Chapter XV: Part 15

She developed some difficulty with the other trustees and was asked to resign, or resigned herself--I don't know for sure--the other trustees say they asked her to resign. She says she was forced to resign. And she formed with the help of her father and her friends another foundation in Philadelphia which is much smaller, and I think which does also research on cystic fibrosis. And she is running the administrative end of it. She is not doing the actual research, but she is running this foundation as an administrator.

Mr. JENNER. Do you visit your child?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I used to. Right now I have a great deal of difficulty in visiting my daughter, Nadya, because she wants to live with me, you see.

Mr. JENNER. The daughter?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The daughter, yes. And she thinks that by living in Texas her health will improve. Now, the mother thinks it is just the opposite--that if she lives in Texas that she will die, because of the inadequate medical facilities. So we had rather bitter litigation last year as to--I tried to take the custody away from her, because of various reasons--mainly, I think that the daughter would be happier with me, and with my new wife. And the little girl has developed a tremendous liking for my new wife. But the court decided that--we went into such bitter fighting, that I stopped this litigation in the middle, and I said, "I am going to Haiti anyway. Let's leave things as they are for a year. I am not going to see Nadya for a year, on the condition that she will get all my letters, all my gifts, and that I get a medical report from her every 4 months." And the poor girl is also under psychiatric treatment.

Mr. JENNER. Who is?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nadya, my little girl. She is under psychiatric treatment--because of her illness, and also she developed a dislike for the other members of her family, for her half brothers and sisters, because they are healthy, and she is not.

Mr. JENNER. I take it that your former wife--there had been some children born of her present marriage?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; who have no cystic fibrosis.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when the divorce took place, your wife filed suit in Philadelphia, didn't she?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the suit was filed in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. She commenced it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you resist it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we came to an agreement that we would get a divorce anyway. I don't know what you call it in legal terms. The lawyers made an agreement that, here it is, you see. We decided to sell our house and settle our accounts.

Mr. JENNER. Property?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Property settlement. And I think it was very fair for her, just as my lawyer, Morris Jaffe, can tell you the whole story about that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, upon your divorce from Wynne, or Didi, Sharples, did you remain in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I stayed in Dallas, carried on my consulting work in the same manner, concentrating mostly from then on on the foreign end of this business.

Mr. JENNER. What do you mean foreign end?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I started taking more and more foreign jobs. In 1956 I took a job in Haiti for a private--for some private individuals connected with Sinclair Oil Company.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1956--just before our divorce, I think. We were already separated. Then we must have been divorced the end of 1956.

Sorry--too many marriages, too many divorces. So I started taking more and more foreign jobs. And, also, in my relationship with Mr. Sharples, because--my ex-wife's father--I did some foreign work for him, mainly in Mexico. He had some foreign exploitation in Mexico, some oil operations in Mexico. Anyway, I started getting a lot of foreign jobs--maybe jobs in Nigeria.

Mr. JENNER. I want to know what countries you were taken to in connection with those.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, all in all, I visited and I did foreign work, which means preparation for taking of concessions and suggestion of what areas should be taken for an oil and gas concessions--it was in Nigeria, in Togoland, in Ghana, in France--I may have forgotten with some other countries where I did not have to go, but I did some work right there in Dallas--examined the geological work and made suggestions.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And eventually----

Mr. JENNER. You did travel to Mexico?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; many, many times.

Mr. JENNER. In connection with that work.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Cuba, too.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, in Cuba--I traveled in Cuba before Castro, during the Batista days. The ex-president of Pantitec Oil Co. formed the Cuban-Venezuela Oil Co., a development--a land development to promote eventually a large oil drilling campaign in Cuba. He almost owned about half of the whole country under lease. This was during the Batista days. He invited me to come there and look the situation over, and make recommendations. And so I visited the fields there, and his office--that type of job that I had from time to time.

Mr. JENNER. I want to get the countries now. Cuba----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Cuba, Mexico, Ghana----

Mr. JENNER. These are your travels now?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is where I actually went.

Mr. JENNER. That is what I want to know.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ghana, Nigeria, Togoland, and France.

Mr. JENNER. Now, all of this was in connection with the work you were doing with respect to oil exploration and gas exploration and development for what group?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For No. 1--for Charmex. Then Cuban Venezuelan Trust--that is Warren Smith Co. Then the Three States Oil and Gas Co. in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Now--were there some other companies?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; then Lehman Trading Corp. in New York. I may have had other jobs, but they escape me now. But they were all consulting jobs for clients of mine--either from Texas or from New York. And then in 1957 those foreign jobs led to my being pretty well known in that field. I was contacted by Core Lab in Dallas in regard to a job in Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. That was for----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was for ICA--a job for ICA and for the Yugoslav Government.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what ICA is.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. International Cooperation Administration here in Washington--which wanted an oil and gas specialist to go to Yugoslavia and help them develop oil resources under the--I don't know--some kind of government deal. Under this----

Mr. JENNER. Did a man named Charles Mitchell accompany you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--George Mitchell.

