Chapter XXV: Part 25

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough, if I am not pressing you too much, to indicate what your philosophy of life is in that general connection?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe in doing as the soul prompts, and proceeding to help or offer help if the desire to do so comes from within me. It is not an ideology that I am following here, but a desire to live the best possible life I can, and to always seek to understand what that best life is.

Mr. JENNER. Have you finished?

Mrs. PAINE. I have a lot of thoughts about the problems of helping anyone, and about the possibility of self-deception or false pride that can enter, if you help someone because you think you should or from something outside an inner feeling that this is what you want to do. But I don't think I have to discuss it more fully than that.

Mr. JENNER. Return a moment to your conference with Mr. Hosty, on the first of November 1963. You have had time to search your own mind as to whether it occurred actually on the first of November, and what time of the day it was Marina testified, and this is for the purpose of refreshing your recollection if it does--I will read it back a little bit, she was shown Lee's diary and the entry to which we called your attention yesterday in that diary. She was asked, "Did you report to your husband the fact of this visit November 1 with the FBI agent?"

She responded: "I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came for a weekend I told him about it."

Then she added voluntarily: "By the way, on that day he was due to arrive--that is November 1.

Mr. Rankin said: "That is on November 1?"

She said: "Yes."

She said, "Lee comes off work at 5:30, comes from work at 5:30. They left at 5 o'clock," meaning the agents, "and we told them if they wanted they could wait and Lee would be here soon, but they didn't want to wait."

Does that refresh your recollection in that connection?

Mrs. PAINE. It may certainly have happened that way. My recollection stands as I told it yesterday.

Mr. JENNER. That it was more toward the middle of the afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, 3:00 or 3:30.

Mr. JENNER. And did you advise them, or do you have a recollection of having advised them that he was expected later that day for the weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. I only recall that I said he came on weekends or would be available to be seen here at my home, in other words, on weekends.

Mr. JENNER. She also has a recollection that at this particular visit there was only one agent rather than two.

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection, also.

Mr. JENNER. That is your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And that was Mr. Hosty?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. It could have been, Mrs. Paine, but your recollection doesn't serve you sufficiently at the moment, that Mr. Hosty was advised on the occasion of that conference that Lee Oswald was expected that particular weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. It could have been.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is, you don't want to take issue with Marina's testimony?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't; no.

Mr. JENNER. It possibly could have happened that way?

Mrs. PAINE. It certainly could have.

Mr. JENNER. But, in any event, you do remember clearly and distinctly that you advised Mr. Hosty that Lee did visit on weekends and that Mr. Hosty could return the next weekend or even this particular weekend to see Lee Oswald if he wished?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, you further advised him at that time that he was employed at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. I did indeed. May I interrupt?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Could we have a short break?

(Brief recess.)

Mr. JENNER. During the course of the interview on November 1, was there any reference to Lee's having passed out leaflets for the FPCC?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. And was there any inquiry as to whether Lee was engaging in or had engaged or was engaging in similar activity in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area?

Mrs. PAINE. There was reference to it, I suppose in the nature of an inquiry. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection that Marina said through you that Lee was not engaging in such activities in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area?

Mrs. PAINE. That seems correct to me.

Mr. JENNER. Marina was present, was she, at a subsequent interview on the 5th of November?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she was not.

Mr. JENNER. She was not? She likewise describes the November 1 interview similarly as you did, that it was in the nature of a conversation rather than an interview. That was your impression, was it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever engage in any political activity?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it offhand.

Mr. JENNER. Your sister, Sylvia?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I am sure they all vote when the opportunity affords.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; of course.

Mrs. PAINE. But you don't mean that?

Mr. JENNER. I don't mean that. I mean active political party activity of some kind.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't have any specific recollection.

Mr. JENNER. And you never did?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Is your brother a member of the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Or your sister?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Is your sister active as you are or a member of the League of Women Voters?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that.

Mr. JENNER. Your relations with your mother and your father--would you say you were rather close to your father and your mother?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I am close to both of them. I am particularly close to my mother.

Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true of your brother and your sister, you have a close relation with your folks?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I have the closest relation to my mother, and possibly my brother and sister-in-law, who are near in Ohio, are closer to my father, and I just can't say as to my sister's relationship, meaning I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. The relationships between yourself, your brother, your sister, your mother and your father, you are compatible? You are interested in each other's activities?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you exchange correspondence?

Mrs. PAINE. We do, and photographs of the children.

