Chapter XXVIII: Part 28

Mr. RUBY. That don’t register with me. What city? That isn’t in Cleveland, is it, by chance, because I just called Berger Products I think Monday, but that wouldn’t be on there. That is this Monday. See, we buy different articles from different parts of the country, and it is hard to remember each one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these purchases in connection with your drycleaning business or some other business?

Mr. RUBY. Which, Troy? That was for the drycleaning. The lens, that was for my camera.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you asked him, Mr. Hubert, about what percentage of his time is spent with——

Mr. HUBERT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us some idea what percentage of your time is spent with the camera company and what percentage with the drycleaning business?

Mr. RUBY. The camera company is practically nil. In fact, it is out of business now. Over a 2-year period I only did about $10,000 gross sales, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Last year how much of your time was devoted to the camera company?

Mr. RUBY. When you say time, actually I took care of it more or less out of my home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any other businesses last year besides the camera company and the drycleaning business?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I had the nameplate business. That all comes under Earl Ruby Co., both of those.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of your time did the nameplate business take?

Mr. RUBY. Very little. I don’t think I did a thousand dollars in the last 2 years on that, so you can imagine how much time that took up. And then that is dead now. In fact, the orders were so small that instead of manufacturing the plates myself, for which I have the tools and dies, I had somebody else do it for me that makes a similar item.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of nameplates are they?

Mr. RUBY. A little plate 3 inches by 6 inches made out of metal. It is very similar to the design of your license plate, but we would put the children’s name on it, like John Jones, and they would fasten it to the back of their bicycle or their wagon or what have you. This was a box top deal item that we used, Armour’s Meats used it several years ago. They send in a box top from Armour’s franks with 25 cents, and you get the plate, things like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you held the dies on it?

Mr. RUBY. I own them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You own the dies, but you were going to have somebody else manufacture them?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, I did, because it didn’t pay for me to set up to make 100 plates, because it just wasn’t worth it, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did the manufacturing?

Mr. RUBY. Dixie.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this your brother-in-law’s company?

Mr. RUBY. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dixie?

Mr. RUBY. Dixie, no; that is just some people I never even met, but I knew that they made a very similar plate, exactly the same size but slightly different in design, and that I could substitute this for mine. Actually, his was a better plate. It was made out of aluminum, which I did. And so that it wasn’t necessary for me to go through all the bother and expense to set up my operation to make the plate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the Dixie Seal and Stamp Co.?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Atlanta?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the Berger Products Co. is in Philadelphia.

Mr. RUBY. Oh, Berger Products. They made a plate, and the reason I called them, I have got to go back. When I sold my company, Earl Products, the fellow I sold it to couldn’t pay me all the money. So we made a new deal. He gave me some money and some of the operation back. That is how I got back the camera and the nameplate. Berger is also in the nameplate manufacturing business, and I wanted to sell him the nameplate business if I could. That is why I called him. Now I know. It is Philadelphia. That must be the Berger Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now did Mr. Hubert ask you if you knew anybody at the Mar-Din Co.?

Mr. RUBY. No; he didn’t ask me that. Yes; I know those people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know them?

Mr. RUBY. They were one of our best accounts years ago when I first got into manufacturing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was in the Earl Products?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; the Earl Products Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things did they purchase from you?

Mr. RUBY. Well, they purchased aluminum salt and pepper shaker sets. That was the main item. And then they also purchased some hammer and screwdriver sets, because at that time I was manufacturing those, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you deal with these people while your brother Jack was connected with Earl Products?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack know these people?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does the Mar-Din Co. do?

Mr. RUBY. They are distributors of general merchandise, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they do any manufacturing that you know of?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t thing so, not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the nature of their distribution? Is it mail order or direct sale?

Mr. RUBY. Well, it is both. I think some mail order and they have salesmen, which would mean direct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember talking with Jack, your brother Jack, about the Mar-Din Co. at anytime last year?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think when he was talking about—I am not sure now, but I think that he brought up their name when he was talking to me about going into the manufacture of the twistboard, and he thought they would be a very good outlet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall what you suggested to him?

Mr. RUBY. No; I am not even sure of that. I can’t remember a conversation that took place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember receiving any telephone calls from Jack in the month of November before the episode down in Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; we talked about the twistboard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many calls do you recall receiving from him?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, at least three or four, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they all in connection with the twistboard?

