Chapter XXX: Part 30

However, Wade never permitted this to be used at the trial, and it also goes into telling of many cases that were reversed because of incidents similar to those which took place at my brother Jack’s trial, and states for these many reasons that the verdict should be reversed for all of these mistakes or negligence or whatever you may call it on the part of the court and the State’s attorney.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it correct, do I have the correct understanding then, that in a sense we can break this down into two parts: One part of the document deals with the facts that have to do with Jack’s obsession?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the other part has to do with the legal errors in the trial?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; right—correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me direct myself to some of the factual issues that are raised by Exhibit No. 1. I have made some notes here as you have been talking, and I want you, after we cover this, to tell me if I have left anything out that you think is important, but I want to try to cover this in orderly fashion. I am going backward though.

One issue that you raised here was that District Attorney Wade had withheld certain psychiatric evidence at the trial that had been turned over to him by the FBI.

Mr. RUBY. By the FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was that your brother Jack had received psychiatric help at age 10 and none of the family members knew about it?

Mr. RUBY. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to tell us what your present understanding is now as to how Jack happened to get this psychiatric treatment, and where it was administered, and for how long, and the other details?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know that but the FBI gave that information to Wade, and Tonahill has that information in Dallas but I don’t have the exact dates.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you know where he got the psychiatric aid?

Mr. RUBY. In Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what institution?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say Tonahill has this information?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how this evidence happened to be given, or let me ask you this, how do you know this evidence was given by the FBI to Mr. Wade?

Mr. RUBY. Tonahill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tonahill has told you?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that it was given to Wade by the FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Tonahill learn about this?

Mr. RUBY. That I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Tonahill——

Mr. RUBY. Well, he handled all the contacts with the FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tonahill did?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; more or less.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your understanding that the work of the trial team was divided up in such a way that only Tonahill dealt with the FBI, for the most part?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; as far as I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, so you have no personal information, further personal information, at this time about this psychiatric help which Jack got at age 10?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack was 10 was he living in the home?

Mr. RUBY. In a foster home, yes; so far as I can understand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that would have made you 6, is that right?

Mr. RUBY. Would have made me 6.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at age 6?

Mr. RUBY. To tell you the truth, I don’t know but I think I was living in Chicago, of course, and I don’t remember the name. I think the name of the people were Speeves, but I don’t know if I went to the farm, they sent me to a farm for a year, whether I was on a farm at the time but anyhow we weren’t together those years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For how many years were you separated from the rest of the family as a child?

Mr. RUBY. To tell you the truth, I don’t know when it started. I would say 5, 6 years maybe. I was in three foster homes that I remember all together. I know I was on a farm, and then at two foster homes that I can distinctly remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember how old you were when you returned to the home of your family, your mother’s and father’s home?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I think it was in 1928, 1928, so I must have been 13 years old.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that would have made Jack 17.

Mr. RUBY. Seventeen; I am not sure whether it was—I just don’t remember. It has got to be a little before that. Because I went to that Shepherd School for a few years, it had to be there from 1925 to 1928, but I don’t know exactly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living in the home when you went to the Shepherd School?

Mr. RUBY. You mean was I living with the family?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack living with the family at that time?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is when we were all brought back together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack finished high school at that time?

Mr. RUBY. No, no; Jack didn’t finish high school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; but was Jack still attending school when he returned to the home?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recall how long Jack continued to attend school after you returned to the family, to your family?

Mr. RUBY. No; I know he graduated from that Shepherd School but when I don’t know. As far as I know he graduated from that school and then he went to Marshall High School for a while and then he dropped out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Another thing that you mentioned that we were discussing in Exhibit 1, that Mr. Dann had assembled some facts and had discussed Jack’s efforts to show that the Jews are good people by himself helping gentiles.

Now I want you to go back and comb your recollection of the period you lived with and worked with Jack for incidents when you can recall of your own knowledge of Jack helping gentiles, or helping people in general, let’s not limit it to Jews or gentiles.

Mr. RUBY. Well, even when we were in business, we had that problem which came up several times, where he would take some of the merchandise, like our pens that we were using, and salt and pepper shakers, and almost every day or two he would take a load of samples. When I asked him he would say, “Well, a nice guy here or there and I gave him one or two, what difference does it make”, in the meantime he was giving them out all the time. If anybody wanted one he would just give it to them. But at that time no remark was made as far as I can remember as to why he did it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you be able to give us names of any people who, you know might have been the beneficiaries of this?