Mr. JENNER. And his wife?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I found him because he was a geophysicist. In other words, I did the geology and petroleum engineering, and he did pure geophysics. The ICA needed two men. I looked over the country for somebody who was capable and willing to go to Yugoslavia, and found George Mitchell in Dallas, and eventually both of us went there.

Mr. JENNER. You were single at this time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he was married?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was married.

Mr. JENNER. And his wife accompanied him?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did; yes.

Mr. JENNER. This was for the International Cooperation Administration?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Washington 25, D.C.

The Yugoslavian Government paid my living expenses there, and the ICA paid my salary.

Mr. JENNER. And you had a contract of some kind?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think the contract was for 8 or 9 months.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you left on that venture, as I recall it, somewhere around February of 1957, wasn't it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I left for Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; you left for Yugoslavia when?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was very early in 1957, because, 8 months, and I returned in October.

Mr. JENNER. 1957?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1957; yes. All the reports were made--quite a considerable number of reports were made in triplicates--some of them went to ICA, some went to the Yugoslavian Government. I think some went to the Bureau of Mines here.

Mr. JENNER. That was nonsecurity work, was it not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't have the slightest idea. They checked me, they gave me some kind of clearance before I went there. Because I had to wait for quite some time before they gave me the okay. And I noticed that after I got back from Yugoslavia, they were still checking me--after I got back from Yugoslavia they were still checking on me. One character came to see some of my friends in Dallas and said, "Well, George De Mohrenschildt is about to go to Yugoslavia. Do you think he is all right?" He said, "But he is already back from Yugoslavia."

Mr. JENNER. In the meantime, you had met your present wife, is that correct?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I met her in Dallas. And while we were in Yugoslavia, we became engaged, and she came to visit me in Yugoslavia for awhile. But she was actually by profession a designer for a Dallas firm of I. Clark, and she went to Europe on a business trip for I. Clark, and while doing so she came and visited me in Yugoslavia for a couple of weeks.

Mr. JENNER. She was not yet divorced at that time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think she was divorced. She was getting a divorce.

Mr. JENNER. Where had you met her? Were you living at the Stoneleigh Hotel in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And she was living there, also?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was living there, also. And she had this separate apartment. I was living on the Maple Terrace. She was living at the Stoneleigh Hotel.

Mr. JENNER. Was her daughter with her at that time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think she was. She came over later.

Mr. JENNER. I mean was her daughter living in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; her daughter was living in California.

Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that town?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Where she lived in California?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some canyon--Cayuga Canyon. She can tell you about that.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I met my present wife's ex-husband. His name was Robert LeGon. We developed a liking for each other. I remember he told me that he will give his wife a divorce if I promise that I would marry her. A very charming fellow.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and your present wife live with each other before you were married?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, we did, for a relatively short time, because we couldn't make up our minds whether we should get married or not. We both had experiences in the past. We decided that we would see if we wanted to be married or not. And we eventually did.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I think you can remember this.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the name of God we were married, because I remember we went on a trip to Mexico and decided that here we are married--in the name of God, we are married. Then, later on, we put it in the name of----

Mr. JENNER. You had a civil ceremony?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. After your wife had become divorced from her former husband? His name was Bogoiavlensky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but he changed his name to LeGon.

Mr. JENNER. Can you spell that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That name was a discovery for me, also. In the States they used the name of Le Gon.

Mr. JENNER. When you and your wife married--by the way, her given name is Jeanne, is it not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. When you and she married, did you continue to live at the Stoneleigh, or did you take up residence somewhere else?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, we kept on living at the Stoneleigh for awhile, and then we took a house in University Park, on Thackery. We took a house because both our daughters came to live with us. Actually, her daughter lived with us a little while before, and then my daughter came to live with us. She came from France to live with us.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned her daughter. Now, you make reference to your daughter. That is your daughter Alexandra?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And she had been living in France?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She had been--she was brought up by her aunt in Arizona, because her mother----

Mr. JENNER. And her aunt's name is what?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nancy Clark--and eventually she became Nancy Tilton III. Anyway----

Mr. JENNER. She lives where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She lives in Valle Verde Ranch, near Tucson, Ariz. And that is where my daughter was brought up. She was brought up and spent most of her childhood in that place, with her aunt and her husband, Mr. Clark.

