Chapter XXXVII: Part 37

It has been somewhat uncertain as to whether this proceeding would go forward today, so that counsel for Mr. Ruby may wish to provide supplemental data by way of testimony, letter, affidavit or in whatever form you choose. The Commission will be glad to receive it and to weigh it in evaluating whatever these tests may disclose.

May the record further show that arrangements have been made to have Dr. Norman Beavers available, adjacent to the room where these proceedings will take place, in the event that there is any medical attention required for Mr. Ruby.

Mr. TONAHILL. Sheriff Decker gave me this phone number and said he would be standing by.

I would like to add to Mr. Specter’s comments that it is correct that numerous letters have been written by me to the Warren Commission requesting the polygraph test prior to the intervention of the psychiatrist, who felt that it would be a mistake.

At no time has the Warren Commission agreed and stated that they desired the polygraph test. The test, as I understand, has grown out of the agreement between Mr. Ruby and Mr. Chief Justice Earl Warren at the hearing that occurred here about 6 weeks ago.

I should like to say that I asked Sheriff Bill Decker to get in touch with Dr. William Beavers, and this was as a result of the conversation with Mr. Specter, and have Dr. William Beavers available so that he could be interrogated subsequent to the running of the polygraph test. Is that agreeable?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; that is agreeable, if you desire to do just that.

Mr. FOWLER. Further, let’s add this, Joe, that in whatever capacity or degree it would help to substantiate that in our opinion we believe that Jack Ruby is of unsound mind.

We would like to submit at a later date a report by Dr. Emanuel Tanay, a practicing psychiatrist in Detroit, Mich., a report by him based upon the examination of Jack Ruby, together with the report of Dr. West, and we would respectfully request that this matter be furnished to you at a later date. We have it available but not for today, and we would like to make it a part of this record, as suggested by counsel.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, the Commission will be glad to receive any evidence that you may wish to submit on all the questions which you have raised during the course of this proceeding.

Mr. TONAHILL. Whoever is in charge of his body ought not to be an expert on this thing [referring and indicating the polygraph machine].

Mr. FOWLER. You and I have done all we can do on it. I am not going to physically manhandle Jack Ruby.

Mr. TONAHILL. No; Jack Ruby is going to insist on doing it, and until he is declared a ward through an insanity proceedings, he is presumed to be able to exercise his own consent.

Mr. FOWLER. That’s right.

Mr. SPECTER. Let us discuss this off the record a moment.

(Discussion between Mr. Specter and Messrs. Tonahill and Fowler off the record regarding presence in the room of anyone able to operate a polygraph machine other than the FBI operator, Mr. Herndon.)

Mr. FOWLER. Let us put this into the record, that we would further object to anyone in the sheriff’s office being present. If the only valid reason is one of security, and I would like the record to reflect that we are within the confines of the Dallas County Jail, namely, on 7-M, which is a part of the Dallas County Jail, and that it would appear to me to be virtually escape proof, and as I understand previously when Mr. Warren was here, that he was allowed to talk with Jack Ruby by himself and without the presence of anyone from the sheriff’s department, which further leads me to believe that this is not for security purposes only, and we will object to the presence of anyone from the Dallas County Sheriff’s office.

Mr. SPECTER. In response to your objection. Mr. Fowler, for the record I will state that the Commission has requested that its preference be honored to have no one other than the FBI personnel administering the test, the court reporter, and me present, but that Sheriff Decker has taken the position that the prisoner, Jack Ruby, is his responsibility and that he must have someone on his staff present. Sheriff Decker did agree to substitute as that person the chief jailer, who has no knowledge of or experience with polygraph operation, so that the confidentiality of these proceedings is secure in my view.

Sheriff Decker’s position is not that Mr. Ruby may escape, but there may be an incident which would require having someone present, and the sheriff feels that someone from his staff ought to be present. In view of his position on that, it is my conclusion that such a proviso is justifiable under all the circumstances.

With respect to the conversations between the Chief Justice and Mr. Ruby, I was present at the time those conversations were held and they were held in the corner of the room in which we are now sitting, following the formal testimony of Mr. Ruby at a time when there were numerous people in another portion of this room in which we now sit, so that at no time was the Chief Justice alone with Mr. Ruby in any separate room. Mr. Tonahill was present at that time and I think can confirm my version.

Mr. TONAHILL. We were all present and the sheriff’s department men did leave, the personnel there—the sheriff and his deputies. He left him in the custody—we left Ruby’s body in charge of a Secret Service man.

Mr. SPECTER. Elmer Moore.

Mr. TONAHILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And at that time there were also present Mr. Tonahill, Mr. Rankin, Congressman Ford, Mr. Ball of the Commission’s staff, and I was present. At no time did the Chief Justice have any conversations privately with Mr. Ruby except that, at the very end, Mr. Ruby, the Chief Justice, and I were in a corner of the room conversing, and there were many others present at that time, and I think Mr. Tonahill can verify that.

