Chapter XXVI: Part 26

Mrs. RICH. It was obtained there; yes. And if I remember, it had eluded me when I first talked to them. And if I am not mistaken—I should have brought it—I have it on the back of a business card at home, that I turned up among some of my old business cards from Dallas in an envelope. Now, whether or not I had recalled that and told them at the first meeting or whether it was part of the additional information I don’t remember. But it seems to me I turned that business card up and did not remember that at the first talking with the FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose name was on the front of the business card?

Mrs. RICH. Some advertising agency. It was just some card I marked it down on.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the advertising business in 1961?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mrs. RICH. In Boston. I handled the National Automatic Merchandising Association NAMA Week.

Mr. HUBERT. What part of 1961?

Mrs. RICH. The first week in April we had the Governor proclaim it.

Mr. HUBERT. Who said that the contact was going to be at this hotel in Guadalajara?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t know which one said it, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember at what meeting this was said?

Mrs. RICH. I believe at the third—the second. I wouldn’t swear, but I think the third.

Mr. HUBERT. It was definitely not the first.

Mrs. RICH. No; definitely not the first. Either the second or the third.

Mr. HUBERT. It was at the second that you had raised your price, I think, to $25,000.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was either that meeting or the third meeting that you got the information about the contact point being in this hotel.

Mrs. RICH. I am not sure which one it was, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that you did not know where this house was located in Dallas.

Mrs. RICH. I couldn’t give you a street; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us a general area of Dallas?

Mrs. RICH. I am sorry, sir, I wish I could. I would recognize the house if I saw it. I cannot explain the human mind to you. Why is it that sometimes if you don’t want to remember something, you can block things off? It was something distasteful to me. I have perhaps not been a model person but——

Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard from this man Dave since you left Dallas?

Mrs. RICH. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Does the name Dave Cherry mean anything to you?

Mrs. RICH. That’s it. I have been wracking my brain for that name. A swell-looking fellow—crewcut, young, real college-looking type.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known him?

Mrs. RICH. A couple of months.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet him?

Mrs. RICH. University Club. I believe I met him there. Just precisely where I met him I don’t know. I think the University Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that prior to the time your husband came to Dallas?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember if I met him before or after, to be truthful.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, he was the man who made the contact.

Mrs. RICH. Again, as I told the FBI, I will swear about 99 percent of it that he was the one.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you went there—he was present at three meetings.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And you knew him for 2 months prior to that.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct—about.

Mr. HUBERT. Why should there be any doubt in your mind whatsoever?

Mrs. RICH. Because somewhere another face keeps popping up. And don’t ask me to go into it, because I could not if I tried.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you think it might not be Dave Cherry?

Mrs. RICH. No; that it is. I am about 1 percent unsure. And I told the FBI that. But that is the only face I can put with that. And I keep putting Dave in that car and over there with us.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you advise your husband about being tailed recently?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; my husband is aware of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now——

Mrs. RICH. As I say, I don’t believe this has anything to do with this at all. I told you merely because I was told to. Otherwise I would never point it out.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps we ought to get for the record what the names of these Secret Service and FBI agents are. I think you mentioned their last names. Do you know their first names?

Mrs. RICH. No; I do not, sir. I would not know them if I saw them.

Mr. HUBERT. They just spoke to you on the telephone?

Mrs. RICH. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know they were FBI agents?

Mrs. RICH. The first time when Mr. Fahety called me I was not sure, and I would not answer any questions. So he said, “Call me back collect” and I called the FBI back collect and it was true enough. Mr. Sweeny I know it was, because he said he bought the tickets and had information only the Secret Service would know, and that Mr. Milton would pick me up subsequently, which he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned, I think, Mrs. Rich, that you were going to use a boat to transport the guns to Cuba and the people back.

Mrs. RICH. That’s correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was this boat located?

Mrs. RICH. From what I understood; in Miami.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a boat was it?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. I was under the impression it might have been an old picket boat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What gave you that impression?

Mrs. RICH. Just the talk about it. I kind of got the impression that it might have been one that had been—you know how the Coast Guard and the Navy would sell them off sometime.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Dave Cherry been a friend of your husband’s?

Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t believe so. I do not know who his friends were when he was in Dallas. Eddie Brawner and Youngblood were. Eddie Brawner could probably tell you more on this than I could; because my husband talked to him and wanted to go on the boat with him. He and Eddie used to race stock cars and stuff. And he told me—my husband claimed he used to work for Herb Noble in Dallas. There is something else. And Al Meadows. Al Meadows claimed he never saw him. He is another underworld character—back there in prohibition. And they used to run an Oklahoma gin. My husband claimed he was the only one alive who knew who gunned Herb Noble down, and that he never told. And I don’t know if it is true. Eddie Brawner was supposed to be in on this with him. I think he told Eddie all about this, more than I knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after your husband came to Dallas did Dave Cherry meet him?

Mrs. RICH. I could not really say, actually.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what was the nature of his friendship for Dave Cherry?

Mrs. RICH. How did he meet him?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No. To what extent were they friendly?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. They would go off some time and I would not even be there. Actually a lot of the stuff that transpired I could not tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this before or after the meeting with the colonel?

Mrs. RICH. He know Dave before the meeting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how had he met him?

Mrs. RICH. Through me. And then again I am not clear whether I met him—this is another point I am not clear on. I am not clear whether Bob met Dave and introduced him to me or I introduced Dave to Bob. Here again I am not clear. This may sound ridiculous, but I am not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your husband’s experience with boats?

Mrs. RICH. Again, factually I cannot tell you. Supposedly he had been in gun running before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the only experience you know of that he had with boats?

Mrs. RICH. He claimed he owned a big boat, he and Lee Dell owned a big boat out in California. I guess he did because he had pictures of it and him working around it. I still have the pictures. Now, Lee Dell, there is another man could probably shed some light on this. But God knows where he is. I never met the man. You see, I don’t know just exactly what I was involved in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you don’t know what your role was to be in this?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, you mean in this gun-running stuff to Cuba?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. RICH. Just by sheer force of will and apparently because they wanted my husband, I was going to go along.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were going to go along as a passenger?

Mrs. RICH. I was going to help working the boat, because I had knowledge of boats.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What knowledge did you have of the boats?

Mrs. RICH. I was born and brought up in Biddeford, Maine. I have worked on lobster boats a good many years off and on. My uncle owns them.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any occasion on which you went to the University Club and had some drinks and didn’t pay for them?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t think I ever paid for drinks at the University Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mrs. RICH. Dave never took money.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go alone?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember. I believe so. Maybe, maybe not.

Mr. HUBERT. But they would not take your money?

Mrs. RICH. Dave never charged me. He always told me it was all right. And I don’t drink anyway. All I drink is coke. Once in a great, great while I will drink either a grasshopper or like last night I was all keyed up so I had a brandy Alexander before I went to bed. But I might have done this five times in 10 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember an argument you had with your former and deceased husband, Robert Perrin, in the University Club, which argument was witnessed by Dave Cherry?

Mrs. RICH. I never had an argument with my husband in the University Club or anywhere else.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the manager of the University Club telling you that neither you nor your husband could return to the club thereafter?

Mrs. RICH. I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever telephone Cherry advising him that you were leaving for New Orleans and that you expected to work for the Playboy Club there?

Mrs. RICH. I believe I did. I might have, because that is what my plans happened to have been.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact work for the Playboy Club?

Mrs. RICH. Yes, I did.

Mr. HUBERT. For how long?

Mrs. RICH. 2 or 3 nights.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened?

Mrs. RICH. I didn’t like it. For one thing, you were not allowed to keep tips.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live in New Orleans?

Mrs. RICH. Part of the time down in one of the Sisters’ places, down in the French Quarter, on St. Philip’s Street. And then 1713 Calhoun. That is where my husband died. And various other places which I cannot remember, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did your husband do for a living while you were in New Orleans?

Mrs. RICH. The last time he had the best position I have ever seen him hold. He was working for a construction company.

Mr. HUBERT. Which one?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, dear. Dickie Bennett, Mr. McHane, those were two of his bosses—Mr. White.

Mr. HUBERT. What construction was he working on?

Mrs. RICH. Well, he was a mechanic for the heavy equipment. He was just getting a raise and everything when this happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the location where he was working?

Mrs. RICH. Yes, out in Jeff Parish.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the building going up there?

Mrs. RICH. No, they had this contract for the phone company. They would lay all their roads, and the poles and stuff, and various things. He would go out on jobs. I got him the job through Dickie Bennett.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not work at that time?

Mrs. RICH. I——

Mr. HUBERT. I mean the time you were in New Orleans.

Mrs. RICH. I would rather not answer that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This——

Mrs. RICH. I will answer to this extent. For one thing, I dealt black jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Rich, you mentioned the name of a man by the name of Brawner. Now, did Mr. Brawner ever attend any of these meetings with the colonel?

