Chapter XXX: Part 30

Mrs. PAINE. I was at that time standing here [indicating].

Mr. JENNER. And would you remain there--Mrs. Paine is now standing at the corner of the--southeast corner of the work bench about a foot away from the work bench; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. The officer asked me if Oswald had a rifle and I answered, "No," to him and he turned to Marina who was standing at the----

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you move to where Marina was standing?

Mrs. PAINE. Right here in the middle of this----

Mr. JENNER. I'll get that out of your way----

Mrs. PAINE. Let's just move that across there. She was standing here facing south.

Mr. JENNER. She was facing you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, she was.

Mr. JENNER. And the witness is now about a foot in from the north end of the work bench and to, necessarily, the east work bench.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. She was standing there facing and looking at you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she was.

Mr. JENNER. And you in turn--your back was to the overhead garage door, which was in place?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And you were facing north?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes--I translated the question, asking Marina if she knew if Lee had a rifle, and she said, "Yes"--she had seen some time previously--seen a rifle which she knew to be his in this roll, which she indicated the blanket roll.

Mr. JENNER. When she said that, did she point to the blanket roll?

Mrs. PAINE. She indicated to me in her language. My best recollection is that she did not point, so that I was the one who knew and then translated.

Mr. JENNER. Now, she said she had seen a rifle in the blanket wrapped package?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which you had already noticed some time prior thereto?

Mrs. PAINE. And as she described this, I stepped onto the blanket.

Mr. JENNER. The wrapped package?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and then translated to the police officers what she had said.

Mr. JENNER. And when you stepped on the blanket wrapped package, did you feel anything hard?

Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me there was something hard in it.

Mr. JENNER. At that time when you stepped on it?

Mrs. PAINE. At that time.

Mr. JENNER. Did it seem like something hard in the sense of a rifle or a tent pole or anything as bulky as that?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I would say nothing as irregular as a rifle.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, as I recall your testimony, one of the policemen stooped down and picked up the blanket wrapped package about in its center, having in mind its length?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And when he did that, did the blanket remain firm and horizontal?

Mrs. PAINE. It wilted.

Mr. JENNER. It drooped?

Mrs. PAINE. It folded.

Mr. JENNER. It just folded, and from that you concluded there was nothing in the package?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. In the blanket?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that the four string wrappings were still on the blanket?

Mrs. PAINE. That's my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. And you heard no crinkling of paper or otherwise?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, you testified last week before the Commission that you keep a supply of wrapping paper?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where do you normally keep it?

Mrs. PAINE. (At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the area of the garage and returned to the kitchen-dining room area.) I keep it as I explained at the Commission hearings, in the bottom drawer of a large secretary desk in the dining area.

Mr. JENNER. And you have just leaned down and taken a tube of what looks like wrapping paper from that drawer, have you not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And, is that the remains of the tube of wrapping paper that you had in your home on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. No, this is a new one, similar to the old one.

Mr. JENNER. Did you purchase it at the same place that you purchased the previous wrapping paper?

Mrs. PAINE. I purchased the rolls at some dime store.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, would you measure that wrapping paper?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 6 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would I have your permission to take about a yard of this?

Mrs. PAINE. Take all you want.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to take enough of it so I will get a sheet that is longer than it is wide. What did you say it was wide?

Agent HOWLETT. Two feet 6 inches.

Mr. JENNER. All right, would you hold one end of that, Mr. Howlett, please. We will now measure this.

Agent HOWLETT. That is 3 feet 1 inch.

Mr. JENNER. And now, Mrs. Paine, do you have a scissors, and would you please cut this?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, cut the paper referred to.)

Mr. JENNER. We will mark the sheet of wrapping paper which we have just cut from a roll of wrapping paper as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272." Would you mark that, please, Miss Reporter?

(At this point the reporter marked the paper referred to as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, all I have to say is that this paper is startlingly like the wrapping paper that I exhibited to you in the Commission hearing last week.

Mrs. PAINE. It is wrapping paper for mailing books and other such articles.

Mr. JENNER. It is a good weight. You have, I notice, now in your hand, some sealing tape or paper sticky tape, am I correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. From where did you obtain that?

Mrs. PAINE. From the same bottom drawer.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a supply of that sticky tape in your home on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this is the remainder of that.

Mr. JENNER. This is the remainder of a roll you had at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Would you cut a slip of that for us?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

Miss Reporter, would you mark the strip of sticky tape I now hand you as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273"?

(Paper referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you now have that bottom drawer of your desk secretary open, and I see the remains of a ball of string.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Two balls of string, one dark brown string and one white string?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As I recall your testimony with respect to the wrappings on this package--the string was white string and not the dark brown string?

Mrs. PAINE. That's my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Does your now seeing the remains of the additional string you have uncovered from the bottom drawer of your secretary serve to refresh your recollection, even further, as to whether that was about the weight of the string on the blanket wrapped package?

