Chapter XXXIV: Part 34

Mrs. GRANT. No; but I mean since then—I looked at it—I’ll be honest about it, I didn’t comprehend it.

Mr. BURLESON. Okay.

Mrs. GRANT. You see, I didn’t comprehend it.

Mr. BURLESON. Tell us what else he said.

Mrs. GRANT. Well, Jack said something about John Newman, the fellow that takes the ads there and he says, “You know, Jack, I have to take orders from my superiors,” and Jack, whether he told me that night or later on in the afternoon— he said, “What are you—so money hungry? That you have to take $1,500 for an ad?” Jack knew a full page cost approximately that—I mean, he is well aware of that.

Mr. BURLESON. Let me bring you forward a little bit on these occasions that you told the FBI about in these statements where Jack spent this time with you at your house—would you watch television during this period of time or some of the time?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, he didn’t. I had watched it a great deal that afternoon on a Friday, and he came over—it seems to me when he left the News he came over and came back later on with a lot of groceries and by that time either I saw Curry or somebody else on the television and he was saying, “We got the right man.”

Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack see that?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know—I really don’t know. I tell you—usually under those pills, I thought I heard it plenty that day, and we got sick when we were talking about that.

Mr. BURLESON. Did you and Jack talk about Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. GRANT. He had made very few remarks— he says, “He’s a creep.” You see, “a creep” is a real low life to Jack and “what a creep he is,” he says, and he was sick—he went in the bathroom.

Mr. BURLESON. Did he actually vomit?

Mrs. GRANT. He did not—he was sick to his stomach and he cried, he looked terrible—he just wasn’t himself, and truthfully, so help me, I remember even my mother’s funeral—it just killed him. He said this, “Someone tore my heart out,” and he says, “I didn’t even feel so bad when pops died because pappa was an old man. He was close to 90.”

Mr. BURLESON. What did Jack have to say about President Kennedy?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, all I know is that it just killed him. I’ll tell you the truth—he sat there like it wasn’t worth life—like he thought they were out to get the world, the whole world, and this was part of it.

Mr. BURLESON. All right. He was very respectful of President Kennedy as a man and as a President?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, he admired him—he thought this man was a great man of courage. If I said anything like I said there—something about his brother and integration, he said, “This man is greater, than Lincoln”—the same night.

Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack ever have an occasion to say anything to you about a letter that was in the newspaper that was written by some man, purportedly to President Kennedy’s daughter, Caroline?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know about that, but the week—the same week of the assassination—I think it was Monday or Tuesday—it was that week, there was a picture of the President sitting behind the desk just like you are and John-John was sitting at the front and you could see him playing around, I think it was his father’s feet, and he called it his house—I think, let me put it this way: My brother says, “This kid don’t know his father is the President and the father don’t act like a President.” He meant that he was just like a good guy—like acting ordinarily, like he wasn’t of wealth or power—he was just like the average young man and Jack looked at him as even being much younger than he was.

Mr. BURLESON. But you don’t know anything about such a letter being in the paper that Jack saw?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know—if he did, I don’t know it. I’ll tell you, I don’t know about that picture—it was the first week that I was home.

Mr. BURLESON. On Saturday, the times that Jack was in your house, do you recall if he watched any television?

Mrs. GRANT. No—very little. Saturday he came in with three pictures, and at the left hand corner, they were postal card pictures and he told me what he did. He went home and he couldn’t sleep—he got Larry out of bed and George Senator, and I thought he was nuts, I’ll be honest with you about it, so help me.

Mr. HUBERT. Who?

Mrs. GRANT. I thought my brother Jack was plain nuts.

Mr. BURLESON. Is that when he went out in the middle of the morning and took the pictures?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right; and he didn’t know exactly where he saw it—that was the worst part of it and Larry told me that later on when they found him, he came back to it and they drove around and waited for daylight and he showed Larry how to take the pictures.

Mr. BURLESON. You are talking about the “Impeach Earl Warren” sign?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—all of this got in Jack’s mind that some Communist—no, no—he didn’t use the word “Communist”. I think he said “Some outfit or some lousy guy,” or something was putting up signs like that.

Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack tell you what he was going to do with this picture?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. What?

Mrs. GRANT. First, he showed it to me—three little pictures.

Mr. BURLESON. You actually saw the pictures?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes—I saw them—they are postal cards—laying out on my white table. They were this big (indicating).

Mr. BURLESON. These are pictures of “Impeach Earl Warren” signs?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and they looked like the American flag.

Mr. BURLESON. And it was on this Polaroid film?

Mrs. GRANT. The camera is still at my house, so that’s the same camera, I’m sure.

Mr. BURLESON. All right.

Mrs. GRANT. It was like a postal card picture. It seems to me in the left hand corner was that, and at the bottom it said, “Belmont—Impeach Earl Warren,” and a box number and it said, “Belmont, Massachusetts.”

Mr. BURLESON. What did Jack tell you as he showed you those pictures?

Mrs. GRANT. He called Stanley because he had a lot of faith in him.

Mr. BURLESON. Stanley who?

