Chapter XXVII: Part 27

Mr. JENNER. Those are your next door neighbors?

Mrs. PAINE. Those are my next door neighbors, and also Randle, which refers to Mrs. William Randle. And the one below has been covered in testimony--that is Frolick and Pen Rainey.

Mr. JENNER. Frolick, I should say to you, Mrs. Paine, is spelled F-r-o-e-l-i-c-h, although you do not have it so entered. The next page is the page opposite the page, the top letter of which is S.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which, for some strange reason is also S. It is the opposite----

Mrs. PAINE. The last one you had was facing.

Mr. JENNER. And this is the reverse side of the S page. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. No significance in relation to the Oswalds. It does list the name of the school at which I taught Russian, Saint Mark's School.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, would you identify the Strattons?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are very good friends of mine who I have known from work with the Young Friends Committee of North America. He was chairman of the East-West Contacts Committee while I was chairman of the subcommittee on pen pal correspondence.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing else on the S page?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a page on which the top letter appears to be T.

Mrs. PAINE. No significance here.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a page, the right-hand one of which has the top letter U, and then there are entries not on that page but on the page to the left of that.

Mrs. PAINE. No significance.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a page on which the top letter appears also as U.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; no significance here.

Mr. JENNER. But the first name on which refers to Dick Uviller.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which appears to be V.

Mrs. PAINE. No significance here.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which appears to be W.

Mrs. PAINE. No significance here.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which is Y.

Mrs. PAINE. No significance in relation to the Oswalds, except as testified. I did talk to Mrs. Young.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Those are entries dealing with your in-laws, the Youngs?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And there are three entries.

Mrs. PAINE. No. The first one has no relation whatsoever to my relatives.

Mr. JENNER. That is a different Young entirely?

Mrs. PAINE. That is.

Mr. JENNER. But the next two, Arthur M. Young, and Charles Morris--those are your in-laws?

Mrs. PAINE. And Arthur Young's father, Charles Morris Young.

Mr. JENNER. Charles Morris Young is Arthur M. Young's father?

Mrs. PAINE. Father.

Mr. JENNER. And Arthur M. Young is the stepfather of your husband, Michael Ralph Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And Charles Morris Young is the stepgrandfather of your husband, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Mrs. Paine, would you please give us your reactions to and your concept of Marina Oswald as a person, your reflections on her personality generally, and her character and integrity, her philosophy? What kind of a person was she?

Mrs. PAINE. I enjoyed knowing her. She was a great deal of company to me in my home. She liked to help me with the language problems I had. She was very good at explaining a word I didn't understand in other Russian words that would then make clear to me the meaning of the word I didn't understand.

She is, as I have already testified, a hard worker. She liked to help around the house. She had some doubts about her ability in cooking, unfounded doubts, I felt. She wanted to learn from me about cooking. I did most of the meal preparation. But she would occasionally prepare meals, and she taught me some things. I think she is a mixture, as are many people, of confidence and lack of confidence.

She knows, I am certain, that she is an intelligent and able person. But, on the other hand, as I have testified, she was hesitant to learn to pronounce--to practice pronouncing English words and didn't consider that she had much ability in English. She did say to me in the fall--I think it was after Mr. Hosty's visit that she observed of herself that unlike the time when she had first come to this country and did not even attempt to listen to English conversation, she had picked up enough so that it was worth her while to try to listen, and then she could pick up some words and some meaning. I may have already testified to this.

I think she is a person who prized her personal privacy. She did--I should say we confided to one another about our respective marriages, as I have already testified. There was some intimacy of confidence, of this kind of confidence, I should say. But I felt that she prized and guarded her own personal privacy.

She was in some ways--she talked with some enthusiasm and detail to me about her time in Minsk, when she was dating and the good times that she had had there, living at that time with her aunt and uncle in Minsk--how she enjoyed herself, and something of the social life she enjoyed.

She spoke of spending time with hairdos and clothes, what to wear, and when she looked back on it, girlish pastimes that she had no time for now as a young mother.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you--you brought something out about Russia--about any hopes or desires or thoughts about America while she was in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. She did say once that she had dreamed of coming to America. I think she meant dreamed while sleeping.

Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?

Mrs. PAINE. I think she meant dreamed while sleeping.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate anything beyond that--that is, that she had a dream--did she indicate any hope or desire or affinity, willingness to come to America?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that this was also a hope on her part.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate this was a hope prior to the time she had married Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. It wasn't clear to me when this hope arose.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate it was a hope or desire on her part wholly divorced from Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you were telling me about your impressions of Marina's personality, her character, her integrity.