Mr. RUBY. I wouldn’t remember, because I wouldn’t know where, but most of this took place or a great part of it anyhow in Dallas, and the names of those I think we could get.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about as far as you are concerned, of course, you knew him in Chicago, how about people that you can think of that Jack would have extended these kindnesses to in Chicago?

Mr. RUBY. I couldn’t remember any names because there was no reason to remember this, and this goes back so far. It is 20 years at the earliest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you also mentioned that your brother had a great love for President Kennedy. Can you give us some examples of that?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I didn’t realize it, I mean, because I haven’t been with him since the Kennedy family and Kennedy himself, to really become involved in politics because he was in Dallas and I was in Chicago and in Detroit. However, I know that when they, I think it was the Dallas Morning News printed that full page, whatever you call that, statement——

Mr. GRIFFIN. The black bordered advertising?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; the black bordered advertising which more or less definitely insulted the President, he went to the paper and asked them if they needed the money so bad that they had to print such a horrible thing even though the other paper had turned it down.

And I think you know he was so upset about seeing that sign on the roadside about “Impeach Earl Warren” that in the middle of the night he got his roommate out and got Jerry Crafard, I think his name was, to take a picture of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know why he was upset about it?

Mr. RUBY. Well, he couldn’t see why anything like that could happen. Here is another great man, and he just couldn’t understand it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you surmising this or did——

Mr. RUBY. Well, I talked to George Senator who was his roommate, he said he was infuriated that a sign like that should be put up. And that was brought out in the trial, of course, and proved.

Then he on the night of the assassination, or rather on the afternoon he immediately closed the club, and when he was asked if he—what about the other night club owners because there is another, I think one or two clubs on the same block as his, yes, there are two more, whether they are going to close or not, in a statement he made, he doesn’t care if they close or not, he is going to be closed in respect to the President.

Then he went to the services at the synagogue in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how long he was at that service?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know how long, but I know that he broke down terribly there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody who——

Mr. RUBY. I heard it from the Rabbi who was there, that he was—of course, most of the people there were broken up but he was most unusual because he was in deep tears, he really was. And he was so upset and so disgusted with this situation that he called my sister Eileen in Chicago and told her this is a good time to get out of Dallas. He is ashamed of it, that this thing could happen there, and he will probably—he wants to come up to Chicago for a few days, you know, to visit with her. Well, she discouraged him from coming up. He wanted to come to Chicago, and he also called my brother Hy in Chicago after the assassination, and told him how terrible it was, and he thinks he is going to get out of Dallas, he is coming back to Chicago altogether.

He also called his good friend, this was all brought out in the trial, not all of it but most of it, although those last two incidents about him calling my brother and my sister were never entered into evidence. We couldn’t understand that.

He also called a fellow in California, Al Gruber, I think is his name, and Gruber said he just couldn’t talk. He just couldn’t talk he was so broken up.

So we know he was really broken up, and he must have really loved him because otherwise you just don’t do these things. And the fact that he went to the newspaper and complained to them for even taking the ad, and I mean nobody else did this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any examples of his conduct in Dallas before the President was shot that would show his feeling toward President Kennedy?

Mr. RUBY. No; We don’t have—nothing that I know of. We don’t have anything that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you can give us some more examples of——

Mr. RUBY. There is a bit about his patriotism that might mean something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.

Mr. RUBY. This happened many years ago. They were playing the Star Spangled Banner in the stadium in Chicago before all sporting events, and a friend who was with him, a fellow by the name of Mr. Kolitz told me this himself, he was smoking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is Mr. Kolitz’s first name?

Mr. RUBY. Ira. He was smoking when the Star Spangled Banner was playing and my brother insisted he put out his cigarette, that it wasn’t in good taste to be smoking when the Star Spangled Banner was being played.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your brother didn’t approve of smoking either, did he?

Mr. RUBY. No; he didn’t smoke at all. Well, neither do I, for that matter. But this I didn’t find out about until a couple of months ago because I ran into this party in Chicago, and you know talking about these things, and he says, “How could they accuse your brother of being a Communist”, and then he related this incident to me. He says, “I remember, you know at the stadium when this happened, and he actually insisted I put the cigarette out.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack in your dealings with him, did he strive to be important and did he strive for recognition, things like that?

