Chapter XXVII: Part 27

Well, after he paid so much, he paid me for about a year or so, he said he can’t pay me any more money, he wants to make a new deal on the balance of the money that he owed me. So we made a deal that he would only give me $10,000 more. He owed me about $30,000 or so. We settled for $10,000 in cash plus I would take over the camera manufacturing. We had a little camera we manufactured. He would give me the tools and dies of that business, and also the tools and dies to make a little nameplate that kids fasten on the back of their bicycles. So when I took that over, I had to have a company name to run it, and so I decided to call that Earl Ruby Co.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any associates in that company?

Mr. RUBY. No, no. And I since, last year I had to close that up. It was just not doing any——

Mr. HUBERT. That operation continued after you left Chicago?

Mr. RUBY. When I sold it to Oliff, you mean? Oh, yes; for awhile.

Mr. HUBERT. No, no; I mean the Earl Ruby Co?

Mr. RUBY. No. When I left Chicago, there was no Earl Ruby Co. It only became after he decided he couldn’t pay me the rest of the money, then I had to start all over again.

Mr. HUBERT. You were in Detroit at the time?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. I couldn’t use Earl Products because he owned that name. I sold him the name.

Mr. HUBERT. But the operation of the Earl Ruby Co. manufacturing the cameras and the bicycle plates?

Mr. RUBY. I moved it to Detroit.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, you moved it to Detroit?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you operated then out of Detroit?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, but——

Mr. HUBERT. So you were operating at that time two businesses?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The cleaning and the——

Mr. RUBY. Yes. Well, the other business I don’t think in all the time I had it, I don’t think I did $10,000 worth of business in the 2 years that I tried to run it. It just fizzled out and now there is nothing.

Mr. HUBERT. It folded when?

Mr. RUBY. I folded it at the end of the year.

Mr. HUBERT. Which year?

Mr. RUBY. At the end of 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. And you had run it about 2 years?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, about 2 years, I would say, and there was just no more sales. I tried to dispose of it or sell it, but I couldn’t even get a buyer, so I still own the tools and dies but there are no sales.

Mr. HUBERT. Those are just put in a warehouse, the tools and dies?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Hollebrandt?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. RUBY. He is the supervisor of our plant. Is that the one you mean?

Mr. HUBERT. I believe so. What is his first name?

Mr. RUBY. Abram.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he the supervisor of Cobo?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he become so?

Mr. RUBY. About a year ago, just about a year ago, a little over a year ago.

Mr. HUBERT. How did this relationship come about? Did you know him before?

Mr. RUBY. No. I had never heard of him before. When we came to Cobo Cleaners, we had a supervisor by the name of Charlie Comp, and then after my being there awhile, I could see that one of the reasons Cobo wanted to sell out was the supervisor. He just wasn’t running the plant efficiently. And so I talked to my partner about replacing him and we finally decided to replace him, and we started looking for a replacement. And I mentioned it to everyone I knew, and in the cleaning industry there is different types of cleaning processes, mostly concerned with the type of soap you use, and we were using, ours is what you call a solvent plant, and we were using—I can’t think of the name of the soap. Anyhow, a special soap. I just can’t think of the trade name.

And the salesman or distributor in our area for this soap is Vernon Brooks, and I talked to him about getting—asked him if he knew a good supervisor, and he said he would let me know. And then in a week or whatever time passed, he called me and says, “Yes, I have a good man in Rochester, New York.” And, “I think he might be interested.”

So I contacted him and we had him come to Detroit so we could talk to him and interview him, and then we wanted to see what type of a plant he was running there, so Marcus, my partner, and I flew to Rochester one day and Hollebrandt showed us through the plant he was running, and we liked him. You know, he is a pretty nice fellow. And he seemed to know his stuff. So we hired him. That is how we got to know him. Other than that, I had never seen or heard of him before.

Mr. HUBERT. How long was it between the time that you first contacted Hollebrandt and the time that he actually became the supervisor? What period of time elapsed?

Mr. RUBY. I would say a couple of months anyhow. It took a couple of months. Yes, it took a few months.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Oscar Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Oscar Robinson?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any person who lives at South Haven, Mich., particularly at an address 58 Lakeshore Drive?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes, I know those people.

Mr. HUBERT. In South Haven, Mich.?

Mr. RUBY. I know their name is Ruby. I didn’t know his last name. My in-laws own the cottage next door to them, 56 Lakeshore Drive, and so I used to go up there on weekends, but I didn’t know his last name was Oscar.

Mr. HUBERT. No, I didn’t say his last name is Oscar. I think it is either Ruby or Robinson. What did you know his last name to be?

