Chapter XXVIII: Part 28

You used a 10-year-old comparison as to vocabulary. What would you say as to your Russian grammar--that is, command of the technicalities of grammar? Would it be superior to an 8-to 10-year-old?

Mrs. PAINE. My vocabulary----

Mr. JENNER. I mean sentence construction.

Mrs. PAINE. An 8-to 10-year-old would do better than I do in actual conversation, but would not be able to give you the names of parts of speech as I can in Russian. I have a book knowledge of grammar in Russian. But this doesn't prevent me from making more mistakes than an 8-or 10-year-old would make if he grew up native to the language--many more mistakes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say that is true of your writing--that is, when you compose a letter?

Mrs. PAINE. My writing would be with fewer mistakes, because I can think about it more in putting it down, but still very many mistakes occur in it.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say your fluency in the command of the Russian language as of the time you first met the Oswalds in February of 1963 was comparably about the same as your fluency with that language now?

Mrs. PAINE. I have improved, particularly over the period of 2 months that Marina was at my home--I have improved my ability to converse, and certainly increased my vocabulary very markedly.

Mr. JENNER. Your experience with Marina has served to improve your command both of vocabulary and of the use of the language generally?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. How fluent was--I will put it this way. How would you judge the command of Lee Oswald of the Russian language, both as to vocabulary and as to sentence construction, and grammar generally?

Mrs. PAINE. He had a larger vocabulary than I do in Russian. He had less understanding of the grammar, and considerably less regard for it.

Mr. JENNER. He was not sensitive to the delicacies of the language?

Mrs. PAINE. He didn't seem to care whether he was speaking it right or not, whereas I care a great deal. He did read--he certainly subscribed to the things that I have described. And my impression is that he did read them some, and that he did not shy away from reading a Russian newspaper as I do. I find newspaper reading still very hard, and magazines, also. I have to do a great deal of dictionary work to get the full meaning of a magazine or newspaper article.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think that is because you are a sensitive perfectionist as far as the language is concerned? You wish to read it and use it in its finest sense, and you avoid what I would call, for example, pigeon English use of Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. I would rather communicate than avoid pigeon use, and I have to use broken Russian to communicate. In reading, I would say what I have described as my reading--it is just that I don't have a very large vocabulary--not that I want to understand every nuance of the words that I am reading. I just can't get the meaning reading it off.

Mr. JENNER. Yet you found that Lee was inclined to plunge ahead, as near as you can tell?

Mrs. PAINE. I gathered so.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina ever say anything about Lee Oswald's command of the Russian language, or his use of it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did. Let me preface my answer by saying she did not correct him, or at least not very often. She commented at one time in the fall, after Lee came to the house on a Friday, that his Russian was getting worse, whereas mine was getting better, so that I spoke better than he did now. It embarrassed me, is the only reason I recall her saying it.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say it in his presence?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did. That is why I was embarrassed. I did not know whether it was correct or not, and she had intended it as a compliment, but it was at the same time unkind to him. So this is why I was embarrassed.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us everything you learned about Oswald's sojourn in Russia, first from direct statements you heard him make--and this will be in addition to anything you have already told us.

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall anything that hasn't appeared in my testimony. And there is very little that has appeared in my testimony.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. Did he ever say anything about--I think you did testify a little bit about this yesterday--his efforts to obtain a passport to return to the United Slates, and his difficulties in that connection?

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that it was she who told me of this.

Mr. JENNER. And she rather than Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Calling upon your recollection, is there anything you have not testified to on that particular subject----

Mrs. PAINE. Of things he had told me himself?

Mr. JENNER. That is right. That emanated from him.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think of anything.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I will then ask you the same question as to Marina--that is, tell us everything else you can think of that you have not already told us that you learned about Lee Oswald's sojourn in Russia, that you might have learned through Marina.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I did learn that they applied for a passport for all of them, that it was a long time coming--no particular length of time mentioned. That they went to Moscow first and then by train, I gather, to Holland, and then by boat to New York City, stayed there a day or less, and came directly to Fort Worth. She mentioned to me, as I testified, that they had borrowed money for the payment of their steamship passage.

Mr. JENNER. Borrowed it from the State Department?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that she mentioned from whom. Just that they had borrowed it and paid it back. She said that Lee had an apartment by himself in Minsk, which was unusual.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say it was unusual?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she said it was unusual. That, in fact, it caused a little bit of resentment from those who didn't have so much privacy. And I gather that she moved into it after they were married.