Mrs. PAINE. We spoke once, to my recollection, about our respective beliefs in God. She told me that she observed, looking at the nations of the world, and their religious books, like the Bible, the Koran, that people all over the world for centuries believed in God, had this faith, and she felt that such an idea could not arise so many places as it were spontaneously and live on so many places unless there were something to it.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the philosophy in Russia toward religion as negative or positive?

Mrs. PAINE. This was implied. I can't give you a specific reference, except that she did say her grandmother was a very religious person.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, did she have her children baptized in this country?

Mrs. PAINE. One of the first things I knew--and this was told to me in March of 1963--one of the first times I went to see her at their apartment, on Neely Street, she showed me a baptismal certificate for June, and was pleased with how nice it looked, its attractive form. I have since read in the paper that she had this baptismal ceremony without Lee's knowledge and consent. She made no reference to me at that time of that sort, and nothing to indicate that I shouldn't tell anyone I pleased, Lee included, that there was such a baptismal certificate, or refer to it freely.

Mr. JENNER. In her discussions of her life in Russia, did there arise occasions when she discussed communism or the Communist Party or people who were interested in communism or the Communist Party in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. She referred rather disparagingly to some of the young Communist youth group people. She felt they were rather dull and attended meetings and heard the same thing over and over, said much the same thing. She also spoke disparagingly of the content of this paper which I said she told me was from Minsk, and always containing many columns of speech by Khrushchev, speech by Khrushchev, speech by comrade chairman of the presidium, whatever Khrushchev was. And she found this very dull. Very repetitious. She, herself, expressed interest in the movies and theater activities in the town. She always turned to this portion----

Mr. JENNER. Legitimate theater?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She turned to this portion----

Mr. JENNER. When you say town, you mean Minsk?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She turned to this portion of the newspaper and really expressed herself as only interested in that. In this connection, I can say she told me the plots of movies that she had seen some years before, and retold them in some detail, with considerable interest.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about having seen movies in Russia originating in America, in the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. Possibly. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate how she had acquired her interest in the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't.

Mr. JENNER. What was leading her to be favorably disposed to come and live in this country?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.

She spoke of having met some young Cuban students who were traveling in Russia, or studying in Minsk, or both--I am not certain. But she commented on how Latin their personality was, how warm and open, and how they would strum guitars in the street and go about in noisy crowds.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you or intimate at any time prior to November 22--let's say prior to November 23--of any desire, attempt or otherwise on the part of Lee Oswald to reach Cuba?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was--were the references to Cuba limited to those with regard to Castro on the FPCC incident in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. Lee is the only one who mentioned the FPCC incident, and then without the initials or name of that organization. And then, of course, this reference in Minsk was to students who had been there only.

Mr. JENNER. You have given me a number of specifics. But I don't think you have yet told me your opinion of Marina Oswald the person, insofar as her character, integrity, general philosophy--as a person and a woman.

Mrs. PAINE. I like her and care a lot about her. I feel that--as I have testified, any full communication between us was limited by my modest command of the language, and that we were also and are different sorts of people. I feel that I cannot predict how she might feel in a particular situation, whereas some of my friends I feel I can guess that they would feel as I would in a situation. I don't have that feeling about Marina. She is more of an enigma to me.

Mr. JENNER. But you say she is an appreciative person?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would. I could not convince her of how helpful it was to me to have her at my home in the fall of 1963. She was--thanked me too much, I felt. It was very helpful to me, to have her there, both because I was lonely, and because I was interested in the language. And I also reassured her many times that it was not costing me unduly financially--that this was not a burden. But I never felt I fully convinced her.

Mr. JENNER. Well, is there anything you would like to say off record or add to this record with respect to Marina Oswald as a person?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I have said the bulk of it.

Mr. JENNER. I will ask you this--your view or opinion as to whether Marina Oswald was or could have been an agent of the government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic.

Mrs. PAINE. My opinion is that she could not have been.

Mr. JENNER. She was not and could not have been?

Mrs. PAINE. Was not and could not have been.

Mr. JENNER. I wish to include both--that she was not and could not have been?

Mrs. PAINE. My impression was distinctly that she was not. I don't exclude the possibility that she could have been. I don't feel I have knowledge. It would seem to me highly unlikely. But that is different from being certain. I might add this. I think--things she said to me on the evening of the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. 22d of November 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. After we had returned from the police station.

Mr. JENNER. You had returned to your home after being at the police station?

