the room?

Mr. MAMANTOV. There was a young detective, I forgot his name. Then, there was another tall detective who actually questioned Marina and for whom I interpreted.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember his name?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; but if I would see him I would place him.

Mr. JENNER. And those were the persons?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, there was another person, the agent of the FBI, who was taking notes and sitting across at the desk.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Is the name "Hosty" familiar to you?

Mr. MAMANTOV. It was "H", but I don't remember; but it was, either this young fellow that was the detective was Hosty, or FBI, but it started with "H".

Mr. JENNER. Well, it might be "H"--Hosty.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and I talked to him after that a few minutes, he will recognize me and I recognize him when we get together.

Mr. JENNER. You seem to be a man who has reasonably good powers of recall; would you start now, and I will try not to interrupt you, and relate as best you can recall, and as precisely as you can recall, at least the substance and the exact words of the questioning and the responses--the questioning of Marina and the responses she gave?

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. Shall I go ahead?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; just do it the way it comes naturally to you.

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. The problem is, I never tried to memorize this because--I mean--this was pure translation.

Mr. JENNER. And you were probably a little excited then, too, weren't you?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I was quite excited and I didn't feel like I should try to memorize it, but she was questioned if she lived at Mrs. Paine's residence in Irving----

Mr. JENNER. To which she responded?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She responded.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say? Did she respond in the affirmative, is what I was getting at?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes; she said she was living there.

Mr. JENNER. Do the best you can, and I'll try not to interrupt you, but I'll have to, I'm sure, at times.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the questions, but I would remember approximately what she was asked.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. She was asked if she lived with Mrs. Paine around that particular day and if she was that morning in Mrs. Paine's home. She answered positively then.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--I'm sure that positively is affirmative?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Affirmative.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, as long as we are now interrupted again, what time was this--5:30 or 6 o'clock.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say it's 5:30, because going to the police station I met my wife coming from work, which should be 5:30 or 6 o'clock, I would say. Then, she was asked if Oswald spent that night in Mrs. Paine's home at that time, that night from 21 to 22 of November.

Mr. JENNER. The previous evening?

Mr. MAMANTOV. The previous evening and including the night.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. MAMANTOV. She affirmed that. Then, how did he get up? She said he had an alarm clock on and this was the way he got up and he went into kitchen and supposedly had breakfast. They asked her also if usually she prepared breakfast for him, and if I remember right, she said usually she did, but this particular morning she didn't because she was tired and she had to get up to take care of her baby in an hour or so, so she didn't get up and he went into the kitchen and was supposed to eat breakfast. Now----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was she questioned, or did she say anything about whether, when he left the bedroom and went into the kitchen to make his breakfast, whether he returned to her and said goodby to her?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; as far as I remember he didn't return. I mean, I don't think the question was asked to her. Or, it is in my mind that he didn't return, relating the conversation to that particular time.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Mamantov, may I say this--I don't want any of my questions to induce you to make a response that you don't recall definitely.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I understand.

Mr. JENNER. There are bits of information that we have of things we would like to find out. Do you have a definite recollection that the subject was even brought up at that time, that is, whether he returned from the kitchen to the bedroom to say goodby to her before he left or are you refreshing your memory, is what I am getting at? If you have no recollection, I would prefer you say so.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'll put it this way. I remember conversations somewhere along the line that he did return to her room. I remember also when she got up she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast; apparently coffee was poured or prepared either by him or by her, which, I don't remember, and he didn't eat breakfast, and this was after he left, we'll say, a few minutes.

Mr. JENNER. Don't let me interrupt you here before you finish your answers--do I gather correctly that what you are saying is that she stated there that night that she did go out to the kitchen?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That morning.

Mr. JENNER. That morning--that she did go out to the kitchen that morning and she found that he had not prepared any breakfast?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'll put it this way. She apparently slept a little bit longer after he left, and when she got up and went into the kitchen she found out he didn't eat breakfast, which was surprising to her. From this I made my opinion that she usually prepared breakfast for him and she ate.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir; when you testified a moment ago that she said she usually prepared breakfast for him, were you then rationalizing from the circumstance you have just stated, or do you recall that she said that?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I understood--here's my problem--either I recall or I recall future instances from translating her life history.

Mr. JENNER. It is important, Mr. Mamantov, for you to recall and to exclude from your mind--it is very difficult I appreciate--and to exclude from your mind what you have learned and to exclude from your mind what you have learned afterwards; that is, after November 22d.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I realize that.

