Chapter VIII: Part 8

Mr. LITCHFIELD. And the tests showed that I hadn’t seen him because when the man giving it asked me, “Have you definitely seen him,” and I said, “Yes,” and it showed that I hadn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he told you the results of the test?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he didn’t tell me the results of the test, but Donald did—he didn’t tell me—he didn’t come right out and say, “No,” but it was obvious. They had me pick Oswald’s picture out of a bunch of police photographs, and anybody on the street could pick that man’s picture out. That doesn’t mean I have seen him—I told them that—I said, “Heck, anybody walking can pick his picture out.”

Mr. HUBERT. And you had observed to someone prior to the shooting of Oswald that you thought you had seen Oswald somewhere?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were the people that you were—that you observed that to?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Let me understand your question—whom did I say this to?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I mentioned it like I said, there at the poker game.

Mr. HUBERT. This was the same poker game that went on into Sunday the 24th?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Was that the day that Oswald was killed?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—that would be it. From Saturday the 23d to Sunday the 24th—I made it then, and—

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make it after Oswald was shot at that same poker game?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. That’s when I made it. We was watching it on television—the rerun of it.

Mr. HUBERT. I had understood you to say that you had said you thought you had seen Oswald somewhere, and that you made that statement prior to the time that Oswald was shot?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I made it once but like I said, I don’t remember who I made it to.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not at the poker game?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—the statement at the poker game—we were watching it on television and it showed everything there and someone says, “I think I’ve seen that fellow,” and I said, “Yes; I think I’ve seen him too.” That was the second time I had said it—before when his picture came out and everything, I said, “I think I have seen him,” but I don’t remember where I was when I said it.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did your poker game begin?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, Saturday night about 9 or 9:30.

Mr. HUBERT. And went on until——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Into Sunday and until about 6:30.

Mr. HUBERT. In the afternoon?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the first time you made the observation that you thought you had seen Oswald somewhere must have been before the poker game began?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—it was.

Mr. HUBERT. So that would be before 9 o’clock on Saturday?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—it was. It was right after the assassination—they were showing all the films and the capture of Oswald, etc., and when I was watching television, I don’t remember where I was, I said, “I think I’ve seen him.” And people sitting around me said, “He looks familiar,” and I made the statement, “I think I have seen him.”

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when Oswald was shot and you made the statement again that you had thought you had seen Oswald, did you say anything that would indicate that you had seen him, Oswald, at Ruby’s place?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I just said, “I think I’ve seen him too,” I forgot who it was I said that to, but the guy said. “I think I have seen him or I think I know that guy,” and I just said, “Yes; I think I have seen him, too.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that—then that it might have been that you had seen him at Ruby’s place?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I started trying to remember—everybody was sitting around and saying, “Where have you seen him?” Trying to think, and I thought about it and I remembered seeing a man similar to him, very similar to him at the Carousel that night I was there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to anybody?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Just Don Green when I called him on the phone and then when I went down to the police department.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to any of the people you were playing poker with?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us the names of the people you were playing poker with, whose house was it at, first?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. J. W. Grubbs [spelling] G-r-u-b-b-s.

Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Boy, I can’t tell you that—I can tell you how to go there, but I don’t remember what street it is. You go out Beckley past the A. Harris shopping center—I don’t remember the name of the street, you turn left and then you went down a couple of blocks and you turn left again—there were three cars of us and I followed. I don’t remember the name of the street.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us the names of some of the other people at the poker game?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. J. W. Grubbs and there was Ernie Stoy [spelling] E-r-n-i-e and S-t-o-y, and one fellow I just met, he just came in—I didn’t know, and another fellow, gee, I sure wish I could remember his name. I know him when I see him—they are always at the bowling alley, he usually bets on the pot games, and he is a big heavy set black headed fellow and Max Lewis was there.

Mr. HUBERT. [Spelling.] L-e-w-i-s?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes [spelling], L-e-w-i-s, and I think there was one more—I don’t remember who that was.

