Chapter XVIII: Part 18

Mr. JENNER. Did you engage him in conversation respecting Communism as a political ideal and his reactions to that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He kept on repeating that he was not a Communist. I asked him point blank, "Are you a member of the Communist Party?" And he said no. He said, "I am a Marxist." Kept on repeating it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ask him what he meant by that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never frankly asked him to elaborate on that, because again, you know the word "Marxism" is very boring to me. Just the sound of that word is boring to me.

Mr. JENNER. What impression did you get in that connection as to whether he was seeking some mean or middle ground between democracy and what he thought Communism was?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly he was seeking for something, but knowing what kind of brains he had, and what kind of education, I was not interested in listening to him, because it was nothing, it was zero.

Mr. JENNER. I see. It was your impression, then he could contribute nothing?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, he could contribute absolutely nothing except for a remark like that about the meetings, which was just an ordinary remark a person of his intelligence could understand. But when it comes to dialectic materialism, I do not want to hear that word again.

Mr. JENNER. Did discussions occur as to his attempted defection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From the United States to Russia?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. How it happened?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Why it happened and how it happened?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A few words I remember now. He said that while he was in Japan he saw tremendous injustice. By that he meant, I think, the poverty of the Japanese working class or the proletariat, as he called them, and the rich people in Japan. He said it was more visible than anywhere else. Now, I have never been in Japan, and I cannot vouch for that. But that is what he told me. And he also told me that he had some contacts with the Japanese Communists in Japan, and they--that got him interested to go and see what goes on in the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. Just concentrate on this, please. Tell me everything you can now recall as to what he said about--you used the term, what we lawyers call a conclusion. You said he had some contacts with the Communists in Japan. Now, try and recall what he said or as near----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I see what you mean. Since it was so removed from my interest, I did not insist. I just heard that.

Mr. JENNER. Just give me your best recollection.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is all I recall--that he said, "I have met some Communists in Japan and they got me excited and interested, and that was one of my inducements in going to Soviet Russia, to see what goes on there."

Mr. JENNER. Did you form any opinion that this man, because of his meager boyhood, on the verge of poverty, or in poverty all during his youth and up to the time he went into the Marines at least, that he had some groping for a ready solution that would not permit that sort of thing?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Naturally. That's the whole point. I could understand his point of view, because that is what happens exactly in the whole world with dissatisfied people. If they are constructive, they study more and try to get good jobs and succeed. The other try to form a revolutionary party. And he was one of them.

Mr. JENNER. The other try to do it overnight, by force of arms.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him that there are many great men and women who have come from poverty?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. You could not discuss it with Oswald because he knew it all.

Mr. JENNER. He always knew what the answer was.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He always knew what the answer was. And possibly that is why he was clinging to us, to my wife and me, because we did not discuss it with them, because we did not give a damn. After we found out what was going on in that town of Minsk, what was the situation, what were the food prices, how they dressed, how they spent their evenings, which are things interesting to us, our interest waned. The rest of the time, the few times we saw Lee Oswald and Marina afterwards, was purely to give a gift, to take them to a party, because we thought they were dying of boredom, you see--which Marina was.

Mr. JENNER. She was?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was, because he never would take her any place. That was the reason we invited them twice--once to a party at Declan Ford's--and that was, I think, a Christmas party. And another time a party at Everett Glover's, where I was showing my movie to the whole group. Because I thought they would be exceedingly--Marina was dying of boredom there.

Mr. JENNER. Let me get to that party at Declan Ford's. That was--was that a New Year's Day or New Year's Eve party?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was right at Christmas or New Year's Eve.

Mr. JENNER. The party went on for a couple of days, didn't it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A couple of days?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know that the party ran for a couple of days. But we arrived at 9 o'clock and left around 1 or 2, and it was still going strong.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I suppose when a witness said it lasted a couple of days, maybe the witness was thinking it started in the early evening of one day and did not end until well into the next day.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was not any of those wild parties. It was a very friendly, very good party.

Mr. JENNER. I'm not suggesting the party was wild. There is no intimation of that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No--on the contrary, they are very hospitable people invited, and always had a congenial crowd there. And that is why we suggested, let's bring that miserable Marina and Oswald there, so they would meet some people. And I think if people continued doing that, if people did that, maybe this tragedy might not have occurred.