Mrs. PAINE. It looks rather thin to me, rather thinner than the string on the package, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. We will take a sample of that, and that will be marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274."

(String referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. You also have something that is really rope in your hand now. Did you obtain that from that drawer?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say that was too heavy or heavier?

Mrs. PAINE. I would say it is heavier; yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right, we will not bother with that in the record.

Mrs. Paine, you recall your testimony with respect to what I called the Mexico note.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I forget the Commission exhibit number, but that will identify it. It is a note you found one Sunday morning.

Mrs. PAINE. That's right--having already noticed it but not having read it the previous day.

Mr. JENNER. And, is this the secretary to which you made reference, the desk secretary--the piece of furniture from which you have obtained the wrapping paper, the sticky paper, and the string I latterly described?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not.

Mr. JENNER. Where is that desk secretary located?

Mrs. PAINE. That desk secretary is in the living room.

Mr. JENNER. Is the desk secretary in the position now as it was on that Sunday morning?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not.

Mr. JENNER. Would you locate in your living room where that desk secretary was, if it is not here?

Mrs. PAINE. It was in the middle of the space between the--the middle of the north wall of the living room.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the north wall of the living room presently has a sofa or a couch?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, therefore, that sofa or couch was not in that position?

Mrs. PAINE. That sofa has exchanged places with the small desk secretary.

Mr. JENNER. And the desk secretary is now on the east wall of your living room; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Please tell me where the television set was on the afternoon of the day--on the afternoon of November the 22d when the police called at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. It was then where it is now.

Mr. JENNER. And it is now located against the south wall of the living room between the picture window facing on Fifth Street and the doorway entering into your home?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you testified as I recall, that you and Marina were sitting on the sofa looking at television. Where was the sofa located at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. On the 22d, the sofa was where it is now, as is true of all the other furniture in the room.

Mr. JENNER. So, that, therefore, I conclude that from the time on the Sunday morning that you looked at the Mexico note and made a copy of it and November 22, you had rearranged your furniture?

Mrs. PAINE. I rearranged it on the evening of the 10th of November--that same day that I read the note.

Mr. JENNER. That was a Sunday?

Mrs. PAINE. That was.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee Oswald and your husband, Michael, assisted you?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. As I recall your testimony was that before they began to move the furniture at your request you saw the Mexico note on top of the secretary and you put it in one of the drawers of the secretary?

Mrs. PAINE. I opened the flip front and put it in there.

Mr. JENNER. Consequently, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, when you were looking at television, you and Marina were facing out--facing toward Fifth Street?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were the drapes on your picture window which I see on the south wall, drawn back?

Mrs. PAINE. They were not closed.

Mr. JENNER. They were not closed?

Mrs. PAINE. They were covering perhaps a foot of the window on each side.

Mr. JENNER. Were you so intent, you and Marina, from looking at the television that you did not notice the police come in to your door?

Mrs. PAINE. I think we could not have seen them coming to the door.

Mr. JENNER. Why not?

Mrs. PAINE. We were sitting here. I was in the middle of the sofa and Marina was to the west.

Mr. JENNER. She was to your right?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And you say you could not have seen them?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, there were several times--I don't----

Mr. JENNER. Well, at the instant of time they came, had you noticed them coming?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. You say you could not have seen them because, I take it [at this time Counsel Jenner with the assistance of the witness, Mrs. Paine, drew the living room drapes so that they no longer covered the living room windows]--because they approached the house from the driveway side, which is on the west?

Mrs. PAINE. Right, and as I recall, both of the cars that came in were parked to the west of my driveway.

Mr. JENNER. So, they would have come at an angle, which assuming the door was closed----

Mrs. PAINE. As it was.

Mr. JENNER. The door opening onto Fifth Street?

Mrs. PAINE. The door was closed.

Mr. JENNER. May the record show, and I will ask Mr. Howlett if he agrees, that under those circumstances, with the officers approaching from the west, that the ladies sitting on the sofa or couch could not have seen them as they approached from the west?

Agent HOWLETT. No.

Mr. JENNER. So, the first time, I gather you were aware that the police had arrived or come, was when the doorbell rang or they knocked on the door?

Mrs. PAINE. The bell rang and I was first aware of them when I opened the door.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we will get you, Odell, to come in here.

(At this point the reporter proceeded to the point designated by Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER. I will proceed to describe here your lawn and if you, John Joe, will come out and check me on it and will you stand in the doorway, Mrs. Paine, and would you check me, Mrs. Paine, as I recite these facts?

Mrs. PAINE. All right.

(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned assumed the places designated by Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER. That your home is well set back, we'll measure it in a moment, from the street, and it is a rather generous lawn with some bushes, the bushes are not solid as a screen, but they are up close to your home. The lawn area is entirely open except for the oak tree which I have heretofore described as being as a large generous shade tree about 2 feet in diameter. We will measure the circumference in a moment. John Joe, could we measure the distance from the south wall of the home to the sidewalk?

