Chapter XVII: Part 17

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?

Mr. SENATOR. From there I went downtown. I think I went to the Burgundy Room, if I am not mistaken, that night.

Mr. HUBERT. That is in the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and I met a friend of mine there, and we were feeling low. I was feeling low.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of the friend?

Mr. SENATOR. Bill Downey.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his occupation?

Mr. SENATOR. He is a traveling salesman who sells musical equipment and all the other stuff that goes with it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. SENATOR. Let’s see now, and Mike Barclay. He is an attorney.

Mr. HUBERT. The three of you were together?

Mr. SENATOR. Went out.

Mr. HUBERT. The three of you were together you say?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We went out to a bar and we had a beer or two, and everybody was low down and got disgusted, and they all wanted to go home including myself.

Mr. HUBERT. So you all did so?

Mr. SENATOR. So we all went home, and I think I got home about 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack there then?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Jack was there. He had eaten, and he said he was going out. Now, where he went I don’t know, but he said he was going out.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe his condition then?

Mr. SENATOR. His condition was in the same thing it was in the past.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it like it was in the morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He was in that same kind of condition.

Mr. HUBERT. He was no worse?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, it is hard to say how much worse it was. He didn’t look good.

Mr. HUBERT. The reason I asked that question is because——

Mr. SENATOR. You know when you say “worse,” I don’t know how to put words together, you know, in expressions, the expression of an individual’s face.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me show you what I mean. Perhaps you can help me when I tell you what I have in mind. You have told us earlier that you thought that his condition on Saturday morning was worse than it was on Friday night and early Saturday morning.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think the expression you used, “the thing was getting at him,” so that you formed the impression that the condition was worsening, isn’t that correct? Is that a fair statement?

Mr. SENATOR. That is the way it looked; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I ask you if you will give us a comparison.

Mr. SENATOR. I know what you are talking about, but I don’t know how to compare these things, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it worsening? Was it getting to him more? Did it seem to be getting to him more Saturday night as opposed to 12 hours earlier roughly Saturday morning?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was of the same nature or something like that. It wasn’t good, because for me to try to express, and I don’t know how to express a facial nature. It is just hard for me to put in words. If you take the complete facial expression and the eyes and all that, I am not a connoisseur at just being able to express these things, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I am just asking you for another comparison because you had given us a previous one, and I thought that another comparison between another period, two others periods, would be useful if you could give it to us, and that is all. I gather from you that your general impression was that there had not been much change in his condition over what it was on Saturday morning.

Mr. SENATOR. I will say something in the same nature.

Mr. HUBERT. That it was of the same nature?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what the nature of the conversation was between you two that night?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because when I walked in, he was just about on his way out. I asked him if he ate. I told him I bought groceries. He said, “Well, I ate already.” He ate.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you arrived did he leave?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, God, within 5 minutes. It was just that short, that fast, and out he went. Now, I don’t know where his visitation was. I don’t know if he went to see his sister.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t tell you where he was going?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Then or ever?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t tell me at all where he was going.

Mr. HUBERT. He never did tell you later?

Mr. SENATOR. No; and I didn’t ask him.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you don’t know where?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because when I went home, you know, when I got home I went to bed. I was going to bed.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went to bed about 10:30?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say about half an hour later, maybe around 11.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time he came in?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because I wasn’t awake.

Mr. HUBERT. The next time you saw him?

Mr. SENATOR. Was Sunday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you awaken on Sunday morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Sunday morning I assume it was somewhere around between 8 or 9, somewheres in that time. Just something in that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any way to fix it at all?

Mr. SENATOR. No; you see, when I was on the witness stand with Mr. Bill Alexander, now he tried to make me pinpoint it right down to the minute. It is highly impossible. If you are not watching a clock and don’t have one, how can you pinpoint these things? How can you really do it? How is it possible? How can you pinpoint time when you are not watching it?

Mr. HUBERT. In any case what you are saying, your best estimate is that it was——

Mr. SENATOR. I have to estimate it. Now, as I say when I estimate it, I can be 15 minutes, a half hour or maybe an hour off on time.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us earlier that when you went to bed as early as 11 o’clock you usually woke up quite early.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is why I say I probably woke up maybe around 8 or 9 that morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby——

Mr. SENATOR. Of course, I read in bed, you know. I read in bed.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby there when you woke up, or not?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was sleeping.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he waken?