Mr. RUBY. As far as I know; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you to try to reflect on these calls and see if we can’t discuss them one by one. If you can, try to think about the first time he called you and the next time, and so forth, so that we can ascertain how your dealings with him progressed?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I think the first conversation was probably to the effect that he had a good item, and he was going to send me one, and he told me something about it, it is a terrific item, and he wants to get into the manufacture of it, if he could.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he send you one of them?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; he did. In fact he sent me, I think he sent me a half dozen. No; the first time he only sent me two, and then when I was down in Dallas, you know, for the trial and so forth, I brought back a half dozen for my kids, and so on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you were interested then in the project?

Mr. RUBY. No; not for myself. He wanted me to see if I could locate people to make the parts at the least possible cost. He wanted to get into the manufacture in Dallas, and he mentioned to me, because I was trying to discourage him, because first of all he don’t know too much about manufacturing, and to set up for one item, which I didn’t think was such a tremendous item, I thought was a little bit ridiculous. And then he said that he would have the Goodwill organization assemble it for him. I don’t know if you are familiar with their complete operation, but they will assemble items for you at a very reasonable rate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is Goodwill Industries?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And was that going to be done in Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. In Dallas. So then he sent me the sample, and somehow I think this Triangle manufacturing came up. He may have mentioned it. I am not sure because I don’t remember every word of the conversation going back that far. I think I called Triangle, if that is their name. I am not even sure of that. He called me and he said, he might have said, “call them and see what you can do.” Anyhow, I contacted a couple of people in Detroit that I thought might know something about the twistboard, because he told me it was so tremendous in Dallas I figured it’s got to be known here in Detroit, although I had never even seen it. So I asked—I happened to call a fellow that is a salesman for toys and novelties and things of that sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mr. RUBY. I can’t even think. I know his first name is Henny, I can’t even think of his last name, and he said it is a flop, it is a dead item here. They tried it and it didn’t go over. So I think in one of the conversations I no doubt told Jack that, and anyhow I got a sample and I think it was of this part that we needed, the bearing part for this twistboard. Maybe I had better describe it. It is a little board, fiberboard about 12 inches square and it sets on a bearing like, and the bearing has another piece of press wood under it, and if you stand on it and you twist, you twist around. That is what the item was. And I couldn’t see it, especially it was selling for $3. I couldn’t see it. I just didn’t think anything of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it Jack was enthusiastic about it?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; he was very enthused. He was going to get started.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to dissuade him at all from his enthusiasm?

Mr. RUBY. I think so, I think so. I really don’t know. As far as I know, I think I did. I told him it just doesn’t pay to get into it, because the one that was being marketed, if I recall he told me was selling for $3. So he said if he could sell his for $2. it would be tremendous. But I figured out the cost to him about 80 cents and if you sell the jobbers, you have got to give them 50 and 10 off. By the way, I have gone all through this with him but I just want to make it clear. So that means he is going to get 90 cents. In addition they want 2 percent, so you get 88 cents, approximately, and it costs you 80 cents, so you can’t be in business on 8 cents gross profit on an item that you are selling for 88 cents. It is just impossible.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And in which telephone conversation did you have this discussion?

Mr. RUBY. In one of them, not the first one, because I didn’t have all the information then. But after I got all the information, I called him or he called me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Jack calling you after the telephone call, a few days after the telephone call that was made in connection with Triangle? Do you remember that telephone call?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I think so, and that is when I told him I think they wanted 45 cents, and that is when I broke down the price structure, that it just didn’t seem feasible to consider manufacturing it if you had to sell it at $2 and I probably told him at that time, I checked into it and it was a flop in Detroit, so it was my opinion it wasn’t good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack call you in November about anything other than the twistboard?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so. I think the only thing we discussed other than—maybe how is the family, you know, how are your kids, which is the general conversation when two brothers talk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever call you in connection with Eva’s illness?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; he did mention that, that she was going to have an operation, she was going to have an operation, she had an operation, and he said, “I think you should call her or write her” or something. I don’t know, I may have even called her in the hospital, I really don’t remember, but he said she was feeling very bad, and for me to either write her, send her a card or call her, and I don’t know what I did. I did something but I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While Jack was living in Dallas, had you talked with him about other business ventures that he had, outside of his clubs?