Mr. RUBY. I would say, well, he tried to be a success. He always wanted to be a success in life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his idea of being a success?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, having a family and being happily married and earning a steady living.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about his desires to have a family?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; on a few occasions. Once when he had financial failure and he was terribly depressed back in the early fifties, I think, he came to Chicago. He was just terribly depressed and he says, “Well, it looks like it is the end for me.” And, you know, he had no—he was penniless, and I tried to help him out again there. I was trying to look around for a business for him, to be truthful with you because we were doing pretty well, making a living, a good living, and I thought I could help him out but he decided to go back to Dallas again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, there have been reports that Jack was the kind of a person who liked, who wanted everybody to know him and liked to be a big shot, some people might say. Did you have any experiences with him that would indicate anything about those kind of observations?

Mr. RUBY. Well, he was pretty well known in Chicago. He always was a good athlete, a good ballplayer. He was a very great swimmer, and he was very close to Barney Ross, so I would say—and he had many friends, so he was pretty well liked, and maybe some people would get the impression that he was a big shot but actually I don’t think he ever went out of the way to try to show people he was a big shot.

However, maybe I didn’t notice it because I am his brother. And he was my older brother, and so maybe I just didn’t notice it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you can explain what seems to be on the one hand signs of his obsessions about being a Jew, such as you pointed out as fighting the Bundists and things like that, and on the other hand, what appears to be a lack of regular devotion to going to church services every week and keeping the religious home, and so forth?

Mr. RUBY. Well, the reason for that is I am more or less the same way as I explained before because in the breaking up of our home we were drawn away from this life, you see. I was living with—on a farm—I was living with gentile people and there wasn’t any synagogue there to go to, and so we drifted away from the services. And because before that we used to go to the Hebrew school, before our home was broken up, we all went to Hebrew school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn Hebrew?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure. Jack and—we went only until our home was broken up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were living in your home, did your parents keep a kosher home?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; definitely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was a kosher home?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; definitely. Oh, sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To what extent was it a kosher home?

Mr. RUBY. We would call it orthodox, you know, change of dishes and all that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dietary rules?

Mr. RUBY. Sure; that is right. Sure, sure. But, of course, when we——

Mr GRIFFIN. What language was spoken in the home?

Mr. RUBY. To our parents Yiddish, you would call it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your parents speak English?

Mr. RUBY. Very little; very few words.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you willing to make this statement that your conversations with your parents were always in Yiddish?

Mr RUBY. No, no; I can’t say that because my father spoke a little English.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about with your mother?

Mr. RUBY. My mother I would say in her conversations she threw in a word here or there in English; about 95 percent was Yiddish. My father picked up more English words because, in fact, he was working as a carpenter, and being out among English-speaking people more than, more so than my mother who was home all the time, he had an opportunity to learn some English words.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when the children got older, the family continued to live together, as I understand it, there was a home where all of the unmarried children and the parents lived?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In that home up until the time that your mother died, did you observe, were the dietary practices observed all the time?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure. Every Passover we changed the dishes, and so on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but that is just once a year. What about on a daily basis, did you observe every day the dietary——

Mr. RUBY. Well, you don’t observe it every day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, some homes do.

Mr. RUBY. I don’t understand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Some homes keep separate dishes for meat and dairy products.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; we had separate dishes until my mother passed away.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the regularity of attending church services, temple services, did you go every week to temple services?

Mr. RUBY. No, no; not all of us. I know I didn’t. My sisters did. My sister did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which sister?

Mr. RUBY. Marion. My father did until he became ill, you know, and then he passed away.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any resentment in the home toward the practices that were maintained by your parents there, failure to converse regularly in English and perhaps their old world habits?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t understand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which is common in all families, I think, in which the practices that are observed in the home are not the kind of practices that you see on television or in the movies. Was there resentment among any of the children toward the fact that here was a home in which a foreign language was spoken, and practices were observed which did not appear to be the same practices as the people who were on top in American society?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I would say so. However, my mother insisted that we follow the lines of the Orthodox Jew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of you object to that insistence by your mother?

Mr. RUBY. No; nothing because there wasn’t too much to object to, because it was the same food. I mean there is really nothing—however, if we would take the wrong utensil, you know, because there are two separate ones, we would be bawled out for taking the wrong one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, Jack during the time that he was in Chicago lived for various periods outside the home, didn’t he?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For example, I believe he lived with either Sam Gordon or Alex Gruber in a separate apartment in Chicago in the early thirties. Do you recall that?