Mr. TONAHILL. I was present.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, for the record, I want to state that Mr. Fowler has previously gone to discuss the matter with Mr. Ruby to determine what are Mr. Ruby’s desires in terms of having a polygraph examination, in view of the stated position of the Commission that it does not request such an examination, but has made such an examination available to Mr. Ruby if he wants one, pursuant to his request to have such an examination, made during the course of Commission proceedings on June 7, 1964, and the response by Chief Justice Warren that the Commission would offer him such a polygraph examination in response to his repeated requests.

Mr. FOWLER. Now, I would like to answer regarding the presence of a deputy sheriff here. I believe you advanced the theory that it was thought by Mr. Decker that there might be something that might occur during the giving of the polygraph tests that perhaps might disrupt things.

We further feel and respectfully request that if there is this feeling by the polygraph operator himself, that he will be conducting this test some 10 or 12 feet from a door, and if the sheriff is allowed at all, that he be allowed to stand at the door and any other exit that might be in the building, to not be able to view the chart or any part of it. This would be our request to that.

Mr. SPECTER. The conditions set forth in your request will be granted and the sheriff’s custodian will be present at the door so that he may not have access to the chart, to insure the confidential nature of these proceedings.

I think we are now ready to have Mr. Ruby come in, but before he comes in, let’s take a 5-minute recess.

Let the record show we are taking a 5-minute recess.

(Proceedings recessed and resumed as stated.)

Mr. ALEXANDER. I assume that once Jack is brought in, there will be complete silence.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Mr. Alexander, do you want to make your request for the record?

Mr ALEXANDER. Yes; please. At this time for and on behalf of the Dallas County, Tex., district attorney’s office, a request is made that the Warren Commission furnish the district attorney’s office a list of the questions asked Jack Ruby in this polygraph examination, and that a copy of the recording made by the polygraph machine be furnished the Dallas County district attorney’s office. We would also like a copy of the interpretation of the test, but whether or not we are given an interpretation of the test, we do want the aforementioned questions and actual tape of the polygraph machine.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, you may want to make a similar request as to the results.

Mr. FOWLER. In behalf of Jack Ruby and as attorney for Jack Ruby, I respectfully request that the Warren Commission deny the request of the Dallas district attorney’s office for the following reasons: Number One—that this is a matter of request that has been made by Mr. Ruby to the Warren Commission only, that if the district attorney’s office were furnished with these questions and answers and any other matters pertaining to the giving of this polygraph test, it might and could and very well effect the outcome of his case that is now on appeal before the court of criminal appeals here in the State of Texas, and we respectfully request that the request by the district attorney’s office be denied by the Warren Commission in all of their requests for this information.

On the other hand, we who represent Jack Ruby, respectfully request that we be furnished a copy of the questions that will be asked and that if some determination is made as to the answers and the outcome is ever made public, that we be furnished the information of the outcome of the tests.

Now, this is off the record.

(Statement by Mr. Fowler to Mr. Specter, off the record, requesting that Mr. Ruby be advised again when brought into the room for the test, the requests of his attorneys and family with respect to taking the test.)

Mr. SPECTER. In response to those two statements, no commitment can be made on behalf of the Commission anticipating the action of the Commission in advance of knowledge by the Commission of the results of the tests, and any additional evidence which may be submitted on the competency of Mr. Ruby which may aid the Commission in the evaluation of the results of the polygraph examination. The requests of Mr. Alexander and Mr. Fowler will be transmitted to the Commission and will be carefully studied by the Commission before any final decision is reached.

With respect to a list of questions, the procedure as previously outlined will permit all parties to be present when the questions are enumerated, so that the questions asked of Mr. Ruby will be a surprise to no one, but will be discussed in his presence and in the presence of representatives of both the district attorney’s office and Mr. Ruby’s defense counsel, so that there is no limitation to the taking of notes on the questions that may be asked.

With respect to the results, including a copy of the results themselves and a copy of the interpretation, no commitment can be made until the Commission has examined the results in this matter fully.

With respect to affecting the outcome of any subsequent proceedings, the Commission has exercised the greatest possible care in avoiding the influencing of the State court proceedings.

The action taken by the Commission has been designed to fulfill its function, while at the same time not interfering, or interfering to the minimal possible extent, with the State court proceedings. Now, before we get Mr. Ruby in, do you want to make a request for his doctor; and when we get Mr. Ruby in, we will make the other statement and then we will be able to go ahead, but I don’t think we want to go through any more with him present than we have to.

Mr. TONAHILL. Yes; it is requested that Dr. William Beavers, who has been retained by Jack Ruby’s family to observe and treat Jack Ruby, be present during the examination in order that he may observe and render any expression that he may have to offer that will be of benefit to the Commission as well as to Jack Ruby’s mental health condition, with special reference to interpreting the results of the polygraph tests, and as an aid and guide to the Commission in its interpretation of it as to what weight and value to give to it.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that request, Mr. Tonahill, go only for the time that everyone is present, or do you want him present, while the examination itself is going on?

Mr. TONAHILL. While the examination itself is going on—before and during the examinations—before the examination and during the actual examination, so that he can actually observe the actual examination.

