Chapter XXXIII: Part 33

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth ever tell you that Colonel Wilmeth had come to call on her and Marina?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; that call or one or two calls he made to the lab to me was asking me if I would make it possible for him to meet them and so I told Ruth, and either Ruth called or I told her that he was, he would like to come on the weekend or something or he would call, I forget, but anyway I was a go-between to help in a polite way to meet Ruth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth tell you about the meeting when he came?

Mr. PAINE. She did; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about it.

Mr. PAINE. I think she said she had a good time, I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any of the details of what she said?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the details; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Clifton M. Shasteen?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. He is a barber in Irving, Tex.

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you ordinarily get your hair cut in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. I used to get my hair cut, and I don't think that is the name of the person or where it used to be done but for the year that I was living in Grand Prairie, I found a barber I liked better over there and I had it done over there all the time, almost all the time. I guess I haven't in months. I had another barber down in Irving and got a bad haircut.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much does a haircut cost in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. I think more frequently it is a dollar fifty; when I get it over in Grand Prairie it is a dollar and a quarter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there a standard price so far as you know for barber shops in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. I would suppose a dollar and fifty was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Oswald to associate with any young boys? There has been a report that he was seen in the presence of, in the company of a 14-year-old boy. Do you know of anyone fitting that description?

Mr. PAINE. I don't know of anyone with whom he associated. I didn't--I was aware of not asking him how he spent his free time.

Mr. LIEBELER. There has also been a report from Mr. Leonard Edwin Hutchinson who apparently runs Hutch's Supermarket in Irving that Oswald came in there on a certain day and asked to cash a two-party check for $189. Have you ever heard anything about that?

Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Hutchison?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know, are you familiar with Hutch's Market, Supermarket?

Mr. PAINE. I am trying to think of the name of the market that is on Storey Road, not Storey, Shady Lane--Shady Grove Road or Lane, that is, if he isn't on that address then I don't know where it is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever take Oswald to any supermarket?

Mr. PAINE. I didn't; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever use your automobile?

Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. Presumably he couldn't drive. He couldn't have used my automobile very well because I don't believe he knew where my second key was, and I would always have the key.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of an automobile do you own?

Mr. PAINE. It is a French Citroen.

Mr. LIEBELER. What model?

Mr. PAINE. 1959; year 1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. Not a 2CV?

Mr. PAINE. No; it is an ID-19, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only automobile that you own?

Mr. PAINE. While they were here I bought a second automobile; an Olds, '55 or '56 Oldsmobile, '56, I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was this?

Mr. PAINE. During the time, sometime between September and November, I bought a secondhand '56 Oldsmobile.

Mr. LIEBELER. For your own personal use?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you then had two cars?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Ruth has a station wagon, doesn't she?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that is her own car?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only automobile that she owns?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What model is that?

Mr. PAINE. '55.

Mr. LIEBELER. Chevrolet station wagon?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald used that?

Mr. PAINE. Ruth took Oswald to practice driving in a parking lot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about that?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you?

Mr. PAINE. I can't remember whether she has told me so much more since November 22 and I can't remember whether she may have said before that. She was telling me how he was persistent, diligent in trying to learn, not very particularly skilled, and apparently quite pleased at the whole process. He was grateful to her and one of the nicest kinds of communication she had with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about his ability to drive a car?

Mr. PAINE. She thought it was pretty crude. He was having trouble operating the clutch, and over-controlling the stick, or the steering wheel. Those are my words. She didn't use "over-controlling" but put it in some other way.

Mr. LIEBELER. The station wagon has a straight transmission.

Mr. PAINE. No; it is an automatic transmission, power brakes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he practicing on the station wagon or----

Mr. PAINE. Yes; over-controlling the stick, I was thinking of an airplane.

Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned the clutch.

Mr. PAINE. Maybe it was the brake; did I mention the clutch?

Mr. LIEBELER. At any event she wasn't overly impressed with his ability to manipulate the controls?

Mr. PAINE. She was impressed with how much a person has to learn when they learn to drive a car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend Oswald any money?

Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever give him any?

Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your wife did?

Mr. PAINE. I don't believe she gave Lee any money. She gave Marina pocket money.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea of how much she gave Marina?

