Chapter XXXIX: Part 39

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Sunday morning?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.

Mr. HERNDON. “Have you answered all questions truthfully?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.

Mr. HERNDON. The test is over. Will you sit still a moment. I will release the pressure on your arms. You may now move your hands and get the circulation back.

(Reporter’s note: 4:12 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. I have no questions on that.

Mr. Ruby came in here what time—originally?

COURT REPORTER. My notes indicate around 2 p.m.

Mr. HERNDON. How do you feel, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Fine.

Mr. HERNDON. You’re not tired?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, you are perfectly relaxed?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. As long as Mr. Ruby feels fine, I think we can continue and we can prepare the exact wording for the next series.

You may wish to bring the other gentlemen in.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, thank you.

Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have returned to the room.

(Conference off the record between Messrs. Specter and Herndon regarding formulation of questions.)

Mr. RUBY. Joe?

Mr. TONAHILL. Yes, Jack.

(Conference between Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Ruby from 4:13 to 4:15 p.m., out of the hearing of this reporter and others in the room.)

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, you are a good man.

Mr. RUBY. Who, Bill?

(Conference between Mr. Alexander and Mr. Ruby from 4:15 to 4:18 p.m., out of the hearing of this reporter and others in the room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Holman, what time do you feed Mr. Ruby? What time do you start the evening meal?

The JAILER. Well, we begin about 4:30 p.m.

Mr. HERNDON. Are you hungry. Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. No, I’m feeling fine.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, let’s go ahead with this series of questions and then we will take about a 20-minute break.

(Conference between Mr. Alexander and Mr. Ruby from 4:22 to 4:25 p.m., out of the hearing of this reporter and others in the room.)

Mr. SPECTER. All right, we are ready to go on to the next series of questions.

Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel all right, Mr. Ruby, at this time?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. We will now go to the first question of this next series, Mr. Ruby, and I will ask you these questions. I want to make sure you have a clear understanding of what they mean.

“Were you in the Dallas Police Department jail basement at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s car drove out of the basement?”

Now, I see you are hesitating on that—I can rephrase it if you so like?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, no.

Mr. HERNDON. Let me go over it again, to make sure the question will be clear to you.

“Were you in the Dallas Police Department jail at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s car drove out of the basement?”

Mr. RUBY. If I can explain it—if I can elaborate on it, it will be easy to answer.

Mr. SPECTER. Go ahead now, if it’s all right with your counsel, so we can focus in on what concerns you.

Mr. HERNDON. Perhaps I might want to ask that other question first and he would find he might not have as much of a problem if I asked it first.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, I prefer to stay with what we have now. I think we can. If it’s all right to have him explain it, if it’s all right with his attorney, I’d rather stay with that.

Mr. RUBY. I’ve already told it to the Warren Commission?

Mr. TONAHILL. Well, go ahead.

Mr. RUBY. As I left the Western Union, I walked toward the ramp, and as I walked down, Lieutenant Pierce’s car was parked already on the curb, partly on the curb and partly some of it was on the ramp, and some officer was talking to him, so consequently—I don’t know how to answer that—whether I was in the basement—when his car had driven out?

Mr. SPECTER. Did you walk by his car?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. At the same time it was parked there?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. So that the officer did not see you——

Mr. RUBY. That’s correct.

Mr. SPECTER (continuing). Because the car was parked there?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; and his back was turned to me.

Mr. SPECTER. To state it differently, did the presence of the automobile and the fact that he was talking to Lieutenant Pierce obscure the vision of the officer who was on duty guarding that entrance or exit?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; and I walked down because I didn’t know they were guarding it—that there was anything going on there, you know?

Mr. HERNDON. Well, with that question, I can see his area of conflict here.

Mr. TONAHILL. What you want to know is was he in the basement, but he was out on the sidewalk. I think that’s a straight question.

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Were you in the basement or were you on the sidewalk when Lieutenant Pierce’s car came out?” How about that?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I will revise that one question and break it down.

Mr. TONAHILL. Yes, that’s a very good question.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, will this question create any problem for you? “Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s car”—I had “drove out,” but was he driving out or was he parked there?

Mr. RUBY. When I noticed him he was already—he was stationary. He was parked. He had stalled there or something.

Mr. SPECTER. “Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s car stopped in front of the guard at the exit?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes. Why do you say “stopped at the exit?”

Mr. TONAHILL. At the ramp exit.

Mr. HERNDON. “The ramp exit”—that makes it specific.

Mr. Ruby, your question will then be, “Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s car stopped on the ramp exit?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Or, would you prefer “at the ramp exit?”

Mr. RUBY. That’s okay.

Mr. HERNDON. Let’s leave it “on the ramp exit.”

Another question I will ask, “Did you enter the jail by walking through an alleyway?”

Mr. RUBY. What do you call an alleyway—a ramp?

Mr. TONAHILL. It’s a ramp, it isn’t an alley. It goes under the building and comes out.

Mr. SPECTER. That’s all right, we’ll stand on that.

Mr. HERNDON. You will stand on that question, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. In other words, you can answer that as you want to?

