Chapter XXXI: Part 31

Mr. JENNER. State your name, please?

Agent HOWLETT. John Joe Howlett.

Mr. JENNER. And you are a member of the Secret Service of the United States?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; special agent.

Mr. JENNER. In the Dallas office?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you accompanied Miss Oliver and myself this evening, brought us out to Mrs. Paine's home?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you have been present throughout my examination of Mrs. Paine and my examination of the premises, and you have assisted me, have you not?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In making measurements and also in recounting the appearance of rooms, front lawn, garage, and otherwise?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In all those measurements that you made and reported to the reporter, were they as accurately made as you could make them under the conditions?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you report, orally, truthfully, and accurately the various measurements that are now recorded in this record?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And were you present during the time that I also called figures or ordered descriptions?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And were the figures I called and the descriptions I made, to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, accurate?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And made in your presence?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Agent HOWLETT. There is one thing on there--on the window.

Mr. JENNER. Which window?

Agent HOWLETT. The window in the southeast bedroom.

Mr. JENNER. Yes--that's Marina's bedroom, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. She was staying in there--yes.

Agent HOWLETT. I believe I previously reported that as 3 feet 3 inches, and I think it should have been 3 feet 8 inches.

Mr. JENNER. High or wide?

Agent HOWLETT. Wide--would you like for me to check it?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; you might check it.

Mrs. PAINE. It's probably 3 feet 6 inches--it's identical to the shade we have just measured.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and the witness, Mrs. Paine.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record for Mrs. Paine's testimony.

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

Mrs. Paine has now produced and has in front of her as she is seated here at the table, some documents--what are they, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. I have here translations of seven of the letters, and they are the seven most recent letters that I have sent to Marina Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Since November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. Since November 22.

Mr. JENNER. They consist of one, two, three, four, five, six, seven pages?

Mrs. PAINE. Each letter is complete on one page.

Mr. JENNER. And I will now mark that seven-page document as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277," for identification.)

Mrs. PAINE. And, I would like to describe what little correspondence between November 22 and the first date here--December 27.

Mr. JENNER. Would you forgive me if I asked you a few more questions about the exhibit first?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; I'm sorry.

Mr. JENNER. "Ruth Paine Exhibit 277" consists of seven pages of translations prepared by you?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Of the letters that you prepared, the originals of which you transmitted or delivered?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. You transmitted by mail or delivered by hand or some other fashion to Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Well----

Mr. JENNER. Or sought to have delivered to her--should I put it that way?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And do you note throughout this material the means or method by which you sought to draw these letters to her attention?

Mrs. PAINE. Each one says how it was sent--yes.

Mr. JENNER. And when did you make the transcripts that now appear as Ruth Paine Exhibit 277, by transcript I mean translations.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes--the first three letters here, I have a note at the top indicating when the translation was made.

Mr. JENNER. When were they made with relation to when the originals were dispatched?

Mrs. PAINE. The first three translations were made later.

Mr. JENNER. How much later?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, depending--the translations were all made on January 26. The first three letters were written respectively, December 27, December 28 and January 3.

Mr. JENNER. And from what did you make the translation?

Mrs. PAINE. From my notes in Russian of the original letter which I cannot now find.

Mr. JENNER. You prepared a first draft and then after you had prepared the first draft and gone over it to make sure it recited what you wished, you then wrote the final answer?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right--in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. In Russian and dispatched it?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And they are pages 4 through 7, correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right--the other translations were all made at the time indicated on the page, which was also the time the letter was written and sent.

Mr. JENNER. Now, have you in the last day or two at my request reviewed carefully the translations which now compose this Ruth Paine Exhibit 277?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes I have.

Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, after that check are you now able to say whether those transcriptions are accurate and whether also the statements you make of descriptive character in connection therewith are also accurate and truthful?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe them to be fully accurate.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you had another sheaf of papers when you produced Exhibit 277--what are those papers?

Mrs. PAINE. I have a few scratch notes which tell what correspondence there was between November 22 and the first date of this exhibit, which was December 27.

Mr. JENNER. Refreshing your recollection from those notes, tell me if you can what correspondence there was prior to the first letter, which appears as December 27, in Ruth Paine Exhibit 277?

Mrs. PAINE. There were two or three short notes written by myself to Marina Oswald and sent to her along with a small stack of letters and checks which had come addressed to me, but really for her. I sent these via the Irving Police to Secret Service. I have no copies of these, but I have seen one in translation, I believe it to have been the second one that I wrote, among the Commission papers that were shown to me in Washington.