Mr. JENNER. And you have a lively interest in what each is doing, and they in you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that has always been true, has it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And do you exchange your troubles and your interests with each other?

Mrs. PAINE. When we visit. We are, none of us, terribly good letterwriters.

Mr. JENNER. From what I have seen I would take exception. I think you are too modest. There has been a good deal of letterwriting.

Mrs. PAINE. There has been a good deal of correspondence over the years; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And at least until recently, I don't know if you still do it, you were inclined to retain the originals of that correspondence and also copies of your letters, were you not?

Mrs. PAINE. For a goodly portion of the correspondence; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I have, which I will mark only for identification, three file cases of correspondence of your themes or writings in college. You might be better able to describe what is in these boxes than I in the way of general summary. Would you do so?

Mrs. PAINE. It also includes information helpful to me in recreation leadership, games, something of songs. It includes a list of the people to whom I sent birth announcements, things of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. It covers a span of years going back to your college days?

Mrs. PAINE. And a few papers prior to college.

Mr. JENNER. I have marked these boxes for identification numbers 457, 458, and 459. During my meeting with you Wednesday morning, I exhibited the contents of those boxes to you, and are the materials in the boxes other than material which is printed or is obviously from some other source that which purports to be in your handwriting, actually in your handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And those pieces of correspondence which purport to be letters from your mother, your father, your brother, and your sister are likewise the originals of those letters?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the copies of letters which purport to be letters from you to your mother, father, sister, and brother, and in some instances others are copies of letters that you dispatched?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record, please.

We asked you yesterday if you loaned any money to Marina or to Lee Oswald, and your answer was in the negative.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. We asked you if you had given any money to either of them, and your answer was in the negative, that is, cash.

Mrs. PAINE. I gave no cash.

Mr. JENNER. You gave no cash to either. What do you know about expenditures by Lee Oswald for such items as bus fare from Dallas to Irving and from Irving back to Dallas while looking for employment?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall taking him to the bus station once and picking him up once. There may have been another occasion, but my specific recollection is as to these two times.

Mr. JENNER. Just those two times? You already told us about the time he went to New Orleans, he bought two bus tickets and then he cashed in one. That was in the spring.

Mrs. PAINE. That was in late April.

Mr. JENNER. The same question with respect to telephone calls. You have already told us that was not a toll call from Dallas to Irving.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did he make telephone calls while he was at your home at any time?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing except this one I have mentioned, the time and temperature.

Mr. JENNER. What recollection did you have with respect to this purchasing of food for meals and whatnot either in New Orleans, Dallas, or in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. In New Orleans he purchased all the food that we used while there. In Irving, then after October 4 I saw him buy a few items for the baby or for June, things that Marina had requested, but no groceries.

Mr. JENNER. Now the same question with respect to clothing for himself, for Marina, and for June and Rachel. You have told us about the one instance in which he gave Marina some money to buy shoes for June, which was----

Mrs. PAINE. No, the shoes were for Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Were for Marina, and this had occurred during the week of the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE. Our plan was to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy these shoes. Just when he gave her the money, I am not certain. And these, of course, were not bought. I can think of nothing that was bought. Yes, one thing. When she was with me in the spring, late April to the 9th of May, she had some money from Lee for her own expenses, and she used a portion of this, I would think a rather large portion, buying a pair of maternity shorts, or they may have been Bermuda shorts, longer than that, slacks, even, possibly, but I know they cost nearly $5, and this was quite a large expenditure and quite a thrill. These were bought in Irving.

Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression that they had or at least that Marina was afforded very limited funds?

Mrs. PAINE. That is distinctly my impression.

Mr. JENNER. They never paid you anything, in any event?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the same question with respect to laundry. That would be his laundry largely. I take it from your telling us about you and Marina hanging up clothes in your backyard on the 22d of November that neither you nor she ever sent any laundry out for cleaning or washing.

Mrs. PAINE. No; and Lee brought his underwear and shirts to be washed at my house, and then Marina ironed his things and he would take clean things with him on Monday.

Mr. JENNER. So that as far as you recall, he made no expenditures for laundry?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. At least during the time that Marina was with you.

Mrs. PAINE. At least during the fall; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Any expenditures on his part to have his hair cut, that is, any expenditures to the barber, to a barber?

Mrs. PAINE. I guess there must have been such. I don't recall it having been mentioned. I certainly wasn't around.

