Chapter XXVI: Part 26

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me. And I had taken Mrs. Ford's number that day, and gave this number to Marina over the phone. Mrs. Ford and I had talked about whether Marina should be encouraged herself to write something just from the aspect of her financial need, and that this might ease the finances, and I was hopeful that Mrs. Ford, more fluent in Russian than I, would help Marina in a decision relative to this matter. Marina said to me, "They don't know that I'm telephoning you."

Mr. JENNER. They don't know?

Mrs. PAINE. That is all she said, and I didn't know to whom the "they" referred. But, because of that, I did not mention to the press or to friends that she had called, with the exception of Michael, feeling that in time she would certainly contact me again.

Mr. JENNER. Has she?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, she wrote me a Christmas card with a few sentences on it.

Mr. JENNER. We have that in evidence, have we?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; that is part of the postcorrespondence I didn't suppose you cared about. You can pick that up in Irving.

Mr. JENNER. May I see it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, you certainly may see it, and I'll translate it for you.

The card conveys greetings to me and my family for Christmas, thanked me again for all my generosity. I felt overthanked because I didn't feel I had done very much. And said she was sorry that our friendship had ended so badly.

Mr. JENNER. She said this in the note? The answer is yes?

Mrs. PAINE. The answer is yes. And I was surprised and a little hurt at the implication of its being over. I have already said that I went out to Robert Oswald's home in an effort to inquire of him and his wife what my best role might be as a friend towards Marina, or trying to express friendship to Marina at this time. I felt that possibly she was being advised not to contact me or that it was more difficult for the Secret Service to keep her location unknown if I had any contact with her or that they thought so at least. In fact, of course, I knew where she was anyway. And I also recalled something I will put in here that occurred as we were watching the television set after it was announced that the President was shot. I said, "and it happened in our city. I am going to move back east." And she knew, of course, not only because of this statement but because of the many things I have done which I have reported at that time that I was terribly grieved at Kennedy's death. And I wondered if she wouldn't possibly feel that I couldn't forgive her for simply being the wife of the accused assassin. So that I wanted to somehow convey to her that I didn't hold her guilty or carry any animosity toward her. And in the situation I just didn't know how to convey this. What I did was to write her letters talking about normal things, but requesting a reply, and I didn't get a reply.

Mr. JENNER. You did not?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a feeling that left uninfluenced and free to do as she might wish to do, that Marina is still friendly with you and regards you well and would be in contact with you?

Mrs. PAINE. I have a feeling that left uninfluenced, she would have certainly remained friendly to me. If she suddenly now became uninfluenced, and perhaps she has become uninfluenced, it doesn't erase a period of influence that may have affected and may continue to affect her feelings toward me. I don't know what she has said or what was suggested about me to her, and we didn't get into anything of this nature at the one brief meeting on March 9. I didn't feel it appropriate. But a lot has passed. She was, after all--it has already been longer that I have not seen her, had no contact with her during a very trying and significant period in her life. That period was longer than the whole period she stayed with me. So much has happened, and I just don't know.

Mr. JENNER. When you visited her on March 9, was it at her present home in Richardson, Tex.?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I had asked Mrs. Ford if I could come and make a tape recording at her house with her reading a Russian beginning reader text onto the tape so that I could use this to improve my pronunciation and to use it with my one Russian student, and she said she would be glad to help me with that recording, glad to help any time when someone wanted to learn Russian. We neither one could do it that week, but she called me back a week later and said that she thought it would be nice if Marina made the recording, since Marina----

Mr. JENNER. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford?

Mrs. PAINE. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford and she suggested that I come to her house on March the 9th and we would go from her house to Marina's house and make a recording and, of course, I was pleased with the opportunity to see Marina whether or not it involved making a recording that night.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. This was at night?

Mrs. PAINE. It was in the evening; yes. As it turned out, we stayed at Mrs. Ford's. We did not go to Marina's house. Marina said to me----

Mr. JENNER. Marina was at Mrs. Ford's when you arrived?

Mrs. PAINE. Was at Mrs. Ford's when I arrived and we stayed there the entire time during the visit. Marina explained she didn't have her furniture yet in her house and she would like to wait and invite me when she had her own home as she wanted it, and this, I think, is quite accurate. She likes things to look nice. I think she was pleased to have a home of her own.

Mr. JENNER. Did you girls have a general conversation apart from your immediate objective of having a recording?

Mrs. PAINE. We had primarily a nice visit. We did then do a recording, also. As it turned out, Mrs. Ford did the reading, because Marina really needed to take care of June, who was there, also.

Mr. JENNER. Was your impression of Marina at that time that she was friendly or at least that she was not averse?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She was friendly. She said she was fearful that I might be angry with her for her not having answered my letters, and by making reference to the content of several of the letters I answered my own unspoken question as to whether she had received them. She had.