Agent HOWLETT. There is no sidewalk--there is a curb.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.

Agent HOWLETT. 42 feet.

Mr. JENNER. Will you come in, John, and recite in the presence of the reporter what that distance is?

The REPORTER. I have it in the record from his statement--42 feet.

Mr. JENNER. There is a roof or canopy over the porch entrance, the depth of which from the south wall to the south edge of the roof area is what, Mr. Howlett, to the south edge of the roofed area?

Agent HOWLETT. It would be 11 feet.

Mr. JENNER. And it is how wide from east to west?

Agent HOWLETT. Seven feet three inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is it not true that except for the porch canopy we have just measured, that the entire front lawn is open?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And unobstructed except for the tree?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in your testimony you stated that on the late afternoon of November 21 when you came home, you approached your home from what direction?

Mrs. PAINE. From the east.

Mr. JENNER. From the east and so you were driving west?

Mrs. PAINE. I was.

Mr. JENNER. And is it not true, as I look facing east now, I can see some considerable distance of a good block down the street?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And I am standing at the doorway entrance to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. About where you were when you first noticed to your surprise as I recall your testimony, that Lee Oswald was on the premises?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, I had just entered this block--that's across Westbrook.

Mr. JENNER. Across the cross street which is to the east of your home, which is named Westbrook?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that's how far?

Mrs. PAINE. Three houses down.

Mr. JENNER. Three homes down, and out on the lawn was Marina and June, their child?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then Rachel, I assume, was in her crib or somewhere in the house.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But she was not out on the lawn?

Mrs. PAINE. She was not out on the lawn.

Mr. JENNER. You pulled up in the driveway?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, off the record, I would like to go into that a little bit.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mrs. Paine off the record at this point.)

Mr. JENNER. All right. On the record. You came home that evening, you sighted your home and saw Lee Oswald out on the lawn, the front lawn, late in the afternoon of November 21, 1963, and you swung--you came to your home, pulled up in your driveway as is your usual custom and parked your car?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Had Lee Oswald noticed you then as you pulled in the driveway?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did he come over to your automobile?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did you greet him in any fashion?

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is I was already out of the automobile when we actually exchanged greetings.

Mr. JENNER. And did you express surprise that he was home that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not express it.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything indicating he knew he was there by surprise or at least unexpectedly?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did he do so at any time during the course of the evening?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. She expressed surprise to me, yes; and apologized.

Mr. JENNER. Apology for what?

Mrs. PAINE. For his having come without asking if he could.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether she was surprised?

Mrs. PAINE. My impression is she was surprised.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say so?

Mrs. PAINE. Not specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say she had not expected him?

Mrs. PAINE. That's the feeling I gathered.

Mr. JENNER. Well, from her facial expression, her mannerisms, her attitude--you had the very definite impression that his arrival was unexpected as far as she was concerned?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As well as yours?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, as I recall your testimony, you entered the garage that evening--you don't know how many times--you do have an icebox or deep freeze in the garage, do you not?

Mrs. PAINE. It's a deep freeze.

Mr. JENNER. And is it not a fact that the deep freeze is located right up against the wall separating the garage from the dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area, is that not correct, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that deep freeze, John Joe, is what in length?

Agent HOWLETT. Three feet four inches.

Mr. JENNER. And that length extends southwesterly from the garage dining room wall toward Fifth Street; correct?

Agent HOWLETT. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. And the deep freeze is how deep?

Agent HOWLETT. It is two feet six inches deep.

Mr. JENNER. And the deepness extends from the door jam, west edge of the door jam, westerly; is that correct?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes; to the wall.

Mr. JENNER. And how high is the deep freeze?

Agent HOWLETT. The deep freeze stands 3 feet 3 inches tall.

Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine, is that deep freeze the type of deep freeze that you uncover from the top, that is, the lid opens?

Agent HOWLETT. That's right.

Mrs. PAINE. It is known as a chest style.

Mr. JENNER. In preparing dinner, or even after dinner, your present recollection is--since it is so much your habit--you can't remember the number of times--it is your present recollection that in the ordinary course of attending to your home and preparing a meal that evening you would enter the garage at least going into some part of the deep freeze?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it highly probable.

Mr. JENNER. Did you prepare the meal that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you do anything else that evening in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do?

Mrs. PAINE. I lacquered two large box blocks.

Mr. JENNER. Would you obtain, if you can, from the box of blocks which I notice now in your living room, the two blocks you lacquered?

Mrs. PAINE. This is one.

Mr. JENNER. You say you lacquered two boxes or two blocks?

Mrs. PAINE. It's the same thing, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine has produced still another thing, and I take it, Mrs. Paine, that you meant two boxes?

Mrs. PAINE. I considered them blocks, but they do have the shape of a box. They are what I call a large hollow block.

