Chapter XVI: Part 16

And Jeanne went to him and said in perfect Russian, "How are you, Comrade Mikoyan? Nice to know you." And he almost collapsed, because it was such a surprise for him that somebody went through all that security officers without being detected--because she was right there in that group. So she said--he asked her where she is from, and she says, "I am from Texas."

"What do you mean from Texas?"

She said, "Yes, I am from Texas." She said, "Why don't you come and visit us in Texas and I will give you a Russian dinner."

And Mikoyan said, "Thank you very much, some day I will come and see you."

So here was the Mikoyan incident.

Mr. JENNER. That is all of the circumstances of the so-called Mikoyan incident?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. It was pure happenstance and a bit of fun?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you, in fact, declined the same invitation?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I declined to go--purely for business reasons--because I didn't want my clients to think that I was buddy buddy with Mikoyan.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this trip of yours down through Mexico, and the Central American countries--wasn't that about the time of the Bay of Pigs invasion?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was indeed; yes. And we didn't know anything about it.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We didn't know anything about it.

Mr. JENNER. Your trip had nothing whatsoever to do with that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing to do with it--except I remember we arrived in Guatemala City, and by God you know we walked on the street, we were trying to get some visas to get to the next country--you have to get visas and permits to carry guns. We had to carry a revolver with us to protect us, because we were going constantly through a jungle. We did not follow any roads. We were all the time following the trails.

Mr. JENNER. The old Conquistador trails?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we carried two revolvers and a shotgun with us, And to be able to cross the border you had to get permit each time. That took us in Guatemala City quite some time. We were walking around the town trying to get a permit to Nicaragua, and to San Salvador, and to Honduras. And as we were walking on the street we saw a lot of white boys, dressed in civilian, but they looked like military men to me.

And I said to Jeanne, "By God, they look like American boys."

The consulate--we received our mail through the American consulate.

Mr. JENNER. In Guatemala City?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everywhere--Guatemala City, San Salvador--not Honduras, but in San Jose--everywhere we received our mail through the consulate or the Embassy. And I was asking the help of the consul there--could they help me to get a permit to go to Honduras and carry my shotgun there.

He said, "I am too busy today, I cannot do anything for you."

And then we left Guatemala City--2 days later--we read the paper on the road about the Bay of Pigs invasion. That is all we knew about it.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do on your trip through Mexico and the Central American countries?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we took--I took--we walked and found our way by the map, spoke to the people, collected samples.

Mr. JENNER. Samples of what?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Samples of rocks, of various rocks that seemed to have----

Mr. JENNER. How did you carry it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We sent them back--we carried--all the stuff we carried on the back of a mule. We had a big mule that could carry 150 pounds. This whole thing is recorded in a book I have written. It is a manuscript I have--600 pages--day for day description of our adventures. If you are interested, I will give it to you. The publishers don't seem to be interested. It is now in the hands of a publisher in France, and they may publish it.

Mr. JENNER. I had heard about that. I heard if it had a little more color it might be salable.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a little bit too dry. It is day by day--that is what I could do. Someday when I have more time, I will make it a little bit more colorful. But as it is now, it is a diary of our trip, day by day.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, that took quite some time each day to record what I saw, to record the geology, to record the observations I had of each place. Because we went to places that no white man has ever been in before, in many places. And certainly no geologist had ever visited before. We had some fascinating adventures. We were attacked many times. We were robbed. But we always came out all right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make movies of that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We have a movie made of it, which I have here with me, because I would like to show it--I showed it to many friends in Dallas and in New York. It is an 8 millimeter movie which has about 1,200 feet--three big reels. This movie seemed to be quite interesting to people who like the outdoors. It gives you a complete sequence of our trip.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get pretty native in the course of that trip?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we became completely native. We ate only what the natives ate. We drank what they drank. And we returned to civilization only once in awhile when we were in towns, in the big cities. Otherwise, we lived exactly like the natives. And that is how we were able to make a trip like that. We looked like Indians. They thought that we were Indians from somewhere. We were poorly dressed. All our cameras and equipment was covered by a piece of old rag, on top of that mule. In other words, we did not want to show to the people that we had money with us--we did carry money with us.

Mr. JENNER. Where did that trip end?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The trip ended exactly at the Panama Canal. At the end of the trip, we went to say hello to Mr. Farland, the U.S. Ambassador there. And we also met Mr. Telles, our Ambassador in Costa Rica. They know all about our trip. And there were many articles written about our trip in the local papers.

