Chapter XXIII: Part 23

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I told you as much as I can. At the same time, in spite she is lazy--well, it is her upbringing, that is the way she was brought up. But she was a very, very pleasant girl. And she loved life, and she loved the United States, absolutely. We would drive on the streets, she would just--oh, that is the United States.

That is maybe why I like her, because she give me the impression she felt like I felt when I came in. She said she was always dreaming to come to the United States. She looked at those pictures with big, big houses and everything.

Did I tell you how she met Oswald, according to her?

Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was in the town of Minsk. There was some kind of apartment houses, supposed to be very, very good. And she saw that house and thought, "How wonderful if I just go there to visit in that apartment house."

And Lee happened to be living there. And I think Lee was sick. And she sort of nursed him out, or something like that. That is how they met.

And I don't know--but it is very possible that she was very much influential in making them come back.

Mr. JENNER. Come to the United States?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Come to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. That was the impression you obtained from her?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.

On the other hand, he was also disappointed. He wasn't as excited as he was when he went over there, from the impressions we get from him.

Mr. JENNER. From your contacts with him, you had the impression he had been disappointed in Russia?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I asked him, "Why did you come back, if you were such a brave big hero and you threw the passport?"

And as she told me, "In the American Ambassador's face in Moscow."

He said, "Here is your passport, now I am going to be a Soviet citizen."

And I said, "How come you are back?"

He said, "I didn't find what I was looking for."

Mr. JENNER. Oswald said that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was Oswald's answer. "I didn't find what I was looking for."

So, to me, the answer was the stupid kid decided to be obnoxious, and thinking he was a big hero went over there, and learned the hard way, burned himself, and decided to come back, and our Government was wonderful to help him at the time. And he was very conscientious about paying the debt, very conscientious. He paid it back, I think, the first thing, out of the first salary, in spite how hard it was for them to live. Those are the things.

And I don't know of anybody saying anything good about him. And that made me a little mad. Nobody said anything good about him. He had a lot of good qualities. He had a lot of terrible qualities, but certainly to compare him with that horrible Ruby--Oswald had a lot of good qualities. And if people would be kinder to him, maybe, you know--maybe he wouldn't be driven to be so, and wouldn't do anything like that. I don't know whether he did or not, anyway. But he would not be involved in it.

But I have the impression that he was just pushed, pushed, pushed, and she was probably nagging, nagging, nagging.

Mr. JENNER. You found her to be a nagger?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; oh, yes; she ribbed him even in front of us.

Mr. JENNER. She did?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did. She ribbed him so, that if I would ever speak to my husband that way we would not last long. I would not do it. Because I could see----

Mr. JENNER. What did she say? You see----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, big hero, or look at that big shot, something like that.

Mr. JENNER. When you say she ribbed him in front of us, that doesn't mean anything to us. That is a conclusion.

What did she say to him?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Let me try to remember exactly. Don't forget, I am telling right now impressions. It is very difficult to remember exact words. But certain things led to leave that impression in my mind.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, it happens that you and George, having the time, having the inclination, being the kind of people you are, you saw more of the Oswalds than anybody else.

And what I am trying to do is to obtain from you, not only your impressions, but how you came by them.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. But what I want to tell you--I don't think it is correct. We didn't see them more than anybody else. In fact, we saw them maybe less, because she never lived with us--she stayed once overnight. And they have been very, very seldom at our house, very, very seldom. I cannot exactly tell how many times. But you can count it on your fingers how many times. And usually it was when finally I find the time and I said come over and I will make dinner for you, or something like that, because I knew they were not eating very well.

He didn't care for it at all, but she did. She liked to eat well, and good things. So that was the only occasion we saw them.

So I think other people saw them even more. For instance, the people that she lived with, absolutely, because he used to come and visit her.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you were more direct with her and with him, you and your husband, because primarily his disposition is to speak his mind, and Oswald respected your husband.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did. He respected him, and he respected me. And maybe that is what makes the difference with the rest of the crowd. He never was respectful. Once, as I said, he was a little--showed a little violence, and he said he will break all the baby's toys and tear her dresses if we take her away from him.