Mr. JENNER. Her aunt's husband?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. This is the daughter by your marriage to Miss Pierson?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Her mother, more or less, left her with--it was with what we call her aunt, because it is a European way--that was her first cousin, so, therefore, we call it an aunt--my daughter's aunt. I guess in English you would call it a cousin. We call it an aunt--whether it is cousin, second cousin or third cousin, it is still an aunt. Anyway, she calls her "Aunt" also. And she spent practically all her childhood there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you visit there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very frequently I went to visit her there, as often as I could. And Mrs. Clark and her husband wanted to adopt her. So we had a litigation there. I objected to her adoption.

Mr. JENNER. Did your former wife consent?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Which one?

Mr. JENNER. To the adoption?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, for awhile she was willing to accept that adoption, because she was not interested in her any more. She lived away from her, and married somebody else. She was not interested in the daughter.

I objected to that adoption, and very fortunately, because eventually both my ex-wife and myself had to ask back for the custody of Alexandra because her aunt became an alcoholic and became an impossible person to live with. And Alexandra asked me and her mother to take her away from her. We had a lawsuit--not a lawsuit, but whatever you call it--a custody case.

Mr. JENNER. Where was this, in Tucson?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, that was in Palm Beach--because Nancy took Alexandra with her to Palm Beach, and tried to keep her away from us. And we caught her there in Palm Beach and eventually the judge decided that she should be with us.

Mr. JENNER. When was this?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was in 1956.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you say "with us." Who do you mean?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean either with me or with the mother--with the mother who became Mrs.--what a complication--Mrs. Brandel--my ex-wife, the the mother of my daughter Alexandra, became Mrs. Brandel. Her husband is a Dutchman who lives in France and in Italy, and is a television producer.

Mr. JENNER. So your ex-wife, Dorothy Pierson----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And myself--asked the judge to decide with whom our daughter should stay. And she asked to stay with me. But I was not married yet. This was in the time between the marriages. I was not married. I could not offer her a home--although I wanted her to be with me.

And then the judge said, "Well, you go with your mother to France."

And that is what she did. She went to France, stayed with her mother, I contributed to the support. She stayed there for, I think, a year and a half, and decided to come to stay with me in Dallas later on.

That is why we had the house on Thackery. She lived with us.

Mr. JENNER. She did come to live with you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. After you were married?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. She lived with us in Dallas for quite some time.

And, finally, she eloped from school----

Mr. JENNER. From what school?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Highland Park School.

Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, and married a boy from Dallas by the name of Gary Taylor. She is divorced from him now.

Mr. JENNER. That was last September, was it not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, last September.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They have a little boy by the name of Curtis Lee Taylor.

Mr. JENNER. And who has custody of that child?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The boy has the custody.

Mr. JENNER. Gary Taylor?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe I am wrong on that. Maybe they have a divided custody. But the child right now, according to my information, is with Gary Taylor and with Gary's mother, Mrs. Taylor.

Mr. JENNER. Gary has remarried, did you know that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor, find out what is happening to the child.

Mr. JENNER. You say you keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor. Which Mrs. Taylor?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mrs. Taylor, Gary's mother, who, more or less, takes care of the little boy right now.

Mr. JENNER. Following that divorce, your daughter--what did she do?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She went to school, to Tucson, to study----

Mr. JENNER. What school is that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some secretarial school. And from then on, the situation becomes vague to me, because I was already gone. I get occasional reports telling that she left school, that she is somewhere in New York right now.

Mr. JENNER. Has she remarried?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not as far as I know. I am trying to get in touch with her right now.

The last address is in some small town in New York, working in a hospital. She always wanted to be a nurse. Supposedly she has a job as some sort of a practical nurse in a hospital right now.

Mr. JENNER. How old is she now?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She will be 19 now.

Mr. JENNER. Did your daughter come to know either Lee or Marina Oswald?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I will get to that, then.

While we are on these children, let's cover, if we might, your present wife's daughter.

What is her name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her original name was Jeanne LeGon, the same as my wife's.

Mr. JENNER. There is something indicating that her name was Elinor.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Jeanne Elinor LeGon--middle name Elinor.

My wife being an ex-dancer, she was a ballerina, had a tremendous admiration for Eleanor Powell, and named her daughter's middle name after Eleanor Powell. She was also an admirer of Eleanor Roosevelt, but that is beside the point.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She changed her name----

Mr. JENNER. Your daughter did?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her daughter changed her name from Jeanne to Christiana, not to be confused with her mother. And the name is hard to pronounce. She changed it legally, herself, to Christiana LeGon.

Later on, I understand she changed it to Christiana Bogoiavlensky--whatever I hear about it.

Mr. JENNER. Is your daughter married--is Christiana married?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. To whom is she married?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She married Ragnar Kearton.

