Chapter XIII: Part 13

Mr. JENNER. A man of some scholarly attainment, by the way.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He certainly is. He loves books.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Anyway, we escaped from the famine, frankly, more than communism, and moved back to Minsk--whether we had a house, or I don't remember, but we had some possessions there. And we arrived there. And from then on we stayed there, although the Communists eventually occupied Minsk. Then my father was put in jail. I will make it short.

Mr. JENNER. Please--that is all right. I don't mind the shortness. But I want times. About when was your father put in jail?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first time in 1920, I think.

Mr. JENNER. And you were still with your family then?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At this time you were 9 years old.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother was still alive?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your father was seized?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. By whom?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the Communists, by the Communist regime.

Mr. JENNER. Why was he seized?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For being outspoken, I guess. I remember--the first time I don't remember, frankly. But the second time I remember very well, because this is very interesting. He was seized the first time. Then the Polish Army arrived--the Poles and the Russians were fighting at the time. And at the last moment the Communists released my father, because of the intervention of some friend, you see. And we always had some friends whom we had protected once upon a time, who always came and helped him at the right moment with the Communists, because many Jewish people he had helped became Communists, or halfway Communists. They helped him. And that is how eventually we were able to escape from Soviet Russia.

The first time he was released, the Poles arrived, we were in Poland again, that was a temporary occupation. And then the Poles retreated and the Russians arrived again. And here was the question to decide whether we should go with the Poles or stay in Russia. And my father decided to stay in Russia because being a liberal he had an impression that they have changed.

Mr. JENNER. That the Russians had changed?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he heard from somebody that they have become liberal. He stayed in Minsk, and because he stayed he got some kind of an appointment in the Soviet Government. I don't remember which one it was. I guess in the Department of Agriculture, because he was interested in division of big estates. That was his idea--what was going on in Russia was opposed by the huge estates. We had one, also, but not as big. So he was always in favor of the division of the big estates, breaking them up into smaller farms. And he had this appointment, adviser to the Minister of Agriculture--I don't remember what it was exactly. And we lived more or less happily for a certain number of months--although there was a famine there.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you are still in Minsk?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Still in Minsk; yes--in probably 1920. And then one day they arrested him again. And here is what happened. I will show you what kind of a person he was. At the time they were installing museums in churches. And my father objected to that.

Mr. JENNER. Your father was a religious man, was he?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he was not religious. But he objected by principle to that. He was not very religious at all. But he objected to the intervention into other people's faith. We never had too much religion in the family. And he was put in jail. And started criticizing the Soviet Government. And, finally--I remember this more distinctly--because he was finally sentenced to life exile to Siberia. And that I will never forget about my father--an interesting thing.

Mr. JENNER. He was banished to Siberia by the Russians?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. These are the Bolsheviks who had conducted the revolution. This was a revolutionary period?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. This is 1921 by now.

Mr. JENNER. You are now 10 years old?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I remained on the street making my own living somehow. My mother runs around the country trying to save my father. He is in jail for the second time, and finally he gets sentenced to life imprisonment in a town called Vieliki Ustug in Siberia. This is as far as I remember the name of it.

And why was he sentenced for that--because at the hearing, whatever they called the court, they asked him, "What kind of government do you suggest for Soviet Russia?" And he said, fool as he was, "Constitutional monarchy," and that was it. That was his sentence--just because of that. Because, actually, they didn't have anything against him. My father was a liberal and never hurt anybody. He became very sick in jail. And these friends--the friends whom he had helped previously----

Mr. JENNER. You mean true friends?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. In this particular case I don't remember their names. They were a couple of Jewish doctors who advised my father to eat as little as possible, any way to appear very sick, and finally--they themselves were his doctors. They finally made the position with the Soviet Government that he was going to die, he was not going to survive the trip to Siberia, because he was going to be sent directly to Siberia, with the family, with all of us. And that he should be released to stay home, and just appear once--a couple of times a week to show he is there, until his health condition improved, and he was able to be sent to Siberia.

And they did that, surprisingly, and they released him. And that is where he made his preparations for escape. And the same people, helped him to get some transportation, a hay wagon, and we crossed the border, in a very long and tedious way. But we crossed the border of Poland.

Mr. JENNER. You crossed the border into Poland, and he settled where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In a town called Wilno.

Mr. JENNER. That was yourself, your mother, and your father?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father. But my mother almost immediately died from typhoid fever which she contracted during this escape. We all had this typhoid fever.