Mr. JENNER. She has?

Mrs. PAINE. She recognized each of those things to which I referred.

Mr. JENNER. Things she mentioned during the course of this meeting?

Mrs. PAINE. Indicated that she had received my letters.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; indicated to you that she had received them.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and she said she was fearful that I would be angry with her for not having answered. But she said that Mr. Martin had advised her not to write to me or reply, and that she hoped I had understood that something of this nature was affecting her, and that this was why she was not writing. I asked about the change from having Thorne as a lawyer and Martin as a business advisor, to Mr. McKenzie as a lawyer, and she thought that was a good and necessary change, was relieved that this was being done. I said that I had talked with Mr. Thorne.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mrs. PAINE. It was the first Friday or Saturday in January.

Mr. JENNER. Of this year?

Mrs. PAINE. Of 1964, and I asked him whether she, whether Marina, had delegated power of attorney to anyone, and Mr. Thorne told me no.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you make that inquiry?

Mrs. PAINE. Why did I make that inquiry?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. At that time? I was concerned. I had no idea what sort of men these were or what arrangements they had made, and it seemed to me I had heard that Thorne had told me himself that he conducted all his business with Marina in English, and I thought this cannot be very detailed, because I knew her English to be quite poor.

Mr. JENNER. Were you troubled about her understanding of what was being done?

Mrs. PAINE. I was troubled about her understanding of what she had signed, and I wanted to know what powers she had delegated to someone else. Therefore, I asked specifically about power of attorney, and he told me, no, she had not delegated that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a sense of responsibility in this area?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. But this was not mere curiosity or meddling on your part?

Mrs. PAINE. I felt that it was possible that she was being protected from her friends, and that had no one----

Mr. JENNER. You mean isolated from her friends?

Mrs. PAINE. All right; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you really mean that, isolated rather than protected from?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, that someone may have thought she should not talk to me.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. And, further, I learned that she hadn't spoken at an earlier time, at that time, to Mrs. Ford. I did not know of anyone who spoke Russian except for official translators for Secret Service or the FBI who had been to see her, and this seemed to me wrong. So I was concerned. And when I reported this conversation with Mr. Thorne to Marina, she said, "Well, that is a lie" and I said----

Mr. JENNER. She said----

Mrs. PAINE. That is a lie. She had delegated power of attorney, and I knew that at this time I was reporting the conversation to Marina on the 9th of March because I had read it in the paper.

Mr. JENNER. You had learned it in the meantime?

Mrs. PAINE. Had learned in the meantime that she had delegated power of attorney.

Mr. JENNER. I have been seeking all that occurred in your visit with Marina and Mrs. Ford in the Ford home on March 9. Have you completed that? Is there anything you would like to add?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I would like to add that Mrs. Ford was out for a brief period. She went to the washerteria to pick up some clothes that had been at the drier so that for a time Marina and I were alone perfectly free to say anything we wanted.

Mr. JENNER. And during that period was your conversation, your visit with Marina pleasant?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Free and open? What reaction did you get during the period you were alone with her as to her feeling or regard or how she felt about you?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I felt she was certainly friendly, but I felt the strain of wanting to avoid any reference to her husband or to the events that were so painful to us both. And I didn't want to ask directly anything about why she hadn't written or confront her with that. She did say as I was working at the tape recorder later, and Mrs. Ford was reading from the book, we came to a break in the recording and Marina commented, she had been sitting across the room watching, my profile was very like her mother's, and this is not the first time she has made the connection to my physical build and that of her mother. I don't give this much significance, but I do have the impression that there are many feelings and mixed feelings in us both. It is not a simple relationship.

Mr. JENNER. Do you anticipate the possibility of, I will use the word, renewing, it may not be the right word.

Mrs. PAINE. I think that would be right. There has been a distinct break.

Mr. JENNER. Of this cordial friendship and relationship with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. I would like that if it comes about.

Mr. JENNER. And do you have a feeling that there is a possibility of that arising out of your contact with her on March 9, having now talked with her face to face?

Mrs. PAINE. I think there is that possibility. I would like her to do some of the initiating, if not most of it at this point. I said I was going to Washington. I had just heard that same evening before going to the Fords. Mrs. Ford said that she and her husband were to go to Washington, and when. And I said when I would be back home, and Marina implied that she might try to contact me then. I am hopeful that she will. I don't have any particular plans to attempt to contact her.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any feeling other than charity in your heart for Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; certainly. I like her very much as a person. This doesn't mean that I understand her, that she is a person to whom I feel automatically kindred. She was raised in Soviet Russia. She has a background very foreign to my own. I am not even aware of some of the kinds of differences this may cause. I do think that she is a good thinker and a free thinker and that she thinks for herself. I was interested to note what I have put into the record, I believe, yesterday evening about her comment to Mr. Hosty, the first time he came to the house, that she thought Castro was not getting an entirely fair press or not being pictured well in this country, to present a contrary opinion in this situation, and an independent opinion, possibly, clearly unpopular, or she could well suspect it would be unpopular with the FBI agent showed a certain amount of independence and courage and self-confidence, I felt, more what I would expect of an American than of a person raised to be fearful of secret police and state domination.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have anything you want to add in this connection?