Mr. JENNER. You mean local in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Local in Dallas--and local papers in Central America, small local papers. It was a purely geological trip, plus a desire to be away from civilization for a while because of the death of my son. That, I think, is sufficient reason.

Mr. JENNER. It has no political implications whatsoever?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No political implications. I am not interested at all in politics. Naturally, when I was going there I could not help seeing what was going on. The dictatorship in Honduras, the civil war in Panama, the guerilla fights. But it is all recorded in my book.

But I had nothing to do with it.

Mr. JENNER. You went from Panama to where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We just arrived from the border of Texas to Panama. We performed one big chunk of--we covered a big chunk of territory which is about 5,000 miles, on foot. And, believe me, not many people can do it, you know.

Mr. JENNER. When you completed that trip----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When we completed this trip, we were very tired, and we decided to go and take a rest in Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you select Haiti?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, as I said before, I had been there many times as a tourist. I have a very close friend of my father's who lived in Haiti. I speak French. And I like the country. I said we are going to visit this old man, a friend of my father's.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Breitman; Michael Breitman. He used to be a very wealthy man in Russia--also involved in the oil industry in Russia, and in Czarist Russia--a friend of my father's. And I discovered that he lived in Haiti sometime in 1946 and 1947 when I went as a tourist there. And we became very close. He considered me almost like his son.

We went to visit him--I was worried that he might die, and he died very soon after our trip. And we stayed there for 2 months, relaxing, taking it easy. And I started preparing my contract with the Haitian Government at the same time.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Already then.

Mr. JENNER. Then you already had in mind the venture you are now--in which you are now engaged?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I already started then, you see. I made the first step. I received a letter--I still have it--the letter from the Minister of Finance--that they are interested in my project, which the project is to review all the mining resources of Haiti. They don't have anybody to do that. And we kept on working on it, working and working and working, corresponding back and forth, until finally there was the contract in March 1963. In other words, it took me 2 years to get that contract.

Mr. JENNER. Here, again, this is all business?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Purely business.

Mr. JENNER. No political or like considerations?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. You have never been a member of any subversive group?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; never have.

Mr. JENNER. Of what groups have you been a member? And of what groups are you a member?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not a member of any group. Maybe that is something against me, because I am not a member of any group. I am not a member--I am not interested. I am too busy.

Mr. JENNER. You are a member of the Petroleum Club in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you call that a group; yes.

Mr. JENNER. It is a group.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me all the societies or groups, whether you call them political or otherwise, of which you have been a member.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. None political. You call the Dallas Petroleum Club political?

Mr. JENNER. No.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I am a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club. I used to be a member of the Abilene Country Club. I used to be, because I don't live there any more.

I am a member of American Association of Petroleum Geologists.

I am a member of the American Association of Mining Engineers. I think my dues are due. Maybe they expelled me by now.

I am a member of the Dallas Society of Petroleum Geologists.

I am a member of the Abilene Society of Petroleum Geologists. I am a registered petroleum engineer in Colorado. That is about it.

Purely professional organizations.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever participated in the affairs of--whether you have been a member of--irrespective of whether you have been a member of, I should say--any political action group, even such things as the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; never even knew that it existed. I never even knew it existed.

You can see very clearly, I did not have time to do that. I am not interested in it. I told you before, I am not interested in politics, except when I want to improve something in our way of life.

Mr. JENNER. In our own way.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In our own way of life, then I start criticizing. But I certainly am not interested in somebody's political organization, because I am sufficiently independent to do it by myself.

Mr. JENNER. And even when you become interested, as you suggest, in improvement or change, that has been largely an individual activity on your part?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Occasionally I write letters to Congressmen--if you call that political action. I do. I write, I bitch very often. I write letters to the Congressmen and complain. I know the Congressman from Texas here, and I know--I write letters to people in Washington when I want to have something done about something.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you spent 2 months in Haiti.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you returned to the United States.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Returned to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you land?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We landed in--we came by Lykes--Lykes Line ship directly from Haiti to Louisiana, I think Port Arthur, La.

Mr. JENNER. Lake Charles?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lake Charles.

And the friends met us there and drove us back to Houston and then to Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Who were your friends that met you there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The friends there were two employees of Kerr-McGee Oil Co., by the name of George Kitchel, vice president, and Jim Savage, engineer.