Mr. RUBY. Well, a few years ago I talked to him about, he had a vitamin called Miniron, or something like that. In fact, I tried to discourage him about that, but I couldn’t, and in fact I think if I remember correctly, I sent him some money to try it, but it just didn’t go. It was a vitamin, a liquid vitamin of some kind that he thought was terrific. He was always taking diet pills and stuff like that. He was whatever the name for that is. Anyhow, he went for all kinds of diet remedies that came on the market. But it never seemed to help him much because he liked to eat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of when he was selling these diet pills or these vitamin pills?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, it is a few years back. It had to be—it was a liquid. I don’t think it was a pill. It was a bottle of some kind. In fact, he sent me some. It is several years back, I mean 4, 5 or 6 or 7. I don’t remember exactly. It was several years ago I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall your activities of the weekend of November 22, 23, and 24?

Mr. RUBY. The 22d, Friday, right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. I was at work drycleaning when we heard the news on the radio.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That the President had been shot?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; first shot. Then we were waiting for additional news, and then finally it came through that he was dead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the drycleaning plant that day?

Mr. RUBY. Gee, I would say probably until 6 o’clock. That is my usual hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. RUBY. Friday I always go home to dinner Friday night because it is traditional in our family. Jewish people, we have a big meal on Friday nights, so very, very seldom would I miss a Friday night dinner. I am quite sure I went home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any specific recollection of what you did Friday night?

Mr. RUBY. No; I was deeply upset, like most everybody else, I think, and I went home I know at 6 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a specific recollection of going home and being at home on Friday night?

Mr. RUBY. No; not specific, but I can’t see what else I would have done but go home to eat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did in the evening after you ate, Friday evening?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your practice to go to religious services on Friday?

Mr. RUBY. You wouldn’t go on Friday night, would you? No; I don’t go on Friday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you of the Jewish faith?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have a particular temple or synagogue?

Mr. RUBY. More or less, yes, but I am not what you call Orthodox. The Orthodox, you know, just like other religions, they go every chance they get more or less. But I am not of the Orthodox.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the temple or synagogue that you belong to, when does it regularly hold services?

Mr. RUBY. It probably holds them—I don’t know. I know they have them Saturday. Saturday they always have services. I don’t think they have services there Friday night. They don’t have services on Friday night as far as I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall your own religious practices when you were living in Chicago with Jack? Did your practices and feelings at that time differ from his?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say—can you make that a little more clear?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Looking back to the time when you and Jack saw each other regularly when you were in Chicago, when Jack was in Chicago, were your religious practices the same as they are now? Were you any more religious then? Did you observe the holidays more closely?

Mr. RUBY. You want to compare Jack with myself?

Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, let me ask you about your own practice.

Mr. RUBY. Well, you must understand, first, that it is very unusual for a Jewish boy not to be bar mitzvah.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking about particular ceremonies, but I am asking you about the regular habits of weekly attendance and so forth. Did they differ in the period before 1948 from the way they are now?

Mr. RUBY. Mine?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say I go more often since I got married, of course, because that is the Jewish tradition. When you get married, you have children, my kids go to Hebrew school, they went to parochial school, in fact my son graduated from the Hebrew school in Chicago, and so I would say I am more religious since we have children.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were single in Chicago, how did your religious practices differ from Jack’s?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say he was a little more religious than I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he attend the synagogue or temple more often than you did?

Mr. RUBY. I would say more often than I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he go regularly?

Mr. RUBY. I wouldn’t say regularly, but he did go more often than I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many times a year would he go other than on high holidays?

Mr. RUBY. This goes back so many years. You know he has been away more or less from me for 17 years now, so it is pretty hard to remember. And you know he is not the only one in the family. We still have six more children. I can’t even remember all their birthdays, remembering who went where on holidays.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you don’t have a specific recollection, I don’t want to ask you the question, then. Let’s go back to the 22d, 23d, and the 24th.

Do you recall what you did on Saturday, the 23d?

Mr. RUBY. I think I went to work, the usual time, probably 7:30, and probably worked until 6 o’clock. Saturday is a busy day for us, and probably went home so far as I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You used the word “probably.” Are you indicating that you don’t really have any specific recollection of what you did that Saturday?

Mr. RUBY. I would say I probably went home, but I am not sure. I would have to check with my wife to make sure. I don’t think we went out, because we were in deep mourning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were, or you were not?

Mr. RUBY. I said we were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were in deep mourning?

Mr. RUBY. So I don’t think we would have gone any place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean when you said you were in deep mourning?

Mr. RUBY. Well, we cried a lot in our family when this happened, I mean actual tears.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when this happened? Can you describe to us where and when and who was present? What was happening around you?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I don’t know exactly what our—but I know after this happened, probably on Friday night, my wife was definitely in tears at that time, and I was, too. We both greatly admired him. In fact, my wife on many occasions, even before the incident, she just loved him. There was nobody greater than President Kennedy. She made a statement many times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you both registered Democrats?

