Chapter XLIV: Part 44

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an official capacity with the union, that is, were you an officer?

Mr. WALL. Well, I was an officer as being elected the president of the inter-union. In other words, all the performers, if there was a complaint that some performer had done something wrong and the management said that he was right and the performer said that they were right, then the performers themselves elected a committee of about six that would determine who was right, and this was the committee and I really don’t even know the correct name of the committee. They would judge who was right and wrong and what would be done about it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any official standing on the committee which was to take up Jack Ruby’s problem?

Mr. WALL. I don’t understand what you mean.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you responsible in any official way for the committee which was to consider the problem Jack Ruby had with the guild?

Mr. WALL. My capacity was to make sure that everything was presented correctly and this was the only thing that Jack was after me to do is to make sure his side of the story was heard.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it up to you to make the decision on who was right and who was wrong?

Mr. WALL. It was up to the committee, six members.

Mr. SPECTER. You were one of the members of the committee?

Mr. WALL. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when did Jack Ruby first discuss his problem with you?

Mr. WALL. I would say around 2 weeks before the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. When did he next discuss the problem with you?

Mr. WALL. He called me a couple of times to see if we had had a meeting or not. He would call and I would tell him; no.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that by telephone?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; he would call me at the hotel.

Mr. SPECTER. And how many times did he call you after he first discussed it with you approximately 2 weeks before the assassination?

Mr. WALL. I would say about two times.

Mr. SPECTER. When did he make those telephone calls to you?

Mr. WALL. In the afternoon.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long before the assassination were those calls made?

Mr. WALL. Well, the last one was the Saturday night, midnight the last call came, that was the main reason he was calling me was to find out if we had had a meeting.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he call you once or twice between the first time he talked to you about the guild problem and the time he called you in Galveston?

Mr. WALL. About twice.

Mr. SPECTER. When did those two telephone calls occur, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. WALL. In the afternoon. That was the only time to get me.

Mr. SPECTER. What dates?

Mr. WALL. I can’t recall any dates.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss any thing else in any of those two telephone calls other than the specific problem with the guild?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Had Mr. Ruby called you at Galveston prior to the time he completed the call shortly after your arrival at Galveston on that Saturday night?

Mr. WALL. I’m sorry. Had he——?

Mr. SPECTER. Did he just call you the first time and make that connection with you?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; as far as I know. Otherwise my mother would have said that she received a long distance call.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say your mother——

Mr. WALL. Nonnie. Mrs. McKenna.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. McKenna did not refer to any prior call to you?

Mr. WALL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how Mr. Ruby got your telephone number in Galveston?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. I left my telephone number where I would be in Galveston with the operator in Dallas, which I do every time I go out of town so they will know how to contact me.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your purpose in leaving your telephone number in that manner?

Mr. WALL. Well, I get quite a few calls and the main reason I left it was because Mr. Anderson, who was the manger of the hotel, hadn’t decided what day to come back to work, Monday or Tuesday, therefore, I needed to know so, therefore, I left the telephone number.

Mr. SPECTER. After you completed your telephone conversation with Jack Ruby on that Saturday night, November 23, what did you do next?

Mr. WALL. As far as I can remember I had a sandwich and visited with the folks for about 45 minutes, then went to bed because I was kind of tired.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you awaken on Sunday morning, November 24?

Mr. WALL. I don’t know the precise time. I do know it was about—it couldn’t have been more than 10 minutes before Jack shot Oswald because I had just gotten up and walked in the bedroom and was watching it in the folks’ bedroom, so whatever time Jack shot Oswald I was only up 10 minutes beforehand.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe on the television screen at that time?

Mr. WALL. Nothing at all to relate it was Jack.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know it was Jack at the time you saw the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What part of the man did you see on the television screen?

Mr. WALL. It all happened so quick I didn’t see anything except I understood Jack had been shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Understood who had been shot?

Mr. WALL. I’m sorry, that Oswald had been shot and that—I watched the interview with the policeman saying he knew who it was but could not say publicly who it was. We waited around and, I would say, within a matter of 15 minutes they announced who it was. It seems to me that quick.

Mr. SPECTER. And who did they announce that it was?

Mr. WALL. Jack Ruby, owner of a stripper club called the Carousel.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your reaction, if any, to that?

Mr. WALL. Well, it was a shock. That is all I can say. It was a real shock.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do for the balance of that Sunday afternoon?

Mr. WALL. Well, I would say within 30 minutes to an hour we received a call from the Washington Post representative who, I believe, was in Dallas at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. How did that representative of the Washington Post happen to call you?

Mr. WALL. I have no idea.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what his name was?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to him, if anything?

Mr. WALL. Well, I was still in shock. I told him that I had talked to Jack over the telephone and he asked what we had said and I told him and he said: “Well, can you tell me a little about him?” And I was at that time having an argument with Mr. Peterson on what to do, you know, keep your mouth shut, or, you know, say what you had to say.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Mr. Peterson’s view?

