Chapter IX: Part 9

Mr. MAMANTOV. I understand and I am trying to recollect. No, I remember--I think I said everything I could remember.

Mr. JENNER. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything that was said at least in substance, and to the extent of the recall of each of the particulars up to this moment, that is to the moment when the gun was brought into the room?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, was there a court reporter present?

Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, the detective took down.

Mr. JENNER. Made notes?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Made some notes, and which were read to her.

Mr. JENNER. Eventually--that is, at the conclusion of the examination he summarized his notes in her presence?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, he read word by word, I translated back. He didn't write in shorthand, but he wrote it, I remember very well--Mrs. Paine tried to correct his English and, of course, minor mistakes. I probably wouldn't write the same way--you don't expect every policeman to write the same English, and which the question was whether "I" or "me"--that's the mistake it was.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when that summary was given by the officer in the presence of Marina, did she affirm that it was at least in substance correct?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She signed it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to correct anything in the statement read to Marina by the officer, that is, did you call attention to anything you thought had been left out or anything that had not been fairly stated?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, they read back to her, I translated back into Russian and she agreed. Only, there was Mrs. Paine--Mrs. Paine made a remark about the grammar.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I think--let's go ahead--the weapon is brought in.

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right.

Mr. JENNER. It is fully assembled?

Mr. MAMANTOV. It is fully assembled.

Mr. JENNER. It has a telescopic sight on it and the leather sling?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Captain Fritz brought it in and was holding it in his two hands, with two or three fingers, not to touch gun around--in that position (indicating).

Mr. JENNER. Holding it up--holding it like that (indicating)?

Mr. MAMANTOV. More or less--you see--inclined in that position.

Mr. JENNER. Holding it up horizontally or close to the horizontal?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and it was brought close enough to her to examine. She was specifically asked if this was the gun she had seen in the past in that blanket. She said, "I don't know. All guns to me are the same, are a dark brown or black."

He asked her again--"This," which was to me very dark or black colored. He said, "Is this what you see?" She said, "No, I don't know. I saw the gun--I saw a gun;" she said again, "All guns are the same to me." Then they asked her about a sight on the gun.

Mr. JENNER. S-i-g-h-t [spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; a telescope--she said, "No; I never have seen gun like that in his possession," and she referred back again to the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say to you--is this a conclusion on your part that she referred back to the Soviet Union?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No--no--she said this way.

Mr. JENNER. It isn't a conclusion, if you put the words in her mouth, so you can go ahead.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, she said the gun which he had in the Soviet Union, she didn't know how to say--she said, "This thing."

Mr. JENNER. The telescopic sight?

Mr. MAMANTOV. The telescopic sight--she pointed to it with her finger.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did she say that the rifle or weapon, whatever it was he had in the Soviet Union--her recollection was it did not have a telescopic sight on it?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She was asked if she had seen this part of the gun which he had in the garage in the blanket--this she said again--she said, "No; I have only seen one part of the gun, which was the end of the gun"--which part they asked her--I think I am calling it----

Mr. JENNER. The stock?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She pointed to the stock--correct--and then she was asked about the gun again and she said, "Dark brown-black."

Mr. JENNER. Still referring to the stock?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Still referring to the stock, and then they asked her for a couple more questions, if she saw this particular gun in his possession. She insisted that to her all guns are the same and she couldn't distinguish this gun from any other gun that he had in the past.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, it is your recollection that they questioned her very closely in an effort to elicit from her, if it weren't a fact that the weapon they were showing her was the weapon she had seen, and her responses consistently were--they were, no matter how close or vigorous the examination, that all guns are alike to her, that the only thing she ever saw was the stock of the gun in the blanket?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And her recollection was it was dark brown, and that's all she thought, to fairly summarize?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. They asked her again, "Is this the color you saw?" She said "Yes--yes, it reminds me of the same color." They particularly questioned her fairly close, if this was the same gun which belonged to him and she only insisted she saw the stock of the gun and hasn't seen the whole gun.

Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.

Mr. MAMANTOV. And they asked her, I think they came back again and asked her if she has seen him carrying something.

Mr. JENNER. Carrying something?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Carrying something, and she said, "No," she didn't see him leaving, so she didn't know if he was carrying something.

Mr. JENNER. You mean they came back and asked her whether, when he left that morning he was carrying anything?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And her response was?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She didn't see him leaving or walking out of the house, or whatever he was taking--means of transportation.

Mr. JENNER. She didn't see him leave, so she doesn't know whether he had anything with him or not, is that a fair statement?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a fair statement of her statements?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's exactly right.