Mr. HUBERT. They were all there throughout the game—were they all there throughout the game?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Max left Sunday morning and then returned.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time it became known that Ruby had shot Oswald, did you observe to anyone that you knew Ruby?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe I did. I think everybody was saying whether they knew him or not and I believe I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone else there know him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think one or two others might have said that they knew him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Grubbs knew him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Who said they knew him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I could assume, but I don’t remember who said that they knew him.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you did not at that time say that you thought you had seen Oswald in the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I just said that—you are getting mixed up. I said—when it became obvious that Ruby had shot him, we were watching it on television, and we were, you know, how you are talking, “I think I know him,” and I said, “I’m pretty sure I know Jack Ruby,” and I said, “What is that idiot doing now?” Or something like that, and I forgot that someone said, “That Oswald, I think I’ve seen him somewhere before,” and that’s when I said it.

Mr. HUBERT. You said the same thing, “I think I’ve seen him?”

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When was it you began to associate Oswald as a man that you had seen somewhere before—and as also the man you had seen in Jack Ruby’s club the last time you were there?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe it was that day—not that I was associating necessarily it with Ruby—it was that everybody all of a sudden had seen him and they were trying to think where they had seen him and I was trying to remember where I had seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, my point is that you ultimately came to tell Jack Green——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Don Green.

Mr. HUBERT. Don Green, that you thought you had seen him at the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. When did that firm up in your mind, because from what I gather it was not firmed in your mind where you had seen him, on the Sunday when you were playing poker, isn’t that right?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Correct. I wasn’t positive then, no, where I had seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you become positive that you had seen him at the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I was thinking about it during the week, on Thursday or Friday, and it dawned on me that that looked like the fellow that I had seen in the Carousel.

There was another fellow up there that I had never seen before and made a heck of an impression on me—he was about twice my size, a real flashy dresser, white on white shirt and his suit was a very flashy type, and he had just gotten married, but he, himself, made a heck of an impression on me, the way he was dressed and his size, and this fellow that I had seen in the Carousel made a heck of an impression on me the way he was dressed—he was dressed sloppy—in a sloppy shirt and kind of a gray khaki-type pants. I thought, “What is this idiot doing up here?” You know, because it is known that the Carousel is a clip joint and you’ve got to be an idiot to go in there in the first place, or a tourist, one of the two, and I just ran—I guess you would just say that it came into my mind that that looked like the fellow I had seen. I was associating the sloppy dress with him because he was dressed sloppy on television and when you see it repeatedly and repeatedly—you remember it.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you think the man might have been Oswald that you saw in the Carousel was dressed on the occasion you saw him, which was the last time you saw Ruby?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. He had on a white sweater and kind of a T-shirt-type sweater, and a pair of, I guess they were gray khakis or they might have been gabardine, there was no crease in them and they were real sloppy and his hair wasn’t combed, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t talk to him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, I didn’t talk to anybody while I was there other than Jack and I did meet that photographer—I don’t remember his name. Jack introduced me, and I did meet that great big guy. He came back into the office—he did once while I was in there with Jack and he had just gotten married to some girl from Galveston and they were celebrating their honeymoon and I was thinking, “You’ve got to be a nut to come to a place like this to celebrate a honeymoon.”

Mr. HUBERT. When you came out of Jack’s office, did you see this man that you think might be Oswald in there still?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. When you come out of his office, you can’t see nothing—you walk down the hall and turn left and then you are back in the club part of it—the Carousel.

Now, when I came back in the club part, the man that I thought was Oswald had already seen Jack—I was the last one to see him—I don’t think there were more than two or three people left in the club—this big heavy-set fellow and his wife were still there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this man you thought was Oswald was waiting to see Jack?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was ahead of you?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you had an opportunity to observe him then as the man who got to see Jack before you did?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there before you got there?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And was sitting down at the table?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he drinking something?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I don’t remember if he had something or not. He was in front of me and all I could see was his back at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever get a look at his face?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. When he left he had to walk right by me. The door is not more than—it’s one of these partition-type doors and it is not more than 5 feet or 4 feet wide, and the table I was sitting at—I was sitting at the edge of the door. I couldn’t help but see him when he walked along there.