Mr. WALL. He said to keep my mouth shut, he did not want to get involved in any way, and that the right people would come to us and for us not to say anything so——

Mr. SPECTER. What was your view about that subject?

Mr. WALL. Well, I didn’t know. I don’t know. I can’t remember. I would say mine was the same way. I was kind of scared, to be honest.

Mr. SPECTER. Why were you scared?

Mr. WALL. Just when people start calling you long distance you get seared. You don’t want to get involved in anything, particularly if you didn’t have anything to do with it. Then the next telephone call we got was from Dick Hitt, who is a man on the—a columnist for the Dallas Times Herald who knew I was a very close friend.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you known Mr. Hitt before that telephone call?

Mr. WALL. Oh, yes; ever since I have been in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Mr. Hitt say to you?

Mr. WALL. He wanted to know about—he wanted me to talk to his editor or someone about Jack, to find out what kind of a person he was and everything.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to his editor?

Mr. WALL. We did but very coldly. Joe talked to the editor.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to him?

Mr. WALL. I talked to Dick Hitt but whenever they called back the man called back and said: “Dick Hitt said for me to call you.” Joe got on the phone and said: “No, I don’t know anything.” I have a correction to make. The first call that we received was from the Dallas Morning News. The second call we got was from the Washington Post and the last call we got was from Dick Hitt.

Mr. SPECTER. Who called you from the Dallas Morning News?

Mr. WALL. I would say right now as far as I can remember it was Hugh Ainsworth because he also knew I was a very good friend of Jack’s.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of the conversation between you and Mr. Ainsworth?

Mr. WALL. The conversation was that Jack had called me and—Hugh and I were good speaking friends. Not close friends, but we had talked a great deal—of course, this being the first person I had talked to that had also known Jack, we were just in a conversation. I told him: “Yes, I had received a call,” you know, I was sort of outspoken in discussing it with Hugh. Joe got kind of angry and said we should not meddle in any way at all and so the Washington Post called after that and we were sort of cool and when Dick Hitt called we said we knew nothing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive any other telephone calls?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls on that Sunday?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you call?

Mr. WALL. I called Nancy Austin, who is a performer in our show, to find out how to get hold of Phil Burleson.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was Phil Burleson?

Mr. WALL. He was my attorney.

Mr. SPECTER. How long had he been your attorney?

Mr. WALL. Since I arrived in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the purpose of your wanting to get Mr. Burleson’s telephone number?

Mr. WALL. Well, Phil also knew Jack and I wanted to see if he was going to represent Jack or if he could or wanted to or to see if he could get in to see Jack to see what was going on.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you do that?

Mr. WALL. Well, as I say, I was in shock. I was upset because I liked Jack very much. He has been a very good friend of ours even with our ups and downs. Just to make sure everything was all right. To find out what was going on.

Mr. SPECTER. Had anybody requested you to contact an attorney on behalf of Jack Ruby?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That thought came to you on your own initiative?

Mr. WALL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss it with Mr. Peterson?

Mr. WALL. Yes; I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Mr. Peterson say about that telephone call?

Mr. WALL. It was fine with him. The main thing that Joe objected to, he did not want to be in print about saying anything or doing anything that would jeopardize our position at the Adolphus Hotel.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know that Jack Ruby had other attorneys who represented him regularly?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he have any other attorney, to your knowledge?

Mr. WALL. I have never known him to have any attorney at all.

Mr. SPECTER. That is prior to the time of the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any other telephone calls on that Sunday?

Mr. WALL. Well, any other phone calls I would have made would have been to cast members.

Mr. SPECTER. For what purpose?

Mr. WALL. To tell them that we still didn’t know we were going to do the show or anything about it, just be prepared to come in Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, whenever they were notified.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall any other specific calls you made on that Sunday, November 24?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do the balance of the day?

Mr. WALL. Watched television.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to sleep that night?

Mr. WALL. Late. It was very late.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have supper?

Mr. WALL. In the house.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave the house at all that Sunday?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I didn’t go out at all.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arise on the following Monday?

Mr. WALL. I would say Monday night. I really don’t, to be honest with you, I don’t know what time I arrived back. I don’t know if we performed Monday or Tuesday. From all recollection it was Tuesday we performed. I don’t know. It could have been Tuesday afternoon that we got back.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you go back to Dallas?

Mr. WALL. I don’t remember, sir, now what day it was we left.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen Jack Ruby after the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you see him?

Mr. WALL. It was the first Saturday or the second Saturday after the assassination I was in the hotel room watching the football game and it was in the afternoon and Sheriff Bill Decker called me and said that Jack was very depressed and needed some cheering up and wanted to know if I would come down, so I went down.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after Sheriff Decker’s call did you arrive at the jail?