Mr. JENNER. Did they question her as to the details of his coming to Irving, Tex., the night before, and what did he bring with him, if anything, and what did he say as to why he was returning on Thursday night, whereas, he usually came on weekends, as on a Friday, did they go through that previous evening with her in detail and from point to point so that they could exhaust the movements of Lee Oswald that previous evening?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; if I remember right, they didn't question her to the extent of his arrival--well, I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. They concentrated on his presence the following morning and what occurred from the time she awakened until the time he left?

Mr. MAMANTOV. To me as a layman, the whole talk was around him having the gun, and "this is the gun he used."

Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection, you recall, is that there was no questioning of her with respect to movements of this man the previous evening?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, any questions as to why he came home on Thursday rather than on Friday as usual?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Did they go into any questions with respect to the acquaintances of the Oswalds with people here in Dallas or in Irving or in Fort Worth or in New Orleans?

Mr. MAMANTOV. At that particular time?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Over what period of time did this examination take place? What was its duration?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Roughly, I would say about 2-1/2 to 3 hours. You see, Mrs. Paine also testified, she was present so they took two statements--from both of them.

Mr. JENNER. They took Mrs. Paine's and then they took Marina's?

Mr. MAMANTOV. First Marina's and then Mrs. Paine's.

Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Paine's statement taken in Marina's presence?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And Marina's statement was taken in Mrs. Paine's presence?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you interpret from English into Russian the statements made by Mrs. Paine that is, did you translate Mrs. Paine's statement, as she made it and the questions put to Mrs. Paine, for the benefit of Marina, so that she would understand the questions to Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Paine's responses?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; the statement was not translated into Russian.

Mr. JENNER. And you can see why that is important to me, as to whether Marina would take exception to anything Mrs. Paine said?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. Now, we were waiting about 2-1/2 or 3 hours altogether for the typist to type that.

Mr. JENNER. It was the taking of the statement, the transcribing of the statement, the reading of the statement to Marina and Mrs. Paine, and then have the witnesses read the statements or listen to them and then sign them.

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. All of this took about 3 hours?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine speak to Marina in Russian while you were present?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, yes, she did. Mrs. Paine spoke in Russian to Marina--yes, she did.

Mr. JENNER. Any statements made by Mrs. Paine in Russian to Marina, were they pertinent to the subject matters about which you have testified?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't think so. I don't remember--personal conversation more or less about the child who was present.

Mr. JENNER. The conversations between Mrs. Paine and Marina in Russian, were they conversations related to personal matters--the children?

Mr. MAMANTOV. The children; and only on one occasion I remember was to her protection--Marina's protection.

Mr. JENNER. And what was that?

Mr. MAMANTOV. "What are they going to do with me now?"

Mr. JENNER. Who made that statement?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Marina asked of Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. "What are they going to do with me now?"

Mr. MAMANTOV. What are they going to do with me now?"

Mr. JENNER. And what did Mrs. Paine say?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, then, she asked--are they going to send her back to the Soviet Union, and Mrs. Paine said, "I don't know," and then she looked at me and I said, "I don't know either. If you are innocent, then you will be innocent." I couldn't say one way or the other, and I didn't want to go into conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say to Marina that, "If you are innocent--then you are innocent"--did you mean to imply by that that she would not be deported in that event?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and then I expressed hope that nothing would happen to her.

Mr. JENNER. Now, have you now told us everything you can recall to the best of your recollection that was said?

Mr. MAMANTOV. In relation to Marina or to both of them?

Mr. JENNER. First, in relation to Marina--during the course of that 3-hour meeting or session at the Dallas City Police Station.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I think I have told you everything I remember.

Mr. JENNER. In an effort to perhaps refresh your recollection, but without suggestion that these things actually occurred, was anything asked her about her relations with her husband, Lee Oswald, whether they got along well, didn't get along well, whether they had any problems in that connection?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't think it was brought up at that particular time.

Mr. JENNER. You have an especial command of the Russian language, you teach Russian?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And have taught Russian?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. You have heard Mrs. Paine speak Russian?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please state for the record the extent of Mrs. Paine's command of the Russian language?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Say for--I can give only comparison for American person and for Russian person. I say for an American person--fair to good for knowledge of the language, for command of language--very poor.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the only occasion when you interpreted or translated for Marina?

Mr. MAMANTOV. In person? In her presence?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's the only occasion.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see Marina at any time after this incident, this questioning?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Intentionally or unintentionally?

Mr. JENNER. Well, I think, either way.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Either way--yes, sir--I once on one Saturday, my mother-in-law and I went to Sears to Ross Avenue store.

Mr. JENNER. Was this some time afterward?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Shortly afterward.

Mr. JENNER. How shortly--the next day?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, no--the next day after Martin, I guess, came into the picture.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to speak with her then?