Mr. HUBERT. How long was he in with Jack?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No more than 10 or 15 or 20 minutes, maybe, at the most.

Mr. HUBERT. And when he came out you went in Jack’s office?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; you see, Jack’s office is back, in the back and you got to walk down two halls and Jack came out and got me. This fellow came out and then Jack came out and got me and I went back there with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe what this fellow you thought might be Oswald did at that time?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. He went on out the door.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him again?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; not until I saw him on television—and I thought it was the same one.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that impression got firmer and firmer in your mind, as I gather it, as the week went on?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. After that Sunday television seeing Jack shoot him there; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But when you told Don Green your impression, it was not the same day, was it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; it was a week later.

Mr. HUBERT. It was actually the Sunday later?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe it was Saturday or Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. And the impression began to grow on you more and more that it might well be the same man?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And as a matter of fact, as I understand you, it grew so much that you thought you should tell someone about it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I called Don and asked him what he thought I should do.

Mr. HUBERT. And he suggested coming to the office and I think you have told us about that.

Was there another man around there you heard had come from California?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. There was somebody waiting to see Jack, like I said, that was sitting—there was a aisle going straight and you got to turn left—back by the pole where the light switches are, and he was waiting to see him and I believe he said he was from California and he was in his middle thirties, a black-headed fellow. I never met the man and he saw Jack and he was still there when I left.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. This fellow we are speaking of now.

Mr. HUBERT. From California, you mean?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think he said he was from California. I think when I came in the doorman said, “Well, there are two other people here and the photographer to see him ahead of you,” when I first came in, and he said, “He’s late now, but you can have a seat and wait if you want to.” And the two other people were the fellow whom I assumed that looked like this Oswald, and this fellow, I believe that said he was from California and the photographer—were the three people in front of me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the man who said he was from California talk to the man you think was Oswald?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen Oswald before?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; never had.

Mr. HUBERT. You were shown pictures of Oswald, is that right?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was shown a police photograph of him, front and side view, with three others.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your impression at that time as to whether Oswald was the man you had seen in the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I wasn’t asked my impression at that time—all I was asked is, “Pick out Oswald,” and I said, “There he is, anybody walking in Dallas could do it.”

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose in having you pick out Oswald?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I would imagine the police department wanted to know if I really knew him or really had seen someone like him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, when you picked out Oswald, were you simply picking out Oswald because you had seen his picture on television, or were you picking him out because he was the man you thought you had seen in the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I picked out his picture, I was picking it out because I had seen it on television so many times.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the police wouldn’t ask you to pick out Oswald’s picture unless there was some reason for your specific identification of Oswald.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well——

Mr. HUBERT. You had called Green, from what you tell me, to tell him that you thought that you had seen a man who looked like Oswald at the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t that the reason why they were asking you to pick out the man that you had seen at the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I would assume—I don’t know. I wouldn’t know their reasoning behind it. I would assume this would be it, but when I picked him out, I told them at the time, I made the statement, “Anybody in Dallas could pick him out—he was on the TV so much.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell them that the man I now know is Oswald from the films and that I am now picking him out is also the man that I saw at the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You told them that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you believe that to be true?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I thought it was until they convinced me I was wrong.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you think about it now?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I said, “It sure as heck looked like him,” that’s all I can say now. Of course, I don’t want to say I’m definitely positive it is—I said, “It’s a heck of a close resemblance.”

Mr. HUBERT. That’s your testimony right now, that as far as the man you saw and have described—sloppy clothes, white jacket—T-shirt type—go in and see Ruby before you on an occasion approximately 5 weeks before the assassination of the President, that that man and the Oswald photographs later shown you, you think that they bore a close resemblance?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; they do—they bear a resemblance.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather that you were more positive of the identity of Oswald as being the man in the Carousel on the occasion we have been speaking about at one time than you are now?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What has caused your opinion in the matter to weaken?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. The fact that they gave me the polygraphic test, that showed when they asked me—was it definitely him, it didn’t show up right, and the fact that I had told Don when I called him, I said, “It sure as heck looks like him,” and when the police were questioning me, they said, “Are you positive, are you positive, are you positive?”