Mr. RUBY. I know he lived with Gruber but I don’t know how long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well——

Mr. RUBY. Because it was in the early thirties, I was going to high school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any particular reason why Jack did not want to live with the family?

Mr. RUBY. None that I can remember. There may have been, but I may not be, you know, I wasn’t aware of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He also was away from Chicago from about 1933 to 1937.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think he went to ’Frisco to work there; yes. I think he went there. I think my sister was there or he went first, I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know his friend Leon Cooke?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; very well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Leon Cooke of Jewish background?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with Jack’s activities with Leon Cooke in the labor union?

Mr. RUBY. A little bit. I think I knew——

Mr. GRIFFIN. What can you tell us about that, what—how long did Jack work in the union?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I know as far as I know, I think he helped organize it. It was Leon Cooke’s idea. Leon Cooke was an attorney and his father, Mr. Cooke, was a scrap iron and junk handler, and for some reason or another of his own thinking he decided that it would be a good idea to organize a union because the—although he was doing very well as an attorney without it, the workers in this industry were being paid, I think at that time, 10 cents or 15 cents an hour, and it was actually slave wages practically, as you can easily understand, and so they organized the union or how they go about it I don’t even know, but they did, Leon Cooke and Jack helped organize it, but I think Leon did all the legal work.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of anybody else who helped in the organizing efforts?

Mr. RUBY. Even I went out once to hand out those flyers, you know, “join the union.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you hand them out and what would you do?

Mr. RUBY. Well, they would come out from work and I would just hand it to them, as they leave the plant, just hand it to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever make any personal contacts with members, with employees?

Mr. RUBY. No; never. I just——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other people that you know of who worked in the union with Jack?

Mr. RUBY. I think my brother Hy worked for a little while in the union.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Sam work in the union?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so. I only went there on very rare occasions, very rare. I may have been to one or two meetings in all. I didn’t get paid for it either, just, you know, kicks just to hand out the flyers, that is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of any other people who were involved in the union?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I know John Martin, he was the president.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He is the fellow who was killed?

Mr. RUBY. No; he shot Leon Cooke.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He shot Leon Cooke. Is John Martin still living?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I know there was another fellow but I can’t think of his name. There was a fellow by the name—I can’t think of their names. They had odd names. Of course, that goes back in the thirties, I think, right in there somewhere. I don’t even remember where it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Leon Cooke a fellow about your brother’s age?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So Jack would have been in the late twenties at the time that he and Leon formed the union?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I don’t know what year it was even. I don’t even remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was in the late thirties, wasn’t it.

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I really don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any girls that Jack dated?

Mr. RUBY. In Chicago?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. Offhand not even one because he was, as I said, 4 years older than I was and we didn’t run around together. I know of the one he went with in Dallas, which was, I think she was—I don’t know if she testified at the trial or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Alice Nichols?

Mr. RUBY. Alice Nichols.

Mr. GRIFFIN. She is not a Jewish girl, is she?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it seem to be Jack’s practice to get interested in women who are, what do you call them, shiksas?

Mr. RUBY. No; I really don’t know because I don’t know too much. You see he traveled in a different—I am trying to think. When he was going to Marshall High School that is when you usually start going with girls. I don’t recall those days because I was too young.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am interested in exploring with you, if you can in a somewhat objective fashion, is some of the contrast between evidence you have shown us with his obsession with the fact that he was a Jew, and other indications that, for example, his dating girls who were gentiles and his living outside of the home away from the Jewish practices which might indicate that he had some desire to escape his Jewish background. Did you see any evidence of that?

Mr. RUBY. No; that I wouldn’t—because believe it or not, when my mother passed away and also my father, you know, we have to go say services, we are supposed to say services for a year every day and I didn’t keep it up, but he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack went to services after your——

Mr. RUBY. Mother died.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Every day?

Mr. RUBY. Every day as far as I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was this temple that he attended services at?

Mr. RUBY. Well, there was one, I know, up——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these temples in Chicago?

Mr. RUBY. One was in Chicago, I can’t think of the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your mother died while Jack was still in Chicago. When was that?

Mr. RUBY. 1944.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack was in the service?

Mr. RUBY. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know he did that?