Mr. MAMANTOV. My mother-in-law went into the main entrance and I opened the door, and if I remember right, I was holding the door for somebody else to pass by and mother-in-law got ahead. I closed the door and started to walk off and catch up and I heard somebody calling, like in my conscious, calling, "Mr. Mamantov," in Russian and in a very little whisper, and I was walking a couple of steps further and I heard it again, "Mr. Mamantov," again in Russian and I turned around and here was a young lady, two children, and about three or four young men around, so in my mind it occurred--this is Marina, but I was so surprised and she didn't look like she looked at the police station. Her hair became dark and I called out "Netasha," and she called me in Russian and said, "No, this is Marina." So, I introduced myself immediately to the gentlemen with her, saying I was translating for her at the police station and my name is so and so.

In the meantime mother-in-law turned around and started to look for me and I told her to pass by, don't look, and try to get away, and, I said, "How are you doing?" She said, "Now is becoming quieter. I am very tired."

That is the extent of our conversation, so we went into basement of Sears store and when we finished our business, we were going up again--excuse me--by myself. Mother-in-law was waiting for me somewhere--I had to go and check on my credit, so after going into the Sears' office, coming back on the escalator, here was the group again, and I tried to be polite and let her and her escort get on the escalator, and I stepped on and I told to one, who later I found out was Martin, and I didn't know at that time who was Martin, and I told him, I said, "If she needs help in translating the language, please call on me." And so and so, and that's the time I saw her.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you have seen her?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. You do--when did you first meet him?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember exactly, but let me go back--are you through with Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. JENNER. I'm through with her only if you have told us everything about this particular occasion.

Mr. MAMANTOV. One occasion they asked Mrs. Paine, and who was also present and gave us testimony, they asked her if she knew if he had a gun.

Mr. JENNER. If Mrs. Paine knew?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct--it's important to you to know this, please?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is.

Mr. MAMANTOV. And she said, "No, she didn't." Why didn't she know that Marina had her belongings in her garage, and she said, "Yes, I knew," and "How didn't you know that she had a gun," and she said, "Because I didn't go through her belongings. I mean, it isn't my business to check on what she had there." Now, they asked her also, knowing that she is a--what is the religious denomination in Pennsylvania?

Mr. JENNER. Quaker.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Quaker. Would you allow her to have the gun, knowing that you are Quaker? She said again, "It belongs to her, and it isn't for me to say," and this is the extent I remember statements on Mrs. Paine's part.

Mr. JENNER. She wasn't asked either about what had occurred the previous evening; is that correct?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. MAMANTOV. You told me to say only what I know--I know this.

Mr. JENNER. I want you to state only what you recall, sir.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember--this is overlapping two occasions--whether that was that evening, if you will show me the statement that was written, I will elaborate in details on it.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mamantov, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Are you acquainted with a man by the name of George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with him?

Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, in the early part of 1956.

Mr. JENNER. You were then a resident of Dallas?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And will you describe George De Mohrenschildt as to his physical characteristics first?

Mr. MAMANTOV. A tall, handsome man, well built, very talkative and loud in society, likes to tell one company jokes--one sex jokes.

Mr. JENNER. He's a hail fellow, well-met type?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Garrulous, talkative?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Very.

Mr. JENNER. Expansive type?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. What color is his hair?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Brunette with quite a few grey hairs at that time when I met him, and appealed to ladies and used to take advantage of that.

Mr. JENNER. Sort of a ladies' man?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Sort of a ladies' man, and at that time was married, twice for sure, and maybe more, and shortly after that had a--a divorce was pending.

Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with his then wife?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I am acquainted of his girl friend of that general area, who is now his wife.

Mr. JENNER. And what was her name?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember----

Mr. JENNER. Was she a native born American?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Zhana, I think, probably in English would be Jane, and to spell Zhana in English translation is Z-h-a-n-a [spelling]. This was the way she was called in the Russian society.

Mr. JENNER. And translation of that would be Jane in English, you think?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say so--also of Russian.

Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you--she was of Russian derivation?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. She was born in Russia?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't know--I don't know her, as well as I know George.

Mr. JENNER. She was not an American born?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't think so, but I don't know for sure. I'll put it this way. She speaks too good Russian to be an American born.

Mr. JENNER. What about De Mohrenschildt in that respect?

Mr. MAMANTOV. He speaks perfect Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Is he a native-born American?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't think so, because he was educated in Leige, Belgium--well, he finished here--I know for sure if we meet again, I can bring you more details from our geological directories, all this information, and if I remember right, shortly we met him and Zhana together and we had service in our church, which was very small--actually was just a regular residence.

Mr. JENNER. You told us earlier in the course of our visiting that you participated in an effort to organize a church here in Dallas?

Mr. MAMANTOV. In Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. In which you anticipated people of Russian derivation would be interested?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And did that church have a name?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Saint Nicholas Eastern Orthodox Church.