Mr. SENATOR. Ruby must have woke up I assume it probably would have been maybe—of course, I have to guess again—I would assume somewheres around between 9 and 9:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Why don’t we put it in terms of how much after you did Ruby wake up. In other words, no matter what time you awoke, can you tell us how long after he awakened?

Mr. SENATOR. It could be maybe three-quarters of an hour or an hour. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your first distinct recollection of him that morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, the moment he got up he went to the bathroom, which is normal for him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him then?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I did. Of course, we turned on the TV. He had the TV going. He turned it on to see what the latest news was. Then he went to the bathroom. Of course, then he washed, and he went in and made his own breakfast. I only had coffee. He made himself a couple of scrambled eggs and coffee for himself, and he still had this look which didn’t look good.

Mr. HUBERT. Again I want to ask you, can you give us a comparison between the look that he had that morning, which you just described, as opposed to what it was on other occasions in the sense of whether it was growing worse or not?

Mr. SENATOR. He looked a little worse this day here. But if you ask me how to break it down, how he looks worse, how can I express it? The look in his eyes?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, is that one of the things?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is the way it seems.

Mr. HUBERT. The way he talked or what he said?

Mr. SENATOR. The way he talked. He was even mumbling, which I didn’t understand. And right after breakfast he got dressed. Then after he got dressed he was pacing the floor from the living room to the bedroom, from the bedroom to the living room, and his lips were going. What he was jabbering I don’t know. But he was really pacing. What he was thinking about——

Mr. HUBERT. That was after he was dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, what he was thinking about, I don’t know what he was thinking about. But he did, which I forgot to tell you, he did get that call from this Little Lynn from Western Union.

Mr. HUBERT. You remember the call?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you answer the phone?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he had already been up.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know it was Little Lynn?

Mr. SENATOR. I could hear him say. I heard him say Lynn, Western Union. I heard him mention Western Union. I heard about the money and that he was sending it to Fort Worth. She needed $25 for rent.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that?

Mr. SENATOR. I heard him mention $25 over the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. How did he mention it, that he would send $25?

Mr. SENATOR. He would send $25 to her by Western Union.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention that it was for rent?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he told me after it was for rent.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t hear Little Lynn ask for it?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t hear it.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course not.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore he must have told you.

Mr. SENATOR. He said she called, and, of course, I knew it was Lynn because I knew——

Mr. HUBERT. You knew who she was?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure.

Mr. HUBERT. But after he hung up, he told you that she needed $25 for rent?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention that she had called the night before?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not know that at the time?

Mr. SENATOR. If she did I don’t know. This I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time that call was?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. It could have been anywheres between 9:30, I am not sure, maybe 10. I am not sure what time it was. See now——

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get at it this way.

Mr. SENATOR. Now you are placing me from the time I woke up to the time Jack woke up, but I say with all these things I still have to guess the times.

Mr. HUBERT. That is why I am going to put it to you this way. The time of the call is known, and that is why I would like you to relate events backwards from that time, you see.

Mr. SENATOR. I know that I was off on the time because——

Mr. HUBERT. No; I am not trying to get you off. I am trying to get the facts, so let’s approach it this way. How long before the Little Lynn call would you estimate it was that Jack woke up?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t estimate the time, but I don’t think he was up too long.

Mr. HUBERT. You say he had gone to the bathroom and that he had cooked his breakfast and that he had gotten dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn’t dressed at the time Little Lynn called.

Mr. HUBERT. He was not dressed at the time?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he was still in his shorts. I think he was still in his shorts.

Mr. HUBERT. If you could help us on this it would be valuable for us to know about how long prior to the Little Lynn call did Jack actually get up. If you want to break that into segments as to how long it was before he started breakfast, and so forth, well, do that too. It may be helpful to you and it would be to us. I can help you if you want along these lines. Did the Little Lynn call come after he had finished his breakfast?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think that call came in before he had breakfast. I think it did. I think it was before breakfast. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. He answered the phone as I understand it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When he got up he went to the bathroom?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the call come while he was in the bathroom?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. After he left the bathroom he went to fix breakfast as I understand it.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if the call came in before or after he went to the bathroom. It was one of the two. I don’t know which. As I say, I would have to twist it.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t want you to twist it or to guess.