I said, "Lee, where will that get you? If you really love Marina that is the last thing you should do, then you lose her forever." And he sort of boiled and boiled. He sat quietly, you know. And he said, all right, he would not do it.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I asked you as to the sources of difficulty, and you related them. Did she twit him about his inability to make enough money so that she could live better?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That was one complaint. Another complaint, sexwise, he wasn't satisfactory for her. In fact, she was almost sick that she wasn't getting enough sex, which I never heard of before, I didn't know such things can happen to people, you know.

We saw, ourselves, he was a little difficult--for instance, with the baby. I also objected that he didn't let her smoke. After all, she is supposed to be a grown woman. He was definitely domineering--it has to be just like he said and that is it. He always had a feeling that he is the boss, and she has to--just nothing, just wipe the floor with her. This man. So we objected to that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you were going to tell me the basis on which you formed your opinion as to her, you say, nagging. You used the term "ribbing." This was not jocular, was it--not joking? It was irritating?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was irritating. That he was a big shot, reading, reading, reading.

Mr. JENNER. Would say that in your presence?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. She would ridicule him, in other words?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in a way, yes. She said things that will hurt men's pride. That definitely was.

Mr. JENNER. Try and recall more of that.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think what else she said. Also, she objected violently that he was rude to the people that helped her. That was very important. Because--and I know--I told you the reasons why he objected to that, which are understandable, also.

But still, on the other hand, for instance, one incident was--I remember the Clarks invited them for dinner, and Lee answered the phone, and he said, when they invited him for dinner, we have other plans. He probably didn't want to go there. That is all it was. But you don't talk like that to people. So Marina objected to that. She told that to me.

There were several other occasions similar to that. For instance, he could not stand George Bouhe. He just could not stand him. And, in a way, I don't blame him. I can't stand him, either--that type of a person. He is okay, he is supposed to be a friend. But I don't like that type of personality. He absolutely could not stand him.

You know, some people do charity, and they expect for you to kiss their hands for it. And some people do charity, and they are very glad to do it and forget about it, don't expect anything. This is the kind of charity I believe in. Bouhe likes to help, and then he keeps those people like slaves, he is a little king, and they do anything for him after that. But Oswald didn't.

And that is why there was tremendous antagonism there. Bouhe asked Marina never to come to his house at all, because he was afraid that Oswald will follow her and will cause him a scandal, or God knows what. He was that kind of person. I think that was the main thing, that Oswald was rude to people helping him.

Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald ever talk about his political views in your presence?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In which way? Overall political, or any particular incidents?

Mr. JENNER. Politics with a capital P. His views on government.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think definitely he was a Marxist, ideologist Marxist. I don't think he was a Communist from the way I would understand a Communist. We didn't know if he did or he didn't belong to any party at all. I don't think he even belonged to a party in Russia, because that was--oh, this is very important.

His objection--the things that he didn't like in Russia was those horrible meetings, constant meetings, party meetings. He said that you have to work, and you have to go to those meetings--they drive people crazy, those party meetings, worker meetings. They have to go and listen to speeches and bla, bla, bla. So I don't think he was--according to that, I don't think he was interested in a party, or belonging to anything.

It was a complete surprise to us when we learned after all this that he was actually involved in doing something for Castro, selling leaflets or something, in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. Passing them out?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. Because we never had----

Mr. JENNER. You were in Haiti by that time?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; we saw them last time Easter, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Now, something occurred in Easter, 1963 when you went to visit them?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was this Easter Sunday or the day after?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, to my best recollection it was Saturday before Easter. By the way, the first time they talked to us about it, I completely mixed all the dates. I thought it was in the fall. But it was the day I remember when we come over with the big pink rabbit for the baby.

Mr. JENNER. Did you arrive there during the day?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was in the evening. I think we were playing tennis, and then we were somewhere, and then I decided we will be busy tomorrow, and I wanted to take the rabbit to the baby.

And we came over late at night. It was 10 o'clock, or maybe later. And I remember they gave us something to drink.

Mr. JENNER. You arrived there. Were they--had they retired for the night?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they were halfway in bed already, because the house was dark. I remember we banged on the door. It was dark.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee came to the door?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember who came to the door, Marina or Lee.

Mr. JENNER. They turned the light on. And where were they living then?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was their last apartment--not Elsbeth, but the other one. I have the address, Elsbeth address. But the other address I don't have. It is just around the corner.

Mr. JENNER. 214?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the address.

Mr. JENNER. Was it upstairs or downstairs?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Upstairs. There was a little terrace, and a big tree growing right next to the terrace.