Mr. PAINE. Generally she would pay for things that Marina needed, medicines and things like that. I think she also gave her pocket money. It may have been five dollars a week or something like that. It could have been ten dollars a week. I doubt if it would be that much.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any knowledge of Oswald spending any money for bus fare from Dallas, between Dallas and Irving or anywhere else?

Mr. PAINE. He would come out and I suppose by bus to Irving. I do remember that he came out a couple of times, and then wanted somebody to pick him up there.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the bus station in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. At the bus station in Irving.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say it was just twice that he did that?

Mr. PAINE. I think that is about all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what the bus fare from Dallas to Irving is?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't have any idea.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald spent any money for telephone calls?

Mr. PAINE. I never saw Oswald spend any money.

Mr. LIEBELER. For anything, under any circumstances at any time?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. Of course, that shouldn't be--you construe that as you please, but if you think it is penny-pinching it may be. But I saw him at home and not in any position to spend money. He didn't have any money jingling in his pockets that I recalled.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald owned any cameras?

Mr. PAINE. I wasn't aware of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever bought any records, musical records?

Mr. PAINE. Well, they made some records for us, I thought they were Marina's records. We played some records for them and they wanted to play some for us or something, so they were records that were Russian singing or something, I can't remember what it was. It was rather poor fidelity so I didn't enjoy listening to them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Oswald received any periodicals or mail at your address in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. The Daily Worker, or it is not the Daily Worker now but the Worker, what is it called now?

Mr. LIEBELER. The Worker.

Mr. PAINE. Would come. Ruth said he received all his, The Militant also there. I don't remember, recall, seeing The Militant there but generally, I didn't see the mail very much. She would put my mail apart, I had half my mail or more than half my mail would come to that address, since I didn't feel the one at Grand Prairie was a permanent address, so I didn't see most of the mail. She would separate my mail into a separate pile and I would pick it up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about these periodicals?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. He said in regard to, I think, the Worker or at least it was the Worker he gave me to look at as the result of his conversation, he told me if you knew how to read the thing and read between the lines a little bit you could see what they wanted you to do.

Mr. LIEBELER. He said that?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did he say that?

Mr. PAINE. I think that was a week or two after he came, pretty soon after coming back. I talked to him rather less and less as the weeks rolled by.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what he meant by that remark?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I certainly wish I had, no; I didn't. I took the issue he gave me just to make my eye go over it. I thought to myself instead here is a person who is pretty, well, out of it again if this is the way he gets his communications from headquarters.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us everything that you can remember about that conversation.

Mr. PAINE. That wasn't much of a conversation. It happened in an afternoon. I am afraid I can't remember anything more about it. I remember only the thoughts, I sort of smiled to myself when he said this.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why?

Mr. PAINE. Thinking of the kind of person--what it said about him so it suggested to me he wanted to be a party to something or a part of a group that had objectives. In other words, he wanted to be an activist of some sort. And he wasn't aware of--it seemed somewhat childish to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that?

Mr. PAINE. Well, it would have seemed more competent to have more explicit communication clandestine, if it would have to be clandestine. And if you had more explicit communication of some sort you wouldn't mention receiving your directions from the newspaper, reading between the lines of a newspaper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever say anything to you that would indicate that he had ever received more explicit instructions from anybody regarding any subject in the political field?

Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't, and it was these various--there weren't many occasions. Another time at the ACLU, in this talk that he had with Frank or this argument that he had with Frank and a third person on the way home he asked me if I knew that third person and whether I thought he was a Communist, and he said he thought he was a Communist, Lee thought the third person was a Communist, and he gave me some reason and I think it had to do with a receptivity to some words spoken about Castro. And I thought that was such a feeble reason or explanation of a Communist that again I thought to myself he must be out of it if that is the way he has to find his fellow travelers.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you use the expression "out of it" do you mean to convey the idea that he was not closely associated with any Communist group or he just had a very tenuous grip on reality?

Mr. PAINE. No; I mean in this case he was not associated with a cell or a Communist group. This I didn't know. That was the impression and thought in the back of my mind from the things he had said.

Mr. LIEBELER. When he made this remark about the person at the ACLU meeting being a Communist how was the remark made, did he seem to indicate to you some desire to reach out and to know this person, to meet this person, to associate with him or was he just making a general remark or were you thinking in the perjurative sense, how did he speak, what impression did he give you?