Mr. SENATOR. I have to guess. I have got to guess.

Mr. HUBERT. You have got to give your best estimation.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. If I don’t know I can’t answer it because I have got to guess on this. You put me to guesswork.

Mr. HUBERT. No; we don’t want to have you guess. We want your best estimation of the passage of time. If you don’t know, we certainly don’t want you to guess. But you were there and we weren’t. Therefore, we would like to know if you know. We don’t want you to guess.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I don’t know the times.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me give you another approach to assist you on this. You said that you might have awakened anywhere from 8 to 9 yourself, is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that it was as long as 1 hour after you awoke that the call came from Little Lynn?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. You know this is very complicated when you try to make a timepiece out of this. It really is. I mean especially if you are not watching the time and don’t know the time. It is just a complicated thing trying to place a time together.

Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but on the other hand when we have a fixed time, sometimes we can relate events to that time in terms of hours and half hours and so forth. That is what I am asking you to do now.

Mr. SENATOR. You see when you are relating all three there, in the relation of all three here from the time I got up to the time Jack got up to the time he had his breakfast, from the time that Little Lynn called I would be jamming all these things into maybe a half hour to an hour in differences, and they would all almost clog together because I would have to guess at all these, because, mind you, this wasn’t a great expanse of hours. This is why I say I will be guessing and have to be wrong. Mind you from the time that I wake up at 8 o’clock in the morning, supposedly around 8 or maybe it was 8:30 or 9, I have to have the answers, supposed to have the answers for what time I woke up, what time Jack got up, Little Lynn in the short span of hours, and it is hard to break these things down and be accurate.

Mr. HUBERT. We understand that, and the purpose is to find out if it is possible to know, and if your answer to us is that you can’t tell us, we don’t want you to guess.

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t tell you. The reason it is hard to tell you, because I would have to guess at all these and I have no hours. It was such a short span of hours, I would probably assume this whole thing would consummate maybe in what, approximately 2 hours, whatever it may be, maybe 2½ hours, I don’t know. Now, you know you have got to jam hours in for these three things to fit, and I can’t jam them together to make them fit.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if we can’t fix sequence of events instead of trying to fix hours. You got up first.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And Jack got up next.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then another fixed event is the time that he went to the toilet. That came next, didn’t it? He went to the bathroom?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then he fixed himself some breakfast.

Mr. SENATOR. Now you have asked me if he fixed breakfast first or the telephone call, I mean her call.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember which came first. Now I am guessing that the call came first. I am not sure. I can’t relate to be sure right now.

Mr. HUBERT. As to the sequence of those two events, we now know what your recollection is, and that is that it could have been before or it could have been after.

Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any event, he certainly dressed after he got the call, is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. And after breakfast.

Mr. HUBERT. And after breakfast?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then after he dressed he paced about some?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at least we have the sequence of events so far as we are able to put them together.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. We also know, you see, Mr. Senator, that as to one sequence, you don’t know. I am not critical of you because you don’t know, but we weren’t aware that you didn’t know until right now.

Mr. SENATOR. As I say, I mean when you take these four incidents and try to, you know, try to jam them all into this short span of hours, I just can’t break it down and be right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now let’s get to this. Was Jack normally a fast dresser or would you care to estimate whether it took him——

Mr. SENATOR. No; Jack was never a fast dresser or never a fast washer. He took his time. In other words, if I wanted to compare us, I could dress five times as fast as he could or shave or anything else that much quicker than he could.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that normally it took him a half hour to get dressed and shaved?

Mr. SENATOR. A half hour to get dressed and shaved? I would probably assume it would take something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. And do you think it took him that long on this morning?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if it took him that long.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case he did dress and you would think that that took him a half an hour?

Mr. SENATOR. I would only have to guess. I can’t say.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally it would have?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t assume the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally it would take him a half hour?

Mr. SENATOR. I would so surmise that it would.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did this pacing go on after he got dressed? It may have been a matter of only a couple of minutes, but if it was more than that, I think you would know it. I think if it was a half hour you would know it.