Mr. RUBY. He told us he went to services. You can say services there too as long as the chaplain——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he have to go before a rabbi or chaplain of some sort?

Mr. RUBY. Really not necessarily; it is not—because they say if it isn’t available, you can still say the prayer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This could be something he could have done on his bunk, his cot in the Army?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. There he had access to a chaplain though because it wasn’t a large camp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. When I say you don’t have access, I am thinking of overseas where it might be a small unit, like where I was there wasn’t a Jewish chaplain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at is this occurred while he was in the service. In order for him to properly observe mourning for your mother would he have had to have done something so that somebody else would have to be aware he was doing this other than Jack simply telling them. Would he have done something in his area where he lived or light a candle or would he have gone to a chaplain or gone in some place and prayed where people could have seen him. What would there have been observed by other people?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. How can I answer that. I wasn’t with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you know what the requirements are of the Jewish faith to properly observe mourning for people.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would some of the things have been that Jack would have had to have done?

Mr. RUBY. Just say the prayer, to read it out of the book or if you know it from memory, by that time after a while you know it from memory.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he could have repeated that to himself?

Mr. RUBY. It is possible. But if a rabbi or services are available that is where you usually go. But if you are at a remote place where it isn’t possible to have services then you can say it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you actually recall Jack telling you that he was going to services for your mother?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; definitely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he tell you that he went?

Mr. RUBY. He just said he was carrying on the services but I don’t remember now. This happened 20 years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at is your not saying that you recall him telling you he went to a chapel or to a synagogue or a temple.

Mr. RUBY. No; all he said was that he said services.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. RUBY. But as to where I didn’t think it was at that time necessary to question him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other examples of this concern with his religious heritage?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I told you about he read all the books or as many books as he could on the Jewish atrocities, whatever you might call them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He did this down in Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. He did this in Dallas that I know, my sister told me. In fact, when I went there he had several books.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind, do you remember the names of the books?

Mr. RUBY. He had one called “Eva” and “Exodus”, and another one there that he was reading, and then he would give them away after he finished. I can’t think of the other one. It was still there while I was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was this that you observed “Eva” and “Exodus”?

Mr. RUBY. Right after the incident I went down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So after the incident he was reading “Eva” and “Exodus”?

Mr. RUBY. No, no; it was before. I saw the books after but he had been reading them before because they were in my sister’s apartment. She had taken everything from his apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is your understanding that he had certain religious type books?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Books on Jews in the apartment that he was living in?

Mr. RUBY. Right; definitely. In fact, he went out of his way as I stated before, to go and listen to lectures at the synagogue on the Jewish problem and the atrocities in Germany, and they showed films, real detailed films on what actually took place and he made it a point to be there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did this occur?

Mr. RUBY. This happened before the incident.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I don’t know. But my brother Sam told me about this just last week that when his mother-in-law, his wife’s mother, was down in Dallas, Jack insisted she come along to see these films and hear the lecture.

You see, as I said, I have to get these, some of these things through a third party because I am in Detroit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure, sure. I want to get them straight as to where you got them so we can follow them out.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall, this is on another subject, that at one time when you were questioned about why Jack and you had a falling out with respect to Earl Products, that you stated that Jack was not spending full time on the business, and that was one of the reasons?

Mr. RUBY. Well, we didn’t think so. This was Sam’s and my opinion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what was happening?

Mr. RUBY. Well, we wanted him to sell our products that we were manufacturing, and he was, seemed to be always getting involved with selling somebody else’s product. Of course, there was a commission involved or whatever it was, but I didn’t—we didn’t approve of it. We wanted to push our products and so, of course, he and Sam had a real runout or whatever you call it and then we finally decided to buy him out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What other products was he selling?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I think he was selling costume jewelry. Well, we don’t manufacture that. We wanted him to devote his entire interest into the company.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would costume jewelry, could it be considered a companion line for anything you were selling. Would he go into the same stores to sell costume jewelry?

Mr. RUBY. You possibly could, you possibly could, but it was our opinion that he should devote all of his time to our products.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s responsibility in Earl Products?

Mr. RUBY. He was actually the sales manager.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have employees working in there?

Mr. RUBY. I was just going to add, he didn’t have any, he was the only one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He managed himself?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; and he was a good salesman, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this——

Mr. RUBY. Anyhow, with leading too we weren’t hitting it off so good, and my sister Eva was asking him to come down to Dallas, so between everything we finally decided to buy him out and he took his money and went down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did his sales activities require him to spend most of his time outside of the place of business?