Mr. PAINE. I had the impression that he hoped he would be a Communist and he would like to meet him again, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice the person, this third person?

Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he an elderly person?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Reverend Helligas?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was not him?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe Oswald speak with Reverend Helligas that evening at the meeting?

Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever learned the identity of this third person?

Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him again?

Mr. PAINE. I think that is the last ACLU meeting I have been to. They convene very infrequently.

Mr. LIEBELER. By that do you mean you have not seen this person again?

Mr. PAINE. Therefore, I have not seen him again. I expect he is a registered member of the ACLU. I had the impression he was an ACLU member. He is rather softspoken, a quiet man.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize him again if you saw him?

Mr. PAINE. I probably would.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed him with anybody else in the ACLU?

Mr. PAINE. I joined Frank to the ACLU now.

Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed him with Frank?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is Frank Krystinik.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you attempted to identify this third person?

Mr. PAINE. No; I never, I have not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Oswald to give Marina any money during the time that Marina lived at your house?

Mr. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. When Oswald stayed at your home in Irving on the weekends, did he eat all of his meals there?

Mr. PAINE. I came only for Friday's supper and would leave and would sometimes be there on Sunday. Therefore, I couldn't be--I was not in a position to say. I think he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever made any contribution in respect to those meals?

Mr. PAINE. Oh, no, he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he make any contribution to any of the other expenses of the household?

Mr. PAINE. No, he didn't. I for one didn't expect him to. I didn't--I would have been surprised had he done so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he packed lunch in the morning when he left for work and took it with him or ate breakfast there before he left?

Mr. PAINE. He would eat breakfast there. This again was just what Ruth has told me, he would eat a breakfast consisting of coffee and maybe a piece of toast. I forget what it is. I don't believe he packed a lunch.

Mr. LIEBELER. You do believe?

Mr. PAINE. I don't believe he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't believe.

Mr. PAINE. I don't know of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss finances with you or in your presence?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I raised the problem when he obtained the job at the Book Depository Building, I mentioned that one and a quarter, I wanted to confirm at one and a quarter, and I did somehow.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you want to confirm that?

Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me that is still a pretty slim pickings to live on, also I was concerned about how long the job might last, and I inquired, therefore, about the number of people working there and how come he was employed after all after the school year began so if he was employed then it was possible that it was a full year occupation. I would have normally expected the rush of employment to be prior to the school year. And then to lay off after the books had been sent. I was concerned in other words that he should be able to keep his job, but also I would have preferred had it been a little bit more money he would be a happier person.

Mr. LIEBELER. That later part is your own surmise?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; but it is my own experience.

Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. He was pleased to get the job, and I avoided talking too directly about the possibility of his losing that job because I felt it was, he would be concerned about the same matter, and now perhaps I was projecting but I do remember not asking as many questions about that as were in my mind just because I didn't want to arouse the anxiety that he must feel in regard to the job.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you that he felt that the FBI was responsible for his not being able to obtain a job?

Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate that he thought the FBI was responsible for his losing a job?

Mr. PAINE. No; he never mentioned losing a job with me. I surmised from the first time I met him, he was at the Neely Street address, and Marina was packing, took about half an hour to leave and Marina was packing things for Junie. And so he and I sat on the sofa and talked.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is before he went to New Orleans?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And they were packing to go to New Orleans?

Mr. PAINE. No, no; packing to come over to our house for dinner.

Mr. LIEBELER. I see.

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you met him?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?

Mr. PAINE. And there he mentioned how he didn't have people at work, people who talked about this subject of politics and economics and he also mentioned with some bitterness how his employer made more money than he did and the things that his employer had that he did not have. It was the only time I observed personal animosity, and I thought to myself, he must be rather difficult, that animosity or resentment must show through to his employer.

This was just in what he said. It struck me that these things must happen. When he later lost his job, I don't know whether it was later or not but he may have lost the job already, I didn't realize it, I thought he was still employed there. These seemed to me adequate reasons, sub rosa reasons for his dismissal.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any indication from anyone that he felt the FBI was in any way responsible for his losing his job?

Mr. PAINE. He never mentioned the FBI to me. And I never talked with anyone else who knew him except Ruth. Ruth did, of course indicate, told me of his extreme allergy to the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't indicate that he felt that they had caused him to lose jobs?