Mr. SENATOR. I would say that he paced back and forth 5 or 10 minutes. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Was it at that point that he left?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything upon leaving?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say?

Mr. SENATOR. He said, “George, I am taking the dog down to the club.”

Mr. HUBERT. Anything else?

Mr. SENATOR. That was it, and out he went.

Mr. HUBERT. He was fully dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. He was fully dressed.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe how he was dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he wore a hat, wore a suit and a shirt and tie.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say when he was coming back?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that is the only words he said when he walked out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him speak to Elnora Pitts on Sunday morning over the telephone?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who Elnora Pitts is?

Mr. SENATOR. It is a colored maid. No; I have heard that incident before, but I don’t remember this at all. I just don’t remember if he did or not. I can’t, in other words, I can’t refresh my mind whatsoever that Elnora called. Now, I could be wrong on this, but my mind is not fresh for that long.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that you were in a part of the house or outside the house maybe?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t out.

Mr. HUBERT. You never left the house?

Mr. SENATOR. I was in my shorts all the while, unless I—no, I don’t even know. Maybe I could have been in the bathroom. I am not even sure.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case you have no recollection of Elnora calling?

Mr. SENATOR. I do not remember at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it her custom to call when she was coming out there?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he—I don’t know, but I know that he has driven by to tell her to come up and clean the apartment sometimes or something of that nature. Now, I know he did that one time, but I don’t know if it is his custom to have her call or not. Maybe it had been, maybe it hadn’t been. I don’t know on that.

Mr. HUBERT. I know I am asking you for another estimate, but I would like to know what your view of it is. That is how long after Karen Bennett called did Jack leave the house?

Mr. SENATOR. Who? Oh, Little Lynn?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, Jack was still in his shorts then when she called.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes?

Mr. SENATOR. This I do remember.

Mr. HUBERT. He had to dress?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you are not sure whether he had fixed breakfast or not?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know which came first, if she called or he fixed breakfast first.

Mr. HUBERT. Leaving those aside, all I was asking was whether or not you could give us an estimate of the time from when Little Lynn called until he told you “I am leaving and I am going out and take this dog to the club.” Have you any idea at all? If you don’t, tell us.

Mr. SENATOR. Wait, wait, what time she called?

Mr. HUBERT. No; the time interval between when she called and when he left.

Mr. SENATOR. I will make a wild guess. I would say it was at least three quarters, it must have been about three quarters of an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. On what do you base it?

Mr. SENATOR. I am just guessing. I can’t base it on anything. I am only guessing.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it quite guessing? You knew he had to dress.

Mr. SENATOR. Sure you have got to dress.

Mr. HUBERT. So that took up some time.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; had to wash.

Mr. HUBERT. And you also say that he paced up and down for some little interval of time.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So when you characterize it as a wild guess——

Mr. SENATOR. I have got to guess.

Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if it is a guess so much as it is a putting together of these little segments of time and estimating what each would take.

Mr. SENATOR. I am saying I would have to guess. I would have to guess all this.

Mr. HUBERT. When you said three quarters of an hour, wasn’t it really the result of your thinking of how much time would be occupied to do these little segments of activity such as dressing and pacing up and down and so forth, and you added them up and came to about three quarters of an hour; wasn’t that your mental processes rather than a wild guess?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no, no. You asked me a question and I said I would have to guess it. You know it is really amazing to put hours together. Mind you, 5 months have elapsed already, and to try to put these hours together you have got to fluctuate. How can you be sure?

Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but——

Mr. SENATOR. You have got to fluctuate. It is strictly all guess work.

Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but your attention was directed specifically to these time lapses, not 5 months ago, but on that very day.

Mr. SENATOR. They were all guess work, they were all supposedly. I had to give guess works.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying now is that the times that you estimated then were guess works even on that very day as to the times on that very day? You were examined, weren’t you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About 3, 4, or 5 o’clock in the evening?

Mr. SENATOR. And I have always said I would have to guess the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Even as to that day you would have to guess the time?

Mr. SENATOR. That Sunday?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I always have to guess.

Mr. HUBERT. On Sunday you said you had to guess the time as to the earlier part of the day?