Mrs. GRANT. Stanley Kaufman; an attorney. This is another wonderful American, and he said, “Stanley,” and he told him about the pictures and then he talked to me, he says, “You know what, I went down to the post office and the newspaper box—the post office box——”

Mr. BURLESON. The newspaper box of Bernard Weissman’s ad?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes—“It’s so stuffed with mail,” he said to the clerk, and you can find out now which clerk this is, and on the 23d he was there at 6 or 7 o’clock in the morning and Larry and Senator should know the time—I really don’t know that—but it seems to me that’s what he said.

First of all, he figured that a gentile is using that name to blame all this on a Jew—about that ad, and then he analyzed the ad on Saturday and he saw the black border.

Mr. BURLESON. Will you tell me what Jack said he was going to do with these pictures?

Mrs. GRANT. He talked to Stanley and he was going to take them to the FBI—Monday, the first thing.

Mr. BURLESON. Was he also going to take them to Mr. Gordon McLendon who was the operator of KLIF?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he said he was going up there that night. Whether he did or was there or not, I don’t know.

Mr. BURLESON. Did he mention at that time—did he mention Mr. McLendon’s name, that Mr. McLendon does these editorials on radio station KLIF?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes—he was very close to Gordon.

Mr. BURLESON. All right.

Mrs. GRANT. In fact, I think he called Gordon from my house. He was there—and on Saturday he spent a long time with me and he called many people.

Mr. BURLESON. And he was quite upset over these pictures and signs?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, let’s come forward to where we were talking about this Al Gruber.

Mrs. GRANT. Yes—Al.

Mr. BURLESON. Or it’s possibly Alex Gruber.

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; it’s Al Gruber—his nickname is Musty.

Mr. BURLESON. And there was something about a dog?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, is this the dog that Jack was having someone build a crate for?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right; or buy a crate or something.

Mr. BURLESON. And that he could ship this dog to Al Gruber in a crate?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me when Al was here when I was in the hospital, Jack had promised him a certain dog, I don’t know which one it is, and not a dog, but a certain dog, because Jack had a lot of dogs. His dogs just had puppies, I think, in the last month and Al had talked to—Jack had talked to Andy Armstrong—Andrew—and said something about getting a crate and Al wanted this dog.

Mr. BURLESON. Now bringing you forward a little bit to this episode that you and Jack had the trouble over that ended up in going to Rabbi Silverman and that you touched upon?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, he went to Rabbi Silverman because we weren’t talking for about 2 weeks. This was previous to the operation.

Mr. BURLESON. All right; and did Rabbi Silverman talk to you?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. Had Jack complained to him that he couldn’t get along with you or something?

Mrs. GRANT. Well. I don’t know exactly what Jack said—the rabbi, you see, didn’t tell me, but I told the rabbi about this money deal. Of course, I didn’t tell him that I didn’t go to the hospital on all these times that I had made arrangements with the doctors and backed out.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, you were asked some questions concerning Jack’s political beliefs or political leanings or political philosophies or political—anything that had to do with politics, did you ever hear Jack saying anything about being a Democrat or a Republican or being a right wing or left wing—he didn’t get involved in politics?

Mrs. GRANT. Now, this is it—my older brother knew a lot of Democrats and it seemed that we followed in their footsteps, because this is what I heard as a child—that the Democrats are for the poor people, so we as poor people went along with them, but we were never the kind that I was to go out and get votes or boast about a fellow—me and Jack—never.

Mr. BURLESON. You don’t know if Jack worked in any type of political movement?

Mrs. GRANT. Not to my knowledge. My older brother did—he was a Democrat and he worked for Governor Horner.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is the older brother?

Mrs. GRANT. Hyman.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, I think you also told me that Earl Ruby’s wife had a great admiration for President Kennedy also?

Mrs. GRANT. Truthfully, Earl couldn’t get out of her sight unless she OK’d it, but she was such a great admirer, and you know how much time he spent down here and money and Earl said she never said a word—she just loved him.

Mr. BURLESON. You mean loved the President?

Mrs. GRANT. The President—the late President. They’ve got pictures—little pictures before the assassination—they had all of those.

Mr. BURLESON. That’s enough on that. Now, one last area—

Since, and limit this to strictly since the conviction, you have visited Jack nearly daily in the jail?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, I would say at least six times out of the week.

Mr. BURLESON. What is, in your opinion, Jack’s present condition?

Mrs. GRANT. I believe he is mentally deranged, inasmuch as I’m not a doctor, but from what he says to me.

Mr. BURLESON. You have now, as of this moment, been informed by a newspaper and also by me about what Jack attempted to do today?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I have.

Mr. BURLESON. And you were informed and knew of what Jack had attempted to do about a month ago when he rammed his head up against the wall, were you not?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. What has Jack told you as to what you should do with and to yourself?

Mrs. GRANT. He wants me to do away with myself.

Mr. BURLESON. Does he give you a reason why?

Mrs. GRANT. He thinks they are going to kill out all the Jews and he has made remarks that 25 million Jews have been slaughtered.

Mr. BURLESON. Already?

Mrs. GRANT. On the floor below.

Mr. BURLESON. And they are being slaughtered where?

Mrs. GRANT. In the jail and sometimes it’s planes going over and they are dropping bombs on the Jews.