Mr. PAINE. I think she mentioned this, she asked me not to mention this to other people but I guess you are not just other people. She read this note which he had left on her desk, I had the impression it was a couple of days; actually it was only a day or so. He had written, typed it but had written a rough draft which he left on her desk; she gave the note, her copy of it, perhaps, she copied it for me to read. I didn't really absorb it, I did read it, and I did read he spoke of the notorious FBI.

Ruth cited the letter to me as an example of how he could lie. She hadn't been aware of his lying before. She thought his trip to Mexico, which he mentioned his trip to Mexico in his letter hadn't been true and it was a fabrication, but it was, we talked, therefore, a little bit about his--also, I think----

Mr. LIEBELER. His feeling about the FBI?

Mr. PAINE. We talked a little bit about his abuse of the FBI there. And also I think it was mentioned that, Ruth mentioned to me that, the FBI had been out once or twice or had reported this to me, and that Lee seemed to resent that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to this letter, when did Ruth first show you this letter, and I take it you are referring to a draft of a letter from Oswald to the Russian Embassy?

Mr. PAINE. I didn't know who it was written to.

Mr. LIEBELER. But the letter referred to the notorious FBI?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't think it was the Russian Embassy. I thought it was a friend to whom he was speaking in a rather braggart way of what he had done. He had gone down to the Cuban Consulate in Mexico, and they had, I think this is the letter, I could be mixed up, and that they had not given him a visa--actually, I had made a mistake in the heading because I thought--it said, "Dear Sirs," but I though it said, "Dear Lisa." Ruth told me it had said, "Dear Sirs."

Mr. LIEBELER. This was in Russian or in English?

Mr. PAINE. She must have shown me the letter in his hand, therefore, yes. I thought it was "Dear Lisa," English.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did she show you this letter?

Mr. PAINE. This is a confusing matter, because I was reading some other magazine at the time, and she intruded this thing on my attention, and I didn't really shift attention too well.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it before the assassination or afterwards?

Mr. PAINE. It was before, yes. No; afterwards, I would have paid close attention to it. Since recently, I have, Ruth has, figured out that it must have been, he must have started writing on Friday or something and she cleaned up or removed the desk, it was that time when we moved the furniture. It had been written just prior to that, and we did that on a Sunday night. Maybe she preserved his original draft, I don't remember what happened, because I would have guessed that in order to misread the "Dear Sirs" for "Dear Lisa," I would have seen it, I would have read it correctly in her hand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Recapitulate for me, if you can, the number of times and the dates on which you saw Oswald after he returned from New Orleans up until the time of the assassination. You said you saw him, I believe shortly after he returned from wherever he had been.

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that was around October 4, was it not?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first part of October. When was the next time you saw him?

Mr. PAINE. I think I probably saw him on each weekend except the one preceding the assassination. There were at least one or two, I think there were two before he had a job and then he had a job and a birthday party.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been October 18, would it not, approximately, when he had a birthday party or represented to you that his birthday was October 18?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; he may have celebrated the next day but----

Mr. LIEBELER. And your recollection is that you saw him each weekend after that except for the weekend immediately prior to the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The weekend of November 8, 9, and 10 was a long weekend, was it not?

Mr. PAINE. He was there then. I remember we didn't have a long weekend, Bell didn't. He had another day to sit in front of the TV.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the last weekend that you saw him then?

Mr. PAINE. If that is the one prior, two weekends, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, starting at November 8, 9, and 10, which was the last time you saw him, consider when your wife showed you the draft of the letter that we spoke of just before. Would it have been that weekend or after that?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I suppose it would be after that. They weren't in the house when she showed it to me or at least he wasn't. I don't remember when he wrote that letter or when we moved the furniture.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember whether you saw Oswald after you read the letter or not?

Mr. PAINE. That is a good question, I can see some point to it now. One would surmise that, and I would think it reasonable that I would have looked at him with somewhat different point of view after having read the letter, and I don't remember looking at him with that different point of view, so quite possibly I didn't see him again.

Mr. LIEBELER. So we would--the conclusion would be suggested that she showed you the letter sometime after November 8 or 9, 1963?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; yes, I would guess that she, as I say, I would come to a dinner when he was not there on either of the Tuesday or the Wednesday and that would have been a reasonable time that she would have shown me the letter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a discussion with her about this subject of his having gone to Mexico which was discussed in the letter, was it not?