Mr. JENNER. Had you been there before?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. That is the first time you had ever been there?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. Maybe I was. I don't think so.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so.

Mr. JENNER. You got there. Now, just relax----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think hard, because every little fact could be important.

Mr. JENNER. But you are excited. Relax, and tell me everything that occurred, chronologically, as best you can on that occasion. You came to the door and either Marina or Oswald came to the door, and you and your husband went in the home?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Then, go on. Tell me about it.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house--that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?

Mr. JENNER. You say----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle.

Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything.

Mr. JENNER. Standing up on its butt?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 139. Is that the rifle that you saw?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It looks very much like it.

Mr. JENNER. And was it standing in the corner of the closet?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You want me to show you how it was leaning? Make believe I open the closet door this way. And the rifle was leaning something like that.

Mr. JENNER. Right against the wall?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and the closet was square. I said, what is this?

Mr. JENNER. It was this rifle?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. It looks very much like it, because something was dangling over it, and I didn't know what it was. This telescopic sight. Like we had a rifle with us on the road, we just had a smooth thing, nothing attached to it. And I saw something here.

Mr. JENNER. I say your attention was arrested, not only, because when the closet door was opened by Marina you saw the rifle in the closet--you saw a rifle?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That surprised you, first?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course.

Mr. JENNER. And then other things that arrested your attention, as I gather from what you said, is that you saw a telescopic sight?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't know what it was.

Mr. JENNER. But your attention was arrested by that fact, because it was something new and strange to you?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You were accustomed to your husband having weapons?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had only one rifle on our trip. But my father was a collector of guns, that was his hobby.

Mr. JENNER. And being accustomed to rifles, to the extent you have indicated, you noticed this telescopic lens, because you had not seen a rifle with a telescopic lens on it before? Had you seen a rifle with the bolt action that this has?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't ever know. I read it was bolt action, but I would not know.

Mr. JENNER. But you did notice this protrusion, the ball sticking out?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall. The only thing there was something on it. It could be that it was the telescopic sight or something, but it was something on the rifle. It was not a smooth, plain rifle. This is for sure.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you saw that, and being surprised, were you concerned about it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just asked what on earth is he doing with a rifle?

Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "Oh, he just loves to shoot." I said, "Where on earth does he shoot? Where can he shoot?" When they lived in a little house. "Oh, he goes in the park and he shoots at leaves and things like that." But it didn't strike me too funny, because I personally love skeet shooting. I never kill anything. But I adore to shoot at a target, target shooting.

Mr. JENNER. Skeet?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just love it.

Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange to have someone say he is going in a public park and shooting leaves?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But he was taking the baby out. He goes with her, and that was his amusement.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that was his amusement, practicing in the park, shooting leaves. That wasn't strange to me, because any time I go to an amusement park I go to the rifles and start shooting. So I didn't find anything strange.

Mr. JENNER. But you shot a rifle at the rifle range in these amusement parks?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Little .22?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know what it was.

Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange that a man would be walking around a public park in Dallas with a high-powered rifle like this, shooting leaves?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know it was a high-powered rifle. I had no idea. I don't even know right now. Is it a high-powered rifle? Or just a regular one-bullet rifle, isn't it?

Mr. JENNER. It is a one-bullet rifle, but it is a pretty powerful one.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't know that. What caliber is it?

Mr. JENNER. 6.5.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't understand. We had 16--shotgun with us.

Mr. JENNER. Had anything been said up to this point in your acquaintance with the Oswalds of his having had a rifle, or a shotgun, in Russia?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion of any hunting in Russia?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In fact, we never even knew that he was a sharpshooter or something. We never knew about it.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion of that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No discussion at all. She just said, we are so short of money, and this crazy lunatic buys a rifle. This is what she told me. And you know what happened after that.

Mr. JENNER. Please. Tell me everything she said on this occasion.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think the most important thing is, that crazy lunatic bought a rifle when we really need money for other things.

Mr. JENNER. And she also said he took it out in the park and was shooting it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something like that; yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, then, what did you do? Go into some other part of the house?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It wasn't very much. I believe it was only two rooms. And then I returned back, and told George--do you know what they have in the closet? I came back to the room, where George and Lee were sitting and talking. I said, do you know what they have in the closet? A rifle. And started to laugh about it. And George, of course, with his sense of humor--Walker was shot at a few days ago, within that time. He said, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker by any chance?" And we started laughing our heads off, big joke, big George's joke. And later on, according to the newspapers, he admitted that he shot at Walker.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when George made that remark in the presence of Lee Oswald, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker?" Did you notice any change----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were not looking for any. I wish I would know.