Mr. WALL. I would say between half an hour and 45 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at the jail?

Mr. WALL. I would say about 20 minutes, maybe.

Mr. SPECTER. State as specifically as you can recollect the nature of your conversation with Jack Ruby indicating what he said to you and what you said to him?

Mr. WALL. Well, I wasn’t the only person there. There were two other people there, one man I don’t know—I have seen him around before. The other man was, I’m sure you have it in your records, he was the partner of Jack in the club who tried to run it after Jack had shot Oswald. I can’t think of the man’s name.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the first name of either of those men?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I don’t. I know them by face.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anyone else present besides the four of you?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; except for the two policemen that were inside the tank where Jack was. He was inside the tank.

Mr. SPECTER. What conversation ensued while you were present with Mr. Ruby?

Mr. WALL. Well, the main thing Jack brought out was he thought himself correct in shooting Oswald.

Mr. SPECTER. For what reason?

Mr. WALL. A far as I can remember he didn’t give a reason. He just said, you know. “I was right in doing it.”

Mr. SPECTER. Did any one disagree with him?

Mr. WALL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Why not?

Mr. WALL. Well, they just didn’t say anything against him. I can’t remember the incident too well. I do know that Jack was very upset and the two men, on the outside, didn’t argue with him at all in anything that he said, and they said they wouldn’t. I remember them making the comment to each other they weren’t going to upset him, and whatever he said they would just nod yes to and would agree with; they weren’t going to get him upset.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to Jack, if anything?

Mr. WALL. I talked to him about Phil.

Mr. SPECTER. Phil who?

Mr. WALL. Burleson. “I was wondering if Phil came up to see you,” and, “I asked him to come up,” and “If you can get him to represent you as one of the attorneys,” and everything. “I think it would be very good for you since he was at one time the assistant district attorney.” I said, “I think he would do a good job for you. He is very honest, very aboveboard,” and Jack said, “Yes, he came to see me and I think he would do well and I would like to use him if I can.” Then I asked him how they were treating him in jail and he said how nice they were to him and he asked me what I was doing. I told him I was watching the football game and Sheriff Decker said I could come down and see him. Then he asked me specifically did I want to get involved in the case in any way, or something like that, and I told him under the circumstances please don’t ever use our name or anything. It’s not that I didn’t like him. It was just that it might ruin our careers that we worked very hard for. He gave me his word he would never use us, say anything about us in any publication or anything. This was very true. While we were in Houston he needed money and wrote an article for a series of newspapers and he stated in the article, toward the end he made a call to Joe Feder and Beck Wald, which I thought was very nice of him and all the other circumstances in the article that I could see he used the names of the people.

Mr. SPECTER. Joe Feder was really Joe Peterson?

Mr. WALL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And Beck Wald was really you?

Mr. WALL. Me; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect anything more about the conversation that you had at the jail on the Saturday you refer to?

Mr. WALL. No, sir. It was the first time I had seen him since the assassination and it was just, you know, kind of strange meeting. There wasn’t any fun in it at all, you know, like laughs. Sheriff Decker told me he wanted to be cheered up. It was not like that at all. It was a very sad thing.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever seen Jack Ruby since?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I have gotten a few letters from Jack.

Mr. SPECTER. How many?

Mr. WALL. I would say about three.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did he write to you?

Mr. WALL. From the jail.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you received those letters?

Mr. WALL. In—I think I received two in Dallas and I would say one in Houston, and they were very simple letters, just how he was feeling and, you know, what he was doing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you respond?

Mr. WALL. Yes; I wrote him back and told him what we were doing and how we were doing and I hoped he was well.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times did you write to him?

Mr. WALL. Maybe three or four times. I don’t know. I do remember another thing we discussed while he was in the jail. He said he was writing—I remember two things—he was writing down his memoirs and wanted to do it into a story form and would I be interested in doing it for him. I told him I would see. And the other thing he mentioned to me is he had received a lot of telegrams and letters from all over the country saying he was correct in doing what he did, or he was wrong in doing what he did, or whatever it was. He was getting so many in he had no way of writing them back. He wanted to thank each and every one for writing to him and wanted to know if I would correspond with them on behalf of him and that is when I said, “I would rather not get involved in any way and you can understand why.” And he said, “Yes, I do.”

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any other contacts at all with Jack Ruby after November 24, 1963?

Mr. WALL. Only through corresponding letters.

Mr. SPECTER. You have now mentioned all of the contacts you have had with him?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Going back to November 21——

Mr. WALL. I have one. I’m sorry. I do have one. As I said, Phil Burleson is Joe’s and my attorney and, therefore, I would go see Phil every once in awhile just to give Jack a message of hello, that we are thinking of him, and to see how he was. We were all right and everything. I did ask Phil to do this for me. Every once in awhile I would do it.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now related all of the contacts you have had with Ruby since November 24, 1963?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Going back to November 21, the day before the assassination in 1963, did you have occasion to talk by telephone to Tom McKenna on that day?