Mr. TONAHILL. Now, if he says “No”——

Mr. ALEXANDER. It isn’t an alley, now, it’s a ramp.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me specify here—is there another entrance to the jail that you have to go through an alleyway?

Mr. RUBY. There’s another—the Commerce Street entrance, and there’s two entrances, and there’s ways of coming through, I imagine, from the——

Mr. TONAHILL. But it’s a driveway, is what it is, going down.

Mr. ALEXANDER. There’s nothing in the sense that you’re thinking of—you could come from the building out where you could go down the ramp on either side.

Mr. TONAHILL. It’s all under the building, not the ramp.

Mr. FOWLER. Actually, I think what he is thinking of is that there is an alley too.

Mr. ALEXANDER. It wouldn’t be accessible.

Mr. FOWLER. It would make it very difficult to get down into the basement from the alley.

Mr. ALEXANDER. All right, if Jack knows we’re talking about “alley,” as long as you distinguish between the alley and the ramp, so he can answer your question.

Mr. TONAHILL. He has always referred to it as a ramp.

Mr. RUBY. That’s a ramp.

Mr. SPECTER. By “alley,” we do not mean the ramp. We mean the entrance into the building.

Mr. TONAHILL. Now, you’ve got him squared away.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. We want you to understand the question exactly.

Mr. HERNDON. The question will stand as is.

Mr. TONAHILL. Why don’t you read the question?

Mr. HERNDON. Just leave the question as it is?

Mr. SPECTER. Leave it as it is.

Mr. HERNDON. The next question I’m going to ask, or one of the questions I will ask will be, “Did you walk past the guard at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s car was parked on the exit?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. You said it was parked?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. I think I’ll put it “on the ramp exit” so it’s perfectly clear, and I will repeat the question.

The question again, “Did you walk past the guard at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s car was parked on the ramp exit?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, the other questions here, “Did you talk with any Dallas police officers on Sunday, November 24, prior to shooting Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Other questions I intend to ask on this next series, Mr. Ruby are: “Did you previously live in Chicago?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Are your parents alive?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. This next question, and you don’t have to answer it now. You can answer it on the test. “Did you ever make a false insurance claim?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. You are a man in business and you would probably have insurance on perhaps your car, your personal life and your business?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. I just wondered if you ever made a false insurance claim?

Mr. RUBY. No—I see what you mean—No, I have it on an automobile.

Mr. HERNDON. I put this question in here—I’m not sure, actually, but “Do you still operate the Carousel Club?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. You don’t?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. All right. The questions will be: “Do you still operate the Carousel Club? Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s car stopped on the ramp exit? Did you previously live in Chicago? Did you enter the jail by walking through an alleyway? Are your parents alive? Did you walk past the guard at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s car was parked on the ramp exit? Did you ever make a false insurance claim? Did you talk with any Dallas police officers on Sunday, November 24, prior to the shooting of Oswald?”

Do you understand all those questions and can you answer them clearly and simply “Yes” or “No”?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Apparently this is series 5?

Mr. SPECTER. We called the last series, series 3a.

Mr. HERNDON. We will call this series 4, according to my records. Is that in sequence, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I believe it is.

Mr. HERNDON. I will proceed shortly then, gentlemen.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have now left the room.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, do you want to put both of your feet on the floor for me, sir, and look straight ahead at the wall, and relax until I get the instrument adjusted.

(Reporter’s note: 4:35 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. All right, I will now put some pressure on the arm cuff, and I will tell you when I am going to start asking you questions, Mr. Ruby.

We will now begin.

(Reporter’s note: 4:36 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you still operate the Carousel Club?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s car stopped on the ramp exit?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you previously live in Chicago?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. Try to sit still, if you can.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you enter the jail by walking through an alleyway?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Are your parents alive?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you walk past the guard at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s car was parked on the ramp exit?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever make a false insurance claim?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you talk with any Dallas police officers on Sunday, November 24, prior to the shooting of Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. That series is over. If you will sit still for a moment, Mr. Ruby. I will now release the pressure from your arms.

Mr. RUBY. Am I acting a little nervous?

Mr. HERNDON. A little, but I think you’re getting a little bit tired. That’s quite all right. I notice a little motion, but I will certainly take that into consideration when I evaluate and interpret these charts.

(Reporter’s note: 4:40 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. Is there any area of doubt at all in your mind about that question where you were on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s car stopped at the ramp exit?

Mr. RUBY. I said I was on the sidewalk—I walked past.

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; did that question trouble you then?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. You were on the sidewalk?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. I just wanted to clarify that. When I asked you, “Are your parents alive?”, Mr. Ruby, have they been deceased for some time?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Did that question bother you or trouble you at all?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t know—I guess I’m nervous now—I don’t know just why I said that.

Mr. HERNDON. I have no further questions in that series.

Mr. RUBY. Aren’t you going to ask me whether I knew anything as to whether or not he was going to come down, or anything like that?

Mr. HERNDON. We will have to prepare some more questions.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are now back in the room, and we are going to take a brief recess.