Mr. JENNER. And who is Ragnar Kearton?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ragnar Kearton is a young man from California, from San Diego, Calif., whose mother I know, and whose father I don't know, but I understand he is vice president of Lockheed Aircraft Corp. And Ragnar is a well educated fellow, went to London School of Economics, but never graduated. He is a freelance writer, painter. To make a living I understand he works for Lockheed for awhile, and also he buys yachts, repairs them, fixes them up, and sells them.

Lately they moved to Alaska, and have been living there.

Mr. JENNER. What is----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Working for the Forestry Department.

Mr. JENNER. In Alaska?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is Christiana also known as Christiana Valentina?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't know. Never heard that name.

Mr. JENNER. After she married Kearton----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They changed their name to--according to them--to make it known the fact that her father's name was Bogoiavlensky, and they do not want to deny the Russian heritage. So that she is very fond of her father, and she wanted his name to be incorporated in their name, and that was by mutual agreement.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your understanding that your wife's former husband, Robert LeGon, married your present wife, and after they were married, they--his name was then Robert Bogoiavlensky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is my understanding.

Mr. JENNER. And after they were married they changed their name to Le Gon?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand that when they came from China, they decided that the name was too difficult to pronounce, and they changed their name to Le Gon.

I have always known her as Jeanne LeGon, my wife. She is still carrying that name professionally. She is well known--she is a well known designer, she has a name practically as a trademark.

Mr. JENNER. She met Mr. Bogoiavlensky in China?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. This is all hearsay, of course, because I was not particularly----

Mr. JENNER. She will tell us first-hand tomorrow.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand of her family--she also has Russian background. Her father was a director of the Far Eastern Railroad in China, and she was born in China and lived there.

Mr. JENNER. Harbin?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in Manchuria. Lived there until 1938. She came to the United States the same year I did.

Mr. JENNER. That is a pure coincidence?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. We lived right next to each other in New York, and didn't know each other--right next door.

Mr. JENNER. I understand you are very happily married.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. At last.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your wife's daughter, Christiana, she is where, at the present time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right now she is in Copenhagen, Denmark, with her husband.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They came to visit us in Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that. When did that take place?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They came to stay with us in December.

Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And January 1964?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And where does your daughter live when her husband is in Alaska?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was in Alaska with him. They lived both in Anchorage and in Valdez. That is where the earthquake took place--in both places.

Mr. JENNER. But they are presently vacationing or traveling in Europe?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do they have any children?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They have no children.

Mr. JENNER. What are Mr. Kearton's interests?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Interests in life? Or professional interests?

Mr. JENNER. Well, give me the professional ones first.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Professional--he is--my wife will tell you more about him, although I know him pretty well, also, and I like him. He is of ultra conservative tendencies politically.

Mr. JENNER. Please explain that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In other words, he is for Senator Goldwater, 100 percent. His father is a friend of Goldwater's. And----

Mr. JENNER. Well, is he an aggressive----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very aggressive fellow.

Mr. JENNER. Is he aggressive politically?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Likes to discuss it, but I don't know whether he has any actual political--I mean whether he actually works to have Goldwater elected. But he likes him and freely expresses his admiration for him.

I don't think he is too much of a boy to go around and try to collect votes for Goldwater. He is too much concentrated on himself.

Mr. JENNER. Does it refresh your recollection that you and your wife, Wynne Sharples, were married on the 7th of April 1951?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is probably it, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you were divorced almost exactly 5 years later, in April 1956?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, that is correct--5 years. I have the date clearly in my mind.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, let me ask you this at the moment: Are you a drinker?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Occasionally, but not too much.

Mr. JENNER. This will be all right to state to you on the record. Of all the people interviewed, everybody said that you were, if anything, a purely social drinker, they had never seen you intoxicated or close to it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is not true, because I have been drunk many times--not every day, but many, many times. Not under the table, but I have drunk more than I should.

Mr. JENNER. You said your son, Sergei, had died in 1960.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in August 1960.

Mr. JENNER. You are sure of that--rather than 1961?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1960--I am pretty sure.

Mr. JENNER. Well, what I have might be a misprint.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife will tell you. I am not very good at dates.

But I think it is 1960.

Mr. JENNER. You are very good on names, though.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I remember names. Dates I am very poor at. That death, you know, put me in such a terrible condition of despair, that I decided, and I asked my wife to go with me on a trip throughout all of Mexico and Central America, to get away from everything, and to do some hard physical exercise. At the same time I thought I would review the geology of Mexico and Guatemala. And it was an old dream of mine to make a trip like that, but not in such rough conditions as we did it.

Mr. JENNER. I am going to get into that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you are interested, go ahead.

Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to recall where we were when I interrupted myself.

At this point, tell me your political philosophies.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My political philosophy is live and let live. I voted Republican, but--I am just not interested in politics.