Mrs. RICH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So his only knowledge of this would be what your husband might have told him.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does Mr. Brawner do for a living?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t know what Eddie does—odd jobs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a man is he?

Mrs. RICH. Middle age—40, maybe. Does a lot of work with kids in these go carts—soap box derbies and stuff. I guess they used to be in the carnival together. As I say, everything I say, I don’t know how much truth there is in it from what my husband told me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does Mr. Brawner live?

Mrs. RICH. Grand Prairie.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where in Grand Prairie?

Mrs. RICH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he married?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he have a family?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; he does. I believe his wife’s name is Mary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many children does he have?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember—quite a few—three or four.

I would like one thing known. Until the time I met my husband and since he died I have done nothing that I would be ashamed of, nothing I would not do in public. Now that I am married to Mr. Rich I do not want any recriminations due to the fact of the period of time I was married to my husband. My husband—the first year and a half of our marriage was beautiful. Then my husband turned me out. Don’t ask me why I didn’t leave him. Everyone else asked me that. It is not easy being something that is against everything that you believe in or stand for 2 years. There were periods—I told the FBI this, and I might as well state it right here. I was a prostitute—call it what you may—call girl, madam. It still boils down to the same damn thing. When I worked, he worked. When I quit, he quit.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Robert Perrin?

Mrs. RICH. I am talking about Robert Perrin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you marry Mr. Perrin?

Mrs. RICH. July of—August of 1960, I believe—1961. I have forgotten.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to that time you had never been in any trouble with the police?

Mrs. RICH. No; except when I was 16, I was driving a car with no license and had been taking some medicine and I hit a pole with it, and lied to my uncle, who was the judge, and he made me pay a fine. He made me spend overnight in our own little jail in our own little town to teach me a lesson, and it did. He said if I had not lied, it would have been all right.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the significance of your remark that when you worked he worked, and when you did not work——

Mrs. RICH. As long as I was hustling he would work, and as long as I wasn’t hustling he would not work.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that mean he was——

Mrs. RICH. My husband turned me out. That is what it means.

Mr. HUBERT. Turned you out of the house?

Mrs. RICH. This is an expression used in that particular trade.

Mr. HUBERT. What you mean is——

Mrs. RICH. He taught me how to be a prostitute, obtained dates for me, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I married into a very respectable family. I come from a respectable family. And I came here today all set on any question such as this to take the fifth amendment, or just refuse to answer.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, ma’am, let the record show that a moment ago, when you said you would rather not go into this, you were not pressed into going into it, but you said you wished to do so, is that correct?

Mrs. RICH. That is not correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the situation?

Mrs. RICH. Why did I do it?

Mr. HUBERT. No; why did you tell us about this?

Mrs. RICH. I am sorry. Change my statement from that is not correct to that is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say a moment ago—let me get this clear—when you said that is a matter you did not want to go into, you will agree with me, will you not, that I did not pursue the matter, but that you then said “I might as well tell you” and proceeded to do so.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct. Why did I do so?

Mr. HUBERT. No, ma’am; I am not asking you why.

Mrs. RICH. All right, that’s fine.

Mr. HUBERT. I think we do have the date of your husband’s death.

Mrs. RICH. August 29, 1962, city of New Orleans.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say there was an autopsy made?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; there was. He had been dead 2 days before I knew it. I wasn’t there. I think all I felt was a great sense of relief.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mrs. Rich, is it not a fact that there has been no off-the-record conversation between us at all?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct?

Mr. HUBERT. Is it not a fact that all that has occurred between you and me in this interview, with Mr. Griffin, is all on the record?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Thank you, Mrs. Rich.

TESTIMONY OF EARL RUBY

The testimony of Earl Ruby was taken at 9 a.m., on June 3, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Earl Ruby.

My name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the Advisory Staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Under the provisions of the Presidential Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission, in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized by the Commission to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Ruby, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and about any possible relationship of Jack Ruby with that death, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Mr. Ruby, I think you appear here today by virtue of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel for the staff of the President’s Commission. Is that a fact, sir?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is true.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that received?

Mr. RUBY. I received that Monday when I returned home from work about 7 p.m., it was waiting for me.

Mr. HUBERT. It was June 1?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of it?