Mrs. PAINE. We returned to the home, had dinner, had talked for a little while in the living room, seen and sent home two Life reporters, and then were preparing for bed. And she and I talked a little bit, standing in the kitchen. She said both of the following things in a spirit of confusion and with a stunned quality, I would say, to her voice and her manner. She said to me all the information she had or most of it that she had about the Kennedy family came to her through translation from Lee, and that she thought----

Mr. JENNER. What do you mean translation?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, in other words, if Lee read in the paper something about the Kennedys, or if there was something in Time Magazine about them, he would translate to Marina, that is, put into Russian what was said in this news media, and, therefore, inform her. And she thought that if he had had negative feelings about Kennedy, that this would have come along with the translation from Lee. But there was no such indication of dislike from Lee to her.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this impressed you why?

Mrs. PAINE. I just record that she said it.

Mr. JENNER. It has impressed you to the point at which you wish to relate it here. Why is that? You were relating it to what--to her groping as to why her husband committed this act?

Mrs. PAINE. Her wondering whether he could have, but not in a defensive way, but in this stunned way that I am trying to describe. And in the same way she told me that----

Mr. JENNER. That is, is it your concept that she was ruminating--how could he have said these things or called her attention to these things with respect to President Kennedy, and still have assassinated him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was it in the sense that she was hurt, she could not understand it--or was she trying to rationalize that her husband, because of this, could not have assassinated the President?

Mrs. PAINE. It was more in the sense being hurt and confused. Not concluding that he had assassinated the President. But not attempting to conclude from this small piece of information that he had not. She also said that just the night before, the evening of the 21st, Lee had said to her he wanted to get an apartment soon, just as soon as she could, together again. And this was said very much with a feeling of hurt.

Mr. JENNER. Hurt what?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have to interpret, because we didn't talk about it. But my interpretation was that here he was making this gesture of caring for her, and wanting to bring the family together, and live with her again on a full-time basis. But then on the other hand, how could he be suggesting this if he had been planning to do something which would inevitably lead to the break-up of the family. This, again, in the spirit of the other comment from her just related, of confusion and hurt, rather than defense.

Mr. JENNER. That is, rather than defense of him?

Mrs. PAINE. Of him; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of having written your sister in June of 1957--as a matter of fact, on June 29, 1957--[See Ruth Paine Exhibit 469, and transcript 390, post.] in which, to orient the letter, you stated, "Last Saturday I started Russian class," and that was your class at the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957--in which you recounted the reasons why you were undertaking the study of Russian. Do you recall such a letter?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the letter, but it certainly is likely I wrote it.

Mr. JENNER. In which you said, one, that you enjoyed the study of languages. Is it a fact that that was one of the motivations?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And, two, that the language would be socially useful to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Socially?

Mr. JENNER. Would be socially useful to you.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't understand what that meant.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I can't explain it. I assume it meant that you were recounting that you might use it in your social intercourse with others who also spoke Russian, in seeking--for example, concerning your pen pal activity and that sort of thing. This does not awaken anything?

Mrs. PAINE. It doesn't awaken any recollection; no.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Three, that it advanced your "interest in Russian exchange."

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I may have hoped so, starting Russian. But my actual skill didn't progress fast enough to be of any real use.

Mr. JENNER. And, also, that ever since, "The Young Friends Conference in 1955," you had felt a leaning to the study of language.

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. And I have so testified--I used the word "calling" in the testimony.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recall emphasizing in that letter that the study of Russian on your part was an intellectual decision, using those very words--intellectual decision?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall using those words. It is reasonable.

Mr. JENNER. As you recall back now, was that--did that activate you?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not entirely certain what I meant by intellectual decision.

Mr. JENNER. I assume you meant a deliberate one.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. One of intellectual curiosity?

Mrs. PAINE. I would judge so.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall writing your mother, as far back as October 1956, that--no; this letter was to your whole family--that is, those back in Columbus, addressed to your mother, your father, and--what was--Essie?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think probably family in this case just was my mother and father at that time. Essie is my brother's wife.

Mr. JENNER. In which you then said you were thinking about studying Russian as an intellectual pursuit? Does that sound like something you might have said then?

Mrs. PAINE. It sounds like I thought myself more intellectual at the time than I do now.

Mr. JENNER. But as you harken back on it, the elements I have now recounted to you from correspondence with your mother and your folks, are those factors which at least impelled you at that age and that development in your life to undertake the study of Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And these are all in addition to those reasons that you gave us yesterday, of course.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to know if you had any conversations with Marina on any of the following subjects. I have a long list, most of which you have already covered, and I will skip those. Have you now recounted to us all of the conversations you had with Marina respecting interviews by the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Any conversations--have you told us all on the subject of Lee Oswald's Texas School Book Depository job, his reactions to it, the nature of the work, his fellow employees?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak of his fellow employees at the Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. No; except Wesley, who drove him to work.

