Chapter VII: Part 7

Mr. JENNER. No expressions that you could understand or, at least, conduct between them that would lead you to believe there were evidences of love and affection?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. It was more platonic--a friendship relationship?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Did he visit on more than one occasion in your home during the 2-week period?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; on several occasions.

Mr. JENNER. And on these occasions, was it always that he called and asked to come over, or were you told that he was coming and there had been a previous arrangement--or what do you recall as to that?

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, I think perhaps once or twice Marina instigated their meetings, would call him and he would then come.

Mr. JENNER. Was he always transported, or did he come----

Mr. TAYLOR. I think he may even have come by himself once or twice. We were not far from downtown and had good bus service--and I remember at least one occasion where he rode the bus. He left late one evening and rode the bus back to town.

Mr. JENNER. Any questions, at any time during the 2-week period or at any other time, about his ability to operate an automobile on the streets?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was discussion about this possibly on two or three occasions.

Mr. JENNER. With him?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember him being present or having knowledge of them. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt tried to get me to teach him how to drive, and I never did.

Mr. JENNER. You never got around to it?

Mr. TAYLOR. I never had any time or inclination to use my automobile to teach a beginner how to drive.

Mr. JENNER. Your understanding was from Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that he was unable to operate an automobile?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. But you had no direct conversation with him on the subject?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or with Marina through an interpreter?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did this conversation with respect to inducing you to attempt to teach him to drive a car occur in the presence of Marina?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether Mrs. De Mohrenschildt then, in Russian, spoke to Marina on the subject in your presence?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't remember the details such as that on the various discussions we had. I just remember that on several occasions they did try to get me to do it, and I refused.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive or was there paid or offered to be paid to you anything by them, Lee or Marina, financially for this generosity on your part of keeping her in your home for that 2-week period?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. You never received anything?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive anything from anybody other than Marina and Lee Oswald?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. You never received anything from anybody at all?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. The answer is "Yes; you have never received anything from anybody."

Mr. TAYLOR. I never received any financial reimbursement for any of the expenditures that I made on their behalf.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the 2-week period concluded and was there something that occurred in particular that brought about the termination of that 2-week guest period?

Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Hall--I believe you said Elena--had an automobile accident and I think Marina went to Fort Worth and lived in Mrs. Hall's home so that she might help Mrs. Hall. Mrs. Hall was at least semibedridden. She was certainly not able to get up and cook herself food and so on.

Mr. JENNER. Was she living alone at that time?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes she was.

Mr. JENNER. That is, Mrs. Hall?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; the only reason I remember about Mr. Hall was by associating it with either Midland or Abilene--I don't remember which one. It was west Texas anyway. And he was living there at the time.

Mr. JENNER. And her leaving your home then--there was no cause or reason for it other than that, as you now understand or from your memory of it, that Mrs. Hall had been involved in an automobile accident, was partially bedridden, was having some difficulty in any respect; she was then by herself because her husband was in west Texas and at that time they were, as you understood, separated?

Mr. TAYLOR. Or divorced. I don't remember which.

Mr. JENNER. And Marina went to Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth to help care for Mrs. Hall?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that would take us to about the last week in November--somewhere in that area--I mean September--is that correct?

Mr. TAYLOR. September; I should think; yes. Toward the end of September, and possibly even early in October--again, due to time, this is all quite vague--I had Lee with me. I don't remember where I got him. But Lee and my wife, Alex, and I went to Fort Worth and picked up Marina and their child and all of the Oswald's belongings that had, through this period, been stored at Mrs. Hall's, and brought them to Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you went to Mrs. Hall's--is that where you went?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you reached the Halls' you picked up the Oswalds' house paraphernalia, clothing and other things----

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or whatever had been stored at the Halls' you picked up?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your recollection doesn't serve you at the moment to be more specific as to how this came about?

Mr. TAYLOR. It doesn't. Not at all. I can't even remember now where I got Lee that day. I wish I could--for several reasons you are probably aware of. But I don't remember.

And, at any rate, we went to Fort Worth----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.

Do you recall being interviewed by two agents of the FBI on the 29th of January 1964.

Mr. TAYLOR. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection did you tell those agents at that time that you picked up Lee Oswald at the curb of the YMCA in Dallas and drove to Fort Worth to the Hall residence where Marina was living?

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, it is refreshing to my memory, but I would like to say this about it.

That in the course of several interviews by the FBI, the Secret Service, and the Dallas Police Department which have occurred, and between these and since the last one, I have naturally tried to remember all that I can concerning the areas in which I was vague in my memory. And at my last interview concerning this one particular item, it occurred to me that at one time--once--I went to--uh--and looked for a place where Lee was staying in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas and tried to locate him. I remember going and trying to locate him. I don't remember whether I found him or whether I did not. I know that--uh----

Mr. JENNER. Can you pinpoint this as to time?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; that's the trouble. I can't pinpoint it as to time. I just remember some vague directions that----

Mr. JENNER. What about year--1962?