Mr. JENNER. I am not thinking of politics in that sense, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, I am thinking in politics with a capital P.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think I am a 100 percent democrat, because I believe in freedom.

Mr. JENNER. Are you talking about individual freedom now?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Individual freedom. And I believe in freedom of expressing myself when I feel like it. I believe in freedom of criticizing something which I think is not democratic.

Mr. JENNER. What is your attitude towards communism?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Towards communism, I wouldn't like to live in a Communist regime, I am not a Communist, never have been one. But if somebody likes it, let them have it. And I get along very well with fellow workers who are Communists. For instance, in Yugoslavia, I got along very well with them. Of course, we didn't discuss politics very much out there. On the contrary, you have to stay away from that subject. But I consider the other person's point of view.

If somebody is a Communist, let them be a Communist. That is his business.

Mr. JENNER. Have you----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not try to propagandize him, and I see some good characteristics in communism.

Mr. JENNER. There are some indications that you have expressed that view from time to time during your lifetime while you are in this country, that there are some good qualities in communism.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, there we mean--or what do you mean? What is your concept of communism?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am looking at communism more or less more from the economic point of view. I think it is a system that can work and works, and possibly for a very poor man, and a very undeveloped nation it may be a solution.

Mr. JENNER. A temporary one?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A temporary one, yes--which eventually, and I believe in evolution, and I have seen through my life that communism in certain places has developed into a livable type of an economy, a way of life.

Now, I repeat, again, that I would not like to live there. Otherwise, I would be there. Because I am too independent in my thinking, and I like business to be free. But----

Mr. JENNER. You like individual freedom and free enterprise?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Which you find in the United States?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And while you can see some benefits in communism as to persons of limited means, and poor countries, for initial development, you think that for a higher level of economic or cultural development communism is not good?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Is that about it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.

Now, I am very much influenced by a book called "Poor Countries and Rich Countries," by the editor of the Economist in London, which expresses my ideas on economics of the world as it is today.

It is a book which says that--which is available any place here--which says that the world today is divided into poor countries and rich countries, and that the question of communism and socialism is for ignoramuses. That freedom can exist in both types of economies--could exist eventually.

But the main problem of countries today is the richness and the poorness. Now, the rich countries are all of Western Europe, the United States, Canada, all of the satellite countries of Soviet Russia, Soviet Russia, Australia, and so on. Those are the countries which are producing more than they can eat--you see what I mean? And they develop the tools to produce industrial goods.

While the other countries, the rest of the world, is falling down in the morass of poverty, and becomes poorer and poorer as time goes on. You see what I mean?

Right now, I am living in one of those countries temporarily, Haiti, which is in terrible economic condition because people eat more than they can produce. Now, what can save those countries?

Either a tremendous injection of money from the capitalist countries, or a Communist regime, or a Socialist regime. What else can they do? So that is something to think about and worthwhile reading.

Mr. JENNER. But, on the other hand, as far as your political philosophy is concerned, the thing that stands major with you is individual freedom?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Naturally, you can see from all my life that I believe in individual freedom, and I could not live without it.

Mr. JENNER. Sometimes to excess.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To excess; yes. The big discussions I had in Yugoslavia was always about the freedoms. And I remember that I was attacked one day by a group of Communists in Yugoslavia about Governor Faubus, in Arkansas--saying "What happens there? Is that an example of democracy in Arkansas?" And I told them, yes, it is an example of democracy. I told them that you can imagine in your own country that the Governor would object to the order from the President, and the President had to send troops to make the Governor obey. And that made an impression on them. A few examples like that.

Mr. JENNER. When you were in Yugoslavia, then, you did have debates with the Communists?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Occasionally--after a few drinks, you can talk to them. But they were engineers and geologists--they were not people active politically--they were not big shots.

With the big shots you cannot discuss it. But with smaller people, you can discuss.

Mr. JENNER. Are you interested in debate?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Are you inclined in order to facilitate debate to take any side of an argument as against somebody who seeks to support----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an unfortunate characteristic I have; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that leads you at times to not necessarily speak in favor of, but to take the opposite view of somebody with respect to communism?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; sometimes it annoys me to have somebody who does not know anything about conditions anywhere else in the world attack while he is himself actually a Communist. You see what I mean? A Communist to me, in a bad sense, is somebody who does not believe in free discussion. So it annoys me that somebody Bircher will tell me, "George, we are for freedom here." I said, "Just the opposite, you are not for freedom."

Mr. JENNER. That is, you have taken the position that the Bircherites are not for freedom?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't like that movement personally. I dislike it very much. I have run into trouble lately in Texas before I left with some of my clients who were very much inclined in that direction.