Mr. BURLESON. Has he told you about hearing or seeing Jews boiled in oil?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.

Mr. BURLESON. And has he told you about seeing or hearing his brother, Earl, being dismembered?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and his children.

Mr. BURLESON. And Earl’s children, and by dismembered, he has seen them cut off?

Mrs. GRANT. Arms and legs—they are cut off.

Mr. BURLESON. Does he, nearly every time you talk to him, ask you to check on them, when is the last time?

Mrs. GRANT. I have to sort of tell real lies, that I just got through talking with Sam and Earl and with Eileen and with Sam and everything is OK.

Mr. BURLESON. Because he says that they have been doing this to them?

Mrs. GRANT. He says many times he has seen Sam on the second floor and the rabbi was going—yesterday, they took the rabbi, sometimes they take Stanley.

Mr. BURLESON. That’s Stanley Kaufman you are talking about?

Mrs. GRANT. Stanley Kaufman.

Mr. BURLESON. In other words. Jack just doesn’t make sense when you talk to him?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no; then sometimes he will say one thing that will be all right and then he goes off into this stuff.

Mr. BURLESON. Has Jack told you that he was actually tried for the killing of President Kennedy?

Mrs. GRANT. No; but he thinks that they think that he killed the President.

Mr. BURLESON. Did he tell you that what he went through with was not really a trial, but a farce?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. And part of a play?

Mrs. GRANT. In fact; his verdict is on the 14th and the next day he says to me in front of Eileen, “When will the trial be?”

Mr. BURLESON. Did he say it wasn’t really Judge Brown that was up there but somebody else?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s exactly what he said.

Mr. BURLESON. Did he tell you anything about their introducing evidence in his absence?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. And that evidence that they were supposed to have introduced is the fact that he killed President Kennedy?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, he just thinks they are blaming him for it and they think he did it and they are going to take it out on all the Jews.

Mr. BURLESON. Does he tell you many times that you will never see him again because he will be killed?

Mrs. GRANT. Every time he kisses me goodby that day, he says, “You will never see me again. Do away with yourself.”

Mr. BURLESON. To save yourself this punishment?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.

Mr. BURLESON. What is your opinion as to his present condition mentally?

Mrs. GRANT. I have seen him just 24 hours ago and he was in a very bad state of mind.

Mr. BURLESON. He was in a very bad state of mind?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.

Mr. BURLESON. How about physically?

Mrs. GRANT. He has lost between 35 and 40 pounds to my knowledge. He looks like he has been in a concentration camp.

Mr. BURLESON. What is his greatest desire as you know it right now?

Mrs. GRANT. He wants to tell the Warren Commission the truth—he wants truth serum and a lie detector test.

Mr. BURLESON. The truth being not going into the psychomotor variant epilepsy.

Mrs. GRANT. He don’t know much about that—he doesn’t even know what they are talking about.

Mr. BURLESON. He just wants to tell how he felt and how these things affected him?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.

Mr. BURLESON. I believe that’s all on those.

Mrs. GRANT. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. When he tells you these various things, do you try to straighten him out and say to him that it is not so?

Mrs. GRANT. When it first started—I didn’t realize this—I hadn’t said things—I said, “Don’t be crazy,” just words like that—“what are you talking crazy,” and then when we got to—this Dr. Beavers into the case and I talked to him and he read something of his report and, of course, my sister was here at that time. Every day he would say to her, “You’ll never see me again. Kiss me goodby through the glass.” You know, if it wasn’t so serious it would be funny in a way, because it don’t seem like him. It seems that if I agree with him it’s no good and I have tried—I realize Dr. Beavers said if you’d try agreeing with him then he says, “You don’t believe me, do you?” He says, “They are playing a game with you, don’t believe Phil, don’t believe him.” And I said, “What about the rabbi?” And he says, “The rabbi don’t listen to me.” And truthfully, every time the rabbi went up there he came down sick and disgusted with himself—he’s trying to knock some sense into Jack and it don’t work—it doesn’t register with the rabbi, you see.

Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to get at—you all are trying to discourage him from having these views?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, after talking to the psychiatrist, I said I don’t know what to do. If I tell you, you will agree with him it is no good, and if I don’t—I stay there and listen through this glass.

Mr. BURLESON. I might be able to help with that—help clarify that—when he says that they have just killed Earl or Sam or their children, you say, “No, that’s not true because I just talked to them?”

Mrs. GRANT. I say, “I just talked to them,” and then we’ll get onto something and I will try to talk about a friend who wrote a letter or someone came to see him and he goes right back, he says, “There’s no more Earl. They have dismantled him.” That’s the words he uses.

Mr. BURLESON. And do you come back and say, “Well, it’s not true because I just talked to him 30 minutes ago or 2 hours ago?”

Mrs. GRANT. Or, he makes me promise, “Will you call them tonight to be sure it’s not so—to be sure it wasn’t him,” and I’ll be sure that it is somebody else on the phone. They can check with the calls last Saturday—he made seven calls to Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did?

Mrs. GRANT. Jack; he don’t know that he made them, he don’t know that he made that many. I got the letter that he made them from Eileen at home.