Mr. TAYLOR. 1962 definitely.

Mr. JENNER. And it had to be some time after----

Mr. TAYLOR. It had to be some time between September and November 15, because my wife and I separated after that. Anyway, at some point during this period, I do remember going to an area in Oak Cliff and looking for Lee. I don't think I found him--at least, not on the occasion I remember. All I had was some vague directions that----

Mr. JENNER. From whom?

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, directly from my wife but indirectly I believe that came to her from Mrs. De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. Were you requested to seek to locate him?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't know why I was trying to locate him. I don't remember anything except I remember driving around one area one evening looking for a residence of his on some vague directions. As I say, I don't even remember if it was a residence of the whole family or just of Lee.

I went back to this area within the last few weeks and located a building that stuck--or I had a recollection of one building in this area and I went back to the area and found it and gave that information to Agent Yelchek of the FBI. I don't know what he----

Mr. JENNER. What location was that?

Mr. TAYLOR. I gave him the exact street address--but it seems to me like it was--well, the name of the apartment building was the Coz-I-Eight [spelling] C-o-z--I--E-i-g-h-t--apartments, and I think they were located at 1404 North Beckley. But the address I could be off on; but the name I do remember.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of a building was this?

Mr. TAYLOR. An apartment building.

Mr. JENNER. Brick?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. A more substantial-type thing than you had seen the Oswalds occupy prior thereto?

Mr. TAYLOR. Repeat, please.

Mr. JENNER. Was this a building of a substantiality higher caliber than the Elsbeth Street home, for example?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I would say it was in the same class.

Mr. JENNER. Did the occasion arise in which Lee Oswald called you to ask you to assist in moving him and Marina to an apartment in Dallas?

Mr. TAYLOR. I'm not sure how definitely that was--I'm not definitely sure how that was instigated. I'm not sure. It was either Lee directly or Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that asked for this assistance in moving. Whichever it was, my wife and I got together with Lee, I believe, on a Sunday afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pick him up or did he come to your home?

Mr. TAYLOR. I cannot remember.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have anything with him in the way of luggage?

Mr. TAYLOR. I believe he did.

Mr. JENNER. Describe it, please.

Mr. TAYLOR. I believe he had a paper bag of clothing, a rather large one, and an old leather suitcase. And that he had these two containers of personal belongings, and we went to Fort Worth and added Marina's to this--Marina's belongings and the household furnishings, whatever they were, and brought it all to the Elsbeth Street apartment.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did you pile all of this clothing and household furniture, to the extent they had any, in the rear of your automobile, and haul it back to Dallas? Or how did you do this?

Mr. TAYLOR. I rented a trailer in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Now, where did you rent that trailer? Where was the place located from which you rented the trailer?

Mr. TAYLOR. I do not remember. I have even been to this place recently again with Mr. Yelchek of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And we went over one evening and pinpointed the location of that service station where I had rented a small covered trailer and----

Mr. JENNER. A small covered trailer?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was covered.

Mr. JENNER. And give me the location of the place you pinpointed with Mr. Yelchek.

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember an address on the service station. It is a mile or so north of Texas Christian University in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Does University Drive sort of refresh your recollection?

Mr. TAYLOR. It--uh--could be University; yeah. However, it was not University Drive. It was another street which I just can't remember. This service station was west of the South Freeway, as I say, about a mile north of Texas Christian University.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mr. TAYLOR. I did originally think that it was on University but, upon investigation of the--visual investigation, actually being there one evening, why we did locate it and it was in another place.

Mr. JENNER. The place that you located when Mr. Yelchek accompanied you was different from the one that you had remembered when you first talked to the FBI?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; however, it, in my mind, is a positive identification. There is no question about it.

Mr. JENNER. Your more recent one is?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; when Mr. Yelchek and I went. I was able to positively identify the location. I might add, after having talked to him since then, that the owner says that--or there is no record of the rental at this location. There seems to be a set of duplicate books involved--one for themselves and one for the National Trailer Co., whichever one it was. A little fraud, or something, involved in that. We didn't get too involved in it--just to know that there wasn't any record.

Mr. JENNER. Is the name J. H. Pendley familiar to you?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have your driver's license with you?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you look at it and tell me what the number of it is?

Mr. TAYLOR. 1606670. And that's my memory that's talking.

(Witness then takes the driver's license from billfold and hands to Mr. Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER. 1606670.

(Hands license back to witness.)

Did the people from whom you rented the trailer take your driver's license number on that occasion?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember. It's common--in fact, it's normal procedure to take the license number--driver's license and vehicle license.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you had that number?

Mr. TAYLOR. It's permanent in the State of Texas.

Mr. JENNER. So you had it on this occasion--the same number?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What's the practice in Texas in respect to license numbers? Do you get a new one every year, or do you get a sticker--or what?

Mr. TAYLOR. Vehicle?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. TAYLOR. They change from year to year.

Mr. JENNER. They change the number?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; they do.

Mr. JENNER. Do you, by any chance, remember your license number in 1962?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall having a license number with the digit letters "E" and "Y"?