I said, “It looks like him, it looks like him, it looks like him.” And they come back, “Are you positive, are you positive?” And then the fact that when the Federal agents talked to me, they said, “You know, if you say you are positive and it wasn’t him,” it’s a Federal charge, and I said, “Well, I’m not that positive.”

Mr. HUBERT. The Federal agent told you if you gave an opinion——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; they said, “If you give false information as to an exact statement—” not an opinion, but if I say I’m positive, that’s a statement.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you conveying to me that you really were positive, but that——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. In my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. You were scared off of it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; no, sir. I said in my mind I was positive that it looked like him, but I’m just as fallible as anybody else. I could be 100 percent wrong. I said, “In my mind, the man that I saw looked just like him,” but then again, I can’t say 100 percent.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is still your opinion?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I said it bears a close resemblance, but not having come in contact with Oswald at all or having never met him or anything, and just seeing him for a fleeting glance, the back of his head and when he walked by me; no, I can’t be 100 percent pure positive.

Mr. HUBERT. But you knew all of that the first time you told it to Green?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, like I said, “It sure does look like him—the man I saw there sure does look like Oswald,” those are my words.

Mr. HUBERT. But, what has caused you to weaken in your opinion it was Oswald, as you tell it to me, is the fact that you got the impression that if you gave a positive identification and it proved to be false, that it would be a Federal offense, is that correct?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; they said, giving false information to the FBI, and I’m not 100 percent pure positive. I say, “It bears a close resemblance,” and this is all I can say.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s all you did tell them?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; that’s the statement I signed.

Now, the big heavy-set fellow that I met, I shook hands with, made an impression on me. I was as close to him as I am to you now, or closer. I shook hands with him, and I saw him more than for a fleeting moment.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to show you a picture and ask you if you can see any resemblance between the picture I am going to show you and the man you thought might be Oswald—this picture I am going to show you, the man is dressed up, but if you can use your imagination to see if there is any resemblance?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. To see if there is any resemblance?

Mr. HUBERT. To see if there is any resemblance in the face, at least, and the hair, and so forth?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; Oswald’s hair isn’t that thick in the center.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m not talking about Oswald, I’m talking about the man you saw at the club you thought might be Oswald.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; there is no resemblance.

Mr. HUBERT. There is no resemblance?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the picture that I have shown to the witness has been identified as Exhibit 5302 in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. Do you know Captain Fritz of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had difficulties with him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Once.

Mr. HUBERT. In what regard?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. He sent two men to the place that I was working and had them pick me up for investigation without a warrant, bodily remove me out of my office, and held me on robbery by firearms, which I couldn’t have a writ of habeas corpus that night, or something, I had to go before a judge or something, and I didn’t get out until the next morning, and he didn’t even appear at the hearing.

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. That was in—I think it was March or April of 1961, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t seen him since?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, when I had to go down to the police station, I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean the next morning?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; when I had to go down for questioning. No, he didn’t even show up at the hearing there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Jess Willard Lynch [spelling] J-e-s-s W-i-l-l-a-r-d L-y-n-c-h?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I don’t think so—the name doesn’t sound familiar. I know a Lynch, but Jess Willard Lynch?

Mr. HUBERT. What Lynch do you know?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I know a Donald Lynch from school.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he in Dallas?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. How long has it been since you have seen him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. High school.