Mr. JENNER. You had known Jim Savage for some time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you had known Kitchel for some time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. We are now into 1962, are we?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In the early part of the year?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you returned to Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We returned to Dallas. We took another apartment in the same place--very close to the same neighborhood we used to live--6628 Dickens Avenue. I felt an urge to write a report on our trip. I sat down and worked like hell writing this report. My wife started working--because we were getting short of money. We spent all the money on our trip--including this Haiti stay. And at the same time I started pursuing my profession and making oil deals like we do, doing consulting work, in Dallas.

Now, I should repeat again--I am glad you reminded me of some of those dates, because you have them written down, and I don't.

So I cannot vouch for some of the dates.

Mr. JENNER. Well, as a matter of fact, I have most of them in my head at the moment.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You have a better memory for dates than I do.

Mr. JENNER. Now we have you in 1962. Your wife went back to work for----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She had broken her contract with a very large manufacturer. She had a very good contract--to come on this trip with me. She gave up a job of $15,000 or $20,000 a year, to go on this trip with me. And she had a very hard time reestablishing herself in her profession of designer.

So we went through a rather difficult time there for a year, and she started working in the millinery department of Sanger-Harris in Dallas. It is a large department store in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this brings us to the summer of 1962.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in due course you met Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, before we get to that, what I would like to have you do for me is tell me about what I will describe in my words, and you use your own, the Russian emigre group or community or society in Dallas at or along about that time.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. There I knew them all, because both my wife and I like to speak Russian, and we like Russian cooking, mainly. This is our main interest in Russian society. They are all of the same type--in other words, they are all people who carry memories of Russia with them, and who became, I think, perfect American citizens.

Some of them are a little bit to the left, others are a little bit to the right, but all within the limits of true democracy.

One of them is, I think, leaning towards excessive rightist tendencies.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is a geologist, for Sun Oil Co. His name is Ilya Mamantov.

I know them all very well. They are very decent people, all of them.

He, I think, is a little bit too much again on this Birch Society group, because he works for a large company.

Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection as to some of these people. Voshinin. What is his first name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Igor.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov's mother-in-law, Gravitis--Dorothy Gravitis?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just met her once or twice--hardly spoken to her.

Mr. JENNER. The Clarks?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know them very well.

Mr. JENNER. Max Clark?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Max and his wife, Gali.

Mr. JENNER. Gali is of Russian derivation?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Russian descent, born in France of the upper society in Russia--she was born Princess Sherbatov. They are families better than Cabots and Lodges here in the States.

Mr. JENNER. What about Mr. Clark?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Clark is a Texan of an excellent background, who is a lawyer, as you know.

Mr. JENNER. A lady by the name of Khrystinik?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't know. I don't know her. Maybe you don't pronounce correctly her name.

Mr. JENNER. That may well be.

Paul Raigorodsky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is another Russian who is very successful in business, a Republican, a good friend of mine, I think. For years and years.

Mr. JENNER. Let me see some others that come to my mind.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt, I made a mistake with respect to one name. I said it was Khrystinik. I was in error. It is Lydia Dymitruk.

You are acquainted with her?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very slightly.

Mr. JENNER. What I am directing my attention to now, sir; is people forming part of the Russian, what I call, community in the Dallas, Fort Worth, Irving area.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Ray. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray, and Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think she is Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Which one?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Either one of them--the one who is in the advertising business.

Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He is a leader of the community, is he?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What is their history?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, she is----

Mr. JENNER. I mean derivation.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is American.

Mr. JENNER. He is a native American. And she is----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is a Russian, I think of Persian origin, or brought up in Persia. I am not so sure where she was born. But she speaks very good Russian. She is I think Greek Orthodox, which means of Russian parentage.

Mr. JENNER. Tatiana Biggers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The name sounds familiar to me, but I don't think I know it.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Teofil Meller?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know only the father, Peter Gregory, not the son.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I know them.

Mr. JENNER. Does my calling your attention to the few people I have named refresh your recollection as to others who are part of the Russian community?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, there are others.

Mr. JENNER. I am thinking primarily of the Russian group who met the Oswalds.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know who of them might have met the Oswalds.