Mr. JENNER. Eastern Orthodox Church?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and there I saw him and her, I'm talking about Zhana, very improperly dressed for a church service. If I remember right, either both of them or she came in shorts toward the end of the service, which shocked all my family. I mean--just to describe a man this way----

Mr. JENNER. You mean this is part of his personality?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and every place we met him he was talking to ladies elder than he, in a way normally a well brought up person wouldn't do it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, what I am trying to have you do is tell us of your acquaintance with George De Mohrenschildt, and avoiding speculation to the extent you can--and the part he played in your life. I am getting at the Russian emigre group here in Dallas.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, had you known him prior to the time you met him, as you have described?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No--no, no; I haven't.

Mr. JENNER. Or known of him?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; the first time I met him through Mr. Bouhe, and this was a first acquaintance and just like I said, the only places--it was in somebody's house and parties, we usually wouldn't stay too long because of him. We just have some reason--we had a tendency to avoid this person as much as possible.

Mr. JENNER. You acquired a normal or natural aversion to or dislike of George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. From what he did and what you thought he represented?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, because being of the same nationality, I thought he was hurting all of our emigre here in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina or Lee Oswald knew the De Mohrenschildts?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I know that Marina related the conversations to my mother-in-law as "our best friends in Dallas," referring to both of the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. JENNER. You are now stating that your mother-in-law told you that Marina said to her, "These were their best friends in Dallas"?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. We both appreciate that that is pure hearsay, but that remark was made to you?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean, it was made in a family--after my conversation between my mother-in-law and Marina.

Mr. JENNER. And there was yourself--and anybody else present----

Mr. MAMANTOV. My wife was present.

Mr. JENNER. When your mother-in-law made that statement in your presence?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. But Marina was not present at that time?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; our family haven't seen Marina in our lives. Mother-in-law never have seen Marina--was except at a distance at Sears store, except that time.

Mr. JENNER. Your information is that there never was any direct contact between your mother-in-law and Marina except on the telephone?

Mr. MAMANTOV. On telephone.

Mr. JENNER. And, was that by way of the telephone?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you were not present, in the presence of your mother-in-law, when your mother-in-law had that conversation with Marina?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I was at work. You see, she lived--if I can take your time, I can tell you how it happened, if it is important I can. I don't want to take your time.

Mr. JENNER. I want to avoid hearsay, and that's why I am going a little carefully at this moment because, on this trip we plan to talk with your mother-in-law and take her testimony directly, just not hearsay.

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's what I thought, but the reason she talked was because Marina was at Paine's house and Paine went to San Antonio and asked my mother-in-law to check on Marina because Marina was pregnant at that time--you see the connection?

Mr. JENNER. No; to check on Marina, that she had any suspicion of her?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; but in case she needs help, but just in the way of help, and this way the whole conversation came up. Now, my mother-in-law--I asked Mr. Peterson who called me on Friday if my mother-in-law would be called or is called, I will come with her because she needs a translator.

Mr. JENNER. You may bring her.

Mr. MAMANTOV. If I may bring her with me because everything she knows we know in the family, and she needs a translator, and I translated for her when she was questioned by FBI. She doesn't speak enough English to answer your questions.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, is that so?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She will understand what you are talking about but--as far as that--she is 75, and an elderly lady and she can be quite nervous by being by herself and so on.

Mr. JENNER. All right, I will attempt my best to put her at ease, which I have tried to do with you.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, I am at ease as much as I can be. I'm trying to be, because the reasons I hesitate to say--"Yes, I remember." I don't remember in some cases, or maybe I remember, like when I translated with Mr. Martin over here, because in my mind it is very hard to separate right now without going back and reading the report.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with a couple, Igor and Natalie Voshinin?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. They are friends of yours?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct; they are also friends of the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. JENNER. And have you had conversations with the Voshinins with respect to Mr. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; and on quite a few occasions.

Mr. JENNER. During any of those conversations was any reference made to a trip that De Mohrenschildt made or might have made to Mexico City, Mexico?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. When was that trip supposed to have taken place?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember if it was in 1958 or 1959. I don't know. Mrs. Voshinin can tell you exactly the time.

Mr. JENNER. All right, we intend to interrogate them as well. We will leave it to them.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but I heard from her, I mean, her statement to us was that De Mohrenschildt went to Mexico and met with the Soviet representatives and Mikoyan----

Mr. JENNER. That's spelled M-i-k-o-y-a-n [spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes--who was visiting at that time in Mexico. This, actually, if you will let me elaborate a little bit more on this--this mainly was my opinion of his politics, I mean, I had suspicioned, but this was actually what led me to believe or doubt his loyalty.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you are speaking of De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us your contacts with De Mohrenschildt; do they extend beyond what you have stated that he participated in the effort to organize the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; he did not participate.

Mr. JENNER. He did not?