Mr. JENNER. You have told us all he has ever recounted to you on the subject of his military service?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. His political views?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe I have told you all.

Mr. JENNER. Any particular books in which he was interested?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know of any books.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. None that I saw him read.

Mr. JENNER. You have told us all you can recall about Oswald's treatment of Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And any conversations you had with him on the subject?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss or did she ever discuss the matter of his dishonorable discharge from the Marines?

Mrs. PAINE. That was never mentioned.

Mr. JENNER. By either she or him?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Not by either one.

Mr. JENNER. You were aware of some of that, were you? You were aware of the fact that he was first honorably discharged and then when he reached Russia and attempted to defect----

Mrs. PAINE. Only through reading the paper after the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. All I am seeking is, you were aware of the incident at the time that you met the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I was aware that he had gone to Russia, but not that he had received an unsatisfactory discharge, whatever the word is.

Mr. JENNER. When did you first learn of that?

Mrs. PAINE. From the newspaper after the assassination. Undesirable, the word is.

Mr. JENNER. Undesirable discharge. Did he ever speak of Governor Connally?

Mrs. PAINE. Never, to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Did she?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak or--well, did he ever speak in your presence of his dreams or aspirations?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Either for himself individually or for his family?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything about her dreams and aspirations for herself and her family that you can now recall?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe I have said that she related to me that she would like some day to have her own home and her own furniture.

Mr. JENNER. I think you told us that this morning.

Mrs. PAINE. It appears in the Look article, but I don't think I mentioned it.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; speaking of articles, at any time during the meeting you had with her on March 9, was anything said about magazine articles--let us say--did you discuss the Life article with her?

Mrs. PAINE. We discussed the recent Time cover issue, on which Marina appeared.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, I see. What was said on that score?

Mrs. PAINE. She thought it was misleading.

Mr. JENNER. That the article itself was misleading?

Mrs. PAINE. Further, she thought it was unkind to her.

Mr. JENNER. Unkind in the sense that it was inaccurately unkind or that some things were recounted she thought ought not to have been recounted?

Mrs. PAINE. Inaccurately unkind. And she said something to the effect of judging that the American people or at least portions of the press would have to look that way upon the wife of an accused assassin. With which I disagreed.

Mr. JENNER. Well, what did you say?

Mrs. PAINE. I said I thought that was Time Magazine in particular, and had nothing to do with the views of the populace in general, I said I thought that was better reflected by the letters that she had gotten from a great many thoughtful and concerned people who had written to her of their sympathy and support.

Mr. JENNER. Did she respond to that comment on your part?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any particular thing she said.

Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any feeling or reaction in your meeting on March 9 to the generosity of Americans who had made these contributions voluntarily?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did, particularly in response to a comment I made.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us that.

Mrs. PAINE. We had been talking about the lawyer and business manager whom she is trying to fire.

Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I said she has seen the range of kind of people in America--one side the many generous people who sent her thoughtful notes and small checks to help her in her financial difficulty, and on the other side the wolves who wanted to gain money from this situation for themselves. And she concurred in that.

Mr. JENNER. She was aware of that distinction?

Did she indicate an awareness of that?

Mrs. PAINE. She thought that was an apt description; yes. I felt that she thought that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, have you told us everything you can recall about Lee Oswald's ability to drive an automobile and operate an automobile, and your efforts to improve that driving capacity, and his efforts to obtain a driver's license? Is there anything at all now that you can recall that you have not told us?

Mrs. PAINE. There isn't anything at all.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation any time with respect to Lee Oswald himself returning to Russia, as distinguished from Marina being returned to Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no conversation of any sort nor any implication of that to me at any time.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time on the subject of his desiring to obtain or having obtained a passport to Russia in the summer of 1963 or any other time?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of this at any time in my presence.

Mr. JENNER. And were you aware at any time prior to November 23, 1963, that he had obtained or had applied for a passport?

Mrs. PAINE. No; and I wasn't aware until later, in fact.

Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything now on the subject of Lee Oswald's efforts with respect to Marina returning to Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. All that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything that you can recall respecting President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy and any comments or observations on the part of either Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald with respect to the Kennedys?

Mrs. PAINE. I have related all my recollections.

Mr. JENNER. Have you related all your recollections respecting the attitude of either of them toward the Government of the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything you now recall in addition to what you have testified to with respect to the connection of either of them with or contacts, rather than connection--of either of them with the Communist Party in the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. I was not aware of any contact by either of them with the Communist Party in the United States.