Mr. RUBY. I was a Democrat all my life. In fact, I worked for the Democratic headquarters in Chicago many years ago. All our family has been Democrats all our lives, as far as I can remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did Sunday morning?

Mr. RUBY. On the 26th? Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The 24th.

Mr. RUBY. The 24th. We needed some electrical work done at the plant, and the only time to do it without interfering with production was to have it done on Sunday morning. So I had the electrician come in on Sunday, and I met him there, I think, about 10 o’clock probably, Sunday morning, at the plant to do this work, and I was there until—I just wanted to get them started, and I had one of my other employees there to watch things, you know, because we had an outside contractor, electrical contractor here to do the work, and there is a lot of clothing there and we wanted to be careful if they worked on the ceiling that they didn’t drop dirt on the clothing and so forth.

So I left. I was there maybe 2 hours, I don’t remember, anyhow I wasn’t in the car but 5 minutes or so driving one of the other employees—another employee who stopped in home—I was en route to drive him home. We had the radio tuned in. That is when I heard—no, before I left this Mike Nemzin, who is my best friend, and his brother is my partner, he was in the hospital with an operation——

Mr. GRIFFIN. The brother or Mike Nemzin?

Mr. RUBY. Mike Nemzin. He had some kind of surgery on his ribs or something, a very serious one, though, and so I thought I would call him to see how he was.

So I called him Sunday morning, it must have been about 12 o’clock, from the plant, I was at the plant, mind you, and as I am talking to him, he is in his bed in the hospital, he is watching television or radio and he says to me, “I can’t talk to you. Somebody just shot Oswald,” he says.

“I’ll talk to you some other time.” You know, because we were all excited, especially he was. So I hung up. And we didn’t have the radio on in the plant, but we left a few minutes thereafter. And in the car, as I said, about 5 minutes later, as I am in the car driving, just drove probably a mile from the plant, which wouldn’t take more than 5 minutes, it comes through on the radio that Oswald has been shot and the fellow that did the shooting is Jack Ruby, owner of the Carousel Night Club in Dallas, and I immediately knew it was my brother because that was the name of the club he owned.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say you were riding with someone at the time?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his name?

Mr. RUBY. Jim Stewart.

Mr. HUBERT. Does he still work for you?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is he located now; do you know?

Mr. RUBY. Right now he is in the hospital, Receiving Hospital in Detroit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you heard that?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I was very upset, of course, and he said—I was driving—he said, “You had better pull over to the curb. You just turned white as a ghost.”

So I pulled over for a second or for a few minutes to recuperate my senses, so to speak. And then I said, “I had better take you home,” which I did. Then I went home. I drove home, and I called my sister in Chicago. I don’t even know which one I called. There is two of them. And they knew about it, of course, by that time, too. This was a half hour later and they probably heard it on the air. And they were all upset, of course. And I said, “Well, I had better come to Chicago.” So I called the airport and I flew to Chicago Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the cleaning plant after you finished talking with Mike Nemzin?

Mr. RUBY. Just a couple of minutes, just a few minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what other people were in the plant at that time?

Mr. RUBY. When I talked to Mike Nemzin?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. The electrician, I think, and his helper, he had a helper, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name of the electrician?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us his name?

Mr. RUBY. The trade name, I think, is Marco Electrical Contractors, and his first name is Marty. That is with a “c”. It is a little bit of an odd name, but I have it available there if it is necessary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. His last name starts with a “c”?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think that is where he got this Marco. And then, of course, as I told you I flew to Chicago, and my brother met me at the airport, if I am not mistaken, Hyman, and this was already before I could get reservations and get the plane and pack some clothes and all. It was late in the afternoon, and I think I arrived there, if I am not mistaken, probably 6 o’clock in Chicago, and it takes about an hour to get there.

Anyhow, no sooner I got in the house, you know, of course, the reporters were calling and it was a real—we tried not to talk to everyone, to anyone, if I recall.