Mr. JENNER. What about Sam Ballen?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is an American, but he knows a few Russians. And he met Oswald just once, I guess. I think he is a good friend of Voshinin--of mine, and probably knows the Fords. I don't think he knows the others. Maybe he does. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Having in mind this group of people----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, then the priest must know them all--the Russian priest.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is an American, but he is a Greek Orthodox priest there.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Father Dimitri.

Mr. JENNER. Father Dimitri--he is from Houston, is he not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, he is the one who is in charge of the Greek Orthodox Church in Dallas, and he is also a professor at SMU, professor of Spanish at SMU.

Mr. JENNER. In that connection, there are two----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know that he knows Marina.

Mr. JENNER. There are two Greek Orthodox Churches, are there not, or sects or groups, in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me how that developed.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it is just some sort of schism in the Greek Orthodox Church. I am not too interested in religion, so I could not tell you how it originated. But anyway, one church seems to be purely Russian, and the other one seems to have a lot of Americans in it. The one that Father Dimitri is the head of--he is an American and quite a large membership of Americans--they have converted. And the services are in English, although the others--some services are in Russian also.

Sometimes he has visiting priests. But I don't know why they are segregated into two groups.

Mr. JENNER. Mr Raigorodsky is interested in the old guard group, let us call it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; probably, that is right.

Mr. JENNER. And also Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but Raigorodsky supports also the other group.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; he does.

Now, are the acquaintances largely formed, when new people come into Dallas, through these church groups?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; most of the time I would say so.

Mr. JENNER. Now, at least during the time--I don't know what your propensities are at the moment, but you were somewhat irreligious when you were in Dallas, were you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I actually contributed to this church, to the formation of that first church, that Raigorodsky was interested in, the old guard church.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I actually organized even a choir. But then I got less interested in it. I didn't like the priest, you know.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't like Father Dimitri?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the previous one.

Mr. JENNER. What was his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I forgot his name. He is in South Africa now. It was some time ago. It was 10 years ago maybe. He was sent to South Africa. Let them convert the Negroes there, in South Africa.

Mr. JENNER. It has been said or reported by--from a few sources, during the course of your lifetime that you were an atheist; is that correct?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I am more or less an agnostic. I would not call myself an atheist; an agnostic. I do not believe in organized religion. Sometimes if I see a group like that, like the Russian group there, I wanted to help them a little bit to be together. And it is amusing to meet those people. So I contributed a little money and a little bit of my time for the services--for instance, as I said, to sing in the church. But I do not go for going every Sunday to church, if that is the answer.

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And especially I do not believe in trying to convert people--constantly they push to convert people. But I go occasionally--on some holidays I go to church, to be with them, and to see the group, because I like many of those people.

Mr. JENNER. That attitude on your part, of agnosticism, whatever you have explained it to be, I take it does not arise out of any interest or belief in communism?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Communists are----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Communism is a religion, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that is what they say, in any event. They seek to stamp out religion as we understand it in Russia, do they not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I understand that the Greek Orthodox Church is prosperous in Soviet Russia, quite prosperous. Maybe that is the schism that they have in the church, the schism between the two--maybe one of those churches is closer to the Communist Greek Orthodox denomination.

Mr. JENNER. But this is speculation on your part?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is speculation on my part. I don't know for sure.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you are an ebullient person, you like to mix with others?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; not always, you know, because I can stand for a year to be in the jungle.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. But when you are in, let us say, Dallas or other towns, and in your own community, you are an ebullient person, you are gregarious, you like to be with people?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly.

Mr. JENNER. It is suggested by some people you are also unorthodox in your social habits.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; probably. What do they say--what do they mean?

Mr. JENNER. Well, you are prone to be a little----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Shock people.

Mr. JENNER. Shock people; yes. That is generally so?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And why do you do that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it is interesting to see people's reaction--if you shock them, it is amusing to get people out of their boredom. Sometimes life is very boring.

Mr. JENNER. And get you out of your boredom, too?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe my boredom also.

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But generally people like to be asked provocative questions and to be given provocative answers. I think so, at least.

Mr. JENNER. You are a man--I will put it this way----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I hope so.

Mr. JENNER. You like to have fun?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. There has been some suggestion that maybe you could be a little more serious-minded?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It certainly has been suggested.

Mr. JENNER. It has even been said you might grow up a little bit?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you are fun-loving?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right. That I am. Well, I don't believe, you know, in leading a life as if you were half dead. Might as well enjoy it, your life, to the fullest extent.