There was a note and Christmas card sent to me by Marina and postmarked December 21. Then, there was also a note and Christmas card sent by me to Marina on the same date, December 21.

Mr. JENNER. Did you send that before or after you received her card?

Mrs. PAINE. They crossed.

Mr. JENNER. Are you able to translate now for the record the wording of the Christmas card or message received from Marina by you?

Mrs. PAINE. I would rather have a few minutes with it before doing it for the record. I have not done it in advance because time didn't serve. I do want here to try to describe what I recall as the content of my note, which I have no copy of that.

Mr. JENNER. Notes that are in your hand, are they in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. These, no; this is descriptive of what I sent and the situation surrounding the note I sent to her on December 21, and as I say, I have no copy of that note. I included a Christmas greeting from myself and my children and expressed my concern for her and said I didn't want to bother her, but I did want to see her.

Mr. JENNER. To the extent you can recite it literally, do so, please.

Mrs. PAINE. I can't--I handed this note to Mr. Martin in his home.

Mr. JENNER. Is this the note you had in mind when you testified last week before the Commission that you had gone to his home and delivered something to him?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Along with some other letters that had come containing contributions from kindhearted Americans which had been sent to Marina and arrived at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right. I talked with Mr. Martin and after having talked with him I added something to my note, saying that I had talked with him and that it had relieved my mind somewhat about her. I also brought that same day an opened package containing wrapped Christmas gifts which had come to my home addressed to me from a lady who had previously written to inquire what kind of gifts might be appropriate for Marina's children. When I opened the package, though the outside had been addressed to me, the inside was labeled, "Rachel" and "Junie", and clearly Christmas gifts for Marina and the two children. I also brought a small box of Christmas cookies for the Martin family.

Mr. JENNER. As gifts from you and your children to the Martin family?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right; that's correct.

Agent HOWLETT. I remeasured that window at the southeast corner of the house--the first bedroom--the one which Marina was in, and that picture window is correctly 3 feet 7 inches wide.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we will go off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record.

Mrs. Paine, you recall that last week in testifying before the Commission, you referred to an incident in which you drove into Dallas with Lee Oswald accompanying you, for the purpose of having a key on your typewriter repaired?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And what date was that that you drove into Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that we drove in on October 14, Monday.

Mr. JENNER. Have you, since your return to Irving from Washington, found something in your home that helps refresh your recollection about that incident?

Mrs. PAINE. I looked up the check stubs to see what date I wrote the Weaver Office Machines Co. a check to pay for that typewriter key repair. The check was written when we went to pick up the machine.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you said "we." Did Lee Oswald accompany you on that occasion as well?

Mrs. PAINE. No, he did not; just Marina and myself and our children went in, and the check stub is dated October 18.

Mr. JENNER. And does that refresh your recollection as to the date when you picked up the typewriter?

Mrs. PAINE. That is, of course, the date I picked up the typewriter, and it is my best judgment that it was therefore the preceding Monday that I took the typewriter in.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the occasion again to--why you had the typewriter repaired as of that time?

Mrs. PAINE. The original key was incorrect--I had it replaced.

Mr. JENNER. Incorrect in what sense--it had an incorrect Russian symbol--Russian language symbol?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And you wanted to replace it for what reason--did Lee Oswald desire to use it or were you using it or what were the circumstances?

Mrs. PAINE. I was using the typewriter in preparation for teaching Russian to one student.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else about that incident that you would like to add to the record.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, I can think of no additional questions at the moment.

Is there anything that has occurred to you in the meantime that is, since you were in Washington, to which you would like to draw my attention and the attention of the Commission as possibly having a bearing on the Commission's investigation, the nature of which you have been heretofore advised?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. There is nothing?

Mrs. PAINE. This is rather an aside, I would think.

Mr. JENNER. All right, let's go off the record a minute.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. We go back on the record.

In gifts received by you since November 22, 1963, at your home, that is, gifts to Marina, did some of those gifts come in the form of cash as distinguished from check or money orders?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, some of them did. I regret that most of those that came as cash came early and I simply sent them on to Secret Service as cash. After--about the end of 1963 I began to wonder, since I had not heard directly from Marina, whether she was getting these, and I therefore decided to send any such contributions that came to me as cash on to her as checks drawn on my bank account.