Mr. HUBERT. He is allowed to make phone calls though?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, sometimes—I think he annoys them a little bit—those who sympathize with him and they figure he’s pretty screwy, you know he is really gone—he makes these collect calls to Chicago and they let him and there are one or two guards that aren’t as nice—I think they are not as tolerant.

Mr. BURLESON. Let’s go off the record just a second, so that I can give Mr. Hubert some information.

(Discussion between counsel and the witness off the record.)

Mr. BURLESON. They have a pay phone out there in the jail, do they not?

Let’s go off the record just a second to give Mr. Hubert some information.

(Discussion between counsel off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. I have to explain what went on while we were off the record.

Let the record show that while we were off the record Mr. Burleson was explaining to me the circumstances used in the jail for allowing prisoners, especially those who are under a death sentence to use the pay phone in the jail, and that was the substance of the conversation off the record.

Now, do you have any more questions, Mr. Burleson? Are you through?

Mr. BURLESON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to get into the matter of the financing of the defense of your brother, Jack—I suppose we should start with the selection of the attorneys originally in this case. Now, we know that Mr. Tom Howard apparently took the first affirmative action on behalf of Jack Ruby in the afternoon of November 24.

Mrs. GRANT. On the 24th.

Mr. HUBERT. And I want to ask you if you know by whose authority he took this action?

Mrs. GRANT. Ralph Paul, who knows nothing about lawyers—only knew Howard and they called them thinking they could get back on bond. Now, I didn’t know Oswald died until later in the afternoon. I was hysterical over this shooting and being sick and the President’s assassination—in fact, my television was on but it was turned down.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was Ralph Paul that called Mr. Howard for the initial step?

When it came to the charge of the matter which ultimately followed, did you have anything to do with the selection of the attorneys who would defend your brother Jack?

Mrs. GRANT. Let me put it this way—there was Daugherty and Sullivan and Jim Martin, and one guy was threatened and one fellow’s wife didn’t want him in. Tom Howard pushed Jim Martin out of the case. I was panicky here. I had asked Tom to call Fred Brunner, Charles Tessmer—what is the name of this Erisman?

Mr. BURLESON. Fred Erisman.

Mrs. GRANT. Erisman or something like that and also Percy Foreman to get another lawyer—you know, a super lawyer that I felt—I didn’t know too much about Tom, but talking to Chicago and people telling me here and everything, anyway, Tom remained in the case and I understand he didn’t contact these people as quickly as he should and Earl was panicky up in Detroit.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t Earl come down here as a result of that?

Mrs. GRANT. Not that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Not that day?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know how many days later he did come, but we were on the phone constantly. He went to the west coast and he went to see one of the names there, Mike Shore who knows Frank Sinatra there and we figured that they would know somebody and that’s how Belli came into the picture. Now, that is that part of the picture. Now, we didn’t have any money.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Tonahill, how did he get in?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh: he was a friend of Belli’s—Belli invited him in—as much as I know.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Tonahill came in after Belli did; is that correct?

Mrs. GRANT. Or maybe together—they were together I think on insurance cases previously—I assume this.

Mr. HUBERT. So, Belli chose a local lawyer, as it were, to go along with him; is that the idea?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, Tom was still in the case. Tom called him right away.

Mr. HUBERT. Called who?

Mrs. GRANT. You know more about that—Tom got us an investigator, Bob Dennison.

Mr. BURLESON. You made the statement that Tom called you?

Mrs. GRANT. Tom called you.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean Phil Burleson?

Mrs. GRANT. Phil Burleson.

Mr. HUBERT. And ultimately, in any case, Mr. Belli was retained to handle the defense?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was a fee arrangement made with him?

Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain that part—this is what I know. I was not in San Francisco or Los Angeles. Earl told me this—he says, “You’re looking at Belli—$75,000,” and Earl thought you might as well have said $75 million, but he says, “I will want about $25,000 to pay my expenses and I think I could write a book and make $50,000.”

Mr. HUBERT. Earl was telling you that?

Mrs. GRANT. Earl told me words that——

Mr. HUBERT. That Belli had told him?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and this is what took place in their conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. When you were quoting some sentences there a moment ago, I understood you to mean, and see if I am correct, that Earl was telling you what Belli had told him?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes, and I don’t know if there was a contract—I assumed it was agreeable with Earl. Earl already had talked to a fellow by the name of Billy Woodfield, the writer. Billy Woodfield, and don’t ask me how they got connected—I know little about these things—he’s going to write a short story for Europe, and he probably could help us raise this initial $25,000 cash. Well, no; he didn’t say that—that was for his expenses—he didn’t get any money down that day as far as I know.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, the fee was $75,000, of which he thought——

Mrs. GRANT. He could write a book and retain $50,000 out of the book, but he would like $25,000.

Mr. HUBERT. As soon as possible?

Mrs. GRANT. That I don’t know—he says for expenses on the case.

Mr. HUBERT. How much was actually paid to him; do you know?