Mr. RUBY. Of course; oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of your sales were on a mail-order basis and how much was this direct selling that Jack may have been involved in?

Mr. RUBY. Well, at this time, the time he was handling the sales, there was very little mail order. It was mostly accounts that he had secured or we had in one way or another.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What area?

Mr. RUBY. Like Mar-Din.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was in St. Louis, wasn’t it?

Mr. RUBY. No, no; in Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Chicago?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he travel outside the Chicago area?

Mr. RUBY. Not too much; not too much, if I recall. I don’t recall. I don’t think he traveled too much.

I think, now that I think of it, that was one of our problems. We wanted him to go down or go out of town, to Milwaukee or any of the other cities, even close by, and definitely St. Louis where we eventually sold Katz Drug which is a big and good account for us and they turned out to be a pretty fair account. And anyhow as I said one thing led to another. Eva was wanting him in Dallas and he wasn’t getting along too well with us so it was decided to buy him out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The only other topic I want to cover with you now is the circumstances behind you changing your name from Rubenstein to Ruby. Did Mr. Hubert cover that with you?

Mr. RUBY. Sort of. Well, first off, there are two reasons. First of all, we were, I think, very conscious of the Jewish name of Rubenstein, and we had worked for another Jewish fellow who we all looked up to, an elderly fellow who had been very successful in business and his name was Stanley Eisenberg and he said, “When you send out mail orders you shouldn’t use a Jewish name because of the—some people won’t order even if they can use the merchandise,” and anyhow he suggested we use a different name, and so we finally decided since they were calling us Ruby anyhow, with that in mind, and business reasons, that is, and we finally decided to—Sam and I did first, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; and Jack did it down in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time elapsed between when you and Sam changed your name and Jack changed his?

Mr. RUBY. Gee, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever discuss with Jack the reasons for his changing his name?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea why he changed his name?

Mr. RUBY. No; it never came up. We never discussed it as far as I can remember, we just never discussed that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is my understanding correct then that the changing of your name and Sam’s name was directly tied with your activity in connection with Earl Products, and thus since Hyman didn’t have any connection with Earl Products and Jack didn’t have any connection with Earl Products at the time you two changed your name, why there was no reason for those two at that time to change their name?

Mr. RUBY. Well, Hyman never changed his name, as you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I know that.

Mr. RUBY. I really don’t know the reason for Jack. He may have had the same reason but since he did it there, and we never brought it up it just never was brought into our conversations, that I can remember. We may have—at that time it was nothing important to us, and it happened along about 15–16 years ago, I think. I think we changed ours in 1947, I don’t even remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we can finish this off here now. I want to hand you what has been marked as “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby, Exhibit No. 3.” This is a copy of a report which was prepared by two FBI agents, White and Lee of an interview they had with you on November 25 in Chicago, which consists of two pages. The pages are numbered at the bottom 171 and 172. I want to hand it to you and ask you if you had a chance to read that?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any changes or corrections that you think ought to be made in that?

Mr. RUBY. Well, here in the first paragraph it says, “In 1946 his brothers Jack Ruby” I think, I am not sure of the date. I think it was 1947, and Jack didn’t change his name when we did. He changed it later in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let’s read into the record the part you are talking about. In the second paragraph you are talking about the sentence which reads, “He said that in 1946 his brothers Jack Ruby and Sam Ruby along with himself legally changed their names from Rubenstein to Ruby for business purposes.”

Now the correct date of your changing your name is when?

Mr. RUBY. I think it was 1947.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And in any event Jack did not change his name at the same time that you did?

Mr. RUBY. That is correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Take your time and refer to them—you have notes, refer to them.

Mr. RUBY. Down here in the sixth paragraph it says, “following military service Jack returned to Chicago where he resided for several months and was not employed to his, Earl Ruby’s knowledge,” that is not correct.

When Jack came back from the service we immediately took him in as a partner in Earl Products Co., so that is wrong. And then they said about 1946. I think in 1947 he went to Dallas. However, I am not sure of that. You probably have that date.

I see on this next to the last paragraph where it says Earl Ruby stated he could give no reason why Jack Ruby shot Oswald except Jack is highly—is a highly emotional type and may have thought he was doing everyone a great service, I don’t remember that, the exact words. I don’t think I would have made that statement completely. I mean——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some feeling at the time that Jack may have thought he was doing a service to the country?