Mr. JENNER. What I am trying to get now is exactly to the best of your powers of recall, what was said on that occasion by her without your rationalizing from facts you recall as to what she might have said; do you understand?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I understand. As far as I know, she said that he didn't return backward--I mean--come back to her--she didn't get up at the time he was leaving. After a while she got up.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me; now, as a result of this further questioning it is your present recollection that at the time you were doing the translating you----

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. At the city police station, that she said was that he left the bedroom to make breakfast for himself, that he did not return to the bedroom, and she, because of being up during the night to care for the baby, she went back to rest or sleep and got up later on.

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say that she then went into the kitchen?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did she say what she found when she reached the kitchen?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She found that the coffee wasn't--I mean, or, she thought he didn't eat.

Mr. JENNER. He had not prepared breakfast, in fact?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Then, I also remember her saying, but I don't remember how the question was put to her, that she went into the garage to check her belongings which were stored in the garage, Mrs. Paine's garage, and she saw a grey blanket which appeared to her in a little bit different position than she remember it before.

Mr. JENNER. Did she describe the configuration, shape--form of the blanket?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's what I'm saying--I'll come to it. Then she was asked what was in that blanket before, why did she pay attention particularly to the blanket. She said he kept his gun in that blanket. Now, she also said--she was asked if she would remember the gun, how it looked, she said, "Probably--yes," she has seen not the whole gun but she has seen part of the gun wrapped in that grey blanket and at this moment the gun was brought in.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, she volunteered that when she got up and went to the kitchen, noticed that Oswald had not prepared any breakfast----

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. She then went to the garage; is that correct?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, or she was led to that question, if she had gone to the garage, and she said continuously that "I went." I assume that she was led to that question when she stated that she went to the garage.

Mr. JENNER. After she had inspected the kitchen?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say whether Mrs. Paine was up and about at that time?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. You don't remember anything about Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MAMANTOV. You see, Mrs. Paine also gave a statement later on after Marina finished.

Mr. JENNER. Let's stick with Marina for the moment.

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, otherwise I would be confused.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say why she went to the garage or was she asked, and did she respond on that subject?

Mr. MAMANTOV. To the best of my memory, she was asked and led to that question, if she had gone to the garage, if she had seen a blanket----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir; they could be asking her, in connection with the questions, to see whether she went to the blanket later in the day. Do you recall that the question--is it because of the questioning, or she voluntarily stated----

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; because of the question.

Mr. JENNER. Because of the questioning, that after she was in the kitchen that morning, at that time she then went into the garage for the purpose of examining the blanket and its contents? Just relax and think about it.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I'm afraid I wouldn't remember in such extent, if she went immediately or she went later or she went during the time when police was at Mrs. Paine's home, and I imagine those points are very important to you, and I don't remember at the moment, I mean, to the exact time.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; they are important--you see, your responses when you first approached this subject, the implication was she looked at the kitchen, and that she went immediately out into the garage.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'm afraid I cannot state positively whether she went during the day or whether she went immediately from the kitchen--I do not know.

Mr. JENNER. You cannot state it?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you that she went before noontime?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I cannot state.

Mr. JENNER. Or that she went out to the garage at any time before the police arrived, which was in midafternoon?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't remember. I do remember that she was asked about blanket, if she has seen blanket, and she has seen blanket in a very unusual, or she said in unusual shape as she said she has seen before, about 2 weeks. I remember her mentioning about 2 weeks to the questioning.

Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by that, sir, that the shape and form of the blanket when she saw it that day was different from the shape and configuration when she had seen the blanket prior thereto?

Mr. MAMANTOV. About 2 weeks--yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your answer was "yes?"

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; it was in different shape than she had seen before. After that the question was asked what was in this blanket. She said it was his gun, she was asked when did he purchase the gun, where did he get this gun, and she stated she didn't know and also probably he would bring the gun from the Soviet Union, and also was asked the question if she would recognize the gun if the gun would be shown to her, and at this moment the gun was brought in. Let me try to remember a little bit?

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In her responses to the questioning, did she say whether or not she had been aware of the presence of the gun and the blanket in the garage prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. MAMANTOV. This question was asked her. And, she gave a little bit evasive answer.