Mr. SPECTER. In view of the expression of concern that has been made by Dr. Tanay, that request will be granted, since it is made by counsel for Mr. Ruby at this time.

The JAILER (on entering the room). He will be right up.

(Mr. Ruby entered the hearing room at 2:23 p.m.)

Mr. SPECTER. May the record now show that Mr. Ruby is present. Mr. Ruby, I am Arlen Specter. How are you today?

Mr. RUBY. Fine; how are you?

Mr. TONAHILL. Jack, that’s Mr. Specter of the Warren Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, why don’t you have a chair over here—we’ve been getting things set up, and let me introduce you to everybody so you will know who everybody is.

This is Miss Odell Oliver, who is the court reporter, and she will take your testimony just like we did before.

Miss OLIVER. How do you do, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. SPECTER. And I guess you know Dr. Beavers, and this is Mr. Wood. He is one of the polygraph operators with the FBI, and this is Mr. Herndon, one of the operators and with the FBI also. This is Mr. Alexander, and your name, sir?

The JAILER. Mr. Holman, E. L.

Mr. SPECTER. This is Mr. Holman.

Mr. RUBY. Can Fowler remain here after I start with the interrogation?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; Mr. Ruby. The procedure which we’ve discussed is this and this is subject to agreement of all sides, and we’ve been through it, but let me go through it with you. We are going to conduct the polygraph examination in a standard way, which involves a series of questions, about eight or nine in duration. Before we start with the series, the questions will be explained to you in advance so that you will know exactly what the questions are to be and you will know what the operator means by the questions. He will explain them so that there is no possibility of any confusion in terms of what the questions mean so they won’t surprise you. You will have full awareness of what is going to be asked.

At that time, everybody who is present in this room will be present when the questions are discussed in a general way. So that the record may be complete, let it show that Mr. Fowler is here and Mr. Tonahill is here, and Mr. Alexander is here, and Mr. Herndon and Mr. Wood are here. Dr. Beavers is here, and Chief Jailer E. L. Holman is here, Odell Oliver is here, and of course, I am here. Those are the only people who are here now and they are the only people who will be present when we explain each series of questions to you, so that you understand what is happening and what questions are going to be asked.

Now, scientifically, it’s preferable to have as few people possible at the time the examination is administered as we can, so for that purpose, we are trying to cut down the number as much as we can. We had originally thought that the only people present would be the two operators, the court reporter and I. Now we have Mr. Holman here on the custody question, and then your counsel requested especially that Dr. Beavers be present at the time of the administration of the tests. It is our desire to have only those people present, which would mean Mr. Alexander wouldn’t be here and Mr. Tonahill wouldn’t be here and Mr. Fowler wouldn’t be here at the time the test is administered.

Mr. RUBY. I would like to have Mr. Fowler here in preference of Dr. Beavers. May I request that?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; you may request that.

Mr. RUBY. And how soon will the answers be released, as soon as possible?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, the answers are going to be compiled by the FBI and then they’re going to go to the Commission, to Chief Justice Warren of the Commission, and I am not in a position to say to you when the answers will be released. That will be up to the Commission. They will have to study the results of the tests and make a decision on the time of release of the tests. Everything is up to them as to whether they will be released, what the release will be, and when it will be made.

I want to say preliminarily before we start, that the Commission has not requested the test, but it is responding to the request which was made on your behalf by letter, before the Chief Justice questioned you on June 7.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. You requested then that a test be given.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. We want it to be perfectly plain for the record that the Commission isn’t pushing this matter, but it’s only in response to your request, and that you have learned counsel here who are representing you, and you are aware of that. We want to make it pointed and clear that anything you say could be used against you, and it is possible for adverse or unfavorable inferences to be drawn. Whenever a defendant who is involved in a criminal proceeding says anything, anything he says could be held against him.

I know Mr. Fowler and Mr. Tonahill have advised you of that and that has been brought to your attention, but this record should show that we called it to your attention as forcefully and as clearly as we could, so that you would understand what we are doing here.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Mr. Specter; let me explain one thing. Under Texas law, nothing that Jack says here could be used against him in Texas.

Mr. RUBY. Bill, I’m not quarreling with that, and I know you certainly are not going to help me, I know that, but I want to get a copy to the chief as soon as I can, Chief Holman over there.

Mr. SPECTER. You would like to do what, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. To have the report as soon as the results are analyzed.

Mr. SPECTER. That, as I say, is up to the Commission, but you understand what I have said to you here?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And under those circumstances do you continue to request that such an examination be given you?

Mr. RUBY. Yes: any questions you want to ask, anything pertaining to this—I will answer anything without reluctance. There’s no punches to be pulled. I want to answer anything and everything.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, I think, wants to make a statement for the record too.

Mr. RUBY. In fact, Bill, you can stay here If you want to.