Mr. JENNER. But she succumbed to it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And this was what year?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1922.

Mr. JENNER. You are now 11 years old.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At this point I might ask you--the name was Von Mohrenschildt at this particular time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your name is now De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I think your brother still uses the Von, does he not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I am more or less of a French orientation. And when I became an American citizen, I did not like the prefix "Von" which is German to the average person. And so we used "De" which is equally used in Sweden or in the Baltic States, interchangeably. And my uncle, who was here in the States for quite some time, and died here----

Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about him. You might as well give his full name.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. I will digress for a moment. Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt was some officer, or had a connection with the Russian Embassy here in Washington?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, please.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was First Secretary of the Czarist Embassy, the last Czarist Embassy here in Washington. He married McAdoo's daughter.

Mr. JENNER. William Gibbs McAdoo's daughter. She is now Mrs. Post.

Is she still alive?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she is still alive.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her first name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nona.

Mr. JENNER. Your uncle is deceased?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is deceased; yes.

Mr. JENNER. They were eventually divorced, were they not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; no--he died. They were never divorced. She was divorced many times--remarried and divorced many times. But he died--I guess in 1925 or 1924.

Mr. JENNER. Sometimes people refer to you as Baron De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't refer to myself as that, you know. But supposedly the family has the right to it, because we are members of the Baltic nobility.

Mr. JENNER. Through what source?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Through the Swedish source, from the time of Queen Christina. But my father never used the title, because of his perhaps liberal tendencies. Neither did Ferdinand, I think.

Mr. JENNER. And as near as I can tell, your brother never has?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My brother--I don't think so; no.

Mr. JENNER. At least I don't find it in any of the papers.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are an interesting person, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, to many people. They have gathered ideas about you, and many of them in the past at least have felt that you might have been, or that you perhaps were--had a title of some kind. I just wanted to explain that of record.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you in Wilno, Poland. You are 11 years old.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have some papers which say that we are barons, in my files. But, frankly, I don't--I think it is sort of ridiculous to use the title. My ex-wife loved the idea.

Mr. JENNER. Which one?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The very last one, Sharples.

Mr. JENNER. Am I correct that there were two children, yourself and your brother Dimitri?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And no others--just two children?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you stayed in Wilno, Poland, how long?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Stayed in Wilno until I graduated from gymnasium, which is the equivalent of high school. A little bit more than a high school. That must have been 1929. Not constantly over there, but that is where our home was.

Mr. JENNER. What did your father do in Wilno?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Wilno he fought for the--tried to regain back our estate. It happened to be we had an estate, a piece of land.

Mr. JENNER. In Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Russia--which became Poland--in Czarist Russia, but which became Poland. Right on the border. It became through the partition of Czarist Russia, it became part of Poland. And this estate was in Poliesie. That is a wooded area of Poland, right on the border.

Well, the estate was seized by the peasants and divided among themselves by themselves. It was not large, but it was--well, maybe 5,000 acres; 5,000 or 6,000 acres.

Mr. JENNER. I would say that is fairly large.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was able to regain it. He did not take it back from the peasants, but he regained ownership and was able to sell the forests from it, and eventually sold it back again to the peasants piece by piece. So we were not completely penniless refugees.

Mr. JENNER. Did your mother have an interest in that estate?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, it was mother's and father's estate, probably jointly.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, you completed your classical intermediate education, as you call the gymnasium, in 1929.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. So you are now 18 years sf age?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother is deceased. Did you live with your father during this period?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very close relationship I had with my father.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did you then leave Poland?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Then I tried to--I did not like the country very much, Poland. We became Polish citizens, but I didn't particularly feel at home there. I learned the language. But it didn't feel like home. And I decided to go to study in Belgium, and asked for permission to go to Belgium, and the Polish Government refused me the permission because I was close to the military age. So I volunteered for the Polish Army.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to go into that. Go right ahead.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I volunteered for the Polish Army and chose the cavalry and was sent to the military academy in Grudziondz. Well, it was a famous military academy in Poland where the Polish nobility displayed their ability to ride horseback. And I was able to get to it because I volunteered--I was 18 years old. I graduated from there.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. May I ask you this; Would it have been possible for any young man your age at that time, let's say, if I may use a reference, peasant, which you were not, to have volunteered for the same position or division in the Polish Army?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were some exceptions. Most of the people there were members of the aristocracy, Polish aristocracy, and German aristocracy, who happened to have estates in Poland. But we had some exceptions. But they did not survive later on. They were eliminated, not because of the snobbishness, but it was a pretty tough training, and you needed money to be in that school. You had to have a uniform, you have to have your own horse.