Mr. HERNDON. You’ve done very well thus far, Mr. Ruby, as far as cooperating on the examination.

Mr. RUBY. OK. What happens now?

Mr. HERNDON. We’re going to take a break and give you a little rest. Now, if you will just lean forward and raise your arms, I will take this equipment off of you.

Mr. RUBY. I’m not hungry, jailer.

Mr. HOLMAN. Do you want to go lie down?

Mr. RUBY. We only have a 20-minute break. That’s all.

Mr. HERNDON. Might I suggest to the jailer that you might like to sit at another chair and change your position?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

(Reporter’s note: 4:45 p.m.)

(The proceedings were in recess at this time from 4:45 p.m. to 6:25 p.m.)

Mr. SPECTER. May the record now show that it is 6:25 p.m. and that we have adjourned for a period of 1 hour and 40 minutes, during which time Mr. Ruby has had an opportunity to rest. Is that correct, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby has just asked me about the presence of reporters downstairs, and would you get this in the record. Miss Oliver. Would you repeat what you just said to me, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Are you going to make any announcement to them?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; and you asked me to speak freely about this matter?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. My view is that we should, in view of the circumstances, as I have been told—there are a large number of reporters downstairs, and I’ve discussed this with Mr. Fowler and Mr. Tonahill, and it’s our joint view that there should be an announcement made that you have requested a polygraph examination and that we have conducted one under the auspices of the President’s Commission through the cooperation of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, that there has been extensive examination and the results, of course, cannot yet be known at this date, but they are to be taken to Washington and studied for future action by the Commission.

Mr. RUBY. Let’s make it clear that Mr. Tonahill don’t represent me. Joe, let’s have that understanding?

Mr. TONAHILL. Clayton is going to make whatever announcement is made for you, Jack.

Mr. RUBY. Joe, let’s have that understanding, will you please, Joe?

Mr. FOWLER. Jack, we’ll have no difficulty with that, don’t worry about that.

Mr. SPECTER. The substance of what I just said was discussed by me with Mr. Fowler and it is our thought that that would be an appropriate statement to make at this particular time. That’s about as far as we can go. Do you concur in the advisability of that?

Mr. RUBY. Now, with reference to hedging on questions and so on, don’t you think some comment should be made that I wasn’t reluctant in answering any of the questions that were put to me?

Mr. SPECTER. I think that would be a fair comment to make, if you want that statement made?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think so.

Mr. ALEXANDER. That there was cooperation. That he was cooperative.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; that he was cooperative.

Mr. RUBY. On all questions on anything and everything pertaining to anything.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, in view of your interest in that disclosure, I think that would be appropriate to be made.

Mr. ALEXANDER. That without reservation, he cooperated fully.

Mr. RUBY. I wanted to be more specific, that I wanted to be asked.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, I said that initially. In other words, that it is at your request that we had conducted this, so that it would be clear that you took the lead in initiating this examination, which is the fact, and we will state the fact or give you the credit in that direction, just as it is the fact.

Mr. RUBY. But the point I wanted to bring out was that I wanted to specify that I also wanted to be asked any and all questions, regardless of what might be subversive or whatever thoughts might be in your mind.

Bill, I think you can give these people certain questions and more potent ones than they know, because you probably know a lot of things that you have in your own mind that you’d like to have answered too?

Mr. FOWLER. Well, Jack, let me say this for your purpose and for the purpose of the Warren Commission. This is not a trial and really, Mr. Alexander is here as an attorney just like I am. He’s representing the State just as Mr. Tonahill and I are representing you.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, I can’t really think of anything that I’d like to ask.

Mr. RUBY. Well, let me get this clear. I notice that the pictures brought out the fact that there are two sets of private boxes, close together in the post office. Did you gentlemen know this? Which is quite an insinuation.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, let’s ask the question, “Did you meet Oswald at the post office at any time, as far as you know, until the next day?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes—and also they had a statement in there that I used the box for purpose of mail orders and to do business with Mexico and Cuba. That’s incorrect because I never did business with Mexico and Cuba.

Now, these are things that you gentlemen don’t want to ask me, but Mr. Alexander would know what to tell you about that.

Mr. ALEXANDER. There is one question that ought to be asked.

Mr. SPECTER. I want that, Bill.

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did any Cuban or foreign influence cause you to do any act?”

Mr. RUBY. Very good—very good.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Because there has been some question about maybe Jack was motivated from Cuba and we ought to eliminate that and ask him a question to give him a chance to eliminate it.

Mr. RUBY. Also, I want to get the gun situation straightened out. You know what I’m talking about—the Ray Brantley call.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. And the trip down to Cuba—I’m getting things confused now.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Let’s let him write that.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, we have conferred with all parties here on the substance of the questions to be asked. Naturally, we have limitations in time and we can only ask them in a short series. We have conferred with Mr. Fowler, we have conferred with Mr. Wade and with Mr. Alexander here, and naturally also, the interest of the Commission is paramount, and we are doing our very best not to interfere with the State criminal proceedings. We do not wish to take sides at all nor to influence it in any way. We want to accomplish the purpose of the Commission. Those interests overlap to some extent because whenever we ask a Commission question, it has collateral bearings on a great many things, but to the extent that we can, we have conferred, as I say, with the defense counsel and the representatives of the district attorney’s office in arriving at the questions which have been asked, and I think we will cover before this examination is concluded the important areas. Now, at the end of it, if you feel that there is some other area that you would like to have covered, we would be very willing to hear your request and to accommodate you to the maximum extent possible consistent with the policy of the Commission.