Mr. SENATOR. I had to guess the time Saturday, I had to guess the time Sunday when he woke me up. I was only guessing it was around 3 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. You see the reason why I am bringing that to your attention is that you stated a moment ago that it is difficult for you to recall these things after 5 months. But I was inviting your attention to the fact that your memory had been directed to these intervals of time for the first time not today, but on that very day, and your answer to me is that even on that day you were guessing as to the intervals of the earlier part of the day; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Of times?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Of times.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fair statement?

Mr. SENATOR. If a man doesn’t see a clock, or doesn’t see a watch, what else can he do? What else can you go by?

Mr. HUBERT. All I am saying is that even on the 24th when the police and the FBI asked you about these segments of time on that same day, your statement to us is that even then you were largely guessing?

Mr. SENATOR. I would have to guess the approximate times. If you can tell me if you don’t see a clock or a watch, how do you tell?

Mr. HUBERT. You might be able to tell by remembering what TV program was going on at the time. Do you, at any particular time?

Mr. SENATOR. At that time I believe it was something about the late President, but I don’t just recall what it was, but I believe it was——

Mr. HUBERT. Practically everything that day was. You don’t remember any specific part?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t; no. I don’t remember any specific part.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack look at it, too? I think you said he did. Did he make a particular comment as to a particular part then being shown?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was the last time you saw Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me get this straight. Were you awake, did you wake up on Sunday morning before Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Sunday morning? Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have an actual recollection of that, or are you stating this because it was almost always your practice that you did wake up before Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. I always—I would say 95 percent of the time I was up before him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But on this day do you have any recollection?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know. He was asleep because when I got up he was still in bed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up, as I understand; you made some breakfast for yourself?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I had coffee. I made coffee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Coffee?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In this period between the time you got up and the time that Jack left the apartment, did you remain in the apartment the entire period?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I was still in my shorts when he left the apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you visited by anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That day?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or that morning?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know which are the neighbors in that apartment? Let me start over again? You lived at that South Ewing address on that very same floor right next to Jack for 11 months, approximately?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before this Sunday we are talking about. Now, did you know any of the other people who lived in the apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Just to say hello, but that is about as far as it went.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Sidney Evans?

Mr. SENATOR. Sidney Evans?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. If I did, I don’t know them by name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about a man named Malcolm Slaughter?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They work for the Red Ball Freight Company or Motor Express, truck drivers apparently.

Mr. SENATOR. Did they live there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. They were supposed to; yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. If I did, I don’t know them by name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know the people who lived across the hall from you?

Mr. SENATOR. When you say across the hall, it was a =U=. That was just by the U shape.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A balcony sort of a situation?

Mr. SENATOR. A balcony, but it was a =U=. In other words, when I walked out of my door, if I kept walking and went over the bannister I would hit the ground. There was nobody facing me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about on either side?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack was on one side. Then there were some girls on the other side. The next apartment over there were three girls, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That =U= that you are talking about, is it sort of a stairwell, is that it? The =U= is on one floor of the stairwell?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were three suites on the landing that you people were on? There was the old suite that you occupied, Jack’s suite which you were living in on the 24th, and the suite occupied by some girls?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; then it went down further. That wasn’t the end of the strip.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a hallway, wasn’t there?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was a balcony.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A balcony?

Mr. SENATOR. A railing—I mean you are outdoors. There is nothing concealed. It was just a railing and you are looking outdoors.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you opened out onto this balcony?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Along this balcony, how many other suites were there along that balcony?

Mr. SENATOR. Running our way, you have got to transplant in your mind—in other words, say that I am facing my door right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. And the balcony goes =U=-shaped like this. Do you follow me? In other words, this is all space out here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Everything in front of you is space?

Mr. SENATOR. Space. Now right past mine, if you turn to the right of mine, then you walk down another balcony. See, there are balconies on this side plus balconies this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now along this same level that you were on, and following the whole set of balconies around on the same level, how many different——

Mr. SENATOR. The entire level.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. How many different?

Mr. SENATOR. This is another guesswork. I would say, I would sort of estimate around a dozen places, a dozen apartments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now these dozen different apartments, was there a single stairway that led up to that level, or was there more than one stairway?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was two stairways. There was one from the front, there was one level that come up South Ewing. In other words, you drive around through the back where you park your cars and come up this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Another stairway?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on this level how many of those dozen suites there perhaps—how many of those people did you know?