Mrs. PAINE. Just the observation that her view of herself and of what she should do now that her husband has been accused of assassinating the President of the United States must be very strongly affected by the fact that she was raised in Soviet Russia, not here, but the fact that she is an emigre hopeful of staying, but by no means native.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever talk to you, I think you mentioned before that she was hopeful of staying. Did she express that to you?

Mrs. PAINE. On several occasions.

Mr. JENNER. And of ultimately becoming a citizen of the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. She didn't mention that, but I assumed it.

Mr. JENNER. You assumed it from the nature of the conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I didn't hear anything specifically stated about that until I read it in the paper after the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to limit it first not to what you read in the paper and your being influenced thereby, but from your contacts with Marina, and the conversations that you had, there must have been many, many of them.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In your home. Do you have a feeling that she has a hope or desire or an intention eventually to become a citizen of the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that specifically. I recall on several occasions that she----

Mr. JENNER. I am seeking only your impression now.

Mrs. PAINE. I will try to answer it by giving these impressions. She expressed many times her wish to stay in this country. She wanted to raise her children here. She was interested in June's learning English and was very concerned that June be able to speak English before she entered school. Indeed, I felt she was not enough concerned that June maintain a bilingual background. She wouldn't have cared if June only learned English, whereas, I, here struggling hard to learn Russian, thought that June could have a chance to learn it easily, but her expression of interest was in June's learning English and not any particular desire to maintain a bilingual quality.

Mr. JENNER. I would share your feeling. I wish I had the command of more than English. I would like very much to do so. I took a lot of Spanish, but it is completely gone now.

Mrs. PAINE. It is very hard to be truly bilingual. Few children have the opportunity.

Mr. JENNER. I have just a couple technicalities on the diary and on your address book, so I can establish them for the record. I would like to go through Commission Exhibit 401, which is the calendar. The entry on page 3 of the exhibit in reference to Lawrence Hoke--that is your brother-in-law? Oh, that is your nephew?

Mrs. PAINE. He was born last April 14, 1963, and I wrote it down.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing to do with the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The next sheet is blank, of course. Now, to the calendar itself, are there any entries in January that have reference to Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. February?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Pick them out according to dates.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, you must understand that some of these were written at the time and some were put in later.

Mr. JENNER. All right; distinguish between them, please.

Mrs. PAINE. I wrote down on February 15, June's birthday, 9:55 a.m., Minsk. That was written in later.

Mr. JENNER. That is, she was born on February 15. Did you put the year in there?

Mrs. PAINE. The year does not appear. I, of course, know it.

Mr. JENNER. And that was the previous year?

Mrs. PAINE. She was born in 1962.

Mr. JENNER. 1962. Any other reference or entry in the month of February that has relation to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. At the top is written "Marina last period February 5" crossed out "or 15th." This refers to menstrual period trying to figure when the baby would be due, and it was an inaccurate notation I learned later. Then there is a note written at the time, the only one on this page that refers to the Oswalds that was written at the time, and that says, "Everett's?"

Mr. JENNER. Entered where?

Mrs. PAINE. On the 22d of February, and from this----

Mr. JENNER. And you have already testified about that?

Mrs. PAINE. From this I deduced that was when I first met them.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I turn to March, and I direct your attention to the upper left-hand corner of that card, and it appears to me that in the upper left-hand corner are October 23, then a star, then "LHO" followed by the words "purchase of rifle." Would you explain those entries?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. This was written after.

Mr. JENNER. After?

Mrs. PAINE. This was written indeed after the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. I heard on the television that he had purchased a rifle.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mrs. PAINE. I heard it on November 23.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. And went back to the page for March, put a little star on March 20 as being a small square, I couldn't fit in all I wanted to say. I just put in a star and then referring it to the corner of the calendar.

Mr. JENNER. That is to the entry I have read?

Mrs. PAINE. Put the star saying "LHO purchase of rifle." Then I thought someone is going to wonder about that, I had better put down the date, and did, but it was a busy day, one of the most in my life and I was off by a month as to what day it was.

Mr. JENNER. That is you made the entry October?

Mrs. PAINE. October 23 instead of November.

Mr. JENNER. It should have been November 23?