Mr. PAINE. She thought it was a fabrication, a complete fabrication. And she did not discuss, she gave me the letter, and as I say I was reading some other magazine and I read the letter and went back to my magazine. How dense people can be. But anyway----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she----

Mr. PAINE. So we did not talk about it until later, then she took the letter back and put it in an envelope or something, she didn't want me to see it. She was sort of irked that I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Look at it when she wanted you to look at it?

Mr. PAINE. Pay more attention to this thing, yes. But she didn't want me to see it again. "If you didn't see anything in it never mind looking at it."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about any discussions she had with Marina Oswald about Oswald's having been in Mexico?

Mr. PAINE. I was under the impression that Ruth didn't know he had been in Mexico until after the assassination and, therefore, and I think Ruth later said, was dismayed also that Marina had been apparently, had apparently known and deceived her in this matter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did Ruth mention the fact that Marina had a little charm made out of Mexican peso.

Mr. PAINE. Yes; but we didn't put that two and two together there until the FBI came and we looked on our drill press to see if they had used the tools in the shop to mount the sights on the gun and we found these little metal filings and then Ruth remembered that he had drilled out a coin to give to Marina and she never--I can't remember whether she realized then that it was a peso or Ruth hadn't thought that much about it until afterward.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't discuss that subject prior to the assassination, with your wife?

Mr. PAINE. I didn't know about this whole thing, this medallion.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife mention the fact that Marina Oswald had a record of Mexican music?

Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't know that until now. I don't recall it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife tell you anything about the nature of her relationship with Marina Oswald during this period from the first of October up to the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. It all seemed perfectly reasonable to me. When Ruth had met Marina back in the spring, I had seen that Marina Oswald--when I met them in their apartment, Oswald had spoken very loudly and harshly to Marina, and I thought to myself, isn't it amazing to see a little fellow who insists on wearing the pants, strongly. And then later on in discussions which followed the discussion which followed, that evening at the house, our house, he would not let her have a contrary opinion, and I also saw she was allergic to gibes, and he would gibe frequently.

Mr. LIEBELER. She was allergic to them?

Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me so.

Mr. LIEBELER. They affected her greatly?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. This all went on in Russian, and I don't know what he was saying. But I could see the object about which the statement was made, and later Ruth also told me some of the things that he had said.

But I felt that he was keeping her a vassal, and since I was more eager to hear her opinions of Russia than his opinions of Russia, I was eager that she should learn English, and when--Ruth told me that Marina thought she must have to go back to the Soviet Union, and I thought out of largesse of this country it should be possible for her to stay here if she wanted to stay here and she quite apparently did, she struck me as a somewhat apolitical person and yet true, just, and conscientious, so it was agreeable to me to look forward to financing her stay until she could make her own way here.

It added--Ruth also wanted to learn Russian, this was a cheap way for her to learn Russian, than to pay tutoring. And, as it happened, it was costing me less. She didn't go out shopping so much.

Mr. LIEBELER. When she was home learning Russian from Marina?

Mr. PAINE. When Marina was there to keep her company. She would go mad with boredom, I would think. So that it--we were somewhat saddened, or I think Ruth was, I think we shared--Ruth, of course, didn't want to stand in the way of Marina and Lee if they were happy together, but would have been glad to see Marina break away and make her own way. And she was a nice companion for Ruth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression of how Marina and Ruth got along together, what they did with their time during the day, that sort of thing?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, you mentioned before these curtain rods that were in your garage. Can you tell us approximately how many curtain rods there were in the garage when you last saw them and tell us when you last saw them?

Mr. PAINE. I saw them quite recently, 2 weeks ago.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many curtain rods were there then?

Mr. PAINE. There might be as many as four.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there ever any more than that?

Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. These were normally up on the shelf above the bench, and for some reason, they recently, I had to take them down, or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing them shortly before November 22 at any time?

Mr. PAINE. They never particularly impressed themselves on my recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Those are all the questions I have.

TESTIMONY OF RAYMOND FRANKLIN KRYSTINIK

The testimony of Raymond Franklin Krystinik was taken at 9 a.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner, Jr. and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Krystinik, I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission which has been established pursuant to Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963.