Mr. JENNER. That is a fact, at least according to her testimony.

Mrs. PAINE. I have spoken to some extent of her aunt and uncle--that she lived there. Is this relevant to your question?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is relevant to Representative Ford's question, which I ghosted to you.

Mrs. PAINE. She liked her aunt very much, and commented to me several times that it was interesting that this particular aunt was no blood relation at all--it was the uncle that was the blood relation. But that this aunt was her favorite aunt. And they had many good conversations. Marina would go out on a date, and then come back and tell the aunt all about it. Marina commented that the aunt did not work, which she also said was unusual.

Mr. JENNER. Unusual in what sense?

Mrs. PAINE. That most women in Russia both did work and had to financially.

Mr. JENNER. Was that--did you infer from that that her uncle had a position in Russia that enabled him to supply funds so that his wife did not have to work?

Mrs. PAINE. That was the impression it left me with, yes.

She also said of her aunt that her aunt kept her floors spotless, and her whole house beautiful all the time. You want all the recollections I have of their time in Minsk?

Mr. JENNER. Anywhere in Russia.

Mrs. PAINE. Including her family background?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I knew because I had filled out forms for her at Parkland Hospital that she was born at Archangel. From conversation with her, I know she was born 2 months early.

Mr. JENNER. She was a 7-month baby, somewhat premature?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and her mother had bundled her up in great swaths of clothing to bring her from Archangel to Leningrad, when she was a tiny baby. I learned that the grandmother had been with her, I judge later in Archangel, when they lived there again, and was part of her upbringing. Her mother had some medical job--I never did understand.

Mr. JENNER. You mean job in the sense of position?

Mrs. PAINE. Position. I never did understand how responsible this was--whether she was a medical doctor or what her position was. Marina described the time when her mother died of cancer, and that also her grandmother died before the year was out of cancer, also.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever speak of her father?

Mrs. PAINE. She said that her father had died when she was very tiny, that she did not know her father, that she was raised by her mother and stepfather, and she did not know until it came out from something a neighbor let drop, when she was already in her early teens, that this man she thought to be her father was not in fact her father but her stepfather. This came as a shock to her. I knew that she had a younger brother and sister, Tatyana, I think, Tanya would be the diminutive. I don't recall her brother's name. It is my impression that she liked Leningrad, was proud of it.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say why she went from Leningrad to Minsk, or the circumstances under which--which surrounded her going from Leningrad to Minsk?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she never did. She did say that some people commented to her that it was strange to be leaving Leningrad, because there were many people who wanted to work in Leningrad who evidently didn't have the necessary priority or permission to get into the city to work there. She having been brought up there had the right to live there and work there. But this was the first I knew that you could not just move from one city to another in Russia if you wanted to look for work.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a discussion with her from time to time about the fact that you could move about in Russia only by permission.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, she mentioned--and I think I have said so--that you don't go to a different city in Russia without its being known. You have to register immediately upon coming to the city, show all your papers, and then the government assigns you your quarters--hotel or apartment or any room. You cannot get a place to spend the night if you don't sign in. Which is certainly a far cry from our situation in this country.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate any reaction on her part to the difference--that difference in America as compared with Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. It was not overtly stated. She did make clear to me that she thought the consumer goods here were superior to those in Russia. She said that very likely this was in part due to the fact that people are not sure of their jobs. In Russia you can do a bad job and still remain employed; whereas here she said a person had to produce good work or they didn't stay on the job.

Mr. JENNER. This was a comment on her part on the difference in the system? Russia from that in the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate any reaction to that?

Mrs. PAINE. She thought the system here produced much better goods, and she was pleased with that. She also commented that things were much more available in this country than they were in Russia. She was impressed, for instance, with the fact that my neighbor offered to loan things for the baby, and my friend Mrs. Craig offered to loan things for the baby. She said that in Russia people were not so sure that they could replace things that they had loaned or given away. You could not go to the store when you needed to have baby clothing and necessarily find it there. So there was much less--for that reason, and others--there was much less loaning and sharing of things than she found here.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the period when Lee was hospitalized in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall it.

Mr. JENNER. And her visiting him every day?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear recollection. I do, of course, recall her description of her own pregnancy, and the birth of June in the Minsk hospital. That Lee was in the hospital rings very faintly. I cannot think of anything he was in there for. I have completely forgotten any reference to it--I am not sure I remember now.

