Chapter XXIV: Part 24

The only thing I can say what he meant by it is that it seems to be that everything went wrong for Lee, starting with his childhood, you know, and no matter what he did it was always a failure. So anything that seems to be President Kennedy touched was turning into gold, he was so successful in his marriage. You know he was such a wonderful President and he had health and public office, everything, you know, so it could be that in the bottom of Lee's heart was some antagonism, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have that impression of the man?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, never at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he was envious at any time?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, and in fact that is what doesn't make any sense, because I don't think he ever said anything against, and whatever the President was doing, Kennedy was doing, Lee was completely exactly with the same ideas, exactly. If he would shoot Walker that would be understandable, even if he would be shooting at Connally that is understandable, too. We learned that Connally refused him honorable discharge, so he had a grudge against Connally, but President Kennedy, no.

Mr. JENNER. Please, did you know anything about the discharge incident?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. We read it in the papers after.

Mr. JENNER. I want to keep separated here what you learned about afterwards.

Governor Connally was never mentioned at any time?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never.

Mr. JENNER. That you had any contact with the Oswalds?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was his discharge from the Marines, was that subject ever mentioned?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was his boyhood ever mentioned?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. His boyhood?

Mr. JENNER. Boyhood.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Never, never.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything that he had lived in poverty or hadn't lived in poverty, that he had difficulty all his life?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; we never discussed that. I don't remember discussing that.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any mention of his Marine record, his record in the service, and what he had done?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I don't recall any conversation.

Mr. JENNER. So this paragraph that I have read, that is about it being a shame that crimes occur and there is so much jealousy for success, that was rationalization afterwards?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely.

Mr. JENNER. Then your husband says in this letter: "Better precautions should have been taken."

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right. I agree.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss that with your husband?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I agree. I didn't discuss that with him, but better precautions should be taken, especially when we learned later on that Adlai Stevenson was treated very poorly in Dallas, so they should have known that there were antagonism towards the Democrats, and they had no right really to permit the President to ride like that without that bubble after such demonstrations against Stevenson.

Mr. JENNER. So this remark in the letter is based on that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On that, exactly.

Mr. JENNER. That is as far as you are concerned?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as we are concerned, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband may have had something else in mind?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. I don't think so, but he may. Did he mention to you that we have this Birch Society in Texas, the right wing, extreme right wing?

Mr. JENNER. You go ahead if you have anything to say about that.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know if he mentioned it. He probably did. That there is a Democrat Party split, you know. The Republicans are one but the Democrats are two. A lot of Democrats didn't like what Kennedy was doing, especially they didn't like this approach to segregation, you know, and many other things. They thought he was too forward, too fast. Lots of people thought he was too young, you know. And so there was a lot of----

Mr. JENNER. Animosity?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Disturbances. Not exactly animosity, but they didn't exactly appreciate what Kennedy was doing and they were still Democrats. That is really terrible. That Birch Society is a horrible thing. It is almost like Ku Klux Klan.

Mr. JENNER. He also says on the second page of his letter: "I do hope that Marina and her children (I understand she has two now) will not suffer too badly throughout their lives and that the stigma will not affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have a lingering doubt, notwithstanding all the evidence, of Oswald's guilt." Now, that last sentence, did your husband discuss that with you?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. We talk about it very often.

Mr. JENNER. Did you talk about it at the time he wrote this letter?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. He wrote the letter, I wasn't there. In fact, I saw the letter accidentally because I just stopped by his office for something and he said, "I just finished a letter. Please mail it for me," or something like that, you know. Otherwise, maybe I wouldn't even see the letter.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, he did not discuss it with you before he prepared the letter?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not at all. In fact I did never know he was going to write the letter. I don't think he told me anything. He just wrote the letter.

Mr. JENNER. Did you take Marina to the dental clinic or laboratory more than once?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I took her twice there, I believe. They couldn't do it all at once. It was too much. One thing impressed me while we were in the clinic. You know she sort of perked up. It gave her a feeling that she was like back. She liked the uniform, you know. She said how it would be wonderful if she could work, also, be a pharmacist again and do something. That is when I told her learn English and you can do anything. The sky is the limit.

Did my husband mention to you about a strange thing about the Voshinins? It could be something or could be nothing, you see. It could be excused or maybe something they knew about Oswald. They refused to meet him. They refused to meet them, and it came to a point, you know I am pretty persistent when I want something and I was after her, I said, "For God sakes, you are always carrying on with every little Russian and this and that." I am not interested, but she is. "How come you still didn't meet the Oswalds?"

She said, "Don't ever mention it to me again. We have a reason."