Mr. JENNER. Now, where did you get the funds to finance it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my father had this estate, sales of land from that estate, and he also was--now, this I forgot to mention about my father. He started originally as a professor in the gymnasium, then became a government official with the Czarist government. So he was always--always liked to teach.

Mr. JENNER. You are taking us back to Russia for a moment?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Back to Russia for a moment; yes. So now his profession as a government official was no good--neither his experience as a director of Nobel Enterprises was not much good. So he became a professor and a director of the gymnasium, the Russian gymnasium.

Mr. JENNER. That is the high school?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. High school, in Wilno. You know--where the immigrants send their children. And he was director of it for a number of years. I don't remember what exact years. I guess until 1929 or 1930. I didn't go to the same school, by the way. I went to a different school.

Mr. JENNER. You mean you went to a school different from the one in which he was teaching?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in order not to be under my father's--not supervision, but also that school did not give the rights in Poland, by the way--did not have the rights in Poland to go to a university in Poland or to serve a short military term, because it was a refugee school, conducted in the Russian language. So I went to a Polish school, had to learn the Polish language, and finally graduated.

Mr. JENNER. Did I mention Polish as one of the languages of which you have a command?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And, therefore, it was very important, because the military service for the people graduating from nonaccepted schools was 4 years, or something like that, and for the ones who graduated from the official school it was, I think, a year and a half.

Mr. JENNER. Now, how long were you in the military academy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A year and a half.

Mr. JENNER. And this would take us, then, to the middle of 1931.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1931; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you had reached what, if any, rank in the military service?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I reached candidate officer--sergeant candidate officer, an intermediate rank between an officer and noncommissioned officer. The highest you can get after you get from the military academy.

Mr. JENNER. Just before as in this country you are about to be commissioned a second lieutenant?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Except that you are not completely a soldier--you are not a noncommissioned officer, you are not a commissioned officer. You are about to be commissioned a lieutenant.

Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. Now, you didn't pursue that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. It was just a reserve. You see, it gives you a reserve rank which you can pursue by going back to maneuvers, and pursue that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, there are some indications that you did return.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me what you did in that connection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went to school, then to Belgium--I was free now to go to school to Belgium. And I went to Institut Superieur de Commerce a Anvers.

Mr. JENNER. The translation of that is the institute of higher commercial studies, Antwerp, Belgium. When attending the institution of higher commercial studies in Antwerp, you returned to Poland, did you, from time to time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In connection with your summer maneuvers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the requirement in that connection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just to come there when they called you, and go with the Army--summer maneuvers, summer exercises. I think I did that twice. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. And this was still in the cavalry?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Still in the cavalry.

Mr. JENNER. Were you ultimately commissioned?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; always stayed a sergeant.

Mr. JENNER. You entered the institute of----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the way, which was a commission--that is very hard to explain to you. It is like midshipman in the Navy. That is what it is. And since I did not pursue the military career, I remained a candidate officer.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I was not disqualified for any reason. On the contrary, I was the best actually, if I may say so.

Mr. JENNER. Let me pass for a moment in this connection so we can get it on the record here--your brother, Dimitri, 11 years older than you, he also devoted his time to the service, but to the Navy.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that was the Russian Czarist Navy, was it not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And tell us about that, please.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he joined the naval academy when I think he was 11 or 12 years old. That is what they have out there. They start very young. Do you want a little bit of the background of my brother?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; go right ahead.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is really a ferocious anti-Communist, so you would be very happy to hear about that. He was in the Russian Imperial Navy, became a midshipman.

Mr. JENNER. Give me some dates.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was a midshipman in 1918, in Sebastopol, which is the headquarters there.

Mr. JENNER. Now, he was born March 29, 1902, in St. Petersburg, Russia.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I thought he was born in 1900.

Mr. JENNER. Well, his records at the passport office give his birth as March 29, 1902, and he gives his birth in his biographical material at Dartmouth and Yale.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, anyway, he was a young edition of a midshipman. He was a midshipman in 1918, which is like graduation from Annapolis here.

Mr. JENNER. And did he actually serve in the Czarist Navy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. All the time you are in that school you are in the navy, all the time--even when you are 12 years old, you are a member of the navy. It is not like here.

Mr. JENNER. Did he participate in World War I, in the late 1918 period of fighting.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall where. He joined anti-Communist groups, was finally caught by the Communists, and sentenced to death in a town called Smolensk.