Mr. JENNER. Have we exhausted you on that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. I am exhausted.

Mr. JENNER. What is your reaction on the subject of Marina's reaction in turn to her husband? Did she love him? What was her opinion of him?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think it has already appeared pretty thoroughly in my testimony that she both asked herself did she love him and did he love her, and proceeded with the feeling that she had committed herself to this, and would try to do her best for the marriage--not without occasionally wondering whether this marriage would last, or should.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion or reaction on this subject--as to whether she had perhaps at times contributed to some degree or had been at fault to some degree in provoking what outbursts there were on Lee's part and his sometimes crudeness and abruptness with respect to her?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I think I have testified, she didn't try, or certainly did not try all the time, to avoid a confrontation or an argument or disagreement. But she did argue with him and uphold her own views, rather more forcefully, at least in her skill in the language, than Lee, on some occasions. I would say that if he had been a more relaxed and easy-going person, somebody that was not so touchy, that her behavior would not have been any difficulty to the marriage. Rather it was a healthy thing.

Mr. JENNER. There is an opinion at large, at least among some of us here in the United States who have pursued Russian literature and published works on the Russian people and the Russian character, that there is a tendency or an element on the part of the Russian to exaggerate and to present the bizzare. Do you have any feeling or opinion on that subject with respect to Marina Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I do think that there is such a thing as a personality formed by the Russian background, and it is a different influence, but also operating, the Soviet system. But it is hard for me to describe what that is. And I would not have included the statement you just made of attempting to exaggerate or bizzare--is that the way you put it?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Rather I would say it is a moodiness and a quality of enigma. Not the open-faced, glad-handed Texan or frontier American, but much more subtle. And I also do think that there is much more tendencies to--among Russian emigrés to suspect underlying motives, and things going on beneath the surface that are not evident on the face of the situation, a tendency among them more than among Americans.

Mr. JENNER. Do you find in Marina any of these tendencies you now relate?

Mrs. PAINE. I find her moody. I would say she was contrary to this that I have described, of some Russian people, of a quality of suspecting things going on under the surface.

I found this quality rather in the head of the Russian school at Middlebury, who picked up my tape recorder and took it to his office one time when I had left it in the hall. He evidently thought I had bad use intended for it.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say that--give us your opinion as to Marina's sense of the truth, of telling the truth, having a feeling of the truth?

Mrs. PAINE. That is difficult to say, because what questions I have about her telling of the truth have all arisen since I was with her personally.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I wish your opinion now, as of this time.

Mrs. PAINE. You wish my opinion now?

It is my opinion that this sense of privacy that I have described interferes with her being absolutely frank about the situation, and that she may, because of this lack of frankness, describe a situation in a way that is misleading, not directly false--but misleads the hearer. And this, I would say, not always in conscious design, but some of it happening quite without preplanned intent. I conclude that from the fact that I think she must have known that Lee had been to Mexico, judging from the materials I have already described were picked up by Mr. Odum and myself from the dresser drawer.

Mr. JENNER. From that, you conclude what?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, that she was willing to mislead by implication. And I would judge that she knew about the application for a passport, and this was never mentioned. All the times that she mentioned that she might have to go back to Russia, the implication was that she alone was going back. And this doesn't appear to have been fully the case.

Mr. JENNER. What leads you to say that--it wasn't fully the case in what sense?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, in the sense that Lee had at least applied for a passport to get him to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. You are rationalizing from the fact that you know now that he applied for a passport?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You conclude from that that she must have known of that application and the fact that he received it?

Mrs. PAINE. And, of course, that is rationalization.

Mr. JENNER. That is the only basis on which you make that statement? That is what I am getting at.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think that is all.

Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to whether Marina Oswald would tell the truth and the whole truth under oath in response to questions put to her?

Mrs. PAINE. I would expect that she would make a dedicated attempt to tell the truth. Just looking at the amount of time I have testified, as opposed to the amount of time she testified, relative to the amount of things she knows and the amount of material that I have that is of any use to the Commission, she could not have yet told the whole truth, just in terms of time.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that may be affected--of course, you must understand--by the questions put to her and the subjects that were opened on her examination.

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. But subject to that, it is your feeling that she--there is a----

Mrs. PAINE. Subject to that, I really cannot answer. I don't know what her attitude is towards her situation, which is a rather remarkable one in this case. I would guess that it is helpful to her telling the whole truth that Lee is now dead. I might say I am affected in that judgment by having been present when she could not positively identify her husband's--what was thought to be his rifle at the police station, whereas I read--and perhaps it is not so--but I read that she positively identified it here at the Commission.