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t know any. I never had a conversation with any of them. Now I said hello to the girls next door, but I never talked to them, never had a conversation with them. Of course, they were young girls, not of my category. And the people on the sides, I didn’t know any of them. In other words, anybody who walked in, you know, you would say hello whether you knew them or not. But there wasn’t a conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, I want to carry this on a little bit from what happened after Jack left the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. I promised him that we would stop at 5 because he expressed the fact that he was somewhat fatigued. He has been up since 2:30. I think rather than get into another segment we might adjourn for the day. You were turning to another subject?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I was going to take him up to the time when he left the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. That I think would be another subject.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, the interval between when Jack left and——

Mr. HUBERT. We have it now to the point where Jack has left the apartment, and I think that is a good stopping point. It is a quarter past 5 and I had promised we would stop at 5.

Mr. SENATOR. I am not mad at you.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED

The testimony of George Senator was taken at 8:35 a.m., on April 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, you will understand that this is a continuation of the deposition which was begun yesterday, and that Mr. Griffin and I, who are examining you, are doing so under the same authority and under the same conditions as were indicated to you at the beginning of the deposition yesterday. Likewise, I take it that you understand, unless I hear to the contrary that you are still under the same oath which you took at the commencement of the testimony on yesterday; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the end of the session on yesterday we reached the point where on Sunday, November 24, you had left your apartment or you were leaving your apartment, as I recall it. Your testimony was that Mr. Ruby had already left. I think you fixed, but just for the purpose of continuity at the moment, would you now try to fix the approximate time at which he left?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean when I left?

Mr. HUBERT. No; when he left.

Mr. SENATOR. To me, I thought it was somewheres between 10:15 and 10:30. Of course, I found out hereafter in the courtroom that I was wrong, but this at that time was the approximate figure that I had that he left.

Mr. HUBERT. You told us yesterday that whatever time it was, your thought was that it was approximately three-quarters of an hour after he received the call from Little Lynn?

Mr. SENATOR. No. At the time he left—in my courtroom statement there I fixed the time at approximately 10:15 or 10:30. That is where I thought he had left around that time.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you now to fix it not in point of clock time but in point of how many hours or minutes it was, or parts of hours it was, after the long distance call from Little Lynn in which you understood that she asked for $25.

Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say it would probably be approximately somewhere, I imagine somewhere between three-quarters to an hour. Now this is about as close as I can think of it.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you base that upon two considerations, at least that you stated to us yesterday. That he was not yet dressed.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When Little Lynn called?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And that he got dressed and cleaned up, washed up?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then spent some short, relatively short period of time pacing around, as you said?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Before leaving. And that you estimated yesterday I think it was about three-quarters of an hour.

Mr. SENATOR. Three-quarters of an hour. I mean this is just an estimation.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when he left he told you he was taking the dog Sheba down to the club?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he made no other comment?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say what time he was coming back?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no mention of anything at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what did you do next? How long did you stay in the apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. After he left I’m still sitting around in my shorts yet. I’m not dressed or not washed or anything outside of having a cup of coffee. I had coffee.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have TV on?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I’ll tell you, after he left I was reading the Sunday paper.

Mr. HUBERT. And you cut off the TV?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I didn’t have the TV going. I was just reading. I read the paper, and from there I washed, shaved, got dressed, and took a ride downtown, and as I say, this place, the Eatwell——

Mr. HUBERT. How long after Ruby left did you leave?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say it was about three-quarters of an hour, I guess, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you went directly to the Eatwell?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You used your Volkswagen, I think you said?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you park, do you remember?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I parked right by the Eatwell.

Mr. HUBERT. There is a parking lot there?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it is right on the street. You know Sunday there is no difficulty.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then take it from there. Tell us what happened.

Mr. SENATOR. So I went in there. I sat down there. Now, this is the place that I go every morning, you know, rather Sunday or Monday because I don’t like to sit indoors. So I went there and had a cup of coffee. Then the first thing—then I had another cup of coffee. Now, on my second cup of coffee I heard the girl, the waitress—now where she got her information from I don’t know. It had to be either telephone or radio, I don’t know which. Maybe they had the radio on.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice any kind of a radio of any type in the restaurant?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they usually have any?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, what happened?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. The first time she said she heard that somebody shot Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Was she speaking to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no, it was loud; but it happened to be she was near me.