Mr. JENNER. They in turn are processed in building to be solid blocks?

Mrs. PAINE. That's all right. I describe them as--they are sets--anything a child wishes to make it into for play.

Mr. JENNER. One of them right now in your living room contains wooden blocks, does it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the other is empty?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. John Joe, will you measure that which Mrs. Paine describes as a block and which I describe as a box?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 1/4-inch wide by 2 feet long.

Mr. JENNER. How deep?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 7-1/2 inches deep, with 1/2 inch press plywood on the bottom, makes it a total height of 8 inches.

Mr. JENNER. John Joe, is that which Mrs. Paine calls a block and I call a box, rectangular--it has a bottom, or at least it has a plate on one side and it is open on the top of it--the opposite side--is that not correct?

Agent HOWLETT. It is open on the top, yes. It is closed on the five sides and open on the top.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, just so we don't have any confusion in the record, is my description of this as being a box a fair description?

Mrs. PAINE. I will adopt it for our usage, for usage here.

Mr. JENNER. You are setting apart your sensitivity about blocks here?

Mrs. PAINE. That's quite all right--I will call it a box.

Mr. JENNER. And those two boxes or containers, you lacquered these that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. That evening.

Mr. JENNER. How long did that take you?

Mrs. PAINE. About half an hour.

Mr. JENNER. And where were you working?

Mrs. PAINE. I was using the top of the deep freeze as a work space. I had to walk from there to the work bench to get the lacquer and the brush.

Mr. JENNER. Which end of the work bench, the south or the north end?

Mrs. PAINE. The north end.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what time of the evening, and I take it it was the evening, am I correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. What time of the evening was it, approximately, when you entered the garage to lacquer the two boxes?

Mrs. PAINE. It was 9 o'clock or a little bit after.

Mr. JENNER. Were the two boxes inside your home, and did you take them into the garage, or were they in the garage when you prepared to lacquer them?

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that one was in the house and one was in the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Well, where was the one in the garage located when you went into the garage to lacquer?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. It was not on top of the deep freeze, was it?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it's very likely it was in the central area.

Mr. JENNER. Somewhere near the blanket wrapped package?

Mrs. PAINE. Somewhat near the saw.

Mr. JENNER. The circular saw or the band saw?

Mrs. PAINE. The circular saw, I think, but I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when you did open the garage, the entrance to the garage----

Mrs. PAINE. You mean the overhead door?

Mr. JENNER. No; the regular door into the garage.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh--that--yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Without offending you, Mrs. Paine, I assume that that door to the garage is normally--you are careful to keep it closed?

Mrs. PAINE. I am, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection it was closed on this particular occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was.

Mr. JENNER. You opened the door, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was the first thing that arrested your attention when you opened the door, if anything?

Mrs. PAINE. I was arrested by the fact that the light was on.

Mr. JENNER. The light where?

Mrs. PAINE. In the garage.

Mr. JENNER. The overhead light?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That headlight is approximately in the center of the ceiling of the garage, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I believe it is.

Agent HOWLETT. It may be slightly to the center.

Mr. JENNER. It is roughly to the center and the socket instrument looks like a porcelain socket that extends out from the ceiling and hangs downwardly, as a matter of fact, perpendicular to the floor or the ceiling; is that not right?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That bulb that's in there now, Mrs. Paine, was that bulb in place on the night in question?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. And the ceiling fixture is unshaded, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. So, that, the bulb itself is bright and glaring?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. John Joe, would you take a look at that bulb and see what watt it is?

Agent HOWLETT. It is a 100-watt bulb, I just looked at it.

Mr. JENNER. And it is quite bright, is it not?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; especially with the white reflection off of the white walls.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; this garage is painted white, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The garage door is a medium shade of grey, and when I say "garage door" I mean the overhead door, which is now in place, the inside facing, which I see from this doorway?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You noticed that the light was on?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Why was that something that drew your attention?

Mrs. PAINE. I knew that I had not left it on.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any habit in that respect?

Mrs. PAINE. It's my habit to turn the light off.

Mr. JENNER. And frugality, if not appearance, had dictated you in that direction, had it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, more appearance than frugality.

Mr. JENNER. And had Marina come to be aware of your habit? In that direction, that is, of seeing that the light was off when you weren't using the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I would suppose so.

Mr. JENNER. Is that your best present impression, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I believe you testified that it was your opinion that at that time that it had not been Marina who had left the light on?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right--it was definitely not Marina at that time.

Mr. JENNER. But it was who--had left the light on?

Mrs. PAINE. That Lee had left the light on.

Mr. JENNER. From that, you concluded that he had what?

Mrs. PAINE. Been in the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time you entered the garage around 9 o'clock that evening. Had it come to your attention in any manner or fashion that he had been in the garage earlier in the evening, I mean, apart from this particular circumstance you have now related?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know how long he had been out of it when I went in and found the light on. It is my impression he had been in it some time between the dinner hour and the time I entered.