Mrs. GRANT. Let me tell you this—the short stories were sold in Europe and some in America through newspapers. Each paper paid separately—$400, $300, $600, and the story said, “My story—Jack Ruby.” I gave most of the story, Jack gave some of it, but I knew this story—what would you call it—little incidents that happened in his life, some of it, and some part of the story was right on Friday and Saturday the 22d. I gave the whole story, you know, I have newspaper stories of it, and I gave it to Belli, and all these little stories, we were supposed to get $50,000 from all the different agencies that bought this to put it in their papers—that’s how it’s done, but we received, I would say to my knowledge, $23,000.

Mr. HUBERT. How was it handled?

Mrs. GRANT. Earl.

Mr. HUBERT. Earl controlled the funds at that time?

Mrs. GRANT. At that time, yes. It came to the writer and the agent, Larry Schiller and Billy Woodfield. Larry sells the story, Billy wrote the story. You know, you need a writer even though you write.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m talking about the money that came to you?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, they received some money on the west coast but they deposited it in a bank with an escrow deal.

Mr. HUBERT. In what bank and under what name was it?

Mrs. GRANT. Earl will tell you—Earl has papers from the bank.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know that?

Mrs. GRANT. I know it’s in Hollywood and I know Earl says he received about $23,000.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not handled in Dallas.

Mrs. GRANT. Not to my knowledge—1 cent of that.

Mr. HUBERT. But you say that Earl is the one who is handling the money?

Mrs. GRANT. At that time, Earl had power of attorney.

Mr. HUBERT. He had a power of attorney from Jack?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this contract was made for the benefit of Jack, as it were, and the money that came in was put into some escrow agreement and then Earl was able to withdraw from that and sign checks against it by virtue of the power of attorney; is that right?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right, that’s right; these people received, I would say, 35 percent.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct—the way I put it?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but we received ourselves, I think, $23,000—there may have been $30,000.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened to the money you did receive?

Mrs. GRANT. Earl has checks that were made out directly to Belli, which I think he himself cashed about $13,200.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is “he”?

Mrs. GRANT. Mr. Melvin Belli. I do know that the doctors were paid and that may have run to $3,500, and we do know that Bob Dennison received $4,000. I cannot give you step by step because I do not have it, but Earl has an accounting of all the money received through the efforts of that story; however, Earl has spent—I don’t know how many thousands. In the first place, I think Earl put in $7,000 right away for things, but he took it out later.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how much has been received all told—you say about $23,000 as a result of the story?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s as much as I know. This is what I know. There may have been some money—we were supposed to get money in later, but I don’t know if we got it.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other people or organizations that contributed any money?

Mrs. GRANT. No; well——

Mr. HUBERT. Or, do you know?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I know. But I’m trying to think how to tell it to you. Recently we received $100 from Walter Winchell in the last 10 days. We received $250 a month ago from friends back in Chicago. Then there is a lot of 5’s and 10’s—I guess I, myself, could not go into that account, by the way. In the city of Dallas, I received $245 that I had given to Eileen to reimburse Earl. We put that in a Jack’s defense fund. I received that amount, then that was December and January—those months, and then in March or April, I think I also took $110—let me tell you, the money comes into the county building, you know, the checks, and when I say I received it, it doesn’t come directly to me.

I typed up all the money on a list and I sent it on to Eileen with a check for deposit of $110. That’s the money that I know, but if we will stop for a minute, I know the hundred, the 250, the 245 and the hundred—those were plus that $23,000. Now, if there is any other money—did I tell you any other money? I told you everything there was.

Mr. HUBERT. There are no substantial amounts?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no; listen, don’t listen to those reports.

Mr. HUBERT. Except from the result of the selling?

Mrs. GRANT. The big fee was $250 and the story was sold, and we received—I would say Larry Schiller and Billy Woodfield took 35 percent of the money—the writer and the agent that sells it of the story. I know there was $23,000 came in and there may have been more since then.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, Earl would have more accurate figures?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, in the handling of the money, it is less than a thousand dollars that came through you?

Mrs. GRANT. I think there is a thousand in all of this money and a few hopes. The New York Times was very sympathetic and they put an ad in their paper. Most papers will not take an ad for what you call “Jack Ruby’s Defense Fund.” The ad cost $150—I think they took it less than the ad.

Mr. HUBERT. You paid $150?

Mrs. GRANT. I didn’t—someone in Chicago or Earl must have paid it, but I do know that, that ad went in. Now, if any other little moneys come in, I don’t have any accounting of it. I know it came in here—this is the money that I know.

Mr. HUBERT. And to your knowledge, then, what has come through your hands is less than a thousand dollars?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, let’s see—$245, $110, $250, and $100—I think that’s about it, unless I have forgotten some, but that’s all I know myself.

Mr. HUBERT. All the rest has been handled by Earl?

Mrs. GRANT. That was for the sale of the short story.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the present time who are the attorneys for Jack Ruby? That he still has? Mr. Tonahill is apparently still in the case?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, we retained Mr. Tonahill and Burleson from the very first minute and they are still in. Shall I tell him about Belli?

Mr. BURLESON. Go ahead.

Mrs. GRANT. The day of the verdict I got a telephone call that if Belli don’t get out of town they are going to kill him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the phone call was from?

Mrs. GRANT. No; but on the other hand, I think——

Mr. HUBERT. Did you convey that information to Mr. Belli?