Mr. HUBERT. I see—that is to say about 10 or 12 years ago?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Roughly—that name doesn’t sound familiar.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a person by the name of Earlene Roberts?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Earlene Roberts—I don’t remember whether I know her or not. Closely, I don’t—I could have dated her or seen her, but closely, I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. I’ll put it this way, when I mention the name of Earlene Roberts, do you associate it with anybody you know?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I used to go out quite a bit in my life, and I went with a number of people, and I was thinking that I dated one time a girl named Earlene, but I don’t remember her last name—that’s why I stopped and hesitated.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the person whose image came to your mind when I mentioned Earlene Roberts?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that Earlene Roberts, that I am talking about, is the sister of Bertha Cheek?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. If she’s her sister, I was trying to think if I ever met Bertha’s sister. I talked to her on the phone once. Bertha told me she had two sisters, I believe, wait a minute—Earlene Roberts is the one that lives in California, I believe, I believe it is, and Bertha went out to see her, maybe, when Bertha went out to California 4 or 5 days on some business, and then I was helping her remodel the home over there and painting then, and I think I had to call her and I think Earlene Roberts was the person I called in California, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. You called the person in California for Cheek?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. To talk to Bertha when she was out there.

Mr. HUBERT. That was when?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Maybe October—maybe November.

Mr. HUBERT. It was after you were negotiating with her?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, but I don’t remember the exact date. I knew that name sounded real familiar.

Mr. HUBERT. Bill DeMar, or have you heard of him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. You will have to associate it with something for me.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, he was an MC at Jack’s Carousel Club.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I don’t know that man. I saw him—he did a song or something while I was there, but I don’t know him, if that’s who it is—I don’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the story in the Press after Ruby shot Oswald that he said that he had seen him at the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I never knew of that—I never knew that.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by anybody of the Commission’s staff other than myself?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; the only people I have talked to is the Dallas Police Force and to two FBI agents, and I didn’t have any knowledge that you would talk to me until yesterday. They called long distance for me and he called me this morning—I bowl in a scratch league on Thursday night and he told me I had to be here at room 301 at 3 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we pushed it up a little bit for you.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, Mr. Sorrels called me this morning and asked me if I could make it earlier, and I said “I will leave on the flight 11:45 and I am booked definite at 5:15 going back and on a standby on this one here.”

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you can make the 5:15 now, because you are through right now.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it. I will get to see my wife for a while.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF ALICE REAVES NICHOLS

The testimony of Mrs. Alice Reaves Nichols was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that Mrs. Alice Reaves Nichols is present, and before we began anything, she walked into the room and she asked me if it would be possible to withhold her name from the press. I told her I would check. I have talked with Mr. Hubert of our office, to find out what the policy has been in the past, and he assured me that in the past we have, on the request of witnesses, not released the name to the press. I stated previously that all we have ever released is the name. We have never discussed and will not discuss with the press any testimony. However, we can’t give you any assurance that they won’t find out you were here. For example, there are newspaper reporters all over this building, and I don’t recognize them and perhaps you will, and perhaps they might recognize you or try to find out, if they don’t recognize you, who you are. Unfortunately, anything they can learn about what goes on is something that they want to print, so we can’t assure you that the name won’t go out, but we can assure you it won’t get out from anything we do. I am sorry we can’t give you any more protection than that.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I appreciate that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a special consultant to the General Counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

This Commission has been set up under a couple of governmental acts, one of which is an Executive order issued by President Johnson on November 30, 1963, and another one from the joint resolution of Congress. The effect of both of these acts has been to establish a Commission with a staff which has power to subpena witnesses and take testimony and conduct an investigation and prescribe various rules and procedures, and we are operating under these rules of procedure.

I might explain that under the rules of the Commission I have been specifically designated to come here and talk to you and take your deposition. Now the purpose of this deposition is to inquire into all of the facts and evaluate the facts and report back to President Johnson on the facts that have to do with the death of President Kennedy and the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. In your particular case, Mrs. Nichols, you have known Jack Ruby for many years, and you have been good enough to tell the FBI at some length what you knew about him. We want now to see if there is any more that can be added by this type of questioning. But we are also interested, I might add, in anything you might know that might have any significance to the whole investigation we are conducting.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you got a letter from the Commission asking you to appear?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I did. I had a telephone call first.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From Mr. Sorrels of the Secret Service?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; it wasn’t Mr. Sorrels. I believe the man said his name was Howell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Howlett?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you receive your letter?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I received a letter last Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I might also say, I don’t want to scare you by saying this, because we say it to everybody, that you are entitled under the rules of the Commission to appear here with an attorney if you so desire, and it is not unusual that people do that. But I see that you don’t have an attorney here, and I take it that you don’t desire one.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t think it was necessary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Most people do feel that way. It is an expense, for one thing.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I know several attorneys here, but I didn’t think it was necessary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I don’t think anything will come up in the course of your deposition that should make you feel you want an attorney. But I always want to make clear that at any time throughout your deposition you are free to stop the thing.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We try to be pretty nice, and I don’t think we will have too many difficulties. Let me ask you then if you have any questions about the deposition that is to be taken, before I ask you to raise your hand and be sworn? Anything that you think you would want to know?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t know of anything.