Mr. JENNER. I am trying to paint a picture here, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, of the milieu or background in Dallas when you first met the Oswalds, what kind of a community it was.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand.

Mr. JENNER. How you moved around in it, and what part you played in it, and what part your wife played in it. I gather that the community of which you speak, the people of Russian derivation, were close, you saw a good deal of them?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is close because there are not many. It is not like New York--although in New York I know also thousands of Russians, and in Philadelphia, and so on, and so forth. But mainly in Dallas there are only maybe, as you know, 30 families, maybe 25 families, all in all. So they are a little bit closer together. And a very pleasant relationship--because they are all good people--and with a few exceptions I think we all like each other, and used to get along very well, until Oswald appeared on the horizon.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I want to get to that.

I want this to be as spontaneous on your part as possible, rather than coming by any suggestion from me. Would you try and put in your own words this Russian community as it was when Oswald and Marina came to the Dallas area, Fort Worth, in June of 1962--without involving them now. What was the milieu and the background of the situation?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, a purely social group, a little bit divided by classes. You see what I mean?

Mr. JENNER. No; I don't.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There was a little differentiation in classes there.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell us about it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In other words, people with good education and a little bit more money rather were together, and it is not so much a question of money as a question of good education, and of background. And Bouhe comes from an excellent family. This Gali Clark, of course, comes from a No. 1 family of Russia. Paul Raigorodsky comes from an excellent family, excellent education. Those were the people with whom we were very close.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a man by the name of Zavoico?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is----

Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Basil.

Mr. JENNER. He lives in Connecticut now?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He is a wealthy man?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Relatively wealthy man, well-to-do. He has had many, many, many years--many more than all of us, in the oil business.

Mr. JENNER. Never part of the community?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We all knew him. Because there are so few people in this geological field. And he is an old acquaintance of mine.

Mr. JENNER. Now, there was a Professor Jitkoff in Houston?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I just met him once or twice. I know his wife better.

Mr. JENNER. Is his wife also a Russian emigre?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she is of Armenian, or Russian and Armenian, extraction.

Mr. JENNER. In what connection did you meet him?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Already a long time ago. Oh, yes; I met him through another Russian, through ballerina, a Russian ballerina, another one who lived there--Natasha Krosofska, a famous ballerina.

Mr. JENNER. I am thinking of another name in Dallas, Mrs. Helen Leslie.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is her stepmother--the stepmother of the ballerina.

Mr. JENNER. She was part of the Russian group?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; also from a typical old guard family--really hundred percent. To show you the atmosphere--who does not believe there are any new houses built in Russia today? She said in her opinion the Russia of today doesn't have any new houses, none whatsoever--only the old palaces from the czarist days.

Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The really backward type old guard people. I am glad that you made such a distinction there.

Mr. JENNER. Is this old guard group a group that would be inclined to believe that if an American went to Russia and came back with a Russian wife, that that necessarily would mean that he must have had some connections of some kind with the Communists in order to get a Russian wife out of Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an interesting question. They might believe anything, because they think that the Russians are such devils that they would go to any extent of diabolical combinations to do something like that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, among the Russian emigre group in Dallas, did you ever know of anybody that you even thought might be a Communist?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not a single one.

Mr. JENNER. Or have any leanings toward communism?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no leanings even. I am probably the most leftest of them all.

Mr. JENNER. And you do not----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And as you know, I am not a member of any party.

Mr. JENNER. And you do not regard yourself as a Communist?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Not only do I not regard--I just am not. But I am probably the only one who has been in the Communist country, because of my job with ICA, and also, I forgot to tell you that I had visited Poland in 1958, after my job with ICA. I went to visit Poland, as a tourist, to see what happened to my ex-country. I just went there for a period of 10 days, to Warsaw, and then went to Sweden from there, and then returned back to the States.

Mr. JENNER. This was after----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. After I finish my job in Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. Give me--I am going to pose a hypothetical to you. Let us assume that a Russian couple would come to Dallas, let us say right now--no friends, not know anybody in Dallas. What would normally happen? As soon as you became acquainted with the fact, or the community--the Russian group became acquainted with the fact that there was a Russian couple?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They would be exceedingly interested, naturally.

Mr. JENNER. Curious?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exceedingly curious.

Mr. JENNER. Now, if you were there, would that include you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your wife?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, aside from us--the most curious would be George Bouhe, because he actually met us first--the first in Dallas--he told us about Oswald, as far as I remember. Because he is curious by nature. He wants to know what is going on. He wants to convert them to the Greek Orthodox Church, and so on.