Mr. JENNER. We did ask you yesterday something about some local barber who seemed to think that Lee had called regularly on Fridays or Saturday morning at the barber shop. Your impression of that is that that was not Lee who did that.

Mrs. PAINE. That is my impression.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, you don't recall him ever buddying with or having a 14-year-old boy with whom he went around while he was in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. I certainly do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. Would your recollection be to the contrary, that he did not?

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is distinctly to the contrary.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall that he ever purchased any records, that is playing records, songs?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I recall no such.

Mr. JENNER. The purchase of camera film and the development of camera film?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You are aware from reports of Marina's testimony that she took some pictures of him?

Mrs. PAINE. I read in the paper.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any picturetaking during the period, during the fall of 1963, either in New Orleans or in Irving or in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. Not by either Lee or Marina that I heard of.

Mr. JENNER. And did you hear any conversation between them in your presence or with you with respect to his or they having a snapshot camera or other type of camera to take pictures?

Mrs. PAINE. No; the only reference to a camera was made by Lee when he held up and showed me a camera he had bought in the Soviet Union and said he couldn't buy film for it in this country, it was a different size.

Mr. JENNER. Did they ever exhibit any snapshots to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; a few snapshots taken in Minsk.

Mr. JENNER. But no snapshots of any scenes in America that they had taken?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or people?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. What is your impression as to whether Lee gave Marina any fixed or regular sum of money, by the week or the month?

Mrs. PAINE. When she was with me, she received no such regular sum of money.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all you can recall as to funds given by Lee to Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is Hutch's Market--is that something familiar to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a local grocery store or delicatessen store?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when Lee took Marina to Hutch's Market to purchase some groceries?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such an occasion. I do recall that Marina and I, or perhaps it was only I went in and bought milk there. I think this was on our way to my house on the 24th of April. But it is not the store I usually go to, and I am quite certain it is--it is too far to walk--I am quite certain----

Mr. JENNER. How far away is the place?

Mrs. PAINE. It would be a 3-minute drive--about 10 blocks.

Mr. JENNER. Ten blocks away?

Mrs. PAINE. Something like that.

Mr. JENNER. Is it further away than the----

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Than the market of which you spoke where you took Lee to----

Mrs. PAINE. It is a little closer than that but blocks in Irving are not well defined, I might say, so it is hard to say.

Mr. JENNER. When Lee came to your home on weekends, did he eat all of his meals there at your home?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; he did.

Mr. JENNER. I have already questioned you about breakfast. He always had his breakfast at your home but it consisted primarily of merely a cup of coffee?

Mrs. PAINE. He would eat a sweet roll if there was one.

Mr. JENNER. On occasion did he pack a lunch?

Mrs. PAINE. I remember one occasion when Marina packed a lunch or packed some food for him to take.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say there was anything regular about that?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Any effort on her part to prepare a packet of lunch for him?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You recall only that one occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss any finances in your presence?

Mrs. PAINE. I have already testified that we once in New Orleans, in September, discussed where he had worked and how to establish his residence in Texas. This involved giving me the remaining portion from a paycheck from the place where he had worked, and he discussed how much he was earning per hour at the two places he worked, the three places he worked when I knew him. But beyond that, I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Have you told us all the discussions that occurred between you and Marina with respect to their financial position and their finances and finances generally?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know what the busfare is from Dallas to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't.

Mr. JENNER. I will exhibit to you transcripts of three letters that you wrote your mother, which she permitted an agent of the FBI to copy.

I am going to mark those three transcripts Exhibit 461 for identification.

They appear as pages 14, 15, and 16 of a report of agents Wilson and Anderson, dated December 4, 1963.

(The documents referred to were marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit 461," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. The first of those is a "Dear Mom" letter dated September 30. I take it that was September 30, 1963. Perhaps I should go at it this way. Do you recall that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall that letter.

Mr. JENNER. And was it in 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. I wish to call your attention to a couple portions of the letter and ask you a question or two.

In the second paragraph which I have underlined for my notes it reads:

"He has been out of work"--I will read the whole paragraph.

"To my surprise Lee was willing for Marina to come here to have the baby."

That is Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. "Even grateful." Then you say, "He has been out of work since August, and their income was $33 a week unemployment compensation, not much."

Now, this letter was written from where and followed what event?

Mrs. PAINE. This was written from Irving on September 30, and it followed our arrival in Irving on the 24th of September.