Mr. JENNER. Please--I want only your reaction. Your husband has told me his. You noticed nothing?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't notice anything.

Mr. JENNER. Were you looking to see whether he had a change of expression?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; none at all. It was just a joke.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you were concerned, it was a joke?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. But you did not look at him to see if he reacted?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't take it seriously enough to look at him.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain after that at their home?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not very long. I think we went on the terrace. And I don't even remember whether we had a drink, a soft drink, or not. And we left. She got me some roses. They had a big rose tree right by the staircase. And she got me a lot of roses, and we went home. The baby was asleep.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see the Oswalds on any subsequent occasion?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Never saw them?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I don't think so. What day was Easter, by the way? Do you remember--1963?

Mr. JENNER. No; I don't.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because the 19th of April, we left.

Mr. JENNER. You left for New York on the 19th of April?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nineteenth, from what I recall. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. I think Easter was late that year, but I am not certain. In any event, it was the day before Easter?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe so; yes. The night before Easter.

Mr. JENNER. When you left for New York, you were in New York a few weeks, a couple of weeks?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We spent about 6 weeks between New York, Washington, Philadelphia.

Mr. JENNER. And you returned to Dallas in May?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. End of May.

Mr. JENNER. Did you call the Oswalds?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we didn't. We heard that they were already gone. I wanted to see them before we went to Haiti. But I understood that they were gone, or they were going. I had no time. So we didn't get in touch with them. But we had a card from them from New Orleans, with their address. But I don't think we ever wrote to them. I don't remember writing. We were going to send them a Christmas card.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall an occasion in February of 1963 when there was a gathering in the evening at the home of, or apartment of Everett Glover?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and your husband take part in that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we were showing our movies to Everett's friends.

Mr. JENNER. How did that party come about?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know, we have this quite unusual film, and quite a few people interested to see it. And, in fact, we showed that film--the film so many times, at clubs and gatherings. And he had still quite a few friends that wanted to see it, and we had a couple of friends. So we decided to have it. And then he mentioned he knew a woman, Ruth Paine.

Mr. JENNER. You are talking about Glover?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and he said that would be very nice. I was sort of looking for American couples to introduce Lee and Marina to American people--not to Russian refugees--to get her out of that. So he mentioned that it would be very nice for Marina to meet this girl, and it was. She was a young woman, she was interested in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. What was her name?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ruth Paine. And that we thought was very good, because she could help Marina in English and Marina would help her in Russian, that it would work very well. From what I understand later on from the papers, she did help a lot, Marina. She did a lot for her.

Mr. JENNER. Did you talk to Marina about this in advance?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I think maybe I did. I don't remember. I really don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. A few weeks before this, Marina and Lee had visited in your home, isn't that correct?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, very possible. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Had you known Ruth Paine at all prior to this time?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Met her the first time that evening, and we liked her very much, because she is an outgoing, warm, and wonderful person. I thought that would be terrific for Marina to be close to somebody because I didn't have time. I just couldn't, and I don't have any patience. When I see somebody is clicking right away I respond to advice, but she wasn't, you know. She was too slow, and we have too much problems with our own children.

Mr. JENNER. Who is too slow?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina. We had too many problems with our own children, and I was just tired of it, you know. After all, she was not my child. I did everything I could, so let somebody else take over and do something else because I was too busy, and we were planning this trip. George--through next month to Haiti actually to seal this contract. We had our heads busy with other things.

Mr. JENNER. What occurred during that evening? The movie was shown?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We just showed the movie and discussed it, and the people asked different questions, peculiar questions about the life of Indians--or----

Mr. JENNER. About your trip?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About our trip, and that was all.

Mr. JENNER. Weren't these people interested in Marina and Oswald?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some were.

Mr. JENNER. Who was present?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I recall at that particular time, it was just Ruth Paine that we noticed was the most interested in her. I don't even remember who was there besides. I don't remember who was there.

There were some young people from a mobile research laboratory that worked with Everett.

Mr. JENNER. From Everett Glover's place?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; there were people there. I do believe, I think we invited the person that owned the apartment house. This time we showed movies twice at Everett's house, I believe. I think we showed it twice, and we invited the people that own the apartment house because they were interested in that.