Here we were coming back to our--we were already in Minsk at the time, that was not too far. My brother was in Smolensk in jail, in a Communist jail. My father also in jail. And I was the only one at liberty. And my mother was running around trying to help both of them.

My brother was sentenced to be shot. He was put to the wall and they told him, "You will be shot when they say three, and they would say one, two--he was supposed to disclose the names of his accomplices.

Now, I do not recall; Yes, yes. The Polish Government exchanged him against a Communist. They made an exchange. They had some Communist prisoners, and my brother was with a group of Poles who were prisoners of the Communists, and the Poles exchanged him against some of my father's old friends. And I remember who it is. It was a Catholic bishop in Poland.

Mr. JENNER. What was his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lozinski. He was a bishop who was in jail with my brother, also, and they wanted him, he helped my brother to get out.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother join you in Wilno, Poland?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He immediately--it looks vague. I think he joined us for a little while, or he maybe went ahead of us and came to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. My information is that he emigrated to the United States on the 20th of August 1920.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. A little bit ahead of us.

Mr. JENNER. Does that square with your recollection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. You see, there was an intermediate year. The Poles had occupied part of Russia. I think we saw him just before he departed for the United States. The Poles offered him to join the Navy in Poland, and he decided to go to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I had digressed a moment because it was appropriate to have your brother come in at the point we reached. But we have you now in Belgium, attending the university.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had your brother had a higher education while he was still in Russia? That is, had he gone beyond the gymnasium stage?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. My brother was a midshipman in the Navy. He had only the naval academy education, and even shortened--short naval academy education. I don't know what you would compare it to. Certainly better than high school here.

Mr. JENNER. Junior college?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Junior college; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you continued your studies, did you, in Belgium?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you receive a degree from the institute of higher commercial studies in Antwerp?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I received what you called--master's degree, probably equivalent, because they don't have bachelor's degree there. You get immediately a master's degree--a license--in finance and in maritime transportation--another year of maritime transportation.

Mr. JENNER. And you attended this institute for 4 years, did you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For 5 years.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you received----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; all the degrees you can get there.

Mr. JENNER. This is one of the oldest commercial institutions of higher learning in Europe?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Something like the Harvard Business School?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; founded by Napoleon.

Mr. JENNER. And you received a----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a mixture of some engineering and commercial--not exactly like Harvard School of Business Administration. It lets you carry on industrial and business activities, with a specialization in maritime transportation.

Mr. JENNER. There is some indication that your degree is one of master of arts in commercial, financial, and counsular sciences.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you continued on--after you received that master's degree, you continued on for another year, did you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. No; you entered----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I entered the University of Liege.

Mr. JENNER. And how long did you study there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Two years.

Mr. JENNER. And you ultimately received a degree, did you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was that degree?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Doctor of science in international commerce.

Mr. JENNER. Did you write a doctorate thesis?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On what subject was it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was the subject of the economic influence of the United States on Latin America.

Mr. JENNER. Had you already acquired, through that, an interest in Latin America?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued that in subsequent years, have you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; a very useful dissertation it was.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you--let's see, this is about 5 years--you are about----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1938.

Mr. JENNER. We are up in 1938.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now,----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the meantime, my brother came to visit me from the United States. We had not seen each other since 1920. He was studying--he was pursuing his career, and eventually got married.

Mr. JENNER. To Miss McAdoo?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is my uncle. My brother married a lady by the name of Betty Cartright Hooker.

Mr. JENNER. That is right. And you were in partnership at one time with Edward Hooker, were you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment. She is still living, is she not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She still is living; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is she in this country or in Paris or Italy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is in New York now. I have her address some place. She lives between New York and Paris.

Mr. JENNER. Did you engage in some kind of a business in Europe during this period?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. While you were attending the university?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How did you manage that while you--inasmuch as you were pursuing your studies at two universities?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I had an interest in a sport shop with a girl friend of mine. It helped me to make ends meet.

Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that company?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The name was Sigurd.

Mr. JENNER. And that was devoted to what--readymade clothes, ski clothes, and that sort of thing?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you attempt to sell those throughout Europe?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In the process of doing so, did you then travel through Europe?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you get the funds to finance that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very little funds--maybe a $1,000, $2,000, from my father, and whatever savings my girl friend had. She was an excellent saleswoman.