Mr. JENNER. Or it might have become worse--his resentment.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina smoke?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Oh, boy, this is an interesting question. She loved to smoke and would smoke as many cigarettes as she could lay her hands on. And you know, Oswald did not smoke and forbade her to smoke. This is the reason--one of the reasons they fought so bitterly--because he would take the cigarette away from her and slap her.

Mr. JENNER. In your presence?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In my presence, would take the cigarette away from her and push her, "You are not going to do that", in a dictatorial way. So I would say, "Now, stop it, let her smoke." And then he would relax. But that is the type of person he was. But not in our presence--when we were away, Marina said he would not let her smoke nor drink, I think. He refused to let her drink either. And she liked to have a drink. With all her defects, she is more or less a normal person, and rather happy-go-lucky, a very happy-go-lucky girl.

Mr. JENNER. What about his drinking?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never saw him drink. Maybe he would take a very little, but I never saw him drink more than half a glass--as far as I remember. I didn't pay too much attention. Maybe that is why he was tense, because he did not drink enough. He was always tense. That guy was always under some kind of pressure.

Mr. JENNER. You have that impression?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; always some kind of a pressure.

Mr. JENNER. And this was an inward pressure, you thought?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; some inward pressure.

Mr. JENNER. See if I can refresh your recollection a little about that party, the first of the parties. I am going to ask you about the second one as well in a moment.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember being present at that party Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. If they are the people whom I identify as he being a man in the advertising business and she a girl of Russian origin--a friend of Mrs. Ford.

Mr. JENNER. He married her when he was in Germany.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that's it--something like that. You know, in this group of the Russian emigres, there were two people who came from Soviet Russia--there were Mrs. Ford and this lady, an entirely different type of individual--the new blood. They were younger and they were brought up in Soviet Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; they were people----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were so-called--what do you call--displaced persons, who were grabbed by the Germans and displaced in Germany, and then the American soldiers grabbed them and married them. Both of them were the same type. Very nice people, but they had a different background.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this party occurred on the 28th and 29th of December.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as I remember, it was around New Year's Day.

Mr. JENNER. And it was at the Declan Fords?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was George Bouhe there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. And Mr. and Mrs. Meller?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so, too. And a lot of other people.

Mr. JENNER. There is another Ray couple, Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not know.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. C. E. Harris?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall them.

Mr. JENNER. Charles E. Harris?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I recall this person. He is a tall man with grayish hair.

Mr. JENNER. From Georgetown, Tex.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A tall man with grayish hair.

Mr. JENNER. His wife was Russian born.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know them well. I probably would recognize them if I saw them.

Mr. JENNER. Were there some people by the name of Jackson at that party who had a very lavish house?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Jackson? I know a Jackson who has a very lavish house. He is a geologist also. But I do not recall seeing them at the party.

Mr. JENNER. There is some testimony that in the early morning hours the party adjourned to the Jackson's house.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had already left.

Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall. They were there.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. I met them, I think, only once--I met her twice or three times. I recall her pretty well. But I do not recall him.

Mr. JENNER. Tatiana Biggers.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the person I could not identify. I don't know who she is.

Mr. JENNER. Also present, Lydia Dymitruk.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. I think I remember her.

Mr. JENNER. A single person, divorced.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think I remember her.

Mr. JENNER. Slightly built, slender, short.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember her. She was married to some "cuckoo nut," another "cuckoo nut" who escaped from Soviet Russia--Dymitruk. He came to ask me for a job, her husband. He came to ask me for a job several times, and then he disappeared.

Mr. JENNER. Lydia Dymitruk's husband?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; her ex-husband. I understand she is a very nice person, very hard working, and is making a living for herself, and that she left him. That is my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. You brought the Oswalds to the party?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Having asked previously either myself or my wife--having asked Mrs. Ford would she mind having the Oswalds, because they seemed to be bored to death, especially Marina seemed to be bored to death. And she said yes.

Mr. JENNER. And after a while you folks left, around midnight?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you take the Oswalds with you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we did. And this is the reason why--because I think they left the child in our house while they came to the party, and we asked another friend of ours, an elderly lady, Mrs. Frangipanni, to take care of the baby while they were gone, which she did.

Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald drink at that party?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not recall. I know I drank quite a few glasses.

Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to how the people at the party reacted to Marina and to Oswald--take them separately.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not pay any attention. I left them to their own devices. I spoke to various people. I thought I had done my duty by bringing them along. What really impressed me that particular night was an extraordinary interest which developed between this Japanese girl, Yaeko--I don't remember her last name--but I already had given that impression of mine at the American Embassy so they could check on that. She was a Japanese girl, very good looking, who worked, I think, at Neiman-Marcus in Dallas, and was brought into Dallas from Japan by some people in the cotton business to take care of their babies.

Now, this girl is a much superior girl as to be just a baby caretaker. She eventually left that couple--that is all hearsay, you see, and became sort of a girl friend of a Russian musician who lives in Dallas by the name of Lev Aronson. And I do not recall whether he was at the party or not. But Yaeko was, and they developed an immediate interest in each other--Oswald and Yaeko. They just went on sight and started talking and talking and talking. I thought that was understandable because Oswald had been in Japan, you see. But the interest was so overwhelming that Marina objected, and became very jealous. She told us, either that night or later, that Oswald got her telephone number, she noticed that Oswald got this girl's telephone number. And once or twice later on she told us that she has the impression that Oswald is carrying on something with this girl. Now, this is hearsay again. But----

Mr. JENNER. Well, it is not hearsay that Marina told you.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but hearsay that they are carrying something on. That is what she told us. But nothing definite.

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any incidents in which--at that party--in which people----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife will tell you more about this Yaeko incident, because she knows a little bit better.

Mr. JENNER. I will make a note of that so I can talk to her about it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And she is more on the gossipy side. I'm always happy if a girl likes a boy and a boy likes a girl--it does not matter who they are.

Mr. JENNER. Were there any incidents that you recall in which members at that party were talking with Marina and Oswald interrupted?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I do not recall, because I did not speak to them. I just left them alone, hoping that they would find some people to talk to.

Mr. JENNER. And the contacts you had with Marina and Lee, was there ever any discussion on the subject of whether people in Russia when they were there were chary about talking with Lee because they were afraid he might be an agent of some kind?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a question I have to try to think a little bit about.

I have a vague recollection that either Lee or Marina did tell me the people were afraid of him, and I think that was probably Oswald that told me, that the people were afraid of him, like many foreigners. So I thought that was very understandable, because you know the Communists are scared--not the Communists, but the people in Russia are scared to talk to foreigners.

We had an incident ourselves when we went to Mexico, to a Russian exhibit, to a Russian Fair, and tried to speak to an architect there in charge of the architectural exhibit. This was a lady architect, a charming woman. We spoke to her for about 5 minutes, and then she disappeared, and you could not find her any more. She ran away from us. She was scared of us. That is the usual thing.

So I did not pay particular attention to that fact. If people were scared of talking to Oswald, it was understandable.

Mr. JENNER. Did that ever arise, discussions as to why--possibly affecting his desire to return to the United States?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. The most important answer I think I got from Oswald--and that was one of the reasons we liked him and thought that he was rather intelligent in his estimation of Soviet Russia--is the fact that we asked him, both my wife and I, "Why did you leave Soviet Russia", and he said very sincerely, "Because I did not not find what I was looking for."

Mr. JENNER. And did you ask him what he was looking for?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A Utopia. I knew what he was looking for--Utopia. And that does not exist any place.

Mr. JENNER. This man could not find what he was looking for anywhere in this world.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He could not find it in the States, he could not find it any place.

Mr. JENNER. He could find it only in him.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. He could find it in himself, in a false image of grandeur that he built in himself. But at the time that we knew him that was not so obvious. Now you can see that, as a possible murderer of the President of the United States, he must have been unbelievably egotistical, an unbelievably egotistical person.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know what paranoia is?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know it very well.

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because I am interested in medicine.

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any tendencies--this may be rationalization, of course, now that you are thinking back.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would call him a stage below definite paranoia, which means a highly neurotic individual. But even an M.D. would not give you a right definition, or a right demarcation between the two.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling, while you knew him, and before this tragic event occurred, that there was any mental aberration of that nature?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know anything about his background, you see. I did not know anything about his previous background, except that he had been in the Marine Corps, that he came from a poor family, that he had lived in New Orleans. That is all I knew about him.