Mr. JENNER. From New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. From New Orleans. I had forgotten that I had heard the sum or the amount of money he was receiving in unemployment compensation.

Mr. JENNER. But this does not refresh your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It does?

Mrs. PAINE. It refreshes my recollection that my mother has shown me the same letter. I registered the same surprise then. I had quite forgotten that sum.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in the next paragraph it says:

"But I feel now that he does want to keep his family together, and will send for them as soon as possible."

That was your feeling at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. It certainly was.

Mr. JENNER. After New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you will notice in the letter, you say: "I spoke both to Lee and to Marina of my expectation that you would be here February to June. Lee asked how this would affect Marina's tenure, and I said she can have a place as long as they have need for it."

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Now was there, then, at that time, a feeling or expectation that Marina would remain with you possibly for some considerable period of time?

Mrs. PAINE. I had not that feeling, as is shown by what is written in the above sentence, that he will send for his family as soon as possible. However, I had made it clear that I was willing for her to stay if that was necessary.

Mr. JENNER. So that the text of that letter was not intended by you to convey the impression that you then expected at least at that time and that Lee also might have expected and Marina, also, that she would be at your home for any considerable period of time?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not expect that.

Mr. JENNER. As to your expectation--was that dependent on his securing employment and sending for her, and at that time both of you, meaning Marina and yourself, expected that when he obtained work he would send for Marina and they would be together again?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the second letter, which is dated October 15, 1963, and apparently at your home, it says 2575, it is 2515, isn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. West 5th Street--and it is also a "Dear Mom" letter. Would you look at that and see if you did dispatch that letter to your mother?

For the record, Mr. Reporter, this present letter commences in the middle of page 15 of this document.

Do you recall the letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you report the fact the big news as of that day, that Lee had obtained a position.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Was that his position with the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You don't mention the place of work in your letter.

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't.

Mr. JENNER. You go on to say in the second paragraph of the letter:

"It is likely that Marina will stay on here for some time, perhaps through Christmas or New Year's anyway, with Lee coming weekends as he has the past two."

Had there been some change now that even though he had a position with the Texas School Book Depository, that Marina's joining him was being deferred?

Mrs. PAINE. I think that is clear in the next sentence.

Mr. JENNER. All right; read the next sentence.

Mrs. PAINE. "He has a room in Dallas at $8 a week currently, that he'd like to save a bit before getting an apartment, I think, and, of course, Marina should be here until she has rested some from childbirth."

We talked for some time of her being there both up to the birth of the baby and then for a time after so that I could help her with the care of the house, and with June.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have an expectation that that stay might be on into the following year?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. 1964?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I notice you say in the last paragraph of this particular letter: "I have mentioned to Marina that I'd like to have you here in February and that I have given up the idea of a trailer."

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, to me that is an indication that you expected that Marina might be with you as late as February 1964. Do I misinterpret? In other words, Mrs. Paine, you were considering the possible difficulties that might arise from the fact that you were expecting your mother.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You hoped she might join you in February of 1964, and that Marina might still be with you?

Mrs. PAINE. I feel that mentioning this to Marina was more an indication that it would be difficult for me to have her after February. I didn't make mention of this until such time as it was clear to me they could well get an apartment and support themselves.

Mr. JENNER. And you were thinking in terms that if your mother did come that it would probably be necessary that Marina join her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. During this period of time, did you have any feeling at all that Lee was--there might be an anticipation on his part that he would not rejoin Marina, or she him, that something might possibly intervene, an action on his part that would keep them separated?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a contrary feeling?

Mrs. PAINE. I had a contrary feeling from both, from each.

Mr. JENNER. And what was that?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina talked to me of her hopes that what problems they had in the marriage would work out, and Lee appeared to me happy when he was with Marina and June, and glad to see them, and I also felt that Marina remained somewhat uncomfortable accepting from someone else, that she preferred the more independent situation.

Mr. JENNER. State?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you had no inkling at all or any feeling, the sense on his part either directly from him or through Marina that he might not continue in the position, that is the Texas School Depository or might not continue to live in the Dallas area?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling. My expectation was contrary.

Mr. JENNER. When you read Commission Exhibit 103, which I have described as the Mexico letter that you found on your desk secretary, did you have any feeling after you read that that Lee might have in mind going to Havana or going back to Russia through Mexico, or some other manner or means?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I really didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Did you think that letter was by and large something of a figment of the imagination of Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me that a goodly portion of it, the part upon which I could judge, was false.