Mr. JENNER. What are their names?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. She is teaching in a university, in Dallas University now. They like to travel a lot, too. I am sure you can get the name, the list of names of people from Everett.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee have a good time at this party, or meeting?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know, because it was always dark when the movies were shown, so I wasn't observing anybody.

Mr. JENNER. Did you bring Lee and Marina to the party?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't believe so. I think somebody else got them, because I think we had people, out of town guests, and in fact we came in very late, I think. We arrived quite late that day.

Mr. JENNER. You arrived at the party late?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; once we were late. I forgot which showing it was. We had a couple of people out of town. We invited them for dinner, and then we brought them over.

Mr. JENNER. That was the only purpose of the meeting that you have indicated?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The only purpose of?

Mr. JENNER. The meeting, the only purpose was the one you have indicated?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attend a combination Christmas and New Year's party in December of 1963 at the Fords?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the date.

Mr. JENNER. 1963.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the date, but there was a party, and we attended it.

Mr. JENNER. Please, when you say you don't know the dates, was it in December? Was it in the holiday period?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was in the holiday period, but was it December or was it early January, I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. And who was at that party?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were quite a lot of people from this Russian colony and among them there was a little Japanese girl. Do you know about Yaeko?

Mr. JENNER. Y-a-e-k-o?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know Yaeko before?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we knew Yaeko before.

Mr. JENNER. What was her last name?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember her last name because we always called her Yaeko.

Mr. JENNER. Where was she working?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know whether she was working at the time or not, but she was imported by some American family. She came with the family. She is supposed to be from a very fine Japanese family. She was wealthy. It was strange she worked almost as a servant in some family. I know she had only one day off, because I remember when we wanted to invite her it was only one day, Thursday, that we could invite her. Then she did some work with Neiman Marcus.

Mr. JENNER. Neiman Marcus?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then she was a musician. She played the Japanese special long, long instrument, and she was playing with the Dallas Symphony, and she was also playing at exhibits, Neiman Marcus gives exhibits, you know, oriental exhibits, whatever it was, that fall, and she was participating in it. That is what we know about Yaeko. But then we heard that she was in New York.

To tell you frankly I never trusted Yaeko. I thought there was something fishy, maybe because I was brought up with Japanese, you know, and I knew what treachery it is, you know. I just somehow--she was very pleasant, but was very strange to me the way she was floating around, you know, and everything. There is another strange thing happened, too, with that Yaeko.

Mr. JENNER. Involving the Oswalds?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was very funny because they practically spent all evening together at that party, and Marina was furious, of course, about it. And the party that brought Yoico to the party was furious about it, too, and I don't blame him for it. And from what I understand, Marina told me that Oswald saw Yaeko after, which was very unusual, because I don't think Oswald wanted to see anyone, let's put it that way. He would rather just sit by himself and--locked in a house, not to see anyone. And, in fact, Marina was jealous of it, from Yaeko. She was the only person we know that Oswald really liked.

Mr. JENNER. Can you recall the names of the family with whom Yaeko--by whom Yaeko was employed?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; but I can find out very easily.

Mr. JENNER. How?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Through Dallas. They know the people that actually introduced Yaeko. It will be Henry Rogatz who knows Yaeko very well.

Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Two people who can give you everything about Yoico because they have been carrying on helping her all the time. Henry Rogatz, also in----

Mr. JENNER. Henry Rogatz, R-o-g-a-t-z, and Lev Aronson, A-r-o-n-s-o-n?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and I believe I have Lev's address in my phone book, if I need it. I can phone you. I don't know if we have Henry's address now. They are both very nice people, charming people.

Mr. JENNER. Would you do this. Call my hotel, The Madison?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Call later on?

Mr. JENNER. And leave a message at my hotel as to Mr. Aronson's address and telephone number, if you have it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and maybe we have Henry's address. Maybe somebody sent it to us because we asked. We didn't have it with us when we left. We just moved. Voshinin liked Yaeko.

Mr. JENNER. Voshinin?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I think Henry can tell you much more than anybody.

Mr. JENNER. How, otherwise, did Oswald act at this Christmas party. He paid a great deal of attention, apparently, to----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; they talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.