Mr. JENNER. And the same question with respect to the Socialist Workers Party.

Mrs. PAINE. Nor was I aware of any such contact.

Mr. JENNER. Would you now give us your impression of Lee Oswald's personality? Was he a person who sought friends, was he a man who sought his own comfort, his own consolation?

I am just trying to illustrate what I am getting at. Was he a man who, to use the vernacular, was a loner? Do you know what I mean by that?

Mrs. PAINE. I have heard the word used a great deal.

Mr. JENNER. A man who preferred his own company, or at least appears to prefer his own company, and does not seek out others, does not seek to make friends, or even has an aversion to the making of friends, that he is reticent, retiring.

Mrs. PAINE. I think it was here this morning that I described him as a person whom I thought was fearful of actually making friends, and, therefore, reticent, who did keep to himself in fact a good deal.

But I think he did enjoy talking with other people--at least some of the time. He did watch television a great deal of the total time that he was at my house.

And he would finish the evening meal earlier than the rest of the people at the table and leave to go back to the living room to read or watch television, and not just stay to converse. He would eat to be fed rather than as a social event.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Just to make sure we have the record clear on this--because it is of interest in other sections of this investigation--except for the one or two instances you have related, his habit was to remain in your home the entire weekend whenever he visited?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Were there any occasions in which he related or recounted, or she, of his having made any friendships in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. He never mentioned anyone he knew.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about what he did after hours, after work hours in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. Only the reference I have already related, of having been to the National Indignation Committee meeting.

Mr. JENNER. That was the only occasion? What was your impression of what he did, from all you heard and saw in your home when he was there, or any conversations you had with Marina, as to how he occupied his time after work hours, during the week when he remained in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. My impression, insofar as I have one, is that he spent evenings at his room, and he had mentioned, as I have said, that the room he had moved to had television privileges, and I, therefore, guessed that he made use of that opportunity.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression, or what impression did you have on this score--as to whether he was a man who had--who somewhat lacked confidence in himself, or might have been resentful that he was not generally accepted as a man of capacity?

Mrs. PAINE. I think he had a combination of a lack of confidence in himself and a mistaken, as I have said, overblown impression of himself, these operating at the same time.

I think he felt that he wanted more skilled work than he was doing at the School Book Depository. But the major impression I carry about his feeling of work at the School Book Depository was that it was income, and he was glad to have it.

I recall Marina's saying that Lee Oswald looked upon his brother Robert as a fool in that he was primarily interested in his home and family and that his interests in the world didn't really step beyond that. Marina commented then herself on this, and said she thought those were very legitimate interests.

Mr. JENNER. In his presence?

Mrs. PAINE. No; not in his presence. She was telling me what Lee had said when he was not there.

Mr. JENNER. What is your impression of Robert Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have testified, I have very little impression of him, having only met him twice. I might add to that that he seems a nice guy, as far as I can see--fairly regular, plain person. But that is my guess. I cannot say I have a clear impression of my own.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when Marina had a conversation with Mrs. Gravitis?

Mrs. PAINE. By telephone. Oh, no; we went over one time, I think.

Mr. JENNER. And there was a conversation that went back and forth about their life in the United States up to that point?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; some of that conversation went back and forth faster than I could follow it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, do you recall an incident in the course of that conversation in which Mrs. Gravitis made a remark that anyone could get work in that locality, and that there was plenty of construction work going on, to which Marina responded that construction work was beneath the dignity of her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I recall a conversation of this nature, or you have just recalled it to me, that Mrs. Gravitis thought that jobs were available if you were willing to do the work. I don't recall just what Marina's reply was. I do recall her saying that he found his work at the Minsk factory more physically heavy than he was easily able to handle, and the reference to--I don't recall her objection to the mention of construction, but if there was one I would guess it was more this nature, than indicating being above such things.

Mr. JENNER. That he might find heavy construction work or construction work generally physically difficult?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this from my recollection of what she said about the Minsk job, not from my recollection of this conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall during the course of that conversation some comments in which Marina implied that when they were in Fort Worth, at least, that, arising out of her experience there, that both of them rather did not want further contact with the people in Fort Worth because her husband Lee did not agree with them personality wise?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall her saying during the course of that conversation that her husband was an idealist?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that, either. I have been trying to recall whether the name of Peter Gregory came up in any conversation with Marina. I have earlier testified today that it was my impression that I had not heard his name until the 22d of November. I have a vague impression that he was mentioned, or that this name was known to me. But it is very hard for me to get a hold of.