Mr. JENNER. Had you received any funds from your mother's participation in the estate you had?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think that was the money that helped me to start--when I was 21 years old I received a couple of thousand dollars--although I did not take all the money away from my father, but at least part of it. Or maybe more than that--maybe $4,000 or $5,000. I really don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. There is some indication in the papers that it was as much as $10,000.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so.

Mr. JENNER. You just don't have----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a very successful operation, this business, Sigurd.

Mr. JENNER. Did you subsequently dissolve it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dissolved it, quarreled with my girl friend, decided to come to the States.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother had been over to see you in the meantime?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and that is what, by the way, induced me into coming to the States, because my brother and his wife came to meet me. They sort of were not too much interested in meeting a mistress--let's face it--and eventually it led to a breakup between us, between my ex-girl friend and myself.

Mr. JENNER. And you came to this country in 1938?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. May of 1938.

Mr. JENNER. May of 1938, I think it was. What did you do to sustain yourself?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I brought some money with me. I brought some money with me--something like $10,000, I would say.

Mr. JENNER. And what did you immediately do in connection with that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What did I do immediately?

Mr. JENNER. I mean did you enter into----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I started looking for a job, very unsuccessfully, if I may say so. In New York in those days, in 1938. I even started selling perfumes, I remember, for a company called Chevalier Garde.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any interest in that company?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; just purely as a salesman. I even sold some materials for Shumaker and Company.

Mr. JENNER. Where were you residing then, with your brother?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; part of the time. Then I had my own room.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother was then living on Park Avenue, was he?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. 750?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you--how long did you stay with him?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think as soon as I arrived we went to spend the summer on Long Island, Belport, Long Island.

Mr. JENNER. And at Belport, you made what acquaintances?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lots of people, but especially Mrs. Bouvier.

Mr. JENNER. Who is Mrs. Bouvier?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mrs. Bouvier is Jacqueline Kennedy's mother, also her father and her whole family. She was in the process of getting a divorce from her husband. I met him, also. We were very close friends. We saw each other every day. I met Jackie then, when she was a little girl. Her sister, who was still in the cradle practically. We were also very close friends of Jack Bouvier's sister, and his father.

Mr. JENNER. Well, bring yourself along.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That friendship more or less remained, because we still see each other, occasionally--Mrs. Auchincloss, and occasionally correspond.

Well, then, I realized there was no future selling perfume or materials in the State, and having had that background of the oil industry in my blood, because my father was the director of Nobel Enterprises, which is a large oil concern in Russia, which was eventually expropriated and confiscated, and I decided to come and try to work for an oil company. I arrived in Texas.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Before we get there--because that skips some things--one of your efforts was as an insurance salesman?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. How did you know that?

Mr. JENNER. You were unsuccessful in that, were you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very unsuccessful.

Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, you didn't sell a single policy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not a single policy.

Mr. JENNER. Over what period of a time did you pursue that activity?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I even didn't pass my broker's examination. I tried to get an insurance broker's license. I studied to be an insurance broker in the State of New York. And I failed dismally that examination. So that was the end of my insurance business.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you up to the advent of World War II, which was--this is about 1941.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But before that I was in Texas and worked for Humble Oil Co.

Mr. JENNER. Before 1941 you had gone to Texas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in 1939.

Mr. JENNER. You went to Texas in 1939?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And how did that come about?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I was interested in the oil industry and wanted to see in which way I could fit into the oil industry.

Mr. JENNER. Whom did you contact? How did you get there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went by bus--to Texas by bus. But what actually helped me was that my sister-in-law, my wife's sister, had a very, very close friend in Louisiana, Mrs. Margaret Clark--Margaret Clark Williams, who had large oil properties, large estates in Louisiana. That is about the year 1939.

I got to Louisiana, as the guest, I remember--with my sister-in-law's aunt, Mrs. Edwards. And then I looked the situation around in New Orleans and decided to apply for a job with Humble Oil Co.

Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. They had a branch office in New Orleans, but I had to apply for a job in Houston. So I went to Houston, and I applied for a job with Mr. Suman, who is vice president of Humble Oil Co. Also I met the chairman of the board of the Humble Oil Co. through mutual acquaintances.

Mr. JENNER. Did you return to Louisiana and do some work there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I worked in Terebonne Parish, on a rig.

Mr. JENNER. You worked on a rig. This is physical work?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Physical work, yes; lifting pipes, cleaning machinery.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, starting from the ground floor?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. If there is such a thing in the oil business.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely.

Mr. JENNER. Whatever the bottom was, you were doing it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. Very well paid, by the way--a very well paid job, but very tough--at the time, you see, what good pay was at the time.