Mr. JENNER. Had you talked with John Thorne, or Jim Martin in advance of delivering those checks--"yes" or "no"?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us the circumstances?

Mrs. PAINE. I asked John Thorne----

Mr. JENNER. By telephone or direct inquiry face to face?

Mrs. PAINE. In person, at his office, whether Marina Oswald was signing, and by this I meant--endorsing her own checks and his reply to me was that everything she can do herself she is doing. From this I assumed she could sign her name. I left a letter which enclosed such a check written by me to her.

Mr. JENNER. You left with whom? With John Thorne or with Mr. Martin?

Mrs. PAINE. It does look as if I had left it--let's see--given to the hand of John Thorne.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you have now turned to the second page of Ruth Paine Exhibit 277 and you are pointing to a footnote at the bottom of that page, are you not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the reference there to this letter is to the letter which appears on that page?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And do I take it from the footnote that accompanying that letter transcribed in the second page of Ruth Paine Exhibit 277, accompanying it was a check?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right, enclosed in the stamped and sealed envelope.

Mr. JENNER. And the check is the instrument you now hand me, dated December 28, 1963, check number 205 in the sum of $10, payable to Marina Oswald, which we will mark as Ruth Paine Exhibit 277-A.

(Exhibit marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-A, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. On the reverse side of that there appears in longhand as an endorsement and the name "Marina Oswald." Do you see it?

Mrs. PAINE. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Marina Oswald's signature?

Mrs. PAINE. I am.

Mr. JENNER. Looking at the endorsement on the reverse side of Exhibit 277-A, in your opinion is or is not that Marina Oswald's signature?

Mrs. PAINE. That is not Marina Oswald's official hand.

Mr. JENNER. Did you repeat that process on some subsequent occasions of remitting cash gifts by check?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did.

Mr. JENNER. And you have now handed me another instrument which purports to be and which is a check.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On the Southwest Bank and Trust Co., and what is the other document No. 277-A, this one, which is dated January 8, 1964, and it is the sum of $5 and it is check No. 216.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It is also payable to Marina Oswald; is that your check?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is.

Mr. JENNER. We will mark it as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Referring to Exhibit 277-A and 277-B, does your signature appears as the maker of each of those checks?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.

Mr. JENNER. And you recall distinctly that you did make them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. And these are the cancelled checks that are returned to you by your bank, Southwest Bank & Trust Co.?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Referring to Exhibit No. 277-A and turning it over, is there an endorsement on the reverse side?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize that endorsement?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Is it in longhand?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. In whose hand?

Mrs. PAINE. That is in Marina Oswald's hand.

Mr. JENNER. And it reads "Marina Oswald," does it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Each of these checks also bears the stamped endorsement "For deposit only, to Oswald Trust Fund," is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right--that should be said.

Mr. JENNER. And are these instruments now in the same condition when they were returned to you, by your bank?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.

Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, I hand you the check No. 205 dated December 28, 1963, please mark it Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-A. And mark check No. 216, dated January 8, 1964, as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B.

(Instruments marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibits Nos. 277-A and 277-B.)

Mr. JENNER. May I have your permission, please Mrs. Paine, to retain these two exhibits and as soon as I have photostated them with all of the other originals of documents that you produced last week, I want to return them all to you at once.

Mrs. PAINE. All right.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else, now, that occurs to you?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else that is pertinent which you think might be helpful to the Commission in this investigation?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. We have been on and off the record during the course of this session, Mrs. Paine, in which I have had some conversation with you. Is there anything that occurred during those off-the-record sessions which you regard as pertinent which I have not brought out?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred in those off-the-record sessions which in your opinion is inconsistent with anything that has been stated and testified in the record by you or stated into the record by Mr. Howlett or by me?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record now, please. Facing north, in the rear of the Paine home, the rear door leading from the kitchen-dining room area out onto the yard in the rear, there is a large pleasant, completely open yard with grass. The plot is surrounded by a cyclone fence 5 feet high with a gate so that children playing, small children playing in the yard are completely protected and prevented from getting out. That yard area, measuring from the north wall of the home to the rear fence is 80 feet, 6 inches and in width, measuring east to west, the yard from cyclone fence to cyclone fence is 51 feet. There is a clothesline that traverses from east to west in the yard and the clothesline itself, the poles, which are parallel to the east-west line of the house and east-west fence in the rear is 19-1/2 feet south of the rear fence. There are two large shade trees, both oaks, the one at the easterly line near the easterly fence is 7 feet, 9 inches in circumference. There is one almost opposite on the west, which is much smaller, and is about--not quite a foot thick.