Mr. RUBY. Mr. Alexander knows certain questions that he has in his mind that haven’t come out and I think I know what he’s thinking about.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, Mr. Alexander has talked to me about some questions that I’m sure he would prefer on the record and we have taken those into account in formulating our questions. Isn’t that so, Mr. Alexander?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes, sir. I think what Jack has in mind is that he wants an opportunity to answer a question regarding any possible connection with anything in Cuba. Also, he wants a question asked that will give him an opportunity to explain that the gun which he asked Ray Brantley to mail to McWillie in Las Vegas——

Mr. RUBY. Not to Vegas, to Cuba, and all I did was to receive a phone call, and this was—I told this to the Warren Commission—and this was during the time when we were very friendly together.

Mr. ALEXANDER. That was in 1958.

Mr. RUBY. All I did was relay the phone message to Ray Brantley, and he said, “Oh, I know Mr. McWillie very well,” and following that I never followed up or seen him. Now, this is incriminating for me because all I did—like a tool—got myself involved by relating a message that somebody else wanted. Now, this was during peacetime because he wanted protection from the foreign element coming in.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack relayed the message that McWillie wanted a Smith & Wesson or some kind of a .38.

Mr. RUBY. Yes. There wasn’t no money or anything in the deal. Ray Brantley said, “Oh, I know McWillie. I’ve done business with him constantly.” Following that—I never followed up on it a time, and what he did—and this is incriminating against me very bad, but he had the irony to do this—when I mentioned the fact that I did call Ray Brantley, this man denied that I called him. That makes me a liar to that extent, so I want that question put to me in reference to Ray Brantley and all that and I want about my trip to Cuba and my association with the underworld.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, the question of the gun with Ray Brantley was covered in detail when the Chief Justice was here and we shall cover that in the balance of the polygraph examination.

Mr. RUBY. I also had numerous phone calls, long-distance calls, all over the country and that was with relationship only to my nightclub that I had trouble with the union. There was no conspiracy, but you’ll go into that.

Mr. SPECTER. You covered that also in your testimony before the Commission.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; but that doesn’t prove anything.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Let me suggest one question there to ask him?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did any telephone call you made have any connection, however remote, with your shooting of Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. ALEXANDER. That will cover it.

Mr. TONAHILL. How about asking him if he didn’t tell the Warren Commission the truth several weeks ago in answering every question they asked him?

Mr. RUBY. I didn’t elaborate enough with them and we didn’t go into it enough, because I was telling a complete story. Yes; I’ll answer that—certainly I will.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine; that will be asked of you.

Mr. HERNDON. That will be somewhat all inclusive.

Mr. SPECTER. We’ll have that for the very next series.

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did you have any telephone conversation which related in any way with the shooting of Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. Also, ask me whether the phone calls were in reference to the union trying to get somebody to help me with my club.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Let’s make another question about that. “Did any union or underworld connection have anything to do with the shooting of Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. Very good.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I will add those in and cover them to the maximum extent possible, and I add that reservation because there are a great many additional questions to be asked which we have already mapped out.

Mr. HERNDON. Do you want me to proceed with the usual preliminaries?

Mr. RUBY. You don’t have to proceed with that. Why don’t you just call them to me and I’ll answer them. You want to go through a formality—a previous thing.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, he’s got to have a record.

Mr. HERNDON. I want to make sure you understand the question involved.

Mr. RUBY. I’m sure I do.

Mr. HERNDON. I feel in fairness to both of us, we have to do this.

Mr. RUBY. Believe me—believe me, you don’t have to go through that formality, if you want to save yourself a lot of time, and I think you’ll like that better.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, he has to have a written question that’s keyed to this tape.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I follow that, but he doesn’t have to go through the preliminary explaining to me this because I’ll answer anything you want “off the hook.”

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, we appreciate your willingness to do that and we’ll take you up on that to the fullest extent possible, but Mr. Herndon has to do some preliminary questioning which is indispensable to his evaluation.

Mr. RUBY. All right, get him to minimize it if he can.

Mr. SPECTER. He will bear that in mind and minimize it to the fullest extent.

Mr. HERNDON. Are you ready?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Then, these gentlemen actually will not be aware of the questions, is that all right with you, I mean—prior to the time they leave? I believe we discussed that previously and I did want to mention it, that it would be so important when the questions would be asked.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Not to me, Jack.

Mr. RUBY. I see—about your being aware of the question.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Specter, you recall, previously—one of the reasons I was going over all the questions before actually conducting the examination was in order for these gentlemen that are in attendance to be aware of what questions are going to be asked Mr. Ruby during the actual polygraph examination. Now, if we dispense with that before we go over these questions, if they leave the room, they do not know the questions I’m going to ask him.