Mr. JENNER. I wanted to ask you about that. Was your discussion with him as to his background, let us say, if I may use a conclusion myself, superficial?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very superficial, because I was not--I know that type of person, I know his background. I know the people in New Orleans. I lived there. I know people in Texas of the very low category. I know the way they live. I could see clearly what type of background he had. I did not have to ask him questions. And he mentioned that while living in New Orleans, and very poorly, he started going to the public library to read the Marxist books, all by himself. That he was not induced by anybody. I said, "Who told you to read the Marxist books"--that interested me. And he said, "Nobody, I went by myself. I started studying it all by myself."

Mr. JENNER. He read those high-level books, but in your opinion he did not understand them?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would not understand them. I would not bother reading them. I never read any Marxist books, because I know what they contain.

Mr. JENNER. But you could read them with a critical mind, could you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I could read with a critical mind. But that is something that does not interest me. And I know that they are very difficult. I know that they are written in a difficult manner, that they are highly theoretical, and to me very boring.

Mr. JENNER. There is some intimation that at this party Oswald had said several times that he liked Russia and he might go back. Did you overhear any of that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. And from all your contact with him, had he ever expressed that notion to you, that he might go back?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall exactly, but something comes to my mind that he might have mentioned that, that if he does not get a better job, or if he does not become successful, he might as well go back to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Well, this was really something said in despair.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. More or less--"After all, what is my life in Russia"--I remember he said that, that his life in Russia was actually better than here. But Marina never said that.

Mr. JENNER. She didn't?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember some people at that party by the name of Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan of Lafayette, La., a divisional geologist for Continental Oil Co.?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at that party about the possibility that Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard that.

Mr. JENNER. And that this theory was thrown out because Oswald was broke, and that it could not be that way, because Russia would not permit one of its agents to be that penniless?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an intelligent estimation, but I certainly have not heard that.

Mr. JENNER. Any discussion there or speculation that there was something peculiar in the fact that allegedly they had had little trouble in getting Marina out of Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That he had trouble getting her out?

Mr. JENNER. Relatively little.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is a question that always was sort of a big question mark to me. Not being interested, I did not probe them. But it always remained a question mark in my mind, how is it possible for somebody to take a citizen of Soviet Russia so easily out of the country. But I have known of other examples of it being done.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time while you knew the Oswalds about any attempt to commit suicide?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When he was in Russia, no; I don't remember anything about that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever notice he had a scar on his left wrist?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't notice it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever note whether he was right or left handed?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely I remember that he might be left handed but I could not recall.

Mr. JENNER. This is pure vagueness on your part?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very, very. My wife may recall that.

Mr. JENNER. You wouldn't want to express any opinion one way or the other on it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him his experiences in Russia with respect to hunting?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have.

Mr. JENNER. No discussions?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Or the use of any weapons or his right to have weapons when he was in Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know even that he was interested in weapons 'til the day--which probably you will ask me later on--Easter, I think, when my wife saw his gun. I didn't know he was interested. I didn't know he had the gun. I didn't know he was interested in shooting or hunting. I didn't know he was a good shot or never had any impression.

Mr. JENNER. Now that you have mentioned that we might as well cover that fully in the record.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that incident.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That incident is very clear in my mind.

Mr. JENNER. This was in 1963?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1963, and the last time we saw them.

Mr. JENNER. It was the last time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The very last time we saw them.

Mr. JENNER. This was around Eastertime?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Around Eastertime.

Mr. JENNER. In April?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In April. It was in the second apartment that they had.

Mr. JENNER. That was on Neely Street?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On Neely I think one block from the previous place they used to live.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And Jeanne told me that day, "Let's go and take a rabbit for Oswald's baby."

Mr. JENNER. This was on Easter Sunday?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Easter day. I don't remember it was Easter Sunday.

Mr. JENNER. Easter is always on Sunday.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; maybe it was the day before, the day after, but I think it was on the holiday. Maybe my wife will remember the date exactly. And so we drove over quite late in the evening and walked up--I think they were asleep. They were asleep and we knocked at the door and shouted, and Lee Oswald came down undressed, half undressed you see, maybe in shorts, and opened the door and we told him that we have the rabbit for the child. And it was a very short visit, you know. We just gave the rabbit to the baby and I was talking to Lee while Jeanne was talking to Marina about something which is immaterial which I do not recall right now, and all of a sudden----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Mr. Reporter, Jeanne is spelled J-e-a-n-n-e.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I think Oswald and I were standing near the window looking outside and I was asking him "How is your job" or "Are you making any money? Are you happy," some question of that type. All of a sudden Jeanne who was with Marina in the other room told me "Look, George, they have a gun here." And Marina opened the closet and showed it to Jeanne, a gun that belonged obviously to Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. This was a weapon? Did you go in and look?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't look at the gun. I was still standing. The closet was open. Jeanne was looking at it, at the gun, and I think she asked Marina "what is that" you see. That was the sight on the gun. "What is that? That looks like a telescopic sight." And Marina said "That crazy idiot is target shooting all the time." So frankly I thought it was ridiculous to shoot target shooting in Dallas, you see, right in town. I asked him "Why do you do that?"