Mrs. PAINE. It should have been November 23.

Mr. JENNER. And the entry of October 23, which should have been November 23, was an entry on your part indicating the date you wrote on the calendar the star followed by "LHO purchase of rifle" and likewise the date you made an entry?

Mrs. PAINE. On the 20th.

Mr. JENNER. This is the square having the date March 20?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. I might point out that I didn't know Lee had a middle name until I had occasion to fill out forms for Marina in Parkland Hospital.

Mr. JENNER. That is when you learned that his middle name was Harvey and his initial was H?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Any other entries in March relating to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Identify it, please, first as to date.

Mrs. PAINE. And this written at the time--it happens to be also on March 20, it says, "Marina," and I judge that this was the time we had scheduled for me to come to her, and I believe it is the date referred to in one of the letters as "until the 20th."

Mr. JENNER. You have already testified about this incident?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Any others?

Mrs. PAINE. Not for the month of March.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, dropping down on that same page to the calendar for April, are there any entries relating to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Written at the time there is an entry for Tuesday, April 2, "Marina and Lee, dinner" and it looks like "7 o'clock" above the word "dinner." That has been testified to.

Mr. JENNER. You have testified about that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then there is an entrance on----

Mr. JENNER. An entry?

Mrs. PAINE. An entry, yes, sorry; on April 8 where Marina's name appears, this time written in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. You have testified about that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, and there is a similar entrance for the 10th of April with an arrow.

Mr. JENNER. Entry, you mean again?

Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry, an entry pushing it over to the 11th, which would indicate to me that the actual meeting took place on the 11th.

Mr. JENNER. You testified about that, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I have. And then I have also testified about meeting, picnic, Marina and Lee, on the 20th of April.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And then I have also testified about seeing both of them on the 24th of April, and in that square on my calendar appear the words "Lee and Marina."

Then there was an entry referring to the Oswalds----

Mr. JENNER. You mean theirs?

Mrs. PAINE. Theirs, but written in later, saying, "Marina and Lee Wedding Anniversary two years ago."

Mr. JENNER. That is, you mean you didn't write it on the 30th of April?

Mrs. PAINE. I wrote that later. I learned that date some time in the fall.

Mr. JENNER. You have now identified all entries on the April calendar referring to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Let's take May.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have referred to the fact that this entry on May 1 "Mary" refers to a babysitter, followed by "War and Peace." This recalls to me the fact that Marina went with me and we took June and we saw the movie War and Peace.

Mr. JENNER. About which you have testified?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The next entry----

Mr. JENNER. The next one relating to the Oswalds.

Mrs. PAINE. Right, is on May 10 going over to the 11th where in New Orleans and it means these were the days we were going to New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. And you have testified about that entry and that event?

Mrs. PAINE. I have.

Mr. JENNER. Any other entries on the May calendar relating to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. All right; now drop down to June, please.

Mrs. PAINE. No entries relating to the Oswalds in June.

Mr. JENNER. Turn the page and go to the calendar for July.

Mrs. PAINE. I see an entry on July 17 which says, "Marina birthday." This was written either before or after I did know in the spring that her birthday was in July. I am not certain I have got it down on the right date, and that is all.

Mr. JENNER. Drop down then to the calendar for August. Are there any entries relating to the Oswalds on that date?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Turn the page. We have now reached the calendar for September. Are there any entries relating to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them, please?

Mrs. PAINE. On September 23 there is an entry, "A.M. left N.O." meaning New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. That is an entry of your having departed from New Orleans to go back to----

Mrs. PAINE. And this was written shortly after that event.

Mr. JENNER. To go back to Texas?

Mrs. PAINE. On the 24th is written, "Home arrived 1:30 p.m., from N.O." meaning New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. When was that entry made?

Mrs. PAINE. These were both made after our arrival back.

Mr. JENNER. But shortly afterwards?

Mrs. PAINE. Very shortly.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say you had a luncheon engagement?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Would you like to suspend, and we have lunch and then come back?

Mrs. PAINE. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. It is now 1 o'clock. We will be back at 2.

Could you finish this calendar?

Mrs. PAINE. We have finished September. We are up to October 1963. There is an entry on Friday the 4th that says, "Gave blood" and that has been referred to in testimony previously.

Mr. JENNER. That was in connection with Marina's entry into Parkland Hospital for the birth of her child?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. Crossed out on the 7th of October is "Lee birthday?" On the 18th of October appears an entry "Lee birthday."

Mr. JENNER. You had it in the wrong place initially?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And then you put it in the right place eventually?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Then on the 11th there is a notation "Marina appointment PMH" Parkland Memorial Hospital, "8 a.m." This was our first appointment as I recall, when we applied for care. There is an entry on October 15, "Work L start." This was a mistaken entry and it is crossed out, written down after he called to say he had received work, he didn't actually start working until the 16th, and I have written on the 16th, "Lee work start," and also "HOS" for hospital, and "10:30 a.m." That would be Parkland. I would be certain it was.