Mr. HUBERT. There were other people in the place?

Mr. SENATOR. Not a lot. There were others you know, the usual morning Sunday business in the restaurant is sort of minute. So what I did when I heard that, I called up the lawyer. I was going to give him the news. I figured he would probably be sitting home, you know, Jim Martin, who happens to be a friend of mine. But when I called him. I spoke to his daughter and she told me her dad and mother were in church. Dad would be home in half an hour. I said all right, maybe I’ll call him back.

A short while later, the same girl, the same waitress hollered out that the man—she wasn’t pronouncing the name right, the Carousel Club, but I sort of got the drift of the name and she hollered Jack Ruby killed Oswald. This is what she come up with later.

Mr. HUBERT. How much later?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say about 5 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. But it was after you had called Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after I called Martin.

Mr. HUBERT. You called Martin right away?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I was going to tell him that. I didn’t think he would be—of course, I didn’t know he was going to church or anything.

Mr. HUBERT. He is a close friend of yours?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He is an attorney there; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then?

Mr. SENATOR. Then when I heard that again, then I went up to see him. Of course, I froze in that chair there. I said my God, I didn’t know what in the world to think. Then I went up there and I no sooner got there, he had just got there, I don’t know, I think a moment or two before me. His wife and daughter had just come out of church.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to his home, you mean?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I went to his house. I told Jim and he said, “I heard already. I saw it on TV.”

Mr. HUBERT. He was already at his house, you said?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was home already.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after your phone call to him do you suppose you got to his house?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he lived quite a ways. I would probably say it was about a 20-minute ride.

Mr. HUBERT. You left the Eatwell just as soon as the girl announced that the man who had shot Oswald was Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. I finished my coffee. I had about a half a cup left, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not attempt to call Martin again?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t call him. I just went direct. I figured if he wasn’t home I’d wait for him.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your reason for wanting to see Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, after all, this was my roommate. No particular reason. I happened to know he was a lawyer.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to him as a lawyer or as a friend?

Mr. SENATOR. As a friend, as a friend. So I went up there and said, “Jim, what in the world are we going to do?”

Mr. HUBERT. I take it from what you said a moment ago, “After all, he was my roommate”, that you felt some concern for yourself.

Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you how I felt. I knew after this had happened, I thought it was best that I volunteered than somebody come after me.

Mr. HUBERT. You thought that somebody would be coming after you?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, eventually they would have to. Eventually somebody would have to be coming after me. After all, I was his roommate.

Mr. HUBERT. I assume you were going to see Martin really to seek his advice as a lawyer as well as a friend?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; what to do. What should I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that true of the phone call as well?

Mr. SENATOR. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Was that motivation true of the phone call to Martin as well?

Mr. SENATOR. No. The first call, I was just going to tell him that I heard that Oswald was shot, which the girl told me. But on the second time—I didn’t——

Mr. HUBERT. You realized your position at that time as being his roommate and that gave you concern because you thought that the police might be picking you up?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure.

Mr. HUBERT. And you thought you had better have the advice of a lawyer?

Mr. SENATOR. To ask him what to do. Should I go down there or what?

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do in fact?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, we went down there. We went down there and, of course, we had a tough time getting in. When we got down the place was just jammed.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you at Martin’s house, speaking to him?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say maybe 5 minutes, maybe 10 minutes something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you in effect ask him what you should do?

Mr. SENATOR. I asked him what I should do and I thought it would be best to go down. He thought so, too.

Mr. HUBERT. It was your suggestion that it would be best to go down, or his.

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was a combination of both.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, within about 5 minutes the decision had been made?

Mr. SENATOR. 5 or 10, something like that. I’m not sure of the exact time.

Mr. HUBERT. The decision had been made to go down to the police department. Now, what was the purpose of going down there?

Mr. SENATOR. I went down there, I thought it would be best if I go down there than to be picked up, because after all, I’m his roommate and I know they are going to eventually pick me up, because I was living with him.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the idea was that you were going to go down there and say, “Now look, I’m George Senator. I was a roommate of Jack Ruby’s and do you have anything to ask of me?” That was it?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was in the nature of that; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Incidentally, a moment ago you said that you were sleeping with Jack Ruby, and in some circles sleeping with someone is——

Mr. SENATOR. I said I was what?