Mr. JENNER. Now, sitting as I am, in the dining room area of your kitchen--dining room space--even if, as you have testified was the fact, that either you alone or you and Marina were washing the dishes and cleaning up at least after dinner, it would have been virtually impossible, wouldn't it, for anybody to have entered the garage without your noticing it, that is, entering from the kitchen-dining room area?

Mrs. PAINE. I would think so.

Mr. JENNER. And, would that not be especially true if you were in the dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area?

Mrs. PAINE. That would be unquestionably true--if you were in the kitchen-dining area at all.

Mr. JENNER. But you were not, I gather, at all times that evening up to 9 o'clock, in the kitchen-dining room area; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. I was in the kitchen-dining area part of the time, occasionally, I would say.

Mr. JENNER. Were your children retired when you went into the garage, at the time you went into the garage to lacquer your boxes?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, they were.

Mr. JENNER. Had you put them to bed that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I had spent probably close to an hour in bed preparations.

Mr. JENNER. Now, during that period of time, Lee Oswald could have been in your garage without your knowing it?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it's likely--it would have been likely that I would know it then too.

Mr. JENNER. Well, how would you have known it if you were in that bedroom which is in the northeast corner, which is as we have measured quite a good distance from the entrance to the garage? How could you necessarily have known it--that's the point I am making.

Mrs. PAINE. I could not necessarily have seen him enter. If I was fully in the room, my going to bed activities include being in the bathroom, coming into the kitchen, and going into the living room.

Mr. JENNER. Moving in and out?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And I think I asked you during your testimony before the Commission--were you conscious during the period up to 9 o'clock that evening that Lee Oswald had been in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. It is my--I recall the definite feeling that he had been in the garage. I can't recall seeing him go in.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the police picked up some books, did they not, and other papers and things of which you were not aware at the time, you weren't present when they did that, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Most of what they took I did not see.

Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to pages 144 to 147, inclusive, of a volume which has a paster on its front cover reading, "Affidavits and statements taken in connection with the assassination of the President," which I will state for the record was furnished me by the Dallas police this afternoon. Pages 144 through 147 are headed, "Literature" as having been found by the Dallas police either in the home of Mrs. Paine here in Irving, or in Lee Oswald's quarters on Beckley Street in Dallas.

Would you please examine that list, Mrs. Paine, and you will notice each page is headed "Name" and then the item is sought to be described, whether a letter, a book, an application, a pamphlet or a booklet, as the case might be.

The second column is headed "place found" and underneath that appears either the word "Irving" or the word "Beckley"?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And there is a third column, headed "Microfilm," which indicates that the police has microfilmed each item and they give the microfilm number?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you go through that list and arrest our attention to any item which had come to your attention prior to November 22, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. [Examining instruments referred to.] I do not think I see anything that I had seen or have since seen.

Mr. JENNER. You have looked only on page 144.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am sorry.

Mr. JENNER. Take that card there and go down that way with it so you don't miss anything.

Mrs. PAINE. This is mine.

Mr. JENNER. All right. The witness has now pointed at page 146 to what is described as a magazine "Free World News." That's your own?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It is a publication to which you subscribe?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; anyway, I receive it.

Mr. JENNER. And "Friends" mentioned there is what?

Mrs. PAINE. There it refers to Quakers.

Mr. JENNER. The Quakers of your faith?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether that item is one I have seen or not, from the description--it is microfilm 198.

Mr. JENNER. You can't tell from the description whether that magazine, the cover of which is described, is one you have seen around?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't tell whether I've seen it or not.

Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether it's yours or was not yours?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right--I can't tell.

Mr. JENNER. Have you examined those pages 144 through 147, inclusive?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the only item you found which is your property is the one we have picked out--you have picked out?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And is it also your testimony that having examined all those items which are listed as having been found by the police in your home in Irving, that you don't recall having seen any of those in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. I'm quite certain I did not see--well, let's see, any of those with the possible exception of a newspaper from Minsk.

"Magazine wrapper," I don't know whether that's it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you can't tell from that description?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't tell from that--perhaps there was no such listing, but that's what I recall having seen.

Mr. JENNER. What do you recall having seen?

Mrs. PAINE. A newspaper from Minsk, but it doesn't appear to be listed.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, it is--just a moment.

Let's go off the record here for a moment.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. I guess you are right--that was just a wrapper.

Now, I will ask that at this place in the deposition the reporter copy pages 144, 145, 146, and 147, to which we have been referring.