Mr. JENNER. To the Japanese girl?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; what did they talk about, I don't have the slightest idea. But everybody remarked and we were laughing about it. We were teasing Marina how he had a little Japanese girl now, you now. That was just as fun, of course, you know. But evidently they not only talked because she said he saw her later and he liked her. That is what she told me. He really liked Yaeko.

Mr. JENNER. Did you bring the Oswalds to the party?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we brought them. In fact, I had a fight almost to get them to that party because Cathy didn't want them and we weren't giving any parties. We gave a big party before, and I wanted Marina to be at some Christmas party because it was her first Christmas in the United States, she could have some kind of fun, so I talked her into it finally. She objected, because she could not bring the baby because the baby would wake up.

I said okay, I'm going to leave the baby with somebody else. So I have another friend which I talked into babysitting for the baby. So we went, we got there, and we left the baby with the friend and then we took them to the party, and then we went back to the friend, picked up the baby. It was midnight or whatever it was, and took them back.

Mr. JENNER. Earlier in raising this Christmas party matter with you, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, I stated that it was in December of 1963. That was a slip of the tongue, and it was in December of 1962, because in December of 1963 you were in Haiti.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was after this.

Mr. JENNER. Of course, it couldn't be December of 1963.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was dead already.

Mr. JENNER. By that time, he was not alive. You took the Oswalds home that evening?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe we did. We just had to, because we had to go pick up the baby. The baby was crying all evening. That poor woman was up with her all the time. It was just impossible, that baby was so spoiled, all the time with her, with her mother, or with Lee, because so few people came to see them. They lived like mice, you know. That is why we were so sorry for them.

I wanted for them to meet American couples to get out of it. We tried to get Marina friendly with George's daughter because she had a little boy, too.

Mr. JENNER. With whose daughter?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With George's daughter.

Mr. JENNER. Alexandra?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but Alexandra couldn't understand her. She thought it was horrible the way she treats that baby. It is true she doesn't know how to raise the baby. Alexandra told me she was lazy, also, and she wasn't clean, and things like that.

Now I remember how come it was that she wasn't clean. Alexandra was complaining about her. So Alexandra--it didn't hit off exactly with Alexandra, but it was very nice. Her husband went to visit them after, and I think they helped them to move, even.

Mr. JENNER. Gary Taylor?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Gary is insignificant but a good soul, a good boy, you know. He is nothing at all.

Mr. JENNER. You mean he is not a man of attainment?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but he is a good soul. He is really good, so I could never be very angry for what happened. It was just a child's prank that he ran off so early and got married. In fact, I was sorry for him because I knew he is not going to be happy, not to start with. I knew he was not going to be. I believe kids helped them quite some and maybe the kids consoled them after.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything ever said by Marina or your husband that she sought to have Oswald leave Russia and come to the United States?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so. It is just impressions we had.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was there any discussion at any time, or did anything come to your attention that Lee Oswald sought to have Marina return to Russia?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. None at all.

Mr. JENNER. That is entirely new to you?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely new. Was it such a thing? I shouldn't ask you any questions. I am sorry, because I am so curious about the whole thing, myself. In fact, we learned from press 10 times more than we ever knew about them.

Mr. JENNER. You may have gotten a lot of misinformation from the press, as well.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Could be, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of your husband's letter to Mrs. Auchincloss, Jacqueline Kennedy's mother?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I what?

Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of the letter----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did your husband show you that letter?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Before he sent it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He usually shows me most of the letters. I show to him whenever I write to some friends. But if I want to add anything or if he wants to add anything to mine.

Mr. JENNER. I show you De Mohrenschildt Exhibits Nos. 14 and 15, No. 14 being the original of your husband's letter of December 12, 1963, to Mrs. Auchincloss, and No. 15 being the envelope in which that letter was mailed.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think I really should read it.

Do you want me to read it again?

Mr. JENNER. You have read that exhibit?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am just finishing; yes. Do you want me to read this, too?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record.

The second paragraph reads: "Since we lived in Dallas permanently last year and before, we had the misfortune to have met Oswald and especially his wife Marina some time last fall." Now, what did you mean by "We had the misfortune to have met Oswald"?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I am sure he meant, and I agree with him because it is not pleasant to know if he really did it, to know the killer of our President, I would rather not know them. I would rather not have anything to do and be as far away as possible, unless that we help, you know. That is what he meant, I am sure, and I am joining him in the same feeling.