For instance, they object to the United Nations. They put words in my mouth. I remember one day they said, "George, would you believe in abolition of the Army in the United States and creating an international force?"

I said, "No."

He said, "Well, that is what the United Nations stands for."

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I get sometimes into heated discussions and sometimes I say things which maybe you don't think. But I may have insulted some other people's feeling, because I don't have a hatred against anybody. I don't hate communism--hell, let them live.

Mr. JENNER. You don't hate it for somebody else, but you don't want it yourself?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't want it myself; no.

Mr. JENNER. Your whole stay in Yugoslavia, however, was in connection with the International Cooperation Administration?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I am glad that you reminded me of that. I developed an idea, being in Yugoslavia, of forming a joint venture to use Yugoslav workers and American equipment.

Mr. JENNER. What workers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yugoslav workers, who are very good and very inexpensive, to do some drilling in Arabic countries, and using American equipment. One of my clients is John Mecom in Houston, who, among other things, controls Cogwell Oil Well Equipment Co. in Wichita, Kans. And he has been having a hard time selling his equipment lately. So one day we were discussing in Houston what could we do to promote the use of his equipment. And we came to a conclusion that it might be a good idea to form a joint venture, American-Yugoslav joint venture, using cheap Yugoslav labor, and very good labor, to drill in Arabic countries, because there is a great future of doing this, you see.

And John Mecom sent me to Yugoslavia in 1958 to look at the possibility of forming such a venture.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was this the same year you were in Yugoslavia for the International----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the next year. This was in 1958.

Mr. JENNER. Were you then married?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You had married your present wife?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think so. I hope I am right on my dates. Yes--I think we were married then. Anyway, I went by myself to Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. I think you married your wife, Jeanne in 1959, did you not, in the summer?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You are probably right. Maybe I was not married at that time. Now, don't take those dates 100-percent sure. I can correct them later on when I look at the papers. My mind was so busy with Oswald that I don't keep my mind on the dates of marriage.

Mr. JENNER. I haven't reached Oswald yet.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know. It will be a long discussion. I think I expressed my point of view pretty well.

Mr. JENNER. I do want you to get into this 1958 Yugoslav venture.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us more about it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. All right.

John Mecom said, "George, you go to Yugoslavia and fix a contract for me to use the American equipment in conjunction with Yugoslav labor, and possibly use some Yugoslav engineers, to drill in Arabic countries--especially in Egypt." This is a little bit beside the point. But Marshal Tito is very close to Nasser, and it is very easy to send Yugoslav workers to Arabic countries today, and they actually do it all the time. They send the workers there, they do some jobs there. And they use German equipment, and sometimes Italian equipment. So why not use American equipment?

I heard about the very big deal in Egypt that could be gotten with that type of combination. However, before going to Yugoslavia I went to see the ex-head of ICA here in Washington. He was Ambassador in Yugoslavia when I was there. Riddleburger. And I told him about this project. And I asked him, "Do you think it will be workable? Will it be acceptable in Washington?"

And he said, "I think that sounds like a good idea."

It is nothing terrible to form a joint American-Yugoslavian venture--form a corporation.

I went to Yugoslavia and did get a contract of that type, a contract in the form of an agreement to be signed later on, just a project.

I came back to Texas, discussed it with Mr. Mecom, and he said, "George, I have changed my mind. I don't think I would like to do business with those damned Communists."

So the project fell through. And eventually quite a few corporations of that type were formed, between the French and the Yugoslavs, Germany and Yugoslavs, and Italians and Yugoslavs.

Mr. JENNER. You were in Ghana in 1957, was it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think later than that. I think 1960, probably, or 1959.

Mr. JENNER. What led you to go to Ghana?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have clients in New York by the name of Lehman. The first name is Rafael Lehman, who owns the Lehman Trading Corp. I have done some work for him in Texas. A wealthy man of American and Swedish origin, who owns, among other things, stamp concessions all over Africa. They have rights to issue stamps for the Government. And this is one of those ventures that are very profitable, because they practically give the stamps gratis to the Government, and sell the stamps to the philatelic agents. And he has, I think, about 11 African countries under contract to produce stamps for them. And one of them is Ghana.

And while there--he travels around Africa all the time--he found out that there were some oil seeps in the northern part of Ghana, indications of oil. And he asked me to go there and investigate. And eventually we took a concession in the northern part of Ghana. We still are supposed to have it, this concession.

Mr. JENNER. Was it published when you went to Ghana that you were a philatelist?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When we arrived in Ghana?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. Explain that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was a trick, because I was representing the philatelic agency, Lehman, but we did not want to let it be known to Shell Oil Co. that I was a consulting geologist.