Mrs. GRIFFIN. All right, would you raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Alice Reaves Nichols.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Mrs. Nichols?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your maiden name?

Mrs. NICHOLS. My maiden name was Small: Alice Reaves Small.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live right now?

Mrs. NICHOLS. 8707 Redondo.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I hate to ask embarrassing questions of women, but could you tell us when you were born?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. February the 1st, 1915.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you lived in Dallas all your life?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I lived away from Dallas. I was born and raised here, but I lived away about 7 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. From 1937 to about 1944.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Southland Life Insurance Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I am a secretary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you work for anyone in particular?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I am secretary to the vice president and treasurer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is his name?

Mrs. NICHOLS. John E. Mangrum.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I want to ask you if you will hand me those two documents that you have there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to mark them and ask you some questions in connections with them. I want to hand you what I have marked as “Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, Alice R. Nichols’ Exhibit 5355.” This document consists of a number of pages starting with the No. 283, at the bottom, going through page 291.

It purports to be a copy of a report of an interview that you had with two FBI Agents, Mr. Albert Sayres and Mr. Paul Scott on November 25, 1963. I am going to hand it to you and ask you if you had a chance to read that over before the deposition started?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is there anything in there that you feel is not accurate, an accurate report of what you told the FBI on that day? I am not referring to whether or not you, after thinking about it, that you make some changes, but whether you noticed anything in there that does not accurately reflect what you said at that time, and if so, whether you want to make some changes in it?

Mrs. NICHOLS. There are a few things in here that I notice that are not exactly right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let me ask you if you would refer to the page on which the mistaken material appears, and if you would read the material that is mistaken and then we will talk about it.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I may have said it as it is here, but I know that I said that I didn’t think that Joe Bonds had an interest in the Vegas Club. But after thinking it over, I believe that he had for a short time an interest with Jack Ruby. But I believe that at this time that I talked with the FBI men, I had forgotten about that. But since thinking it over——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you pick out of there what page that appears on?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Let me put on my glasses. [Looks through document.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe I can find it for you.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I read it in there. It is in there some place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This would be on page 284. Let me read the language to you, and you can tell me if that is what you had reference to.

The paragraph at the top of the page which reads: “During the time she was associated with Jack Ruby, Ruby was friendly with one Joe Bond when he operated the club on West Commerce Street in Dallas, Texas. She did not believe that Ruby and Bond were ever associated in any business.”

Mrs. NICHOLS. That is it. Yes; that’s right, I believe for a short time that Joe Bond had an interest in the Vegas Club with Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now has something happened since this interview, the original interview that you had with the FBI that made you remember that or think that Joe did have some business interest in the Vegas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I have just thought over the questions that they asked me, and I recall that I believe that he did. I have been thinking it over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that he did have?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I think that Jack Ruby told me himself that Joe Bond had an interest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at here is, is there anything in particular that made you remember this?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; nothing in particular.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else in this interview of November 25, that you think ought to be changed or corrected?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me hand you what is marked for the purpose of identification as Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, Alice R. Nichols’ Exhibit 5356. This document consists of two pages, and it purports to be a copy of an interview that you had with another FBI Agent, Mr. Albert Sayres. I guess you talked with Sayers on the 25th, also, but this interview was on January 18, 1964. Have you had a chance to read that over?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections you would make in that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; that is correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I want to go back, and I am going to ask you some questions that are, some of which are biographical and some have to do with Jack Ruby, and some helter-skelter. When did your husband die?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was divorced in 1947, but he didn’t die until 1961.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do for a living?