Mr. TAYLOR. I would never have a license tag with that number.

Mr. JENNER. With those prefix letters?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; as long as I lived in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Why is that, sir?

Mr. TAYLOR. The "E" prefix--the prefixes beginning with "E" are for Tarrant County, of which Fort Worth is a part.

Mr. JENNER. And you being in Dallas County, your initials are what--your prefixes?

Mr. TAYLOR. In Dallas County they would be some of the "M" prefix, all of the "N" and "P".

Mr. JENNER. "N" as in "Nancy," "P" as in "Paul"?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and some of the "M" as in "Mary."

Mr. JENNER. But it would be a combination of two or more of those three letters?

Mr. TAYLOR. It would be a combination of two letters beginning with the three that we have just been discussing.

Mr. JENNER. From one of the three we have just discussed?

Mr. TAYLOR. Beginning with either an M, an N, or a P. All of the N's and P's--like NA or NS or PA or PZ.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

You piled all this material in the covered trailer?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. This was on a Sunday, as I recall your saying?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When did you return that trailer?

Mr. TAYLOR. The same day.

Mr. JENNER. And you went from Mrs. Hall's to where with the loaded trailer?

Mr. TAYLOR. I took the loaded trailer to an apartment on Elsbeth Street in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. And then what happened when you got there?

Mr. TAYLOR. We unloaded it and I returned the trailer to the service station where I had rented it in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pay for the renting of that trailer?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember for sure.

Mr. JENNER. Well, somebody paid for it. It wasn't just given to you, was it?

Mr. TAYLOR. No. It wasn't given to me. I do not remember, however, who paid for it. I--it comes to mind that Lee probably did--but I can't say specifically that Lee did it.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee accompany you to the service station to rent the trailer in the first instance?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your recollection does not serve you now as to whether upon its return, he paid for it or you did?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; payment would be in advance.

Mr. JENNER. That would be an out-of-pocket payment. Would you say your recollection is, in view of your haziness about it, that you did not pay for it?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. You returned the trailer. Did you help put the household furniture and whatnot into their apartment?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you do that before you returned the trailer?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. After you returned the trailer, did you return to their apartment that same afternoon or evening?

Mr. TAYLOR. I can't be absolutely sure whether I returned that evening or not. I'm not sure whether they went back with us or not. I don't----

Mr. JENNER. Back with you where?

Mr. TAYLOR. Back to Fort Worth to return the trailer.

I don't know if they took that ride over there with us or not.

Mr. JENNER. That would be how much of a ride?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--round trip it would take probably 1 hour and 15 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. What is the distance from the Elsbeth Street address to Fort Worth--just approximately?

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, to the place in Fort Worth where the trailer was rented, I would say, it was about 30 miles. And, in case you're wondering about the time, it's all a turnpike and expressway trip.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Did you see the Oswalds, or either of them, after that time?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Next, and under what circumstances?

Mr. TAYLOR. Sometime after the move--I am not, again, can't be specific about dates--my memory isn't that good--I visited them by myself, and I believe that the purpose of that visit specifically was to return a manuscript, or at least it's been called that, certainly just a collection of notes Lee had that he had compiled on his visit to Fort Worth--I mean, on his visit to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. I show you in a volume which has a sticker on its front entitled "Affidavits and Statements Taken in Connection with the Assassination of the President," which has been supplied to me by the Dallas city police, and I direct your attention to pages 148 to 157. And I ask you whether those pages are familiar to you as being either all or a part of what you now describe as notes prepared by Lee Oswald on his trip or life in Russia?

Mr. TAYLOR. Can we go off the record and let me look at this a minute? It will be a minute, because I only looked at part of this thing.

(Witness peruses document page by page.)

Mr. JENNER. Have you examined those pages, which are a photostatic copy of what purports to be a draft by Lee Harvey Oswald of various stages of his life, including time in Russia, in the Marines, the period in New Orleans, and what not?

Mr. TAYLOR. Those are not the same pages of which I was speaking.

Mr. JENNER. I should advise you, Mr. Taylor, that they are incomplete. That is, we are advised that there are other sheets which we don't happen to have. I could ask you this: Was it on the type of paper which is indicated in these photostats--that is, lined 8 by 11-1/2 sheets?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. It was not?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Was it ringed notebook paper?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Lee Oswald's handwriting?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; I am not.

Mr. JENNER. Was this material you saw in his handwriting or was it typed?

Mr. TAYLOR. I would not know--this material? I'm sorry. I was thinking about----

Mr. JENNER. The material that you saw, was that in his handwriting?

Mr. TAYLOR. It was typed.

Mr. JENNER. It was typed?

Mr. TAYLOR. It was typed--on white paper.