Mr. WALL. The day before?

Mr. SPECTER. The assassination?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; not at all unless it was about football. I am a football fanatic. It was the day before. This would be Thursday, right?

Mr. SPECTER. Would it refresh your recollection if I said you had a telephone call with him at about 6:50 on that day?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; it wouldn’t because I call him quite frequently. I just made a telephone call to him day before yesterday. Unless it was just to say hello and everything. We did not decide to go down to Galveston until that afternoon, the day after the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you known Edward Parker of Fort Worth?

Mr. WALL. Eddie Parker is—came to work for us for Bottoms Up at the Adolphus and he would help in costume changes and setting up the props. We had a portable stage which he would set up and get everything ready before the show would start. That would be about a year and a half, but we performed at the Playbill Club, we performed a show which he also helped us in, called Razzmataz was the name of the show.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall telephoning him on October 1st, 3d, and 4th, 1963?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I would call him in any respect to the show. The only reason I would have anything to do with him would be to tell him whether we would do a television show, needed him there and needed Carl Tressler, who was in our show. They are roommates. Anytime I would call them would be in reference to the show.

Mr. SPECTER. You already mentioned you called him on November 22.

Mr. WALL. To tell him probably that the show had been canceled.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was that call made, if you recall?

Mr. WALL. Well, it would probably be around, I would say, 1 or 2 o’clock. As soon as Mr. Anderson told us we would not perform that night or Saturday.

Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been as late as 6 that evening?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; it could have been as I was going out of town to tell him I was leaving and would be in Galveston; if they needed to get hold of me to call the operator.

Mr. SPECTER. But you didn’t go to Galveston on Friday, November 22, did you?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; that was just to tell him we were not going to do a show that night.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Patricia Farmer?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Clarence Vought?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What relatives, if any, does Tom McKenna have in Dallas?

Mr. WALL. The only one that would be there would be his son who is 18 years old, George McKenna, who was working on a construction job at the Republic National Bank.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know R. D. Matthews?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew anybody by the name of R. D. Matthews?

Mr. WALL. Only if that was the man I couldn’t think of in the previous statement. I said I knew their faces but not their names, but the name doesn’t ring a bell at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Jack Ruby’s trip to Cuba?

Mr. WALL. I have never heard of anything like that at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anybody by the name of Henry Atcheson, A-t-c-h-e-s-o-n, or Henry Acteson, A-c-t-e-s-o-n?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone call from the Adolphus Hotel to anyone in Canada during March of 1964?

Mr. WALL. I can’t remember ever calling Canada. As I stated before to you the only one that I ever knew in Canada was Kay Sutton, who was a performer in our show who was somewhere in Canada.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know James F. Mahon?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; he is my attorney, too.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a call to him on November 23, that is Saturday after the assassination?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; possibly.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that call, if I may ask?

Mr. WALL. Well, to find out, possibly, if he knew anything about Jack; to see if he was going to represent Jack or anything. He also knew Jack Ruby.

Mr. SPECTER. This was the day before the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. WALL. Well, it could be any business thing. Phil handled most of our things but as things stand right now Jim Mahon handles everything for us, our bookkeeping and everything, so it could have been anything at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any other calls on November 23, 1963, if you can remember?

Mr. WALL. The 23d was——

Mr. SPECTER. That is Saturday.

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; I could have called any number of people.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a call to RI 8-1434?

Mr. WALL. That number—that could have been Jim Mahon.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Jim Mahon’s number Riverside 8-4361 or do you recall?

Mr. WALL. No; that is his number. I do know—Riverside, 1434, I don’t know, sir. I’m sure I placed quite a few calls that day. I talked to a lot of people.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have a financial interest with Jack Ruby in the Sovereign Club?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; not as far as putting in our own money at all; only that we would retain a percentage of the club.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by “retain a percentage of the club”?

Mr. WALL. For doing our shows there because we only received a small salary, as I said, $125 a week. He said he would give us a portion of the club.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you mean a percentage of the gross receipts or a percentage of the net receipts?

Mr. WALL. I mean a percent of the club, period.

Mr. SPECTER. Half ownership in the club?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that ever formalized into a written contract?

Mr. WALL. As far as I know it was, sir, but I don’t remember where the papers are. I think they were destroyed in the fire at the Playbill Club.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever get such an interest in the Sovereign Club?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation or any other other Federal agency regarding your connection with Jack Ruby?