Mr. JENNER. But you were present when she, in your presence, was unable to identify with reasonable certainty that the weapon exhibited to her was her husband's rifle?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you attribute that largely to the fact that his now being deceased has in her mind released her, so that she may without fear of implicating him, were he alive, to speak fully her opinions on subjects such as that?

Mrs. PAINE. That would be my opinion.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Did she ever express any fear of Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she never did.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever express to you any fear that he might do something, and I use the vernacular again, crazy?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I think we have covered this, but to be sure, did she ever mention to you that Lee had anything to do with the Walker incident?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. That she suspected it?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely nothing.

Mr. JENNER. Now, since you are now aware of what has come out with respect to that, does that also affect your opinion as to her sense of truth or sense of frankness?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, it affects my opinion on how close we were as friends. I never asked her to be frank or discuss such a subject, of course, because I would not have known to bring it up. Not telling me about something is quite different from telling me something that is misleading to the whole truth of the situation.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, are you seeking to imply that her failure to mention the General Walker incident and Lee Harvey Oswald part in it, if he had any part, that that was understandable to you--that would be understandable as of that time, having in mind your relations with her?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not understandable to me. I feel it is only explained--the only explanation I can find, when I look for one, is that she did not feel terribly close to me, or did not know just what I would do with such information. She may well have suspected that I would feel it necessary to take immediate action, and I would have felt that necessary if I had known this. She may have felt that Lee would not make such an attempt again, and that there was therefore no need to bring it up. I don't know whether your accounts of what the FBI has put down of their conversations with me include one meeting with Bardwell Odum, right after the newspapers had indicated something of a shot at Walker, before there was any corroborative details, such as the content of a note.

I was very depressed by the feeling that here--not to me, but to someone, this man had shown that he was violent and dangerous, and the information had been so close to me and not available to me--and I deeply regretted that I had had no warning of this quality in him.

And I further went on to say that I felt that it was a moral failing on her part not to speak to someone about this, because I thought she would surely realize that this was an irrational and extremely dangerous act on his part--that he needed help and/or confinement.

Mr. JENNER. What is your personal attitude towards the Castro regime?

Mrs. PAINE. I have very few opinions about it. I suspect that the press is correct, that it is used as a jumping off ground for people, for Communist deputies going to Central American countries, trying to stir up trouble. That I object to strenuously. That the people of Cuba had Castro as a leader is not of any particular offense to me. I do think that he has rather more popular support than his predecessor.

Mr. JENNER. Batista?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes--which is not saying a great deal.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I think Representative Ford might have had more in mind as to whether you share or do not share or have an aversion to what you understand to be the Castro regime.

Mrs. PAINE. I think the regime is clearly dictatorial, that it seeks to perpetuate itself, and to do so at all costs; and that I certainly object to.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you consider the Castro regime as you understand it, that it is liberal or reactionary?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know as I can put a term on it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any thoughts and assumptions on your part as to what Lee Oswald was doing after Marina returned with you from New Orleans? You have already testified that you thought from what he said about seeking employment in Houston and Philadelphia that he was engaged in that immediately following period in attempting to secure employment in Houston.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the extent of your impression as to that period--that is the period from the time you left on the 23d of September and the time he showed up without advance notice on the 4th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. It was my impression that he had been looking for work.

Mr. JENNER. And you had no other impression?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. During the period that Marina lived with you, did you ordinarily arise at an early or a late hour? When did you ordinarily arise?

Mrs. PAINE. Are you asking did I arise earlier than she?

Mr. JENNER. No. I am asking when you did. Then I will ask you when she did.

Mrs. PAINE. I usually got up around 7:30 or 8.

Mr. JENNER. When did she arise?

Mrs. PAINE. A similar time. When the babies permitted, she would sleep a little later. She changed her schedule to fit ours rather more than her schedule would have been if it had been just the way she had done in her own apartment.

Mr. JENNER. In her own apartment you think she would have arisen later or earlier?

Mrs. PAINE. She would have arisen later and let the baby, June, stay up later, and therefore be able to sleep later in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. PAINE. But while she was at my home, she endeavored to fit herself into the sleeping schedule of myself and my children.