When I got there, then my sister said that there were some men at the door and they said they were FBI men or special agents, and she thought they were reporters so she wouldn’t let them in, and she was hysterical now, to put it straight. And so then we got a call. We did answer the phone, of course, and we got a call from an agent, I can’t remember his name, but he said that they want to get in and talk to us and we wouldn’t let anybody in. You know, we just wouldn’t let anybody in. So he says, “Here is a number and call this number and my name is”—one of them was White, and I can’t think of the other one, one of the agents in Chicago. “Call this number and they will verify this that we are special agents.” So I said OK. So I went out to a pay station and called, and sure enough they said yes, they are agents, and so I walked back into the house the back way, and I saw them standing in the front, by the way. You know, there were about three or four of them. And I told my sister we had better let them in, they are special agents, which we did. There were four, I think. Four agents came in at one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did they interview you and your brother and your sister?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; all of us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you being interviewed simultaneously by the Bureau?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; in different parts of the house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that while you were being interviewed, one or more of your brothers and sisters were also being interviewed.

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; they talked to one sister, I think one agent talked to her in the kitchen or dining room or another part of the house, and one or two were with us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time the Secret Service agents had talked to you, had you had a chance to talk with any of your family in Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. Had I?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, at the time that the FBI talked to you, did you have an opportunity to talk with any of your family in Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t think I even had time. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall having talked to them?

Mr. RUBY. No; but I don’t think so at all. There was just not enough time. I called Chicago, if I recall, that is all I called. I don’t think I called Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Hyman or your sisters in Chicago had a chance to talk with Eva or Sam?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived in Chicago and talked with Sam——

Mr. RUBY. With Hy, you mean.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With Hy, yes—did you discuss any contacts that Hyman had had with Jack over the weekend?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in Chicago on the 24th?

Mr. RUBY. I just remained overnight and went back to Detroit, because my wife called me late at night, I don’t know what time it was, very late anyhow, and she said, “You had better come home. The reporters are just driving me crazy.” She was terribly upset. So the next morning I flew back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in Chicago, did you make any plans with respect to obtaining an attorney for your brother?

Mr. RUBY. While I was there for that little while?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. No; but I think if I recall correctly Tom Howard was already in the picture. I heard his name. I didn’t talk to him, but as far as I know I heard his name on the air, that he was representing Jack, or something to that effect. At least I think so. But I don’t know if that was before I left for Detroit or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the nature of your meeting with your brothers and sisters in Chicago?

Mr. RUBY. Well, they were upset and they suggested I come there. So I came there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any discussion as to what you could do for Jack?

Mr. RUBY. We probably did, but there was nothing definite made, no definite arrangements. I know that I called, I think, Tom Howard. He was the first attorney, if you remember, to represent Jack, Monday morning after I arrived back home, because when I arrived there we had police at the house already, and the chief of police and my wife came down to meet me at the plane, and en route back my wife was telling me how the newspaper reporters were bothering her, they wouldn’t let her sleep. They were there until 2 o’clock in the morning and whatnot, you know. So I didn’t know what to do. So I asked the chief of police—his name is Sackett—a very nice man—what would he suggest. They all wanted information, a press conference or what. He said, “If I were you, the only way you are going to get rid of them is give them a press conference.” But I didn’t know if that was the correct thing to do, so I am quite sure I called Tom Howard and told him who I was and told him that all these news people wanted a press conference and what should I do. And I told him what the sheriff, the police chief, had suggested, and he says, “Well, there is no harm. You might as well do it and get it over with.”

So we called a press conference, I think it was, for 2 o’clock in the afternoon, something like that, and our rabbi came over, Rabbi Adler, and then I think right after that, I think some special agents called and came in or came over, and I think there were some there in the evening. Again, I think they came. And that ended that day. That was Monday. And then we started talking about attorneys and what to do and who to use.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say, “we started talking about it.” Who was this?

Mr. RUBY. I talked to the family, and I talked to—we talked back and forth so many times. I am talking about Chicago, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. And I think they were in touch with Dallas. I think Eva and Sam, they were talking back and forth, more or less continually.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do with getting Mr. Tonahill into the case?

Mr. RUBY. Indirectly; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you who you directly got into the case, if anybody?

Mr. RUBY. Belli.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us how Mr. Belli came to get into the case?

Mr. RUBY. Jack called. They let him use the phone down there. He talked to me or someone. Anyhow, we were talking about a lawyer then. We were all excited about getting the right lawyer. And he mentioned—I am trying to get it straight in my mind here. Oh, yes; he mentioned somebody wanted some information on his life or something, a life story or something, something to that effect, and he said to contact Mike Shore in California, in Los Angeles, who is a friend of ours, and he was a pretty well known publicity man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Mike Shore before you called?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know Mike Shore?

Mr. RUBY. Well, actually, I know him since high school days in Chicago. He originally lived in Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a classmate of yours in high school?