Mr. JENNER. Plain white paper?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you because you had mentioned something he showed you. Now, would you please go on?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and the occasion for this visit that I was talking about was to return what has been discussed as a manuscript. And I had had this in my possession from the time Marina had been staying with us. I had asked him for it then and intended to read it. I did not ever read it fully. I read a page or two of it--of which my recollection is very dim. I remember almost nothing about it except that it seemed to be in a narrative style and was about his experiences in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to spelling, grammar, or content? Was it the writing of an educated man, or was it sophomoric in character, or do you have any impression about it?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't have any impression--having read so little of it such a long time ago.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you went to see him to return this manuscript?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where was he living?

Mr. TAYLOR. He was still living on Elsbeth.

Mr. JENNER. And you reached their apartment, did you?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was she home?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, she was.

Mr. JENNER. Did you visit with them on that occasion?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I did. I was treated as a very welcome guest. I assumed, at the time, that the reason for that was I was probably the only guest they had had--or at least certainly that guests were unusual, and that I was very welcome. As a matter of fact, almost immediately after I arrived, Marina left and walked some two and a half blocks to a doughnut shop and bought some doughnuts and returned.

And we just talked briefly that evening--not about anything in great detail. I stayed--I didn't go to stay a long time, just to return the manuscript, but due to the hospitality that was extended, I stayed perhaps an hour or 2 hours.

Mr. JENNER. How did they appear, in their relations one to the other, on this occasion?

Mr. TAYLOR. It appeared that--uh--they were getting along well. When I arrived, the baby was asleep and they were both in the kitchen. He was sitting at a table, I think, reading and----

Mr. JENNER. A book or a newspaper?

Mr. TAYLOR. Sir?

Mr. JENNER. Reading a book or a newspaper?

Mr. TAYLOR. A book, I believe. I think he checked out a number of books from the library.

Mr. JENNER. Did you understand him to be an avid reader?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever observe what character of books he was reading?

Mr. TAYLOR. As I remember, they were primarily political philosophy. I don't remember any titles specifically. I think he did have a copy of--uh--at one time, of something by Karl Marx. I don't remember the title or name of the book.

Mr. JENNER. "Das Kapital"?

Mr. TAYLOR. I'm aware of that title--but I just don't remember what he had a copy of.

Mr. JENNER. But they were political----

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Books on political philosophy, governmental structure, and philosophy?

Mr. TAYLOR. I would say primarily on philosophy.

Mr. JENNER. Philosophy or theories of government?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You had, I gather, a reasonably pleasant visit on this particular evening?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see them again after that?

Mr. TAYLOR. I did not see both of them again after that. Sometime much later----

Mr. JENNER. This is much later but prior to November 15, 1962?

Mr. TAYLOR. Prior to November of 1963? Is that what you meant?

Mr. JENNER. I had concluded you were speaking of prior to----

Mr. TAYLOR. No; I did make contact with them after my separation--if that's what you are alluding to. In the spring of 1963 I dropped by this Elsbeth apartment building and, finding no one at home, I asked someone who was sitting in the courtyard about them. And I think he was the manager. And he told me that they had moved and he told me where they had moved.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. TAYLOR. He told me that they had moved into a small apartment about a block away. And I went there.

Mr. JENNER. What street was that?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. What town?

Mr. TAYLOR. Dallas--about a block away from Elsbeth. And, anyway, I went to this--where I had been directed, and found Marina at home.

Mr. JENNER. Was Lee at home?

Mr. TAYLOR. No, he was not.

Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was this?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you go there?

Mr. TAYLOR. Just for a friendly visit.

Marina was at home. She--her English had improved enough for her to get across to me a few ideas. She said that Lee was not home, that--uh--I don't remember her saying where he was. She said that he was attending night school, Crozier Tech here in Dallas--which is our technical high school and----

Mr. JENNER. Was this occasion in the early evening?

Mr. TAYLOR. I think it was in midafternoon.

Mr. JENNER. Midafternoon?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Are you certain about that?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh--because this apartment in question had a small balcony on the front of it and I remember the door was open and I thought what a nice place for the baby to play and some of the baby's toys--a ball and something or other--were out there on this porch, and I thought how much nicer this was than the apartment they had had.

Mr. JENNER. Was that what led you to suggest that it was in the afternoon rather than the early evening? It doesn't get dark here in Texas--and this was what? The spring, did you say?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. 1963?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. No; you are trying to say that it may have been early evening, although it was still quite light. My memory tells me that it was midafternoon.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Was anything said about the fact he was working?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember her saying what he was doing or if he was working at all.

Mr. JENNER. I shouldn't have used the term "working"--whether he was employed?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I don't think at that time he was. Again, it's just a very, very vague recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Was she able to communicate with you, or you to understand, as to what studies he was pursuing at Crozier Tech?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't believe that I remember what he was studying at all at Crozier Tech.

I did inform Marina of my impending divorce and--uh--in other words, telling her that Mrs. Taylor and I were no longer living together and we had separated. Uh--and she said that she had been ill, I believe. And--uh--she invited me to come back in the evening and I left. And I would say the whole interview with her took certainly no longer than 10 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. And this, as you recall, was in 1963?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said that his attendance at Crozier Tech was in the night school?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was in the night school.