Mr. FOWLER. Jack: let me ask you this: A little while ago I came up into the jail cell and talked with you, is that correct?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. FOWLER. And at that time I advised you that the Warren Commission people were here at your request to give you a polygraph test?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. FOWLER. I also showed you a letter from Mr. Gordon Shanklin of the FBI here in Dallas, that he had received requests that were submitted to him by Mr. Sol Dann, who is the legal advisor to your family?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. FOWLER. And that certain requests were made there, No. 1, that the tests would be given in the presence of Dr. Tanay, with no outsiders present, with particular reference to anyone from the district attorney’s office or the sheriff’s office, and further, that it would have to be assured that the results of the tests would be held confidential by the Commission, and that under no circumstances made available to the district attorney or the press. Further, that written authority for such examination be obtained from Mr. Earl Ruby. Now, I have explained this to you, have I not?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; can I change that now?

Mr. FOWLER. Well, let me go on further, Jack, and as your attorney of record, at that time I advised that you not take nor submit to this polygraph test.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. FOWLER. And at this time, as your attorney of record, I advise you in the presence of these gentlemen and Commission, these people representing the Commission, that you will be doing so against the advice of your counsel.

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. FOWLER. And against the advice and wishes of your family.

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. FOWLER. Now, do you still at this time wish to take the tests?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; and I would also like to add that, if I have a right to say this—I want it be made immediately that the district attorney’s office should receive whatever is necessary in regard to the answers to the district attorney, and as I once wrote to District Attorney Henry Wade, that I didn’t want to publicize it, but if possible they may—I would prefer that naturally, but at that time it was so easy to get a lie detector test, I wrote to Henry Wade; that it is not for publicity purposes but only for authenticity and the truth. So, I agree with everything except that if I may supersede the attorney and say I’m not concerned about withholding anything. I want it to be released immediately to all parties concerned.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, your request on that, Mr. Ruby, will be transmitted to the Commission and they will consider that very carefully in reaching whatever conclusion they do about releasing it.

Mr. RUBY. I want to supersede the attorney, Mr. Dann, in stating that I want everything to come out immediately, as soon as possible, and whoever wants to know the results—what the results are—I want it to be known, regardless of which way it turns.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, you want Mr. Fowler to remain with you during the course of the examination?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. In view of Mr. Ruby’s request, it is my view that it ought to be honored and that the group is of such a size now that it ought to remain as it is constituted at the present time for both sessions.

We have done our best to limit it, but since it is a legitimate request here to include Mr. Fowler, we will sit in this group during all portions of the test.

Mr. Ruby has indicated that he has no objection to having Mr. Alexander here, and if one side is here, the other may be.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Mr. Specter, if it will help the ultimate in the tests, I have no objection to leaving the room, and perhaps Mr. Tonahill, I think, could very well leave, or if Jack has no objections and perhaps wants us here, we will stay.

Mr. SPECTER. I am advised by Mr. Herndon that the technical considerations are not persuasive as to one or two more people, with this many present, so that if it’s acceptable to all parties, specifically Mr. Ruby, we will just proceed with the group that’s presently here during all portions, the explanatory portion to Mr. Ruby and the actual testing itself.

Is that agreeable, gentlemen? Is that agreeable with you, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Well——

Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let me make this request. I don’t think Bill can read a polygraph test, but I would feel better as your attorney if Mr. Alexander were not present.

Mr. RUBY. I don’t mind everyone remaining here.

Mr. FOWLER. Well, of course, again—let me advise you that if Mr. Alexander remains—let me advise you of your rights—that if Mr. Alexander remains, he is a member of the district attorney’s staff, the answers to these questions could be used against you at some later date, if they are adverse to your rights, and as your attorney, I advise you that it would be my suggestion to you and request to you that Mr. Alexander not be allowed to remain.

Mr. RUBY (addressing Mr. Alexander). Will you object?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Not at all, Jack.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. If Mr. Alexander is willing to abide by your request, Mr. Ruby, then your request will govern as far as the proceeding is concerned.

Mr. FOWLER. Now, Mr. Alexander and I—when it comes to me representing you or any other client—I represent one client and he represents the other. He, in my opinion, is a perfect gentleman, but in the courtroom he is a perfect prosecutor, and I like to be as near a perfect defense lawyer as I can, and I believe that by allowing him to stay here——

Mr. RUBY. No, Fowler——

Mr. FOWLER. Well, I’m thinking of you now. I’m asking you to do this, and again, this is entirely up to you, so it’s your decision. I think I have fully explained to you the reason why we would not want him here.

Mr. RUBY. Now, I’ve got the monkey on my back now.

Mr. FOWLER. Well, you’ve got more than a monkey on your back, Jack. This is your decision.

(Conference between Mr. Fowler and Mr. Ruby out of the hearing of this reporter and others in the room.)

Mr. RUBY. Well, whatever my attorney suggests, I guess I will have to follow through.

Mr. SPECTER. Your request then is that Mr. Alexander not be present?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. ALEXANDER. That will be fine.

Mr. SPECTER. If it is all right with you, we will proceed on that basis, but of course, that will go only for the time the test is actually being administered to you.

Mr. FOWLER. That’s right.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Bell Herndon will now start to explain the proceedings to you. He is the operator of the polygraph, the principal operator here, Mr. Ruby. As I explained to you, Mr. Herndon and Mr. Wood, are joint operators for the FBI on the polygraph or lie detector test and Mr. Herndon will take over now to explain just how it’s going to work.