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He said "I go out and do target shooting. I like target shooting." So out of the pure, really jokingly I told him "Are you then the guy who took a pot shot at General Walker?" And he smiled to that, because just a few days before there was an attempt at General Walker's life, and it was very highly publicized in the papers, and I knew that Oswald disliked General Walker, you see. So I took a chance and I asked him this question, you see, and I can clearly see his face, you know.

He sort of shriveled, you see, when I asked this question.

Mr. JENNER. He became tense?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Became tense, you see, and didn't answer anything, smiled, you know, made a sarcastic--not sarcastic, made a peculiar face.

Mr. JENNER. The expression on his face?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, changed the expression on his face.

Mr. JENNER. You saw that your remark to him----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had an effect on him.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Had an effect on him. But naturally he did not say yes or no, but that was it. That is the whole incident. I remember after we were leaving, Marina went in the garden and picked up a large bouquet of roses for us. They have nice roses downstairs and gave us the roses to thank for the gift of the rabbit.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when you came to their home----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Excuse me, before I forget I wanted to insist on one thing which I meant to tell you before that. What was the main thing that I really liked about Oswald, you see. You asked me that question before.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was ferociously, maybe too much so, for integration, advocate of integration. He said that it was hurting him, the fact that the colored people did not have the same rights as the white ones, and this is my opinion also, you see. I was very strongly opposed to segregation, and I am sometimes very violent on that subject, because it hurts me that I live in Texas you know and I do not have colored friends. I cannot afford to have colored friends, you see. It annoys me. It hurts me. I am ashamed of myself. And I try to make some friends among the colored people and the situation is such that it is hard to keep their friendship in Texas, you know. So I know what the situation is. On that point Oswald and I agreed. And this is another reason why Oswald and Bouhe fought so bitterly, because Bouhe is a segregationist. He is an old-guard segregationist that he learned from the Texans you know that the colored man is just a flunky. And I had quite a few fights with him about that, with Bouhe. And possibly his animosity, Oswald's animosity to Bouhe and vice versa were based on that, you see, although I am not so sure about it. But I assumed that that was one of the reasons.

And I think that was a very sincere attitude on his behalf, very sincere.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to this gun, this weapon incident, the Walker incident.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion after this time, when you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came to see the Oswalds, that as soon as you opened the door, you said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. I don't recall that incident.

Mr. JENNER. You have now given me your full recollection of that entire rifle incident?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Weapon incident, and what you said to him?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes, yes, yes; that is right. How could I have--my recollections are vague, of course, but how could I have said that when I didn't know that he had a gun you see. I was standing there and then Jeanne told us or Marina, you know, the incident just as I have described it, that here is a gun, you see. I remember very distinctly saying, "Did you take the potshot at General Walker?"

The same meaning you know, "Did you miss him," about the same meaning? I didn't want him to shoot Walker. I don't go to that extent you see.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't want him to shoot anybody?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Anybody. I didn't want him to shoot anybody. But if somebody has a gun with a telescopic lens you see, and knowing that he hates the man, it is a logical assumption you see.

Mr. JENNER. You knew at that time that he had a definite bitterness for General Walker?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I definitely knew that, either from some conversations we had on General Walker, you know--this was the period of General Walker's, you know, big showoff, you know.

Mr. JENNER. He was quite militant wasn't he.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, up to that moment, is it your testimony that you never knew and had no inkling whatsoever, that the Oswalds had a rifle or other weapon in their home?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely positive that personally I didn't know a damn thing about it, positive, neither did my wife.

Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know your wife didn't either?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see the weapon?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not see the weapon.