Last week Mr. Rankin sent you a letter and told you that I would be in touch with you, did he not?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Enclosed with that letter were copies of the Executive Order 11130, and a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of the Commission's procedure in taking the testimony.

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You received those documents?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The general nature of our inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We wish to inquire of you as to your knowledge of Oswald as a result of your having met him, as we understand it, through Michael Paine prior to the assassination. We also want to question you about some of the events that occurred shortly after the assassination, and some conversation you had with Mr. Paine at that time.

Would you state your name for the record?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Raymond Franklin Krystinik.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. 2121 Greenway Street, Arlington, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Bell Helicopter Research Laboratory, located at 33006 Avenue E, East, Arlington, Tex. It is a part of Bell Helicopter Co. Their address is Box 482, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for Bell?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Since June 6, 1960.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational background is, Mr. Krystinik?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I started grade school in Caldwell, Tex. I moved to Bryan and finished grade school in the Smetana School at Bryan, Tex. And from there to Fredericksburg. At Fredericksburg I went to St. Mary's Catholic School and grade school, and from Fredericksburg to Grand Prairie, Tex. I went to high school in Grand Prairie, Tex. Graduated in 1950.

I went to work for Chance Vought Aircraft Aviation from high school. Went into the Navy in 1952, I believe. I don't remember exactly. I have to look it up. I was married in 1954. Got out of the Navy in August of 1954. Started to school at Arlington State College in September of 1954, and I graduated from Arlington State in June of 1956.

Went to Texas A&M, I think starting in January of 1957. I graduated from Texas A&M in June of 1960. On June 6, I went to work for Bell Helicopter. These are just approximate dates. I think they are just about right, but I am not right sure. If you need it, I can give you the exact dates.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is all right. What kind of work do you do for Bell Helicopter?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I am a research engineer. I work in the research group.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your work relates to helicopters and their design?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Actually right now; no. Right now, I am working on what I think the company could classify as a flying machine. Is that adequate?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. When were you born?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. August 31, 1932.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently married?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any children?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I have three.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Michael Paine?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him, approximately? And under what circumstances?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Approximately in June of 1961, if I remember correctly. I was assigned to the research group on a temporary assignment, and at the research laboratory I met Michael and worked with him then off and on up through now.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are working with him now?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I went to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union on the campus of SMU. I don't remember the date, except I do remember it was the night after Mr. Stevenson's unhappy visit to Dallas when the lady, I believe, swatted him with a placard.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was sometime in October of 1963?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; it was October of 1963. Oswald was at the meeting, and Michael introduced me to him. He had told me about the man before.

Mr. LIEBELER. What had Michael Paine told you about Oswald?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I mean told me that at the time there was a Russian lady living with his wife Ruth and that just exactly, I can't remember his exact words, but there was this fellow who was an ex-Marine who had defected to Russia. I can remember that he told me that, that he defected to Russia, and the fellow decided it wasn't for him and he came back to the United States. And was, in general, a misfit and not capable of holding a good job; generally dissatisfied, and didn't accept the responsibilities for his family, and Michael's wife had taken Marina to help her for the time being.

That was the reference made to him prior to having met him.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, is that all Michael Paine told you about Oswald?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. At that particular time we discussed him--during that period of time Michael was eating supper with us on an average of once a week, and we discussed the man as being odd, or at least a little different. Michael said he couldn't understand the man exactly. He commented that he shirked or ran from responsibilities. As long as he had money and had a job, he was willing to stay around his family and support them, but when he lost a job and didn't have the money, he apparently took off. I can remember him telling me that about him, and when I met him at Selecman Hall, I didn't feel overly happy to meet the man, or that I had made an acquaintance of value.

They were there before my wife and I came. As we walked in and sat down, Oswald was there, and it didn't occur to me then that he might be the man. Prior to the meeting starting, he introduced me to him.

Michael, I am referring to--Michael introduced me. I need to keep my chain more correct, straight. Michael introduced me to Lee Oswald. As the meeting started, about that time--before the meeting first there was a little bit of talk. I don't remember what the chairman of the meeting said prior to the film starting.

They showed a film about a Senator or Congressman or legislator, some form of public servant who was running for reelection in Washington State, and the far right people wanted him out in a campaign, stating that his wife had connections with the Communist Party, and apparently she had had connections during her college days but had severed relations with the party and had given evidence to the FBI and an investigating team and apparently was clean at the time, or had no connection with the party at the time. And they showed in a film how the far right or an extremist movement could greatly damage a citizen that was of value to the United States. That was the essence of the film.