I said, "What are the reasons?"

She said, "I cannot tell you."

Maybe it was an excuse that she just didn't want to, hearing of his personality. Maybe there is something else, I don't know. But that was very strange because they always carry on with every Russian, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you gave them these language records?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A phonograph.

Mr. JENNER. A little phonograph to play them on. You gave them money that you had received from George Bouhe?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right.

Mr. JENNER. But you didn't give them any of your own money?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not that I ever recall.

Mr. JENNER. You brought them gifts?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just tiny little things.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. You gave her some clothing.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I personally didn't. She didn't need it already. By the time we got to know her she had too much clothes and my clothes was too big for her. I was trying to fit her some of my things, some slacks or something. They were too big. It was too much trouble to have it altered for her and she didn't need to.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned on one occasion when she was at your home overnight you gave her----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is just for the night, the nightgown, like that.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know if Oswald received any financial assistance in addition to that which he received from Mr. Bouhe? Did Oswald ever discuss his finances with you and your husband?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so. I don't think we talked much about that. It is just that it is pretty tight because they have to pay out the debt.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any views that were antagonistic to the United States and its form of government?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. He objected to the way the integration question was handled, in this way. And I think we all do.

Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to segregation, was he?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, he was opposed to segregation. He wanted complete equality of rights because those people are just American as everybody else so it is really one of the worst problems we have.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, but I am trying to find out what his views were.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he is completely in accord with President Kennedy's policy on the subject. That is why it doesn't make exactly sense. He has no reason whatsoever, to our knowledge. Maybe he had something inside which he never disclosed to us, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Now, there have been interruptions yesterday and today in which we have been off the record and we have had some discussions. Is there anything that you have said to me or I have said to you off the record, that is, not when it was taken down, that I have failed to bring out that you might regard in any degree pertinent to this investigation?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the only thing, the question I actually brought up yesterday, it was not about Oswald. I mean in my thinking it was. I think you should investigate Ruby inside out because it just doesn't make any sense. That is what bothers me.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Otherwise known as Jack Rubinstein?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never heard of him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you or your husband ever frequent or were you ever in the Carousel Club or any of those night clubs?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. That he operated?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Were people in the Russian colony, including yourself, disposed to attend that sort of thing.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear Oswald mention the name Jack Ruby or Jack Rubinstein?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard him mention that. I don't recall ever hearing it. I didn't know of his existence.

Mr. JENNER. You say that Oswald was a temperate man, I mean as far as drinking is concerned?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; he wouldn't drink.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen Jack Ruby in the flesh?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. I mean apart from newsreels?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. TV? No.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina ever mention Jack Ruby?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything ever said that led you to believe or indicated that either he or she separately or together had ever frequented any of Jack Ruby's places?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing at all. The only link I am searching for is that I don't believe Jack Ruby did it because of his good intentions. I think there is something behind that killing. That is all there is to it. Until it is proven, I remain with my opinion, let's put it that way.

Mr. JENNER. But your opinion is formed on what you have read in the newspapers?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is the only thing I know.

Mr. JENNER. And not on any actual facts you know anything about?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, sir; and, also based on the natural deduction because I adore mystery stories and it just doesn't make any sense. The whole evidence just points to--the thing is much too simple. How could it be that if Oswald did it, could he be that completely stupid to leave the plans, according to the newspapers we learn of the march route of the Kennedy thing. Wouldn't he try to cover it up a little bit, you know? It doesn't make sense at all to me. I tell you the things that don't make sense to me. That was No. 1 doesn't make any sense.

No. 2, knowing more or less and observing him as a personality, if he would have done it he would say "I did it" and he would boast about it yet. That is the kind of a person he is. For some reason he clammed up for 2 days, and I know the Dallas police is pretty rough. He didn't have a good time, I am sure, and he did not.

What was his reasons? Maybe he was frightened he didn't want to admit it, he decided maybe, and maybe he didn't do it. How do I know?

It doesn't make sense at all. Anybody could take the rifle out of the garage. I understand it was wrapped up in a blanket and standing in a garage at Ruth Paine's; anybody could do it.

Mr. JENNER. You know nothing about any rifle except on that Saturday, that Easter Saturday when you went to their home? That is the first time?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. That you knew anything about a rifle?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is there anything that occurs to you that you think might be helpful to the Commission that you would like to add?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I can't think of anything. The only thing, I would like to definitely dip into is Yaeko, because that is the only person that was, you know, what I mean--maybe it was just because she is an intelligent girl and she likes to read a lot. Maybe they discussed some books, they hit it off this way, you know. Maybe he was attracted to her just as a cute Japanese girl. I understand he was with Marines staying in the east.