Mr. RUBY. Ruby, the same as mine.

Mr. HUBERT. But he is not related to you?

Mr. RUBY. No, no, no.

Mr. HUBERT. And he had a cottage which is next door to——

Mr. RUBY. My in-laws.

Mr. HUBERT. Your wife’s——

Mr. RUBY. Family.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Harry C. Futterman?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, that is my wife’s brother-in-law. He is married to my wife’s sister.

Mr. HUBERT. What does he do for a living?

Mr. RUBY. He worked for the post office until he retired a few years ago, and now he works for a brother-in-law of his who is in the lumber business.

Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?

Mr. RUBY. He lives at 7209 Northeast Prairie, in Lincolnwood, Ill.

Mr. HUBERT. Lincoln?

Mr. RUBY. Wood.

Mr. HUBERT. Lincolnwood?

Mr. RUBY. A suburb of Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Colley Sullivan?

Mr. RUBY. Colley Sullivan?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. RUBY. No, no, it doesn’t register at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Dominick or Dominic Scorta or Siorta?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Anesi Umberto?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, I think that is the one.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about him.

Mr. RUBY. I am trying to think. I did business with—no, that is another name. I know a fellow by the name of Mario Anesi.

Mr. HUBERT. And who is he?

Mr. RUBY. He is the fellow that used to make all our tools and dies in Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. Tools and dies for the Earl Products?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, I thought that is who you were talking about. Anesi Umberto, no, I don’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a Mario Umberto?

Mr. RUBY. Maybe that is the same fellow. I know him by Mario Anesi.

Mr. HUBERT. A-n-e-s-i?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know how you spell his name. I am not even sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen or had any contact with this gentleman in the last year or so?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. In fact, he was just here, he was just in Detroit for the tool convention or whatever they call them, and he called me just to say hello, because he has tools and dies of mine in his place yet, old things, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was just in the last few weeks, I gather.

Mr. RUBY. Yes. That was about a month ago. That is all.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to that contact with him, when was the next previous contact?

Mr. RUBY. Well, he makes the camera shutters, camera shutter parts for me, and I saw him in Chicago a little more than a year ago. I stopped in to discuss changing—it is probably a year-and-a-half ago—changing the die for one of the parts.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any telephone conversations with him in that interval, during that period?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did.

Mr. HUBERT. What would it have been about?

Mr. RUBY. Only about tools and dies. In fact, I tried to sell him the tools and dies for the nameplate.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. RUBY. Right after I took it over from Mr. Oliff.

Mr. HUBERT. It would have been about a little over 2 years ago?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; and then I would have to talk to him once in awhile about ordering the parts, if I were in Chicago I would call him and tell him what I need or something like that. But I know him as Mario Anesi.

Mr. HUBERT. And you do know as far as your memory serves you, either a person called Anesi Umberto or a person called Mario Umberto?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anyone whose last name is Umberto, U-m-b-e-r-t-o?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anyone by the name of Kirk Bibul?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What about a person by the name of Elliott Schwartz?

Mr. RUBY. Elliott Schwartz, he is married to another sister of my wife.

Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?

Mr. RUBY. New York.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have occasion to contact him?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure. I see him, he comes in for events, marriages, bar mitzvahs and all that stuff. In fact, I wanted to call him last night because I am so close.

Mr. HUBERT. It is a social relationship, social and family?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. No business relationship?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I was going to have him manufacture the nameplates for me, when I couldn’t sell them to Mario Anesi, he told me business was bad up in New York, so I sent the tools and dies there, but we never used them, never got any sales, so the tools and dies for the nameplates are just there not being used at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Edward A. Cobo was the owner of the Cobo Cleaners prior to the time you bought it out?

Mr. RUBY. The junior, I bought it from the junior, his mother and his sister. I think Cobo himself had passed away several years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said he was mayor.

Mr. RUBY. His brother, Al Cobo, was the mayor, but Al and Edward Cobo owned Cobo Cleaners. The mayor owns half of it.

Mr. HUBERT. But when you bought it, the mayor had died?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And his interest had passed to his family, I take it?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; to probably, I don’t know but I think it probably passed to his brother and then his brother passed away and then the interest went to the brother’s wife and son and daughter, and that is who we bought it from.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Buddy Heard?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any contact with a company called the Anran Tool and Manufacturing Co.?

Mr. RUBY. Are you sure it is Anran and not Anson?

Mr. HUBERT. Maybe it is Anson.

Mr. RUBY. That is owned by Mario Anesi and his brother.