Mr. HERNDON. Thank you. Mr. Ruby, first of all, I want to show you my credentials so you will know that I am a special agent and I am from the FBI laboratory in Washington, D.C. (Exhibited instruments to Mr. Ruby.)

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Perhaps to set the record straight, Mr. Specter, I might mention that my colleague, Special Agent Wood, is not actually a polygraph examiner, but he is here to assist me in this examination. Is that all right?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, that’s fine to specify that exact status.

Mr. HERNDON. He is here to assist me and to help me in the interrogation of this gentleman.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, before you start on the questioning, we will want to put Mr. Ruby under oath, so pause at that point, but proceed now to explain what is going to happen.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, actually prior to any polygraph examination which the Federal Bureau of Investigation gives to anyone, we have a consent form that I want to read to you, and as I want to remind you, of course, you have been advised of your rights, and there is no sense of my going over it again, but I want to remind you that your counsel and your attorneys are here.

I will now read to you this consent form that we use as a standard procedure on this type of examination.

“Consent to Interview with Polygraph. I, Jack L. Ruby”—I believe that’s the way you sign your name?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “I, Jack L. Ruby, consent freely and voluntarily to be interviewed by special agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which I also know as the FBI, in connection with the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy investigation. I agree to the use of the polygraph or so-called lie detector during this interview or any part of it, and I am willing to be present at the time and place of interview for such time as is necessary to complete the interview.

“No threats or promises of any kind have been made to me to obtain my consent to this interview.”

Now, I can let you read that if you would like or your attorney might like to read it.

Mr. RUBY. That’s perfectly all right.

Mr. HERNDON. If it’s agreeable with you, I would appreciate it if you would sign it, Mr. Ruby, if that’s agreeable with your counsel?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. And Mr. Wood and I will witness that.

Mr. RUBY. Do you want it “Jack Ruby” or “Jack L. Ruby”?

Mr. HERNDON. You sign it as you usually sign, but do you want to read it any further, sir?

Mr. RUBY. I’ll just sign it.

(Mr. Ruby at this time signed the instrument referred to, which was thereafter signed by witnesses Special Agents Herndon and Wood.)

Mr. RUBY. Did you get your pants sewed up, Joe?

Mr. TONAHILL. It went through to my leg.

Mr. RUBY. That was a pretty rough brawl we had, wasn’t it, Joe?

Mr. TONAHILL. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. Joe, I’d appreciate it if you weren’t in the room. Can I ask you to leave, Joe?

Mr. TONAHILL. I’ll be glad to leave, if you want me to, Jack.

Mr. RUBY. As a matter of fact, I prefer Bill Alexander to you, you’re supposed to be my friend.

Mr. TONAHILL. Let the record show that Mr. Ruby says he prefers Bill Alexander being here during this investigation, who is the assistant district attorney who asked that a jury give him the death sentence, to myself, who asked the jury to acquit him, his attorney.

Mr. HERNDON. May we proceed?

Mr. SPECTER. Please do, Mr. Herndon.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, as you know, we have a doctor here, and before we begin anything, I want you to try to relax. I realize that there is some tension here, and before we proceed any further, I want to ask you very generally, how do you feel today, right now, specifically speaking?

Mr. RUBY. Very good, except—may I be very honest?

Mr. HERNDON. Of course.

Mr. RUBY. What is the preference of the doctor being here? Is he supposed to be my doctor, I mean Dr. Beavers?

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Specter, do you want to answer that?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; Mr. Ruby, he is here at the request of Mr. Tonahill, and I believe concurred in, by your chief counsel, Mr. Fowler.

Mr. HERNDON. The reason I asked you about your health, Mr. Ruby, obviously I don’t want to proceed with this interrogation of the polygraph type when you obviously may not feel well physically today. I wouldn’t want to subject you to the examination unless you felt well enough to take it, and I will ask you some very general questions about your health in regard to your history in that regard.

Have you every had any respiratory diseases or illnesses such as asthma or trouble with breathing, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. None whatever.

Mr. HERNDON. Any sinus condition or trouble?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Have you ever had any heart ailments?

Mr. RUBY. No, sir.

Mr. HERNDON. No heart trouble to your knowledge.

Mr. RUBY. [No response.]

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, have you had any medication of any type whatsoever today, such as tranquilizers, aspirin, any drugs at all today?

Mr. RUBY. None whatsoever.

Mr. HERNDON. While you’ve been here in custody, have you been under any medication?

Mr. RUBY. None whatever.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, at this time I shall administer the oath to Mr. Ruby.

Mr. RUBY. You want me to stand up?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; if you would please. As assistant counsel, I have the authority under the law to administer an oath to you for proceedings in the nature of depositions.

Do you solemnly swear that the answers and information you shall give in this proceeding before the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. RUBY. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Have the answers you have heretofore given in response to the informal questions already asked of you been the truth, sir?

Mr. RUBY. Repeat that again?