Mr. ALEXANDER. I don’t think Jack has any objection to us staying here at this time, do you, Jack?

Mr. RUBY. No; I certainly don’t.

Mr. FOWLER. Well, of course, I still have the same objection, and respectfully request again, Jack, that we’re not trying to hide anything—don’t misunderstand me.

Mr. RUBY. Just a minute—let me tell you something. I want to straighten up some things. Whether he leaves the room or not, Mr. Alexander is going to know everything that went on here, so please concede to it.

Mr. FOWLER. Well, I’ll concede to this, that at sometime he will know, but I’m saying this—that perhaps there might be something, Jack, that might in some way be to your detriment if Mr. Alexander knew the answer to the question at this time. Now, he may say “No,” but I still, as your attorney and in trying to protect your rights, insist that it be handled in this way, and I would certainly appreciate your cooperation with me to that extent.

Mr. RUBY. The only reason I want Mr. Alexander here, I want him to know my effectiveness when I answer the questions.

Mr. FOWLER. Jack, that’s very well, and I don’t think he has any doubt that you’re trying to hide it and all of that.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, let us proceed as we have before, with Mr. Herndon announcing the questions in advance but going through a minimum amount of preliminaries so that he is satisfied that he can evaluate the results.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And we will proceed on that basis.

Mr. RUBY. You can run through them a lot faster and I’ll grasp them.

Mr. HERNDON. All right; I will proceed in that manner and also with the questions we have already set forth.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; and then we’ll supplement them to cover the additional topics which have not yet been included.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, do you feel all right to continue with this?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I am ready.

Mr. HERNDON. Very fine. I will hook this up and go over these questions and I’ll just read them out to you and you just speak up if there is one you want to rephrase.

Mr. RUBY. Go ahead.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you see the armored truck before you went to the basement?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you enter the police department through a door at the rear on the east side of the jail?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “After talking to Little Lynn, did you hear any announcement that Oswald was about to be moved?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Before you left your apartment Sunday morning, did anyone tell you the armored car was on the way to the police department?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Those are your main questions, and I will ask you some of these other routine questions.

Mr. RUBY. All right; go ahead.

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you have any brothers?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you have any sisters?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Have you answered all questions truthfully?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, here’s a question I want to go over with you very carefully. “Did you ever hit anyone with any kind of weapon?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. All right; I’ll give you an opportunity now to explain that to me. This is for my purposes of the examination.

Mr. RUBY. Well, in running a—in my business, when you get somebody with a—it’s a very exciting business. One particular night a man pulled a knife on me and I took a pistol and hit him on the head in that altercation, and sometimes you get fellows with real bad rough reputations. They’re real toughs. There’s no question about it, and being in my type of business for a livelihood, the only way you can—of course, I do call the law enforcement officers. At that particular moment, it’s my life or theirs, and some of these men are pretty powerful physically, and I fought in every way possible, with my fists and everything else—but to minimize the various troubles I had, where there would be an altercation or something come up, I’d tell them to leave, and of course, something would happen and they would go from here—whatever it is. It happened a few times where I would pummel a few of these men.

Mr. HERNDON. I understand, Mr. Ruby, but all of these incidents that you recall are in connection with your operating this club?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; they are at the club. These boys are real bad boys and they all have records, and they’re pretty tough guys. Will you agree with something on that?

Mr. ALEXANDER. That’s right.

Mr. HERNDON. Then, on the actual test. I’m going to ask you this question: “Other than what you’ve told me, did you ever hit anyone with any kind of weapon?”

Mr. RUBY. I don’t follow—“Other than what you’ve told me?”

Mr. HERNDON. In other words, other than your being the owner of a nightclub, which because of the type of customers you occasionally have, you would have to use some force, perhaps hit a customer or hit someone in your club?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Have you ever been involved in any other situation where you actually struck at somebody with a weapon? “Weapon” here I’m referring to as a gun, club, or knife or anything that would be other than just a normal fist-fight.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that happened, but that was before I got in this trouble. This man threatened to kill me and was going to go for his gun, and I was nice enough to have him stay at my place and he was causing a nuisance in the vicinity of the club, causing brawls and all that and I tried to reprimand him, and a little boy of Italian descent and very gracious, somehow he got very belligerent with me, and I knew he had a car and he said, “I’m going to get my pistol,” and there’s a funny reaction about that. Once they get you cowered to that extent, then you’re doomed, and there’s a funny feeling, when I was with him, that you have with them. So, I got my pistol and I cornered him and I called him by his name and I called him a name, and I said, “You’re going to kill me, you so-and-so?” Finally he said, “I was only kidding, I was only kidding,” and there’s a certain reaction you have and I can’t explain it. That’s the only time any crime of that sort has ever happened outside of my business.

Mr. HERNDON. Outside of your business?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HERNDON. Then, if I asked you whether or not you told me you ever hit anyone with any kind of weapon, unless something else comes up to your mind, you would answer that “Yes”?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, like if I was a goon or something.