Mr. HUBERT. So that any contacts you would have had with that company was really what you were talking about a little while ago?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right. They made all the parts for us and tools and dies for, oh, 10 years or more.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know if you stated what Mario Anesi’s brother’s name was.

Mr. RUBY. One’s name is Burt, that is how I know him by, Burt, and he has another brother. I don’t even know his name.

Mr. HUBERT. Are they all in this company?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; now, Burt could possibly be Umberto, I don’t know, because Burt is an unusual name for Italian people.

Mr. HUBERT. And your statement is that your contacts in the last 2 years say with the Anesi’s or the Anson Tool and Manufacturing Company have been as you have stated in regard to the dies and the manufacture of shutters and so on?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the Triangle Manufacturing Co.? Have you had any contact with that company?

Mr. RUBY. Triangle? What do they make?

I once had a Triangle many years ago that made—I think it is Triangle—made a set of cutting dies for me. I don’t know if it is the same company.

Mr. HUBERT. Where are they located, do you know?

Mr. RUBY. In Chicago, I think. But I had very little—if I remember, it was one order. But there are so many Triangles. I even think many years ago I bought some cartons from a Triangle Carton Company, but you are saying manufacturing company. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. The Triangle Manufacturing Co. that I am thinking of is in Oshkosh, Wis.

Mr. RUBY. It don’t sound familiar at all. Does it say what they make—because in the years we were manufacturing we used to buy parts and things from all over the country. But it doesn’t seem to register with me at all, Oshkosh.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection of having made a telephone call to that company on November 1?

Mr. RUBY. What year?

Mr. HUBERT. 1963.

Mr. RUBY. Oh, then I think I know who that is. I think, I am not sure now, I think they make, what do you call it, bearings. I think they make bearings, and the reason I called them, if it is the right company, I am not even sure of that, is that my brother Jack wanted to make, had seen this twistboard, it is a little board with a bearing underneath it, and you stand on it and you learn to twist that way, and he, knowing that I had been in manufacturing and knew all about manufacturing, asked me if I could find out where to get this type of bearing. It was a usual, simple, very inexpensive type. So I don’t know how I got their name. I think I called somebody. I learned of somebody that was selling them or making them around Detroit, and I called them.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean making those bearings?

Mr. RUBY. Making the whole twistboard, and I think they referred me to Triangle, and I called them, if that is the correct company, and had them send me a sample and a quotation.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anything come of it?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What did Jack propose to do so far as you know?

Mr. RUBY. Well, he was going to, you know——

Mr. HUBERT. Manufacture it?

Mr. RUBY. Have somebody make it and distribute it.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that he suggested the name Triangle to you?

Mr. RUBY. It is possible. I am not sure. I am not sure where I got that name, because I think it was only one call I made, and then they said they would send me the sample, and that was it. I forgot all about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they send the sample?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; if that is the company, they sent the sample.

Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do with it?

Mr. RUBY. Nothing, because I then got the sample and saw what they wanted for it. I think they wanted 45 cents just for the bearing part, and then you had to make this board, and knowing something about manufacturing, Jack wanted to sell it for about $2 retail, so I told him if the bearing cost 45 cents and the top cost a quarter and you have got to put it in a box and package it, you can’t come out, because you have got almost 80 cents cost to manufacture it and you have got to give the jobbers 50 and 10 above, that means you get 90 cents. You can’t work on a dime gross profit. And so I discouraged him about getting in it, so that was the end of that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he attempt to interest you in getting into this business?

Mr. RUBY. No; he wanted to make it there in Dallas. He wanted to make it in Dallas. In fact, he said he was going over, he was going to have, I think, the Goodwill. I think they manufacture things at a very reasonable cost, and he said that is how he was going to cut corners. But I discouraged him anyhow. I couldn’t see it, and it was a good thing I did because I checked on the sales of the item in the Detroit area and it was a flop, anyhow.

Mr. HUBERT. Apparently this item wasn’t patented.

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you comment as to what you know about an organization called the Gilt Edge Associates, Finishing Corp., in New York City?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is owned by Elliott Schwartz and his brother.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that corporation? What do they do?

Mr. RUBY. They do finishing on greeting cards. Some of their work is called flocking, and they put that glittery substance on greeting cards and things of that sort, and they also do silk screen work.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was your interest in those products?

Mr. RUBY. That is my brother-in-law.

Mr. HUBERT. That is your brother-in-law?

Mr. RUBY. That is the same Elliott Schwartz that you brought up about. That is the company he owns. I mean that is my brother-in-law on the wife’s side.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know an organization or corporation, perhaps just a company, called the James Welch Co.?