Mr. RUBY. That it was mailed?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. It was mailed May 28.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think there is any problem about it, but just to make certain, under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day notice if he wishes. I think that there has actually been a 3-day notice under the rules of the Commission since the 3 days commence to run from the time of the mailing of the document, but in this case, as I said, the rules provide that you can waive the 3-day written notice, and I will ask you now if you are willing to waive it and go on with your testimony today.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I am willing to waive the 3-day notice.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand, then, and raise your right hand, so I may administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please, sir?

Mr. RUBY. Earl R. Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Forty-nine.

Mr. HUBERT. You are married?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who are you married to? What was the maiden name of the lady you married?

Mr. RUBY. Margie Greene.

Mr. HUBERT. And have you been married only once?

Mr. RUBY. No; I was married twice.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of your first wife?

Mr. RUBY. Mildred Brownstein.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you marry her, and where?

Mr. RUBY. I married her in Chicago in 1945.

Mr. HUBERT. And how was that marriage dissolved?

Mr. RUBY. Through divorce.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was the divorce obtained?

Mr. RUBY. In Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. You have been married, then, twice only?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And do you have any children?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; three.

Mr. HUBERT. Any from the first marriage?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. For the record, would you state the names of the children and their ages?

Mr. RUBY. Robert, 15 years of age; Denise, 13 years of age; and Joyce, 10 years of age.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you presently reside?

Mr. RUBY. 29925 Woodland Drive, Southfield, Mich.

Mr. HUBERT. Is Southfield near Detroit?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; it is a suburb, northwest suburb of Detroit.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Ruby, I wish to get some general background concerning you, starting off with where you were born and where you spent the early years of your life. Will you tell us, please?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. I was born in Chicago on April 16, 1915, and I lived on what is known as the east side of Chicago, and went to school in that area for a few years, and then my mother and father became separated, and I was sent to a foster home, and then I also was sent to live on a farm for a year, a little more than a year. Then I came back and lived in another foster home for awhile. Then we sort of, the family sort of, got together and I moved back with my mother and the rest of the family other than my father, and then we more or less lived together until I enlisted in the Service in 1942, and then my mother passed away in 1944, and then I became married in 1945. Is that skipping too much, do you think?

Mr. HUBERT. No; I would like to go back a bit and get some dates on some of the things you have said there. For example, when did your father and mother separate so that home was broken?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I don’t remember, it is so far.

Mr. HUBERT. How old were you, roughly?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t even know, 8, 7, 8, 9. I don’t even remember.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think it would have been around the early 1920’s, 1922, 1923, 1924, somewhere along in there?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. I don’t remember those dates at all.

Mr. HUBERT. What were the foster homes? Were they sort of orphanages?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or homes.

Mr. RUBY. Private homes.

Mr. HUBERT. Private homes?

Mr. RUBY. Private homes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you separated from your brothers and sisters when you went to the foster home, or did they go to the same foster home?

Mr. RUBY. On the farm I was with my brother Sam, and Jack was in another farm some distance away from us. In the foster home Sam and I were together again, I think, just Sam and I. Then in another foster home, I think Jack was with us. The three of us were in one foster home together.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you said that you lived at what was called the east side in Chicago.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; it was like the ghetto of Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to get what sort of a neighborhood is that? What sort of a district was it?

Mr. RUBY. It was the Maxwell Street district of Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe that a bit?

Mr. RUBY. It is where they have the pushcarts on the street. I don’t know a word that would describe that, but you know, have all their wares displayed right on the street and right on the sidewalk. It is several blocks long.

Mr. HUBERT. The foster homes were not in that neighborhood, were they?

Mr. RUBY. No, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were the farms?

Mr. RUBY. The farm that I was on was in Woodstock, Ill.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of work were you doing on the farm?

Mr. RUBY. We helped the farmer, you know, with regular farm chores. We fed the cows and the horses and took the cows to the pasture and brought them back.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to school during all that time?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Even when you were on the farm?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.

Mr. HUBERT. So that what is your educational background?

Mr. RUBY. I finished high school.

Mr. HUBERT. Which one?

Mr. RUBY. Crane High School in Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any other formal education in the sense of special training in any field?

Mr. RUBY. I would say no.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us something of the background and early life of your brother Jack, say, from the time 1925 forward, 1930, along in there? I think he is a couple of years older than you.