Mr. JENNER. Don't you think Shell Oil Co. would know that George De Mohrenschildt was an oil geologist?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we didn't want it to be known, anyway, because I even didn't go through--I didn't spend any time in Accra. I went right away to the northern provinces. How did you know that I went as a philatelist? You have to say that sometimes in the oil business you use certain tricks. But that was intentional on the part of Mr. Lehman, because Shell Oil Co. is supposed to have the real entry to all those countries, as far as concessions go.

Mr. JENNER. Did this venture of yours in behalf of Lehman Trading Corp. have anything--was that political in any nature, and I say political with a capital P.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; of course they have to be friendly with Nkrumah, because they produce stamps for him. But that is the only affiliation they have with him.

Mr. JENNER. So this venture in Ghana had no political aspects whatsoever?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. It was entirely and exclusively business, as you have explained?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A hundred percent business.

Mr. JENNER. Except that you were working for the International Cooperation Administration when you were in Yugoslavia first, that had no political, capital P, implications whatsoever?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was purely business.

Mr. JENNER. And your second venture in Yugoslavia for the Cardwell Tool Corp., that was strictly business?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. No politics involved?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in any respect whatsoever an agent?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have.

Mr. JENNER. Representing----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never, never.

Mr. JENNER. Any government?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You can repeat it three times.

Mr. JENNER. Any government?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I could take what you call the fifth amendment, but, frankly, I don't need to.

Mr. JENNER. I should say to you, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, that any time you think that your privacy is being unduly penetrated, or that you feel that your constitutional rights might be invaded, or you feel uncomfortable, you are free to express yourself.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You are more than welcome. I have never been an agent of any government, never been in the pay of any government, except the American Government, the ICA. And except being in the Polish Army--$5 a month.

Well, maybe I made a mistake. Maybe I am working for the Haitian Government now. It is a contract. But it has no political affiliations.

Mr. JENNER. Subject to that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Again, no political angle to it.

Mr. JENNER. What I am driving at--whether you work for a foreign government or not, whether you ever have in your lifetime--have you at any time had any position, which I will call political, in the capital P sense, in which you sought to advance the interests of a movement or a government or even a group against a government?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have. Never was even a Mason. Never part of any political group.

Mr. JENNER. And any views you have expressed during your rather colorful life have been your personal views?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Personal views; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Not induced or fed or nurtured by any political interests, with a capital P, on behalf of any group?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Sometimes I criticize things, like in Texas--I criticize the lack of freedoms that the Mexicans have, the discrimination, and things like that. But nobody pays me for that. I say what I think.

Mr. JENNER. Whether they pay you or not----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have never been a member of any group of any kind. My life was too busy, as you can see, in order to be involved in anything like that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we covered your two Yugoslav ventures, your Ghanian venture--the time that you had the company when you were a young man in Europe, traveled around Europe.

We covered all your employments in the United States, from the time you came here in May of 1938.

I think we have reached the point of your great venture which you started to tell us about, and I had you hold off--your trip down into Mexico and the Central American countries--tell us about that in your own words, how it came about, and what you did.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I started explaining that already, that it is not a new idea for me. I said before that 20 years before, Roderick MacArthur and myself set out on a limited trip of this type, when we were both young men in Mexico.

And I have always been interested in Mexico as a very rich country mining wise, and I thought that it would be very interesting and useful for me to take a trip along the old trails of the mining of the Spaniards as they went through Mexico during the days of the Conquistadors.

You see, the Spaniards went to Mexico for the purpose of finding mines, and the routes they made in Mexico and through Central America are all directed toward certainly logical prospects, certain mines. And I started collecting through the years--I started collecting information on routes of the Spaniards in Mexico.

But I never thought I would really be able to do it, until came the time in 1960 when my boy died, and I was in very--practically out of my mind, because this was my only son. And I said to hell with all that--I had some money saved up, and I said I am going to stay away from my work and from the civilized life for 1 year, and I am going to follow the trails of the Spanish Conquistadors, all throughout Central America, and possibly all the way to South America.

And to do it the hardest possible way, because I believe in physical therapy for your mental problems.

And my wife, fortunately, also, loves the outdoors, and agreed with me that that is something we should do.

We gave up our apartment, I gave up my office, and we set out from the ranch on the border of Mexico and the United States.

Mr. JENNER. What ranch?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This was--that is the ranch which belongs to a friend of ours. It is called the--it is Piedras Negras. It is on the Mexican side of the U.S. border. On the American side you have a little town called Eagle Pass. On the Mexican side you have Piedras Negras.

There we have some very close friends who own a big ranch. Their name is Tito and Conchita Harper. They have--they are half Mexican, half Americans. They live on the ranch nearby, and in Piedras Negras.