Mr. JENNER. I think we might at this time see if I can describe you for the record.

You are 6'1", are you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And now you weigh, I would say, about 195?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Back in those days you weighed around 180.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You are athletically inclined?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you have dark hair.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No gray hairs yet.

Mr. JENNER. And you have a tanned--you are quite tanned, are you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you are an outdoorsman?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I have to tell you--I never expected you to ask me such questions. I also tried to get various jobs otherwise. I went to Arizona.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, one of the things I am trying to do is get your personality into the record, because many people have described your personality.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very different, probably.

Mr. JENNER. I wouldn't say very different. But you would be surprised the kind of things that are said about you. I don't know that you would be surprised.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know that I have friends, I have enemies.

Mr. JENNER. Well, everybody has.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I also went to Arizona, I remember, and tried to get a job as--I don't know if it is after this experience with Humble Oil Co.--probably--over--to get a job as a polo instructor at the Arizona Desert School. Since we played polo in the military academy, I know how to play polo. I am not an expert player, but I do know how to play polo, and I am a good rider, and was a good rider. So I tried to get the job in the Arizona Desert School for Boys. And for some reason I could not get this job. There was a job available. I don't remember what the circumstances were. I never got this job. But I think it is after my experience with Humble Oil Co.

Mr. JENNER. You worked in the Louisiana oil fields as--what did you call it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A roughneck, or roustabout, it is called.

Mr. JENNER. And you pursued that how long?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think 3 or 4 months.

Mr. JENNER. We are still in 1939?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably in 1939. And I got amoebic dysentery in Louisiana, and got very sick. I had an accident on the rig, was badly cut up--something fell on my arm, and then I got dysentery. And, frankly, I do not recall whether they fired me or I resigned myself. I do not remember. Maybe both--resigned and mutual agreement. But I remained very good friends with the chairman of the board of the company, Mr. Blaffer. And he gave me the idea already then to go in the oil business on my own. He says, "George, a man of your background and education, you should be working for yourself," and he explained to me the fundamentals of the oil promotion, if you know what I mean--drill wells, get a lease--drill a well, find some money to drill that well.

Well, I said, "Mr. Blaffer, frankly it is a little above me to go in so early in my experience in the United States--to go into that type of business. I don't think I am capable enough to do that."

Mr. JENNER. Well, you didn't have the capital at that time, did you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't have the capital. But he said you could do it without capital.

Mr. JENNER. All right. When you left the Louisiana oil fields, what did you do?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Went back to New York, recovered from my amoebic dysentery. And I don't remember whether it is then that I tried insurance or not. It is possible then that I was trying to work at this insurance broker's deal. And then this friend of my sister-in-law's, Margaret Clark Williams, died, and left all of us a certain amount of money. My sister-in-law, Mrs. Edwards, myself--I don't remember what it was, $10,000 I guess, each. And what happened then--yes, then comes the draft time in the U.S. Army.

Mr. JENNER. That is right; 1941.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you are in New York City.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am in New York City. I am called to the draft, and they found I have high blood pressure.

Mr. JENNER. With the advent of the war in Europe, did you----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I forgot to tell you.

Mr. JENNER. Did you volunteer?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I was mobilized by the Polish Army in 1939--since being a candidate officer, I was mobilized by the Polish Army, got the papers in 1939 that I have to return to New York, and I did return to New York in 1939. That was just exactly after my Texas experience with the Humble Oil Co.

Mr. JENNER. Your Louisiana experience?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Louisiana, Texas, the same company. And it was just--I was intending to return to Poland, because my father was there--I had very close connection with my father. Somehow I felt maybe it was my duty to be in the Polish Army.

And it was too late. The last boat, Battory, which took the people--I never arrived in Poland.

I reported to the Polish Embassy here in Washington. It was too late to join the Polish Army. Maybe all for the best, because I probably wouldn't be alive today.

Mr. JENNER. You have some----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You have to refresh my memory, because, as I say, I never expected questions like this. Sometimes if I make a mistake, it is not my intention.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't suggest you are ever making a mistake. You are calling on your own recollection.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; I am doing my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. At this particular time, did you have some, oh, let me call it, tenuous connection with some movie business?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. Facts, Inc.?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. That is another venture I went into.

Mr. JENNER. This was 1941?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a distant cousin by the name of Baron Maydell.

Mr. JENNER. Now, he was a controversial man, was he not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A very controversial person.