Mr. HUBERT. You were sleeping with Jack Ruby.

Mr. SENATOR. I was sleeping with him?

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that.

Mr. SENATOR. I never said that, never.

Mr. HUBERT. I misunderstood you then.

Mr. SENATOR. You sure did.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not mean——

Mr. SENATOR. You sure did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did I hear that right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I did not catch it.

Mr. SENATOR. You sure did.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, if I did hear that I was wrong about that?

Mr. SENATOR. You definitely were wrong. You definitely were wrong. I don’t even remember this incident being said.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all right. I just wanted to get it clear, because some people might misunderstand the phrase, and I would not want that to be misunderstood if it were not true.

Mr. SENATOR. It definitely isn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. So when you got there, what happened?

Mr. SENATOR. The place was mobbed, and, of course, I believe there were a couple of police attendants by the elevator as we got off.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go, in fact?

Mr. SENATOR. Actually, I didn’t know where to go. We went upstairs.

Mr. HUBERT. What entrance, do you remember?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I guess the front entrance, we went up.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to the Chief of Police office, or what office?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what office I was at.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whom you reported to or whom you were with?

Mr. SENATOR. First we were mobbed. I told these people, these two policemen, whoever they were I don’t know, I told them who I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were they stationed?

Mr. SENATOR. They were right by the elevator as you got off.

Mr. HUBERT. As you got off on one of the upper floors?

Mr. SENATOR. One of the floors. I don’t remember what floor it was on.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were not mobbed, as you put it, or you did not speak to anybody as you came into the building?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. On the ground floor?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But as you got off, whatever floor it was, two policemen stopped you; is that the idea?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I was with Jim Martin.

Mr. HUBERT. And when they stopped you, they asked your name I suppose?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you told them?

Mr. SENATOR. Told them who I was. And then, you know, the place was mobbed and there was a bunch, whoever these people were, reporters or whatever, there were some of them there. They happened to overhear it, and they mobbed me. They mobbed me.

Then eventually two great big policemen came over and one grabbed me on one side of the arm, you know, they looked like giants to me, and one on the other side and they took me into this room. Remember I told you they put me into a little sort of solitary room.

Mr. HUBERT. That is on the same floor?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. And I don’t remember how long. I mean I had no way of knowing time that I was in there in this room there waiting for somebody who was going to—they said to wait there, I don’t know. They kept me in this room. Then somebody finally approached me. They wanted a statement.

Mr. HUBERT. You got there, I suppose, about 20 or 30 minutes after leaving Martin’s house?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say something like that, between 20 and 30 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were, almost immediately after getting off on one of the upper floors of the building, mobbed by the press group and taken by these two policemen?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And put into a room on the same floor?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then was Mr. Martin with you?

Mr. SENATOR. He was with me, but he never, you know, when they took me to this room they wouldn’t let him in.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask to go in or to remain with you?

Mr. SENATOR. He says “I’m his lawyer”; he was my lawyer. But we still were separated.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask that he be allowed to remain with you?

Mr. SENATOR. He wanted to get in.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you remember whether he actually asked to get in with you?

Mr. SENATOR. It seemed like he wanted to get in. I mean I don’t remember the exact words that he said, because they wouldn’t let him in, so apparently he was trying to get in too.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you were placed under arrest?

Mr. SENATOR. No, never placed under arrest.

Mr. HUBERT. When you were escorted to this room and sat down, was the door locked?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you told to remain there?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any guards on the door?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you handcuffed?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say you don’t know how long you remained there?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t tell. This was a little tiny room. It looked like where they keep some inventory books—not books, probably paper goods or something like that. It was a very small room.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you hear what was going on outside the room?

Mr. SENATOR. No, couldn’t hear a thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the room have any windows in it?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the light on?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. It was very small. It was a very small room. As I say, it must be a room like they keep paper goods, things of that nature, or something like that in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the police search you or frisk you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. They did not take anything away from you?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I wasn’t under arrest at all.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was the next thing that happened?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, finally, I don’t remember this man’s name, you may have a note of it, I assume he was a detective. He was in plain clothes. He questioned me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he question you in that same room, or take you outside?