Mr. JENNER. Were those entries made contemporaneously with the occurrence of the events they seek to record?

Mrs. PAINE. All except the corrected, "Lee work start," which was made after the assassination, when I realized he didn't start work on the same day that he received the acceptance.

Mr. JENNER. How soon after the assassination did you make that corrected entry?

Mrs. PAINE. Quite soon I'd say. I was being asked each day by many people when did he start to work, and when I put together the necessary sequence of events of having been at coffee at my neighbors, following by his applying, following by his starting, it had to be on the 16th that he had started. Then on the 20th of October is a notation, one word in Russian which says "she was born." It is followed by "10:41 p.m., 6 pounds 15 ounces."

Mr. JENNER. And that refers to Marina's child Rachel?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

On October 22 is a notation, "Baby come home noon" or "came home". That means exactly what it says.

Mr. JENNER. And was it entered contemporaneously with the event?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. The entry of the baby's birth, was that entered contemporaneously with the event?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; right after.

Mr. JENNER. Let me say at this moment this calendar, you employed it sometimes as a diary entry, sometimes as prospective appointments, and sometimes to record past events after they had occurred?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

On the 29th of October appears the entry, "Dal" short for Dallas "Junie" she had a clinic appointment.

Mr. JENNER. That is the child of Lee Harvey, Lee and Marina Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. The older daughter.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have turned the page to the calendar for November.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. You asked me at some time during my testimony was I away during the weekend for any length of time other than to go to the grocery store. I had forgotten but I see here a doctor appointment, "Dr. Liebes," on Saturday would have been made the day before, meaning the child is sick, or that morning, and it means that I was away for an hour and 15 minutes or an hour and a half.

Mr. JENNER. What day is this?

Mrs. PAINE. On Saturday, the 2d of November.

Mr. JENNER. This is the weekend as to which you had some difficulty recalling whether Lee actually visited your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Beginning Friday or beginning Saturday, or possibly he wasn't out.

Mr. JENNER. You recall that the FBI interviewed you on Friday, November 1.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And do you have an entry to that effect?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not mark that down.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that Lee, if he didn't visit or come to your home on the 1st, that he did come on the 2d?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear recollection.

Then there is an entry on November 6, "9:30 dental clinic Marina", it means exactly that. We took her to a dental clinic to get dental care.

Mr. JENNER. And that was probably an entry made in advance to remind you that she had a dental appointment?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

There is an entry on November 11, "Veterans Day." I have already referred to the fact that I was away from 9 or so in the morning until about 2 in the afternoon and this was a day that Lee was at home or at the Fifth Street address at my home.

Mr. JENNER. What date is this?

Mrs. PAINE. Veterans Day, the 11th. It was a Monday.

Mr. JENNER. It is a Monday. And he was at home?

Mrs. PAINE. He was at home that day, and I was away from about 9 in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me so we don't get the record confused as to what home means.

He was at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. There is an entry on the 14th of November, "8 a.m. June Oswald." This I recall to be a reference to taking her to a TB clinic. There was a slight suspicion that she might have been exposed to TB, but this is followed by an entry on the 21st, "Checked TB test" and at that time it was clearly negative. She did not have tuberculosis.

In the same connection, there is an entry on the 18th of November, "1 o'clock TB children's clinic", abbreviation of children's, and I would judge we didn't go all of those times. One of those probably was changed.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that it was but one TB examination visit?

Mrs. PAINE. There were two visits. We went and they scratched the skin to apply the test. Then you go back to have it read. And she also had X-rays taken.

Mr. JENNER. Could those double entries indicate that?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, there were three entries. She only went twice.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Is it possible you might have gone three times?

Mrs. PAINE. It is possible.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Have you identified all three entries now?

Mrs. PAINE. I have.

There is an entry on the 20th of November, "Marina 10 a.m. dental clinic" which is the second dental clinic reference.

There is an entry on the 22d of November "9:15 a.m., Lynn Lollar."

Mr. JENNER. How do you spell Lynn?

Mrs. PAINE. L-y-n-n, which refers to a dental appointment for my daughter to which I have testified.

There is also in pencil----

Mr. JENNER. Its significance is that it took you out of the home.

Mrs. PAINE. That is its significance, yes. That is the only reason it is related. There is also a penciled note at the bottom of the month that says, "Planned Parent," arrow up, arrow down, meaning this week or next visit the Planned Parenthood Clinic, with Marina, for Marina.