Mr. MAMANTOV. He did not--he never was interested in church life, but I met him through that group, and Mr. Bouhe, who are the most active participants in organizing the church.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us what other Russian emigres of this group in Dallas participated in the effort to organize the church about which you have testified--yourself, Bouhe----

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I joined. This was done already by other people. We came in 1955--this already was going for a couple of years.

Mr. JENNER. Who are reasonably regular attendants or at least persons interested?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Mr. Bouhe----

Mr. JENNER. Bouhe, yourself, your wife?

Mr. MAMANTOV. My wife not so much--she is a Catholic.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. MAMANTOV. But she attended, and, of course, she did everything for the sake of her children who are Greek Orthodox, and then Mrs.--oh, gosh, what is her name--Mrs. Zinzade, Z-i-n-z-a-d-e [spelling]. Her first name is Helen and his name is, I think, George, but I can look in the telephone book later on.

Mr. JENNER. That's all right. Are all these people generally Russian intellectuals?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I call you an intellectual.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. I meant to imply that.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Put it this way--all of them have lower educational level than I do, except De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt has a higher education, as you do?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Most of these other people have the qualifications or are interested in what?

Mr. MAMANTOV. De Mohrenschildt has the same or a little bit low----

Mr. JENNER. As yours?

Mr. MAMANTOV. As mine. We are both geologists and might be called miners, and the Voshinins are the same.

Mr. JENNER. Who else?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Grigor'ev--this was the benefactor of that church. That's called Grigor'ev, he was the benefactor of that church. Voshinin, Bouhe, all of us were on the same educational level. The rest of them were below high-school education, especially like in Mr. Bouhe's case, he is an accountant, and a Latvian--Mrs. Grolle, G-r-o-l-l-e [spelling], and the first name is Emma. Now, who else was there--now, an Estonian couple who are very active--Hartens, H-a-r-t-en-s [spelling], and his first name, I don't remember, but if you need it exactly, we take the telephone book--all of these names are in the telephone book. This group actually was very active in organizing.

Mr. JENNER. Meller, M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; and Mrs. Meller--right, and the closest relationship is between her and Mr. Bouhe.

Mr. JENNER. You mean there's a close relation between Mrs. Meller and Mr. Bouhe, they are close friends.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; closest of all this group because these people actually was the nucleous of those church workers or financial supporters. I was a worker for a while, but I didn't contribute money because we just came to Dallas and we didn't have enough to contribute, but Mr. Grigor'ev and Mr. Bouhe were the main financial supporters and through them, through all this group, I met Mr. De Mohrenschildt the first time.

Mr. JENNER. Then, I'll ask you this general question--would you please state all you know about George De Mohrenschildt, and you are free, in making the statement, to give your impressions and take it as chronologically as you can, and I should say to you that this testimony is privileged. You are not subject, unless you have an evil heart and evil intent, to any litigation, that is, slander, libel, or otherwise.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; only I know about the man, like I told you, that we were being closer acquainted with him and his present wife.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Because of his characteristics, of his frivolous life, his behavior in the presence of ladies--to us suspicious political trips supposedly related to his business and this is the extent I can say of him.

Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything you said to the FBI when you called them on the 22d of November before you were contacted by the Dallas office?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I haven't told them anything except I know of the assassin and if I can be of service I would like to relate the knowledge I have.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was there an occasion on which your mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis made some comment or gave an opinion to you, her opinion as to Lee Oswald with particular reference to his possible political leanings, and does that serve to refresh your recollection enough--I don't want to suggest the conversation to you.

Mr. MAMANTOV. In relation to what?

Mr. JENNER. In relation to Oswald, whether he was a Communist or what his political leanings were in her opinion?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, on many occasions that came up, the conversation, after her conversations with Mrs. Paine, and after hearing through Mrs. Paine and my mother-in-law what he was saying and how he was opposed to our way of life and knowing that he came from that country, she and I stated that he is a Communist--we didn't hesitate.

Mr. JENNER. That was based upon the reports to you from your mother-in-law as to what Mrs. Paine might have or did say to her and from, I gather, your general knowledge at that time that he had gone from this country to Russia?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And had returned with Marina as his wife?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and not only through Mrs. Paine, because after we found out--many people of Russian descent were somehow acquainted with Lee Oswald and Marina, so we heard later from different sources of him and his political opinions.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do I correctly interpret your testimony that because there is a Russian emigre group here that is lively and interested in each other, that they took an interest, if for no other reason, that they took an interest in Marina and to an extent, Lee Oswald, to expand her acquaintance in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area and make them comfortable to the extent that you people out of the kindness of your heart could do so? I don't want to describe it incorrectly--give me your reaction to that.

Mr. MAMANTOV. My reaction--I never was asked to help them, never was approached by them or people who tried to help them.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression, that people were trying to help them?