Mrs. GRANT. No; but unfortunately, I didn’t hear from him Saturday. He had a heart attack while he was here, I think, during the trial—he was deathly sick.

Mr. HUBERT. Belli was?

Mrs. GRANT. There were a few days he went to get a cardiograph and all that. One of the days, 1 of the 2 days—well, it wasn’t 1 day, it was 3 days, really, but he went to court anyway, and I remember on the Saturday he went to some clinic here and got all kinds of tests, but the day before he was almost a goner.

After I heard the news of the verdict and what came over radio or television, I thought he would die. He couldn’t talk on the phone—he mumbled Saturday to some member of my family who called him. I didn’t hear anything until later on—late Sunday afternoon, and Monday I went to visit him at his suite.

Mr. HUBERT. That was here in Dallas?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right; at the Statler-Hilton. He answered the phone and, of course, I heard mumbling and there were newspapermen and Life magazine men—I don’t remember everyone that was there, but there were 10 or 12, maybe about 10 people, my sister and myself. His wife was leaving one direction and he was leaving the other. She was white as a ghost and he was white as a ghost and I just didn’t say anything because they were packed up to leave and I didn’t want it to get out because he said he was going to San Antonio, but I don’t think he went there at all. I think he went another direction because he just wanted to sort of fool who was after him, but it was a very bad day for him and myself and my sister. I didn’t even tell her that. You see, they were downtown and I was home in my apartment the day of the verdict. I was glad when he left. That, and adding up a few other things—people said, “You are lucky to get him out because you didn’t know the things.” They said, “They were trying Melvin Belli and they weren’t trying Jack Ruby.”

Of course, between that telephone call and everything——

Mr. HUBERT. Was that a local call?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Or, was it a long distance call?

Mrs. GRANT. No; it was a local call.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a man or a woman?

Mrs. GRANT. A man, and another thing, I know my phone was tapped and I know—it’s a terrible thing to say, but I have all reasons to believe that the district attorney has been on it and is still on it. The only time they got off is when I went to the FBI and complained about it; that I thought my brother wasn’t protected in the city jail, and somebody knows every move I was making. It seems my phone was clearer after that, and truthfully, if the district attorney has any tapes on me, it should be in on the tape of the day of the verdict, and I was so sick over the verdict and having this.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not recognize the voice that made the threat against Belli?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you asked to convey that information to Belli?

Mrs. GRANT. No; no.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that conversation last; do you know?

Mrs. GRANT. Not over 3 or 4 minutes. It was the other party speaking. This happened the afternoon—the day my brother got his horrible verdict.

Mr. HUBERT. That was Saturday afternoon, March 14?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right; March 14.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time of the afternoon was it?

Mrs. GRANT. I would say after 2:30—sometime between 2:30 and 4, it seems.

Mr. HUBERT. It was a one-sided conversation, I take it?

Mrs. GRANT. Practically.

Mr. HUBERT. And the essence and the gist of the conversation was that if Mr. Belli did not leave town he would be injured?

Mrs. GRANT. The voice said something like this, “Mrs. Grant?” I says, “Yes.” He said, “If Melvin Belli knows what’s good for him, he had better leave town. They are going to kill him.” Now, I don’t know—this man didn’t sound like a child and he didn’t sound like an imbecile.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him who he meant by “they”?

Mrs. GRANT. I’ll tell you the truth, I was so shocked at the verdict, and before I knew it he was off—I was hanging on the phone there by myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you in any way who “they” were?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or who was going to kill him?

Mrs. GRANT. No. Oh, now I want to tell you about—going back to Monday, which would be the 16th, there was conversation and, of course, I think I heard this Sunday too.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s March 16?

Mrs. GRANT. I think March 16 was on a Monday.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s correct.

Mrs. GRANT. But I may have heard this Sunday, that the sheriff—and there has been threats against Belli—and this is another thing I know, whether someone is on my phone and leaked it out—it wasn’t me, that the sheriff is going to give Belli a guard out of town, that he has been threatened, but I already knew that. Then, I got to thinking about all of this and I says, “I hope he leaves, I don’t want to have this on my mind,” but, I knew when I was in his suite of rooms—somebody called there Monday afternoon sometime and he went to the phone for a minute; as a rule someone else was answering the phone, and then he went in the bedroom there and he answered the phone. He had quite a suite of rooms—three rooms, I think, and the remark among the people there—they said the sheriff is going to give him a guard, you know, escort him out of town.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you heard that that afternoon.

Mrs. GRANT. Too, but it wasn’t—I already had known that from the conversation Saturday afternoon, it didn’t look good.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment upon this telephone call that he answered himself?

Mrs. GRANT. No; he hardly did any talking that afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mentioned the telephone call, I wonder why you did so, that is to say, what import you had put on it?

Mrs. GRANT. You want to know the truth?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I want to know the truth.

Mrs. GRANT. I was not thinking anything about it but he is coming back for a trial and I told Phil recently, I thought he was going to get his trial transferred from the Texas Bar Association and I guess he can’t. I wasn’t going to say anything about it—I figured—he’s never coming back, but now I am a little scared. I wouldn’t like anything—look, you don’t want a lawyer in a case?