Mr. HERNDON. Yes, a union goon.

Mr. RUBY. A union goon. Right. I haven’t been a slugger or anything like that.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, we can go along here Mr. Ruby, and I will hook up the instrument.

(Reporter’s note: 6:43 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. Will you raise your arms, Mr. Ruby, please? Do you feel comfortable?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, lean back. [Attached instruments to Mr. Ruby.]

Mr. RUBY. Have I been evading any of your questions?

Mr. HERNDON. You have been most cooperative—thus far no problems.

Mr. RUBY. But you can’t tell how I stand, can you?

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, I will want to take a considerable amount of time to review these charts very thoroughly before I come to any conclusion.

Mr. RUBY. How long would it take—how long will it take?

Mr. HERNDON. Well, I can’t answer that question with a definite answer. It depends on what I may run into when I study these very carefully back in Washington.

Mr. RUBY. Bill, will I still be around when the answers come back?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. Raise your right hand and give him your word.

Mr. ALEXANDER. That’s right.

Mr. RUBY. Chief, you heard him, did you not, Chief? [Addressing the Chief Jailer Holman.] You and I should live so long.

Mr. HERNDON. Is that comfortable, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, I’m not going to ask the questions at this time, I’m just going to readjust the instruments.

Mr. TONAHILL. Let’s go, Bill.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have left the room.

Mr. HERNDON. Do you want to cough, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. You want me to?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes.

(Mr. Ruby coughed at this time.)

Mr. HERNDON. All right, are you about ready to begin with this one?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Once again, just repeating instructions, if you will uncross your legs, sir, and put your feet flat on the floor and look straight ahead and answer the questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.”

This will be series No. 5. I will let you know when the test will begin. Is there a little pressure on the arm cuff?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, Mr. Ruby, look straight ahead. That’s fine. Now, just look straight ahead and try not to move, and the test will begin.

(Reporter’s note: 6:45 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. “Is your last name Ruby?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you see the armored car before it entered the basement?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you have any brothers?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you enter the police department through a door at the rear on the east side of the jail?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you have any sisters?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “After talking to Little Lynn did you hear any announcement that Oswald was about to be moved?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Other than what you’ve told me, did you ever hit anyone with any kind of weapon?”

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know how to answer that.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, just sit still and relax, sir.

Mr. RUBY. Ask me that again—I got the answer.

Mr. HERNDON. “Other than what you’ve told me, did you ever hit anyone with any kind of weapon?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Before you left your apartment Sunday morning, did anyone tell you the armored car was on the way to the police department?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Have you answered all questions truthfully?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. All right, that test is over. Just sit still for a moment, and I will now release the pressure on your arm. You can move you left arm and relax.

(Reporter’s note: 6:50 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. I’m sorry if I gave you any problem on that question.

Mr. RUBY. Yes, because it threw me off again.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, we’ll just go over it again as a matter of record. I asked you there, “Other than what you’ve told me, did you ever hit anyone with any kind of weapon,” and you explained that at two different times and that once it was in the club with some people and customers, and another time it was outside the club, and when we bring out other than those, was there any other time you hit anybody with a weapon?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. You don’t recall any other time, is that correct, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. I thought I said two of them—and I thought it meant with my fists.

Mr. HERNDON. Well, I meant with a weapon, when you actually hit someone with an implement in your hand.

Mr. RUBY. You thought I was feminine, didn’t you, Chief? Why did you lock me up in that tank? [Addressing Chief Jailer Holman.]

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, when I asked you, “Do you have any sisters?” I asked that in the plural—you have more than one sister?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. You have several sisters?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. How many sisters do you have?

Mr. RUBY. Four.

Mr. HERNDON. Did anything in particular come to your mind when I asked you that question?

Mr. RUBY. No—not like that other question.

Mr. HERNDON. What question?

Mr. RUBY. The one about “Have you ever been married?”

Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I recall.

Mr. RUBY. Do I sound like a man with an unsound mind to you?

Mr. HERNDON. As I said before, Mr. Ruby, I’m not qualified to answer that question.

Mr. RUBY. Oh—oh.

Mr. HERNDON. You have been cooperative as far as answering my questions and proceeding with the examination.

(At this point Mr. Specter left the room and shortly thereafter Messrs. Alexander and Tonahill returned to the room.)

Mr. HERNDON. We can proceed and move pretty fast as soon as Mr. Specter comes back. Just sit and relax. Would you like me to take any of these things off?

Mr. RUBY. No, no.

Mr. HERNDON. Are you comfortable?

Mr. RUBY. You’re not going to ask me any more questions? Do you want to go through that stuff there?

Mr. HERNDON. I think I had better wait for Mr. Specter to be here. I don’t want to proceed without him. Can I get you a drink of water?

Mr. RUBY. No. Can we talk about certain things?

Mr. HERNDON. I suggest you wait until Mr. Specter returns.

Mr. RUBY. Is there anything on your mind, Bill, off the record?

Mr. ALEXANDER. I think with that Cuban thing cleared up and with an opportunity to answer a question on that——

Mr. RUBY. How about the underworld?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, he’s going to ask you that, if he hasn’t already.