Mr. RUBY. James Welch? No.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you comment on what knowledge you have of an organization called the Ipsilanti Buffing Co.

Mr. RUBY. Never heard of it.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the Public Vending Co.? Do you know of that organization?

Mr. RUBY. No. Are they in Detroit?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know.

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. It doesn’t register at all.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the Troy Plating Co.?

Mr. RUBY. When I was Earl Products, I used to have so many plating companies to do work for us. Is this a Chicago concern would you know?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know.

Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall that name.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any contact with an organization called the General Scientific Corp.?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, General Scientific? Yes. I think that is the company we used to buy lenses from for our camera, little glass lenses, if I am not mistaken.

Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the Troy Plating Co. in Chicago, do you recall having occasion to have called them from Detroit on October 21?

Mr. RUBY. Let me see, Troy Plating? What did I call them for? Yes, yes, yes; I know what it is. I think I know what it is now.

In our cleaning operation we have a liner, a copper liner. It is a large basket, very large, probably 30 inches in diameter and overall length of about 4 feet, and it was corroded and the corrosion was coming off on some of our cleaning, and I couldn’t seem to find anyone in Detroit to plate it. It was just an odd shape. And so I called, I think that is the reason I called Troy Plating, to see if they could do it. However, I finally located somebody in Detroit to plate it.

Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony is that that was the occasion for calling the Troy Co.

Mr. RUBY. I can’t think of any other reason.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the Dixie Seal and Stamp Co. in Atlanta?

Mr. RUBY. When I took over the nameplate business, that is back from Oliff, the fellow I had sold it to, Earl Products, and I received a few small orders for plates, nameplates, and it was foolish to set up my complete operation for just a few orders, and I knew that Dixie Seal and Stamp made a very similar item. So rather than my setting up the whole operation to make the few, I had them make it for me, and so I called them and talked to them on a few occasions, and they did make some for me.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the Berger Products Co.?

Mr. RUBY. Berger? Where are they located? That doesn’t strike a bell.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall that?

Mr. RUBY. No. I make so many calls it is hard to remember all of them. But that doesn’t strike a bell.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already mentioned your relationship with Mike Nemzin.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; one of my very close friends, and his brother is my partner.

Mr. HUBERT. Apparently you called him on November 14. Do you recall that conversation?

Mr. RUBY. November the 14th. I could have called him November 14.

Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?

Mr. RUBY. In Chicago. I think the reason I called then is because George, his brother, told me he was very sick.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you call him?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall. Probably at his place of business.

Mr. HUBERT. Does he have any connection or have any home or business at a place called Walled Lake, Mich.?

Mr. RUBY. Are you speaking of Mike Nemzin?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. No; not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anyone in Walled Lake, Mich.?

Mr. RUBY. No. We have customers there, but I don’t know them personally.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any calls to this place, Walled Lake, Mich.?

Mr. RUBY. No; but since we have customers there, I might have called and we make so many calls to any of our customers at any given time.

Mr. HUBERT. Would anybody else in your plant be making such calls?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. We have a girl that does practically nothing but call customers, for many different reasons, you know. Sometimes they send in a garment and there is a hole in it.

Mr. HUBERT. Is Walled Lake near Detroit?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; very close.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do have customers that come from that far?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure.

Mr. HUBERT. What contacts have you had with the Denver-Chicago Trucking Co. in Denver?

Mr. RUBY. Well, they are the people that shipped the tools and dies and the punch press to take the plates to my brother-in-law Schwartz in New York, and on route they dropped the press and broke it in half, and so I had many conversations with them before I could get a settlement out of them. So I called them several times.

Mr. HUBERT. What about a man by the name of Barney Rothenberg?

Mr. RUBY. What is his first name?

Mr. HUBERT. Barney.

Mr. RUBY. It doesn’t register with me.

Mr. HUBERT. Or Horace Settersfield or Dettersfield.

Mr. RUBY. Delderfield.

Mr. HUBERT. Delderfield?

Mr. RUBY. He is my landlord. I lease his home, or rent a home from him.

Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?

Mr. RUBY. He lives in California.

Mr. HUBERT. What business is he in?

Mr. RUBY. He is retired, as far as I know. In fact, I have never seen him. I rent through his agent, but I send my checks to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you have had occasion to call him?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that about and when was it approximately?

Mr. RUBY. Gee, this was right after I moved in there, last fall, probably September, around in there. When we first rented the place, we wanted to know if it was all right to decorate, and I think that is why I called him.

Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to—go ahead.

Mr. RUBY. I called him for another reason, also. Well, I had to call him and talk about the lease. See, I was taking over, subleasing from the people that were in there before me, so I think I talked to him once or twice.

Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to Barney Rothenberg, does it help you any if I suggest that he lives on Genessee Street in Pontiac, Mich.?

Mr. RUBY. No; now, we go Pontiac. Our trucks go to Pontiac. I don’t remember calling him.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be a possibility, then, that that is a customer?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about a man by the name of Sidney Jaffe, who lives in Seattle, Wash.?

Mr. RUBY. Sidney Jaffe?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Of any contact with a man by that name?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Henry Kenter?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anybody in the past mostly by the name of Chasin?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. The answer is no to Chasin. Do you know anybody in the Jaffe family?

Mr. RUBY. Did you say do I know anybody in the Jaffe family?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. In Chicago I do. Julie Jaffe.

Mr. HUBERT. That is a lady?

Mr. RUBY. No; a man. Julius, I think is the correct name. I really don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, about 20 years.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you some to know him?

Mr. RUBY. Well, first, he is in the advertising specialty supply business, and we used to do business together a little bit. And then I knew him before. He grew up in the same neighborhood.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what his father’s name was?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any sisters?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know a girl by the name of Charlotte Jaffe?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or Rosalyn Jaffe?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What about a man by the name of Berke, who married one of the Jaffe girls?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any person by the name of Pasol?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anyone who lives in Muncie, Ind.?

Mr. RUBY. Muncie? No; I don’t think I know anyone at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been there?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so; never.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if your brother Hyman Rubenstein was interested in Jack Ruby’s twistboard enterprise?

Mr. RUBY. All I know is that he sent him a sample.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if he attempted to get Hyman financially interested?

Mr. RUBY. That I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already said that he did not attempt to get you financially interested.

Mr. RUBY. No, no. All he wanted me to do was get him the best source for the different parts and he would assemble it in Dallas himself. I mean by that, he would have somebody do it for him.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you do know Ralph Paul, don’t you?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I met him in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long ago?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I first met him, I think it was, down there about 5 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion of your meeting him?

Mr. RUBY. Through Jack. Jack introduced us.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it just a social meeting or did you have any business with him?

Mr. RUBY. I didn’t have any business with him. No business was discussed.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever had any business dealings with him?

Mr. RUBY. No; I know Jack worked with him, but I really don’t know. At least I think they had business dealings between themselves, but I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any financial dealings with him?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to lend him any money at any time?

Mr. RUBY. No. [I remember that my brother was going into business with Ralph Paul and Jack was supposed to put in $6,000 which he did not have at the time so he asked me to send $6,000 to him or Ralph Paul, which I did, and I’m sure Ralph Paul endorsed the check but I haven’t located the check as yet. I don’t remember whether I sent the check to Jack or Ralph, except that they were supposed to pay the money back to me but never did. When they informed me that the club had gone broke and they had no money to pay me, I wrote the $6,000 off as a loss.]

Mr. HUBERT. Did he owe you any money at any time?

Mr. RUBY. Me?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. Ralph Paul?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I call your attention to the fact that in your 1960 income tax return you claimed a loss as a result of a worthless judgment note with reference to Ralph Paul in the sum of $6,000.

Mr. RUBY. That went through my company, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that. Did Ralph Paul do any business or come to be indebted?

Mr. RUBY. That was through the club. I sent money down to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Which club? The Sovereign or the Carousel?

Mr. RUBY. I think to organize the Sovereign Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you send the money to, and how much did you send?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall exactly. I think I sent more than one figure, than one amount, that is.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that transaction in general.

Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall. I would have to see—I don’t recall when I sent it because it is 4 or 5 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to get a judgment against Ralph Paul, that is to say to sue him?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Here is your return for 1960. It might refresh your memory.

Mr. RUBY. This was sent, I think, to organize the Sovereign Club, and within 6 months the corporation folded or whatever it was, I don’t recall exactly. And a new corporation was formed. I can’t think of the new name, because I was out of the picture then.

Mr. HUBERT. What I was trying to get at is, first of all, how you had a judgment, how you came to get a judgment against Ralph Paul in connection with the organization of the Sovereign Club.

Mr. RUBY. I sent the money down, but Jack, if I recall, asked me to send it.

Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we approach it in another way.

Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall the complete details on it.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you came to be financially interested, or at least to advance money to Jack in connection with a club, the organization of a club.

Mr. RUBY. He called me and told me he needed some money for a good deal club that was going to be organized or taken over or something. It was some other club before.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you then how much he needed?

Mr. RUBY. I think I sent, I am sure I sent this down, if it so states.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean $6,000?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was that to be, for the purchase of stock or a loan?