LITERATURE

_Name_ _Place _Microfilm
found_ No._

Application, the Militant Irving 380
Application slip for FPCC Beckley 416
Application slips for FPCC (187) Irving 96
Booklet, "The Coming American Revolution," Irving 330
by James Cannon.
Booklet, "Continental Congress of Solidarity Irving 319
with Cuba, Brazil," by FPCC.
Booklet, "Cuban Counter Revolutionaries to Irving 307
the U.S.," published by FPCC.
Booklet, Dobbs Weiss Campaign Committee, 116 Irving 308
University Pl., N.Y.C., entitled "Apamphlar."
Booklet, "Fidel Castro Denounces Bureaucracy Irving 304
and Sectarianism."
Book, list of FPCC, N.Y.C. Irving 329
Book, foreign language, 2 pages Irving 201
Book, foreign language, 2 pages Irving 202
Booklet, "Ideology and Revolution," by Jean Irving 313
Paul Sarte
Booklet, list of Russian and Communist Irving 309
literatures publications.
Booklet, "The McCarran Act and the Right Irving 311
to Travel"
Booklet, "The Nation," dated Jan. 23, 1960 Irving 320
Booklet, "The Pact of Madrid," by the Irving 310
committed of Democratic Spain.
Book, Russian Irving 84
Books, Russian (18) Irving 78-83
Book, Russian Language No. 732648 Irving 112
Booklet, "Socialist Workers Party," by Irving 305
Josepth Hanson

144

Book, "Sofia," dated 1962 Irving 324
Booklet, "Speech at the UN by Fidel Castro" Irving 318
Book, "The Spy Who Loved Me," by Ian Fleming Beckley 410
Book, "Live and Let Die," by Ian Fleming Beckley 410
Book, "A Study of U.S.S.R. and Communism Beckley 409
Historical," by Keiber and Nelson.
Book, "A study of U.S.S.R. and Communism Beckley 409
Historical"
Circulars, FPCC, Bill Jones Printing Co., Beckley 415
New Orleans.
Handbill, FPCC, Lee H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine Irving 335
St., New Orleans.
Handbill, FPCC, L. H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine Beckley 414
St., New Orleans, La.
Handbills, "Hands Off Cuba" (178), Irving 97
Join the FPCC
Handbills, "Hands Off Cuba" (180), Irving 300
Join the FPCC, New Orleans Branch.
Letter, from James J. Forney on letterhead of Beckley 405
Gus Hall, Benjamin J. Davis, defense
comittee, N.Y.C., Dec 13, 1962.
Letter, from Farrell Dobbs, National Beckley 401
Secretary of Socialist Workers Party to
Lee Oswald, Nov. 5, 1962.
Letter, signed "Gene," to "Dear Lee," from Beckley 412
Jesuit House of Studies, Mobile, Ala.,
letterhead, Aug. 22, 1963.
Letter, from Jesuit House of Studies, Mobile, Beckley 430
Ala., to Lee and Marie.
Letter, from Peter P. Gregory to Oswald, Beckley 413
re: Ability to translate.
Letter, from Arnold Johnson, P.O. Box 30061, Beckley 400
New Orleans, to Oswald.
Letter, from Arnold Johnson, director, Beckley 406
Information and Lecture Bureau CP, July 31,
1963, P.O. Box 30061, New Orleans, to Oswald.
Letter, from V. T. Lee, national director of Beckley 403
FPCC, N.Y., to Oswald, May 22, 1963.
Letter, from V. T. Lee, national director, Beckley 407
FPCC, N.Y.C., to Oswald, 4907 Magazine,
New Orleans.

145

Letter, from Paul Piazza to Oswald, on Jesuit Beckley 429
House of Studies, Mobile, Ala., letterhead.
Letter, from Pioneer Publishers, April 26, Irving 363
1963
Letter, from Joseph Tack, Socialist Worker Beckley 445
Party, to Oswald.
Letter, from Johnny Tackett, on Fort Worth Beckley 438
Press letterhead, to Oswald.
Letter, from Louis Weinstock, general manager Beckley 404
of the Worker, Dec. 19, 1962, to Oswald.
Magazine, "Friends Word News" Irving 87
Magazine, "The Militant" Irving 85
Magazine, "The New Republic," reprint from Irving 322
Sept. 12, 1963.
Magazine, cover, group of men dressed in Irving 198
black standing behind what appears to be
a master of ceremonies dressed in white.
Magazine, wrapper, addressed to Lee Oswald, Irving 191
Minsk, Russia.
Newspaper, "The Worker" Irving 86
Newspaper, clipping, re: the President Irving 120
Newspaper, clipping, New Orleans paper. Irving 98
Newspaper, clipping, Fort Worth Press, Irving 270
showing photo of Iranian native, Mrs.
John R. Hall.
Newspaper, clipping (Oswald defection and Beckley 417
cartoon regarding defectors).
Newspaper, clipping (Times Picayune, New Beckley 413
Orleans, re: Oswald's fine for disturbing
peace. Sent from room 329, 799 Broadway,
N.Y.C.
Newspapers (7), Russian language Irving 381
Newspaper, subscription forms (3), The Irving 380
Worker, with return envelopes to publishers
News Press.