Mr. RUBY. Yes. He is about 3 years older than I am. Well, I can tell you that he always seemed to be in fights in one manner or another that I can remember. He was like the bodyguard of the family, you might say, because in those years we lived a half block from Roosevelt Road, and on the other side of the road was the Italian section, and that was called, we used to call it Dago Town, and the Jews couldn’t go near that street. And my sisters, well, if they weren’t escorted to the streetcars then and nobody arranged to meet them at the streetcar when they returned from work, they would be insulted and abused. So that was, more or less, Jack’s job, if I recall, to meet them there.

He always had to go and meet them at the streetcar when they were returning from work. In the morning I don’t think it was so bad because so many people were going to the streetcar.

Mr. HUBERT. How old was Jack at that time that you are describing? I gather it would have been after the family was brought together again.

Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. This goes back, it must have been in the twenties. Maybe he was 15 years old or so.

Mr. HUBERT. When did the family come back together again after having been separated?

Mr. RUBY. Maybe 1928 or 1929. I am not sure of these dates, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. The reason I asked is because I was under the impression that after your father left, there was a breakup of the family, and then you were not living in this section of Chicago.

Mr. RUBY. No. We moved west on Sacramento Boulevard. That is when I remember coming back to the family.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at are these instances that Jack had to act as bodyguard against the Italian element, as you put it. That was not when you were living in foster homes, was it?

Mr. RUBY. No, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor was it when you were living on the farm?

Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. That was in Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. So it was either prior to the breakup of the family or afterwards?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. After the reconciliation, or was it both?

Mr. RUBY. I would say that I remember it was prior.

Mr. HUBERT. He was just a teenager then?

Mr. RUBY. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. When the family was brought together again, which was around 1928, where did the family live then?

Mr. RUBY. On Sacramento Boulevard in Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is a different thing from the so-called east side?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is further west.

Mr. HUBERT. And you didn’t have any such difficulties at that time?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; we did, because even though we were west we were still borderlining the Italian element, but we were further west. But it was an improvement as to the other section.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the family remained more or less as a unit, I gather it is your testimony, until the war came.

Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes. Before the war Jack lived in San Francisco for awhile.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did he live there, do you know?

Mr. RUBY. It would be a few years. I don’t know exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. I think he went there with your sister.

Mr. RUBY. That is right, sir; and he was working for a newspaper selling subscriptions.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why they went out to the west coast?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. It was just Eva and Jack?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had the other girls married by then?

Mr. RUBY. I think one sister was married. I think my sister Ann was married by then.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever, yourself, been convicted of any felony?

Mr. RUBY. No; never.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any business dealings at all with Jack prior to 1933, that is to say, prior to the time you moved to the west coast?

Mr. RUBY. Business dealings? No; because I was going to school then. I was in grammar school and high school.

Mr. HUBERT. In 1933 actually you were 18.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I was in high school.

Mr. HUBERT. What about your business associations with Jack after his return from the west coast, until you went into the service? Did you have any?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. We worked together for, oh, I think maybe a year. He and another fellow, I think his name is Harry Epstein, organized the Spartan Novelty Co., which has been out of business for many years.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that a corporation?

Mr. RUBY. No; it was just a small company, very.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you a part of it then, or did you become a part of it?

Mr. RUBY. No; I was only an employee. I worked with them.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the business of that company?

Mr. RUBY. It was selling cedar chests with candy and punchcards.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that business last?

Mr. RUBY. Only until, I worked with them only until the war broke out, because I came back. I was working with them—right after the war broke out December 7, then February—some time in February—I enlisted in the Seabees of the Navy, and then I went into the service, and when I came out of the service, my other three brothers were still in, and I started up the same type of business, cedar chests with candy.

Mr. HUBERT. This Spartan Novelty Co. was really prior to the war then?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And it lasted how many years?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I only worked for them about a year.

Mr. HUBERT. Is Epstein still living?

Mr. RUBY. Still living? Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. RUBY. In Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. What business is he in?

Mr. RUBY. He sells, manufactures and sells—what would you call that—I think onyx desk sets. I did have business dealings then. Do you want me to go on now?

Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to ask you about a trip that I think you took to Seattle in 1941. Do you remember that?

Mr. RUBY. Seattle?

Mr. HUBERT. Washington; yes.

Mr. RUBY. Seattle in 1941. In 1942 in the service, 1942.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did go to Seattle?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, because I went through the Seabees. I was in the Seabees, and we shoved off from Bremerton, Wash., which, as you know, is right across the bay from Seattle. That is the only time I remember being there.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember the name of Daniel Sloan?

Mr. RUBY. I know the Sloan family in Chicago, but I don’t know if his name is Daniel.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any Sloan family, and particularly a Daniel Sloan, in Seattle?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And your statement is that you did not visit him prior to the war at all?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or had you ever been to Seattle prior to the war?