Mr. WALL. I have never been called into an office and interviewed at all. Possibly there were some men who came by and asked me a few questions but I can’t remember it. It was that vague. I do know Joe Peterson was interviewed by some representatives of the FBI.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think you may have been interviewed by the FBI, but you are not sure?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever tell the FBI anything about Ruby’s telephone call on the night of November 23 to you in Galveston?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; if they interviewed me I definitely told them about it because it was very important.

Mr. SPECTER. But you are just not sure whether or not they interviewed you?

Mr. WALL. I will tell you, things happened so fast. I definitely remember Joe came back and said, “Two representatives want to talk to you,” but I don’t remember ever talking to them.

Mr. SPECTER. You don’t have any specific recollection of ever talking to them or telling them about that telephone call from Jack Ruby on Saturday, November 23?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Wall, did you and I have a brief interview before this deposition started today?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And during the course of that interview did I ask you the outline of the questions which we have covered here on the record?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And were your answers the same as you told me here this afternoon?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful in any way to the President’s Commission?

Mr. WALL. Well, the only thing that I stated to you before is that previously I said that Jack and Joe got into a fight when he blew his stack but then on the other hand there was a time when we needed $300 very desperately and Jack in a matter of 10 minutes went over and got a loan on his own car for us so that the man does have feelings and he can flare up in 5 minutes and then forget about it, you know. I can’t, but he is one type of person who can. You never know what he is going to do next.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Ralph Paul?

Mr. WALL. That was the name of the gentleman who was visiting Jack at the same time I was that I could not remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that time in the jail have you ever talked to Ralph Paul?

Mr. WALL. Very, very little. Jack at one time has taken Joe and I to a bowling alley—I remember Ralph Paul was along—and took us for breakfast. We bowled a game but I still didn’t say seven or eight words to the man. I was very friendly but I still didn’t say anything to him.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any effort to telephone Ralph Paul anytime on November 22 or 23?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Or November 24?

Mr. WALL. No, sir. I wouldn’t even know how to get ahold of the man.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Wall, if you wish, we can make available the typed-up copy of this deposition for you to read and sign, or if you are willing, you can waive that signature which means that you will not read and sign the transcript. Do you have any preference on the subject?

Mr. WALL. I will do whatever is the easiest, for you all and the best way.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing then to waive your reading and signature?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. We appreciate that. We will then accept your waiver. It may or may not be made available for you to read and sign. Thank you very much for your appearing here today.

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH ALEXANDER PETERSON

The testimony of Joseph Alexander Peterson was taken at 3:45 p.m., on August 5, 1964, at the U.S. Post Office Building, 301 Stewart Street, Las Vegas, Nev., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show present at this time is Mr. Joseph Peterson. Mr. Peterson, the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy has asked you to appear so that we may take your deposition concerning any knowledge you have of Mr. Jack Ruby, his activities during the period around the assassination of President Kennedy, and any of his associates. With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you stand up and raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this proceeding before the President’s Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PETERSON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name?

Mr. PETERSON. Joseph Alexander Peterson.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been known by any other name?

Mr. PETERSON. Joseph Jablonka.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the name under which you were born, sir?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You say that has been legally changed?

Mr. PETERSON. Legally changed. My stepfather’s name is Walter Peterson.

Mr. SPECTER. When was your name changed from Jablonka to Peterson?

Mr. PETERSON. November 1965. I remember that well because that was when I was married.

Mr. SPECTER. November of what?

Mr. PETERSON. 19—excuse me, 1946.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your birthday?

Mr. PETERSON. February 14, 1924.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?

Mr. PETERSON. Brooklyn, NY.

Mr. SPECTER. Where have you lived since the time you were born?

Mr. PETERSON. Let’s see, now. I have lived in Flatbush, Rogers Avenue, 649 Rogers Avenue, and——

Mr. SPECTER. Until when?

Mr. PETERSON. Wait a minute. Before that, 280 19th Street, Brooklyn, N.Y.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Brooklyn altogether?

Mr. PETERSON. The family; all our lives. Me, I went in the service, came out, went to Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you live in Brooklyn until you went into the service?

Mr. PETERSON. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you go into the service?

Mr. PETERSON. 1941.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you in the service?

Mr. PETERSON. 1945.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live after leaving the service?

Mr. PETERSON. 1946 I went to—back home.

Mr. SPECTER. Brooklyn?

Mr. PETERSON. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Brooklyn after 1946?

Mr. PETERSON. Let’s see. I guess a period about up until 1950.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live after 1950?

Mr. PETERSON. New Orleans.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in New Orleans?

Mr. PETERSON. Three years.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live after that?

Mr. PETERSON. Jacksonville, Fla. No; wait a minute. I didn’t go to Jacksonville, Fla. I visited Jacksonville, went to New Orleans, then from New Orleans, Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. When?

Mr. PETERSON. 1950, 1951, 1952.

Mr. SPECTER. Let’s go back to 1950. You were living in Brooklyn at that time?