Mr. JENNER. Have you told us about your knowledge of any and all correspondence that she received at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I have. The only thing that I recall is that she got a letter from a girl friend, Galya.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever show you any correspondence she received?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. This has been covered. I don't know if it has been covered in the thrust that Representative Ford has in mind.

Do you believe that Marina had any Communist sympathies when she reached this country, and if so, what is your belief as to whether she retained them after living in this country?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not believe she had Communist leanings when she arrived.

Mr. JENNER. And is it your belief that she is of the same viewpoint now?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all of the activities about which you know anything in which Lee Oswald and you or you and your husband or Lee and Marina and you and your husband took part?

Mrs. PAINE. Let's see if I understand you. All the activities in which my husband and/or I were with any of the Oswalds?

Mr. JENNER. Either of the Oswalds, together or separately.

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, you have a full account.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attend any meetings together--that is either you and Lee on the one hand, or you and Marina on the other, or you and Marina and Lee together?

Mrs. PAINE. There is just the one of my husband and Lee at the Civil Liberties Union meeting.

Mr. JENNER. Have you named all of the friends and associates or even acquaintances that you had in common with the Oswalds or either of them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you really have any common interest?

Mrs. PAINE. With Marina?

Mr. JENNER. Well, any common interest with Lee--did you have any?

Mrs. PAINE. No; not really.

Mr. JENNER. And any activities with him?

Mrs. PAINE. Car driving teaching.

Mr. JENNER. That's about all?

Mrs. PAINE. That's it.

Mr. JENNER. And the same question as to Marina. Have you told us everything--I will put it this way. Have you told us everything about any common or concerted action or interest between yourself on the one hand and Marina on the other?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I of course had a great deal of common interest in children. I think she read to me from a book on child care in Russian that she had--or perhaps I have not said that. Do you recall?

Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not too sure. I think you have intimated it.

Mrs. PAINE. And we discussed child raising, care, diet, all the things that come up in connection with children.

Mr. JENNER. But you had no common--you had no community activities with either of them, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. No--that's right. You mean which took us to a group with other people?

Mr. JENNER. Other groups, civic activities generally.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or women's clubs or meetings of that character. She occasionally accompanied you on your visits to Mrs. Roberts, I assume.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But there was no plan or direction to those activities.

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything you know about Lee's income and sources of funds?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when you had a conversation with Marina--it would have to be on the 23d of November--about the blanket package and the gun in the package?

Mrs. PAINE. On the 23d?

Mr. JENNER. Did you have one--I will put it this way. Did you have any conversation with her on that subject, other than the one you have related that occurred in the presence of the police officers in your home on the 22d of November, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. None that I recall; nor the day following, either.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the only time that you ever had a conversation with Marina dealing with the presence of a firearm in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. That is the only thing I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Or Lee Oswald's ownership of a firearm?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; the only time.

Mr. JENNER. Or use of it.

I take it from the answers you have given to my long line of questioning that you never detected or saw Lee Oswald doing any dry firing or dry sighting of a rifle in Irving, Tex. in or about your home or premises.

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. That concludes the questions Representative Ford had in mind.

I will look through the tag end of these notes and I think we have reached the end.

You have no diary of events during the time of your contact with the Oswalds other than the calendar diary which we have now introduced in evidence.

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. And you never kept any?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In connection with his seeking work in Houston, Tex., in the course of that conversation with you girls in New Orleans, when he made the statements you have related about seeking employment in Houston, was there anything said by him as to having any acquaintances or friends in Houston?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe I have already answered that--that he said he had a friend in Houston, and that I was not sure whether that was so or not.

Mr. JENNER. He did not identify the friend?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I was curious, though, about that.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any connections or friends in Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. But he did mention the possibility of seeking employment in Philadelphia.

Mrs. PAINE. He mentioned Philadelphia as a possibility that he might go and look.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a long-distance call received by Marina while she was at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. There was a call which I have related from Lee to her from New Orleans on May 9th.

Mr. JENNER. But you know of no other?

Mrs. PAINE. I cannot think of any other.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear anything by way of discussion or otherwise by Marina or Lee of the possibility of his having been tendered or at least suggested to him a job at Trans-Texas, as a cargo handler at $310 per month?

Mrs. PAINE. No; in Dallas?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall that. $310 a month?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. This was right at the time that he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mrs. PAINE. And he was definitely offered such a job?

Mr. JENNER. Well, I won't say it was offered--that he might have been able to secure a job through the Texas Employment Commission as a cargo handler at $310 per month.