The tree in the front of the house which we have described earlier has a circumference of 6 feet, 3 inches, and the circumferences we have recited in the record were measured at 3 feet from the ground.

Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 6 feet on the tree in the front, 3 feet from the ground.

Mr. JENNER. I see--I recited it 3 inches and that was in error.

Agent HOWLETT. It should be 6 feet, measured 3 feet from the ground.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, have you translated the note which appears on the inside of the Christmas card from Marina, about which you have testified this evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. It appears on the left inside portion, does it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Of the Christmas card and having interpreted or translated it would you read the translation into the record?

Mrs. PAINE. The translation says:

"DEAR RUTH:

Sends here greetings to you, Micheal and the children and
wishes for a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. I am very
sorry that our friendship ended so unfortunately but it was not
my fault. I hope that the new year will bring us all better
changes. I wish you health, fortune, happiness and all of the
very best. A great big thank you for all the fine things you
did for me.

Sincerely,
MARINA.

P.S.--Write if you feel like it, please. Greetings from little
June. I kiss you, Marina."

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mrs. Paine.

Now, you have handed me a Christmas card, the cover page of which reads, "Wishing you the best," and there is an insignia on the front of it. I have already referred to the inside cover page, which you now have interpreted for us, and directing your attention to that writing which appears to be in red ink, are you familiar with the writing?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Whose writing is it?

Mrs. PAINE. It is Marina Oswald's writing.

Mr. JENNER. You also handed me an envelope which is postmarked at Dallas on December 21, 1963, and there appears to be some handwriting on that. Are you familiar with that handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Whose is that?

Mrs. PAINE. It is Marina Oswald's handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. Here again as in the case of other envelopes, the envelope itself--everything appearing on the face of the envelope is in English?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Whereas, the note on the inside is in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And this is as you testified--she was able to write English to the extent of addressing letters, cards, and envelopes?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, would you now mark the two exhibits I now hand you as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 278, the card, and 278-A, the envelope?

(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 278 and 278-A, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is the card in the same condition now as it was except for the reporter's identification, when you received it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And was Ruth Paine Exhibit 278, the card enclosed in the envelope which has been identified as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 278-A?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was so enclosed.

Mr. JENNER. And except for having slit the envelope to remove its contents, is the envelope in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And may we, as in the case of the other exhibits, retain the original and when I have photostated it we will return them to you?

Mrs. PAINE. That is fine.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence all of the exhibits which have been identified this evening.

Is there anything at all which has occurred to you that you desire to add, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. I can think of nothing else at this point.

Mr. JENNER. I do want to ask you this--while you were translating the Christmas card message, Mr. Howlett and I measured--we went out in your back yard area, which is large and open, and we measured it and I recited the measurements in the record and the location of your large beautiful shade trees. I noted that there traverses from east to west your yard in the rear a clothesline.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And I measured that as being located at 19-1/2 feet south of the back porch--of the back fence?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the clothesline to which you made reference when you testified last week in Washington as to where Marina was on the midafternoon or early afternoon of November 22 when you went out to advise her that you had heard over the radio the name "Lee Oswald" in connection with events that day?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not that that I heard. I heard that a shot had been fired from the School Book Depository Building and this is what I told her.

Mr. JENNER. And is that clothesline and those posts which support the clothesline and from which the line is stretched across the yard in the same position now as those posts were on that day?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.

Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't remember whether as part of my testimony describing the evening of November 22, I said that Marina told me that when I reported to her the situation at the clothesline that the TV had announced that the shots which hit the President were fired from the School Book Depository. She recalled that to me in the evening and told me when I had told her this, her heart went to the bottom. I don't recall whether I included that, but I remember that during the Commission hearings--I have recalled it since.

Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to page 49 of the document entitled "Affidavits and Statements Taken in Connection With the Assassination of the President," to which we have heretofore made reference when I asked you to examine a list of documents and books and records and papers and pamphlets. Directing your attention to page 49--is that an affidavit or a signed statement that you furnished the Dallas city police?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is.

Mr. JENNER. And is that the statement to which you had reference in your testimony before the Commission that you gave on the evening of November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. The 22d, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Under examination by an officer of the Dallas city police?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Will you read it through and see if it serves to refresh your recollection, read it to yourself, and see if it serves to refresh your recollection as to anything you might not have included in your testimony last week as to what occurred during the course of the interview of the Dallas city police with you?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall most of that content but that surely was it--I was under a good deal of stress at the time.

"AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT

THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS

BEFORE ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said
county, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Ruth
Hyde Paine/w/f/31, 2515 W. Fifth Street, Irving, Texas. Who,
after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: I have
lived at the above address for about 4 years. My husband,
Michael and I had been separated for about a year. IN the
early winter of 1963, I went to a party in Dallas because I
heard that some people would be there that spoke Russian. I
was interested in the language. At that party I met Lee Oswald
and his Russian wife Marina. About a month later I went to
visit them on Neely Street. In May I asked her to stay with me
because Lee went to New Orleans to look for work. About two
weeks later I took Marina to New Orleans to join her husband.
Around the end of September I stopped by to see them while I
was on vacation. I brought Marina back with me to Irving. He
came in 2 weeks, later, but did not stay with his wife and me.
Marina's husband would come and spend most of the weekends with
his wife. Through my neighbor, we heard there was an opening at
the Texas School Book Depository. Lee applied and was accepted.
Lee did not spend last weekend there. He came in about 5 pm
yesterday and spent the night. I was asleep this morning when
he left for work.

(S) RUTH HYDE PAINE."

Mr. JENNER. Now, I direct your attention to page 46. There appears to be a signature of Mrs. Marina Oswald on that page. You are familiar with her signature?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I am.

Mr. JENNER. Is that her signature?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is her signature.

Mr. JENNER. Will you read the statement and see if it serves to refresh your recollection or stimulate some other recollection as to what occurred that evening or at any other time, to which you have not already testified.

Mrs. PAINE. (Read instrument referred to.)

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have now read what purports to be a statement taken from Marina Oswald on the night of November 22 at the Dallas City Police Station?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On that occasion did you interpret or translate for Marina Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present when she was examined?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.

Mr. JENNER. And now, having examined the statement transcribed on page 46, to the best of your recollection, to the extent it summarizes what was said, is it accurate?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I particularly remember the part of the testimony or the statement, sworn statement, that talks about the rifle, that she had known there had been a rifle in the garage and that it was not there on the 22d, that she could not positively say it was her husband's rifle when they showed her a rifle at the police station. This is what I particularly remember.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that she fixed the time when she had seen the blanket prior to November 22 as having been 2 weeks prior thereto?

Mrs. PAINE. She was indefinite, more so than the statement here.

Mr. JENNER. The statement reads, "I opened the blanket and saw a rifle in it."

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection of that is that she opened the blanket and saw a portion of what she judged to be a rifle, having known already that her husband had one.

Mr. JENNER. Did she identify the part she saw as the stock of the rifle?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall--that was all done by the police.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is there anything in addition that has occurred to you--however, Mr. Howlett has called my attention to something we thought we might ask you before we close.

Directing your attention to the bottom drawer of the secretary in the kitchen-dining area of the house, was Lee Oswald familiar with the contents of that drawer?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it appears in my testimony at Washington that to the best of my knowledge neither he nor Marina saw me use the contents of that drawer.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see either of them enter that drawer?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I think I am finished--is there anything you wish to add?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. It is now 10 minutes after 11 and we arrived here at 7:30 this evening. Mrs. Paine, again I express to you my personal appreciation of the length to which you have gone to be cooperative with me and with the Commission and with all of us undertaking this sometimes gruesome work.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I am glad to help.

Mr. JENNER. And you have been very helpful. Thank you.

Mrs. PAINE. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. This deposition will be transcribed. We will have it here in Dallas next week when I return. If you wish to read it, you may do so and you may call me at the United States attorney's office and it will be available to you to read. If the other transcript is ready, since I am officially authorized to have the same in my possession, I will do my best to bring one with me so that you may read your testimony of last week as well.

Mrs. PAINE. I would be very interested in that, thank you, and I could then sign this deposition.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; you could sign this and the deposition I took of you on Saturday of last week.

Mrs. PAINE. All right. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you again, and that is all.

TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE

The testimony of Michael R. Paine was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 17, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Wesley J. Liebeler and Norman Redlich, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PAINE. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have asked you to come here so we can take your deposition to find out some of the background information that you have about Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of your knowing him throughout part of 1963, up to the time of the assassination.