Mr. SPECTER. Have the answers which you have already given in response to the informal questions put to you by Mr. Herndon and others here, are they all true?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, about my health—are all true—yes.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, Mr. Herndon, will you proceed.

Mr. HERNDON. Yes. Thank you.

I understand, Mr. Ruby, that you have had your lunch today, is that correct? I want to make sure you have had a chance to eat.

Mr. RUBY. Yes, I did.

Mr. HERNDON. When did you eat, how long ago?

Mr. RUBY. I would guess approximately 12:30.

Mr. HERNDON. You’ve had no digestive problems while you’ve been here?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Have you had any coffee today—these are questions that will help us later on?

Mr. RUBY. One early in the morning.

Mr. HERNDON. Early in the morning?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Did you have more than one cup?

Mr. RUBY. One and a half cups.

Mr. HERNDON. That’s your usual amount of coffee you have?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Did you have any coffee at lunch, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. No, I did not.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, Mr. Ruby, have you ever had a——

Mr. RUBY. The reason why I say this, there was some newspaper items recently that brought up the fact that I was of unsound mind. Do I sound that way to you at the present time?

Mr. HERNDON. I don’t feel that I am qualified at this time to make any statement in that regard. I’m sure you would understand that that is something you can’t give in a moment’s notice.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Would you care to sit over here, Mr. Ruby, and I will further explain the test to you.

Mr. RUBY. Surely.

(At this time Mr. Ruby conferred with Mr. Fowler out of the hearing of this reporter and others in the room.)

Mr. RUBY. All right.

(At this time Mr. Ruby seated himself in the polygraph test chair.)

Mr. HERNDON. This is a polygraph chair. The reason it is so constructed, we want to take advantage of these high arms [indicating arms on the polygraph chair] so that we can get a better tracing, and very frankly, Mr. Ruby, I want to give you as best an examination as I can. So, it’s going to take a little time and I want you to relax as best you can. I realize you might be a little nervous, and I will certainly take that into consideration. Let me just briefly, Mr. Ruby, tell you about the polygraph examination and what we’re going to do today. I want to proceed by hooking up some of these pieces of equipment and briefly tell you what it is. Now, may I ask you to remove the material you have in your pocket, sir, and you might want to give it to your counsel.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Ruby has removed all the objects from his upper left-hand pocket.

(After removing objects mentioned, Mr. Ruby handed the same to Mr. Fowler.)

Mr. HERNDON. I gather from looking at your overalls that you don’t have any restrictive garments or belts or anything underneath on you which would hinder you or your relaxation?

Mr. RUBY. No, sir.

Mr. HERNDON. You are very comfortable?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Very fine, Mr. Ruby. Now, Mr. Ruby, there are two ways I can do this. I can do two things—I can either go ahead and put this equipment on you right now and describe briefly how it’s going to work, or if you want, I can go over these first series of questions and give you some instructions, and then put the equipment on. Which do you prefer?

Mr. RUBY. Which is the most effective way to get what you want?

Mr. HERNDON. Well, I think in view of the fact that we will have some discussion here, I want to make sure that you perfectly understand these questions, I will go ahead and give you some basic instructions about how these questions are going to be asked and how I want you to answer them.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. And then later on, as I hook you up, I will briefly describe what this equipment is going to do.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. The polygraph examination will entail, as Mr. Specter indicated, just approximately 8 to 9 questions, Mr. Ruby, in what we call a series. Now, I’m going to go over these questions with you right now very carefully. I want to make sure that the way I have them phrased is in such a way that you understand perfectly what I mean by them. We will discuss the question and you may if you want to, even answer the question at this time.

Mr. RUBY. I would appreciate it myself.

Mr. HERNDON. In other words, I’m going to tell you what the question is going to be and you shall feel free to answer it “Yes” or “No.”

Mr. FOWLER. Excuse me, sir.

Mr. HERNDON. Certainly.

Mr. FOWLER. At this time, Jack, I request that in view of the fact that you’re not hooked up, that you do not answer the question and reserve those until such time as you will be on the machine.

Mr. RUBY. That’s fine.

Mr. HERNDON. Then, we will just discuss the questions.

Mr. RUBY. Do it to your advantage, may I add.

Mr. HERNDON. I generally prefer in my practice with the polygraph to have the gentleman answer the question so that he knows he has already answered it, and as a matter of record, he knows that that question is coming along.

Mr. RUBY. Please let me do it, will you? [Addressing Mr. Fowler.]

Mr. FOWLER (no response).

Mr. HERNDON. I will bow to whatever Mr. Specter or counsel wants to do in this regard.

Mr. RUBY. Fowler, I hate to dispute with you, but let me do it this way?

Mr. FOWLER. Well, Jack, again, Mr. Alexander is here and again I tell you this—that the answers to some of these questions could be absolutely very detrimental to you.

Mr. RUBY. They can’t be.

Mr. FOWLER. I’m talking about from a legal standpoint. Now, morally, I know how you feel and you want to do the best you can for the Commission.

Mr. RUBY. I will.