Mr. RUBY. No. Only with the Seabees when we stayed at Camp—I can’t remember—I think it is Lewis, Fort Lewis there. We stayed with the Army because they had no facilities, and we then went across to Bremerton and we got on a ship there and left from there.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go to?

Mr. RUBY. The Aleutian Islands.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in the service?

Mr. RUBY. In the service? About 2 years.

Mr. HUBERT. And were you honorably discharged?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You left the service prior to the end of the war, then?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you explain how that came about?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I had some trouble with a varicocele in my testicles.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you sure it is not varicose?

Mr. RUBY. No, they call it varicocele. It is a little different.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a medical discharge?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, I think it is called a medical.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any disability of such a nature that you received disability pay?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, 10 percent.

Mr. HUBERT. And you still do?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. Anyhow, how this took place, they were going to operate, and they prepared me for the operation the night before. You know, they shaved me and all that, and give me the pill, the sleeping pill or whatever it was, and then the next morning I got up and I was dopey, of course, and I felt—and there was no operation—no pain, and I couldn’t understand it, and so when I was able enough to talk coherently I called the nurse and asked her what happened. She says they changed their mind, and they were going to discharge me from the service because they didn’t think I would be of much use to them after the operation. I think that was the reason, or they decided that.

Mr. HUBERT. So you left the service in 1944?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go then?

Mr. RUBY. Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you live with?

Mr. RUBY. The family.

Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do?

Mr. RUBY. And I started up this cedar chest business again.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a trade name then?

Mr. RUBY. I called it Earl Products Co.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not a corporation?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any kind of a punchboard operation?

Mr. RUBY. No; that was before. That was the Spartan Novelty. Mine was just selling—no, I sold some punchboards, that is right. I sold some punchboards with my operation for about a year.

Mr. HUBERT. These were candy punchboards, were they?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Where you might win some candy, is that correct, if you punched the right number?

Mr. RUBY. Well, they could win a box of candy or win a pen set, I think it was.

Mr. HUBERT. What area did you operate in as to the Earl Products Co.?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I operated it through Earl Mail, more or less, through advertising in the Billboard Magazine, and I shipped in, it wasn’t a large operation, but I shipped out of State all the way across the country. I don’t remember the States, but I did ship quite a few States over the years.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were alone at the time?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, I was by myself then.

Mr. HUBERT. Did your brothers ultimately join you?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; as my brothers came out of the service, I took them in and gave them a piece of the business. First Sam came out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they invest?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or they just came in?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. They didn’t put up any money?

Mr. RUBY. When Sam came out, I gave him half interest. Then when my oldest brother came out——

Mr. HUBERT. That is Jack?

Mr. RUBY. No; Hyman. And then I took him in. Then when Jack came out, then I took him in. So we were all together for not too long because it just wasn’t enough for all of us.

Mr. HUBERT. You all were sharing the profits?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Equally?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not on a salary or commission basis?

Mr. RUBY. I think we were sharing that equally. I am quite sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened to the company?

Mr. RUBY. Well, then my brother Hyman left us, and then there was Jack, Sam, and myself left.

Mr. HUBERT. What did Hyman leave for? What was the reason for his leaving?

Mr. RUBY. There just wasn’t enough money, and you know when there is not enough money we have a few arguments in the family, so he decided to leave.

Mr. HUBERT. What business did he go into?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t remember. I think he went himself in some company.

Mr. HUBERT. Then there were three of you. What happened then?

Mr. RUBY. Then my sister Eva had been in Dallas for, oh, a few years, and she had been writing to Jack and telling him how good it was down there.

Mr. HUBERT. What was she doing, do you recall?

Mr. RUBY. Running a nightclub. I think it was called the Silver Spur.

Mr. HUBERT. And then?

Mr. RUBY. So Jack and Sam had an argument, and so we just couldn’t get along, so we decided to buy Jack out.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say you and Sam decided to do that?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes, yes; and we then bought him out. I think we paid him something like $14,000 or $15,000, 14,000 and some hundred dollars, and he left for Dallas, and he remained there until the incident happened.

Mr. HUBERT. When he had the argument with Sam which led to his leaving the Earl Products Co., did he intend then to go to Dallas? Was that one of the causes for his leaving?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know what was in his mind. I don’t remember. I just don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he paid?