Mr. RUBY. There were a lot of phone calls, as you recall. I’m sure you know that and there should be a specific way to ask me—“What was the purpose of all those calls?”

Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, you see, that wouldn’t record on the machine. The question would have to be, “Did any telephone calls have any connection with the shooting of Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes, but still, when you have so many calls, you still want to know why you called people.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, all your telephone calls were either business or personal, weren’t they?

Mr. RUBY. That’s right, and the other question you asked about Oswald—you know?

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did any of these calls have any connection with the shooting of Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. No. How about my trip to Havana?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Has that been asked yet?

Mr. HERNDON. That hasn’t been asked.

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did your trip to Havana have any connection with the shooting of Oswald, however remote?”

Mr. RUBY. Have I ever had any business dealings—I want them to know my relationship.

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Have you ever had any political or business connection with Castro or Cuba?”

Mr. RUBY. That’s a good question. Or, why did I make that trip to Havana?

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Was your trip to Havana personal or business?” I think that’s overlapping that Cuban deal.

Mr. RUBY. Yes, but here’s the thing. When people ask me—they say, “Jack, you went to Havana, Cuba” and I say, “I went there for a vacation.” They say, “How long did you stay?” When I say, “8 days,”—you somehow have got to answer specifically that it was a vacation, because a person can be very evasive and say he went for a vacation but yet had other dealings there.

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Was your trip to Havana purely for vacation and pleasure?”

Mr. RUBY. That’s right.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, my memory is just vague—you’ve never been to Mexico?

Mr. RUBY. I never have been to Mexico, but Bill, you know a lot of questions to ask me, I’m sure you know, that I’d like to get cleared up.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, you never have been interested in politics, as far as I know?

Mr. RUBY. What I was doing down at that News Building—what was I doing down there Friday—I want that question asked.

(At this point Mr. Specter returned to the room.)

Mr. TONAHILL. That’s kind of a belabored question, Jack?

Mr. RUBY. Joe, you don’t believe that.

COURT REPORTER. I want to be sure I heard Mr. Ruby’s answer to Mr. Alexander’s question a little while ago?

Mr. RUBY. You want to hear that again?

COURT REPORTER. I didn’t quite hear your answer to Mr. Alexander’s question, “Did any of these calls have any connection with the shooting of Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. Oh, you’re taking down what I’m saying? I didn’t know you were taking that down.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; we’re taking everything down.

Mr. RUBY. Oh—well, give me the question again.

COURT REPORTER. This was when Mr. Alexander asked you, “Did any of these calls have any connection with the shooting of Oswald?” and what was your answer to that question?

Mr. RUBY. No.

COURT REPORTER. Thank you.

Mr. RUBY. Are you putting down the questions I’ve been asking myself?

COURT REPORTER. Yes; everything you’ve been saying.

Mr. RUBY. Voluntarily—correct?

COURT REPORTER. Oh, yes. Just like you say them.

Mr. RUBY. Okay.

Mr. SPECTER. We are putting it down in the record, Mr. Ruby, just like you’re saying it.

Odell, can you bring me up-to-date, I’ve been out of the room.

COURT REPORTER. Mr. Alexander has been asking him certain questions that might be asked about——

Mr. RUBY. About that Havana, Cuba trip.

COURT REPORTER. And had he been to Mexico, and had he been in politics, and Mr. Alexander said to his knowledge he had not been interested in politics, and the purpose of his trip to Cuba, whether it was for business or pleasure, and I believe that is what was covered.

Mr. RUBY. The most important question—you haven’t asked me yet—why did I shoot Oswald?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, they can’t ask that kind of question for this machine. They can only ask you—was it for a certain purpose. It has to be a “Yes” or “No” answer.

Mr. RUBY. The point is—if I was carried away emotionally, and because I felt that, it sounds so unbelievable. Why shouldn’t I be asked a question—why—what motivated me to do it?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, answer now the question, “Why did you shoot Oswald?” and then we will turn that around into a question to ask you for a “Yes” or “No” answer.

Mr. RUBY. At the particular moment, after watching television all that——

Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let me interject right now, again, as your attorney—I advise you not to answer this question.

Mr. RUBY. Clayton, I’m sorry, I’ve got to answer it. I’ve got to, because, believe me, it means an awful lot to me. I didn’t want—I felt so carried away—that at that particular time of the great tragedy, I felt somehow in my little bit of a way I could save Mrs. Kennedy the ordeal of coming back for trial here.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, fine, Mr. Ruby. That’s the same answer to that general question that you gave when the Commission heard your testimony, and we shall phrase that in an appropriate question for the polygraph examination. Now, will you proceed, Mr. Herndon, with our next series, please?

Mr. HERNDON. Do you want me to rehearse the ones that are prepared?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; just our prepared series, and we will take these in a sequence and we will cover everything else later.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, I’ll go over these for you again, Mr. Ruby, so that you understand the intent of the question and what it means.