Mr. RUBY. I think I originally had stock in the corporation there, in the original Sovereign Club Corp., and I think now at that time, at that time Paul signed the note. I think this is how this——

Mr. HUBERT. You mean the note for the money that you sent down?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think something—I am not sure because it was handled more or less by my accountant. I am not positive how it was set up.

Mr. HUBERT. But I mean your accountant would not have handled the original sending of the money.

Mr. RUBY. I sent a check, I am quite sure I sent the check.

Mr. HUBERT. To organize the company?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was an investment or a loan, that is what I am trying to get at, or were there two separate transactions? You mentioned that Paul signed a note, and that would indicate that there was a loan made of some sort, you see.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you mentioned that you got some stock which would indicate that the money was for an investment rather than a loan, or perhaps a combination. And that is what I am trying to find out, what it really was.

Mr. RUBY. I am really not sure. I am really not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in a position at that time to advance that sort of money without investigating the possibility?

Mr. RUBY. Well, it was my brother.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever loaned him money before?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have got it back?

Mr. RUBY. No; once before I loaned him some money, several times I loaned him money that I didn’t get back.

Mr. HUBERT. Since he was in Dallas, you mean?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you never took any notes from him?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did several years before this, but I don’t recall all the details on that, either.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever pay you anything back on the various loans that he made from you?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How much would you say that he owes you now then?

Mr. RUBY. Altogether?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t mean including the money you may have expended since November 24th, but I mean up to that date.

Mr. RUBY. I would say altogether maybe as much as $15,000 that I sent him.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have never got anything in return for it?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever written off those loans as bad debts?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The income tax return which you hold in your hand there says it is a worthless judgment note. Do you recall that you actually filed the lawsuit against Paul and recovered a judgment which you could not collect?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think——

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall ever hiring any lawyers in Dallas or in the Dallas area for that purpose?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you clarify for us in anyway at all what this entry means?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I explained it to my accountant, and he said that is how you write it off, as far as I know.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you simply gave him the facts?

Mr. RUBY. The facts.

Mr. HUBERT. And he is the one who drew up the return?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. I think his name is on the front of this. It would have been Mr. ——

Mr. RUBY. Let me see. Harold Kaminsky.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t one of your sisters married——

Mr. RUBY. That is what I was going to say. He is my brother-in-law.

Mr. HUBERT. Which sister is this?

Mr. RUBY. Eileen.

Mr. HUBERT. She married Harold Kaminsky?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He is an accountant, is he?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he handled this for you?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You gave him these details?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you invested any money or loaned any money to Jack after 1960?

Mr. RUBY. After 1960?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did. I don’t remember the exact figure.

Mr. HUBERT. What was it in connection with, and about when did it occur?

Mr. RUBY. It must have been just about 1960.

Mr. HUBERT. It was in addition to the $6,000 that we have been talking about?

Mr. RUBY. I think that is the figure, but I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know that you would have been able to take a loss for a bad debt or loan made in 1960, that is to say on your return for 1960.

Mr. RUBY. I say I don’t recall. I don’t recall the exact—I would have to check my records and see when I sent it down.

Mr. HUBERT. By your records, you mean checkbooks and so forth?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of personal records do you have, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. We have a regular set of books.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you talking about the Cobo Cleaners?

Mr. RUBY. No; even before that.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you have a personal set of books?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure. I mean by regular bank stubs and check stubs and statements.

Mr. HUBERT. You still have retained those?

Mr. RUBY. I think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to make a telephone call or send a telegram to Havana, Cuba, in 1962, in April of 1962?

Mr. RUBY. April of 1962? The only reason I would have, Jack visited Cuba, Havana. I don’t know if it was in April, and I may have talked to him. But I don’t know, I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You are acquainted with Jack’s visit to Havana?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I know he went there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he go there once or more than once?

Mr. RUBY. As far as I know, once.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that that was in 1959?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. If it was in 1959, then I couldn’t have made any call or sent any wire. As far as I know, to Cuba, in 1962. I don’t remember any, anyhow.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anybody in Cuba?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you think of any reason at all why you might have sent a telegram or made a phone call to Cuba?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that some employee of yours might have?

Mr. RUBY. I am trying to think. I can’t think of anyone. I knew of the fellow that Jack went to visit there, a fellow by the name of McWillie.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know him?

Mr. RUBY. Jack told me about him.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever met him?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that in the early part of this year, specifically on January 6, you were interviewed by an Internal Revenue agent who asked you about some calls and so forth, and that he mentioned to you something about a call to Cuba, and that you told him that you thought it was a telegram?