Mr. RUBY. We paid him a lump sum, about $14,000 or $15,000, so when he left he had quite a bit of money.

Mr. HUBERT. In cash?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; he had quite a bit of money.

Mr. HUBERT. And he left for Dallas shortly thereafter?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; very shortly thereafter he left.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been what year, sir; about?

Mr. RUBY. I think 1947; 1947.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you keep in contact with him?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; we corresponded, not too often. We came up every few years. Of course, he came up for my mother’s funeral in 1944. Then he came up for my dad’s funeral.

Mr. HUBERT. He came from the service for your mother’s funeral, I suppose?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right. At that time he was in the service.

Mr. HUBERT. And your father died in what year?

Mr. RUBY. 1960.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you and your brother Sam changed your name from Rubenstein to Ruby by a court proceeding for that purpose?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that a coordinated decision between you and Sam?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You know, do you not, that Jack did the same thing about the same time?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that coordinated with him, too?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think so. In our conversations in telling him that we were doing it, maybe he decided to do it, but I don’t know if it had any bearing at all.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for the change of name?

Mr. RUBY. Well, first, everybody called me Ruby, even in the service, and wherever I went they called me Ruby, so that was one of the reasons to change it.

Mr. HUBERT. After Jack left did you and Sam continue in business?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. For how long?

Mr. RUBY. For possibly 8 or 9 years, anyhow.

Mr. HUBERT. You still lived in Chicago at that time?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what was the cause of the breakup of the Earl Products Co. which then consisted of you and Sam only, and of Sam’s removal to Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I didn’t like—he was supposed to handle the shop and I was handling the office and the advertising, and by this time, when I say “shop” you must understand we were now in the manufacturing business.

Mr. HUBERT. What were you manufacturing?

Mr. RUBY. We were manufacturing aluminum salt and pepper shakers, key chains, bottle openers, screw drivers, small hammers.

Mr. HUBERT. How large an operation was that?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I think our maximum sales there reached about a quarter of a million dollars.

Mr. HUBERT. How many employees did you have at the maximum?

Mr. RUBY. Its maximum we had there was probably 40 at any given time. Anyhow, he was supposed to run the shop and I was supposed to run the office, and I didn’t think he was taking care of the shop the way he should, and I told him several times, and finally he says, “Well, if you can do better, you can take care of that yourself,” and he didn’t report to work for almost a year.

In the meantime, I was giving him his check every week. So, finally I decided after waiting that long that the only thing to do was dissolve the partnership and buy him out.

Mr. HUBERT. How much did you pay him when you bought him out?

Mr. RUBY. I paid him a total of about $30,000.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say you actually paid him a weekly salary check?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Although he didn’t do any work at all?

Mr. RUBY. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing as a matter of fact during that year?

Mr. RUBY. Nothing. He was just—just nothing.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t even see him do you mean?

Mr. RUBY. No; I didn’t see him for about almost a year.

Mr. HUBERT. And you made no effort to correct that situation?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; I talked and members of the family talked to him, and finally in order to dissolve it, I even called Jack and had him come up from Dallas to see if he could, you know, make peace in the family, and he just couldn’t do it.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been around 1954 or 1955?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; right in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Then when you bought out Jack, did you continue to operate the Earl Products Co. alone?

Mr. RUBY. You mean Sam?

Mr. HUBERT. Sam I mean; yes.

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; I operated until 1959.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened to the company?

Mr. RUBY. Then I sold it.

Mr. HUBERT. To whom?

Mr. RUBY. To Herschel Oliff, and the reason I sold it was I was manufacturing a line of novelties, and the Japan imports were just cutting down my business and I could see the handwriting on the wall, so I decided I had better get out while I can, which I did.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. RUBY. Then I didn’t work for, oh, 6 or 8 months.

Mr. HUBERT. I assume you were living off of the profits?

Mr. RUBY. Well, he was paying me.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean the purchaser, Mr. Oliff, was paying you?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; he gave me so much down and so much a week so I was able to get along. Anyhow, at that time I became depressed and I was thinking of doing away with myself, so I went over to the veterans hospital in Chicago and talked to them over there, and they suggested I come in there, which I did, and I stayed a few weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you were hospitalized?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; they hospitalized me in the psychopathic ward there, and I stayed there a week or two, and then I couldn’t see—there were so many of us and they couldn’t, at least I didn’t think they were helping me, so I left one day. I just up and walked out; but then I got sick again.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you became depressed again?

Mr. RUBY. I became depressed again.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, just a few days.