Mr. JENNER. I won't show it to you then. Was there any discussion about the weapon thereafter?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no discussion. That ended the conversation, the remark about Walker, ended the conversation. There was a silence after that, and we changed the subject and left very soon afterwards.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a feeling that he was uncomfortable?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very, very uncomfortable, but I still did not believe that he did it, you see. It was frankly a stupid joke on my part. As the time goes by it shows that sometimes it is not so stupid. But you know my wife will tell you probably that I have a very stupid, bad sense of humor, she says, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Some people say you have a sadistic sense of humor.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly. She says so also, my wife usually says that I like to tease people.

Mr. JENNER. And you do, don't you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She dislikes it. I like to, certainly, and I don't mind if people tease me. I never get mad you know. It is perfectly all right if somebody teases me.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a member of a group in Dallas known as the Bohemian Club?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about the Bohemian Club. Did you organize it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Mr. Ballen and I organized it together and the occasion arose one day when Mr. Ballen and I were driving back from a well, an oil well we were driving far away from Dallas. It was a long drive and we were discussing our lives in Dallas and a little bit exchange about the sort of boring people we have around in Dallas you know, nothing but Texans. And then by God, says Ballen, "We should do something about it. We should organize--there are some interesting people in Dallas. We should organize a group for free discussion. And also we should put--we all like to eat well. Let's combine it with good eating." And that is how the idea originated.

Mr. JENNER. And you called it what?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We called it the Bohemian Club, a little bit based on the Bohemian Club in San Francisco. And we invited--we decided to invite people who are sort of unusual and in different professions, and that no business should be discussed during the meetings, that the member whose turn it is to make a speech should also provide the dinner, and either cook it himself or his wife would cook it or he should invite all of us to a restaurant of his choice. This lasted I guess for a year or 2 years you know. We had quite a few meetings, very interesting, controversial meetings, because the main point was that you had to express yourself freely on the subject which is very important to you. Then followed a discussion of all the other members.

Mr. JENNER. On the subject.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On the subject.

Mr. JENNER. Was it intended that the discussions be provocative or presented in a provocative fashion?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As much as possible, and we had some real lulus there, some very provocative discussions.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion when you had this club at your home or restaurant that you supplied the meal?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; one day I think I made one particular speech that I made on the subject of Vlacsov's Army which are the White Russians and refugees who decided to fight with the Germans against Soviet Russia. They were helped by General Vlacsov who was a Soviet General, and then later on became Commander, was made prisoner by the Germans and then decided to fight the Communists, because obviously he was dissatisfied with the Stalinist regime, and it was quite a large group. I never met any people of that type, but Mr. Voshinin provided me the material on that subject, and I made this little speech and I think everybody was very satisfied with the speech except Lev Aronson who is a Jewish friend, a Jewish friend of mine who was in the German concentration camp and he obviously had met some of those Vlacsov soldiers, and anyway he criticized me quite a lot on that speech.

Mr. JENNER. Did he criticize you during the course of the meeting?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. During the course of the meal?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you accuse anybody of being a Nazi?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did he accuse?

Mr. JENNER. Did you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I accuse anybody?

Mr. JENNER. In the way of provoking the discussion?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of provoking the discussion? I don't remember that. Possibly I had, but I don't remember that. Actually he accused me more or less of being pro-Nazi by giving that speech you see. He accused me of being, which I am not you know, but that expresses my opinion of the difficulty that sometimes the refugees are in when their opinions, political opinions, differ with their own country you see. Those are the people who are fighting their own country because they were deeply inside anti-communists, you see. I didn't say that I was all for them you see. I just described this as an interesting incident because I just read a book on that subject or something you know, and I thought that it was an interesting incident of the last war that occurred.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Oswald operate an automobile?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I had the impression that he didn't know how to drive and I was quite surprised----

Mr. JENNER. What gave you the impression that he didn't know how to drive?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I couldn't swear to that, but I think I asked him "Do you know how to drive an automobile? Why don't you buy yourself an automobile?" I remember saying.

Mr. JENNER. Where would he get the money?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know you can buy a car for $20, or $30, some old wreck, and somebody with any mechanical ability could fix it.

Mr. JENNER. What was his response to that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have the impression that he said that he didn't know how to drive, but I couldn't swear to that. And naturally Marina was needling him all the time to buy an automobile.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, she was?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she was.

Mr. JENNER. You have a definite impression?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A definite impression of that. She was needling him.

Mr. JENNER. Apart from an impression, as a matter of fact you were present and knew she was needling him to purchase an automobile?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could almost swear to that, but again it is so vague I could not recall the exact words, you see.