Mr. JENNER. The next sentence: "Both my wife and I tried to help poor Marina, who could not speak any English, was mistreated by her husband. She and the baby were malnourished and sickly."

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, all that is true; isn't it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely true. She was just skin and bones. The baby was not thin, but the baby had improper diet. She didn't know how to feed that baby.

Mr. JENNER. She did not?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She had no idea how to feed that baby. The baby was raised on sugar, water and sugar, no food. It is just terrible, like prehistoric times she was raising that baby. That is why I insisted immediately she register the baby in the clinic. The baby was 9 months old, didn't have diptheria, whooping cough, polio injection, didn't have anything.

I don't think the baby was ever at the doctor. The way she was feeding him every time the baby cried she gave him sugar water, put sugar in the milk, everywhere, you know. Children have to have a proper diet, a balanced diet.

I told her, "You are living in a civilized country now. You have to raise a baby correctly."

She constantly put the pacifier in the mouth, dropping it on the floor, putting it in her mouth, infected teeth and putting it in the baby's mouth. It is fantastic the baby wasn't sick all the time. Seeing all that, I couldn't stand it. I insisted on her taking the baby to the clinic, helping her, extract all those teeth.

Mr. JENNER. Marina's teeth?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Marina's teeth that were infected because they weren't doing her any good, anyway. It was too dangerous for the baby to be close to the mother, with all this infection. In fact, I was trying to make arrangements to make some bridges for her later on that could be paid gradually, you know, and that is what I was trying to do for her. This was logical and natural. Anybody would do the same thing.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; of course.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She just didn't know any better, you know. That was shocking to me because I had the impression, in fact Marina doesn't fit at all my ideal, not ideal but how to say it, my feeling about Soviet youth. I pictured them entirely different. I pictured them all sportsmen, very tough, you know, just thinking of their work, sportsmen or something, you know. Some field that they are interested in and that is it. She seems to be exactly opposite to everything. She wasn't a sports girl at all. She didn't have any particular desire for anything, you know. She didn't have determination and goal or anything like that in her life. She was just loving, you know, absolutely opposite, and when she told us how they behave in Russia, that was absolutely too--I never thought that. I thought they were very, very proper and very----

Mr. JENNER. What did she say about how they behaved?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, these sort of orgies, you know, wild parties, and things like that that I would never think that youth would be busy with that because we saw some youngsters in Yugoslavian companies in the camps, maybe we saw the healthier ones and the bad ones stayed in the city probably, but they were all just like Scouts, you know, just like we were brought up, all interested in sports or in collections or something, you know. They had wonderful healthy interests.

And Marina was exactly opposite all of these things. In fact, in spite of that, she was a pharmacologist, that means she has a good head. But somehow she was not at all what I would picture as a Soviet girl. It was entirely opposite, and maybe she is an exception, or maybe they all are, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. And she related to you these wild parties and orgies in Minsk? Was that in the presence of Lee?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. Lee was there very, very little, because he was always working or something. One evening I talked with her very long when she came over to go to the dentist, and the baby was asleep and George was asleep, and she wanted to talk, and we sat down and had some wine and she could smoke all she wanted and she had wine that she wanted. So she told me quite a lot of things. I was really sorry for her.

I gave her a nylon nightgown and a little nylon coat that went on and she was sitting and touching it. "Can you imagine me wearing that," you know. It was to her something out of this world, to have such things on her. That was sort of touching, you know. She really is pleasant. You cannot be very angry with her.

Mr. JENNER. You have testified for quite awhile. Now, tell me what kind of a person she was? What is your definite impression now? You have told me she told you about these wild orgies. When you use that expression I assume they were parties of----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sexual orgies. I mean the things that would never occur to us.

Mr. JENNER. In this country?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In this country. I would say China, too. I was brought up in China and never heard of such things, you know. Youth never acted like that at all.

So it definitely looks like a degeneration, you know, definitely degeneration.

Mr. JENNER. You found her, while you knew she was a pharmacist----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You immediately noticed that she was ignorant, let me say?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In bringing up the child?

Mr. JENNER. In bringing up this child?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely.

Mr. JENNER. That she fed her sugar and water?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Milk and sugar.

Mr. JENNER. Milk and sugar and was unattentive as to cleanliness with the child?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The child was more or less clean, but with this pacifier thing.