Mrs. PAINE. I do recall some reference of that sort, which fell through--that there was not that possibility.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what you know about that. Did you hear of it at the time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please relate that to me?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall some reference to----

Mr. JENNER. How did it come about?

Mrs. PAINE. From Lee, as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. And was it at the time, or just right----

Mrs. PAINE. It was at the time, while he was yet unemployed.

Mr. JENNER. And about the time he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me he went into town with some hopes raised by the employment agency--whether a public or private employment agency I don't know--but then reported that the job had been filled and not available to him.

Mr. JENNER. But that was----

Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Of his report to you and Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you do recall his discussing it.

Mrs. PAINE. I recall something of that nature. I do not recall the job itself.

Mr. JENNER. I hand you a document, Mrs. Paine, marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469, entitled "Translation from Russian."

(The document referred to was marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 for identification.)

It appears to be a note from you addressed to "Dear Marina" signed "Ruth."

Having examined that document, is the note of which that purports to be a translation familiar to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is familiar to me.

Mr. JENNER. Did you prepare and transmit the original?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When did you do that?

Mrs. PAINE. That was some time after the assassination. This note accompanied a group of letters originally addressed to me, but which carried enclosures for Marina which I took to the Irving police and they transmitted to the Secret Service, and thence to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence as Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 the document that has been so marked. Would you look at that. Having examined that, may I ask you a question or two about it.

Has my questioning of you this morning and your testimony of today and previously, and your examination of various documents refreshed your recollection as to additional motivation, that is in addition to what you have already given, for your undertaking the study of the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, examination of that letter which I completely had forgotten.

Mr. JENNER. Having that----

Mrs. PAINE. It sounds like a very valid description----

Mr. JENNER. Having that to refresh your recollection, do you wish to add to your testimony as to your motivation in studying Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can explain two phrases I did not understand when you used them without the rest of the paragraph. It is a socially useful interest--and then I go on to say, "By this I mean I get a great deal of excitement out of talking with these young friends," and I mention some.

Mr. JENNER. And this is a document, a letter you wrote your mother, when?

Mrs. PAINE. This is written June 7, 1957, according to the date on it. I enjoyed the contact with these friends, and our common interest in Russian exchange.

Then also the reference to its being an intellectual decision--I am opposing intellectual decision to the initial leading or calling to study the language, which was not intellectual but a felt thing. Then the decision to study specifically Russian--as it says right here, "The decision to study Russian specifically is an intellectual decision" which came after the leading. That is something I thought out, that kind of intellectual--rather than a prompting from within.

Mr. JENNER. And when you use the expression--you Quakers use the expression that you have a leading--you mean a prompting from your--inner prompting.

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to confirm with you, if I can, Mrs. Paine--your recollection is that Lee Oswald had come home on the evening of November 8, and that it was the following day, the following morning, the 9th, that you took him, with Marina, to the driver's license application bureau.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And that it was some other weekend that he did not come on Friday, but came on Saturday morning.

Mrs. PAINE. I would think so.

Mr. JENNER. That that is your present recollection.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will support it by saying that he used my typewriter before he went to the driver training location.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you say you have a recollection of his having used your typewriter, you mean the evening before?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I mean the morning before. But that would have had to be fairly soon after breakfast.

Mr. JENNER. You mean in the morning before you left for the driver's license bureau, he used your typewriter?

Mrs. PAINE. It was the morning of the 9th, before we left for the driver training bureau. And I am just saying that if he had come in on Saturday, I doubt it would have been that early.

Mr. JENNER. I see. So that tends to confirm your own recollection that he had come to your home the night before as usual.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That he arose in the morning, and used your typewriter, and then you all departed for the driver's license bureau.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you take him to the parking lot for instruction on more than one occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. About how many?

Mrs. PAINE. There were at least two. I think probably just two. And add to that one occasion when we practiced only in front of the house, just parking. Three lessons altogether.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an English-language dictionary on your desk secretary at the time you found what I call the Mexico letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there was--a pocket dictionary.

Mr. JENNER. Was that an English-Russian, or just----

Mrs. PAINE. Just English.

Mr. JENNER. Was that your dictionary or was it his?

Mrs. PAINE. It was not mine.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any reason why--I will restate the question.

Do you have any inward feeling or any hunch or anything along those lines that Robert Oswald might have taken a dislike to you or to your husband?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no feeling of that sort.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing has occurred to lead you to have that feeling?