This brings us to December.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that elicits a little curiosity on my part.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or interest, rather, not just bare curiosity, pertinent curiosity, should I put it that way. What was the purpose of that visit? I am acquainted with planned parenthood society. What was the purpose of the visit? Was she concerned about having more children?

Mrs. PAINE. That is exactly it.

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that and your conversations with her on that score?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I might go back and say that in March when she first mentioned to me she was expecting a child and we talked about birth control, at that time I also said in March that I would be glad to go with her after the birth of the baby to the Planned Parenthood Clinic to get advice and necessary help, so that she could prevent further conceptions if she wished to.

Mr. JENNER. Was she concerned about the ability, for example, I am just casting about for a reason to stimulate your recollection, the ability of Lee to support a family of additional children, a larger family?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall her commenting, and this most likely in the fall, that Lee had said to her, have as many children as she wanted, but her own feeling was that it is difficult to raise two, and especially as they didn't have a great deal of money, that two would be a good size family. We also discussed the differing attitudes between Americans and Russians on what is a large family. Two is considered quite a large family, two or three in Russia, where both parents normally work, and it is difficult to support a very large family.

Mr. JENNER. And did you keep the appointment with Planned Parenthood?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attend with her a Planned Parenthood meeting or session, visit?

Mrs. PAINE. Her husband was killed before it was time to go.

Mr. JENNER. That is, Lee Oswald was?

Mrs. PAINE. One had to wait until at least 6 weeks after the birth of the baby before going, or 5 or 6 weeks.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. I go on to December.

There are two notations, both written down in advance of this time, and both notes indicating when to go to a clinic, and neither of these appointments was kept.

There is a notation on the 3d of December, "Vine Clinic, Bay 12 noon." The Vine Street Clinic was a well baby clinic in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. What do you mean "well baby"?

Mrs. PAINE. That is a clinic where any mother can bring children for inoculations, or preventive health measures. I think I have already mentioned a previous notation about the Vine Clinic on November 5. I might have skipped that.

Mr. JENNER. I think you did.

Mrs. PAINE. There is an entry on November 5, "Vine Clinic 12 o'clock."

Mr. JENNER. And that was to be a visit by Marina with her child?

Mrs. PAINE. June.

Mr. JENNER. June. Did that include Rachel as well?

Mrs. PAINE. Rachel only went along, and we were told that she should come in about four weeks.

Mr. JENNER. That Marina should?

Mrs. PAINE. No, that is the baby.

Mr. JENNER. The baby June?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, should be 6 weeks old or so before they give the first--no, that the baby Rachel should also come, but that she should be older before giving her the first inoculation.

Mr. JENNER. Therefore, you made the entry as of December 5, to bring the baby for the first time to that clinic?

Of course, that never took place.

Mrs. PAINE. I might point out that we were advised that we could change the registration of June and make registration for Rachel in Irving at a well baby clinic instead of in Dallas, but since the expectation was that Marina would be back in Dallas after the 1st of the year, we decided to maintain that clinic.

Mr. JENNER. That is of interest to me, Mrs. Paine. There had been discussion between you and Marina in which there appeared to be an expectation on her part that she would have rejoined her husband by the 1st of the year?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought I had already made that clear, yes indeed, and this just adds to that indication.

Mr. JENNER. So that these are entries that physically are related to the current expectation then existing of her return to her husband, joining him in Dallas.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. To live with him?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

There is a a notation on December 4, "Clinic 6 weeks".

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.

The first of those entries was made on November 5, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Just a minute.

No, October 29, "Dallas Junie" is the first Vine Street Clinic visit, followed 1 week later by a reading of her patch test, whatever the TB test was which registered a false, positive but we went to the TB children's clinic to be certain that it was a false positive, and she was cleared of any suspicion of TB on the 21st of November.

Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at is that when you made the entry on November 5, 1963----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And I would gather substantially contemporaneously with that an entry on December 5, 1963----

Mrs. PAINE. December 3.

Mr. JENNER. December 3, 1963, that there was consciously in the minds of both you and Marina as of November 5 that she would be rejoining her husband by the first of the year.

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. I can give a little more detail on this.

Mr. JENNER. I wish you would, on that.

Mrs. PAINE. We were visited at the home by a public health nurse in Irving----

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. It doesn't appear, and I don't recall, though they might have records of it.

Mr. JENNER. I am not trying to get the exact date. I am really----

Mrs. PAINE. It was after she had registered at Parkland, it was after the baby was born.

Mr. JENNER. And was it in the month of October?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And we were advised by this public health nurse that there was a well baby clinic in Irving, which she conducted, and that she had been given our name and address because of the care at Parkland, and she said that Marina could come and bring her children to the clinic in Irving.