Oh, yes; I remember now. He was always telling--Marina was telling me the Japanese are such wonderful girls. They make such good wives and so on and so forth.

Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald had told her that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and that is why Marina was so irritated that he liked Yaeko. And she was sort of blase about it. He can take her, you know, take his little Japanese girl; she doesn't need him, something like that.

Mr. JENNER. She needled him?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she needled him with Yaeko. It may be completely imagination, you know, all of these things.

Mr. JENNER. You have appeared voluntarily?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What did you say?

Mr. JENNER. You have appeared voluntarily for the taking of your deposition?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, absolutely.

Mr. JENNER. You and your husband received a letter, did you not, from Mr. Rankin?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we did.

Mr. JENNER. General counsel of the Commission?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And with which was enclosed a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution 137?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which is the legislation under which the Commission was created, and a copy of President Lyndon Johnson's----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; two copies.

Mr. JENNER. His Executive order creating the Commission, No. 11130?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And fixing its responsibilities?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't know the details, but I assumed that is what it was.

Mr. JENNER. And you also received a copy of the regulations and rules under which these proceedings of the Commission are undertaken?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I probably did.

Mr. JENNER. I have no more. I appreciate very much your coming, and the Commission does. This has been somewhat of a burden, of course, to you and your husband, and your involvement with the Oswalds unfortunately has led to this.

Your husband has told us in considerable detail about the Haiti venture.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; you know this hurts us very much. You know Haiti is just like Dallas in a way. We have been gone for 10 days in Santo Domingo, San Juan, Santo Domingo. We come back three or four people said, "The American Embassy is looking for you." This alone, this fact alone is sufficient to start people thinking what is wrong with us that the American Embassy is looking for us, you know. That is how people are. So this is not very good, and I am sure my husband told you there was something else was done in Haiti. You know somebody wrote some kind of letter to the president, you know, which we don't know. The Ambassador is looking into it and there is a couple of people we suggested for him to see here to clear that out. That hurts very badly. I tell you another thing what hurts us very badly. I don't mind to come here at all and in fact it would be different another 2 weeks from now and I would enjoy the visit here very much. It is just not too timely because of my dogs in this condition to travel is misery. But in driving in this morning we called our lawyer in Philadelphia to see his little girl and he said, "Under those circumstances, you are forbidden to see your child."

The FBI was questioning him, was questioning his wife, was questioning the lawyer and the lawyer's wife told him that this time George did something very big.

Mr. JENNER. Well, he didn't.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that is what is happening, you understand. Here are the results. So it is the suggestion that we are going to fly there. We cannot do it tomorrow. The court is closed. We have to go to court and see maybe the court's order to permit, to see the child. So you see this affects us in someway. If you can somehow--at the moment we are concerned, of course, about Haiti and Haiti's project because a very good thing for everybody concerned. It improves the relations between the countries. It may help the poor people because he discovered quite a few things, and if he can bring capital here and mine it and make use of it, it will be wonderful, and the American people will make money and the Haitian people will benefit by it. He is doing something constructive, and he is really working with full heart.

The country is beautiful. We have gone on trips, he takes me whenever possible and he is really doing something constructive.

By people's ignorance it reflects on us, and he may lose the whole thing. Is there anyway in the future, can I discuss it with the FBI, if they want to know anything they want to know, do it in a more discreet way, because it definitely affects the businesswise, especially George, you know, he is foreign born. He has a long, long name. He looks a little bit like a German, you know. Everything is against foreigners, let's put it that way, and it is difficult, very, very difficult.

For no reason at all, we have all the time the kicks back to us, and when the man from the FBI came over to Port-au-Prince, you know, and he made the remark, "Why don't you like the FBI, George, why don't you like FBI?" I told him why we don't like FBI and we have good reasons, because you hurt us. You hurt us very much for no reason at all, asking people questions, and people beginning to think why would a person that is nice and quiet make people ask questions about this person? The minute somebody starts asking questions, it means something to it. That is what happens. How can we avoid it? How can it be stopped?

Mr. JENNER. We will see what we can do about it.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Really, I mean you are aware, maybe you can in conjunction, do something about it because I do understand that we should have Secret Service but let's have a little more secret. It is not secret enough if they just go and openly ask all the time about the character of the person, personality or this and that, you know. That leaves a very bad reflection and it could be that we wouldn't be able to see the little girl.

We are going back to Haiti. It could be right now we will be hurt by it. I told George, "Are you sure he told you the FBI came to see?"