We particularly want to ask you this afternoon about your knowledge of the possible possession by Lee Harvey Oswald of the weapon that was allegedly used to assassinate the President, or of any other weapon at the time while he had some of his effects stored as we understand it in your garage in Texas.

I also want to inquire of you this afternoon concerning your knowledge of Lee Oswald's financial affairs, whether you have lent him any money or whether he ever, he or his wife ever, obtained any money through you or your wife, and we will also ask you about other matters relating to the general subject of the assassination and the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

I want to go first, Mr. Paine, to the period September of 1963, but before I do that, will you state your name for the record.

Mr. PAINE. Michael Paine.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. PAINE. 2515 West Fifth, Irving, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed?

Mr. PAINE. Bell Helicopter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where are they located?

Mr. PAINE. Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which that occurred?

Mr. PAINE. My wife invited Lee and his wife over to supper one evening.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us approximately when that was?

Mr. PAINE. I think it was in April.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1963?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I have depended upon my wife for all the dates. She has kept a calendar.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with your wife the, after the assassination the, approximate time when you first met the Oswalds?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, yes, we did. Or at least she had to report that to other people and I was listening in but I have forgotten the dates.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife meet the Oswalds at the same time?

Mr. PAINE. No; she met them at a party that was held at a friend's house and we were invited to, both of us were invited to, go meet this couple who were represented as he having been an American who had defected to Russia, and came back with a Russian wife. I think I was sick or something and for some reason I couldn't go so I didn't meet him at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was?

Mr. PAINE. It would be much more sensible to get all the exact dates from my wife but I think that was in February.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1963?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after you first met Oswald, and we will go into the conversation that you had with him when you met him and after that more in detail to him before the Commission, when was the next time that you met him?

Mr. PAINE. I don't think I met him again until he joined Marina at our house in September or the beginning of October, I guess it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances surrounding the second meeting with Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. Well, Ruth had invited Marina to come and have her baby early in the summer when she knew that she was pregnant, to come have her baby, if she wished, at our house, where she would have the help of another woman who could speak Russian. Ruth stopped by from her visit on the east coast, stopped on her way back to Texas, stopped in New Orleans to see them, and found that Lee was out of work again, and picked up Marina at that time and brought her back to Dallas which was the end of September, and Marina then and her child stayed there and had another child, and stayed there until the assassination. And about a week later Marina was there for about a week before Lee called up, and I guess Lee came out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when he came out?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember. I would come normally, I was not living at the house at the time, and I would normally appear on, regularly on, Fridays, and generally some other day in the week, I think it was a Wednesday, Tuesday or Wednesday, for supper.

So I would have seen him if it was a Friday but I don't happen to recall the particular occasion. I think perhaps I wasn't there because I recall Ruth telling me how glad Marina was to see him or hear his voice on the telephone.

Mr. LIEBELER. You and your wife were separated at that time?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when you were first separated?

Mr. PAINE. Oh, we have been living apart about a year, I suppose.

Mr. LIEBELER. At that time, you mean in October?

Mr. PAINE. It had been a year; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So it would have been in October of 1962?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I guess it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you living in Grand Prairie?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How often would you visit your wife during the period that you were separated particularly during the period of September-October?

Mr. PAINE. Well, as I say it was 2 nights a week, 2 evenings a week was a regular thing, and I would frequently come around weekends. The garage had been my shop, with my tools that I occasionally used and I would stop by on weekends, on Sunday anyways, Friday for sure, Sunday accidentally, and generally, I think, on a Tuesday or Wednesday.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you came to the house did you stay there overnight or did you just come----

Mr. PAINE. No; I would just stay for supper in the evening.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you were residing entirely, spending your evenings in your own apartment in Grand Prairie during this period of time?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that your wife went on a trip to the eastern part of the United States in the fall of 1963, summer-fall of 1963?

Mr. PAINE. It was mostly the summer. She went about July and she spent a couple of months, the end of July, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately when she got back to Irving?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I think she came by around September 24 is the date, I don't remember whether that was the date she arrived in New Orleans or the date she arrived at Irving.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after she did return to Irving, and as you said brought Marina and the child with her, do you recall whether she also brought Oswald's personal and household effects?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I do remember she asked me to unpack or take some of the heavy things out of the car. I think that was only dufflebags but whatever it was it was so easy, I didn't really notice what it was to take out.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was shortly after she returned from her trip?

Mr. PAINE. That would suggest either the same day or the next day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now----

Mr. PAINE. Go ahead.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.