Mr. JENNER. The third of the letters that your mother made available appears on page 16. It is dated October 27. I take it from the context of that letter, it was written by you on October 27, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you recall sending that letter to your mother?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. And it was written after the baby Rachel had been born?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

What? It was written some time after the baby had been born?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, 7 days. One week, as a matter of fact, is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 461 the three letters which I have identified and which the witness herself has identified as having been her letters and having been dispatched to her mother.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 461, were received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. I don't know if I asked you if the second and third had actually been dispatched by you.

Mrs. PAINE. They had all been dispatched by me, yes.

Mr. JENNER. During the period of your contacts with each of the Oswalds, was there any discussion between them in your presence or with you directly by either of them respecting his family and members of his family?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I should limit that first to up to November 22, 1963. If so, would your answer be the same?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what was that discussion? Try and fix the time and places if any particular discussion stands out.

Mrs. PAINE. I have already testified to Marina's comment on wishing she could reach her mother-in-law to announce the baby's coming birth. Marina also talked to me----

Mr. JENNER. And that Lee did not give her the telephone number or advise her of means whereby she could reach her mother-in-law?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate to you that he, in turn, had indicated he didn't wish her----

Mrs. PAINE. She indicated that he did not wish to make contact.

Mr. JENNER. Did it go beyond that, that he did not wish members of his family to know that the child Rachel had been born?

Mrs. PAINE. Not that specifically.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. Marina told of having stayed with Lee's brother Robert and Robert's wife in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. When they first returned from Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. And of her sorrow that she hadn't been able to talk more, having virtually no English, but that she had liked both of them.

I also learned from her that Robert had been assigned by the same company for which he worked in Fort Worth to a different town, I think in Alabama for a brief period, and then I heard in October or early November that he had been----

Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that he had been transferred to Denton.

Mr. JENNER. Denton, Tex.?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else?

Mrs. PAINE. Part of the correspondence that I have given to the Commission contains a reference by Marina to Lee's brother, to the best of my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Brother Robert?

Mrs. PAINE. I can look that up. It doesn't say. But I assumed so.

Mr. JENNER. Are you aware now that Lee had two brothers?

Mrs. PAINE. I am now aware of that.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during their contact with you up to November 22, 1963, that he had two brothers?

Mrs. PAINE. I have a vague recollection that Marina had mentioned there being another brother, but I am not certain.

Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur in the way of conversation or otherwise that brought to your attention the fact, if it be a fact, that Lee was avoiding contact with his brother and his mother?

Mrs. PAINE. I was under the impression----

Mr. JENNER. In the fall of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. I was under the impression that he was not avoiding contact with his brother, but that he was avoiding contact with his mother.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during this fall period that he was employing a post office box, he had rented a post office box and was using it to receive communications?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. At any time during your acquaintance with the Oswalds had anything been said about his renting a post office box?

Mrs. PAINE. There was an occasion, I think it must have been after we had been to the bus station on April 24 that he asked to go by the main post office in Dallas to pick up some things. That would have implied a post office box there. But that was----

Mr. JENNER. What date was this?

Mrs. PAINE. April 24, to the best of my recollection. I can't think----

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. I recall that I was driving and Lee went into this main post office.

Mr. JENNER. Where? In Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. In Dallas, and the only time I can think it could have been was that day.

Mr. JENNER. Did he come out with any mail?

Mrs. PAINE. Magazines, I think.

Mr. JENNER. Were you able to observe what those magazines were?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak of his life as a youth and a young man?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or his experiences in the service?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know or were you aware that he had been in the service?

Mrs. PAINE. His two large duffels which I saw a number of times said Marine Corps on them.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of the fact that he had been in the Marines?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it had been mentioned. I don't specifically recall.

Mr. JENNER. But just in passing, not in the sense of his relating any of his experiences in the Marines?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I do recall one occasion in late October or early November when Marina said to me in the morning that the two of them had had a long and very pleasant conversation. Lee related things about his past life, for instance his having been in Japan.

Mr. JENNER. Did she elaborate?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Just talked in terms of conclusion, that is, that he had related these events to her and they had talked about it for some time?

Mrs. PAINE. The point of her telling me of this was that this was unusual. He didn't usually reminisce and converse in this way.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had a contact with or she with you, a Mrs. Shirley Martin?

Mrs. PAINE. Mrs. Shirley Martin came to visit me at my home, accompanied by her four children, and dog, some time in January-February, I don't know just when.