Mr. JENNER. Would there be any effort to help these people become acquainted throughout the community?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If they--if that couple came from Soviet Russia, from the Soviet Union, you mean?

Mr. JENNER. Well, let's assume that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the old guard would not do anything. They would be curious, but--they might meet them and very soon afterwards they would get disgusted with them, because what they would say to them would not fit with their beliefs. And we know that Soviet Russia is a going concern. To them it is not, it does not exist. It just isn't there.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when did you first meet either Marina--I will put it this way: When did you first hear----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first time----

Mr. JENNER. Of either of these people--Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as I remember, George Bouhe, who is a close friend of mine, and a very curious individual, told me that there is an interesting couple in Fort Worth, and that the Clarks know them already--Max Clark and Gali--they know them already. Somebody read about them in the paper--I don't know exactly, I don't remember the exact wording any more--that somebody read about them in the paper, maybe Mr. Gregory, and discovered them, made a discovery.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But we heard from George Bouhe the first time.

Mr. JENNER. At this time were you aware that there had been an American who had gone to the Soviet Union and attempted to defect to the Soviet Union?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that he had returned to the United States?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is what I heard from George Bouhe.

Mr. JENNER. That was the first you ever knew anything at all about----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard about them, never heard anything about them before.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is that likewise true of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Same thing. I think we were both together when this conversation took place.

Mr. JENNER. When did it take place?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could not tell you the date. I think in the summer of 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your best recollection of what George Bouhe said to you about the Oswalds on that occasion.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He said rather a complimentary account of them--I don't think he met them yet. I think he just heard about them.

Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection he had just heard about them, and heard she is very pretty, and comes from an excellent family--supposedly. And he is a fellow who got disappointed in Soviet Russia and returned to the United States, and that met with George Bouhe's approval--somebody who did that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think he even knew that he had been an ex-Marine, and all that. I don't think he knew anything about that.

Mr. JENNER. When George Bouhe spoke to you then--have you exhausted your recollections as to the conversation right at that point?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think about it. I just remember that I got curious, what kind of a fellow he is, and what kind of a woman she is.

Mr. JENNER. Were you particularly interested when you heard she was pretty?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; not particularly. No; because--but it is nice to know a good-looking girl rather than to know some monster.

Mr. JENNER. You have----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am always curious to find somebody better looking than horrible. We are talking about serious things.

Mr. JENNER. Well, it is part of the atmosphere, Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You have always had an interest in pretty women, have you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure, sure; naturally.

Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued and courted them?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I still do, I hope. Until the day I die. But anyway, it was not really so. It was just an interesting couple who were--it pleased us to know that here is a pretty girl from Soviet Russia that had arrived, because we all picture Soviet Russian women like a commando--big, fat women, working in a brick factory.

Mr. JENNER. You were curious to find out more about them, were you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Again, now, my recollections are a little bit vague on that.

I tried, both my wife and I, hundreds of times to recall how exactly we met the Oswalds. But they were out of our mind completely, because so many things happened in the meantime. So please do not take it for sure how I first met them.

Mr. JENNER. We want your best recollection.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My best recollection--I even cannot recall who gave me their address in Fort Worth. I don't recall that. Either George Bouhe or the Clarks, because the Clarks knew them already, Max and Gali Clark, because they were from Fort Worth, you see.

And I think a few days later somebody told me that they live in dire poverty. Somewhere in the slums of Fort Worth.

I had to go on business to Fort Worth with my very close friend, Colonel Orlov.

Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lawrence Orlov--he is an American, but he has a Russian name for some reason--maybe his great-grandfather came from Russia.

And to my best recollection, Lawrence and I were on some business in Fort Worth, and I told him let's go and meet those people, and the two of us drove to this slum area in Fort Worth and knocked at the door, and here was Marina and the baby. Oswald was not there.

Mr. JENNER. This was during the daytime?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Late in the afternoon, after business hours, 5 o'clock.

Mr. JENNER. You and Colonel Orlov?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Colonel Orlov.

Mr. JENNER. She answered the door.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You identified yourself?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I said a few words in Russian, I said we are friends of George Bouhe. I think he was already helping them a little bit, giving them something for the baby or something. I think he had already been in--he helps everybody. He has been helping her especially. And so the introduction was fine. And I found her not particularly pretty, but a lost soul, living in the slums, not knowing one single word of English, with this rather unhealthy looking baby, horrible surroundings.