Mr. PAINE. I was thinking it would be much better to get, if it is important at all, to, she probably remembers these dates exactly and we could judge that I would be there. It happened the 24th was a Friday. If that was the date she got back, then I would know that I arrived the date they came back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you ever have occasion to go into the garage toward the end of September after your wife had returned for any reason?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. As I say that was, I still had a number of things there, and the tools were there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you used the tools from time to time?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that you used the tools, did you ever see a package wrapped in a blanket lying in the garage?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is one of the clearest things in my mind. I had had to move that. The garage is rather crowded especially with their things in it. It had degenerated from a shop into a storage place and in order to use the tools at all I would have to move things out of the way, and one of the packages was this blanket wrapped with a string and I had had to move it several times. I knew it belonged to the Oswalds. I am polite so I don't look into a package or even I wouldn't look into a letter if it were in an envelope which was unsealed. But I picked up this package and the first time I picked it up I thought it was a camping equipment and thought to myself they don't make camping equipment of iron any more, and at another time I think I picked it up at least twice or three times, and one time I had to put it on the floor, and there was a--I was a little ashamed because I didn't know what I was putting on the floor and I was going to get it covered with sawdust but I again supposed that it was camping equipment that wouldn't be injured by it being on the floor. I supposed it was camping equipment because it was wrapped in this greenish rustic blanket and that was the reason I thought it was a rustic thing.

I had also going a little further thought what kind of camping equipment has something this way and one going off 45°, a short stub like that. Then there was also a certain wideness at one end and then I thought of a folding tool I had in the Army, a folding shovel and I was trying to think how a folding shovel fit with the rest of this because that wasn't quite, the folding shovel was too symmetrical. That was as far as my thinking went on the subject but at one time or another those various thoughts would occur before I got to using the tools myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think there were tent poles in the package?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I supposed they were tent poles. I first thought it was tent poles and then I thought there are not enough poles here, enough to make a tent. I didn't think very elaborately about it but just kind of in the back of my mind before I got on to the next thing I visualized a pipe or possibly two, and with something coming off, that must come off kind of abruptly a few inches at 45° angle. I can draw you a picture of the thing as I had it. You know I wasn't thinking of a rifle. Definitely that thought never occurred to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you draw us a picture for it and I hand you a yellow pad and let me get you a pen. Would you draw a picture for us of what you visualized to be in the package?

Mr. PAINE. Also this was--I visualized after I put the package down. I would lift the package up, move it, put the package down and one time I was trying to puzzle how you could make camping equipment out of something--this is only one pipe in the package. That is the only thing. Then a little shovel which I am speaking is an Army shovel which looks something like so, and it has a folding handle on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have drawn on this piece of paper two different pictures, one of which you indicate as the shovel.

Mr. PAINE. I was trying to put these in the package to make something that I thought was a pipe about 30 inches long. Of course, that actual package as I visualized it--that is the outline, that is how it lay in the package.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have drawn a dotted line, outline around his first picture that you drew which you indicated you thought you conceived of as an iron pipe of some sort.

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you mark this. I hand this to the reporter and ask him to mark this as Exhibit 1.

(The drawing was marked "Michael Paine Exhibit No. 1".)

Mr. LIEBELER. When you moved this package around, did it appear to you that there was more than one object inside of it or did it appear to be a solid piece or just what was your feeling?

Mr. PAINE. I didn't think. It remained in the package--nothing jelled. I think I thought about it more than once because my thoughts didn't hold together enough.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it rattle at all when you moved it?

Mr. PAINE. No; it didn't rattle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now----

Mr. PAINE. I kind of rejected the shovel idea because that was not, that was too symmetrical.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was too symmetrical?

Mr. PAINE. The shovel the shaft and the blade of the shovel are symmetrical, the shaft is on the center line of the shovel and here this wider area had to be offset somehow.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said you thought it was about 30 inches long?

Mr. PAINE. No; I am just telling you. I picked up a package which I first thought camping equipment, heavy iron pipes, and then I tried, then later, maybe when I had left, I tried to think, well, what kind of camping equipment has that little stub on it that goes off at an angle or asymmetric like that, and the flat end down there and I tried to put a shovel in there to fill out the bag, and with the camping equipment, to the shape of the thing.

I never--I didn't put these in words, they were just kind of thoughts in the back part of my mind. I wasn't particularly curious about it. I just had to move this object and I think I have told you about the full extent of my thinking.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long would you estimate the package to be?