Mr. PETERSON. Just before that.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go then in 1950?

Mr. PETERSON. To New Orleans. Now, approximately—probably it was the end of 1950 because 1951 was so close.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in New Orleans?

Mr. PETERSON. Two and a half to three years, and then I went to Dallas, Tex. I lived there ever since.

Mr. SPECTER. In what year did you move to Dallas?

Mr. PETERSON. About the end of 1953 or 1954.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live thereafter in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. PETERSON. Up to now. I went to—let’s see, now. I went to Houston with the show last February. Up until last February I was in Dallas, Tex. I was in the show in Houston, February, March, April, May, June-January, February, March, then came here.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation at the present time?

Mr. PETERSON. Producer.

Mr. SPECTER. Of what?

Mr. PETERSON. Coproducer of musical shows with Breck Wall.

Mr. SPECTER. Where are you employed right now?

Mr. PETERSON. Castaways Casino.

Mr. SPECTER. Here in Las Vegas?

Mr. PETERSON. Right. In Las Vegas.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been in show business?

Mr. PETERSON. Since about 1959.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you known Mr. Breck Wall?

Mr. PETERSON. Since 1959.

Mr. SPECTER. How long, if at all, did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. PETERSON. I knew Jack Ruby—let me think, now. Probably it was the last part of 1961 and we did one show there at his club. I believe it was 1961. I’m trying to figure. We went back to the Adolphus in 1962. It was probably in 1961.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say “one show,” what do you mean by that?

Mr. PETERSON. Did a musical revue called Sticks and Stones there.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did that last?

Mr. PETERSON. Lasted about 2 or 3 months, I guess. We had problems.

Mr. SPECTER. What problems did you have?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, a lot of disagreements. At the time Jack was changing the club from a—he was reopening it. It was called the Sovereign. He was making it into a private club. He wanted to do something different. We were successful across the street with our revue. He talked to us about putting the show up there, going 50-50 on a business basis with the club which we never received anything about.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever enter into an agreement with Jack Ruby wherein you were to have a 50-50 interest in it?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; this was written up with Vic Victorson, his attorney.

Mr. SPECTER. Victorson?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; Victor Victorson.

Mr. SPECTER. How do you spell that?

Mr. PETERSON. Victorson.

Mr. SPECTER. V-i-c-t-o-r-s-o-n?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; the agreement was with him. It never held up though. We got nothing.

Mr. SPECTER. You never received any interest in the club?

Mr. PETERSON. Not a thing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever endeavor to enforce that agreement?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; the only thing we ever got out of it was through a loan. I think Breck borrowed $300 to go to New York on a business trip. That is all the money we received out of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever try to make Jack Ruby live up to the agreement in any other way?

Mr. PETERSON. There was no use. Jack Ruby, in spite of our disagreements, he was kind of good natured in a way. The best thing to do was to bow out quietly.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you first meet Jack Ruby in approximately September 1961, when you played “Sticks and Stones”?

Mr. PETERSON. About that time; a little before that he came up to visit us at the club.

Mr. SPECTER. When was that?

Mr. PETERSON. September of 1960. Sometime around in there. He came up like a lot of club owners do. I think when we reopened the club he came up and visited us. We were introduced to him as Jack Ruby. That was all.

Mr. SPECTER. After you terminated your business relationship with him when the show “Sticks and Stones” ended, how frequently, if at all, did you see him thereafter?

Mr. PETERSON. He came and visited us quite a lot at the Century Room. He would come in when he had guests, big-shot type of thing, wanted to be recognized. He was very nice.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a cordial relationship notwithstanding your prior difficulties?

Mr. PETERSON. Right; right. Like I say, it was best to keep everything on a hello-goodbye basis.

Mr. SPECTER. How frequently did you see him after 1962?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, normally, like bump into him. It was only across the street. We were living at the Adolphus. Back and forth. It’s hard to tell how many times.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have any more business dealings with him?

Mr. PETERSON. No; once we went into bankruptcy, Breck and I, and like when all friendship failed we went to Jack Ruby and he came through. He was real fine. Loaned us money. We paid him back.

Mr. SPECTER. How much money did he loan you?

Mr. PETERSON. It wasn’t exactly a loan. It was a thing, holding on costumes we had for the show. It was $400.

Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge did Jack Ruby have any association with any of the criminal elements?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, if you want to go by hearsay, yes; but actually I don’t know of any. In fact he was in thicker with the police in Dallas than anybody else I knew of because they were always in his place.

Mr. SPECTER. What hearsay are you referring to?

Mr. PETERSON. I am talking about any hearsay. Because of his character automatically people would take him as a thug.

Mr. SPECTER. What aspect of his character would cause people to do that?

Mr. PETERSON. Outward appearance.

Mr. SPECTER. Anything besides outward appearance?