After the film there was discussion about the Civil Liberties and about the film in general and about the movement in the South and the integration movement and the talk concerning General Walker. The first notice I made of Oswald is when he stood up and made a remark about General Walker in reference to him not only being anti-Catholic but anti-Semitic in regard to his comments about the Pope. Then he made further comments that a night or two nights before he had been at the General Walker meeting here in Dallas. That was my first real notice of him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald said to the assembled group at that time that he had been to a meeting 2 days prior at which General Walker was present?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I think it was 2 days prior.

Mr. LIEBELER. That meeting would have been just the night before Mr. Stevenson came to Dallas?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; I think, or it could have been the same night. I don't remember the exact date.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say about General Walker?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. That was it. That was his comment about Walker, and it struck me at the time. I mean my ears perked up when he said Walker was anti-Catholic in reference to his comments about the Pope. I can quote that. That is exact. I am Catholic and I wanted to hear what he said. He didn't say what General Walker had said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any hostility toward General Walker either by words or by his deeds?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the time it seemed like Michael had commented to me prior that the man was a Marxist, and I have never met anyone before that I had known to be a Communist or a Marxist or Leninist or Red, and I was interested mainly to see what the man looked like, how he thought and what he felt. It seemed to me, in watching and listening to him, that rather than being violently against General Walker, he was stirring in dirty thoughts that you shouldn't like General Walker. He didn't say General Walker is a bad guy. He just made comments that General Walker is anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic, and he was spreading a little seed of thought. That was the way it impressed me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't get the feeling that Oswald had any particular violent thoughts towards General Walker?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I didn't at this time. I had no idea he was violent until I heard on the radio he had shot the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody respond to Oswald's remarks about General Walker?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. There were other people that discussed it, and then they discussed the bad display the people from the far right had put on when Mr. Stevenson was in Dallas, and it was regrettable that extremists would act like that. But any exact comment about General Walker I really don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything about this Stevenson affair?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I couldn't say. I don't really remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been at the meeting at which Stevenson had had his difficulty?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't tell me that. He told me, I think just me he had mentioned, if I remember exactly, he had mentioned to Michael and said, "I was there," in reference to the meeting of the General Walker group.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are the remarks that you have told us about, the only remarks that Oswald made to the entire group that evening?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. The only ones I can remember and swear that I know was the one in reference to General Walker not only being anti-Semitic but anti-Catholic and in regard to his comment about the Pope.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald comment on the John Birch Society as well as General Walker?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I know there was mention about him in the group. The group commented on the John Birch Society, and I don't remember exactly whether Oswald commented on them, too. I would like to be of help to you, but I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just give us the best recollection you have.

Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is it so far.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did Oswald impress you when he stepped up and addressed the group? Did he impress you as being articulate, intelligent, or was he not that way?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. At that particular time he just made the one statement. After the meeting, I talked to him for about 15 minutes primarily about economics.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was anyone there besides you and Oswald?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; there was a Mr. Byrd Helligas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he take part in the conversation with you and Oswald?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; a little bit, to the best of my memory. Oswald was the fellow that impressed me, and I was paying attention to what he was saying, and I am afraid that Mr. Helligas didn't make an impression on me. I don't remember what he said, except he did enter into the conversation at different times. I am afraid most of my attention was directed to Oswald. The hair was up on the back of my neck. I was irritated by the man a little. Not real bad, but he bothered me some.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it what he said that bothered you, or was it his attitude?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Attitude more than exactly what he said.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was his attitude?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, the attitude that I felt was that he was talking down to me. I felt like he was. That he was better than I was, to a certain degree, and he acted as if he had complete command of the argument and was on top all the time. I felt that a couple of different spots in the argument I had him practically beaten and he wouldn't accept my argument. He turned his back and would go down a different avenue.

Mr. LIEBELER. He figuratively turned his back?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; that is it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Reconstruct for us, as best you can, at this point, the discussion that you and Oswald had. Tell us as best you can recall what he said and what you said and what the argument was about.

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, after the meeting was over we went back to the back where they had coffee. I believe they had doughnuts, I am not sure, but they had a table of refreshments, at least, and I am sure there was coffee. I wasn't interested in the coffee.