Mr. JENNER. In what sense?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the sense that some people considered him pro-Nazi.

Mr. JENNER. He was accused of being, was he not, during this period, a German spy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I don't know that. But he had been an officer in the Czarist Army. He was a White Russian. And having lost everything through Communism, he saw the future of his return to Russia, back to his estates, through German intervention. Like many other White Russians. He possibly was more German than Russian--although he had been a Russian citizen, officer of the Czarist Army, and so forth and so on. A controversial person, no question about it. But I liked him. And he offered me to learn something about the making of documentary movies.

Mr. JENNER. Documentary?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--which is Facts--what was it called? Film Facts Incorporated.

Mr. JENNER. Film Facts I think is the name of it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And he had a very interesting movie there of the Spanish revolution which he made. And this movie was shown all over the United States and was backed by--this, again, is my recollection, because it almost escaped from my mind. This movie was backed by quite a number of people here. I remember most of them--by Grace, who is president of Grace Lines today. So we decided with Maydell that we could make another documentary movie on the resistance of Poland. This is already--Poland had already been occupied. The movies were made in Poland, I think, by Americans. I don't recall that exactly--by Americans who were there during the occupation of Warsaw. And Maydell had these movies in his possession, and we decided to make a movie for the benefit of the Polish refugees.

Mr. JENNER. Resistance movement?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And collected money to that effect, small amounts of money from the sympathizers of Poland. To me it was actually a very pleasant experience. I tried to do my best, number one, to make some money; number two, to help the Polish cause.

So I went to the Polish Consulate, made arrangements for the consul to be a sponsor of this movie. And we eventually made this movie, put it together. It was about 45 minutes long--a very interesting movie, very moving picture of the resistance. But financially it was not a success. I don't even recall why. Either Maydell never gave me any money or something. Anyway, we broke up our partnership.

The movie did make some money for the Polish resistance fund. I think they used it showing around the country. The Polish organizations in the United States used that movie to show and collect money for their own purpose.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I remember the picture was called "Poland Will Never Die." It was an assembly job.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your interest was a business interest?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we also cut it together. We put the music together. I learned a little bit about the technical end of it. We did not own the studio, but we used the studio on the west side in New York to have the technical facilities. Not very complicated. But we did it all together.

Mr. JENNER. Was your grandfather born in this country?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; great grandfather, or great, great grandfather.

Mr. JENNER. Sergius Von Mohrenschildt, born somewhere in Pennsylvania, later went to Russia, entered the oil business?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I will be darned. I didn't know that.

Mr. JENNER. I am not saying it is so.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. We have in the family some Baltic Swede, an ancestor of ours, who was an officer of the Independence Army. But his name was not Mohrenschildt. He was Baron Hilienfelt. My brother knows of that, because he is more interested in it. He became an officer in the Army of Independence, took the name of Ross. He was an officer in the Army of Independence, and then went back to Europe and died there. And somebody was telling me there was on his tomb in Sweden, I went later on to Sweden, and I was curious and inquired about it. It was said he was a lieutenant or captain in the American Army of Independence. So my brother, I think, because of that, being an older member of the family, had the right to be--what do you call it--a descendant----

Mr. JENNER. Of the American Revolution?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He told me either he became a member of it, or could become a member of it. I have to ask him about that.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Did you once describe your work in the insurance business as the lousiest, stinkingest, sorriest type of business possible?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that wine company--was that the Vintage Wine, Inc.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I also was doing some selling of wine in Vintage Wine, Inc.

Mr. JENNER. On a commission?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you have mentioned the Shumaker Company.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is the name Pierre Fraiss familiar to you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is one of my best friends.

Mr. JENNER. Is he still alive?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What business was he in then?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was then chief of export of Schumaker and Company.

Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Fraiss have any connection with the French intelligence in the United States?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you become involved with him in that connection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it was just probably in 1941, I presume, in 1941.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we collected facts on people involved in pro-German activity, and----

Mr. JENNER. This was anti-German activity?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On behalf of the French intelligence in the United States?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was never an official member of it, you see, but I worked with Pierre Fraiss, and it was my understanding that it was French intelligence.

Mr. JENNER. And did that work take you around the country?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think we went to Texas together again and tried to contact the oil companies in regard to purchases of oil for the French interests.

Mr. JENNER. Were the Germans also seeking to obtain oil?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were trying to out-bid them. I think the United States were not at war yet at the time.