Mr. PAINE. The package was about that long. That is 40 inches long.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's get a ruler and have you indicate. Would you indicate, Mr. Paine, on the edge of the desk here approximately how long you think the package was and then I will measure what you have indicated.

Mr. PAINE. I guess about that. That is including the blanket.

Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has indicated a length of 37-1/2 inches.

Mr. PAINE. You had two twelves. All right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you say that was including the blanket, what do you mean by that?

Mr. PAINE. Well, the blanket was wrapped around the end of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it wrapped tightly?

Mr. PAINE. Pretty snug.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you moved it did you have the impression that there might have been any paper inside of it?

Mr. PAINE. No; I would have said no; I didn't have that impression. Nothing crinkled, no sound.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you moved it several times?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any indication by a crinkling or otherwise that there might be paper wrapped inside the blanket?

Mr. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you said before that you had thought that they didn't make camping equipment out of iron anymore. What do you mean by that?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I had had camping equipment, of course, camping equipment we had was a tent with iron pipes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What prompted you to think of that thought in connection with this particular package?

Mr. PAINE. I suppose it was the--I had a .22 when I was a kid.

Mr. LIEBELER. A .22 caliber rifle?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I had two of them. I kept that in better condition, I mean, this was a rustic looking blanket, it looked as though it had been kicked around. It was dusty, and it seemed to me it was wrapped with a twine or something, tied up with a twine. So I thought of, it looked to me like the kind of blanket I had used for a bed roll on the ground.

I suppose that is the thought that started me thinking in the line of camping equipment. And then I suppose I must have felt, I felt a pipe, at least, and maybe some sense of there being more than one pipe but I drew that picture that I drew, I didn't sense that there being another pipe I didn't put it in because I never did place another pipe around it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never placed another pipe----

Mr. PAINE. I had the idea there might have been more than one pipe here or I didn't know where the other pipe might be.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the time you picked it up, at any time that you picked it up, did you have the idea that there might be more than two pipes inside the package.

Mr. PAINE. Well, I would never have mentioned camping equipment, you see, without, you can't make anything without more than one pipe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Think of the configuration of the package or of the way it acted when you moved it, was there any indication in that sense that there was more than one pipe inside.

Mr. PAINE. No; I think it was a homogenous, that is to say it didn't move one part with respect to another.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it tied tightly?

Mr. PAINE. It was tied quite firmly. It seemed to me the blanket was wrapped double or something that the blanket itself would have made two pipes trying to hold still in the blanket.

Mr. LIEBELER. How wide was the package?

Mr. PAINE. Well, apparently, it was lopsided because I remember not being able to fit the shovel in it, but if you are to draw that outline or something, I think that would go around the blanket.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to draw something additional here?

Mr. PAINE. It was smaller at this end. It was smaller at this one end and that was generally the end that I carried in my right hand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you mark the area on the drawing that you are indicating, mark it with an "A" on the drawing. And you indicate that it was smaller at the end marked "A" than at the other end or it was not as wide?

Mr. PAINE. I can't remember how it was wrapped at this end because I could grab my hand around the paper whereas this end, I think was folded over.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that the blanket, you think the blanket was folded over at the other end opposite from "A"?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't know, there were two separate different thoughts at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have drawn a solid line completely around the first drawing that you made on No. 1?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't think I made this one, my solid line should be much longer. It should have gone out there. I will scratch it out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Okay. The witness is scratching out the first line at end "B" and drawing in another line.

Mr. PAINE. This is the widest dimension here, and I was indicating, between 7 and 8 inches.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mark that "C".

Mr. PAINE. All right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now the witness has stated that the dimension marked "C" on the drawing was approximately 7 or 8 inches. Would you mark a "B" at the end opposite from "A" on the drawing so we can keep the record straight as to what we have been talking about?

Mr. PAINE. [Marking.]

Mr. LIEBELER. We have now gotten two dimensions roughly of the package, the length and the height.

Mr. PAINE. My hand went around it pretty well, it didn't close around it but it went around it to the grabbing of the fashion where the pipe went actually through my fingers and thumb.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your hand actually close around it?

Mr. PAINE. It did not close around it. At the other end I grabbed it when I picked it up, grabbing it, I will draw my fingers here. This is the thumb.

Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has sketched----

Mr. PAINE. In that fashion there. That was, say, 2 inches thick with the blanket.