Michael, my wife, and Oswald, and I, walked to the back of the room together. I approached Oswald and commented to him that Michael had told me about his political background a little bit, and I understood that he had been to Russia. I asked him what he felt communism had to offer that was better than he could find in the United States. He kind of shrugged his shoulders and didn't make any particular comment then.

I forget exactly the trend of talk at that particular moment, but as we talked for just a couple of minutes, or at any rate as we talked, I told him I had met his wife at the Paine's over in Irving and that he had a beautiful little girl, he should be real proud of them. And he commented, "They are nice." And that was to let it go at that.

I forget, or I do forget now about exactly what the next few comments were. We did start talking about communism versus capitalism. He said that in capitalism the employer exploits the worker. I asked him just what he meant by exploiting. He said he takes a man's labors and makes a profit from them without actually putting in any effort of his own. I said that wasn't true. I considered myself to be a capitalist, or at least to be a firm believer in the capitalistic system. At the present time I had an employer and he paid me a fair salary and I was real glad to work for him for the salary I got.

He commented that my employer was taking my efforts without putting in any efforts and was reaping a profit from my efforts, and he wanted to know if I thought that was fair or not?

And I said that I was happy. I am satisfied with what I have, and I feel it is fair, and I used an analogy that in turn I am an employer. I have two fellows who work for me building patterns for which I pay them $3 an hour and they are tickled to get the $3 an hour. They are real glad to get it. And that I make $4 an hour off of their efforts. My profit is $1 an hour, and that I bought the machinery, I bought the material. I have gone out and hunted up the work, and the $1 an hour from each of those two fellows is my wage for going out and getting the work, and my wage is comparable to my investment.

He said, you are exploiting labor. You are not doing any work. And he commented then, well, that is all right for you. In your society it is not a crime to exploit the worker. He didn't say, "to exploit the worker." He said, "In your society it is not a crime." He was referring to exploitation of the worker, supposedly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.

Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is really about all I remember from the conversation itself. Oh, wait a minute, we did talk about freedom. I asked him what about the freedom in Russia. And he said, "Well, they don't have as much actual freedom." I have forgotten what he said exactly in reference to where they didn't have the freedom. We were talking about actual civil liberties themselves in the United States versus Russia. He said the United States by far has more civil liberties.

I said, what do you think about the movement in the South in reference to Mr. Kennedy? And he said he thinks that Kennedy is doing a real fine job, a real good job, I have forgotten.

Mr. LIEBELER. So far as civil rights were concerned?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. That was the only comment that was made in reference to President Kennedy. I forget whether that was the only time he expressed any emotion, and I have forgotten the exact words, he is doing a real fine job, or very fine job. I can't remember exactly what he said.

He impressed me as having a lot of big words, and my immediate impression was he was fairly well read, but talking with Michael later and recalling the conversation later, it was pointed out, Michael brought it to my attention, and after I think about it I agree with Michael, that he had available to him a lot of two-bit vocabulary words, but not necessarily correctly used. This was a later impression, but the immediate argument, I was interested in what he was saying rather than how he was saying it and the way he had gone about saying it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were particularly impressed, however, by the emphasis that Oswald placed on his remark that President Kennedy was doing a good job as far as civil rights were concerned?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the immediate time I wasn't particularly impressed. After the President was murdered, I felt that there was at least an emphasis of note, if not connected. I do remember him saying, him placing emphasis on the way he said it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the impression you received of his attitude toward President Kennedy was one of approval and one of favor?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I would say yes. I don't know about President Kennedy in general, how he felt, but in reference to the civil rights issue, the impression I had was that he was favorably impressed by Mr. Kennedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald express his attitude toward any other government official, during the course of his conversation with you?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really remember. I have heard Michael Paine comment that Oswald had at one time written a letter and left it laying around the house, and that his wife, Ruth, had found this letter. It was in the typewriter. I can't remember exactly the details, but that he had referred to the notorious FBI. Apparently he didn't care for the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that before or after the assassination?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. It was after.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was after?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time of the assassination, however, you had no feeling that Oswald had any particular hostility toward any government official or toward the government in general? Would that be a fair statement?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really say because I don't know the exact time sequence. After a little time is passed, it is hard to pin it down.