Mr. JENNER. To recall, you mean?

Mrs. PAINE. To recall; yes. At some point, and it might have been that afternoon of the 22d, or it might have been earlier, there was a conversation which has left me with the clear impression that Marina admired and thought highly of Peter Gregory.

Mr. JENNER. Peter is the father or the son?

Mrs. PAINE. Peter is the father. But, as I say, my recollection is vague on this, and I don't know when that conversation might have taken place.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say to your sister that you were of the opinion that Lee Oswald was a Communist?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Does the group known as the Women's International League for Peace and Democracy--is that a group with which you are familiar?

Mrs. PAINE. I have heard the name. I can't recall whether I have ever joined or not. I wouldn't think so. But I just don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection at the moment is that you cannot recall having had any contact with that group?

Mrs. PAINE. Except possibly some literature.

Mr. JENNER. Between the 1st and the 5th of November 1963, did you make any effort to obtain the address of Lee Oswald in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. How tall are you, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Around 5 feet 10 inches.

Mr. JENNER. I will ask you this general question. I take it, Mrs. Paine, that your study of and interest in the Russian language did not emanate in any degree from any interest on your part in associating yourself with any activities which were in turn to be associated with Russia and the Communist Party or Communist interests.

Mrs. PAINE. It certainly did not stem from any such interest.

Mr. JENNER. And your continued pursuit of it does not stem from any such motivation?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it does not.

Mr. JENNER. I think I have asked you this, but I want to make sure it is in the record. You are a pacificist?

Mrs. PAINE. I consider myself such. I don't like to consider myself as rigidly adhering to any particular doctrine. I believe in appraising a situation and determining my own action in terms of that particular situation, and not making a rigid or blanket philosophy dictate my behavior.

Mr. JENNER. But you are opposed to violence?

Mrs. PAINE. I am.

Mr. JENNER. Whether it be violence for the overthrow of a government, or a chink in the government, or physical violence of any kind or character?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I consider it to be--violence to be--always harmful to the values I believe in, and just reserve the right to, as I have said, appraise each situation in the light of that initial belief.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have read a number of newspaper articles and also various magazine articles dealing with the tragedy of November 22, 1963, and the Oswalds, and even of yourself. Do you have an overall reaction of any kind to those articles and newspaper stories, particularly with respect to their accuracy, you knowing what you do as to what the actual facts were and are?

Mrs. PAINE. There are several things I might say in reply to that.

First, I have thought about someday teaching a course in high school on the subject of newspaper and magazine accuracy, using this particular story of the assassination of President Kennedy as source material.

I have been impressed with both the inaccuracy of things I have read and my inability to judge inaccuracy when they do not--when the story does not refer to things I personally know about.

On the whole, my feeling has been that the press has been pretty accurate in reporting what I have said. I have by no means seen all of what was reported of what I said.

I might say in this connection, but in a slightly different department, that you will see a large stack of newspapers on a table in my house when you come. They represent the newspapers I have not yet----

Mr. JENNER. Perused?

Mrs. PAINE. More than that--not yet found courage enough to read. They are the newspapers of late November and of December. And while I have tried to read them, I usually end crying, and so I have not gotten very far.

I might say, just to be perfectly clear, that my problem is my grief over the death of the President. That is what brings me to tears--much more than my own personal touch with the story--although this just makes more poignant my grief.

Mr. JENNER. I will read some listings that appeared in Lee Oswald's memorandum or diary or address book, and ask you whether they were mentioned during the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, or whether you might have heard about them otherwise. The Russ.-Amer. Citizenship Club, 2730 Snyder Avenue.

Mrs. PAINE. I have never heard of the organization, and I am not certain where such a street might be.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not, either. I am just reading all of the entry there is in the diary.

Mrs. PAINE. And I am to simply say whether it rings any bell?

Mr. JENNER. That is right. Russ. Language School, 1212 Spruce.

Mrs. PAINE. I know the Spruce Street is in Philadelphia, but, otherwise, that rings no bell.

Mr. JENNER. Russian Lan., and then Trn.--216 South 20th.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. I assume that means Russian language----

Mrs. PAINE. Training?

Mr. JENNER. Trn.

Mrs. PAINE. Probably. It is not familiar to me.

Mr. JENNER. Next, Russ. Groth. Hos. Organ.

Mrs. PAINE. Could it be hospitality?

Mr. JENNER. It might be. I will read it in full. Russ. Groth. Hosp. Organ, 1733 Spring.

Mrs. PAINE. This organization is not familiar to me.