Mr. FOWLER. But by the same token, this gentleman over here [referring to Mr. Alexander] represents the State, who at this time is not representing you. Now, if we could allow Mr. Alexander to have the benefit of the nature of the questions, with the exception of the answers—if this is what Jack wants—but I do not want Mr. Alexander to have the benefit of the answers.

Mr. SPECTER. The test may be conducted either way. As Mr. Herndon has explained, he has a slight preference to have the answers, but the ultimate decision on that is up to Mr. Ruby and his counsel. The Commission will proceed in either manner.

Mr. RUBY. It’s unfortunate that my attorney, Mr. Fowler, don’t see as I do. I would like to give every cooperation without the slightest fraction of interference. That’s why I requested that. You won’t let me do it that way, huh, Fowler?

Mr. FOWLER. I’m requesting that you do not, Jack.

Mr. HERNDON. It will be no problem.

(Addressing the court reporter.) Do you have any problem hearing?

COURT REPORTER. If Mr. Ruby would talk just a little bit louder it would be fine.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, I have placed all these questions in a form so that they are very short and concise and can be answered only by “Yes” or “No,” and that’s the way we have to ask a question during a polygraph examination, but I’ll go over them with you and give you an idea of what they’re going to be. During the normal series, I’m going to ask several questions, of course, which are pertinent to the Commission’s investigation, but I will also ask you several questions which more or less just deal with your identity, your background and your name, so you will have two types of questions that I will ask. Now, the first question I’m going to ask you under series 1, which is rather pertinent, and I want you to know that I’m going to ask it, and I’m going to phrase it as simply as I can.

“Did you know Oswald before November 22, 1963?”

Now, what I mean by “know” is did you have any personal acquaintance of this individual, any personal acquaintance? Have you ever seen him, did you have any conversation with him? In other words, as you would say, “Well, I know that person.”

Mr. RUBY. Should I answer that?

Mr. FOWLER. Not now, Jack.

Mr. HERNDON. That question will be asked or repeated, and so you and I will understand what we want, I’ll repeat it. “Did you know Oswald before November 22, 1963?”

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. HERNDON. Another question that I will ask in series 1, after I get the instrument adjusted, and it will be short and simple and answerable only by “Yes” or “No.”

“Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?”

Do you understand that question?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; it is very clear.

Mr. HERNDON. I tried to make them as short as possible and as clear as possible. Again, I’m going to ask you just as a matter of format here, “Did you take any medication this morning?” You have already answered that question, but that will be one of the questions I will ask you. I’m also going to ask on series 1, just to give you a little time to relax here, some of these rather simple questions such as: “Did you voluntarily request this test?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. You have already indicated your answer to that. And, I will ask a rather obvious question as a matter of identity, “Is your first name Jack? Is your last name Ruby?” These types of questions will be asked and I want to make sure I cover each and every one. I’m going to ask you, “Do you use the middle name ‘Leon’?” I understand you do; is that correct?

Mr. RUBY. No; very rarely, very rarely.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, you can answer that as you see fit, when I ask it on the test. I will ask you this question, and I want to ask this as a matter of record for me because I interview a lot of people: “Have you ever been arrested?” Now, what I mean in this regard, and I’ll probably change that phraseology to “Have you ever been arrested before? Prior to the shooting, have you ever been arrested?” Now, what I mean by “arrested,” Mr. Ruby, is were you ever actually placed under arrest and brought before some type of magistrate and charged with any crime. That question will also be on the first examination. Those are the questions I’m going to ask you. Do you have any questions about them, sir? Are they clear and concise to you?

Mr. RUBY. When you speak of the last question about a crime, I’ve never been involved in a crime, so if you’ve been arrested for selling beer after hours, does that qualify as an answer too?

Mr. HERNDON. Well, what I mean by “arrested” is if you were formally charged with something?

Mr. RUBY. Like a felony?

Mr. HERNDON. Well, any type of a formal arrest, wherein you actually were arrested and charged before a magistrate, of offending a law that’s on the record, either of a community, a city, or the State.

Mr. RUBY. You don’t necessarily have to have been found guilty or anything, just the point of being arrested, is that right?

Mr. HERNDON. Now, let me inject this, Mr. Ruby. If these questions when I ask them, if you have something in doubt in your mind of how to answer it “Yes” or “No,” just refrain from answering it, and we’ll go back after the test and discuss it.

Mr. RUBY. Very well.

Mr. HERNDON. In other words, I want you to be able to freely and truthfully say “Yes” or “No” to these questions. If one of them leaves any area of doubt in your mind and you are hesitant to answer it, feel free not to say anything, and we will just proceed, and after I stop the instrument, I will then go over that question with you. All right, sir?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, I’ll just briefly hook up the instrument and I’ll probably run it for a little while just to get it adjusted to you, and inasmuch as you’ve never had a polygraph before, I will explain the instrument’s parts to you. You can see here, Mr. Ruby, I have a rubber tube and I’m going to place that around your chest, sir. This is what we call the pneumograph and that will accurately record you respiratory pattern as you inhale and exhale. Would you be kind enough to raise your arms, sir?