Mr. RUBY. There should be some record of it if I did. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall a conversation with this Internal Revenue agent whereby he was questioning you concerning whether certain phone calls were properly deductible business expenses?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that in the course of that conversation he asked you about the Havana call and that you identified or thought that it was a telegram?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t see why. I don’t recall sending a telegram. I can’t think of why it would be in 1962. I can’t think of any reason for it.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that someone else could have called and charged it to the Cobo Cleaners account?

Mr. RUBY. I doubt it. I just can’t imagine who in 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. In April of 1962 you were with Cobo Cleaners in Detroit already?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. I can’t think of any reason.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any policy in your business about getting approval before long-distance calls were made, or how did you manage that aspect?

Mr. RUBY. No; I mean I don’t watch it that close because we have so many. Wouldn’t we know, or isn’t there somebody where we sent it so it could refresh my memory? I don’t think I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Pratkins, or possibly Praskins?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to Cuba yourself?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to that Welch Co. I mentioned a moment ago, would it help you if I stated that I think they are located in Cambridge, Mass., and it is the Welch Candy Co.? Do you recall anything about that?

Mr. RUBY. No; you know my brother Hy sells candy. How long ago does this go back? It doesn’t register with me at all.

Mr. HUBERT. This would have been in May of 1963.

Mr. RUBY. The name doesn’t register at all.

Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection that you yourself made any call to the James Welch Candy Co. in Cambridge, Mass.?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Would there be a possibility that someone could have used your phone and done that?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t think they would. The only possibility, if my brother Hy does business with them, the only possibility I can think of is that perhaps at that time he was visiting me and called them. But he would ask me first, I think.

[I do recall making a call to Welch Candy to ask them if they were to continue using my camera as a premium.]

Mr. HUBERT. Did he visit you during the year 1963?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time of the year?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it in the spring?

Mr. RUBY. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it about a year ago?

Mr. RUBY. He stopped in a couple of times. Yes; when he is in the territory he stops in.

Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we take a breather for a minute.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Griffin, who is working with me in this area, has some questions to ask you, so let’s get back on the record with the statement that this is a continuation of the deposition under the same authority that was used for the commencement of the deposition, and that you are still under the same oath that you were at the beginning, and may we have this understanding, that if we have any further recesses as I think we will, that the continuation thereafter will be under the same authority that we started off with, and that you will be under oath throughout? Do you agree to that?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to save some time. All right. Mr. Griffin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I would like to do at the outset, Mr. Ruby, is to go back over some of the names that Mr. Hubert had talked with you about before, and maybe I can ask some questions which might be able to refresh your recollection. He indicated to me that you didn’t recognize the name of Dominic Scorta. Now this would be somebody who lives or works in Chicago. Do you have any recollection of any association with anybody like that?

Mr. RUBY. Scorta, Scorta? Not at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert also indicated to me that you didn’t recognize the name of a man named Kirk Bibul?

Mr. RUBY. That is right; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any friends or acquaintances at Northwestern University or in Evanston?

Mr. RUBY. Gee, I lived in Chicago all my life. I have got any number of friends that went to school there but that name still doesn’t sound familiar.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are your children of college age?

Mr. RUBY. No; the oldest one is only 15.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anyone who has access to your house phone or business phone?

Mr. RUBY. The only thing I can think of, I don’t know, is he a music teacher?

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is what I am asking you. Do you know a music teacher?

Mr. RUBY. My wife was trying to contact a music teacher at Northwestern to send my children to him for piano lessons.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that? I mean, how long ago was this?

Mr. RUBY. It has got to be 3 years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is while you lived in Chicago?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is the only thing I can think of. Or if he has anything to do with music teaching there, that is the only reason I can think of.

Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we get this into the record. Could you give us the names of the people who would have had access to the telephones at the Cobo Cleaners, and who might have made long distance calls during the years 1962 and 1963?

Mr. RUBY. Any one of our employees could have. It would be very difficult. I could give you the list, but there is quite a few.

Mr. HUBERT. Would an employee make a long-distance call without your consent?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Who would be authorized to make it without clearing with you first, let’s put it that way?

Mr. RUBY. Anyone; anyone probably other than my wife or my partner that I can think of. That is about all.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean by that that the only ones who would be authorized without clearing it first would be your partner and your wife?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; for very long-distance calls. Now we call the suburbs as I told you, Pontiac, Walled Lake, or Mount Clemens. Those are 25¢ or 30¢ calls. Because we cover that area and our trucks go there, our call girl will be calling them any number of times during the month.

Mr. HUBERT. How many employees did you have during this period? I know it would vary, but an average?