146

Pamphlet, "The End of the Comintern," by Irving 317
James P. Cannon.
Pamphlets, "The Crime Against Cuba," Curliss Irving 303
Lamont
Pamphlets, "The Crime Against Cuba," by Irving 99
Curliss Lamont
Pamphlet, "The Revolution Must Be a School Irving 312
of Unfettered Thought," by Fidel Castro.
Pamphlet, "The Road to Socialism," by Blas Irving 315
Rocan
Pamphlet, Russian, bearing No. 500 on cover Irving 325
Pamphlets, Russian Irving 89-94
Pamphlets, No. 13, Russian document Irving 192
Pamphlet, New York School for Marxist study, Beckley 411
fall term, 1963.
Pamphlet, the weekly people entitled Irving 321
"Automation, a Job Killer."
Photos, "Visit to U.S.S.R."(4) Irving 366
Photos, Fidel Castro (6) Irving 366
Photo, Fidel Castro Irving 368
Photo, female Russian workers in radio Irving 332
factory
Photo, Russian workers Irving 331

147

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, one of the things we said we might see is a package that was in your garage containing curtain rods.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes--as you recall.

Mr. JENNER. You said you would leave that package in precisely the place--wherever it was last week when you were in Washington, D.C., and have you touched it since you came home?

Mrs. PAINE. I have not touched it.

Mr. JENNER. And is it now in the place it was to the best of your recollection on November 21, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you rise and enter the garage and point out in my presence and in the presence of Mr. Howlett where that package is?

(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned entered the garage as stated by Counsel Jenner.)

Mrs. PAINE. It is on a shelf above the workbench. It extends north of the north edge of the workbench.

Mr. JENNER. Is it the thicker of the two packages wrapped in brown wrapping paper, shorter and thicker?

Mrs. PAINE. You would do well to look at them both.

Mr. JENNER. Well, what I am going to do first--I'm going to hand you a pointer, and would you point to the package that you have in mind?

Mrs. PAINE. This, to the best of my recollection, contains venetian blinds.

Mr. JENNER. The witness is now referring to a package which Mr. Howlett, and I will ask you to measure it in a moment, but which appears to me to be at most about 28 inches long, maybe 30, and about 6-1/2 inches high and about 6-1/2 inches through.

While it is still wrapped in place, Mr. Howlett, would you measure the package and it is a little bit irregular.

Agent HOWLETT. That is 2 feet 11 inches.

Mr. JENNER. The package is 2 feet 11 inches long and it is resting on a shelf which is apparently a foot down from the ceiling, and the north edge of the package is 5 inches from the outer wall of the storeroom I have described, and Mr. Howlett has now measured the distance from the shelf on which the package is resting, to the floor, and that is what distance?

Agent HOWLETT. Seven feet and three inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, measure the height of the package.

Mrs. PAINE. While you are up there, measure the one behind you.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; we will.

Agent HOWLETT. The height of the package is about seven inches.

Mr. JENNER. And it is how thick through from east to west?

Agent HOWLETT. Seven inches.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I'll ask Mr. Howlett to take the package down, since he is already up there on top of the bench, and we will open it in the presence of Mrs. Paine and see what it contains.

The package has now been taken down from the shelf in our presence and Mrs. Paine is opening it. Mrs. Paine, and in your presence, Mr. Howlett, what does the package contain?

Mrs. PAINE. It contains two venetian blinds, both of them are 2 feet 6 inches.

Mr. JENNER. And they are of the metal variety, are they not?

Mrs. PAINE. They are.

Mr. JENNER. And those blinds are 2 feet 6 inches wide?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, they are wrapped in brown or light-tan wrapping paper?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a supply of this particular wrapping paper around your home at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. From where did you obtain this wrapping paper?

Mrs. PAINE. This must have come around a package or something I had bought. I have never had a supply of this variety.

Mr. JENNER. Now, John Joe, will you favor Mrs. Paine by putting her package back the way it was?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes--for the record.

Mr. JENNER. For the record, when we sought to rewrap the package, it has a paster on the outside of Sears, Roebuck & Co., Dallas, No. 4017, and "Will call--M. R. Paine."

Mrs. Paine has torn from the package some sticky tape.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It is wider than the variety we have heretofore identified--is it your recollection that this sticky tape came on this particular package when it was delivered to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And is this paper the paper in which the blinds came in the first instance?

Mrs. PAINE. These blinds did not come to me from Sears, Roebuck, but that--I used to replace them did. Now, whether the shades I bought came in this package, I have no idea whatever.

Mr. JENNER. Well, is it your recollection that this paper in which the blinds are now wrapped came from another package that was delivered to you and not a part of a general supply of paper which you had in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly not part of a general supply of paper.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that the sticky tape that appears on this wrapping was affixed to the package which this is?

Mrs. PAINE. As you said, yes.