Mr. RUBY (complied with request of Mr. Herndon).

(Reporter’s note: 2:58 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. Now, as you can see, as you inhale the tube stretches, and as you exhale it decreases in size and I will have a tracing of it on the polygraph.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. During the examination and as we run the test, I would appreciate it if you would sit perfectly relaxed, rather straight in the chair, with both of your feet flat on the floor. Now, that will record, during the interview, the tracing of your breathing, and I want you for this reason to breathe perfectly normal and perfectly relaxed. Now, the next thing I want to put on will be on your hand and I’ll put it on your right hand here. I notice you have one finger cut off on that hand. What happened there, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, running a nightclub you get involved in various altercations.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, this next component that I want you to see will be what we call the Galvanic Skin Response, GSR. I’m going to place these on your fingers, and actually all this simply does, through these instruments and the electronic processes, is to record any variance in the electrical conductivity or the resistance of your skin. It’s helpful to me in this examination. Your hands are very good. They are not sweating a bit. Is that too tight?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Is it uncomfortable?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby. Now, neither one of these two components will you feel at all. That will be no problem at all.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, the next component that I will put on your left arm, because it’s closer to your heart, and this is the cardiograph cuff, and this is going to give me an accurate tracing of any relative changes in your blood pressure. These will just be relative changes. I won’t be able to necessarily know what your blood pressure is. I will have relative blood pressure changes, and I will also have on a chart a change in any heartbeat or heart rate you might have.

Now, I am going to record all these physiological responses as we discuss the questions, and as you answer them I will have an indication of what is taking place physiologically, what is going on in your physical system, and which will assist me in interpreting whether or not you may be deceiving with regard to the question.

Mr. RUBY. What is your name, please, sir?

Mr. WOOD. Wood. I’m with the FBI.

Mr. RUBY. Where is Shanklin, I thought he was supposed to be here?

Mr. WOOD. He is in town but he is not here.

Mr. RUBY. Isn’t Mr. Shanklin the chief?

Mr. HERNDON. Do you want to relax your arm, Mr. Ruby? Now, do you have any questions about what I’ve done so far, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. No. Do you want me to relate my story to you now?

Mr. HERNDON. No; I want you to sit perfectly still. There will be no conversation, and I’m going to get the instrument adjusted to you. That will take only a few minutes, so just sit and try not to move. I’m not going to ask you any questions at this time. I just want to adjust the machine to you.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, have you now covered all the preliminaries up to the point of asking the questions?

Mr. HERNDON. Just about. I will probably repeat some basic instructions for Mr. Ruby just before we start asking him the questions.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, then I think those who are going to leave should leave now so that we are ready to go as soon as your instrument is in tune.

May the record show that Mr. Alexander has left the room.

Mr. FOWLER. Jack, do you have any objections to Mr. Tonahill being here?

Mr. RUBY. If Tonahill is going to be here—I don’t believe he’s—I know Bill Alexander is my friend, so he can stay, but Joe is supposed to be my friend.

Mr. FOWLER. Well, we’re not putting it on that basis, Jack. This is just purely personal.

Mr. RUBY. Just let me tell you this, Fowler. I have nothing to gain by Joe being here, because—I have nothing to gain.

Mr. FOWLER. All right, all right. Then, we will ask Joe and Mr. Alexander to step out.

Mr. RUBY. You still want Alexander to step out?

Mr. FOWLER. I certainly think so, Jack.

Mr. RUBY (addressing Mr. Alexander who was standing in the doorway to the examining room). Now, Bill, don’t say I didn’t request you, now?

Mr. ALEXANDER. I know it, Jack.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have just gone out of the room.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, it will take me a few moments to get this adjusted. If you desire to talk to Mr. Fowler, if you can sit still and talk it will be all right.

(Conference at this time between Mr. Fowler and Mr. Ruby out of the hearing of the court reporter and others in the room.)

Mr. HERNDON. Do you want to sit still now, Mr. Ruby. I’m not going to ask you any questions. I just want to get everything adjusted at this time. You will hear a few scratching noises on the paper.

Now, will you take a deep breath, Mr. Ruby, and then relax, sir?

Mr. RUBY (complied with request of Mr. Herndon).

Mr. HERNDON. Now, just breathe normally.

Now, if everyone will just be quiet for a few moments. There will be no questions asked. I just want to get the instrument adjusted.

(Reporter’s note: 3:05 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON (snapped his fingers twice). I made that noise purposely, Mr. Ruby. Now, I’m going to let you get the feel of that cuff as I inflate it, and there will be a little bit of pressure put against your arm. You’ve had your blood pressure taken by a doctor, I’m sure?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. HERNDON. You recall that. It will be the same feeling and I will have to leave it on just for a matter of a few moments, and if you will sit perfectly still and put your feet flat on the floor and look straight ahead.

I will now apply a little bit of pressure on that arm. You probably feel a little pressure. All right, sir?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. From time to time I may come over and raise and lower your arm to make sure it’s perfectly relaxed.

Mr. RUBY. That’s all right.

Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel your pulse beat?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.