Mr. RUBY. Probably 50.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the phones are in the office?

Mr. RUBY. Not all of them. We have one in the back end that anybody could use.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a pay phone?

Mr. RUBY. We have a pay phone and a company phone.

Mr. HUBERT. What are the numbers of each? What is the pay phone number?

Mr. RUBY. The pay phone I don’t know. They took that out. I don’t know what that is. I never use it.

Mr. HUBERT. It is still there?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the number of the regular?

Mr. RUBY. 860-3400.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?

Mr. RUBY. We have one in the marking room as we call it at the back end of the plant. We have four extensions in the front office where the girls are. We have an extension phone in my office.

Mr. HUBERT. Are those all on the same line, the same number?

Mr. RUBY. 0400, 1, 2, and 3.

Mr. HUBERT. There are really three numbers?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; then we have another phone, my private line which is 863—I have got to look it up myself. I never use it. I don’t even have my own number.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way. Who would have access to those phones other than the public phone?

Mr. RUBY. I am not through yet. We have some other phones. We do dry cleaning for J. L. Hudson Co. I don’t suppose you have heard of them. We have two outside phones that we use in conjunction with their business. Now you are saying 1962. When are you speaking of 1962, when? Because we didn’t take over Hudson’s until December of 1962, so those numbers wouldn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about 1963?

Mr. RUBY. 1963, yes; we had this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What are those numbers?

Mr. RUBY. 863-0566.

Mr. HUBERT. Who would have access to those office phones as it were?

Mr. RUBY. Well, most anybody in the office. We have about 10 office employees, and every once in a while some of the shop employees come up and use it.

Mr. HUBERT. To make long distance phone calls?

Mr. RUBY. No. As far as long distance, I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you checked the long distance records in any way?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t check them too carefully because we make so many. My partner lives out of town, and I always talk to maybe Miriam in the plant. We work together, we buy together sometimes. I talk to the Benton Harbor plant.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t spot check it to see that——

Mr. RUBY. No; I really don’t spot check it that closely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if we could get from Mr. Ruby, maybe if you would make a note of this, to provide us with a list of all of your office employees for the year 1963?

Mr. RUBY. You don’t know if this is a music teacher, do you? Probably my wife called.

Mr. HUBERT. We are speaking generally now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We are speaking generally. First of all, I am not addressing myself to Mr. Bibul. Right now we are just addressing ourselves to the general problem who else might have used your phone. Do you think you could provide us——

Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure; that is no problem.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With a list of all of the office employees which you had?

Mr. RUBY. Sure; that is no problem.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You can limit that to the year 1963.

Mr. RUBY. When you say provide a list, what do you want?

Mr. HUBERT. You want from April of 1962, don’t you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Give us the month of April of 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. During the lunch period if you have a chance you might be able to write that down too.

Mr. RUBY. You are talking of all office employees April 1962. Well, we had some changes, several of them, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then you can skip the remaining months and give us all of 1963.

Mr. RUBY. You just want their names. You don’t want any addresses or phone numbers or anything, just their names?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you can give us addresses also we would appreciate it.

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; I can take it off the employee payroll card. I can give you the whole thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Gives us names, addresses, and telephone numbers.

Mr. RUBY. Do you want me to ask my wife specifically about that call to North western University?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; because that may answer that one. What is that name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kirk Bibul.

Mr. RUBY. And that was in April 1962?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No.

Mr. RUBY. That would be before that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; that was after.

Mr. RUBY. Before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was the latter part of 1962 and the first part of 1963.

Mr. RUBY. Late 1962 and 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And early 1963. I believe also you indicated to Mr. Hubert that you didn’t recognize the name of the Ypsilanti Buffing Co. as anybody that you had dealt with.

Mr. HUBERT. Or maybe you did identify that one.

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think so. Now when was this about? Maybe this had to do with polishing or plating that same basket that we use in our dry cleaning operation. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Public Vending Corp?

Mr. RUBY. No; Public Vending, where are they located? Is that a long distance call, you say?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is a long distance call. When did you have this problem with the plating that required some work?

Mr. RUBY. Last year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of last year would that have been?

Mr. RUBY. No, excuse me; yes, the end of last year, that is right, the end of last year, and that is when I think I called Troy Plating in Chicago, to see if they could do that, and I may have called. I used the yellow pages. I tried to get information from anyone as to who could do it, so I may have called Ypsilanti, and they may have said no and I crossed it out of my mind immediately.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the General Scientific Corp. is not a corporation that you recognize?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; oh, yes. We bought lenses from them for the camera.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Berger Products?