Mr. JENNER. You tell us what she said rather than you giving your opinion as to whether it was evasive.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, if I remember right, she said she didn't know if it were there.

Mr. JENNER. She did not know----

Mr. MAMANTOV. That it was there on that particular morning; however, she has seen in the past, well, she thought, if I remember right, that Lee took with him the gun and she was also asked----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, she testified or she stated in your presence and you translated it?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. That she was aware of the fact that the gun had been in the blanket in the garage?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, sometime in the past.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; did she say whether she had seen the gun in the blanket in the garage prior to November 22?

Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right--yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did she describe what she had seen in the blanket when she had discovered it prior to November 22?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what she said in that regard.

Mr. MAMANTOV. She saw the stock of the gun, which was dark brown--black, she said.

Mr. JENNER. These were responses of hers before the weapon was brought in the room?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. I want to stick to that period, before the weapon was actually brought into the room, and state what she said.

Mr. MAMANTOV. They asked her also at that time when did he purchase the gun and such as where. If I remember right, she said she didn't know, she stated also that he had had a gun in the Soviet Union. They asked her a question if it was a dark brown or black gun. She said, "Yes, it was the same color," and she said, "to me all guns are the same color," and then she was asked if she would recognize a gun if shown to her, and at that time the gun was brought in.

Mr. JENNER. Let's not go to that subject at the moment. I want to go back.

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say, if anything, as to what she saw or discovered when she went into the garage that morning, the morning of November 22, to examine the blanket?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; here, I cannot state exactly if it was morning, noon or time police arrived, when she saw the blanket without the gun, and this--I don't remember--here is my time lapse--whenever she saw it.

Mr. JENNER. But whenever she responded, whenever she saw it that day, what did she say as to what the package contained, if anything?

Mr. MAMANTOV. The blanket was, I'll put it this way, different position as she has seen in the past.

Mr. JENNER. You mean in a different position, in a different place in the garage?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; it was supposedly in the same place, but there wasn't anything in it.

Mr. JENNER. You mean it was in a different shape or form or condition?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--condition.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say what the different condition was?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember, but that attracted her attention. This I remember very well. She stated it attracted her attention--as she had seen before, so much I remember.

Mr. JENNER. Her attention was arrested by the fact that the condition, shape, form or configuration of the blanket package was different from what she had noticed it to have been in on prior occasions when she had seen it?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Evidently--if somebody, for instance, if you see a package in one shape and at different times, you see different shape.

Mr. JENNER. Did she describe the shape and form and condition of the package as she saw it prior to this particular occasion on November 22, what it looked like earlier, and then contrasting that with what it looked like on the occasion of November 22 when she saw it again?

Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, going back, she had seen the package of elongated form and for some reason she opened it and saw a gun, and knowing it was Lee's, at least a gun, and he didn't want her to touch his things, he was very particular, and after she opened a corner, she left it in same shape she had found it.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say whether she had pulled the gun entirely out of the package?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No. No.

Mr. JENNER. Just the butt end?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Just the stock end and she covered immediately and back so as a result, she--she didn't pull out all--she didn't open the package.

Mr. JENNER. Did they question her as to where the package was in the garage, precisely, on the two occasions, that is, when she had seen it before November 22 and the position it was located in in the garage when she saw it on November 22?

Mr. MAMANTOV. The question was asked and she answered, it was with her belongings which she couldn't bring into Mrs. Paine's home, and if I remember right, she said it was in one corner of the garage, and that particular day the blanket was in the same area, but was in a different shape or in a different condition. What it was, I don't know. It was in the garage in one of the corners.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say as to the difference and the content?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She said when she saw the blanket it didn't contain the gun.

Mr. JENNER. It did not contain the gun?

Mr. MAMANTOV. It did not contain the gun.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about whether the blanket's form or condition was, for purposes of illustration not for the purpose of placing words in your mouth, that the blanket was absolutely flat when she saw it on the 22d, whereas, prior thereto it appeared to contain what she discovered was a rifle?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about whether the package, the blanket package, was wrapped in any fashion, with string or any other wrapping of that character?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Was that subject brought up?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. At any time during the questioning was the blanket package brought into the room?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said when she was asked about her entry into the garage and her examination of the package as to whether anybody was with her when she did that?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I think--was police and Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. At the time that she examined the blanket?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Once for sure--I don't know what happened before that.