Mr. MAMANTOV. People who tried to help them, I told them on many occasions they shouldn't do it.

Mr. JENNER. What do you mean?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, I told Mrs. Paine--Mrs. Paine was an interested person.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Because, in my opinion, Oswald was a Communist and was sent here with certain purpose, whether to kill or what to do, but he had an assignment and because my belief was and still is, and which is strengthened due to the 22d assassination.

Mr. JENNER. And these views and opinions of yours are not based on any direct knowledge on your part of Lee Harvey Oswald, that is, any direct contact during the course of events up to November 22, that is, you don't point to any specific knowledge on your part, but it is a realization----

Mr. MAMANTOV. It is a realization of what the people told me of his political viewpoints, their home being in the Soviet Union and supposedly being an undesirable person, but I have again past cases in my life where exactly what he did, other people, they are doing it, and I am sure you have heard many questions on TV and those questions were asked before.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it, Mr. Mamantov, that you regard yourself, and that you are a loyal and dedicated, naturalized American.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I am.

Mr. JENNER. And you are proud and concerned about your standing in that respect?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; but I'm not a member of the John Birch Society, I am not a member of any organization except my professional and local Republican Party.

Mr. JENNER. At any time prior to November 1963, were you aware of or has there come to your attention any information or statement attributed to Oswald, that to you indicated that he had animosity or opposition to President John F. Kennedy as an individual, as I say, prior to November 22?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I understand--no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or any animosity or opposition to John F. Kennedy in his capacity as President of the United States?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; only the information was relayed to me that he was opposed to the Government of the United States, without mentioning the President or any other name.

Mr. JENNER. And you have no information on which you personally can rely of your personal knowledge, indicating that Oswald was a Communist?

Mr. MAMANTOV. You mean if I have proof--physical proof?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did you meet George Bouhe?

Mr. MAMANTOV. It is September or, I mean, late part of September or early part of October 1955, when I still was by myself in Dallas. I heard of him being from Estonia, which was mistaken and happened to be a Russian. So I called him up and we met in the restaurant. He came to my house--he came to my room where I rented. I forgot the number--3405, if I remember right, Milton Street, and invited me to eat with him out in the restaurant by name Europa, and there we ate and then somehow we went back, you know, I discovered he is White Russian and I am White Russian and he talked extensively about Mrs. Meller.

Mr. JENNER. Me-l-l-e-r [spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Mrs. Meller--right.

Mr. JENNER. Is she a White Russian?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; she is--she came the same way like Mrs. Ford came from--was brought by Germans into Germany and came to the States.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record a moment, please.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mamantov off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. On the record, now. Are you acquainted with what Lee Oswald's reputation was in the community in which he resided as to his personality? Now, in this question I seek to distinguish from his political beliefs. What kind of person was he--was he quiet, retiring, avoiding friends, did he have any reputation toward inclination to violence, or did he have a reputation in that connection, and if so, are you acquainted with his reputation in the community?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--the people who wanted to help Marina didn't want to help Oswald because he was holding back--I mean--people tried to start conversations, always he went into political questions and, of course, immediately he disagreed.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have a reputation for being unpleasant, pleasant, was he sociable in the sense that he was at ease among other people, did he seek their company? I'm asking now, only reputation, sir.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Again, I can say only in the houses he has been--for one reason or another he was disliked--I'll put it this way.

Mr. JENNER. All right--by the Russian emigre group as a whole?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. They had a low opinion of his reputation in the community, in that community of people--Mr. Mamantov?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. It was one of reservation, dislike--that they did not think well of his personality?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, he was holding back and he didn't try to make friends or he didn't try, was what I heard--he tried to keep Marina away from those people and appeared a couple of times with her in other Russian houses, but not very willingly and was holding back.

Mr. JENNER. He was holding back?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything else with respect to his reputation in the Russian community area? I'm not seeking specific instances, but only general reputation, the reaction of the Russian community group toward Lee Harvey Oswald before November 22?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; once he beat up Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that's a specific instance, and therefore is not reputation. May I explain to you that reputation in a community is what the whole body of the community feels after knowing a person for a while. It is a reaction gained by people in the community from many instances.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Not from the one instance.

Mr. JENNER. But, not from one--one instance is hearsay to us.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Well--only, I know that he was undesirable--and after people met him a few times, or, we say, met even once in their own houses, he was undesirable to those people.

Mr. JENNER. Was he regarded as a difficult person?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. I think you have said this, but may I ask you--your mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis, has served as a tutor for Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean--she get the job through me.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; of course.

Mr. MAMANTOV. That put her to work with Mrs. Paine. You see, what happened, Mrs. Paine was calling me at the office and asked to teach--and I told her I'm not interested to teach individual students, and I suggested my mother-in-law, and this way we made arrangement for my mother-in-law to teach her Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the reputation in the Russian community of Marina Oswald, and I'm going to ask you several subdivisions--first, as to her personality.