By the way, when I was visiting them, at the time I was visiting them, a few months before, we heard about the death of my boy, right in their house. We were sitting in their house when there was the long distance call from Canada that my boy had died. They are very, very close friends. They also advised me that it would be a good thing for me to take a trip like that, knowing my interest in Mexico and my interest in the outdoor life.

And that is what we did. We started off at the first 200 kilometers--Tito took us in a plane to cross the first range, a very difficult range, and the rest of the trip was made on foot, all the way to the Panama Canal.

Mr. JENNER. All the way to where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Panama Canal.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me what countries you passed through.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We passed through the whole of Mexico, in the longest trajectory you can have. Then the whole of Guatemala, the whole of San Salvador--El Salvador, rather, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama.

And on the way there we stopped occasionally in towns, received our mail, through the American Embassy and consulates, visited some of the friends we have out there. In other words, we led a life close to nature for a whole year.

Mr. JENNER. Were you in Mexico City during this trip?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; because our route kept us away from Mexico City.

Mr. JENNER. At any time during that trip was Mikoyan in Mexico?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. That I have to tell this incident; that is interesting. This is completely a different incident.

I went to Mexico City, I guess, with--a year before that, on behalf of----

Mr. JENNER. Just a minute.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is another consulting job.

Mr. JENNER. When did you make your walking trip through Mexico?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the end of 1960 and 1961--all of 1961.

Mr. JENNER. That took about 8 months?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Almost a year.

Mr. JENNER. So you would return in the late fall of 1961?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1961.

Mr. JENNER. November, I believe.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the occasion when Mikoyan was in Mexico was some other occasion?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A different occasion; yes.

Mr. JENNER. As long as we have raised it at this point, we might as well complete it. Tell us about that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About this Mikoyan incident?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went to Mexico City on behalf of Texas Eastern Corp., which is a gas company in Houston, which has a contract with the Mexican Government for the purchase of gas. In other words, this corporation is buying gas from Mexico at the border.

Mr. JENNER. We talk about gas here--we are talking about natural gas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Natural gas; yes. And this contract was in jeopardy--somebody else wanted to take it. And Texas Eastern, which is the corporation, a very large powerplant corporation which has the Big Inch from Texas to the east--through their vice president, John Jacobs, asked me to go to Mexico, since I am familiar with the country, and try to figure out in which way we can keep that contract. And while in Mexico, we had to entertain all the officials of the Mexican Government.

Mr. JENNER. You say "we."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife went with me.

Mr. JENNER. Your present wife?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When did this take place?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was--I think it was in 1959. I cannot swear you about the dates. But about 1959. Or early in 1960--one or the other. I went to Mexico on other jobs before, many times. But this particular job, since you are interested in the Mikoyan deal, which you call it, was this particular----

Mr. JENNER. Did I say deal or incident? I think I said incident.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Incident. Anyway, one of our friends in Mexico is the pilot of the president--the personal pilot of the President Mateos of Mexico. He also took the Russian group, the Russian engineers, with Mikoyan, on the tour of Mexico, at the same time I was there.

By the way, our proposition of the Texas Eastern was to provide some financing for Pemex in exchange for this contract--which is the Mexican Oil Co. And the Russians were offering the same thing to the Mexicans.

Mr. JENNER. So you were then really competing with the Russians?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Competing with the Russians. And through my contacts with this pilot, and with the Mexican officials, I knew exactly what the Russians were offering. We did not make any particularly big fight about it, but we knew what they were offering, and we knew what we could offer for our contract. It was one of the most interesting jobs I ever had.

And then one day, Mikoyan was with that group--the rest of them were technicians. One day Mikoyan was leaving. I remember we had dinner the night before with this pilot of the president. And he said, "George, why don't you come with me to meet Mikoyan tomorrow at the airport?"

I said, "By God, that sounds like an interesting idea. I would like to meet the character."

He had such a publicity of being an excellent businessman, I wanted to learn something from him.

So I said, "All right, I will go with you."

And my wife said, "George, you better not go, because your people at Texas Eastern will look at it--they may look at it in a very peculiar manner, if you appear with Mikoyan"--and the Texas Eastern people--they are very conservative Texas people--if I appear in public with Mikoyan, I will not get any jobs from them.

Mr. JENNER. Particularly having in mind your Russian background?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; particularly my Russian background. So she says, "I better go instead of you."

Mr. JENNER. Your wife?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; so the next morning she went with the Mexican major, the pilot of the president--he still is a pilot for the president today, and he is married to an American--he is not a Communist, believe me. And he and Jeanne went together to the airport.

It was full of security officers--the Russian security officers and the Mexican officers. And the Mexican pilot let her go through all that mess.

Here was the Russian plane, and Mikoyan was making a speech. After that, the pilot took Jeanne, for the hell of it, and said, "I will introduce you to Mikoyan."