Mr. JENNER. But your visit was in the midafternoon?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate to you that he was then at Crozier Tech or that he would be at Crozier Tech that evening?

Mr. TAYLOR. She, I don't believe, indicated either thing to me. I don't--I can't honestly say that she indicated where Lee was at the time. She may have said he was at work or not at work.

Mr. JENNER. You just don't have enough recollection to know whether she said he was employed and working and had work at that time?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--the general impression is that he was not working, but it is not distinct enough to make a flat statement upon.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you ever saw Marina?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When was the last time you ever saw Lee?

Mr. TAYLOR. The previous occasion I have mentioned where I went to visit them in the evening to return the manuscript. That was the last time I saw Lee.

Mr. JENNER. That was prior to November 15, 1962?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I don't know why he wanted that manuscript at that time. I know that he wanted it very badly.

Mr. JENNER. He called you for it?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--yes, he did. On two occasions. And, on the second one, I think I got in the car and took it to him.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. He called you on the telephone?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, before I go to the De Mohrenschildts, I'd like you now to give me--now that we've had this discussion between us--your impressions of the Oswalds individually.

(Off-the-record discussion followed.)

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--my impression, first, of Lee would be that--uh--he was, first, rather confused, particularly, politically. He wanted to be well-informed and an idealist. He considered himself well-informed. I don't think he was even very knowledgeable on the subject.

In our conversations, when I would take exception to something he had said and argue a point with him, why, superficially, he could make a statement or support an idea that is commonly regarded in some areas as being true--such as, well, the Republican and Democratic Parties have different ideas on how things should be done just as democracy and communism have.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. TAYLOR. And he could present Communist ideas to a point that it was very superficial--and when you started digging down in to the meat of the subject, why, Lee was through.

He seemed to have perhaps read quite a bit of political philosophy, but when it came to really understanding it, he couldn't present a very good case for it.

Mr. JENNER. Was he emotional in that respect?

Mr. TAYLOR. He would--uh--not any more so than anyone else you would get into a political discussion with. This seems to be a fairly emotional subject on everyone's part.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't regard him as a vicious type--as a man who would think in terms of inflicting bodily harm if frustrated?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, I thought of him as a man who--uh--would kick a dog or beat his wife, but--uh--I was never afraid of him because I never felt like that he would attack anything his equal.

Mr. JENNER. You were a bigger man than he, weren't you?

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, even a person--even a grown human being, any male, I wouldn't ever have expected this of him.

Mr. JENNER. Regardless of size?

Mr. TAYLOR. Regardless of size.

Anything that could present a forceful retaliation, why, I would not have expected him to----

Mr. JENNER. Was he mild-mannered, or----

Mr. TAYLOR. He tended to be, in temperament, a little hot; but there was a very definite limit to it--even suggesting some inner cowardness.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have occasion to observe Marina when she had any black and blue marks on her person?

Mr. TAYLOR. [Pausing before reply.] No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention the Kennedys or the Connallys?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention the administration of either of them or their policies?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--no; I'm not even sure that Connally was in office at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Well, he was Secretary of the Navy.

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. I was thinking of him as Governor.

I never heard Lee take exception to Government officials; take exception to Government policies--definitely----

Mr. JENNER. We all do this sometimes but never to the human being that might formulate them. Just to the policy itself. Did he ever mention Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein in your presence?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a drinking man?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Give me as best you can now recall--did you ever loan him any money or give him any money?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. But you did things for him. You made expenditures in their behalf?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pay for any of the dental care administered to Marina?

Mr. TAYLOR. No. To my knowledge, that expense was borne by the county.

Mr. JENNER. At least, you never assumed any of it?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all of the occasions in which you either expended funds in their behalf or for them or accorded them help in your home, or otherwise were charitable to them?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that he was employed here in Dallas by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You ever pick him up there?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. What did you ever observe with respect to his cleanliness, his personal habits in that respect?

Mr. TAYLOR. That his clothes, generally, appeared to have been worn several days, and it was always in question as to when he had taken his last bath. He was not a clean person, either in clothing or personally.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any contrast in that respect between himself and Marina?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. She was fastidious, was she?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; very much so. And the same thing applied to her treatment of the child. It never had a damp diaper on if she knew about it. It just had to be damp--it didn't have to be wet.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him dressed up in the sense that you and I are dressed now--in a business coat?

Mr. TAYLOR. No. To my knowledge, he did not own any clothing that would be acceptable in what we would call business circles, say.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him with a tie on?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Give me your judgment as to the relationship between Lee Oswald and George De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--it's difficult to assess their relationship because there probably was more to it than I ever saw. But what little of it I saw, they were quite in opposition to each other--such as the lessons in English for Marina. But I certainly think that they must have been closer than they appeared or the De Mohrenschildts wouldn't have been so active in seeing that they got along well.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion as to whether George De Mohrenschildt exercised any influence over Oswald?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there seemed to be a great deal of influence there. It would be my guess that De Mohrenschildt encouraged him to move to Dallas, and he suggested a number of things to Lee--such as where to look for jobs. And it seems like whatever his suggestions were, Lee grabbed them and took them--whether it was what time to go to bed or where to stay or to let Marina stay with us while he stayed at the YMCA.