Mr. JENNER. But you do have a definite impression of that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I have a definite impression of that. I might have put it in her mind you know. Either my wife or I might have put it in her mind because it is incomprehensible to live in Texas without an automobile. It is not like New York. They were completely isolated where they were living, you see.

Mr. JENNER. And you were suggesting it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I might have suggested it.

Mr. JENNER. Because of that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Or my wife.

Mr. JENNER. What impression, if you have any, do you have with respect to his sexual habits? Did you ever have any thoughts?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As to whether he was a homosexual?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. He was not in your opinion?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so, I think he was an asexual person, asexual, and as I told you before, Marina was bitterly complaining about her lack of satisfaction. This is really the time that we decided just to drop them you see. One of the reasons you see we decided not to see them again, because we both found it revolting, such a discussion of marital habits in front of relative strangers as we were, see.

Mr. JENNER. And this occurred more than once?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see this occurred probably in the first period when we knew Oswald. You know there was a first period when we knew them, until about October. Then we didn't see them any more, and I think it was caused by many factors you know. We just got tired of them. We didn't like them. We did not like this particular remark about sex life, and other things you know. We just were not interested in them, and then the fact that she returned back to Oswald, see what I mean, after we had taken her away from him, that she went back to him that disgusted us.

We told her, "Now we helped you. We are not going to do anything more about you." And we didn't see them in October, November, December, see.

Mr. JENNER. Except for this party?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Except for the party, and then Christmas came and we thought well, the Oswalds all by themselves you know. It is Christmas time, we should take them out. For that period they were completely out of my mind you see. Then we decided to take them out, and I think it was in January after this party that we took them again to meet Everett Glover.

Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think actually there were two parties that we took them to. One at Ford's and the other at Everett Glover's. No, pardon me, I made a mistake. We took them also, both of them one afternoon, and I think it was still in the first period of us knowing them, to the house of Admiral Bruton who is a friend of ours, and a retired U.S. Admiral who works in Dallas and has; both he and his wife are good friends of ours. And they are very kind people.

Mrs. Bruton loves the children. She is a grandmother, and we told her that here we have that miserable couple with a child, could we bring them to the pool 1 day? And she said "fine, bring them along." And we brought them to the pool, and no sooner the admiral saw Oswald you know, and heard a few words from him, he said "take this guy away from me." This Bruton was quite a hero in the war you know, and he immediately sensed that Oswald was a revolutionary character you see, and no good. He sensed that, being a military man you see. I think he asked him a few questions "is it true that you were in the Marine Corps?" And Oswald made kind of a sour face about the Marine Corps. So it was very short and very unpleasant interview because the admiral left you know, and his wife, being a kind person, stayed there for a while you know, and then we took the Oswalds back again.

Mr. JENNER. You never did use the pool?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They never used the pool because I don't think Oswald liked swimming. And just recently I got a letter from Mrs. Bruton in Paris saying "is that the same man that you brought once to my house?" She has been reading the story of Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. When you went over to pick up the Oswalds to take them to that Christmas party did you enter their home?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is just vague to me. I don't remember how we got them. Whether I did or my wife did--I do not recall how it was done.

Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you whether you noticed if they had a Christmas tree or any indication of celebration of Christmas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have some vague recollection of some kind of celebration but I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to whether he did or didn't believe in Christmas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I assumed that he did not. Marina was naturally interested in Christmas.

Mr. JENNER. She was?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was.

Mr. JENNER. Did the Oswalds, either together or separately, come to your home frequently or several times and spend the day with you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I was trying to pin down how many times we saw them in all, and it is very hard you know. I would say between 10 and 12 times, maybe more. It is very hard to say.

Usually they were together.

Mr. JENNER. She come alone?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes she came alone; yes. I don't recall his coming all by himself. I don't recall any incident.

Mr. JENNER. There was some testimony to the effect--I want you to pause before I ask you another question, exhaust your recollection on this.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when they came in the morning and stayed all day?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina might have stayed all day you see, or 3 or 4 hours you see. My wife will remember, will have a better recollection of that, because I was at that time busy on three projects, and really my mind was on something else, you see.

Mr. JENNER. Having exhausted your recollection, there is testimony to the effect, about Marina, that "we used to come early in the morning, and leave at night. We would spend the entire day with them. We went by bus."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By bus? My wife will remember that better. Possibly I was not at home you see. I was running around doing business, my business you know.