Mr. HUBERT. Let me finish about this phone call—is there any other significance to that phone call that you heard him answer? You mentioned it in connection with this.

Mrs. GRANT. It didn’t look right when he left—left the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s just an impression, though, he didn’t say anything to indicate the nature of it?

Mrs. GRANT. No; no.

Mr. HUBERT. You indicated that perhaps, I say—you indicated—the way you brought it up—it could be inferred perhaps that it was also a threatening phone call?

Mrs. GRANT. No, no; I didn’t mean that at all.

Mr. HUBERT. But, do you know that to be a fact?

Mrs. GRANT. No, no; this was merely that the sheriff said he was going to escort him out of town.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was the sheriff on the phone?

Mrs. GRANT. It could be—that’s what I felt, and shortly after this there was another phone call came in and he went in and he took the call.

Mr. HUBERT. When you said the rumor or talk was that the sheriff was going to escort him out of town, I assumed you meant he was going to give him protection, is that what you meant?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s what I mean, so he doesn’t get hurt. Maybe the sheriff knows something about this, although he does know—I don’t know. I only know I was too sick after the verdict to even think about anything, but now that I know he’s coming back, I asked Phil, I said, “Do you think he’s coming back?” And he says, “Yes; he’s coming back.”

Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Grant or Mr. Burleson, do you have any other matter I have touched upon that you would like to bring up at this time?

Mr. BURLESON. I would like to go into some of these things you have just questioned her about.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. BURLESON. Right at first, Mr. Tom Howard did go down and talk to Jack on Sunday the 24th?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.

Mr. BURLESON. And did get a writ of habeas corpus, I believe?

Mrs. GRANT. I know nothing of the court procedures of that date.

Mr. BURLESON. You don’t know that Judge Brown did set a bond on assault with intent to commit murder upon Lee Harvey Oswald before this hearing?

Mrs. GRANT. I understand it was filed in Richardson. I may be wrong. Someone told me that, that they did file a murder charge against Oswald.

Mr. BURLESON. Before Oswald was pronounced dead, did you know anything about Judge Joe B. Brown setting bond and granting a writ to let Jack out on assault with intent to commit murder?

Mrs. GRANT. I honestly——

Mr. BURLESON. Do you or not?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t.

Mr. BURLESON. Then, subsequently, Mr. Howard had myself go up and talk to Jack—you learned that, did you not?

Mrs. GRANT. I learned there were about three or four or five attorneys that went up and talked to Jack.

Mr. BURLESON. Then, Mr. Belli came in town and at the time, did you hear from Mr. Tonahill?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. He called you in the middle of the night, I believe?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.

Mr. BURLESON. And did he tell you that he and Mr. Belli were together?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. BURLESON. Did he just mention himself?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. What did he say?

Mrs. GRANT. He asked me if I had hired an attorney and I said, “I think Earl got somebody.” And they were discussing it with Percy Foreman, but I was wrong. They never got to Percy Foreman because Tom Howard never called him.

Mr. BURLESON. Then Melvin Belli did come in town and met with Mr. Tom Howard and Mr. Tonahill?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. And stayed out at the Cabana Hotel, I believe, the motel out on Stemmons Freeway?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, I was never at that hotel to visit them—I can’t remember.

Mr. BURLESON. Earl was in town at the same time Mr. Belli was in town?

Mrs. GRANT. I think you are right there—that they were all over there—Earl was there for a couple of days but I didn’t go there.

Mr. BURLESON. Then Mr. Belli went down and talked with Jack prior to the time and he said that he would accept the case, do you remember that?

Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure he did.

Mr. BURLESON. And after talking to Jack, do you remember he said he would accept the case at that time?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Burleson, may I make this suggestion—of course, this is not a court hearing, on the other hand, for the sake of the value of the testimony, I think if you wouldn’t lead her so much that the testimony might have more weight.

Mrs. GRANT. Well, I’ll tell you, my mind—I’m just about out of my mind.

Mr. BURLESON. Yes. Do you know if that is when I became active in the case—at that time?

Mrs. GRANT. I think you came in about—it seems to me—about a week after this incident—it seems to me that’s when I first met you.

Mr. BURLESON. And do you know if Mr. Belli brought any attorneys with him from California?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. Do you know who that was?

Mrs. GRANT. I know he brought Samuel Brody.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, after this, there was a bond hearing, I believe; is that correct?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. And who sat at the counsel table with Mr. Ruby, your brother?

Mrs. GRANT. I know you were there and I know Mr. Brody and Tonahill, Mr. Belli—I think Tom Howard was there right along then.

Mr. BURLESON. And then, that actually was on one occasion or on two occasions that that bond hearing was held; or do you recall?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me a couple of times—maybe more than that.

Mr. BURLESON. Then bond was denied?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.

Mr. BURLESON. Then, at the time of the change of venue, do you know who the attorneys were at that time?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me the same group were still there.

Mr. BURLESON. Do you recall about that time if anything occurred in connection with Tom Howard and his connection with the case?

Mrs. GRANT. About the picture?