Mr. HUBERT. So you went back?

Mr. RUBY. So I went back again. Then I decided well, the only way I can help myself, I mean I can do myself any good, is get out of this place and get a job.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you married then?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.

Mr. HUBERT. That was to your first wife then?

Mr. RUBY. No, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Your second wife?

Mr. RUBY. Second wife, and I said I’ve got my family you know, I had better take care of them. The only thing that will help me, at least that was my thinking, is to go out and get a job and maybe that is what I need, you know, because I felt that I wouldn’t be able to hold a job or something. Anyhow those were my thoughts. So, I went out and got a job for Worldwide Music in Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of that work?

Mr. RUBY. They sell and place juke boxes.

The Seeberg Agency and the Rockola Distributors, a pretty big company, nice people, and I worked there about a year.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your specific job?

Mr. RUBY. I was, I would say assistant manager. I supervised the other men and the servicemen.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t actually make the contacts with the taverns?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, I made some of those; yes, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the machines were solely music machines?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. No slot machines?

Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. No slot machines. This is one of the better rated companies in this field, very nice people.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay?

Mr. RUBY. I stayed with them about a year. Then my best friend’s brother, my best friend’s name is Mike Nemzin, his brother’s name is George Marcus, that is his name legally.

Mr. HUBERT. They have different names but the fact is they are brothers?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right. That is why I wanted to mention that. He owned——

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “he” who do you mean?

Mr. RUBY. George Marcus; I am now speaking of.

Mr. HUBERT. The brother of your best friend?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. In fact, he was instrumental in my getting the other job for Worldwide Music because he knew one of the—he was in the dry cleaning business, George Marcus has today one plant in Marion, Ind. and one plant in Benton Harbor, Mich., and has a brother-in-law running each one. And we had been friends for about 25 or 30 years, and he approached me with the idea of going into business with him in another cleaning plant if we could locate a good one. You know, buy a going business, of course, and I was very much interested.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Marcus?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; Marcus I am speaking of.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your best friend was his brother?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were friendly with him for 25 years?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir; yes. In fact, he originally helped me get started when I first came out of service. I had no money to speak of.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Marcus?

Mr. RUBY. Marcus, and he lent me $500, I think, to get started.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, go on and tell us what happened?

Mr. RUBY. And Marcus and I talked over the possibility of going into the cleaning business together, and he being so successful, I was very happy that he even, you know, came to me and was interested in my running the plant, because he is more or less a silent partner.

So, sure enough, we checked out a few plants and then we happened to hear of this plant in Detroit, Cobo Cleaners, that is the plant. It was originally owned by the mayor of Detroit. And we heard about this plant and we went to Detroit, checked that out and checked out the possibilities, and we decided it was a pretty good deal. And so we bought that as equal partners. And that was in 1961, October of 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you pay for it?

Mr. RUBY. We paid for it, for the real estate and the business, $120,000.

Mr. HUBERT. And you each put up half?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. Of course, we only paid so much down, you know. We didn’t pay the full price, of course.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is the business you are in now?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you run the operation?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; and he is more or less silent. He lives in Glenview, Ill., a suburb of Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. And as I understand it, he owns these other plants that you mentioned?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And runs them through——

Mr. RUBY. The brother-in-laws. But he gave the brother-in-laws 35 percent of each one.

Mr. HUBERT. I think for the record perhaps we had better state the names of those other companies and the cities and the names of the brothers-in-law.

Mr. RUBY. OK. The name of the plant that George Marcus and his brother-in-law owns in Marion, Ind., is called Modern Laundry and Dry Cleaners, and his brother-in-law’s name there is Harry Marks.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that his sister’s husband?

Mr. RUBY. Husband, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. RUBY. And the name of the plant in Benton Harbor, Mich., is called the American Laundry and Dry Cleaners, and the brother-in-law there who is married to George Marcus’ sister is Elwood Jacobs.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know those people, the two brothers-in-law?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes, you know, being close to my best friend for so many years, I was always close to the family as a whole.

Mr. HUBERT. But you have no interest in those plants?

Mr. RUBY. No, no.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have a 50-percent interest in the Cobo plant?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did we have some indication that there was a company or something, sort of & business enterprise called the Earl Ruby Co? Will you tell us about that?

Mr. RUBY. When I sold the Earl Products Co., I sold the whole Earl Products Co. and he was supposed to pay me—he gave me so much money down, about $20,000 down, I think—and he was supposed to pay me the balance out so much a year.