Then I mentioned that they had contact already with the Vine Street Clinic, and I think after this visit from the nurse, Marina and I discussed where it would be best for her to have her----

Mr. JENNER. Her clinic care?

Mrs. PAINE. Her association, her clinic, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And during the course of that conversation, go on----

Mrs. PAINE. Marina expressed the opinion that it would be better to just continue in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Because----

Mrs. PAINE. Because they would be again in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. And that squared with your impressions at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it did.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Return to the record.

Mrs. PAINE. There was another clinic visit that doesn't appear here. I don't know why. Obviously, a lot of things happened that I didn't write down but there was also a visit to, I will call it, a sick baby clinic where you go if a child is ailing.

Mr. JENNER. And who was ailing? Or possibly so?

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection was that no one was ailing, but we learned of it and wanted to make registration. It was in the adjacent building to the TB clinic.

Oh, no; I recall now why we went.

At the first Vine Street Clinic meeting, which is, I judge, the 29th of October, the physician recommended that June go to the Freeman Memorial Clinic.

Mr. JENNER. F-r-e-e-m-a-n?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection. I am not certain. June has--I don't know what it is called, but it is like a birthmark except that it is not at the time of birth but a little blood vessel that collects and makes a red spot. This was on her tummy.

Mr. JENNER. It was on Marina's?

Mrs. PAINE. It was on June's tummy and the doctor at the well baby clinic suggested that she should have this looked at, and in this connection he referred us to this other children's clinic, and we went for an examination there at some time, and it doesn't appear on my calendar, and the doctors there concluded that it was not necessary for that to be taken off. At the same time, we filled out forms, more forms about Marina, so that she could be eligible, and she did then get a card so that she could come to this clinic at any time that her children were sick. And they no doubt would have a record of when that was done.

My own best recollection would be that it was the morning of the 18th of November, although there is no reference to it here. Then the final notation is December 4. I started to mention this, but I don't believe I finished, "Clinic 6 weeks check 1." One refers to the post partum check at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. JENNER. This was a part of the postnatal care?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. For Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. For Marina, and, of course, to check the baby's health, too, and I simply sent notation about this appointment to Secret Service. That is all.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina or June or Rachel or Lee, to your knowledge, have any medical care by private physician, during the time of your acquaintance with them?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to my knowledge, and I would be surprised.

Mr. JENNER. Surprised? Why?

Mrs. PAINE. If they had. They had very little money, and this arrangement for the well baby clinic had been made by Marina well before I knew her. June had already been once or twice in Dallas to the Vine Street Clinic. I judged that Marina, a trained pharmacist, was concerned about health, and wanted to get proper medical care whether or not they could pay for it.

Mr. JENNER. All right, now have we covered all of your calendar, which sometimes served as a diary, being Commission Exhibit No. 401?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. We will adjourn until 2:15.

(Whereupon, at 1:20 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The proceedings reconvened at 2:45 p.m.

Mr. JENNER. We will resume. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 402, which is your address book, would you do with that what you did with your calendar diary, and go through it page by page, and tell us of any entries on particular pages which relate to the Oswalds?

The first sheet of the exhibit is the cover. Next is the inside cover, and the reverse of the first page. Is there anything on any of the entries which appear on those pages which relate to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. The one on the left is the police officer who picked up the address book.

Mr. JENNER. Those are his initials and date that he picked it up?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know who picked it up. And I didn't see it was gone.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; as you testified. The next page is the "A" page, the left and right hand.

Mrs. PAINE. These have no significance to the Oswalds.

Mr. JENNER. The next is the B page, left and right.

Mrs. PAINE. No significance.

Mr. JENNER. Bell Helicopter is the place at which your husband is employed?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. The next page is the C page, left-hand.

Mrs. PAINE. You are still on B.

Mr. JENNER. I am what?

Mrs. PAINE. You are still on B.

Mr. JENNER. The left-hand here on this exhibit is the reverse side of the B page, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Anything on there relating to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. You have on this page two neighbors of mine, Ann Bell met both Marina and Lee, and she has been interviewed.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that?

Mrs. PAINE. Other than that, no significance.

Mr. JENNER. The next is the right-hand of the B page, and the first page of the C page. Any of those names or addresses related to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Next is the opposite face of the C page and the first page of the D page.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing there related to the Oswalds.

Mr. JENNER. The next is the reverse side of the C page and the first page of the D page.

Mrs. PAINE. Also nothing related.

Mr. JENNER. The next is the reverse side of the D page and the first page of the E page.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing there.

Mr. JENNER. Next, the reverse side of the D page and the first face of the E page.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance with relation to the Oswalds.

Mr. JENNER. Next is the reverse of the E page and the first face of the F page.