Mr. JENNER. And he tended to follow De Mohrenschildt's suggestions?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I want to finish with the Oswalds before I get to the De Mohrenschildts.

(Looking through papers.)

Tell me, chronologically, about the De Mohrenschildts and your relationships with them and who these various De Mohrenschildts are?

Mr. TAYLOR. In other words, I will go back time-wise and bring you up.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. TAYLOR. He was born in Russia, I believe in Georgia. This is, of course, all what I had been told for a while here. He was born in Russia and I believe he went to the----

Mr. JENNER. Now, this is what you were told and heard while you were----

Mr. TAYLOR. Married to his daughter.

Mr. JENNER. His daughter. And this comes by way of conversations over a long period of time?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. TAYLOR. He was born in Russia and, I believe, to a titled family. He claimed for himself the title of Baron. Original name was von Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] v-o-n?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. And that he came to this country--when, I'm not sure, but certainly prior to 1939 when he was associated with the University of Texas in the capacity of instructor or professor in their Geology Department. And he married my former wife's mother in New York City.

Mr. JENNER. Repeat the names, please.

Mr. TAYLOR. He married my former wife, Alex's, mother--the present Mrs. Brandel--in New York City.

Mr. JENNER. And was it your information that that was his first wife?

Mr. TAYLOR. To my knowledge, that was his first wife.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. TAYLOR. They married approximately 3 months before she was born.

Mr. JENNER. Before your wife was born?

Mr. TAYLOR. Before my wife was born, and that their divorce came rather quickly after she was born.

And, from that time until he married the wife, Dee or Dee Dee, my knowledge of him is rather sketchy. I know that, at least, part of the time they were married he resided in Dallas, was evidently well-established in business here, and owned a home--which, I believe, he had built to his own plans--and was generally well-accepted here in the business community.

And then he gets a little vague--at least to my knowledge--after that until 1958 or 1959 when I first met him--1958, I'm sure.

Mr. JENNER. Was he then married?

Mr. TAYLOR. He was then not married, to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. TAYLOR. He was living with the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt but they were not married; also living with them was her daughter, Christiana or Chris or Jeanne, Jr.--whatever the particular alias she felt like at the moment. And I met them through her.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "her," which----

Mr. TAYLOR. Through Christiana, Jeanne's daughter.

Mr. JENNER. Whom you subsequently married?

Mr. TAYLOR. No. This would be the half-sister. I guess it is a half-sister of my wife's.

Mr. JENNER. All right. We should say, at this point, your former wife?

Mr. TAYLOR. My former wife. This sure is involved.

Mr. JENNER. You are doing all right. Go ahead.

Mr. TAYLOR. And I met Christiana through a mutual girl friend and we dated over a period of a few weeks and then she left Dallas and started attending U.C.L.A. as a student, and I don't believe I saw her any more until--uh--May or June of 1959.

Mr. JENNER. Was the mutual friend through whom you became acquainted a Nancy Tilton?

Mr. TAYLOR. No, no; the mutual friend was a girl named Judy Mandel, of Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Is the name Nancy Tilton familiar to you?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Who is she?

Mr. TAYLOR. She is a cousin of my wife at that time.

Mr. JENNER. And your wife's name was Alexandra?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

At any rate, I met--uh--at this time, I asked Chris out on a date and she said that she had her little sister--I think is the way she termed it at that time--visiting her, and could I find someone for her to go out with at the same time. And I did that, and I think we went out--couples of four, or two couples--on two occasions. And then I started dating the younger of the girls, which was Alex. And, during this time, why, I was in or around their home for a whole summer--in fact, until the time we married, and quite intimate with the whole family. Does that bring it chronologically up to date--or would you like the otherwise?

Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't know what the "otherwise" is.

Mr. TAYLOR. I skipped Mrs. Brandel in this, I think. They were married, as I mentioned, in New York City approximately 3 months before my former wife was born and divorced shortly thereafter. And he stayed away--or stayed in the background of Alex's life until 1958 when he and Mrs. Brandel, his former wife and Alex's mother went into court and sued the previously mentioned Mrs. Tilton for her custody.

When Alex was born, Mrs. Tilton paid by check, which I saw, Mrs. Brandel $5,000 for custody of the daughter, Alex; and they had to go into court and get this custody set aside--at which time the daughter went to Paris and lived with Mrs. Brandel, where she lived at that time.

Mr. JENNER. The daughter--this is Christiana?

Mr. TAYLOR. We're talking still about my former wife, Alex.

Mr. JENNER. Your former wife lived in Paris?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; my former wife, after the custody suit, was taken to Paris by her mother where she lived until the spring of 1959, when I met her.

Mr. JENNER. Now, while she was in Paris, were you dating Christiana?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; however, I was not even aware of Alex's existence until I met her that evening, as previously described.