Mr. JENNER. Late January or early February?

Mrs. PAINE. I would guess so.

Mr. JENNER. Of this year?

Mrs. PAINE. Of 1964; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that incident to us?

Mrs. PAINE. She telephoned to ask if she could come out.

Mr. JENNER. Had you known her?

Mrs. PAINE. I had not known her. I had heard her name from the New York Times correspondent in Dallas, who said he had received a letter from her.

Mr. JENNER. All right; proceed.

Mrs. PAINE. She came out, told me that she had been in Dallas going over the route which Lee Oswald is supposed to have taken from the School Book Depository to his rooming house, and thence to the place where he was arrested, and she was in a hurry at that point to get back to suburban Tulsa, Okla., but wanted to ask me a few questions, and I answered whatever she wanted to know.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what her questions were?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall; no.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had any correspondence with Mrs. Martin?

Mrs. PAINE. I have answered one of her letters by writing in the margin the answers to the questions that letter posed, and sending the whole thing back to her.

Mr. JENNER. So that you do not have a copy of any correspondence with Mrs. Martin?

Mrs. PAINE. She has sent more than one letter. I said I had answered one and sent it back on that letter. I have perhaps four--no; perhaps as many as eight letters from her now that, some are directly typed and some are just carbons of something she has said to a large group of people. We have also had some communication by telephone.

Mr. JENNER. May I see those letters when I am in Dallas Monday and Tuesday?

Mrs. PAINE. You can certainly see them.

Mr. JENNER. Would you summarize generally what the inquiries of Mrs. Martin have been and the subject matter and the nature of your responses? Telephone, or otherwise?

Mrs. PAINE. I do recall in the initial visit when she was in my home I asked her if she thought Lee Oswald was not guilty of the crime he is alleged to have committed and she said, well, that she couldn't say that, that it would be foolish at this point in the inquiry to say that, but that she was not satisfied with the evidence that led to a public conclusion that he was guilty.

Mr. JENNER. Did you express any opinion on your part?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. I said that I thought he was guilty of the act.

Mr. JENNER. You did not know Mrs. Martin prior to the time she came to your door?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. And your acquaintance with her in the interim has been limited to what you have testified?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you are not working with Mrs. Martin in her campaign or crusade or whatever it may be?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I answer any questions she has just as I do answer questions of newsmen or other people who wish to inquire about what I know.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please give me your impression of Lee Oswald's personality, what you think made him tick, any foibles of his, your overall impression now as you have it sitting there of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. My overall impression progressed through several stages.

Mr. JENNER. Why don't you give those. I think it would be helpful to us if you would. Start at the beginning.

Mrs. PAINE. In the spring what I knew of him was that he wanted to send his wife away back to the Soviet Union, which she didn't want to do, that he would not permit her to learn English or certainly didn't encourage it. I knew that he had lost his job and looked unsuccessfully. I formed an initial negative opinion about him, on really very little personal contact. I saw him very briefly the evening of the 22d of February, the evening of the second of April, and the afternoon of the 20th of April, and again on the 24th of April and so as far as I remember that is virtually all of the contact I had had directly with him.

And this impression stayed with me throughout the summer and throughout my visits to various friends and family on my trip of August and September 1963, and I undoubtedly conveyed to the people I talked to during that time that impression, which I carried at that time.

When I saw him again in New Orleans, beginning the 20th of September, I was impressed quite differently.

He seemed friendly. He seemed grateful, as reported in this letter to my mother, even grateful that I was offering to have his wife in my home and help her make arrangements at Parkland Hospital to have the baby there, at a fee adjusted to their income. He appeared to me to be happy, called cheerily to Marina and June as he came in the house with a bag full of groceries. He, as I described, washed the dishes that evening that Marina and I went down to Bourbon Street. And particularly in parting on the morning of September 23 I felt he was really sorry to see them go. He kissed them both at the house as we first took off and then again when we left from the gas station where I had bought a tire.

And I felt, as expressed in this letter that you just showed me to my mother that he hoped to have his family together again as soon as he could.

Then, of course, the impression enlarged as I saw him in my home on the weekends beginning October 4, and I have read into the record one letter I wrote to my mother during that period, which shows that he tried to be helpful around the house, that he played with my children, that he, it appeared to me, was becoming more relaxed and less fearful of being rejected, and I had sensed in him this fear earlier. It was because I had sensed in him in the spring this insecurity and feelings of inadequacies that the thought once crossed my mind as expressed to Mrs. Rainy that he could be guilty of a crime of passion if he thought someone was taking away from him his wife, something valuable to him. Clearly he valued Marina. She was his only human contact, really, and I think while----

Mr. JENNER. His only human contact?