Mr. JENNER. Was she asked whether she had examined the blanket that day at any time prior to her examination of the blanket in the presence of Mrs. Paine and the police?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. But you do recall that she did testify or relate as to the incident you now have in mind that Mrs. Paine was present and the police were present?

Mr. MAMANTOV. On one occasion; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And is that the only occasion she was examined about, that is, her having entered the garage once and then only in the presence of the police?

Mr. MAMANTOV. This, I don't know for sure.

Mr. JENNER. It might have been that she testified to having gone to the garage on two occasions that day.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Sir, I don't remember for sure. I rather wouldn't like, as you say, to interpret--I would be very happy to relate everything I know. If you don't remember, you don't.

Mr. JENNER. May I emphasize over and over again, Mr. Mamantov, that you don't tell or say anything other than that which you recall in your mind took place around 6 o'clock on the 22d.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. So, let me impel you from any thought I have a desire for you to testify one way or the other.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Because I don't--all I want you to do is to tell, as best you can, your recollection of what took place.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't remember if she stated this or she didn't.

Mr. JENNER. I do want to ask you this--you don't want to exclude by this testimony the possibility that she did, that is, that she testified or might have said at that time that she had entered the garage on an earlier occasion sometime during the day, that is, prior to the time the police arrived.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't want to exclude it.

Mr. JENNER. You just don't have enough recollection at the moment to testify one way or the other on that?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I noticed that you did say that Marina related the fact that she had seen the rifle in a disassembled condition?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I didn't say so. I said, "Elongated package--she saw an elongated package," but I don't recall the size of the package, the size of the package she testified it was.

Mr. JENNER. I think you did testify earlier that Marina remarked that she had seen the gun in sections?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Today?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you can read it back--I haven't.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness Mamantov off the record.)

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you asked me the shape of the package she saw, and I related to you an elongated package and she opened one corner and she saw the stock of the gun so much--that I said--there--so much--you asked me.

Mr. JENNER. It's important, Miss Oliver, let's go back just so we will be certain of it and see if we can find it.

(At this point at the request of Counsel Jenner the reporter referred to previous testimony of the Witness Mamantov and reread the following:

("No, put it this way. I remember conversations somewhere along the line that he didn't return to her room. I remember also when she got up she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast, apparently coffee was poured or prepared either by him or by her, which, I don't remember, and he didn't eat breakfast and this was after he left, we'll say, a few minutes.")

Mr. JENNER. When the question was put to her as to why she went to the garage to examine the package and what motivated her in that direction, what did she say?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't remember. That is again coming to the point--I don't remember what time she saw--either she saw by herself or she saw during the time when police arrived.

Mr. JENNER. But, in either event, whether she went there on her own prior to the time the police arrived and then again, if that's the way it was, when the police did arrive, what did she say when, as you have testified, she was asked why she went to the garage to examine the package, if she said anything?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. When police arrived they asked her specific questions about particular blanket.

Mr. JENNER. What questions?

Mr. MAMANTOV. If the blanket was in the shape she saw today in relation to the shape she saw last time. She said, "No, it has different shape."

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, did the police ask her right off the bat whether the package in the garage, the blanket package in the garage, had a different configuration, or did they first question her, for example, as to whether her husband owned a gun and whether she was aware of the fact that he did own a gun and whether she was aware of the fact the gun was in or about the premises of the Paine's--what was the sequence, as you recall?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She was asked if she knew that the gun was at the premises of Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. The questioning, then, assumed that there was a gun, is that correct?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She was asked whether this gun--when at the Paines, whether she knew where the gun used to be, and then she said she hadn't seen gun since the gun--she saw last time--and this particular day when gun wasn't there. No; she never stated, and I don't think she was asked if she knew that the gun was there that particular morning. That, I don't know, but she was asked if she knew that the gun was with her belongings.

Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 22?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Prior to November 22--that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And her response was in the affirmative?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And your distinct recollection is that the blanket was not brought into the room at any time while you were there to exhibit to her?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Only physical item was gun.

Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is that it is true that the blanket was not brought into the room?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, the only physical item was brought in, was the gun itself, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And was the gun when brought in fully assembled?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did it have the telescopic sight on it?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did it have a sling, a leather sling, do you know what I mean by a sling?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I know what you mean, but I don't remember right now. I think it did, but I wouldn't be for sure--I wouldn't be sure of the statement.