Mr. JENNER. This paper--when delivered to your home, having nothing to do with the curtain rods or the rifle or anything else hereon, is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we see in back of this package that we have just described a much longer package also wrapped on--in light-tan wrapping paper--at this time a little bit darker, I think, than the package we have just been describing, and Mr. Howlett has now mounted again the work bench and is measuring that package. That package, Mr. Howlett, is also on the shelf.

Agent HOWLETT. The same shelf in behind where the other package was.

Mr. JENNER. And it is how long?

Agent HOWLETT. Three feet nine inches long, as it is folded now.

Mr. JENNER. And in general is it a rectangular package?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But its shape is not as well defined as the shorter package we have already described?

Agent HOWLETT. No, sir; it seems to be a little bit bigger at the north end.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, before we open it, what is in that package?

Mrs. PAINE. My best guess would be that it contains two pull blinds which I did have in the southeast bedroom.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "pull blinds" you mean venetian blinds?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not. I mean roll-type.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, would you be good enough to take that package down and we will open it in Mrs Paine's presence here.

(At this point Agent Howlett complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER. It contains, does it not, what you call the pull blinds, and which I, in my vernacular call spring window shades.

Mrs. PAINE. All, right, that's correct, and these are cut to fit the windows in the southeast bedroom.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, there are two of them, one of which is how wide?

Agent HOWLETT. Two feet six inches.

Mr. JENNER. And the other one is?

Agent HOWLETT. Three feet six inches.

Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Howlett and Mrs. Paine, these two spring window-shades are the customary type we see on windows, these, however, are white or cream colored, and are plastic?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And they are opaque?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Neither is metal?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The spring to which the shade itself--the plastic shade is attached, is wood, inside of which there is the usual window shade spring.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The paper in which these are wrapped likewise contains as did the other one an address sticker of Sears, Roebuck & Co., No. 4017, addressed to Michael R. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And so, the wrapping paper in which those two shades are wrapped came from Sears, Roebuck & Co. and not from any roll of paper that you keep in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, are there any other paper-wrapped packages on that shelf?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I testified that.

Mr. JENNER. That was your impression, was it not?

Mrs. PAINE. And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.

Mr. JENNER. You, of course--you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.

Mr. JENNER. And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?

Agent HOWLETT. About 10-1/2 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Painted or enameled white?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett--how many do you have there?

Agent HOWLETT. There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?

While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.

Mrs. PAINE. This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.

Agent HOWLETT. I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.

Mr. JENNER. And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. None whatsoever.

Mr. JENNER. May we take these curtain rods and mark them as exhibits and we will return them after they have been placed of record?

Mrs. PAINE. All right.

Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, the cream colored curtain rod, we will mark Ruth Paine Exhibit 275 and the white one as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 276.

(The curtain rods referred to were at this time marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 275 and 276, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Since we will have the exact physical exhibits we don't have to measure them, but perhaps for somebody who is reading the record, Mr. Howlett, your suggestion that we measure them is not a bad one. Let me describe the configuration of these rods. They are very light weight--what would you say that metal is, Mr. Howlett, tin--heavy tin?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. They are the sliding or extension type, one fitting into the other when closed entirely, measuring from upended tip to upended tip they are----

Agent HOWLETT. The white one is 2 feet 3-1/2 inches.

Mr. JENNER. And the cream colored one measured in the like fashion?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 3-1/2 inches.

Mr. JENNER. These curtain rods--the ends of each of them are turned. Those ends extending are turned up how many inches?

Agent HOWLETT. About 2 inches measuring from the inside of the curtain rod.

Mr. JENNER. On the cream colored one, and what about the white one?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes; on the cream colored one and the white one measures about 2-3/8 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, these curtain rods with the ends turned up form a "U," do they not, a long "U"?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, we have only remaining the one other item to which you have called our attention and that is the correspondence between you and Marina Oswald subsequent to November 22, 1963.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you been able to assemble that correspondence for me?

Mrs. PAINE. I appear only to have the translation.

Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?

Mrs. PAINE. I appear only to have the translation.

Mr. JENNER. You appear only to have the translation--will you explain that remark?

Mrs. PAINE. The correspondence you refer to is all by me, with the exception of one Christmas card from Marina.

Mr. JENNER. When it is by you, you mean it is correspondence you transmitted to her and therefore you do not have the originals?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought I had the rough draft of what I wrote--I appear only to have a translation of that rough draft. I made a translation for several of these--I made a translation at the time and sent them off.

Mr. JENNER. At the time you prepared the originals?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. May I have the translations?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; you may.

TESTIMONY OF AGENT JOHN JOE HOWLETT

Mr. JENNER. While we are doing that, Miss Oliver, since I have involved Agent Howlett in this deposition--Mr. Howlett, would you rise and be sworn and I will ask you some questions in connection with this deposition, and in that regard do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Agent HOWLETT. I do.