Mrs. PAINE. Really, so far as I could see, the only friend he had, and while he did quarrel and was petty with her on many times that I saw, he, I felt, valued her, and, of course, it is also true, as I have reported, that I never saw him physically violent to her or cruel, so that my impression of him, which I carried with me throughout my trip during the summer, changed, and my impression of him up to the time----

Mr. JENNER. Of the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE. Of the assassination, was of a struggling young man who wanted to support his family, who was having difficulty, who wanted to achieve something more in life than just the support of his family and raising children, who was very lonely, but yet could meet socially with people and be congenial when he made efforts to be.

Mr. JENNER. Was that effort confined largely to his immediate family?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall specifically----

Mr. JENNER. And to you and your children?

Mrs. PAINE. And I think I told you this, but that it is not in the record, that Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer with her two daughters--no; I mentioned that to the record--came over to their house in New Orleans in September, and he was a genial host on that occasion, and he was, I felt, enjoying being the center of interest for four or five people at this initial party when I first met him.

Mr. JENNER. That was in the spring? That was February of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Right; so that it is in this period when he was coming out weekends in the fall to my home that he seemed to me a man striving, wanting to achieve something, a man without much formal schooling nor much native intelligence, really, but a striver, trying hard, and I never felt any sense during that period that he might be a violent person or apt to break over from mild maladjustment to active violent hostility towards an individual.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling or impression that he in turn felt frustrated, that the ideals and objectives toward which he was reaching were unattainable, and he was having that feeling that they were unattainable, or at least that others were not accepting him in the concept in which he regarded himself?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I think I have testified that----

Mr. JENNER. Was that fairly distinct in your mind?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was quite distinct. I don't believe he felt successful.

As I have said, I didn't talk much with him about what his aims were. But it seemed to me, and Marina expressed to me her feeling, that he had an overblown opinion of himself, and of what he could and should achieve in the world.

Mr. JENNER. What is your impression of him as his being introspective or an introvert or an extrovert? Did he seek friends or did he avoid social contact? What are your impressions in those areas of him?

Mrs. PAINE. I would say that he was a combination, that the man within was an introvert, preferred the company of the television set or a book, but that he could, as I have said, be a genial host or go to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union with my husband, and I understand that he made a fairly good impression upon some of the people there.

And I have also heard that he was making a fairly good impression where he was working at this last place.

Further, it is not the sign of an introvert to blow off on little things to your wife, as he did. I felt that he exercised the safety valve of expressing irritations early. He didn't save them up. They came right out. I might say, also, I felt that he was primarily an emotional person, though he talked of ideology and philosophy, that what moved him and what reached him were the more emotional qualities of life, and that he was really unusually sensitive to hurt.

Now, some of this is hindsight, and I would like to label it as such, but I want to say that I was not at all surprised reading after the assassination that he took a little puppy to his favorite teacher as a gift, and then came over to see this puppy very often. This was in the fourth grade or so. As an effort to make a warm contact and show feeling.

Mr. JENNER. That is, if this incident did in fact take place, it was something that you could understand?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Understand in the sense that it might be something----

Mrs. PAINE. In terms of what I saw.

Mr. JENNER. That Lee Oswald would have done, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. As a child.

I did feel that very likely he took fewer and fewer risks making friends as he grew up than he perhaps had as a child, but I was guessing at that, the risk of being close, in other words.

Mr. JENNER. Took fewer and fewer risks?

Mrs. PAINE. I think he was fearful of being close to anyone.

Mr. JENNER. Or being hurt?

Mrs. PAINE. Because he could, therefore, be hurt, right.

Mr. JENNER. Not being accepted?

Mrs. PAINE. If he allowed himself to be friends or be close, then he opened the possibility of the friend hurting him, and I had this feeling about him, that he couldn't permit or stand such hurt.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us of your feelings toward Marina? You liked her? That is what I am getting at.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I like her very much. I felt always that what I wanted to say and what I was able to understand of what she said was hampered by my poor Russian. It improved a good deal while with her, and we did have very personal talks about our respective marriages.