Mrs. PAINE. Except your question.

Mr. JENNER. Pardon?

Mrs. PAINE. Except your question.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, other than my question. That is the trouble with leading questions.

Do you recall whether at any time in your home Lee Oswald had viewed any movies of the assassination of--fictional assassination of a President or anyone holding high public office?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall at any time during the period he was in your home that you saw such a movie on television?

Mrs. PAINE. I know I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned yesterday, I believe it was, you recalled his looking at--late one evening--at a spy movie on television.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I think German World War II variety.

Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection that you did not ask Mrs. Randle to call the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my clear recollection.

Mr. JENNER. There was no refusal on the part of Mrs. Randle to do so. I am afraid it follows if you did not ask her, there was no refusal.

Mrs. PAINE. It certainly does.

Mr. JENNER. I am trying to awaken again your recollection of that incident.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, there is no recollection whatever.

Mr. JENNER. Of that sort of thing having occurred in the course of that discussion.

Mrs. PAINE. Of that sort of thing.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether or not Mrs. Randle, as a friendly gesture--her suggestions were friendly, were they not, in connection with his securing employment?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did she mention the Manner Bakery?

Mrs. PAINE. Possibly; yes. I do recall saying that Lee doesn't drive, making the point that this was a hampering thing for him. And, of course, therefore it made it impossible for him to drive a truck for the Manner Bakery.

Mr. JENNER. And in that connection, had she mentioned the Texas Gypsum Co.?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that.

Mr. JENNER. At least you do recall that it was impractical to consider possible positions which would require him to operate an automobile.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I believe I do recall a reference now to driving a truck, delivery truck.

Mr. JENNER. Harkening back to the meeting at Mr. Glover's apartment or home on the 22d of February 1963, do you recall whether Lee Oswald said anything about whether he was a Communist?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall him saying anything of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any attempt on his part to join the Communist Party while he was in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. I did not listen to everything he said that evening.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident in which there was a telephone call by Col. J. D. Wilmeth to your home, in which he spoke with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about that?

Mrs. PAINE. I would say this was a week or less before the assassination. He called and asked--he called from Arlington, Tex., which is between Fort Worth and Dallas, and asked if he could come over some time to----

Mr. JENNER. Would that be a nontoll call?

Mrs. PAINE. That was a toll call.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. To talk with Marina, that he had heard she was living at my house, and was interested in speaking with somebody who spoke natively.

Mr. JENNER. Did he speak with you on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are recounting, then, your conversation with him, and in turn his conversation with her, as she might have reported it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you completed all you wish to say about that incident?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Are you going to ask me if he came?

Mr. JENNER. I put the question as to what you wished to say. Have you completed your full recollection of the incident?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of the phone call. He then did come.

Mr. JENNER. And when did he come?

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that he asked to come--that he worked at Arlington State College on Tuesdays and Thursdays; that he called us on Tuesday and asked to come Thursday, and we said Thursday was not the best time, and he--and we agreed upon the following Tuesday.

My best judgment is that he actually came then on the 19th of November.

Mr. JENNER. All right. And how long did he stay?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, perhaps an hour. And I cannot even recall exactly what time, except I think it was right in the middle of when we should have been making dinner.

Mr. JENNER. Did he visit with both you and Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.

Mr. JENNER. And were arrangements made for his return on another occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. I cannot recall that we made a specific date, but we certainly planned to get together again.

Mr. JENNER. And was this strictly a social call?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. An interest in the language motivated his coming. He is a teacher of Russian at Arlington State College.

Mr. JENNER. Let's see. Lee Oswald was not home on that occasion.

Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not.

Mr. JENNER. I mean he was not in Irving on that occasion.

Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I have only one more question.

Do you wish to add anything, or has anything occurred to you which you have not up to this moment testified to with respect to the Oswald incident and this great tragedy which my questions and the questions of the members of the Commission have not heretofore elicited, and which you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, you have not yet asked me if I had seen anything of a note purported to be written by Lee at the time of the attempt on Walker. And I might just recount for you that, if it is of any importance.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I wish you would--how that occurred. Tell me all you know about it--all you knew about it up to and including November 22.

Mrs. PAINE. I knew absolutely nothing about it up to and including November 22.

Mr. JENNER. Is there any explanation or anything that you feel you ought to say or wish to say about that incident?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, just that I was shown a portion of a note by two Secret Service men.