Mr. MAMANTOV. From what I heard, she was a very pleasant young girl, was quite open in her discussions, in her conversations. My conclusion was that she is very pleasant to be around.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with her reputation in the Russian community for truth and veracity?

Mr. MAMANTOV. For whom?

Mr. JENNER. As to her truth and veracity, that is, did she have a reputation with respect to whether she was or was not a truthful person?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, I see what you mean.

Mr. JENNER. A person upon whose statements one might rely?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know--as a community. I do know in our family discussion.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll take that part of the community.

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. We didn't accuse her one way or another way, but we couldn't understand how she could come out of the Soviet Union so easily and also, statements she made to my mother-in-law about him living in a small apartment, which we still have relatives and, I mean distant relatives, and we know that they cannot live in a comfortable apartment. For this reason, we have opinion, or, we wouldn't trust her on the first-hand information.

Mr. JENNER. Did she have a reputation in the Russian community with respect to whether or not she was a member of the Communist Party? Now, that is a political question.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Now, she told my mother-in-law----

Mr. JENNER. Now, please, did she have a reputation?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Wait just a second----

Mr. JENNER. A reputation, whether she was or was not--what did the Russian community as a whole, now, not just your mother-in-law?

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right--you want the Communist Party of the United States or Communist Party of the Soviet Union?

Mr. JENNER. All right, I'll take both of them--I'll take the Communist Party of the Soviet Union first.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Everybody knew that she was a member of the Communistic Youth Organization--she didn't even hide this, but I never have heard of somebody implying that she would be a member of the Communist Party of the United States, so as community, I don't think everybody considered her as well tied to the Communist Party as the community did Oswald himself.

Mr. JENNER. What was the general reputation, if any, of Marina in the Russian community on the subject of whether she had any fixed political views and might actively support those views here in the United States?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't know this--I mean--I don't have any opinion. I haven't heard anything--I know that she didn't--she avoided political discussions, I'll put it this way.

Mr. JENNER. She did?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She did avoid political discussions.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony, you are acquainted with the Fords?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. I think you said Mr. Bouhe was a bachelor?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. He is a bachelor now--he was married--he's divorced.

Mr. JENNER. He's a grass widower?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but he was a very short time widower--he could be married.

Mr. JENNER. Were you and your family aware of Bouhe's efforts, if they were efforts, to collect clothing and otherwise be helpful to the Oswalds?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. You were aware of that?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And was that in your opinion a good faith, charitable impulse on his part?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You think it might have been ulterior?

Mr. MAMANTOV. We objected immediately when we heard about this. We objected to every person who took Marina in their own house, in trying to collect money and clothing, and this supposedly happened after her husband beat her up.

Mr. JENNER. When there went through the Russian community a report that Lee Oswald had inflicted physical violence on Marina, then the community objected to assistance being afforded the Oswalds?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know--I think they were especially helping her, after they left Fort Worth, and they had domestic disagreements. Supposedly, she was attacked by him--then the Russian community here in Dallas tried to help her by taking her into the houses or collecting money and collecting clothing and stuff like that, so I opposed this more and more violently.

Mr. JENNER. But you do know that the Russian community, as such, of which Mr. Bouhe was a member, was seeking to assist her?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. By collecting clothing?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Gathering money and taking her into their homes on occasions?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right--assigning for certain families to keep for a couple of weeks or a week.

Mr. JENNER. That included Mrs. Meller?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That included Mrs. Meller, Fords, and he tried to get this person----

Mr. JENNER. When you say "he" you mean Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Mr. Bouhe.

Mr. JENNER. He tried to place her with whom--Mrs. Grolle?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; she's an elderly person and lives by herself and had a few rooms for rent and as far as I know, she didn't take her into her home.

Mr. JENNER. Well, we have no information that she did.

Mr. MAMANTOV. As far as I know, I don't think that she did, but I don't think that she did, but Mellers and the Fords took her for a week or for 2 weeks.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of a Mrs. Elena Hall?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Elena Hall--how do you spell it?

Mr. JENNER. H-a-l-l [spelling], E-l-e-n-a [spelling].

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; the first name--Elena Hall?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you see, we have a secretary, Helene, H-e-l-e-n-e [spelling] Hall, which couldn't be that person.

Mr. JENNER. No, that's a different person.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Paul Gregory or Peter Gregory?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; father, I think, is Peter.

Mr. JENNER. You mean one is the father and one is son?

Mr. MAMANTOV. One is father's name and one is son's name--that's correct, but his father is not living. Do you know how Russians call your name--if I would refer to you, it is your name first and your father's name second, instead of saying Mr. so and so, so that's how it appears.