Mr. RUBY. To tell you the truth, I was so upset that I may have made the statement but I am not sure. You know I was—when was this, this was the next day, right, Monday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. That is it for this one. Some of them are almost exact duplicates.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby Exhibit 4.” And that purports to be an interview that Mr. Robichau and Mr. Wilson of the FBI had with you on November 25 in Southfield, Mich. It consists of six pages and they are numbered consecutively at the bottom 173 to 178.

Have you had a chance to read that over?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you indicate what changes or corrections should be made thereon?

Mr. RUBY. Well, in the fourth paragraph I am not certain as to whether my father was born in Russia and as to whether my mother was born in Poland. I think my older sisters and brothers know more about that than I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the experience of your mother and father in Europe a topic which was discussed very often in the home?

Mr. RUBY. My father’s experiences were, in telling about the hardships of it and the persecutions of the Jews.

I have one other correction here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. In the fifth paragraph it states here that Jack was employed by Earl Products after he first left the service. He wasn’t employed. He was a part owner. It clarifies it in the next sentence, however.

Now, on page 2, the third paragraph this states here that I may have said that A. Weinberg was a fourth removed cousin, but I find that that is not so. She never was a cousin of ours.

And then on page 5 in the first paragraph it states that from 1939 to 1942 I was employed as a carpenter at building the barracks at Great Lakes. The date is incorrect. I worked there from, on in the year of 1942.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take a pen and cross that off and correct it properly and then initial it, initial your deletion there?

Mr. RUBY. In the last sentence on page 6 it states that Earl and his three brothers had their names legally changed from Rubenstein to Ruby during 1947. That is incorrect. It should be Earl and Sam and Earl’s wife, Marge. Shall I change it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; why don’t you?

Why don’t you sign that on the first page then. Sign Exhibit No. 4.

I will give you Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to sign that.

One other thing that occurred to me before we go on here. We have obtained various birth records and so forth, and in trying to identify which record pertains to which child, I noticed that your parents—actually your given names were Hebrew names.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is my understanding correct that your given Hebrew name was Isadore?

Mr. RUBY. No; actually I was, the name listed was, Izzy, on my birth record. Is that what you are referring to?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. Izzy, I-z-z-y, that is me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what the given names of your various sisters are? Could you relate those to us?

Mr. RUBY. No; I couldn’t. Eileen I think was Ida, I think. The others I don’t know. You have to talk to one of the older members of the family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, also in Exhibit No. 3, I noticed that you had, somebody has put some penciled mark numbers, were those your marks and did you wish to comment on those?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, it is just an error there—that should be scrap iron and junk handlers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, it is corrected for the record, you just state it for the record.

Mr. RUBY. Here is a repetition of that other one where it says I stated he was doing every one a great service. I don’t remember saying that and I am just not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Let me hand you what has been marked as Exhibit No. 5 and has been further marked “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby” which purports to be a copy of an interview with you also at South Field, Mich., on November 26, 1963, with special agents Robichau and Wilson.

The exhibit consists of six pages, numbered in sequence 11 through 16. I will hand it to you and ask you if you have any corrections that you want to make in that?

Mr. RUBY. Here again on page 5 it states I worked at the building—the barracks at Great Lakes from 1942. It was only during 1942. Shall I change it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; if you wish.

Do you want to sign Exhibit No. 5?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked for identification as “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby Exhibit No. 6.” This is a copy of an interview which Agent Robichau purports to have had with you on November 27 in Detroit, Mich.

Would you want to look at that and tell us if there are any changes or corrections that you would make?

Mr. RUBY. No; no corrections. Shall I sign it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, fine.

I will hand you what has been marked for identification as “Exhibit No. 7, Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby.” This purports to be a copy of an interview report prepared by Special Agent George Parfet of the FBI. The interview took place with you on November 28 in Chicago. It consists of two pages and it is numbered at the bottom pages 15 and 16.

Would you want to look at that and tell us if there are any changes or corrections that you would care to make?

Mr. RUBY. Here on page 2 it mentioned that I had never heard of Jack being mentally ill or depressed. However, I know he was depressed several years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know that at the time you gave that interview report, gave that interview?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I knew he was depressed but I didn’t understand it completely. I didn’t know that it was called depression at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did it appear, how would you have described it at that time?