Mr. JENNER. Now we are interested in a couple of things. You found that she knew substantially no English?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No English at all at that time. I think she knew maybe--I remember that I asked her, "How do you buy things in the store," and she said, "I point with my finger and I can say 'yes' and 'no'." That is all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you go into the home--was it a house or apartment?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a shack, near Sears Roebuck, as far as I remember--near that area. I don't know if you went down there. A little shack, which had only two rooms, sort of clapboard-type building. Very poorly furnished, decrepit, on a dusty road. The road even was not paved.

Mr. JENNER. What did you talk to her about?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just asked her how she likes it here, and how she was getting along, does she get enough food, something like that--completely meaningless conversation.

And I think Lawrence was there, you know, but he did not understand what I was saying. He doesn't know Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ask about her husband?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I said, "Well, I would like to meet your husband." She said he should be back from work soon. She asked me to sit down, offered me something to drink, I think--she had some sherry or something in the house. This is the best of my recollection.

And Lawrence sat down, and found her very nice. And then after a little while, Oswald, Lee appeared.

Mr. JENNER. You say Lee appeared?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Lee appeared.

Mr. JENNER. Lee appeared. You had never seen him before?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never seen him before.

Mr. JENNER. And he came in?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He came in.

Mr. JENNER. What happened, and what was said?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he loved to speak Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Did you introduce yourself? And explain why you were there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I said, "I'm a friend of George Bouhe, I want to see how you are getting along."

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak in Russian or English?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In English at first, and then he switched to Russian.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of his command of Russian?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he spoke fluent Russian, but with a foreign accent, and made mistakes, grammatical mistakes, but had remarkable fluency in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. It was remarkable?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Remarkable--for a fellow of his background and education, it is remarkable how fast he learned it. But he loved the language. He loved to speak it. He preferred to speak Russian than English any time. He always would switch from English to Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss life in Russia, how he got there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think the first time. I don't think the first time I said anything at all, you know. Possibly he told me that he had been in Minsk, and that got me curious, because I had lived in Minsk as a child, and my father was the so-called nobility marshal of Minsk. He got me curious, you know.

But I do not recall for sure whether it was the first time I met him or the second time or the third time. I don't remember. I think it was a very short meeting the first time, because Lawrence Orlov was there, and he wanted to get back home, so we just said, "Well, we will see you," and possibly Marina had mentioned that her baby needed--that she needed some medical attention with her teeth, and that the baby had not been inoculated. Possibly that was that time. But I am not so sure.

Mr. JENNER. At least there was a time when that did arise?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Her need for dental care, some attention needed to be given to the child?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your impression was the child looked rather on the sickly side?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very much so. It was kind of a big head, bald big head, looked like Khrushchev, the child--looked like an undergrown Khrushchev. I always teased her about the fact that the baby looked like Khrushchev.

Mr. JENNER. I don't want to prod you, because I want you to tell the story in your own words.

Now, you had this visit, and you returned home?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think the first visit was very short, and we drove back with Lawrence, and I remember on the way we discussed that couple, and both had a lot of sympathy for her especially. But he also struck me as a very sympathetic fellow.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Give me your impression of him at that time--your first impression.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first impression and the last impression remain more or less the same. I could never get mad at this fellow.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes he was obnoxious. I don't know. I had a liking for him. I always had a liking for him. There was something charming about him, there was some--I don't know. I just liked the guy--that is all.

Mr. JENNER. When you reached home, you reported on this----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You know, he was very humble--with me he was very humble. If somebody expressed an interest in him, he blossomed, absolutely blossomed. If you asked him some questions about him, he was just out of this world. That was more or less the reason that I think he liked me very much.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; he did. It is so reported, and Marina has so said.

Well, that first visit didn't give you any opportunity to observe the relations between Marina and Lee, I assume?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I already noticed then that the couple--that they were not getting along, right away.

Mr. JENNER. What made you have that impression?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, there was a strained relationship there. You could feel that. And, you know how it is--you can see that the couple--that they are not very happy. You could feel that. And he was not particularly nice with her. He didn't kiss her. It wasn't a loving husband who would come home and smile and kiss his wife, and so on and so forth. He was just indifferent with her. He was more interested in talking to me than to her. That type of attitude.