He said, "Yes," so here we are. That is one thing. We will do anything we can do to help because it is our duty and I cannot say it is a pleasure, but we are glad to do anything we can, but we cannot be hurt like that because George would lose that now, you know we will be in a rough spot again until something else come up and nobody knows when it will come up.

For me, right now it is very difficult in designing because I don't like to live in New York. In New York I can have fantastic job in 2 minutes, but I don't want to live in New York, I don't like the climate, and in Dallas people are so narrowminded, you know.

Now that we knew Oswalds you know they really think we are boogeyman or something. So it is really rough for both of us, and we are very anxious that something would be done that wouldn't affect us in Haiti, let's put it, at the moment, and in future, especially with George's little girl.

If you can do anything about it, we would greatly appreciate it.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You want the addresses?

Mr. JENNER. No; those names will be sufficient for us. Our procedure is that you may read your deposition if you wish, and then sign it. But you may also waive that. You don't have to do it unless you wish.

Your husband decided that he might be curious enough to read his deposition, but if he didn't appear today that that meant he waived the necessity of reading it.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he is too busy. He has so many little things to do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you like to handle it the way he has handled it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am sure, because if something was not just exactly so, I don't think it really matters.

Mr. JENNER. These men are quite competent and they take down everything.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is wonderful.

Mr. JENNER. Then you will waive your reading and signing?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Do you want me to sign it? Does it have to be signed?

Mr. JENNER. No; not unless you insist on it.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't care. It doesn't matter one way or the other.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you very, very much.

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE

The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March 21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and Norman Redlich, assistant counsels of the President's Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Let the record show that this is a continuation by deposition pursuant to leave granted by the Commission of Mrs. Paine's testimony before the Commission which we had concluded late in the day yesterday.[1]

[1] The testimony of Mrs. Ruth Paine given before the
Commission appears in another volume, and can be found
by consulting the Index.

I think it might be well, in view of that transition, if Mrs. Paine were sworn again, or if you were affirmed, rather.

The REPORTER. Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. PAINE. I do.

Mr. JENNER. I think we might cover your background to some extent, Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. My material indicates that you were born in New York City.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. In 1932.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you remained in New York City until when?

Mrs. PAINE. I think that time I stayed about 2 weeks, just long enough to get out of the hospital.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Immediately after your birth, or substantially so?

Mrs. PAINE. My family moved to New Jersey.

Mr. JENNER. And your family moved to New Jersey. And you lived where?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was Park Ridge, N.J. We had lived there before, I remember.

Mr. JENNER. But do you recall then moving from Park Ridge, N.J.?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I first recall living in the country not far from Freehold, N.J.

Mr. JENNER. But you did eventually move to Columbus, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. We moved back to New York when I was 8, and from New York then moved to Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. JENNER. And what age were you when you moved to Columbus, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. I must have been 10 or about to be 10.

Mr. JENNER. And you attended elementary schools and high school in Columbus?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is my information correct that you entered Antioch College at Antioch, Ohio, in 1950?

Mrs. PAINE. In Yellow Springs, Ohio, in 1949.

Mr. JENNER. 1949 was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you eventually received a degree from Antioch College?

Mrs. PAINE. I did, in 1955.

Mr. JENNER. You might state for the record what the character of Antioch College is. It is special in some respect, isn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it has a work-study plan, whereby the students study a portion of the year and then go to jobs all over the country, to work in special fields, a job of their own interest, and the college helps to obtain these positions.

Mr. JENNER. And do you receive any kind of credit?

Mrs. PAINE. In order to graduate, you have to have both credit in the academic work and credit from your job placements.

Mr. JENNER. Does Antioch College--I know you said you were of the Quaker faith--does Antioch College have any connection with the Quaker faith?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it doesn't.

Mr. JENNER. What was your major at Antioch College?

Mrs. PAINE. I majored in education.

Mr. JENNER. And seeking to prepare yourself as a teacher?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And did you pursue that major or at least activities in connection with that major in your cooperative work?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. I was also interested in group work and in recreation work, but there was no major in that field at Antioch, so my job placements were a combination of both work in elementary schools and group work.

Mr. JENNER. And have you pursued, really pursued your interests in group work ever since?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or group activities, at least?

Mrs. PAINE. I pursued the dual interest of education and group work, yes, in the jobs I have sought.

Mr. JENNER. You had by that time already embraced the Quaker faith, hadn't you, when you entered Antioch, at the time you entered Antioch College?

Mrs. PAINE. At the time I entered I was not yet a member. I joined in the winter of 1951, so it was still a year and a quarter before I became a member.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned 1947 yesterday. Was that a----

Mrs. PAINE. That was when I first became acquainted with the Quakers and their beliefs, and I was active in attending the Friends meeting in Columbus from that time on.