Mrs. PAINE. I recall being refreshed by this entry, Four Continents Book Store. I went into this book store during the summer, my summer trip, and inquired of the lady at the cashier's desk something that I wanted to find, and realized that she did not speak any English, she did not understand me. And I heard other people--there is a book store where you can obtain materials in Russian--it imports from Russia, and had materials that I wanted to get to help me with teaching Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Is this located in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. PAINE. This is in New York City. And----

Mr. JENNER. You have not frequented that place before?

Mrs. PAINE. I have been in there before, yes; in a different year.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware, then, of the factor you have now recounted?

Mrs. PAINE. No; the only reason I bring it up is that I related this incident to Marina as an illustration of the fact that one needn't know English fluently to get a job--if there were a Russian-speaking community, where Russian could be used. That is all.

Mr. JENNER. Then the reverse of the page and the first face of the G page.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here.

Mr. JENNER. Next, the reverse of the F page and the first face of the G page.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, there is a reference to D. Gravitis, and also the name of her son-in-law appears here.

Mr. JENNER. And her son-in-law is?

Mrs. PAINE. Ilya Mamantov.

Mr. JENNER. And at the bottom of the page?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is an entry for Everett Glover, whose name has appeared in the testimony, and whose connection is known.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing else?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else.

Mr. JENNER. The reverse of the G page and the face of the H page.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing significant there.

Mr. JENNER. Globe Parcel Service. Didn't you make some reference to that in your testimony?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; not in any connection to the Oswalds. But this was an address given to me by my Russian tutor. This is a service which will help you to send parcels to people behind the Iron Curtain. They see to it that it is either delivered or returned--whereas, sometimes without that service it will be neither delivered or returned.

Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to resort to its services in connection with any of your association with the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I, in fact, have not used the service. I only have their address.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Next is the reverse of the G page and the facing page of the H page.

Mrs. PAINE. Mild significance in that the name of my one Russian student appears here, Bill Hootkins.

Mr. JENNER. And his telephone number----

Mrs. PAINE. Is there; yes.

Mr. JENNER. The reverse of the H page and the face of the I page. Now, let's take the reverse of the H page first, first side. The two pages--the left-hand one has Samuel and Liz Hagner, and the opposite page at the top has Carol Hyde. On those two pages, are there any entries dealing with the Oswalds or relating to them?

Mrs. PAINE. None; except that it contains an address of several of my relatives, and these are people to whom I spoke about the Oswalds, and that has appeared in the testimony. Other than that, no significance.

Mr. JENNER. Next would be--there are some empty pages. We better record that fact. The reverse side----

Mrs. PAINE. They are not in your exhibit.

Mr. JENNER. As we have gone along, there are some blank pages in your address book.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But they are not in the exhibit.

Mr. JENNER. Those blank pages, except as they are in proximity to pages that have some entries on them, were not photostated.

Mrs. PAINE. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And do not appear as part of Commission Exhibit 402?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I am now directing your attention in the picture exhibit to the page on which the letter J appears at the top.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. There is nothing of significance here in relation to the Oswalds.

Mr. JENNER. And next is a page in which a letter K appears at the top of the list of letters.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a page in which the top letter is L.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing here.

Mr. JENNER. And the next, on the right-hand side is a page, the top letter of which is M. On the opposite page in the photograph there are entries also. Look at both pages, please.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. There is one significant entry for Dutz and Lillian Murret.

Mr. JENNER. 757 French Street, New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Telephone number HU 8-4326.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Those are the aunt and uncle of the late Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And this was filled in after my second visit to New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. How long after? You mean while you were there?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably while I was there. But I know I didn't have their address or their name correct during the summer.

Mr. JENNER. It was during your visit--your second visit to New Orleans that you learned fully of their name and address and telephone number, and you made an entry in your address book?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. There is one above that, is there not?

Mrs. PAINE. And I believe this person has been referred to in testimony--Helen Mamikonian. She was my roommate at Middlebury College, summer Russian school.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the next is a sheet that is opposite the sheet, the top letter of which is M.

Mrs. PAINE. This just gives a current address for the same person--Helen Mamikonian.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you. And the next is a sheet, the top letter of which is N.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing significant here.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a sheet, the top letter of which is O. You have testified fully as to all the entries on that sheet, have you not, heretofore?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a sheet in which the top letter appearing is the letter P.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Are there any entries on that sheet that relate to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. The entry for Plattner Clinic, in Grand Prairie, was made because I inquired of them about the cost of maternity care at their clinic and hospital, for Marina.

Mr. JENNER. No other entry of significance on that page?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The next is the page opposite that--the top letter of which is Q.

Mrs. PAINE. No significance here.

Mr. JENNER. The next is the page the top letter of which is R.

Mrs. PAINE. Significant here is an entry for Ed and Dorothy Roberts.