Mr. RUBY. No; but he went to the same school, if I remember, and I really didn’t get acquainted with him until after we got out of school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your acquaintance with Mike Shore after you got out of school?

Mr. RUBY. Just on a general hello and how are you basis, nothing real close.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But in what connection would you see him?

Mr. RUBY. Then he became——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you understand my question? In what connection would you see him after you got out of school?

Mr. RUBY. I used to be a lifeguard at a swimming pool close to where he lived and he used to come over there once in a great while, just a few blocks from his house. And he used to—he was a Good Humor salesman, and we would go out and see him where he parked his truck or something once in a great while. But that was because he was more friendly with other people than he was with me. In other words, I wasn’t one of his buddies. I would go along just for the ride.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do any business with him?

Mr. RUBY. I am coming to that. Then he became—he opened up the Mike Shore Advertising and he is the one that was behind Earl Muntz, you know, and the cars and the television. That is Michael Shore. And I did some business with him along in manufacturing. He got into the manufacturing of an item, a food seasoner. It was a large aluminum needle and you filled it with some different meat flavors and you injected it in the meat. Somebody talked him into it. He was doing very well, and he invested in it. Anyhow, it wasn’t made correctly so they couldn’t sell it, so he asked me since at that time I was in manufacturing, if I could correct the defect so they could at least sell them and market them, which I did. They shipped all these to me, I don’t know how many thousand, 5,000 or 10,000, and we reworked them and fixed them and sold them for him. Then not too long after that Muntz practically went bankrupt, so he closed the Chicago office and moved back to California. So, anyhow, I called Mike.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you another question. From what you have said, I take it that Mike Shore first had contacted your brother Jack or somebody in Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. No, no, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack told you to call Mike Shore?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had Shore contacted Jack or what gave Jack the idea of suggesting that you call Shore?

Mr. RUBY. Well, Jack knew that I knew Mike Shore, and he was, you know—he had been in advertising, was the only one we knew that could give us any advice as to what to do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack had someone approach him in connection with a life story or something like that?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; he said several people were trying to contact him through Howard and wanted a life story.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The first you heard about this, though, was when Jack called you and asked you to contact Mike Shore?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; as far as I know. Now, wait—I don’t know if he talked to me or he talked to one of the members of the family, because we had so many telephone calls from those first few days I can’t recall all of them. But, anyhow, the word came to me to call Mike Shore and ask his advice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall how long after Oswald was shot that this call of yours took place?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, just a day or two later, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it you did call Mike Shore?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call him in California?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I called him in California.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And about how long did your conversation with Shore last?

Mr. RUBY. Several minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ten or fifteen minutes?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I really don’t know. Anyhow, I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what that conversation was.

Mr. RUBY. Well, I mentioned that Jack had said that people were interested in a story on Jack and Jack had said to contact him, ask his advice. And so he says, “Gee, that is a coincidence,” he says, “because I’ve got somebody sitting right here in my office that would be the perfect man to do a story on Jack if one is going to be done.” And he says, “His name is Billy Woodfield.” His real name is William Woodfield. So he says, “I think you ought to come out here,” the conversation got to that, “so we can talk it over.”

So I flew out there a day or two later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that all there was to the conversation at that time?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; lawyers weren’t mentioned yet as far as I remember. I don’t think we mentioned the lawyer in the first conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you discussed with your family or with Tom Howard before you called Mike Shore——

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What had been your discussion about selling the life story with your family and with Tom Howard?

Mr. RUBY. Well, the question came up that we would need money for a good lawyer, and this was one of the solutions to raising money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you called Mike Shore, are you saying that you had discussed getting a lawyer other than Tom Howard, or when you use the term good lawyer are you talking about paying Howard?

Mr. RUBY. No: we were talking about a lawyer other than Howard now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had suggested that you should get a lawyer other than Howard or how did that idea arise?

Mr. RUBY. That was, I think, between our family, the family itself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you discuss this with Howard before you called Mike Shore?

Mr. RUBY. Wait, you are ahead of me. The first conversation I didn’t mention a lawyer to Mike Shore yet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize that.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But I am still asking you, you had indicated to me that the reason that you were calling Shore and thinking about a life story was that you were going to need money for another lawyer. The life story, as I understand it, is tied in with the idea of getting the money for a lawyer, or was there another reason for selling the life story?