Mr. JENNER. Now, these cooperative studies, my information indicates that in the first quarter of 1950, that is, January through March, you were recreation instructor and a leader in the Jewish community at Indianapolis, Ind.

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And do I correctly summarize in capsule form the nature of your work at the Jewish Community Center in Indianapolis?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That is recreation instructor and leader?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then in the summer of 1950 you were a camp counselor at Big Eagle Camp at Indianapolis, Ind.?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Also, apparently--I am not certain of this--that during the summer of 1950 you served as a recreation leader of the American Friends Service Committee?

Mrs. PAINE. No; that would have been the following summer.

Mr. JENNER. That would be 1951?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And where did that take place?

Mrs. PAINE. With the American Friends Service Committee?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. That was in Rapid City, S. Dak., as part of an American Friends Service Committee work camp.

Mr. JENNER. And then in the fall quarter 1951, that is October, apparently, through January 1952, and then March through May of 1952 you were a recreation instructor and a leader in the Downtown Community School in New York City, N.Y.; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is after reentering Antioch.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Right. The job you describe was part of my work placement from Antioch College.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I had so understood.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you. And then the quarter October through December 1952 you were a recreation leader at the Jewish Community Center in the city of Columbus Recreation Department. Do I have those correctly stated?

Mrs. PAINE. That was a period of 8 weeks; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And was your position a position of recreation leader?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. And that was part of the cooperative schedule; was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then September and October 1953 and January through March 1954 you were an elementary school teacher at the Mad River Township School, Dayton, Ohio.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. What did you teach?

Mrs. PAINE. I taught first graders. I particularly had the slow learning class.

Mr. JENNER. And that was part of the cooperative program at Antioch; was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. Then in the summer of 1954, June and July, my notes indicate a summer tour with the American Friends Service Committee; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I recall that.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state what the nature of that was?

Mrs. PAINE. It was not with the American Friends Service Committee; it was with a different group of Friends, with the Friends----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--Friends in this connection is spelled with a capital F? Forgive my interruption.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, this was a tour sponsored by the Friends World Committee. We did some traveling and the tour included a summer term at Pendle Hill.

Mr. JENNER. Where is Pendle Hill?

Mrs. PAINE. Pendle Hill is in the Philadelphia suburban area, and it is a school for religious and social studies maintained by the Society of Friends, Quakers.

Mr. JENNER. Is it all one word, Pendlehill, or two words?

Mrs. PAINE. Two words.

Mr. JENNER. You told us yesterday that in the summer of 1952 you were a delegate to--state it again.

Mrs. PAINE. The Friends World Conference, at Oxford.

Mr. JENNER. Oxford, England?

Mrs. PAINE. England.

Mr. JENNER. And you also attended----

Mrs. PAINE. A Young Friends Conference.

Mr. JENNER. At Reading, England.

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Then the period August 1954 through May 1955, you were associated with the Young Men's Hebrew Association and the Young Women's Hebrew Association of Philadelphia, Pa.?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you were particularly given an assignment, and I may say everybody anticipated it being a difficult one, of working with the Golden Age Club. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I had three club assignments and this was the one that took the most time.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us what those assignments were? You say there were three.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I worked with the Golden Age Club as you have already said, with a group of young adults, and also with an open lounge, recreation lounge with games and playing cards, newspapers, for members' use.

Mr. JENNER. I think it would profit us in bringing out your background if you take those three groups and in capsule form tell us what your work in connection with those groups was. Take the Golden Age Club first. They were a group of what people?

Mrs. PAINE. The Golden Age Club consisted of people over the age of 60, all of them Jewish.

Mr. JENNER. Were they all emigres?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my knowledge, all or certainly nearly all were emigres. In fact, most of them had come from, a good many of them had come from Kiev, and they had come around the turn of the century.

Mr. JENNER. That is a city in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and they spoke Yiddish in conducting their business meetings, to one another, although since most of them, all of them had been in this country for a long time they understood English and spoke it. There were some who did not read and write English, and I undertook to teach a few.

Mr. JENNER. What was your particular activity in connection with this group?

Mrs. PAINE. I was to help them in achieving their plans for parties and club activities and to act as liaison between the club and the Y, which sponsored the club.

Mr. JENNER. Were these elderly people, set in their ways, who avoided change?

Mrs. PAINE. I felt it would be quite a remarkable group of very interesting people, and very able people. I felt that as a club leader I didn't really need to do much more than stay out of their way and help them in communication between one another and specifically in communication between the club and the organization, the Y.