Mr. JENNER. Have you information as to where Jeanne was born?

Mr. TAYLOR. In China.

Mr. JENNER. That's the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

My knowledge of her is that--uh--it's rather sketchy, because that's all my former wife knew of her.

She was born in China. I believe her parentage, at least on one side, was Russian. She claimed that, at any rate. And she traveled through her late teens and early twenties--I don't know exactly how long--with her former husband, Mr. Bogovallenskia, as ballet performers.

Mr. JENNER. I see. I have a spelling of that name, Mr. Taylor, which is B-o-g-o-v-a-l-l-e-n-s-k-i-a [spelling].

Mr. TAYLOR. That may be more correct. This is phonetic here that I have [referring to paper].

Mr. JENNER. Is that a maiden name or a married name?

Mr. TAYLOR. That is her married name--Jeanne's married name to----

Mr. JENNER. Is Jeanne the same as Christiana?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; Jeanne is the mother. Christiana is the daughter.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. TAYLOR. That is the name of Christiana's father and the man I was just saying that Jeanne traveled with as ballet performers in China.

All of the press clippings I saw, I think, were prior to World War II. And, as far as Mr. Bogo--as far as Chris' father is concerned, he was in Dallas during 1959 or 1960 and--uh--he had severe mental problems and Chris returned with him to California where, the last I heard, he was resident of a State mental hospital.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

And Chris is now married to a gentleman whose given name is Ragnar [spelling] R-a-g-n-a-r, but you don't recall his surname?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I do not. My memory is rather vague, but it seems to me like, in connection with his name, that his father is either a vice president or is the executive vice president of Hughes Aircraft.

I don't know anything about him other than that except I was told he is a physicist, as Chris' father is, and he is a rather unusual character to meet and to know--being somewhat of a beatnik. But, at least, he seems to, when he works, be able to make an awful lot of money and he must have money because they--Ragnar and Chris--honeymooned on a yacht that he owned, and to my knowledge, since he has not worked--which is a period of 2 years.

Mr. JENNER. Does George De Mohrenschildt have a brother?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What's his name?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he uses George De Mohrenschildt's original name of Von Mohrenschildt. He is a professor at an ivy league university--Cambridge, I think.

Mr. JENNER. Well, Cambridge would be Harvard. What about Princeton? What about Dartmouth? Columbia? Brown? Cornell?

Mr. TAYLOR. At the moment, I don't remember. I should remember.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet him?

Mr. TAYLOR. I never met him. I believe I talked to him on the telephone. He passed through Dallas and called. I just talked to him briefly on the telephone.

Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your impression of De Mohrenschildt. First, describe him. What kind of personality is he?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he is a rather overbearing personality; somewhat boisterous in nature and easily changeable moods--anywhere from extreme friendliness to downright dislike--just like turning on and off a light.

Mr. JENNER. What about his physical characteristics? Large, small, handsome, or otherwise?

Mr. TAYLOR. He's a large man, in height he's only about 6'2" but he's a very powerfully built man, like a boxer.

Mr. JENNER. Athletic?

Mr. TAYLOR. He is athletic. And he has a very big chest, which makes him appear to be very much bigger than he actually is.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Taylor, do you know Mr. Liebeler? Mr. Liebeler is a member of the staff.

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't believe I do. My letter told me that he would contact me.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Give me a little more about the personality of George De Mohrenschildt's--and I think I'm about ready to let you go home.

Mr. TAYLOR. I would say that he has an inflammable personality. And he's very likable, when he wants to be, and he oftentimes uses this to get something he wants, put a person in a good mood and then, by doing this, he tries to then drag whatever it is that he wants out of them.

Mr. JENNER. Is he unconventional?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I would say that they lead a somewhat Bohemian life. The furnishings in their home somewhat show this.

Mr. JENNER. Is he unconventional in dress?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; oftentimes wearing merely bathing trunks, and things like this, that--for a man of his age, which is about 50 to 52--is a little unusual.

Mr. JENNER. You mean out on the street?

Mr. TAYLOR. On the street, as a constant apparel.

He does not often work. In fact, during the times that I was married to his daughter, I have not known of him to hold any kind of a position for which he received monetary remuneration. So, as a result, why, he could spend his time at his favorite sport, which is tennis. And this could be in 32° weather in the bathing shorts I mentioned--only.

Mr. JENNER. On any time during the week?

Mr. TAYLOR. Any time during the week. They have always owned convertibles and they would ride in them in all kinds of weather with the top down. They are very active, outdoor sort of people.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "they," you mean he and his present wife?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Is she unconventional at times in her attire in the respects you have indicated in regards to him?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; very similar.

Mr. JENNER. She, likewise, wears a bathing suit out on the street, does she?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; quite a bit. And usually a Bikini.

Mr. JENNER. What about his political philosophy?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, that's--uh--I have heard them say everything--from saying that he was a Republican and she expressed democratic ideals, and they expressed desires to return to Russia and live--so, it's all colors of the spectrum. Anything that--again, so much of what they do is what fits the moment. Whatever fits their designs or desires at the moment is the way they do it.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. When did you marry your present wife?