Mr. JENNER. That is right.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And so the French intelligence devised a system whereby they could prevent the Germans and Italians from buying oil by outbidding them on the free market. We went to Texas. We had some contacts there with oil companies. And also in California. There we met the Superior Oil people of California and other people, too, whose names now I have forgotten.

Mr. JENNER. When was that work completed?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I could not tell you exactly, but I think it is about--it was not completed. We just somehow petered out.

Mr. JENNER. Were you compensated?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No--just my expenses, traveling expenses, and daily allowance. It was handled by Mr. Fraiss. But no salary.

Mr. JENNER. Had you----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think this whole thing, when the United States got into war there was no more activity on their part, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Well, there was no need to outbid the Germans, because they could not buy oil here anyhow.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. So that is how it ended.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned a Mrs. Williams. Was that Margaret Williams?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And she made a bequest to you of $5,000, wasn't it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--I think $5,000--I thought it was $10,000, frankly.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember being interviewed in February 1945?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By whom?

Mr. JENNER. Some agents of the Immigration and Naturalization Service.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1945?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They interviewed me a couple of times.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you have been interviewed more than once.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Well, at that time you are reported to have said that Mrs. Williams left you the sum of $5,000, and I suggest to you that your recollection was better in 1945 than it is now.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, at or about the time that you were doing work with Mr. Fraiss, did you meet a lady by the name of Lilia Pardo Larin?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. She was in this country, was she?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, boy. Do you want to have everything about me? Okay. I met her through a Brazilian friend of mine.

Mr. JENNER. What was his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The King of Bananas of Brazil--his name will come back to me. Dr.--I forgot his name. Anyway, a rich Brazilian, medical doctor, very wealthy man, who traveled between Brazil and New York. Just recently I was talking about him with the Brazilian Ambassador in Haiti, and he says he is still alive and doing very well.

Dr. Palo Machado, Decio de Paulo Machado. An enormously wealthy Brazilian, who calls himself the banana king, who liked American girls, the good life, and very good businessman at the same time.

Mr. JENNER. You liked American girls, too, didn't you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not queer, you know. Although some people accuse me of that even--even of that. Not as much as some other people, you know--because this girl really was the love of my life--Lilia Larin. Anyway, both Machado and I fell in love with this girl. She was a divorcee.

Mr. JENNER. She wasn't divorced as yet, was she?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was divorced already once. But she had a husband some place in the background, who was a Frenchman.

Mr. JENNER. Guasco?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. With whom I got into a fistfight. Well, anyway, the best man won, as it goes in the book, and Lilia and I fell in love--I just got a discharge from the military service in the United States, 4-F, and she invited me to come with her to Mexico. This was my experience with the FBI. Really, it is so ridiculous that it is beyond comprehension.

Mr. JENNER. Well, on your way to Mexico----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Around Corpus Christi--really, if we didn't have a sad story to discuss, the death of the President, you could laugh about some of the activity of the FBI, and the money they spend following false trails.

Mr. JENNER. Well, they don't know they are false when they are following them.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I don't know whose advice they followed.

But, anyway, here we were about ready to enter Mexico and stopped for awhile in Corpus Christi. And there we decided to go to the beach, from Corpus Christi. I think my visa was not ready yet.

Mr. JENNER. You stayed at the Nueces Hotel in Corpus Christi?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and we went to the beach.

On the way back from the beach, all of a sudden our car was stopped by some characters.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You went to Aransas Pass?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And when you were in Aransas Pass, what did you do?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We swam; and probably stayed on the beach enjoying the sunshine.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What do they say we did?

Mr. JENNER. Did you make--take some photographs when you were in Aransas Pass?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly; of each other.

Mr. JENNER. You took no photographs of a Coast Guard station at Aransas Pass?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make any sketches?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I like to sketch. By the way, I forgot to tell you, I like to sketch. I sketched the dunes, the coastline, but not the Coast Guard station. Who gives a damn about the Coast Guard station in Aransas Pass?

Mr. JENNER. I can tell you that is what got you into trouble.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Is that so? Well, you know, you are the first one to tell me about that.

Mr. JENNER. I want to know this. This interest that you say you have, which I will bring out later, in sketching, in painting, water colors, and otherwise--you and this lady with whom you were in love were down at Aransas Pass, you went down there for the purpose of having an outing?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I even have those sketches today, of the Bay of Corpus Christi, of the seashore near Aransas Pass.

Mr. JENNER. You apparently were not aware of the fact this country was then at war.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But nobody told me there was any military installations around Aransas Pass.