Mr. JENNER. In general, what was their view towards the United States of America, as a group?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, they loved America very much. They raised their families here.

Mr. JENNER. That is the first of those three groups.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was the next?

Mrs. PAINE. The second was the group of young adults that met once a week.

Mr. JENNER. Did they have any particular characteristic other than that they were a group of young adults?

Mrs. PAINE. They were a group of older young adults. They particularly needed to make social contact and some of them just to learn how to date and meet.

Mr. JENNER. Were they likewise people who had come from Russia or Poland?

Mrs. PAINE. No, no; they had been born here.

Mr. JENNER. They were apparently disadvantaged in some respect. Would you indicate what that was?

Mrs. PAINE. I felt they were not as able a group. The individuals in the group were not as able as the ones in the Golden Age Club, and they needed a great deal of help in their planning and in achieving simple party.

Mr. JENNER. Your work actually was group activity, singing groups, dancing groups or activities, rather, was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Not particularly singing and dancing. Again, of course, it was liaison between this club and the Y. But leadership here was more in the role of enabling them to achieve what they wanted than being the visible head of the group. The group had its own president and officers.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have to do any teaching in connection with either the Golden Age or the young adults group?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The third was, I think you described it, as the lounge.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was an informal lounge for members of the Y. They could come in and play chess, checkers, talk, read magazines. This required the least from me in the leadership.

Mr. JENNER. It was in this connection that you acquired some interest, or at least you attempted to acquire a facility in the Yiddish language?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; because of my work with the Golden Age Club. I had already studied some German so that I understood. The two languages are similar enough that I understood some of the content of their business meeting which they conducted in Yiddish.

Mr. JENNER. I have forgotten now, if you will forgive me. By this time had you taken a course in Russian at the university?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I hadn't.

Mr. JENNER. Had these activities at least in part that we have gone through this morning awakened, or stimulated your interest in the study of Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. No; had these activities?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Stimulated my interest?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I will jump way back now, go backward a little bit to your pre-Antioch College period of activity.

Do you recall that as early as 1945--1946, that you were part of or at least engaged in the activities of the World Truck Farm in Elyria, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. Wolfe is the name. It is the man's name; the owner's name; Wolfe Truck Farm.

Mr. JENNER. This was a private----

Mrs. PAINE. It is just a private farm; yes.

Mr. JENNER. I thought it was an activity, and it arose out of the fact that the word "World" instead of "Wolfe" was furnished to me.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Wolfe's Truck Farm?

Mrs. PAINE. It was. This was a group of girls and all from Columbus, Ohio, all from the school I was just entering at that time, and at a time when labor was very hard to find, just at the end of the war.

Mr. JENNER. You say entering a school at that time.

Mrs. PAINE. I was about to enter high school.

Mr. JENNER. That was high school?

Mrs. PAINE. And we earned a small amount for our work there, and we felt patriotic in helping to supply labor where it was needed, because so many of the young men were away at war, or in the Army.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that in 1947 you served as a teacher in the Friends Vacation Bible School?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little bit about that.

Mrs. PAINE. This is the same summer when I was first introduced to Friends activities, and I was asked to be a leader, a teacher with a traveling Bible school. We went to three different small towns in Indiana and Ohio, and taught young children. I led songs and games and read stories.

Mr. JENNER. So at this time you were 15 years old, 14 or 15, right in there?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. In 1948 you served as a leader in craftwork at the Presbyterian Bible School in Columbus, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little bit more about that activity.

Mrs. PAINE. It was similar to what I had done the year before. I had enjoyed it the previous summer and looked for Bible school work then in Columbus. You have described it entirely. It was working with crafts and----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Did I interrupt you?

Mrs. PAINE. Working with children in crafts with them.

Mr. JENNER. Also in 1948 you were an assistant in children's physical education work at the Universal School, Columbus, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. University.

Mr. JENNER. University, was it?

Mrs. PAINE. This was the school I attended.

Mr. JENNER. That was your high school?

Mrs. PAINE. This was the high school.

Mr. JENNER. But you also served as assistant in the children's physical education activities?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that in 1949 you were a leader and counselor to underprivileged children, a children's club group in Columbus, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe that more fully and also what the particular group was?

Mrs. PAINE. It was exactly as you have described it, a group of underprivileged children. We were without an agency in particular, and no particular place to meet, but we met in the homes of the families. This was basically sponsored by the families.

Mr. JENNER. By the families themselves?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I had volunteered to a friend of mine who had worked with these families previously, to lead a weekly club group meeting, and, again, the activities were songs and dancing and craftwork. I guess not dancing--more likely stories.

Mr. JENNER. Were these quite young children?