Mr. TAYLOR. In--let's see--on November 21, 1959.

Mr. JENNER. Your present wife?

Mr. TAYLOR. Oh, I'm sorry. That was Mr. De Mohrenschildt's daughter that I married on that date. We married on September 28, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had any correspondence from either of the De Mohrenschildts in which there have been any allusions to the assassination of President Kennedy or to either of the Oswalds?

Mr. TAYLOR. I have not personally received any correspondence at all from them. My parents have received correspondence from them--none of which mentioned--I take that back--in one case, the assassination was mentioned in passing; and the Oswalds were not mentioned in specifics.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, your parents are acquainted with the De Mohrenschildts?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And does that acquaintance go back prior to your acquaintance with the De Mohrenschildts?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; that acquaintance was after Alex and I got married.

Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. Now, we have had some discussions off the record. I will ask you first--is there anything you would like to add that occurs to you that you think might be helpful--as an occurrence having taken place or even general thoughts on your part--to the Commission in this important investigation it has undertaken?

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, the only thing that occurred to me was that--uh--and I guess it was from the beginning--that if there was any assistance or plotters in the assassination that it was, in my opinion, most probably the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. JENNER. On what do you base that?

Mr. TAYLOR. I base that on--uh--their desire, first of all, to--uh--return to Russia at one time and live there; uh--they have traveled together behind the Iron Curtain; uh--they took a trip to Mexico, through Mexico, on the avowed purpose of walking from Laredo, Tex., to the tip of South America----

Mr. JENNER. Panama?

Mr. TAYLOR. And----

Mr. JENNER. On beyond that?

Mr. TAYLOR. Beyond--to the tip of South America--the southern tip of South America.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--and this they claim to have done, yet further information indicated to me that their trip extended only to the portion of South America where the Cuban refugees were being trained to invade Cuba and that this trip coincided and that they were in the area while all this training was going on. And, so, from that--from these observations----

Mr. JENNER. Do you conclude that they were attempting to spy on that invasion preparation?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; because where--they went to Guatemala where the invasion troops were being trained, or they were in Guatemala when they were supposed to be on a walking trip, and had taken up residence in the unoccupied home of some acquaintances there and--unbeknowing to anyone--and when these acquaintances returned----

Mr. JENNER. This was the trip during the time you were married to their daughter?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are basing this information on communications from them, conversations with your wife, conversations that occurred after they returned?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and to clarify it on the last point here, about them being in Guatemala, in conversations with Nancy Tilton.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I asked you about her. Who is Nancy Tilton?

Mr. TAYLOR. Nancy Tilton is the cousin who brought up my former wife, Alex, after she was born. Her mother never took her from the hospital. This Mrs. Tilton did. And on a visit to Mrs. Tilton's home, the people----

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tilton reared her?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; to age 14. On a visit to Mrs. Tilton's home----

Mr. JENNER. Where is that?

Mr. TAYLOR. In Tubac, Ariz. Uh--Mrs. Tilton remarked that some friends of hers, the people in question in Guatemala, had found them living in their home----

Mr. JENNER. Had found the De Mohrenschildts there?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, living in their home in Guatemala and had forcefully evicted them from it.

Mr. JENNER. That the Tiltons had forcefully evicted the De Mohrenschildts from the Tilton home in Guatemala?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; it isn't the Tiltons' home in Guatemala. It was a friend of the Tiltons. I don't remember their names.

Mr. JENNER. Well, who was evicted? The De Mohrenschildts or the people who owned the house?

Mr. TAYLOR. The De Mohrenschildts were evicted when the people who owned it returned.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, you gather from that that they had not had advance permission to occupy that home?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. They had not had advance permission and had occupied it for a period of about 3 weeks--as best the people who evicted them could determine from what was eaten and----

Mr. JENNER. In other words, they were trespassing?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

(Off the record discussion follows.)

Mr. JENNER. You are basing your comment with respect to the De Mohrenschildts' possible involvement, if there was any involvement by anyone else with Oswald which you have already stated and you are stating the reasons why. And you have related the walking trip down through Mexico to the tip of South America. This was at the time of the training of Cuban refugees for a possible invasion of Cuba. And it was during the period of time in which you were married to the De Mohrenschildts' daughter?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And now you have made a remark that we didn't quite get. What was that?

Mr. TAYLOR. Are you speaking of what I said off the record?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. TAYLOR. I summed it up by saying that--uh--there was an indication here that they had been in an area where some spying or information-gathering might be valuable to Communist interests. They had expressed a desire to live in a Communist country; and that they had traveled extensively through Communist countries.

Mr. JENNER. What countries?

Mr. TAYLOR. Poland and Hungary--no; I'm sorry. Poland and Czechoslovakia. And Mr. De Mohrenschildt told me one time that he had met Marshal Tito.

Mr. JENNER. In Yugoslavia?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.