May I say each street appears in Philadelphia. In other words, Snyder, I recall as being in Philadelphia, and Spring is.

Mr. JENNER. This is Spruce.

Mrs. PAINE. Spruce was the first one I recall. The last you mentioned was Spring; is that right?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. None of those entries awakens anything in your mind in any respect?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. During these weekends in the fall period, when Marina was living with you, I take it your husband visited at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did he visit on other than weekends?

Mrs. PAINE. Occasionally. It seems to me he often came on Tuesday evening. And then he came on Friday, and sometimes on Sunday afternoon, as I have testified.

Mr. JENNER. He would visit Friday evening and then return to his quarters. And he would visit reasonably often on Sunday and return to his quarters?

Mrs. PAINE. Every now and then on Sunday, I would say. And then sometimes during the week on a Tuesday or Wednesday.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if you had become aware prior to November 22 of the fact, if it be a fact, that there was a rifle in the blanket wrapped package on the floor of your garage, what do you think now you would have done?

Mrs. PAINE. I can say certainly I would not have wanted it there.

And that my pacifist feelings would have entered into my consideration of the subject. I cannot say certainly what I would have done, of course. And, as I have described myself and my beliefs, I like to consider the situation that I am in and react according to that situation, rather than to have doctrine or rigid belief.

I can certainly say this. I would have asked that it be entirely out of reach of children or out of sight of children.

Mr. JENNER. Well, when the FBI agent interviewed you on November 1, had you known of the existence of the rifle on the floor of the garage, what is your present thought as to what you might have done with respect to advising the FBI of its existence?

Mrs. PAINE. I would seriously doubt that I would have considered it of significance to the FBI. I know that a great many people in Texas go deer hunting. As one of the FBI agents said to me after the assassination, he surmised that every other house in the street had a rifle, a deer rifle.

I would have simply considered this was offensive to me, but of no consequence or interest to them.

Mr. JENNER. You see what I am getting at. Would the existence of your knowledge of the rifle on the floor of your garage, connected with Lee Oswald's history as you knew it up to that point, and some of the suspicions that you voiced in your testimony with respect to Lee Oswald, have led you to be apprehensive out of the ordinary as to the existence of that rifle on the floor of your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe I would have assumed that this rifle was for any other purpose than deer hunting.

Mr. JENNER. Did the FBI, any of the FBI agents inquire of you prior to November 22, 1963, as to whether there were any firearms in and about your home?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did any FBI agent inquire of you as to whether you thought there was any suspicious--anything suspicious about Lee Harvey Oswald that caused you any concern with respect to the safety of the Government of the United States or any individual in it, in that Government?

Mrs. PAINE. No; they made no such inquiry.

Mr. JENNER. And I would repeat this line of questioning with respect to Marina as well as Lee. Would your answers be the same if I did?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they would be the same.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, Marina testified of her impression that when Lee returned to Dallas, and then to your home on the 4th of October 1963, that he--when he came to your home he had a valise or a suitcase.

Mrs. PAINE. Marina testified, did you say?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. What impression do you have in that respect?

I realize that when you reached your home he was out on the front lawn.

Mrs. PAINE. On what day?

Mr. JENNER. Fourth of October 1963.

Mrs. PAINE. No. He arrived at my home before I did on the 4th of October.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I said that.

Mrs. PAINE. But it was on the 21st of November that he was out on the front lawn when I arrived. My recollection is that----

Mr. JENNER. Please. I am referring back to the time that he came from Dallas initially. That was the 4th of October.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to any luggage of any kind or character that he might or did bring with him on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. Did you ever see him take any luggage out of your home anytime after he had come to your home on October 4?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And, as I believe I have testified, it is my impression that I took him to the bus station in Irving on the 7th of October, and then he carried both shirts over his arm freshly ironed, and this green zipper bag. But this is my impression.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, at no time from October--including October 4 to November 22 did you see him have in his possession any luggage other than the green zipper bag?

Mrs. PAINE. That he was carrying?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. My statement is correct?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of any other kind of luggage being used by him.

Mr. JENNER. Did the subject of abortion--was the subject of abortion ever one discussed between you and Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I think I have so testified. When--part of our first meeting, as we talked in the park, or close to the first meeting, after having left her apartment in March, and walked to the park--she told me that she was going to have a baby, and she said that she didn't believe in abortion.

Mr. JENNER. Is that when the discussion occurred on birth control?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And was that discussion on birth control directed towards her avoiding a larger family?

Mrs. PAINE. Future pregnancies; yes.

Mr. JENNER. It was devoted solely to that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has left with me some questions. I think probably I might have covered them all.