Mr. PETERSON. No; Jack, in spite of our differences, he was a nice, a good man.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see him associate with any of the criminal element personally?

Mr. PETERSON. No; no.

Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge was Jack Ruby a member of any organization which advocated the forceful overthrow of the U.S. Government?

Mr. PETERSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge was any member of his family a member of any such organization?

Mr. PETERSON. I know nothing about his family except I had met his sister.

Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge were any of his friends or associates members of any subversive organization?

Mr. PETERSON. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you see Jack Ruby most recently prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. PETERSON. I guess it was before we went to Galveston. Sometime before then. I couldn’t peg it down. I’m sure we saw him. Like I say, we saw him on the street there. Next thing was the call and that was it.

Mr. SPECTER. You don’t recall seeing him specifically on any special date prior to the day of the assassination?

Mr. PETERSON. No; I don’t.

Mr. SPECTER. But you do think, in a general way, you must have seen him because he was in the area?

Mr. PETERSON. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the day of the assassination?

Mr. PETERSON. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me as specifically as you can recollect what you did on that day?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, there was going to be the parade. We went down and stood on the marquee of the Adolphus Hotel. We were there with some newspaper people we knew and everybody at the hotel. The President passed by. We came back in the lobby. Next thing we knew we heard on the television he had been shot. That was it.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next; if anything?

Mr. PETERSON. As well as I can remember either we called or went upstairs, told the rest of the kids in the cast, those that weren’t out. Just astonishment. Everybody was in the lobby just moving around.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave the hotel on that day?

Mr. PETERSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to sleep that night, if you recall?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, that night we didn’t have a show. I don’t believe we had a show. No; we didn’t have a show that night. They canceled it for three nights. That is when we went to Galveston.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you go to Galveston specifically?

Mr. PETERSON. Let me think. When was the 22d? What day was that?

Mr. SPECTER. The 22d was a Friday.

Mr. PETERSON. It was that night.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you go to Galveston Friday or Saturday?

Mr. PETERSON. I’m not sure whether it was Friday or Saturday because they canceled the show. I think it might have been the next day. I don’t know. I could not be sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect what you did next day before you went to Galveston; if in fact it was that day you went to Galveston?

Mr. PETERSON. The next day before we went to Galveston?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; you have told me—let’s go back to Friday. You told me you stayed around the hotel the balance of that day.

Mr. PETERSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Then you say you went to Galveston either Friday or Saturday?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me, to the best of your recollection, everything that you did before you went to Galveston from the time of the assassination on.

Mr. PETERSON. Well, we stayed at the hotel, found out if they were going to have a show; that is why I think it was Friday now, asking Andy Anderson. I think we picked up and left that night.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls that day?

Mr. PETERSON. Breck might have called his mother in Galveston. I don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. What are the names of the people you refer to as his mother and father?

Mr. PETERSON. Mr. and Mrs. Tom McKenna.

Mr. SPECTER. They are not his real parents though?

Mr. PETERSON. No; they raised him.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a phone call to Emerson 1-4534 on the day of the assassination?

Mr. PETERSON. Emerson 1-4534. Who was it? I don’t remember the number.

Mr. SPECTER. I am not able to give that to you, Mr. Peterson.

Mr. PETERSON. Well, then I can’t remember that.

Mr. SPECTER. How about Riverside 2-6811?

Mr. PETERSON. Riverside 2-6811? I don’t know that number either.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall any telephone calls which you made on November 22 or 23?

Mr. PETERSON. No; like I say, the only calls I probably made were around the hotel.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at Galveston; to the best of your recollection?

Mr. PETERSON. If we left Friday it takes 4 hours. We probably left about, maybe 5, 6. Got there about 11 or 12.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after arriving in Galveston?

Mr. PETERSON. Made ourselves at home like we always do.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was there when you arrived?

Mr. PETERSON. Mr. and Mrs. McKenna; the family.

Mr. SPECTER. Anybody besides Mr. and Mrs. McKenna?

Mr. PETERSON. No; I don’t think so. I don’t remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls from Galveston?

Mr. PETERSON. I don’t think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Wall make any telephone calls?

Mr. PETERSON. Somebody called us, newspaper people, I think, out of Washington, some magazine wanted to know some stuff, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. What magazine was that?

Mr. PETERSON. I have no idea. Some newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall specifically the name of the man who called you?

Mr. PETERSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to him?

Mr. PETERSON. I think I did. Yes; I did talk to him. That is why I remember. I’m trying to think.

Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your recollection tell me specifically what you said to him and what he said to you?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, just wanted to know—let me see. Was it there or was it at the hotel? They wanted a—Time, I think it was Time, or Life, because the man in Life is located in Dallas. He just wanted to know if we had any pictures with Jack Ruby or anything we had done for a story. I told him we did not have anything. Didn’t bother with it.