Mr. BURLESON. No; just about whether or not he continued in the case or did he?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me at that time—he was leaking information to the district attorney’s office, he was in the way of Mr. Belli and Mr. Tonahill—at least they felt that or they told me that. We had found a mistrust in him, which is close to that time as I can remember, where information has come to us that Tom Howard is trying to sell a picture of the late President Kennedy being shot and half of his skull is in the air, to Life magazine, and I think Billy Woodfield had told that to Earl and Earl told me to get ahold of the Secret Service, they came out to see me and Elmer Moore, and another gentleman—I cannot think of the other gentleman’s name—he probably could recall—and we went in the alley because I don’t know if my place is bugged or not, and the Secret Service stepped in to either squash the sale of this particular picture or got ahold of it—the films and everything, and, of course, when Belli found out, he was sick because he said it don’t look right for an attorney representing a person to do something like this.

Mr. BURLESON. All right. Anyway—somewhere around there——

Mr. HUBERT. May I examine her just a little on that point?

Mr. BURLESON. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever find out whether it was true that Mr. Howard was doing this?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, since then I heard it was true, but doubly true there’s some girl that works for one of your departments who heard and who told another person that there is evidence there is a picture of that kind in existence.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen the picture?

Mrs. GRANT. No; I haven’t. I also heard several days before the assassination there was a pamphlet put in all the drugstores where you sell magazines and was distributed all through the city of Dallas with the late President’s picture, and the top of its says, “Wanted” and the bottom had a number like a jailman, you know, a convict, and the day of the assassination, early that afternoon these distributors had a devil of a time trying to remember all the places they placed that particular pamphlet, that was for sale for 10 cents or 15 cents.

Mr. BURLESON. Come back up to his question.

Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to explore whether or not it had come to your knowledge whether the story was the truth or not?

Mrs. GRANT. This all came to me—call me back on the word “communism” that I said later on, if you want?

Mr. BURLESON. Do you know anything else about this alleged sale of the picture?

Mrs. GRANT. Nothing, but Earl told me to get ahold of the men here and I did and I called the office and Elmer Moore came out and I told him.

Mr. BURLESON. All right. Coming back—along about this time—did you, Earl, and Stanley Kaufman and so forth enter into some kind of a contract with Mr. Howard where he would withdraw from the case?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. Did you pay him some money?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; the first week he was in, I had a little money and I think it was when I sold the Vegas Club and I think I had $1,600 and I had bills to pay but I didn’t pay them and I gave him $200.

Mr. BURLESON. At the time that you terminated his services in the case, did you pay him some money then?

Mrs. GRANT. We gave him a check for $2,000—we gave him $2,700 altogether, but I gave him $2,000 when he signed the contract to step out of the case.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, when the change of venue hearing started——

Mrs. GRANT. By the way, when I say “I gave him”—that money came also out of the $23,000.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, when the change of venue started and the picking of the jury followed, who were the attorneys then that were sitting there at the counsel table?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, Belli, Tonahill and yourself—I don’t remember—I think Sam Brody was sick and went home. However, Mr. Belli brought in a young gentleman who came and sat for a while.

Mr. BURLESON. Could that have been Mr. Bill Choulous?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. And that was out of Mr. Belli’s office?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.

Mr. BURLESON. Then, when it got into the actual trial of the case after the change of venue lasted about a week, who were the attorneys then during the picking of the jury?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, Mr. Burleson, Mr. Joe Tonahill, and Mr. Belli did all the work from picking the jury and through the trial.

Mr. BURLESON. The three of them?

Mrs. GRANT. The three of them.

Mr. BURLESON. And they continued on through the trial?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. And they were the only ones sitting with Jack Ruby at the time of the verdict?

Mrs. GRANT. You know, I was not in the courtroom all during the trial. They kept me out in the lobby, but I do know—that is what I heard or saw.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, within a week after the verdict came in, did you write a letter to Mr. Belli dismissing him from the case or asking him to withdraw, one or the other?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. You told him in the letter—what?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, I couldn’t reach him by telephone and since he’s traveling around, and I’m——

Mr. BURLESON. What did you tell him in the letter?

Mrs. GRANT. Say it again?

Mr. BURLESON. Did you tell him in effect if he didn’t resign you would fire him?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, yes; words to that effect.

Mr. BURLESON. In other words, he did resign?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that letter was published in the press, was it not?

Mrs. GRANT. No—I never gave it to them. If it was, it shouldn’t be, because we only made three copies, the original went to him and one to Mr. Burleson and one to Tonahill. I didn’t want any more copies around—I didn’t want that—that was one of the things that bothered me.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know, ma’am, I had the impression that I had seen that letter through seeing a copy of it in the press.

Mrs. GRANT. If you did—I didn’t see it here, or we didn’t, and we would have known it.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know—I may be mistaken.

Mrs. GRANT. That is one thing—that’s the whole thing—the whole case was tried in the papers.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, after that you were feeling pretty low and sick at that time, weren’t you?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. Did your family—Earl and Sam and sisters go down to Houston and talk to Mr. Percy Foreman?

Mrs. GRANT. They did.

Mr. BURLESON. Was a contract drawn up at that time?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; there was.

Mr. BURLESON. Did Mr. Foreman know you had Jack Ruby’s power of attorney?