Mr. RUBY. No; I think I talked to Tom Howard because we never heard of him, of course. In the meantime, I think in conversations back and forth, we talked with another lawyer there, somebody talked to him from the family or maybe it was relayed through my sister Eva down there—and I have a brother Sam in Dallas—do we need another lawyer. And then we learned that they were already trying to get a lawyer.

Now, you must understand, we have to go back to Tom Howard. Tom Howard is a bondsman in addition to being a lawyer. That is what he is noted for there. So then I think I talked to this other lawyer, Stanley Kaufman. He was my brother’s civil lawyer down there. And I asked him if he knows a good criminal lawyer, and he says, no, he can’t recommend anyone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you, Mr. Ruby.

Mr. RUBY. Excuse me. I can’t remember the exact sequence of all these conversations, because they were going back and forth all day and night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe we can reconstruct it by asking you questions. From what you have said, I take it that by the time you called or somebody talked to Stanley Kaufman, the idea had been implanted that you would need a lawyer other than Tom Howard.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who had planted the idea? How did that idea develop that you would need a lawyer other than Tom Howard?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t remember exactly, but it could have been even my own thoughts, because a day or two after the shooting and the papers started to print stories, and stories about Tom Howard, and I realized who he was, and he was suspended at one time, I immediately thought this was not a good lawyer to have for my brother.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was Jack’s original attitude, if you know, about Tom Howard?

Mr. RUBY. He wasn’t too crazy about Tom Howard, as far as I could see, from what he told me, because he said Tom Howard contradicted himself a few times to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did Jack, to your knowledge, develop the idea on his own that he should get somebody other than Howard, or was this suggestion raised to Jack?

Mr. RUBY. That I don’t know. You are asking me what his thoughts were. I don’t know. I can’t answer that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn’t know if you had contact with him or not. Now, to your knowledge, were any other Dallas lawyers contacted besides Tom Howard before the final team of Belli, Tonahill, and Burleson?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; Belli was the main one, you know. He was the first one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but before Belli was brought in, were any other Dallas lawyers, or Texas lawyers——

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; they talked, Howard—Howard and I discussed this, and he said he needs help, he wouldn’t mind another good lawyer. So we mentioned several names. He talked to Percy Foreman, and Percy Foreman, he told me Percy Foreman wants $25,000 as a retainer before he will even step into the case. So he says, “I know you don’t have that kind of money so that eliminates him.”

However, later, upon talking to Foreman, he denies that. He said he only asked for $2,500.

Anyhow, they contacted Stanley Kaufman. Stanley Kaufman contacted Fred Brunner. He is a Dallas criminal lawyer, very good. And the story I got is he says, “Okay, I’ll handle the case. I will be right down to take over.”

He never showed up. We found out why. He is Henry Wade’s best friend, and so it just wouldn’t work out. He just couldn’t take it. Although he never called, we understood that that is what happened, because they down there found out that he was Henry Wade’s best friend, and so he probably for one reason or another, he couldn’t take the case.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any personal knowledge, however, that the friendship with Howard was the reason that Brunner didn’t take the case?

Mr. HUBERT. With Wade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With Wade. You don’t know this?

Mr. RUBY. No; I talked to Brunner myself when I was down there later on. Brunner said something to the effect—I don’t remember the exact words. I ran into him in the county jail. I don’t remember what he said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you about why he didn’t get into the case?

Mr. RUBY. I am just trying to, if I can find the words or something close to what he said. We just met in the hallway, and he said—I can’t recall that conversation at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Brunner mention——

Mr. RUBY. But I had a later conversation which I remember very clearly,——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.

Mr. RUBY. This was after Jack received the sentence, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. Then Brunner told me that he now wants to help Jack. He feels that this would never have happened if he had handled the case originally, the verdict, you know, the death verdict, and that I should talk to the family and think over about him taking over the defense.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything about Henry Wade at that conversation?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; he said, “Even though I am very close,” words to the effect that “even though I am very close with Wade, don’t let that worry you,” or something to that effect. But I forget that first conversation, and I just don’t want to give you words——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he mentioned Wade in the first conversation that you recall?

Mr. RUBY. I am not sure and I don’t want to just—no, we contacted Percy Foreman. You want to know who else?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. I didn’t know. This is only that I learned from Howard. He said he contacted Percy Foreman. He contacted Fred Erisman, a retired judge. There is another one, another very good criminal lawyer, but I can’t even think of his last name to look it up. Is it important? I’ve got it here, but I just can’t remember the name.