Now, I don't know if it is important to you or not, she also stated when she was questioned before--where he purchased the gun, and if it was a gun which he had in the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. And what was her response?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Her response was that it is possible that this is the gun which he had in the Soviet Union. She cannot say one way or the other if this is a different gun or which he had before. Now, no person had a gun in the Soviet Union--I can say so much for sure and that's where I didn't like this.

Mr. JENNER. No; you just interjected your own observation, that is, no person had a gun in the Soviet Union--that was an observation on your part, not what she said.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; that's my observation, but maybe not to be--not to put it into the record, but I think it is very important when she went back--when she said that the gun was brought in from the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. Might have been?

Mr. MAMANTOV. It might have been--so, she didn't know. The question was asked when did he purchase, when and where he purchased it and she said, "I don't know. He had always guns. He always played with guns even in the Soviet Union. He had the gun and I don't know which gun was this." And she was asked a question if she would recognize the gun--she was asked the color of the gun, if this was the same gun or resembled the gun which he had in the Soviet Union. She said, to her all guns are dark and black and that's all--so much she said about it.

Mr. JENNER. Before we get to the gun itself, I would like to ask you some more questions.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Before we get to the gun itself--all right.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your answers that she either said or implied that when they were in Fort Worth, when they were in New Orleans, that he had the gun that she had in mind?

Mr. MAMANTOV. This particular gun?

Mr. JENNER. Whatever gun she had in mind.

Mr. MAMANTOV. She made statement this way: She said he always had guns, he always was interested in guns--this statement she made.

Mr. JENNER. And he always had a weapon?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, he always had a weapon.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about a pistol as distinguished from a rifle?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the question and I don't remember a reply.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when she was asked whether she examined the package on that day, was she then asked to state what she did in the examination of the package and what she found--would you state as chronologically as you can? Did she say, and this is a hypothetic, now, on my part--"I went into the garage, I looked for the blanket package, I saw the blanket package, I walked over to the blanket package, I stepped on it, or I lifted it up, or I opened it up"--was she questioned that closely?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember, questions like you stated.

Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned about whether she looked for or whether there was any other weapon different from or in addition to the weapon in the blanket package?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the question--neither question.

Mr. JENNER. Is it fair to say that your best recollection is that she was not examined on that subject?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say so--yes.

Mr. JENNER. At any time during this questioning was she asked whether she had seen her husband handle the weapon, that is, that the weapon she saw with him in his possession--unwrapped?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't remember, I don't think the question was asked.

Mr. JENNER. Was she asked whether she knew of her knowledge or information with respect to her husband's use of a rifle--whether it was a rifle, a pistol, or otherwise?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; she stated that he liked to hunt.

Mr. JENNER. Well, was she asked whether he hunted in Russia when he was in Russia?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes. She made statement that he also was hunting in Russia and supposedly was hunting here.

Mr. JENNER. She did say that her impression was that he hunted here in the United States?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--she said he was using his guns for hunting. She didn't say specifically which, but she said that he used to hunt in Russia but she didn't say specifically he hunted here.

Mr. JENNER. She did not say that he hunted in the United States?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No.

Mr. JENNER. From the evidence, they came over to this country in June 1962.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No--the question was asked if he hunted here or not and reply to why did he have the gun--because she said he had hunted in Russia, he always liked guns, he always played with the gun.

Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned at all on the subject whether he had hunted with this rifle or any other gun in the United States?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Not in my presence.

Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned on the subject of whether she had seen him or was aware of the fact, if it be the fact, that he occasionally or on one or more occasions had the gun, say, out in the yard of their home in New Orleans or out in the yard or courtyard in Fort Worth, sighting it and pulling the trigger--dry sighting; do you know what dry sighting is?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right--no, she wasn't asked.

Mr. JENNER. Was she asked in your presence whether there was an incident in which there was an attempt on the life of General Walker?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing about that at all?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Nothing about that.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, at the risk of boring you and the reporter, she was not questioned on this information when you were doing the translating or interpreting about any use of the rifle by him, dry sighting, hunting, or otherwise in the United States?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, not specifically, but this rifle--I'll put it this way--about her seeing him with a weapon.

Mr. JENNER. Any weapon?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Any weapon.

Mr. JENNER. All right, now, have you told us everything you can recall about the questions and answers and interplay up to the time the rifle was brought into the room? Is there anything else--don't be concerned about whether you think it is relative or not, anything that she said on this occasion is relevant to us.