Would you give us, please, your views with respect to what you understand to be the Russian system or philosophy--that is, I am not seeking your views as to what it is, but as to either your sympathy or empathy or aversion to it.

Mrs. PAINE. I am of the opinion that--saying the Russian system is rather a larger statement than saying the Communist system. But it may be that the question was intended to speak about the Communists, or governmental system.

Mr. JENNER. I think that probably is the thrust of Representative Ford's inquiry.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have already testified, I dislike deception in any form. I might go on to say that I think the people of Russia on the whole have very little choice about their leaders at elections or----

Mr. JENNER. It is the antithesis of democracy?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is certainly a dictatorship.

Mr. JENNER. And that is abhorent to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, far from having any sympathy with or admiration for communism or what we might call the Russian system or philosophy, you have an aversion?

Mrs. PAINE. I have an aversion.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever studied Karl Marx?

Mrs. PAINE. No; not in the sense of studied. I think one history course in college included a few readings from Karl Marx.

Mr. JENNER. Your readings of Karl Marx's writings have been confined to your work at Antioch College as a student?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And they were very brief.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever read the Manifesto?

Mrs. PAINE. The Communist Manifesto?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. That was part of the same course.

Mr. JENNER. But there, again, your studying of it or reading of it was limited to the college course?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you did not pursue it thereafter?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. And if I asked you the same question with respect to Das Capital, would your answers be the same?

Mrs. PAINE. I have seen the size of the book, and I certainly would not want to read it.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, you have not read it?

Mrs. PAINE. I have not read it.

Mr. JENNER. Even in connection with a college course?

Mrs. PAINE. Even in connection with a college course. I think I would have fudged on that assignment, had it been assigned.

Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony you certainly do not consider yourself a Communist.

Mrs. PAINE. I certainly do not.

Mr. JENNER. And quite the contrary.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what your activities--you are a member of the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mrs. PAINE. I am.

Mr. JENNER. What have been your activities in connection with that organization?

Mrs. PAINE. Primarily to send in my membership fee each year. I have been a member for some years prior--that is to say, going back to the time prior to my marriage. I have recently, perhaps a year ago, became on the membership committee for the local chapter in Dallas. That chapter, I might say, only just opened a year and a half ago.

Mr. JENNER. And have you, as part of those activities, sought to enlist others to become members of the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mrs. PAINE. I have talked to perhaps half a dozen people, to encourage them; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss this organization with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Have you told us in your testimony up to this moment all of your discussion of that organization with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. I call your attention to my testimony of a conversation with Lee over the phone saying that I thought that if he was losing his job because of his political views, that this would be of interest to the Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. JENNER. Did any of those discussions embrace the question of what possible help this organization might be to him if he got into trouble eventually?

Mrs. PAINE. My judgment is that he took that statement I have just referred to as an implication of the possibility of help from that organization to him personally.

Mr. JENNER. With reference particularly to the possible need at any time for counsel?

Mrs. PAINE. He may have assumed such a thing. My understanding of the Civil Liberties Union is that they are not interested in just defending people, but in defending rights or entering a case where there is doubt that a person's civil liberties have been properly upheld.

Mr. JENNER. Or might be?

Mrs. PAINE. Or there might be such doubt; yes. I wouldn't know whether Lee understood that.

Mr. JENNER. At least your discussions with him do not enable you to proceed to the point at which to enable you to voice any opinions in this area or subject than you have now given?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the name John Abt before you received the telephone call you testified about from Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not heard that name.

Mr. JENNER. And, therefore, you never suggested it to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. You are a modest person, but could you indicate for us how fluent you are or you think you are in the command of the Russian language? Please don't be too modest about it. Be as objective as you can.

Mrs. PAINE. It is a very hard thing to describe, but I might start by saying that I have perhaps an 8 or 10-year-old's vocabulary.

Mr. JENNER. You are using as an example the vocabulary of a native Russian citizen of the age of 8 to 10 years old?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do not have that much fluency. If the subject I am talking about is something in which I have developed a vocabulary--and these subjects are mostly in terms of home or the things that one does--then I can proceed with an ability to convey my meaning. If it gets into anything technical which would use terms such as insurance or taxes, I have to look it up. I approach any writing of a letter with some dread, as it is difficult for me. I might say in this connection that I presume to teach Russian, not because I am fluent, but because I think my pronunciation is particularly good for a nonnative, and because I have gone the route of the beginning student and know how to do this, and have thought a great deal about what helps a person to learn. I would not presume to teach English to people who didn't know the language, though I am fluent in it.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; you are.