Oh, yes; here is another one they talked to, I understand—Jim Martin. In fact, he was in the case more or less with Howard. Oh, that is Charlie Tessmer, the other lawyer they contacted. And he turned it down. Why, he never told us, but he turned it down. In the meantime, I had talked to Charlie Bellows from Chicago who is now acting as consultant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to contact Mr. Bellows?

Mr. RUBY. Well, one of my close friends in Chicago worked in his office, another lawyer, Rheingold, Milton Rheingold.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, let me ask you here, did you know a lawyer in Chicago by the name of Weiner?

Mr. RUBY. A lawyer? I don’t think so, not a lawyer. I know a doctor, not a lawyer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead now with your contact with Bellows.

Mr. RUBY. So we talked to Bellows. I talked to him, rather. And he said he was going to be rather busy, and he wasn’t sure he could take the case. As a matter of fact, that is who I wanted originally, because we knew him. His office represented me before Rheingold, was in his office with him, was my civil lawyer in Chicago, more or less, so you know at least we had a knowledge of who we were going to hire. And, in addition to that, he is a great criminal lawyer. He is head of the American Defense Lawyers, and all that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And had you contacted Bellows before your telephone call to Mike Shore?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I am quite sure I did, and I asked him to give me an idea of the fee because, you know, expenses. Well, he said his fee would run anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000, because he figured it would be a 2- or 3-month trial, plus expenses.

So I, of course, asked him what his expenses might be, and he says it shouldn’t be more than, if I recall, $100 or $200 a week for his own expenses, he said, because he doesn’t live highly and knowing me he is going to keep it down as low as possible.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Bellows now?

Mr. RUBY. Bellows.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Ruby, had you discussed a fee with Tom Howard?

Mr. RUBY. I did, but I don’t know when.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the fee that was finally arrived at with Tom Howard? What was his fee to be?

Mr. RUBY. His fee was originally, if he would stay in all the way, he told me from $10,000 to $15,000.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many lawyers did Howard suggest would be needed besides himself?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I mentioned the names, you know, like Bellows. In fact, he talked to Bellows, and we were in the process of probably working something out with Bellows, but he was too busy, and asked—then the question came up as to whether Bellows would be a risk in Dallas, since he is Jewish. And I talked to about a half dozen other lawyers, and I even talked to the best criminal lawyer in Detroit, Joe Louisell. I had a meeting with him. I asked his advice. He says, “Don’t bring a Jewish lawyer down there.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Howard’s view?

Mr. RUBY. Howard agreed with that. So that more or less took Bellows out of the picture. Now, in the meantime, I am back, going to California. So I go to California. They meet me at the airport. Is everything pretty well in sequence up until now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right, we will clarify. We will ask you some questions about it.

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; first the conversation, to get back to Tom Howard, the first one or two conversations, as I said, I talked to him Monday morning. Then I think I talked to him Monday night. I don’t remember, I talked to him any number of times. And in our discussions we talked money, costs. He mentioned “It is going to take a couple of months. You have got to figure anywhere total expenses close to $50,000.”

I never knew all these things existed that you have to hire a special investigator, and he wants $10,000. And you have got to have an appeals lawyer like Burleson. That is how he came in. You have got to pay him.

Anyhow, he broke it down, roughly, over the phone he says it may run $50,000. So that is why I started asking any lawyer I talked to, like Bellows, “How much are you going to charge? I have got to know all these things. Give me an idea what we have to raise.”

Then I had all of this information more or less in the back of my mind, how much have we got to raise to get Jack a decent defense counsel. Then I go out to California. They meet me at the airport, Mike Shore and Woodfield. The first thing they say, “Have you got a lawyer yet?” I says, “No.”

I am still talking to Bellows. He is not out yet, you see. He is not out of the picture. Howard is still supposedly trying to contact somebody else that is good. I haven’t been to Dallas yet. In the meantime, as I said, he had contacted Foreman and Charlie Tessmer and Fred Erisman. They were out. Fred Brunner, he didn’t want to get in at the beginning. Those were considered some of the top criminal lawyers in the State of Texas.

So, anyhow, I meet him, they meet me at the plane in Los Angeles, get in the car. The first thing they ask is “Have you got a lawyer?” And I tell them what is going on. I am not sure yet. So they start talking to me about Belli, Melvin Belli. I had never heard of him. And they couldn’t understand it. But I never had. And I told them that, that I had never heard of him, and so they start telling me how great he was, you know, and all that stuff.

And they said, “By coincidence he is in town. He is in L.A.”