Mr. SPECTER. While you were in Galveston did you receive any other telephone calls?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; I’m trying to think. Somebody from some newspaper; I believe it was in Washington. Some magazine or some newspaper. Breck probably will remember better than I do. He has a better memory. They wanted some information on Jack Ruby. I couldn’t give them any.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that call, did Breck Wall receive any telephone call while you were in Galveston?

Mr. PETERSON. I think he did.

Mr. SPECTER. From whom?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, the only one was from Jack Ruby.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me about that call?

Mr. PETERSON. Jack was very upset about——

Mr. SPECTER. When did it come in?

Mr. PETERSON. It was in the evening some time.

Mr. SPECTER. What day?

Mr. PETERSON. On the day before.

Mr. SPECTER. Before what?

Mr. PETERSON. Assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. Before the assassination or before the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. PETERSON. Before the shooting of Oswald. I’m getting them both mixed up. It was the day before Oswald’s assassination, or murder, whatever you want to call it. Jack called and was very upset about the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Ruby on that?

Mr. PETERSON. I don’t think I did. I think Breck did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Breck Wall relate to you what that conversation was about?

Mr. PETERSON. The call would have been Saturday. We went down there Friday. That is when it was.

Mr. SPECTER. What was that telephone conversation between Jack Ruby and Breck Wall all about?

Mr. PETERSON. What I just told you. Breck kind of soothed him a little bit. Nothing you could do. All this baloney. Well, it happened, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Ruby said anything about intending to do anything?

Mr. PETERSON. No; not to my knowledge. He didn’t relate that to me. Just he was very upset. Very sick; crying and all of that. That was it.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other subject discussed between Ruby and Breck Wall?

Mr. PETERSON. No; Jack was very close to us. He made himself close to us, you know. We were always in the headlines. Always in the newspapers. We were very good friends with a lot of people in Dallas. He kind of tried to keep up with us, you know, close. Anytime he had any problems or things like that he always came to talk to us about it, or ideas for the club. He came to bug us about that, you know. We were more or less successful in Dallas. Like I say; the best thing to do was just be nice and kind of stay away as much as possible.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other telephone calls which you made or which you received while you were in Galveston?

Mr. PETERSON. Not—I can’t remember right now. I just don’t remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other telephone calls which Breck Wall made or received while the two of you were in Galveston?

Mr. PETERSON. He probably talked to Tony Zoppi.

Mr. SPECTER. Zoppi?

Mr. PETERSON. Zoppi; he is the amusement critic on the Dallas Morning News. We are very close friends. He probably talked to him about that.

Mr. SPECTER. You don’t recall specifically? You presume that might have have happened?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other calls you know about while you were in Galveston?

Mr. PETERSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you go back to Dallas?

Mr. PETERSON. Probably Tuesday. I think we went back Tuesday. We had a show Tuesday. Ordinarily do. The show is closed for the weekend. It was Tuesday when we went back; I’m pretty sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to Jack Ruby after the day of the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. PETERSON. No; I got a little, letters from him, note when he was in jail.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you receive that note?

Mr. PETERSON. It was a few days after the FBI questioned us. He wrote me a little thank you note because I spoke up for him. Like I am telling you, he was all right in spite of him being no good, too.

Mr. SPECTER. When did the FBI question you?

Mr. PETERSON. When we were in Dallas. When we were working at the hotel.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the approximate date when they talked to you?

Mr. PETERSON. Possibly a week, 2 weeks after the Oswald——

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you then?

Mr. PETERSON. Living at the hotel.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the interview with the Federal Bureau of Investigation conducted at your hotel?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; it was at the hotel.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at that time?

Mr. PETERSON. I think it was Mr.—who is the head of the FBI in Dallas? He was the one. Griffin. Griffith. I believe it was Griffith.

Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody with him?

Mr. PETERSON. There was somebody else sitting at the table. I’m not sure who it was. Tony Zoppi; I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Zoppi was present at the time of the interview?

Mr. PETERSON. I believe; he was either there before, after. Tony always has breakfast there. We were all sitting at the table. Mr. Griffith came over.

Mr. SPECTER. The special agent in charge there is Gordon Shanklin.

Mr. PETERSON. This was Mr. Griffith.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Shanklin present?

Mr. PETERSON. I don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Wall present at the time Mr. Griffith talked to you?

Mr. PETERSON. I don’t know; he might have been. Seems to me three people were at the table. I’m trying to recollect. Breck might have been there. We eat breakfast together there usually. It was either breakfast or lunch. I’m never sure which it is because we always get up around 11 or 12.

Mr. SPECTER. When Mr. Griffith or Griffin interviewed you, did you tell him about the telephone call that Jack Ruby made to Breck Wall?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; we told him all that. In fact this is a little clearer than that. Everything is a little fresher in my mind.