Mr. RUBY. Well, that he wouldn’t shave and he wouldn’t bathe, and he wouldn’t go out, but at that time I didn’t know what it was called. But after thinking it over, when he came up to Chicago once, he was terribly depressed, as I stated before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you have described him at the time you saw him— what would you have said was the matter with him?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I was just—let me see what words I can use to describe it—I would have said he was disgusted, not knowing that actually he was depressed until I really learned what the word “depressed” means.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was his attitude one more of hostility or belligerence toward what had happened rather than one of submission?

Mr. RUBY. No; it was one of submission. He wouldn’t go any places as I stated. He didn’t want to wash or clean himself up and I had to more or less force him to get in the shower and things of that sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about the things he said, though. Were these—you used the term “disgust”—did he speak in the manner of someone who was disgusted would speak?

Mr. RUBY. Well, he didn’t even have much to say, if I recall. He didn’t even have much to say. He tried to keep to himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he live at that time?

Mr. RUBY. I mean in my presence. In other words, he would go in another room or sit in a chair and just sit there without making—just thinking to himself about whatever was going through his mind. He was listless.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you married at that time?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, I was married.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack come and live with you?

Mr. RUBY. No, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he live at the time?

Mr. RUBY. He came to the family and that is where I came to see him. In fact, he was so depressed that I took him to try to cheer him up, I had to go to New York for a business trip, a show that was taking place there and I took him for a ride, we were driving anyhow, and I thought it would pep him up a little bit, you know, to go on a trip. But it didn’t help much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your attitude toward him this time one of sympathy or couldn’t you figure out what was eating this guy?

Mr. RUBY. No; I would say he was. I just thought he was disgusted with things, little realizing that he was in a state of depression.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But were you sympathetic toward him at the time?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; as I said, that is why I took him on the trip. I tried to encourage him. I told him “Maybe we can find something for you to get into,” as I mentioned before, “Some business we can get you started in or something.”

However, he decided, as I stated before, to go back to Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you why he decided to go back to Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall, he may have, but I can’t recall just now.

I see another, the last paragraph on page 2. I didn’t even remember that conversation with the agent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read the paragraph?

Mr. RUBY. It states here, “Earl Ruby was specifically asked regarding his residence in New Haven, Conn., in 1940. He has stated that he had never been in New Haven, Conn., in his life and in that period was engaged in the drycleaning business on Cicero Avenue in Chicago.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that statement a correct statement?

Mr. RUBY. When we were selling we used to travel the east coast but I would have only been there—I don’t remember being there, but if I had been there, I would have been there only for a day. I think he asked me if I lived there for any length of time, if I recall, but I am not sure. I don’t recall this——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the drycleaning business on Cicero Avenue at that time?

Mr. RUBY. As far as I know, yes; I had an independent cleaning route at that time. I used to call on friends and pick up their cleaning and deliver it right to their home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t operate a cleaning plant?

Mr. RUBY. No, no; but this is where I worked out of. Maybe he just cut it short. I brought my cleaning to this plant in Chicago, on Cicero Avenue, in Chicago, they cleaned it and charged me a wholesale price and I added on a profit, of course.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as “Exhibit 8, Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby.” It consists of two pages numbered 210 and 211 and purports to be a copy of a report which Agent George Parfet prepared with respect to that interview he had with you on November 28 at South Field, Mich.

Mr. RUBY. I didn’t sign the other one.

(Earl Ruby Exhibits Nos. 5, 6, 7, and 8 were marked for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will state for the record then, you have just signed Exhibit No. 7, and if you will look at Exhibit No. 8, tell us if there are any changes or corrections you would make in that.

Mr. RUBY. Here again it is almost a duplicate of the previous, what do you call it again, number?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Interview report.

Mr. RUBY. What is this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Exhibit No. 8, and this is Exhibit No. 7 that I have here.

Mr. RUBY. The last paragraph again as stated in the previous one. They are almost identical.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; it looks like they are identical copies and they were just included in different places in our materials.

Let me hand it to you then and let me ask you to sign it.

Mr. RUBY. Sign it anyhow?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Exhibit No. 8.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Exhibit No. 8.

I finally hand you what has been marked for identification as “Exhibit No. 9, Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby.” This is a copy of a report which Agent Robichau made with you of an interview he had on December 2, 1963, at Detroit, Mich.