Mrs. NICHOLS. While we were married, he was with Commercial Standard Insurance Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that here in Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do after your divorce?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I didn’t talk to him very often. He went into the insurance adjusting business, his own business for a while. Then I understand at the time of his death he was in the jewelry business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a Nichols’ Garage here in town. Is that any relationship to your husband?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; it is not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe also that the building that Jack had the Carousel Club in is owned by the Nichols’ family or by the Nichols’ estate.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I have heard that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that any relationship to your husband?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; there is no relationship.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to meet Jack Ruby?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I first saw him in a grocery store.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It was close to his Silver Spur nightclub, there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. South Ervay Street?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. I was in a grocery store.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living in that general area?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No. My mother lived close by.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you never met him before?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack come up and talk to you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t. I had my daughter with me, and later on when I was waiting for the bus to go home, he saw me standing on the corner and he came over and introduced himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About when was that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That was the early part of 1949. I don’t know the exact date.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think in your earlier interview with Agent Sayres on the 25th, you indicated that you thought you had met him in about 1948. Have you had a chance to think since then so that your feeling now is that it was 1949?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember. I started going with him the latter part of 1949, and I don’t remember the exact date. It was several months after I first saw him before I ever went with him. I would say it was 1948, winter of 1948 and 1949, somewhere in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there anything by which you place it? You mean that would have been late 1948, or early 1949?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember the month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular way that you place it at that period? Anything in your life that is significant that would place it in late 1948?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I can’t remember whether the weather was cold or what I had on; whether I was wearing a coat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean the particular year. Anything happen during the year 1948 that sticks out in your mind so that you could date your meeting Ruby in relationship to that event?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I can’t remember exactly when I first met him, first saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old is your daughter?

Mrs. NICHOLS. My daughter is 25.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So if it were 1948, she would have been about 9 years old?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you started to date Jack, how often did you see Jack?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It’s been so long ago. I think at first I probably saw him about once a week, and then later on in the year or so, I would say about twice a week, was about the most I ever saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of man that had any family interests or seemed to show any interest in settling down?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, in settling down?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; in getting married and raising a family and leading a conventional kind of married life?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He talked about it some for a period of time. Not all the time I was going with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe Jack in terms of his impressions and what he would look forward to and the kind of things he liked?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I think that Jack had a lot of drive. He was ambitious. He was always looking for some way to make money, some extra way to make money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything in particular that attracted you to Jack? Made Jack attractive to you? Any particular quality about him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He was very nice to me. He always treated me with respect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack, was he the kind of person that would unburden himself to you with his personal problems and background?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he talked to me about some of his problems. I don’t know that he talked to me about all of them, but he did discuss some of his problems with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of problems did he seem to have?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, his business problems. When he lost the Bob Wills Ranch House, he discussed that with me. He was very upset about that. He lost a lot of money in that deal. He had to go back to Chicago at that time, and he discussed his business deals with me—when he bought the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn’t seem to have any particular anxieties that he would discuss with you? No personal problems; family problems?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, when his two brothers split up their partnership in Chicago, he talked about that some to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you about that particular problem?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He went back to Chicago that time to try to help settle their differences.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if this was Earl and Sam?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What seemed to be the differences between the two?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t know whether it was—well, I guess it was just a financial, trying to work out. Sam sold out to Earl, and I think it was just trying to work out a financial settlement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate to you why Sam sold out to Earl? Why Sam left the business?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I thought it was just because they weren’t getting along together, the two brothers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you why they weren’t getting along?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw Jack then on a once-a-week or twice-a-week basis until about what, 1956 or 1957?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; and then after that I only saw him about once a week. I saw him about once a week until the latter part of 1959, about the latter part of November 1959.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you date that in 1959? What makes your memory remember it as the latter part of 1959 as opposed to 1958 or 1960?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, the reason why I remember that is, I think it was Christmastime, and we weren’t going together at Christmastime. I remember thinking that I wouldn’t buy him a Christmas present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he own the Carousel Club at that time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he hadn’t taken over the Carousel Club at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about any trips he took?