Mrs. PAINE. They ranged in age from, perhaps, 7 or 8 to 13. I had a helper who was 13.

Mr. JENNER. Did you do some teaching at Pendle Hill eventually?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You did not?

Mrs. PAINE. You have not mentioned one time when I attended. I attended in the----

Mr. JENNER. I meant to ask you if I had left out anything.

Mrs. PAINE. I attended Pendle Hill first in the fall of 1950, for the fall term.

Mr. JENNER. That ran over a little bit into 1951, didn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it closed with the Christmas holidays.

Mr. JENNER. Did you return to the Friends School or Pendle Hill and do some work in 1956?

Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about Pendle Hill? I don't recall; no. I may have occasionally attended a lecture, but that is different.

Mr. JENNER. I think we might help this way. You were married to Michael R. Paine on the 28th of December, 1957?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In what activity were you engaged at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. I was teaching school at the Germantown Friends School. Germantown is a section of Philadelphia.

Mr. JENNER. When had you commenced that activity, that is, teaching at Germantown Friends School?

Mrs. PAINE. I began in the fall of 1956, worked there 1956 to 1957 and 1957 to 1958 school years.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do? What was your work?

Mrs. PAINE. I was the playground director and rhythm and dance teacher for grades 1 through 6.

Mr. JENNER. During all of that period?

Mrs. PAINE. During those 2 years.

Mr. JENNER. Did the Germantown Friends School have anything to do with Pendle Hill?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I see. That is where my confusion arose.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You have already mentioned you attended various Friends conferences over this period of years, did you not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And you maintained a lively interest in the activities of the Friends Conferences, especially the young people's groups?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You already mentioned or made some reference to a Friends Conference at Quaker Haven, Ind., September 1955, I believe in your testimony, have you not?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it would have been August.

Mr. JENNER. August 1955?

Mrs. PAINE. It has to have been before school started.

Mr. JENNER. Was it with respect to this conference that you mentioned the Young Friends of North America meetings, and that you were active in that group, and that group was interested in easing the tensions between the east and the west?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a subcommittee of that group that had that particular interest.

Mr. JENNER. And out of this interest and activity arose the Russian pen pal activity and bringing of some Russian students over to America to see and observe America?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that. I think we covered it enough yesterday.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say that was your initial interest in the Russian language or at least the pursuit of the study of the Russian language arose about that time?

Mrs. PAINE. My interest arose about that time. Pursuit didn't begin until later.

Mr. JENNER. In some of the materials I have seen there is mention of a Young Friends meeting or conference at Earlham College in Richmond, Ind. I think you made some reference to that yesterday, did you not?

Mrs. PAINE. There was a conference, a Young Friends Conference at Earlham in 1947. That was the first one I ever attended. Is that----

Mr. JENNER. No; well, I don't wish to say that isn't so, but you did attend another one in 1954-55, along in that time, didn't you?

Mrs. PAINE. There are a great many meetings for the Young Friends Committee of North America, and they were commonly held at Earlham College, but they were not conferences.

Mr. JENNER. I see. I am using the wrong terminology.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; these were committee meetings and there were a number of them.

Mr. JENNER. This was in further pursuit of the exchange of the interest by pen pal letters and otherwise between young people in America and young people in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. This would have been one of the subjects of the committee meeting.

Mr. JENNER. Is there, or was there a Russian Friends group in Wallingford, in Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. You mean people who were both Russian and Quakers?

Mr. JENNER. I am not too sure just what I do mean, because my information is so limited.

Mrs. PAINE. It brings nothing to my mind.

Mr. JENNER. It does not?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. It would appear that this was, my notes are a little garbled, I see, that the three Soviet students to whom you made reference yesterday came over here in 1958. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That fits with my memory of it.

Mr. JENNER. And it was the Young Friends group in which you were interested which stimulated, in cooperation with the State Department, as I recall it, the bringing of these three young Soviet students over here?

Mrs. PAINE. We sought advice from the State Department; yes; and from the American Friends Service Committee, also.

Mr. JENNER. And we covered that yesterday so we needn't trouble you with it again. Your only participation or contact with these three Soviet students, I understand from your testimony, was you attended one meeting--was it a dinner--and you had no other contacts with them, either before or after?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. They went on from--where was this, in Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And they went on from there to see other parts of America?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever met knowingly, that is, that you knew, any native Russian people other than these three Russian students and Marina, that is to say up to November 22----

Mrs. PAINE. You mean people who had been born there?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Well, of course, your golden age group. There were some who had been born in Russia.