Mr. JENNER. This was after November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. It certainly was. Perhaps a week later. I had sent Marina one of these small collections of letters, such as I have described, that includes notes to her and donations, and left such with the Irving police. And on one occasion left also a couple of books which were hers. I referred to the fact that she read to me from a child care book. One of these was a book from which she had been recently reading to me, and she used it much as I had used Benjamin Spock's "Baby and Child Care" when my babies were small--that is constant daily reference. And I thought she would want to have it with her.

I believe it was probably the next day I got a call from the Secret Service saying something important had come up in this case, could they come out and see me. I said yes, of course. They arrived. Mr. Gopadze, of the Secret Service, who was acting as translator, and I think the other man's name was Patterson, and he spoke English only--Mr. Gopadze showed me a piece of paper with writing on it, a small piece of paper such as might come from a telephone note pad. He asked me not to read it through carefully, but simply to look at it enough to tell whether I could identify the handwriting and whether I had ever seen it before. I said I could not identify the handwriting. I observed that it was written in Russian, that the second word was a transliteration from the English word--that it said "This key"--using the word "key" rather than the Russian word--and went on to say it was for a post office box. And that is as far as I read. And Mr. Gopadze indicated that it was his impression that I had sent this note to Marina. And this surprised me. And I said----

Mr. JENNER. That is a masterpiece of understatement, isn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it certainly is. It astounded me. I said that--I repeated that I had not seen it and did not know how I might possibly have sent this to Marina Oswald. I asked if he thought the note was current, and he did not say.

We went on for some time with Mr. Gopadze--this in Russian--saying that "Mrs. Paine, it would be well for you to be absolutely frank and tell us exactly what happened" and my saying in turn to Mr. Gopadze, "I am. What more can I do than what I have said." And finally we went over to English and included Mr. Patterson in the conversation, and he volunteered this note had been in a book. Then I realized what must have happened is that I did send Marina Oswald a book, and described my having sent this to the Irving police and the Secret Service. And that seemed to clear up the mystery for all of us. And they left.

Then I don't recall whether this first reference to General Walker having been shot at was before or after this incident, but I am certain I made no connection between the two. It was not until it was reported by the Houston Chronicle that there was a note written by Lee Oswald at the time of the attempt on Walker's life, and they also reported some of the content of that note and included a reference to a post office box, that I made a connection to the note that had been shown me by Mr. Gopadze.

I bring this up because I was irritated by Mr. John Thorne's statement to me that he thought that I was probably the one to have given the Houston Chronicle information about this note. I was sufficiently irritated that I called the Houston Chronicle and spoke to the executive editor, asked if he could tell me who had given them this information. He said no, he could not. I said that I was curious, because someone had thought that I had. He said, "We can certainly tell anyone that you did not." But I don't think Mr. Thorne was interested enough to have made such a call himself.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall doing some shopping on the morning of the 9th after you had gone to the driver's license bureau and found it closed?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, we shopped at a dime store immediately adjacent, or in the same shopping center as the driver's license bureau.

Mr. JENNER. And some few small articles were purchased?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you arrived home when--about noon?

Mrs. PAINE. For a late lunch, I would say. I might say Lee was as gay as I have ever seen him in the car riding back to the house. He sang, he joked, he made puns, or he made up songs mutilating the Russian language, which tickled and pained Marina, both at once.

Mr. JENNER. What did he do that afternoon, if you recall?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did he look at television?

Mrs. PAINE. My guess is that he certainly looked at television.

Mr. JENNER. Did you leave your home late that afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. I went to vote. This would be a trip of perhaps 20 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. And he was at home when you left? And was he at home when you returned?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, at any time during that morning drive did you by any chance stop by a car dealers?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Either going to or from the driver's license bureau?

Mrs. PAINE. No, we did not stop at a car dealers.

Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to whether Lee Oswald could have been at the Lincoln-Mercury dealership in downtown Dallas on that day?

Mrs. PAINE. I think he could not have been.

Mr. JENNER. Was he out of your sight other than the period of time it took you to go to the polls to vote that day?

Mrs. PAINE. It is entirely possible that I made a short trip to the grocery store in the afternoon. But I would say he was not out of my sight for any length of time.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, you were conscious of his being in your home or within your general presence all day.

Mrs. PAINE. The entire day. Shall I give what recollections I have for activities of the 10th?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, please.

Mrs. PAINE. It is my best recollection that this lesson in parking to which I have referred occurred on the 10th, late in the afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. That is Sunday afternoon?