Mr. JENNER. The pacifier would fall on the floor, she would pick it up and stick it in the baby's mouth?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; first she put it in her infected mouth and then in the baby's mouth, it was even worse. That is what I objected. Pick it up off the floor. The floor was less germs than her infected teeth, but she was not aware of it. That is what didn't make sense, didn't make sense at all. After all, a pharmacist--it also didn't make any sense to me how could she, came from the country where all the medical help is supposed to be absolutely free.

Mr. JENNER. Can you recall any other incidents?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With Marina?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recollect of anything of any importance.

Mr. JENNER. Indicating what kind of a person she was. What about her honesty? Would you believe her under oath, where her personal interests were involved, let us say?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. I tell you what I didn't like about her recently and sort of swayed me a little against her. According to what I read in the newspapers, she said when she was asked--I mean what swayed me about her personality----

Mr. JENNER. I don't want you influenced by what you read in the papers afterward. I want your opinion.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She impressed me as an honest girl. She really impressed me as an honest girl, and not malicious, not malicious, promiscuous, you know.

Mr. JENNER. What?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Promiscuous.

Mr. JENNER. She was promiscuous but not malicious?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not malicious. That is how I would put it, you know. She was so anxious to live and she was so happy to be in the United States. She wanted to have it all, you know what I mean? She wanted a car and she wanted to have a little apartment and have all these little gadgets that fascinated her, just like they fascinated me when I came to the United States. She was living in that poor, poor apartment. Of course, it was depressing for her.

Mr. JENNER. Was she talking to Lee about all, that she wanted a car and these gadgets and a refrigerator?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot say she did, but I am sure she did.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband recalls that you and he, at least he, suggested to them that they should buy a car. They could get one for very little money.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe we talked about it. But I don't know if he even drives a car.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him drive a car?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time in your presence indicating whether he could or couldn't drive a car?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I think we had them in a car only once talking, you know, and she expressed how wonderful it would be to have a car, something like that, this is the only recollection I have. We didn't have too much discussions about it.

Mr. JENNER. You took the baby to the clinic for various shots?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Registered her, yes; and I got her card and the dates when she is supposed to come over, and I didn't take her next time. Somebody else took her. I took her only once to the clinic.

Mr. JENNER. So, as a matter of fact, Mrs. Dymitruk took her?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did.

Mr. JENNER. You recall Mrs. Dymitruk?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know her very little, but I recall her. I think it is Lydia, isn't it?

Mr. JENNER. You also took her to the dentist. Was that at Baylor?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a dental clinic, I believe. It was in Baylor Hospital, dental clinic.

Mr. JENNER. Some money had to be paid in that connection?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you got that money from George Bouhe?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, and he told me there would be the necessity of more money there would be no objection if he got some funds for them.

Mr. JENNER. That if there was need for additional money----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. More money, yes, he had some funds to help them.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the next paragraph of this letter reads: "Some time last fall we heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the character." You have told us about that incident, have you?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then it reads: "Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him seriously." You have told us about that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. "Marina stayed with the family of some childless Russian refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to her husband." Is that correct?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You recall that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was that the Mellers?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the Mellers, and she went back within a week or two instead of as she promised to be apart for 2 or 3 months. We were really furious. We wasted the whole day, so much aggravation, go through all that trying to do something for them and then she dropped the whole thing. So why bother, you know? So from then on we were really disgusted. After all, you can waste so much time, and if we don't see anything, response, you know we are just tired of it. Let them live their own rights. Let them battle their own battles.

Mr. JENNER. Did the occasion arise then shortly thereafter in which Marina left Lee and went with some others?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't even remember that.

Mr. JENNER. You don't?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. You do recall a time when she was with Mrs. Ford?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall it. I think she lived with them, too. I think so, but I don't know exactly when and how, because we hardly ever saw them from then on. Just occasionally all of a sudden I'd get sorry and I'd go and buy a cake, you know, a cheesecake or something and we'd just drive by and drop it and just talk with them a few minutes and leave. That is about the only things we had, the only connection we had.

Mr. JENNER. The next paragraph: "It is really a shame that such crimes occur in our times and in our country. But there is so much jealousy for success and the late President was successful in so many domains and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady characters that assassinations are bound to occur." Did your husband discuss that sentence with you?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, we didn't discuss any sentences of this letter.

Mr. JENNER. But you read the letter before it was mailed?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I read the letter.