Mr. JENNER. But you did notice throughout all your acquaintance with him that he blossomed when you paid attention to him, let us say?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. You drew him into conversation or situations--especially when you asked something about him?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly. I think that is his main characteristic. He wanted people to be interested in him, not in Marina. And she remained quite often in the background.

Later on, even in conversation she would remain in the background, and he would do the talking.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have an arrogant attitude?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; with me he has never been arrogant. Even when we came to the incident, you know, when we took the baby away from him, and Marina away from him later--you know that?

Mr. JENNER. I want to get that in sequence. But you did it yourself, did you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife and I; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, why do you not just go along and tell me as things develop. And how attitudes changed, and everything.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, then we started getting reports, you know, from George Bouhe and the Clarks about them. We didn't see them very often.

Mr. JENNER. Please, I don't want you to say you didn't see them very often. Maybe you didn't.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I want to know how this developed.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well----

Mr. JENNER. When next did you see them, after this initial event?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't remember. I don't remember. But I do know that we saw Marina very soon afterward, because either my wife went to get her or my daughter went to get her--I don't remember that any more--to take her to the hospital. Or maybe George Bouhe brought her to our house so that my wife, who was free at the time, could take her to the dental clinic. I think that was the next time that we saw Marina. Maybe a few days later.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, it was before Marina went to live with the Mellers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it was before Marina went to live with the Taylors?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

She never lived with the Taylors. I think she spent 1 night with them, and that is all. She lived, I think--I think both of them lived somewhere in the neighborhood. I think she spent 1 night with my daughter, when she happened to be in Dallas for this medical care. And since they are about the age of my daughter--she is a little bit older, but about the same age--I don't remember how it happened, but either I or my wife introduced Marina to my daughter, and also Lee. This is very vague in my mind, what happened there.

Mr. JENNER. Well, your recollection is that within a few days George Bouhe brought Marina to your home?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of having your wife take Marina to get some dental care?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And where was she taken?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was taken to the Baylor Dental Clinic.

Mr. JENNER. That is located where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is right in the center of Dallas, near the Slaughter Hospital--what a name for a hospital. It is the name of the man who founded it.

Well, the dental clinic is right there next door. They give you dental care gratis, or almost for nothing.

George Bouhe was giving her money, by the way.

Mr. JENNER. He was giving her money?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean small amounts of money, you know, either for injections or something like that--because she didn't have anything.

Mr. JENNER. She was destitute, was she?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Completely destitute--because Lee was at the time losing his job. I don't recall when he told me that--maybe already at the first meeting. He told me that he was about to lose his job. He was working somewhere in Fort Worth as a manual laborer, some ironworker.

Mr. JENNER. Leslie Welding Co.?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't know the name of it. This company was going bankrupt, or that he was going to lose his job. At least that was his version. Maybe he was fired.

Mr. JENNER. That was his version. That wasn't the fact.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a fact?

Mr. JENNER. It was not. Your wife also took the baby for some medical care?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Now, this I am not so sure. She told Marina where to go, and told her, "You have to give the baby such and such injections." And this I remember well--that she didn't do it. She didn't go to that children's clinic, because of pure negligence. She is that type of a girl--very negligent, poor mother, very poor mother. Loved the child, but a poor mother that doesn't pay much attention. And what amazed us, you know, that she, having been a pharmacist in Russia, did not know anything about the good care of the children, nothing.

Mr. JENNER. How did you find out she had been a pharmacist in Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that eventually came--the second time or the third time that we met her--she told us the story of her life.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to what she told you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, she said exactly her story of her life as she told me, that she comes from a family of ex-Czarist officers. That her father had been a Czarist officer of some kind--you see what I mean? I don't remember whether it was navy or army. I don't recall it any more. That her mother remarried, and that her stepfather did not treat her well. That they moved--I think they lived in Leningrad when she was a child. That eventually they moved to Minsk. I don't remember what her father's profession was.

One thing I remember--that one of her uncles was a big shot Government official, something like that--colonel or something like that. That I remember she told me.

And then she went to this school of pharmacists, I think in Minsk, and graduated as a pharmacist. And one day she was walking by this river, which I also remember, in Minsk--the River Svisloch, which crosses the whole town, and where there are some new apartment buildings built, and in one of those apartment buildings there were very nice apartments, and that is where the foreigners lived.