Mr. JENNER. You came to their home for short visits?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I came to their home for short visits, and sometimes would find Marina alone, maybe twice, something like that you see, would find Marina alone, and ask her, "How are you getting along? Goodbye."

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever visit them and bring some foodstuffs?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. My wife will remember that better than I do.

Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection in any degree, testimony that "the De Mohrenschildts visited us, they usually came for short visits. They brought their own favorite vegetables such as cucumbers. George likes cucumbers."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I like cucumbers, and I am sure that my wife will remember that, because it was her idea, not mine. She was in charge of food you know. If they did spend the whole day with us, it is possible it was at the very beginning when my wife took Marina to the doctor, you know, and then brought her back again, something like that. I don't remember seeing them in the house all day long.

Mr. JENNER. But they might have been there all day long when you weren't around.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They might have been, might have been. My wife will remember that, you see.

Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when they had meals at your house?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I think so. I think so. I don't remember the exact occasion but I am sure that we fed them quite often, because they were hungry.

Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact you went out of your way to see that they were fed?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; I think so. My wife did, not I.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on your part with Oswald with respect to his family, his mother, his brothers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is very interesting. I remember distinctly that Marina especially told me that they had lived with the brother, and that he told them to leave the house. Now we assumed that it was----

Mr. JENNER. Recapture your recollection a little more about this.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is something to that effect, you know, and it was a little bit surprising to me, and then after seeing her for a little while, I realized why they did, because she was incredibly lazy you see. She wouldn't help anybody.

Mr. JENNER. Who was incredibly lazy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina, very lazy, wouldn't help anybody with anything. When she stayed for instance with the Mellers, and the baby you see, Mrs. Meller told us that she wouldn't help her at all, you know, around the house.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Would sit there and smoke and do nothing. Now I have a recollection, a vague recollection of Lee telling me that he didn't get along with his mother. Actually it was surprising how little he spoke about his family. It was just something completely that was not discussed you know.

He didn't talk about it. But I have a vague recollection that he disliked his mother. He didn't get along with his mother, and Marina disliked the mother.

Mr. JENNER. Marina disliked the mother also?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina disliked the mother also.

Mr. JENNER. You have a definite recollection of that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a recollection of some kind, not in any exact words, but that is the impression I had.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion or did you become aware that they had lived also with the mother as well as the brother?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that.

Mr. JENNER. But you have a definite recollection that Marina had met the mother and had a reaction to her?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Oh, that she met the mother, definitely. I assumed that you knew.

Mr. JENNER. And that reaction was an unfavorable one?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Unfavorable reaction, and possibly my wife will remember more than I do.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get any reaction as to how Oswald felt with respect to his brother?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Again a vague idea that he did not get along with his brother.

Mr. JENNER. Did you become aware that he had two brothers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't even know he had two brothers.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any occasion when it came to your attention that there was any alarm on Marina's part with respect to Lee possibly inflicting some harm on Vice President Nixon, or former Vice President Nixon?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. That doesn't ring a bell at all?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It doesn't ring a bell at all. But what I wanted to underline, that was always amazing to me, that as far as I am concerned he was an admirer of President Kennedy.

Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about that.

Tell me the discussions you had in that connection. Did you have some discussions with him?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just occasional sentences, you know. I think once I mentioned to him that I met Mrs. Kennedy when she was a child you know, she was a very strong-willed child, very intelligent and very attractive child you see, and a very attractive family, and I thought that Kennedy was doing a very good job with regard to the racial problem, you know. We never discussed anything else. And he also agreed with me, "Yes, yes, yes; I think it is an excellent President, young, full of energy, full of good ideas."

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever indicate any resentment of Mr. Kennedy's wealth?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is definitely a point there, you know. He did not indicate, but he hated wealth, period, you see. Lee Oswald hated wealth, and I do not recall the exact words, but this is something that you could feel in him, you see. And since he was very poor, you know, I could see why he did, you see. I even would tell him sometimes, "That is ridiculous. Wealth doesn't make happiness and you can be poor and be happy, you can be wealthy and be very unhappy; it doesn't matter." I met a lot of wealthy people in my life and found that quite a few of them are very unhappy and I have met quite a few poor people and they are very happy. So it is nothing to be jealous of.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him Governor Connally?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never discussed it with him.