Mrs. PAINE. A great many. I am not certain where Mrs. Gravitis was born. I think she was born in Latvia. Any such contact was certainly in very brief passing, as, for instance, I met a group that had come to Dallas to play chamber music. They were all from Soviet Armenia, and talked with these people. That was a year ago. But if there were any other contacts they were of that sort.

Mr. JENNER. Have you, in these long tedious days that we have had with you, pretty well exhausted all of your contacts with any native Russians or any Russians who were naturalized Americans, and indicated the character of your contacts with them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. You are perfectly free to add any others, if you wish.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think of any particular contact.

Mr. JENNER. Would it be a fair summary on my part to say that your contact with these people had been largely either in connection with your interest in the Quaker Friends groups and their activities, and your work in furthering their activities, your avid interest in the study of and improvement of your command of the Russian language and then your contacts with Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. I would say it was mostly the latter. I met very few native Russians through my interest in Friends, but through being interested in Russian there were a good many native Russians at the Middlebury College, for instance, and the Berlitz teachers have to speak natively whether or not they were born in Russia, so that these would be my contacts.

Mr. JENNER. Your pen pal correspondent in Russia, at least the second one, was Nina Atarina?

Mrs. PAINE. Aparina, A-p-a-r-i-n-a.

Mr. JENNER. And she is the school teacher?

Mrs. PAINE. She is.

Mr. JENNER. And you haven't heard from her in, did you say, 6 or 8 months?

Mrs. PAINE. It would be a year, I am quite certain.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, in your own words would you tell us something about your father and mother, your family generally, their interests? Put it in your own words. We are just trying to supply a background.

Mrs. PAINE. I can start most easily with their present activities. My mother has just completed work for a bachelor of divinity from Oberlin College in Ohio. She has already been ordained as a minister of the Unitarian Church. She hopes to do work as a chaplain in a hospital, and toward that end has 6 more weeks training to complete in inservice training in a hospital. My father is working for a Nationwide Insurance Co. He has been on special assignment from them to--I am not certain of the name of the organization--to cooperative alliance in Europe.

Mr. JENNER. That is a cooperative alliance of insurance companies?

Mrs. PAINE. Having to do with insurance; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Insurance companies?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is my understanding.

Mr. JENNER. This is a commercial activity, isn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so. And----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. The cooperative alliance in Europe, does that include any Iron Curtain countries?

Mrs. PAINE. No. He is presently teaching a course at Ohio State University, and is on loan for that portion of time which he occupies with teaching from his regular job at Nationwide, although he is at the company most of the time.

Mr. JENNER. What is the subject he is teaching?

Mrs. PAINE. It has to do with insurance.

Mr. JENNER. You start out at the end rather than the beginning, Mrs. Paine. We don't want to go too far back, but let's go back to your high school days. Was your father an insurance----

Mrs. PAINE. He worked for the same company then.

Mr. JENNER. The same company, in Columbus, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have your parents had any interests in political matters?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Most of that interest I absorbed from hearing it told about, rather than being around when it was going on. Most of the activity was in New York and, as I have said, I moved 2 weeks after I was born from New York. But they have always been interested in what is called the cooperative movement.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me what you understand----

Mrs. PAINE. My understanding is that the consumer owns the business. In other words, holds the shares, the stock that control, and determine the management of the business, and share in the profits.

Mr. JENNER. Is that something like what I would call a farmers cooperative?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know what farmers cooperative is.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe what you understand the cooperative movement is?

Mrs. PAINE. I think consumers cooperative is somewhat different. I am not certain what farmers cooperative is. I know that they were interested in and voted for Norman Thomas when they were in New York.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever had any interests of that nature, that is an active political interest in a political party? For example, the Socialist Party of which Mr. Thomas was the head, or leader?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from this thumbnail sketch of your life up to the present moment, your interests were largely in the Friends and recreation for underprivileged children, people who needed help. Your interests were in the social area, but not a political party interest.

Mrs. PAINE. That is a correct statement.

Mr. JENNER. How would you describe your family from the standpoint of their social standing or their financial standing? Were they people of modest means?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. My family was middle income who spent rather more money on education and good medical care than most people in our income.

Mr. JENNER. And they were modest in their tastes, I gather this, frankly, from reading the correspondence between your parents and yourself. I mean modest in their material tastes.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; and certainly the means were modest.

Mr. JENNER. I gather from reading some of the letters and some of the reports of interviews with others, and may I say to you, Mrs. Paine, that the people with whom you have been in contact over the years think very well of you, and particularly your activities in connection with the Friends and your teaching and recreation, would you say that the pattern of your life has been one of seeking to help others and of the giving of yourself to others in that respect?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think that is a fair statement.