But I felt this was just a developing friendship, not one in full bloom, by any means. I respected what I saw in her, her pride, her wish to be independent, her habit of hard work, and expecting to work, her devotion to her children, first to June and then to both of the little girls, and the concentration of her attention upon this job of mother, and of raising these children.

I also respected her willingness and effort to get on with Lee, and to try to make the best of what apparently was not a particularly good marriage, but yet she had made that commitment and she expected to do her best for it.

Mr. JENNER. What is your present reaction, and even as you went along, of her feeling or regard for or with respect to you?

Mrs. PAINE. I felt she liked me. I felt she tended to put me in a position of Aunt Ruth, as she called me, I have already said, to Junie, almost as aunt to her rather than a mother as she was equal, in other words, she was a young mother and I was a young mother equal in age and stage in life.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, you were of her age, were you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I am older than she. I am 31.

Mr. JENNER. You are 31 and she is what?

Mrs. PAINE. Twenty-two. But our children were fairly close in age, and our immediate problems were fairly similar therefore.

Mr. JENNER. Now; would you give me your reaction to Robert?

Mrs. PAINE. I have very little reaction to Robert, of course, having met him only at the police station and said very little to him there, and equally little when he came with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin to pick up Marina's things at my house a few weeks after the assassination. That is the sum total of my contact, so that what impressions I have have been formed from what people said and not directly formed.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, you had so little contact with him that you really have formed no particular opinion with respect to him?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression at all or any knowledge, if you have knowledge, of his impressions of you and of your husband?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I have no knowledge of his impressions of me or my husband.

Mr. JENNER. And do you have any impressions apart from knowledge?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I have some impressions about what Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin are.

Mr. JENNER. What are they? Who are the two men you mentioned--Mr. Martin?

Mrs. PAINE. Mr. Martin acted as business advisor for Marina and she lived at his home for some time after the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have some contact with him?

Mrs. PAINE. I met him on the 21st of December at his home, came to the door and he recognized and asked me in. I don't know I had met him before because I didn't know he had been one of the men who had come with Robert to pick up the things for Marina, but he said he had been on that occasion.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. JENNER. We were talking about Mr. Martin. Go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. We had a short but fairly cordial talk and I left with him a package of letters that had come to my address but were really for Marina, containing notes and checks of donations.

Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of what the contents of those were?

Mrs. PAINE. They were addressed to me in my name, so that I opened them and then these were enclosing a check asking me to deliver it to Marina, this sort of thing.

And also brought, I can't remember, some items, things I found in the house that belonged to her very probably that we hadn't noticed when Robert had come to get the remaining items.

From a call to the Secret Service headquarters in Dallas I had gained the impression that I shouldn't try to see Marina Oswald at that time, and while I was under the impression that she was at Mr. Martin's home it was not my particular intention to see her.

I wanted to meet him if I could and learn anything that would give me some more impression of how things were going for her at that time, and with this small collection of donations for her that I was taking, I wrote a short note to her, a Christmas greeting, and returned home.

I came--perhaps I should interrupt here.

Talking about my contact with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne is really best done in connection with the letters I wrote to Marina, and these are--since the assassination, and these are in Irving. It might be better to do the whole thing as part of the deposition there.

Mr. JENNER. When I come to Irving this coming week?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What feeling do you have as to the reason why, if you have any at all, there appears to have been this sudden, if it is sudden, at least lack of contact between you and Marina commencing with the last time you saw her some 10 days or 2 weeks ago? When was that?

Mrs. PAINE. The morning of the 23d of November.

Mr. JENNER. And you have had no contact with or from her from the 23d to some 10 days or 2 weeks ago, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. You recall I said that I had talked with her by phone the evening of the 23d and then again around noon of the 24th.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Then there was one call from her to me, telephone call from the motel where she was staying for a couple of weeks after the assassination. It was brief, but she expressed her gratitude to me.

Mr. JENNER. Her gratitude for what?

Mrs. PAINE. For things that I had done, for having had her at my home. I said, either said or she asked that Michael was staying at my home now, and she said, "Well, maybe something good can come of even this terrible thing." I said that I was writing an article with a fellow for Look Magazine.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the article we put in evidence yesterday?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and she expressed her feeling that that was a good thing, really her feeling that she hoped I might get some financial remuneration from it. I think she always felt terribly indebted to me in a way she couldn't resolve. I said I had talked by telephone with Mrs. Ford the previous day. This telephone call between myself and Mrs. Ford was the first time she and I had talked.

Mr. JENNER. The first time you and Mrs. Ford had talked?