“Did you get a Wall Street Journal at Southwestern Drug Store during the week before the assassination?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Was the Wall Street Journal addressed to a Mr. Bradshaw?”

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know.

Mr. HERNDON. Well, that one, we’re going to have to rephrase. “Do you know if the Wall Street Journal was addressed to Mr. Bradshaw?”

Mr. RUBY. I haven’t read a Wall Street Journal in the longest time—in years, probably.

Mr. HERNDON. Do you wish to keep that question in, Mr. Specter?

Mr. TONAHILL. Jack, was there a man named Bradshaw, your landlord?

Mr. RUBY. No; Houston Nichols was my landlord, but I know a Bradshaw. He used to be in the pinball game machine business.

Mr. TONAHILL. A jukebox man?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; everybody knows him.

Mr. SPECTER. What is his first name, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know, but he owned a liquor store and he’s a pretty successful businessman.

Mr. SPECTER. Was a Wall Street Journal addressed to Mr. J. E. Bradshaw, dated November 16, 1963, in your car at any time?

Mr. RUBY. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever heard of any such Wall Street Journal having been found in your car?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. We will rephrase that question too. Let’s try this: “Do you have any knowledge of a Wall Street Journal addressed to Mr. J. E. Bradshaw being found in your car?”

Mr. RUBY. No; did they find one somewhere in my car?

Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, please, Mr. Herndon.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you or any of your friends telephone the FBI in Dallas between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?”

Mr. RUBY. How could I—I was incarcerated? Oh, Sunday morning?

Mr. HERNDON. Some people might refer to that as Saturday night.

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I know I went to bed about 1:30, so I can’t answer that.

Mr. SPECTER. Make that “To your knowledge”——

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. “To your knowledge, did any of your friends”—do so and so?

Mr. HERNDON. I think in that way you should be able to answer “Yes” or “No”.

“Did you or any of your friends telephone the sheriff’s office between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Again, I can rephrase that—“To your knowledge—” if you wish?

Mr. SPECTER. Make it—“Did you or any of your friends, to your knowledge, phone the sheriff’s office?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. And then, some of these questions I will ask you again here, such as, “Did you previously live in San Francisco?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. I understand you did.

I’m going to ask you this question, which will help me, and that is, “In your dealings, Mr. Ruby, as a nightclub operator, at any time have you ever overcharged a customer?” I assume there are some times when you probably are at the cash register, is that correct, and you are handling the transaction of money with customers or with the bills.

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. You understand what I mean by “overcharge”?

Mr. RUBY. We have a very lucrative business in champagne there, the kind of business that—Bill Alexander knows about it—they get merchandise received for what they get. It’s quite lucrative and that’s one way you can survive, I guess.

Mr. HERNDON. I’ll just simply ask the question, “Did you ever overcharge a customer?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. I’ll probably ask you questions for your identity, like “Is your name Jack Ruby?” at the beginning of these series.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Let’s see, gentlemen, I believe we’ve gone over all these questions, and I’m going to ask you also as a matter of record on the test—are you tired?

Mr. RUBY. No; as a matter of fact, I’m feeling my best right now.

Mr. HERNDON. You feel all right.

Those are the questions we’re going to ask.

(Reporter’s note: 7:05 p.m.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill left the room.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, I’ll get this machine to going again, and we will get started on series No. 6. Mr. Ruby, could you sit up a little straighter? When you slouch over like that, I’m not getting the tracing I want on the reading. Now, that’s much better. [At this time Mr. Herndon snapped his fingers.] Look straight ahead again, Mr. Ruby.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. I will let you know when I’m going to start the test, and if you will answer the questions again, simply and truthfully, “Yes” or “No.”

If I come to any one of these that you feel like you are not sure how to answer it and you don’t want to answer it “Yes” or “No,” once again just refrain from talking and we will discuss the question at the end of the series.

Mr. RUBY. All right. I’ll remain silent, huh?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; remain silent.

(Reporter’s note: 7:08 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. The test will now begin.

“Is your name Jack Ruby?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you get a Wall Street Journal at the Southwestern Drug Store during the week before the assassination?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Are you tired?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you have any knowledge of a Wall Street Journal addressed to Mr. J. E. Bradshaw?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you previously live in San Francisco?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “To your knowledge, did any of your friends or did you telephone the FBI in Dallas between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever overcharge a customer?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you or any of your friends to your knowledge telephone the sheriff’s office between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning.”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. I think that series is over and I will release the pressure.

(Reporter’s note: 7:10 p.m.)

Mr. RUBY. Are they that important—those questions? I know more important ones than that. Of course—I’m kidding.

Mr. HERNDON. We have some more coming.

Mr. Ruby, has a customer by any chance ever claimed that they were overcharged at your place? Have you ever had any problems along that line?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes—we have problems with waitresses and big bills.

Mr. HERNDON. Other than what you told us about the Wall Street Journal, is there anything else that came to your mind with regard to this Wall Street Journal question?

Mr. RUBY. As a matter of fact, the question you asked me is so foreign to me——

Mr. HERNDON. In other words, you are completely unaware of the Wall Street Journal situation?