Mrs. NICHOLS. The only trips that I knew he took were a few trips to Chicago, and I knew that he went to Havana one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did he go to Havana?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Only once.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that was?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That was in 1959. It was September of 1959.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you——

Mrs. NICHOLS. The first part of September.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember it as that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, it seemed to me like it was around Labor Day, as I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how long Jack stayed in Havana?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not exactly; but I would say he was there from a week to 10 days.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why he went to Havana?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I thought it was a pleasure trip.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him off at the airport?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you who he was going to visit in Havana?

Mrs. NICHOLS. The only person he told me he was going to see in Havana was a man by the name of McWillie. I don’t know if Mr. Mac was his first name or whether McWillie was his last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever met McWillie?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When had you met him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I had seen him a few times. Jack had introduced me to him. I had seen him in the Vegas Club a few times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate to you what McWillie was doing in Havana?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He was managing the Tropicana Night Club, so I understood.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is this something that you actually remember yourself, or something you know from having read about these things in the newspaper?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I remember him telling me that he was at the Tropicana.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate whether he had any business interests with McWillie?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t indicate that he had any business interests.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you at any other time about Cuba or any interests he might have in Cuba?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that Jack talked to you about all of his enterprises; business activities?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I knew of nothing that he didn’t discuss with me. I don’t know of any activities that he didn’t discuss.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you feel Jack was the kind of person who might do things that he wouldn’t discuss with people?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Discuss with people?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; with other people who weren’t involved in that particular activity?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. He always talked freely to me, I thought. I never did feel that he—Jack was a big talker. He talks a lot; quite an extrovert.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to break up with Jack?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It was a gradual thing. We had no quarrel. We just quit. He quit calling me. We just quit going together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicated that Jack returned to Chicago from time to time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That was about August 1952.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place it in August?

Mrs. NICHOLS. As I recall, he lost Bob Wills Ranch House about April or May 1952, and he stayed here several months, and it was around August, I believe, when he returned to Chicago. And he stayed about 6 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say he lost it, did he go into bankruptcy? Go through some court proceedings or just sell it to somebody at a loss?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he took bankruptcy or not. I don’t remember. I don’t think he got anything. I don’t believe he sold it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he forced out of it by anybody?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I was under the impression that he just didn’t have the money to continue operating. He just had to leave it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of place was this Ranch House?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It was a western type.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Restaurant?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; nightclub.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Striptease shows?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Jack first go into the striptease business?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was not going with Jack when he got into the striptease business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the Silver Spur a strip joint?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Vegas Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I believe he did for a time have a strip, a few girls doing the strip at the Silver Spur, but that was a very short time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this while you were dating him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; but not—that was just for a few months. Maybe not even that long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to start to employ them there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. How did he what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did he start to employ them there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, his business was bad and he was just trying to find some way to build his business up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have entertainment at the Ranch House, Bob Wills Ranch House?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Have floor shows?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe he ever had a floor show. I never did see a floor show there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a band?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He had a band.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he sold liquor?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; well, they sold beer and set-ups.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that located?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That was on Corinth and Industrial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he operate that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I can’t remember just when he started that. It wasn’t but a few months. Probably, I would say about 6 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the Silver Spur in operation when the Ranch House was going?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when he sold the Ranch House, what did he do with the Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He continued to operate both of them. Wait, I beg your pardon. When he sold which one?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Ranch House?

Mrs. NICHOLS. When he sold the Ranch House?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what happened to the Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He still had the Silver Spur when he sold the Ranch House, but he sold the Silver Spur.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After he sold the Ranch House?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To whom did he sell the Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. A man by the name of Martin Gimbel or Gimpel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after he sold the Ranch House did he sell the Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It was very soon. I would say within—doesn’t seem to me like it—seems like it was about a month after he sold the Ranch House.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know—had you met Martin Gimpel?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you known Martin Gimpel before he bought the Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I met Martin Gimpel soon after I met Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Martin living in Dallas at that time?