Mr. JENNER. What do they say in case--since my name and my father's name are the same?

Mr. MAMANTOV. The same--it would be, if you are, for instance, Oswald, it would be Oswald Oswald, each ending implies you are a son of Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. You have already mentioned Volkmar Schmidt.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. He was a roommate or lived with Mr. Glover.

Mr. MAMANTOV. And a close friend of Dick Pierce.

Mr. JENNER. P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Also a geologist.

Mr. JENNER. Or, P-e-a-r-c-e [spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling].

Mr. JENNER. What was his first name?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Richard, R-i-c-h-a-r-d [spelling].

Mr. JENNER. Is Mr. Norman Fredricksen a student?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I was teaching scientific Russian for the Socony Mobil Research Lab in Duncanville, and this student joined. Actually, the class was carried out first, well, first semester and Mr. Fredricksen was hired by Socony Mobil and joined the class.

Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, I would guess around 28 plus.

Mr. JENNER. He is a young man?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; he came to--he served in the Army.

Mr. JENNER. Do you--the United States Army?

Mr. MAMANTOV. United States Army, was in Germany, and studied Russian in Heidelberg. When he came back, he did graduate work after the Army. He did graduate work at the University of Pennsylvania and had studied Russian, so when he came to my class he had a very good background of the Russian language already.

Mr. JENNER. Now, there was an occasion, was there not, in which this student, Norman Fredricksen, said something to you about Oswald; isn't that correct?

Mr. MAMANTOV. May I point out, I lost him for a while after I finished that semester, that interrupted Russian, and this was in the spring of 1961, and if I am right, about a semester or two semesters later, he and Volkmar Schmidt came to my home and asked me to conduct private lessons for both of them.

Mr. JENNER. Had you also been tutoring Volkmar Schmidt?

Mr. MAMANTOV. They came--right now, they came to my house. Not before--the first time I met Volkmar Schmidt was when Fredricksen and Volkmar Schmidt came to my home, and I said, "All right, I'll take both of you," and I talked to Fredricksen, and Volkmar Schmidt was described as knowing the same amount of the Russian language, and I found out he didn't know half as much as Fredricksen did and I offered to split and I would continue to teach for the same amount of money Fredricksen, and Volkmar Schmidt would take from my mother-in-law, who had time and willingness to teach individual students, so we split--I was tutoring Fredricksen and she was teaching Schmidt.

Mr. JENNER. And did there come this occasion when Fredricksen spoke to you about the Oswalds one night?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right, and Fredricksen and his wife came to visit with us.

Mr. JENNER. Your home?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and this was, I would say, sometime--March, April, might be of 1963, and so they told us yesterday or day before yesterday that they went to a very interesting party where the person present just came in from the Soviet Union and his wife, and the party was held at Glover's home. I asked him who was present. He said Mrs. Paine was present, of course, both Oswalds were present, and the De Mohrenschildts were present. Of course, Glover was present and I don't remember who else he mentioned, and we started the conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Was Fredricksen present?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, Fredricksen and his wife, he and my wife, my mother-in-law and myself violently jumped into the conversation, and I said, "Folks, you just don't know with whom you are associating. You shouldn't be at that party, and you shouldn't be going into those houses," and, of course, they said, "We just wanted to speak Russian. Mrs. Paine wanted to learn Russian, so we wanted to learn Russian and we just decided to get together and learn Russian." And they didn't speak Russian very much except with Marina. She was very shy and didn't talk very much. Most of the evening was spent conversing with Oswald on political questions, because he understood.

Mr. JENNER. This was the report they made to you?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. In the questioning by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, you mentioned either a Mr. Clark or a Mrs. Clark.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, those people from Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. What are their names--do you remember a given name?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't remember, but he is a lawyer and his wife, she is a Russian from France. He married her, I think, during the American occupation of Europe.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, Mr. Gregory is a native-born Russian?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, he is Grigor'er. He has changed his name--it isn't his original name.

Mr. JENNER. Originally, it was Gregoria and he changed it to Gregory, spelled G-r-i-g-o-r'e-r [spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. It could be--he spelled it also with an "e", but that's originally his name.

Mr. JENNER. He is a petroleum consultant of some type?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Petroleum engineer--correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is he part Russian--part of the Russian emigre group here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right. You see, we are not meeting with them for quite a while as a group. We broke away, but individually, I have been with Gregorys on a few occasions--I have been with the Clarks on few occasions together. I have been with Mr. Bouhe quite frequently in the past--whom else--the same I know them very well personally but we didn't meet--we don't meet as a group any more.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, do you have anything that occurs to you that you think I would like to add to the record that you think might be helpful to the Presidential investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy, in connection with its work in investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy; if so, would you please state what you have in mind?